PDA

View Full Version : Ideas For Improving AC's Combat System



Eternal Reward
04-10-2013, 03:01 AM
So a big complaint for AC games, generally post-AC1, is that there is no real challenge. It's too easy.

Which I agreed with. I find myself handicapping myself during combat just to have some fun with it. Now, don't get me wrong, there are some difficult fights. Once you get enough Jager's on you in AC3, it can get rather difficult.....assuming you don't use any of your gadgets for a insta-kill.

In ACR, which is the only other AC game I have, I found that fighting groups of Janissaries was actually pretty tough. Why? Because they had a powerful, unblockable attack, you could only hurt them by ranged weapons or countering, and they could take a lot of punishment before going down. The issue was there was generally only one Janissary per group of guards, and since the rest of the guards were laughably easy to kill, they were soon killed, assuming you didn't kill them right off the bat.

So in short, the problem with AC combat, in my opinion, is the insta-kills. In AC3 they improved on this by making a lot of enemies only able to be kill by hackin' n slashin' after you disarmed them, which took time and left you vulnerable, but it was hampered by the easy solution of simply using one of your many gadgets to get an insta-kill.

My solution? Take a game called Batman: Arkham City. Now, I don't want it to be a copy of Arkham City, but I do want it to take some nods from it.

One thing in BM: AC is that in a fight you don't often get the chance to insta-kill an enemy. There are combos and such, and various things you can do before the fight takes off, but normally it requires a bit of doing to take down a group of thugs. Contrast this with AC, where aside from the normally hackin' n slashin', most attacks give you an insta-kill. This makes the combat, while not always easy, not very difficult even in the hardest situations. Ubisoft tries to mix combat up with different enemies, who generally have some gimmick like grenades or a pistol that never really does much, but half the time they can be killed EXACTLY like the stock grunts, or only pose a danger rarely and in great numbers.

So what should they do? Well for one bring back the health mechanic, but make it so only the weakest of guards can be insta-killed and maybe not even them. Get rid of the gadget insta-kills, or make them limited to things like the pistol, which can only be used so many times before the long reload. And make the "super" guards a challenge. I loved the unblockable Janissary gun because it forced me to stop just countering. I had to go on the offensive, and sometimes I couldn't do it in time. It forced me to adapt, and it was a good idea.

For guards like that Brutes and Agiles, make Brutes have significantly more health, and make them require more counters to kill. Make Agiles uncounterable, but give us some way to "stun" them so we can get some hits in before they go back on the offensive. And make the "super" guards a mix of these things, making it something of a mini-boss. This does mean that there can't be a ton of these guys rushing at you at once, but it also makes them a much more satisfying fight at the end of a fort battle. And it actually gives incentive to be stealthy and take them out silently.

Punish bad placement in combat. Guards grabbing you from behind is cool, but I feel like there should be more unblockable attacks, or attacks that can mess you up if you don't react in time. Not entirely sure what they would be, though the firing line mechanic from AC3 is a good example of this.

And finally, please add a difficulty setting. Some players want more danger in combat and making a difficulty setting would appeal to a wider audience, since if its too hard they can tone it down. It also will allow more hardcore players to have an actual fight.

Fin.

Eternal Reward
04-10-2013, 03:02 AM
Any suggestions for a change to my system idea are welcomed.

ProletariatPleb
04-10-2013, 03:07 AM
But AC3's combat system is an imitation of Arkham(not as good but imitation nonetheless).

The first thing is they should remove the kill streaking BS. Let each enemy be handled separately.

Counter killing is too easy, make it so that you can counter but only counterkill when enemy's health is low.

Rugterwyper32
04-10-2013, 03:22 AM
But AC3's combat system is an imitation of Arkham(not as good but imitation nonetheless).

The first thing is they should remove the kill streaking BS. Let each enemy be handled separately.

Counter killing is too easy, make it so that you can counter but only counterkill when enemy's health is low.

Basically, going back to the AC1 basics with countering could work, I think. Counterkilling is instant with basic enemies, but it takes more with different types. I think that's one of the things that could work.
Also, combine killstreaks with the fear system from AC1 I think could work. Just like when using the hidden blade in AC1 it can only kill enemies in combat from counter or when they're afraid or mocking you, I think that should be how killstreaks work. Instead of just mindlessly button mashing, make it so you need timing and aiming at an enemy who is distracted so you can get that going, or just cause damage and drop the enemy down or have the enemy counter you if you mess up.

ProletariatPleb
04-10-2013, 03:25 AM
Basically, going back to the AC1 basics with countering could work, I think. Counterkilling is instant with basic enemies, but it takes more with different types. I think that's one of the things that could work.
Also, combine killstreaks with the fear system from AC1 I think could work. Just like when using the hidden blade in AC1 it can only kill enemies in combat from counter or when they're afraid or mocking you, I think that should be how killstreaks work. Instead of just mindlessly button mashing, make it so you need timing and aiming at an enemy who is distracted so you can get that going, or just cause damage and drop the enemy down or have the enemy counter you if you mess up.
Instead of killstreaks, AC1 had something I prefer, combo kills.

Rugterwyper32
04-10-2013, 03:29 AM
Instead of killstreaks, AC1 had something I prefer, combo kills.

I can agree with that. However, I don't see them going back to that anytime soon (if at all). Even though I'd really love the AC1 combat system to return with some more polish (specially when targeting enemies and the game recognizing you wanted a strong attack rather than a normal one)

ProletariatPleb
04-10-2013, 03:31 AM
I can agree with that. However, I don't see them going back to that anytime soon (if at all). Even though I'd really love the AC1 combat system to return with some more polish (specially when targeting enemies and the game recognizing you wanted a strong attack rather than a normal one)
I never had problems with that but yeah I'd really want an AC1 system, slightly modified. But not killstreaks please, moving from one enemy to another killing and killing instantly is Hollywood's job.

Eternal Reward
04-10-2013, 03:35 AM
I'll be able to respond more tomorrow.

montagemik
04-10-2013, 03:45 AM
Instead of killstreaks, AC1 had something I prefer, combo kills.

You mean the quick double tap attack combo after blocking ?
Swordplay became hack n slash only after AC1 .

I wouldn't mind if Edward automatically switched to an alternate fistfighting when his pistols were empty - but kept the empty pistols in his hand & used them as mini clubs or kosh .......until we manually switched to Fists ourselves.
Nothing major - but would add a little more variety to the fight & kill animations.

I agree , oversimplified killstreaks kill the challenge or real need for strategy .

ProletariatPleb
04-10-2013, 03:52 AM
You mean the quick double tap attack combo after blocking ?
Yes.


I wouldn't mind if Edward automatically switched to an alternate fistfighting when his pistols were empty - but kept the empty pistols in his hand & used them as mini clubs or kosh .......until we manually switched to Fists ourselves.
I would actually like that, I've always wanted to use sword and fist in combination, so he can slash with his sword and when it gets blocked he can just gut punch the enemy, cunning is his forte afterall.


Nothing major - but would add a little more variety to the fight & kill animations.
I agree , oversimplified killstreaks kill the challenge or real need for strategy .
Strategy? That's for sissies. Let's just go decimate a few regiments of redcoats like they are holding weapons for the first time.

I was playing AC1 after a long time a few days ago, had plenty of fun with combat and forgot a few thing, like how to break defence etc, but damn if I didn't have fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZqNUp8Z_ck

BATISTABUS
04-10-2013, 03:58 AM
Building off of AC3's system...

1. Make guards attack more often and grab you like in AC1.
2. Make weapons actually function differently and not only amount to aesthetic differences.
3. Give less HP and make health regenerate much more slowly.
4. A few more enemy archetypes.

CalgaryJay
04-10-2013, 04:01 AM
Just replayed AC2 and am now replaying ACB, probably been over 2 years for either. Combat has certainly gotten more difficult since those 2, I know its never been challenging, but its especially easy in these. I have zero fear or hesitation on rooftops, which is a change from 1 & 3, and even ACR to an extent. After playing these, its at least reminded me there's been improvements since then.

On a side note, I forgot how good both 2 and ACB were, aside from way too easy combat.

Gi1t
04-10-2013, 06:23 AM
I've always felt like the changes from AC1 to ACB were pretty negligible. It's always been pretty simple to kill any foe if that was all you wanted to do. Even with a Templar knight aearly on in AC1, you could take him out with a well-timed hidden blade counter. So I definitely agree with the OP. The instant-kills are one of the biggest problems.

I think it's not because there ARE instant kills, because those instant kills require almost no effort. One button press or one consumed item=instant death for an opponent. A system requiring some effort for an instant kill would go a long way toward making combat feel more rewarding. In Tales of Vesperia, you can do an instant kill if you hammer away at the the target's defenses with attacks that have a certain matching quality. All attacks have a primary direction in terms of how the force is directed: Up, Down, Forward. Each enemy has a certain amount of defense in each direction. (It varies depending on the enemy type how much of each one they can take.) Hit them hard enough to deplete their defense in a certain direction and you can take them out in one hit.

In short, if an enemy isn't very good at guarding a certain way, you can hammer through their defenses by using the right attacks and finish them instantly, but only through skilled use of the game mechanics.


As for enemy attacks, yeah, absolutely. I think they should have more different types of attacks that require different responses. Crushing, piercing, grappling, anti-evasive, etc. Those different types of attacks make combat not only more diverse, but also more versatile. IF you have solid relationships between your attacks, then you can have combinations that weren't specifically programmed into the game and that can really make combat come alive.

(EX: A certain attack wasn't designed to work against this type of enemy, but but because the attack you use works against the type of defense he's trying to use, you land a hit in a totally unscripted way and come up with a unique strategy of your own.)

Really, my biggest issue with AC has always been the weak enemy design. Just becuase an enemy has a lot of health or does a lot of damage or has a cheap immunity to something you've got up your sleeve doesn't make him interesting. I wanted to see enemies that make me think on my feet and encourage the use of different moves and strategies depending on their position and what other targets are around. (And, you know, it'd be nice to have something to make me actually consider running from a fight unless I was just dying to get my *** kicked. Would really reinvigorate the whole social stealth thing.)

AjinkyaParuleka
04-10-2013, 07:18 AM
Actually I needed to click that mouse for combo kills and other fast paced animations only in AC1 and AC3.In others,I just countered all of them,its damn too easy.Just make all the guards capable of defending themselves.attacking in unison(which they did in AC3),breaking defense like in AC1,grabbing you from the back like AC3,and please god please,make them use their tools more often,Janissaries were hard because of that,I'd prefer to get more Jaggers in a group,you know...10 of them can f*ck you up.

MUCHxz
04-10-2013, 08:43 AM
I agree with this.
AC3's combat isn't a challenge at all.

UrDeviant1
04-10-2013, 12:47 PM
Get rid of firing lines. They weren't difficult to overcome, they were just annoying. Give enemies more tools to deal with you. Our tools have evolved, why haven't the enemies? Other than blades and/or guns they really have nothing. Sure in AC3 they occasionally drop bombs, but I could sit down for a spot of tea before deciding to evade them. Having to use more than 1 attack button to take down advanced enemies. Maybe pressing 2-3 buttons in sequence while they attempt to counter you. Failure to press them in time and in the correct sequence will result in you getting countered. More strategic elements outside of just "kill", that require certain tools. More than 4 quick-equip slots and more weapons/tools that can be used in conjunction with eachother when carrying out kill-chain (AC3 had 4)

I honestly love what they did with AC3's combat and hope that it only improves.

Sushiglutton
04-10-2013, 01:07 PM
I love the Arkham-style combat. It's the perfect choice for AC as it can offer challenge for players of all skill levels without feeling frustrating for unexperienced players. The challenge is to create a varied flow which is entirely in the players hands and scales to his/her ambition. This is much better than the old school way of threatening with death as that punished the weaker players and got them stuck/frustrated.

I thought AC3 had many of the right ideas, but lacked complexity which meant the better players did not find enough to tinker with. What AC4 should do is to build on what AC3 had imo. I agree with TC that there should be more depth in the sense that certain moves can be chanined and most enemies can't be killed by just one attack. So for example move A gets you into state X. From state X you can choose between three moves that get you/your enemies into new states and so on. There should also be a greater variety of defensive moves (like the meatshield even though the implemetation could have been more distinct), enemies and it's important that each tool has its own strategic use. The complexity in Arkham City is good to aim for.

As for unblockable attacks I strongly disagree with that idea. The goal for the player in the Arkham type system is to maintain a varied flow. If the game do things to you that makes this impossible it means the system is broken imo. It's better to do like the Arkham games and add a variety of more complex blocks, like for example how you defend vs enemies armed with knives. This is also an elegant way to control the pacing of the combat, which Arkham does to great effect.

As for health I would tweak it so it doesn't regenerate at all in combat. As soon as you become anonymous it should regenerate immidiately. This would mean that if you fight large groups of enemies eventually you will have made enough misstakes so you need to run and hide. By not regenerating the health until you are hidden the entire chase would become thrilling.

ACfan443
04-10-2013, 01:08 PM
I was playing AC1 after a long time a few days ago, had plenty of fun with combat and forgot a few thing, like how to break defence etc, but damn if I didn't have fun.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WZqNUp8Z_ck

Bit extreme on the shading there..
Reminds me of borderlands.

MUCHxz
04-10-2013, 01:35 PM
AC1 up to Revelations had the best combat I feel.
AC3 was just to easy to deal with.
Jager = O, X , SQUARE, SQUARE, SQUARE, SQUARE
Guard = O, X, square square square

warner4692
04-10-2013, 02:00 PM
I still play AC1 frequently, and the smooth, addictive nature of the combat - coupled with the nature of the gameplay that has one using it so often - is one of the biggest reasons why. I think, when ACIII was announced, my biggest fear was the "90% a new game" comments. That's... rarely a good thing.

And it sure wasn't for ACIII, either. Forget that the combat is ridiculous-looking. It's too hard to USE, and when one gets used to it, it then becomes exactly what the original poster said: boring.

The combat could use an improvement by using the intuitive, pupeteer concept THAT THE SERIES ITSELF CAME UP WITH. And by returning to the timing-based nature. It's not supposed to be TOO hard, but when they started trying to make it "TOUGH N HARDKOR"... it just started to suck.

BATISTABUS
04-10-2013, 02:31 PM
AC1 up to Revelations had the best combat I feel.
AC3 was just to easy to deal with.
Jager = O, X , SQUARE, SQUARE, SQUARE, SQUARE
Guard = O, X, square square square
AC2 - Blindly counter everything.
ACB & ACR - Kill one enemy, get one hit kills infinitely.

Yeah...so much easier.

UrDeviant1
04-10-2013, 02:40 PM
Basically, all of the AC games have had ridiculously easy combat. Trying to make a case that any of them had any level of difficulty is like trying to decide what different types of oranges taste most like an orange.

I-Like-Pie45
04-10-2013, 02:44 PM
In AC5 they should just remove combat altogether.

UrDeviant1
04-10-2013, 02:52 PM
In AC5 they should just remove combat altogether.

Oh god no. We have seen their failed attempts at stealth. Imagine being caught because of the broken detection system and not being able to fight.

pacmanate
04-10-2013, 02:58 PM
AC:B had easy combat, but that doesn't mean it wasn't fun. It was the most fluid free flow combat streak system in any AC game. I just loved watching Ezio just glide between enemies in a killchain.

Anyway like I have said before, this is my idea inspired by Batman.

1. Four facebuttons are mapped to a tool (X,Y,B,A)
2. X is still normal attack, B is still counter.
3. To use a tool in combat and chain it with the killstreak, hold down the left trigger and press a facebutton.

This could also make combat more fun to execute and also open up a range of different tactics to enemies as some might be immune to some than others.

Gi1t
04-10-2013, 03:01 PM
I love the Arkham-style combat. It's the perfect choice for AC as it can offer challenge for players of all skill levels without feeling frustrating for unexperienced players. The challenge is to create a varied flow which is entirely in the players hands and scales to his/her ambition. This is much better than the old school way of threatening with death as that punished the weaker players and got them stuck/frustrated.

I thought AC3 had many of the right ideas, but lacked complexity which meant the better players did not find enough to tinker with. What AC4 should do is to build on what AC3 had imo. I agree with TC that there should be more depth in the sense that certain moves can be chanined and most enemies can't be killed by just one attack. So for example move A gets you into state X. From state X you can choose between three moves that get you/your enemies into new states and so on. There should also be a greater variety of defensive moves (like the meatshield even though the implemetation could have been more distinct), enemies and it's important that each tool has its own strategic use. The complexity in Arkham City is good to aim for.

As for unblockable attacks I strongly disagree with that idea. The goal for the player in the Arkham type system is to maintain a varied flow. If the game do things to you that makes this impossible it means the system is broken imo. It's better to do like the Arkham games and add a variety of more complex blocks, like for example how you defend vs enemies armed with knives. This is also an elegant way to control the pacing of the combat, which Arkham does to great effect.

As for health I would tweak it so it doesn't regenerate at all in combat. As soon as you become anonymous it should regenerate immidiately. This would mean that if you fight large groups of enemies eventually you will have made enough misstakes so you need to run and hide. By not regenerating the health until you are hidden the entire chase would become thrilling.

With unblockable and other advanced types of attacks, it's all about having multiple ways to defend and knowing which one to use. An unblockable attack would be one that you dodge. An attack that's too quick to dodge would be one that you'd block. (And by dodge, I do NOT mean just "get out of the way", I mean you perform a dodge action at a certain time to avoid an attack.) Then it really helps to have a third option. Barring any supernatural abilities, in AC you could have a second dodge focused around putting a lot mor distance between you and the enemy that's focused on escape rather than a counter-offensive. Having counters for certain actions like AC1 did with the counter-grab ability could be made to work with the general flow of combat. It's important to have functions that can be done quickly. If you have to start a certain action way earlier in order for it to work, where all the other functions happen on a moment-to-moment basis, that's when you're messing up the flow of combat. For example. if you have a group of enemies you're fighting and one of them starts an attack that takes a couple seconds but forces you to start your evasion or defense early, that throws off the rhythm of combat and becomes tedious. Even an attack with a delay shouldn't take too long to execute. A lot of games make that mistake.


Basically, all of the AC games have had ridiculously easy combat. Trying to make a case that any of them had any level of difficulty is like trying to decide what different types of oranges taste most like an orange.

Agreed. Glad I'm not the only one who though this.

I-Like-Pie45
04-10-2013, 03:17 PM
Oh god no. We have seen their failed attempts at stealth. Imagine being caught because of the broken detection system and not being able to fight.
Then remove stealth as well! :)

In fact, the best future for AC5 is a completely linear game with no freedom controlled entirely through dialogue trees and button prompts! :D

MUCHxz
04-10-2013, 03:24 PM
AC2 - Blindly counter everything.
ACB & ACR - Kill one enemy, get one hit kills infinitely.

Yeah...so much easier.

LOl..... but it wasn't as easy as AC3's combat....

Sushiglutton
04-10-2013, 04:04 PM
With unblockable and other advanced types of attacks, it's all about having multiple ways to defend and knowing which one to use. An unblockable attack would be one that you dodge. An attack that's too quick to dodge would be one that you'd block. (And by dodge, I do NOT mean just "get out of the way", I mean you perform a dodge action at a certain time to avoid an attack.) Then it really helps to have a third option. Barring any supernatural abilities, in AC you could have a second dodge focused around putting a lot mor distance between you and the enemy that's focused on escape rather than a counter-offensive. Having counters for certain actions like AC1 did with the counter-grab ability could be made to work with the general flow of combat. It's important to have functions that can be done quickly. If you have to start a certain action way earlier in order for it to work, where all the other functions happen on a moment-to-moment basis, that's when you're messing up the flow of combat. For example. if you have a group of enemies you're fighting and one of them starts an attack that takes a couple seconds but forces you to start your evasion or defense early, that throws off the rhythm of combat and becomes tedious. Even an attack with a delay shouldn't take too long to execute. A lot of games make that mistake.

Ah I see. I was wrong about what "unblockable" meant. I thought it meant that you took damage/broke the flow no matter what. But if it means that you just have to choose an alternative defensive move, such as evade, then it's totally fine obv :).

MasterAssasin84
04-10-2013, 04:14 PM
I certainly thought the combat system in AC3 was certainly a huge leap forward from the previous games and truth be told it was superior, i liked the fact that you had to change your tactic depending on what type of opponant you was facing, i think AC3 has planted the seed for future AC games to build on.

Eternal Reward
04-10-2013, 09:13 PM
Ah I see. I was wrong about what "unblockable" meant. I thought it meant that you took damage/broke the flow no matter what. But if it means that you just have to choose an alternative defensive move, such as evade, then it's totally fine obv :).

Yeah, I should have been more clear with that.

By unblockable I basically mean an attack you can't just click the block button to counter. It would be something that would either A) require you to go on the offensive and make the guard unable to do the attack B) dodge in some way different than the standard block.

Eternal Reward
04-10-2013, 09:15 PM
I certainly thought the combat system in AC3 was certainly a huge leap forward from the previous games and truth be told it was superior, i liked the fact that you had to change your tactic depending on what type of opponant you was facing, i think AC3 has planted the seed for future AC games to build on.

I hope so. I love Arkham City's combat, it has a lot of depth and various moves you can use that have a good risk/reward value to them. Like with guards that use knives in that game, you can just hold Y and move the stick back for a generic dodge, or you can tap Y every time he slices, and if you do it right you automatically knock him out. It's risky cause it can break up your combo, but very rewarding to pull off. And it feels like you accomplished something.

luckyto
04-10-2013, 09:34 PM
UrDeviant --- LOL --- that's kind of true.


I certainly thought the combat system in AC3 was certainly a huge leap forward from the previous games and truth be told it was superior, i liked the fact that you had to change your tactic depending on what type of opponant you was facing, i think AC3 has planted the seed for future AC games to build on.


I feel like AC3 was huge step forwards... back to AC1. Undoubtedly, AC1 is the best combat. It's only weakness was that enemies attacked one at a time and you could turtle without ever getting hit. If you tried to really play aggressively in AC1, it took skill and mastery to time combos for different weapons and roll into counter manoevres and guard breaks when there was an opening. You could easily survive in AC1, but the system had depth to go from novice to bad-***.

AC3 got rid of medicine. It got rid of armor. Those two things alone made the Ezio trilogy's combat mechanics easy, especially by the time you achieved your first few levels of experience. Brotherhood added chain killing, which again - made combat RIDICULOUSLY EASY; but AC3 made it harder to keep the chain going. AC3 also allows players to be attacked by multiple enemies at once. And the developers bred Batman's combat mechanics with AC to get this nice hybrid of moves and options for countering: human shields, double counters, counter grabs, etc. AC3 is a vast improvement.

The MOST IMPORTANT thing they could do now would be to get rid of enemy archetypes like they introduced in the Ezio trilogy. The guard types that have the same basic move and counter every time you fight them. Make all guards have the same combat styles, just change their skill level at each --- or really - the probability that you will see it. Just like AC1. Even basic guards could do grabs, it was just rare that you would see it. Either way, you always had to pay attention to what they guard was "doing" - and not who he was and counter accordingly.

Make this change. It's perfect. Make too many others, it will get bad again.

I'm OK with AC3 combat, it's fun. I'm more afraid of them breaking it than I want it changed...

shobhit7777777
04-10-2013, 11:38 PM
Let me tell you why Assassin's Creed combat has never been 'nailed'

Consider the Batman games....everyone's favs and possibly the blueprint for AC3's combat system. The reason why AC cannot emulate that 'feel' is because:


1. Batman Gets Rhythm: Batman's combat system is purely rhythm based and the entire system is designed around sending Batman (The player) into the "zone" where each strike is perfectly timed and the rewards are Batman bouncing from one henchman to another in a series of attacks escalating in sheer awesomeness

It gets fluidity, repetition, feedback and providing a power trip

Thanks to the overall simplicity of the system...it can then wrap around more layers onto this beautifully simple skeletal structure to grant more depth

Assassin's Creed on the other hand...since inception is focused on 'reactive' combat...wait, counter, stunning kill, repeat. The way the feedback loop is plugged into the system encourages counter-kills and waiting for the enemies to attack

This by its very definition is defensive and NOT fluid (more on fluidity later)

The later AC games tried to fix it by shoving in Kill streaks...which while awesome and did indeed help the pace of the combat...also made it ridiculously easy to just plough through a battalion of guards.
It was a case of a quick tweak to a system instead of a overall improvement

AC3 takes it a step further..but again ****s up in overall execution...although it certainly gets a lot of it right.



2. Batman is A Comic Book Character - Naturally, the movesets in Batman are more 'liberal' and hence the developers can take the action upto 11...that is why you don't really suspend your disbelief when Batman flies over 20 feet to dropkick a thug in the face.....

However

in AC you have to remain within the realistic constraints of the game world and tone. This restriction conflicts against the basic system of the 'Kill-streak' counter based combat in the games post AC1

How?

Because Kill streaks were added to infuse fluidity and aggression but due to the overall limited mobility of the character (real world parameters) you have a handicapped system. Killstreaks work when your character is mobile and fluid

While Connor is extremely agile..his overall "range" is limited by the fact that AC is semi-realistic and has certain rules of immersion to abide.....So a Kill-streak and Counter-Killing option will only add SO much to the combat system



3. Batman Blitzes his Beatdowns - This is an important aspect of the game since it basically determines not only the speed and aggression of the system but is intricately tied to the whole rhythmic flow of the combat

You'll notice that Batman's attacks are immediately interruptibe and that the attacks themselves are short and sweet thanks to lesser number of frames and also time dilation tricks

Batman is super speedy in delivering pain AND can immediately stop his attacks mid-way and change direction. This is what provides the player the ability to quickly counter and maintain the offensive giving the player to maintain flow

Assassin's Creed on the other hand....just take a look at how long does Connor take to actually finish a guy....the animations are FAR longer and far more elaborate. While I love the elaborate takedowns.....it does hamper the pace

Another thing to note is the amount of input control you actually have on Connor as opposed to Batman...While Batman does a lot of it automatically...the basics of striking, dodging and evading and even the takedowns are entirely under your control...everything from the tactile feel to the actual option of unleashing a move is entirely in your hands

Connor on the other hand...is far too automated....you counter and lose control for over 3-4 seconds of an elaborate kill animation..now what his does is that it immediately removes the player from actual control and elongates the exeprience...slowing pace down..and not in a good way.

Longer animation times and contol dispossession is just one of many problems plaguing the current system

ProletariatPleb
04-11-2013, 02:35 AM
Bit extreme on the shading there..
Reminds me of borderlands.
That was the point :P

Eternal Reward
04-11-2013, 02:43 AM
*long post*

So, you think in order to make AC's combat system more fluid and interesting, they have to give the player more control and speed up, or tone down the kill animations?

ProletariatPleb
04-11-2013, 02:55 AM
So, you think in order to make AC's combat system more fluid and interesting, they have to give the player more control and speed up, or tone down the kill animations?
Of course, shortening the animations is essential to almost any combat system that aims to be fluid, you can't have fluidity if your protag is spending 2 seconds repeatedly putting his sword through a guy because "it looks cool" AC has little to no player feedback.

Eternal Reward
04-11-2013, 02:59 AM
Of course, shortening the animations is essential to almost any combat system that aims to be fluid, you can't have fluidity if your protag is spending 2 seconds repeatedly putting his sword through a guy because "it looks cool" AC has little to no player feedback.

I also am kinda annoyed by how long it takes a "trained deadly killer" to take one guy down. In a real fight, if your a proper fighter, you should be dropping guys with one or two stabs. I don't mind a little bit of style added, but speed it the hell up.

ProletariatPleb
04-11-2013, 04:13 AM
CDPR is doing that with Witcher 3, combat animations will be equal in duration so that you can pull off combos.

AjinkyaParuleka
04-11-2013, 06:40 AM
You know that Ubi doesn't gives a damn what we think i.e. player feedback?If they did took it,then PC optimization should've been fixed by now.

ProletariatPleb
04-11-2013, 07:14 AM
I meant feedback in terms of combat, like we barely need to do anything, everything is automatic.

Sushiglutton
04-11-2013, 11:05 AM
Let me tell you why Assassin's Creed combat has never been 'nailed'

Consider the Batman games....everyone's favs and possibly the blueprint for AC3's combat system. The reason why AC cannot emulate that 'feel' is because:


1. Batman Gets Rhythm: Batman's combat system is purely rhythm based and the entire system is designed around sending Batman (The player) into the "zone" where each strike is perfectly timed and the rewards are Batman bouncing from one henchman to another in a series of attacks escalating in sheer awesomeness

It gets fluidity, repetition, feedback and providing a power trip

Thanks to the overall simplicity of the system...it can then wrap around more layers onto this beautifully simple skeletal structure to grant more depth

Assassin's Creed on the other hand...since inception is focused on 'reactive' combat...wait, counter, stunning kill, repeat. The way the feedback loop is plugged into the system encourages counter-kills and waiting for the enemies to attack

This by its very definition is defensive and NOT fluid (more on fluidity later)

The later AC games tried to fix it by shoving in Kill streaks...which while awesome and did indeed help the pace of the combat...also made it ridiculously easy to just plough through a battalion of guards.
It was a case of a quick tweak to a system instead of a overall improvement

AC3 takes it a step further..but again ****s up in overall execution...although it certainly gets a lot of it right.



2. Batman is A Comic Book Character - Naturally, the movesets in Batman are more 'liberal' and hence the developers can take the action upto 11...that is why you don't really suspend your disbelief when Batman flies over 20 feet to dropkick a thug in the face.....

However

in AC you have to remain within the realistic constraints of the game world and tone. This restriction conflicts against the basic system of the 'Kill-streak' counter based combat in the games post AC1

How?

Because Kill streaks were added to infuse fluidity and aggression but due to the overall limited mobility of the character (real world parameters) you have a handicapped system. Killstreaks work when your character is mobile and fluid

While Connor is extremely agile..his overall "range" is limited by the fact that AC is semi-realistic and has certain rules of immersion to abide.....So a Kill-streak and Counter-Killing option will only add SO much to the combat system



3. Batman Blitzes his Beatdowns - This is an important aspect of the game since it basically determines not only the speed and aggression of the system but is intricately tied to the whole rhythmic flow of the combat

You'll notice that Batman's attacks are immediately interruptibe and that the attacks themselves are short and sweet thanks to lesser number of frames and also time dilation tricks

Batman is super speedy in delivering pain AND can immediately stop his attacks mid-way and change direction. This is what provides the player the ability to quickly counter and maintain the offensive giving the player to maintain flow

Assassin's Creed on the other hand....just take a look at how long does Connor take to actually finish a guy....the animations are FAR longer and far more elaborate. While I love the elaborate takedowns.....it does hamper the pace

Another thing to note is the amount of input control you actually have on Connor as opposed to Batman...While Batman does a lot of it automatically...the basics of striking, dodging and evading and even the takedowns are entirely under your control...everything from the tactile feel to the actual option of unleashing a move is entirely in your hands

Connor on the other hand...is far too automated....you counter and lose control for over 3-4 seconds of an elaborate kill animation..now what his does is that it immediately removes the player from actual control and elongates the exeprience...slowing pace down..and not in a good way.

Longer animation times and contol dispossession is just one of many problems plaguing the current system


This is a great post :D! I wholeheartedly agree with everything. The combat designer for the Akham games have a much better understanding of pacing and as you say it creates this magical feeling of getting into the zone. The knife dodge (slowing down the pace) and the beatdown (increasing the pace) were two amazing additions that really took the rhythmic aspect of the system to new heights. And you are absolutely correct that AC has way too long animations that even take away camera control pulling you completely out of the rhythm.

It's correct that Ubi has a slightly tougher situation because of realism constraints. I still think they could have done a much better job though. It may be impossible to feel as smooth, but there are several other issues that have nothing to do with realism (such as overly long animations, lack of depth, lack of strategic gadget use etc)

SpiritMuse
04-11-2013, 03:44 PM
Please don't make me have to remember 26 different ways to block depending on whether the guard's sword is angled 2 degrees more to the left or the right. The whole thing is annoying enough as it is. Up until AC3, the slow attacks would always get me. You have to react so quickly in order to counter that I was always already pressing the wrong button before I'd had time to realise it was a slow attack, and then there was no time left to dodge. It was stupid.

I don't mind the fighting being "easy". It's annoying enough with the rising notoriety and the 16463 additionals guards joining in who just happened to be passing by...

shobhit7777777
04-11-2013, 05:49 PM
These are my suggestions in improving the combat....mind you this stems from my idea of what a good combat system is...hence very subjective.


1. Freedom of Movement: No locking on in combat....player character moves faster and can jump/evade/run while in Combat. AC3 does it well

2. Primary, Secondary and Gadgets - Quick Access: Following should be the button config -Right Hand - primary handheld weapons like hidden blade, axes, maces, swords etcLeft Hand - secondary weapons like pistols. throwing knives, daggers, crossbow , second hidden blade etc.Face button - gadgets like bombs, traps, rope-darts, poison darts, hidden gun etc.


3. Counters 2.0: The counters now need your input in the direction....if a guard is attacking from the right...tilt the stick right to counter. Direction matters now. No need to hold down the high profile button...simply attack with the primary or secondary weapon the moment the guard is about swing.AC3 did good in getting something like this in-game


4. Dodge and Evade Moves: The feet button should enable the player to make a combat dive-roll and position himself to gain an edge. It should also be used to allow the character to move larger distances in order to target NPCs which are farther away...you can have several moves like pirouettes and twists as well


5. Precision Counters: On engaging a counter...the time should dilate a bit (Like AC3) and then you can decide how to finish off the character - using primary or secondary weapons AND the number of strikes...so it can be one quick stab or multiple brutal hits like how in AC2-ACR you could hold people and punch/kick/headbutt themThis gives you more control over the counter Also a secondary attack on certain archetypes leads to your character disarming them....and then you can deliver the killing blow


6. Kill Streaks, Multi-Kills and Target Prioritizations: The new quick-access weapon configuration should enable the player to target and kill several NPCs simultaneouslyThe actions would stack and then be played out by the character in the correct sequence...as decided by you to deliver spectacular kills within seconds


On killing an NPC your killstreak should kick in and you should be able to carry out the multi-killsIt would play out something like this:

There are 5 NPCs - 1,2,3,4,5Your character attacks 1 with his primary weapon - a Sword

While you've attacked 1, you initiate an attack with your secondary weapon, a Tomahawk
And you target and attack 3,4,5 with a smoke bombYour character attacks 1 and kills him with the sword...within this time frame you've already targetted 2 and pressed the left hand button (Tomahawk)...your character quickly pounces on 2 as soon as 1 is killed and attacks him with the Tomahawk..since this is part of a killstreak it counts as an Insta-kill

You've also stacked the smoke bomb attack on 3,4,5 and your character quickly launches a smoke bomb immediately after dropping 2

The aim is to take advantage of the killstreak, target the deadliest NPCs, attack them with the right weapons and stack your kills smartly
I could've launched the smoke bomb first and then stacked the tomahawk attack buying me more time and distracting 3,4,5 as I finished off 2

This is basically you being 2 steps ahead of everyone and thinking about your next action....the time to stack these actions is as long as the standard kill animation lenght...so you would need to be quick

The weapons you attack with would matter and depend on AI archetypes and it might not result in an insta kill if you target a high tier AI immune to killstreaksit would also be interruptible via AI attacks and by the player himself...simply moving away would cancel all sequential attacks.


7. Quicker Animations: Animations need to be quicker...it takes too long for the character to kill someone...while I appreciate the elaborate kills, it does break up the pace. For this to work the animations need to be faster and easily interruptible.

Basically...a LOT of the concepts here are in the current system in some small way or the other...I just am trying to refine it to provide an experience which kinda like Batman's system BUT at its core its AC

luckyto
04-11-2013, 05:54 PM
This is a great post :D! I wholeheartedly agree with everything. The combat designer for the Akham games have a much better understanding of pacing and as you say it creates this magical feeling of getting into the zone. The knife dodge (slowing down the pace) and the beatdown (increasing the pace) were two amazing additions that really took the rhythmic aspect of the system to new heights. And you are absolutely correct that AC has way too long animations that even take away camera control pulling you completely out of the rhythm.

It's correct that Ubi has a slightly tougher situation because of realism constraints. I still think they could have done a much better job though. It may be impossible to feel as smooth, but there are several other issues that have nothing to do with realism (such as overly long animations, lack of depth, lack of strategic gadget use etc)


I second that on shobbit's post. That's one of the best breakdowns of AC's combat mechanics and restrictions that I've seen.

But I'll be honest, I like the longer animations and realism - and I'm OK with it.

One thing shobbit, fluidity is about action and reaction blending together. True what you said --- most people play AC1 "defensively" and in a reactive way. But the player isn't required to play that way, nor do I believe that it was intended to be played that way. You can play aggressively, and when you do, AC1's combat becomes a very fluid system. It takes some skill to master, but it certainly can be done. ACB - with chain killing - is admittedly the most fluid; but it is so easy as a result --- and there is no reactive element; it's just stacking kills which isn't really fluid. AC3's is fluid -- allowing you to attack and counter is a variety of ways. But without the guard break attack from AC1, it is almost purely reactive - allowing you very few options for offense against some opponents.

AC1 is the most fluid. I still believe the biggest problem with that game is that it allowed people to turtle. If more than one enemy attacked at once, then you would be forced to go on the offensive and master the fluidity that the combat system allows. Plus, it's the only one that doesn't have guard archetypes (enemies who do the same thing every time), forcing you always to stay on your toes and react or attack according to the situation

--------------------------------------

just saw your above post, and to me, that system is too far removed from AC. I enjoy AC1's and AC3's combat. I don't think I'd want to see as drastic a change as your describing. . particularly using the joystick to directionally counter rather than the high profile button. ALthough, I would be a fan of the foot button going into a dodge or roll... similiar to AC1 rather than a kick.

shobhit7777777
04-11-2013, 09:01 PM
just saw your above post, and to me, that system is too far removed from AC. I enjoy AC1's and AC3's combat. I don't think I'd want to see as drastic a change as your describing. . particularly using the joystick to directionally counter rather than the high profile button. ALthough, I would be a fan of the foot button going into a dodge or roll... similiar to AC1 rather than a kick.


Yeah man..I can understand why it would seem far too radical. If done right it should play like a more fluid, aggressive and fast paced version of AC3 combat.

I personally am just fine with the combat (I love ACRs most) but since a lot of people have been discussing it...I thought I would pitch in my 2 cents ;)

I'm glad you enjoyed the analysis :)

Sushiglutton
04-11-2013, 09:37 PM
These are my suggestions in improving the combat....mind you this stems from my idea of what a good combat system is...hence very subjective.


1. Freedom of Movement: No locking on in combat....player character moves faster and can jump/evade/run while in Combat. AC3 does it well

2. Primary, Secondary and Gadgets - Quick Access: Following should be the button config -Right Hand - primary handheld weapons like hidden blade, axes, maces, swords etcLeft Hand - secondary weapons like pistols. throwing knives, daggers, crossbow , second hidden blade etc.Face button - gadgets like bombs, traps, rope-darts, poison darts, hidden gun etc.


3. Counters 2.0: The counters now need your input in the direction....if a guard is attacking from the right...tilt the stick right to counter. Direction matters now. No need to hold down the high profile button...simply attack with the primary or secondary weapon the moment the guard is about swing.AC3 did good in getting something like this in-game


4. Dodge and Evade Moves: The feet button should enable the player to make a combat dive-roll and position himself to gain an edge. It should also be used to allow the character to move larger distances in order to target NPCs which are farther away...you can have several moves like pirouettes and twists as well


5. Precision Counters: On engaging a counter...the time should dilate a bit (Like AC3) and then you can decide how to finish off the character - using primary or secondary weapons AND the number of strikes...so it can be one quick stab or multiple brutal hits like how in AC2-ACR you could hold people and punch/kick/headbutt themThis gives you more control over the counter Also a secondary attack on certain archetypes leads to your character disarming them....and then you can deliver the killing blow


6. Kill Streaks, Multi-Kills and Target Prioritizations: The new quick-access weapon configuration should enable the player to target and kill several NPCs simultaneouslyThe actions would stack and then be played out by the character in the correct sequence...as decided by you to deliver spectacular kills within seconds


On killing an NPC your killstreak should kick in and you should be able to carry out the multi-killsIt would play out something like this:

There are 5 NPCs - 1,2,3,4,5Your character attacks 1 with his primary weapon - a Sword

While you've attacked 1, you initiate an attack with your secondary weapon, a Tomahawk
And you target and attack 3,4,5 with a smoke bombYour character attacks 1 and kills him with the sword...within this time frame you've already targetted 2 and pressed the left hand button (Tomahawk)...your character quickly pounces on 2 as soon as 1 is killed and attacks him with the Tomahawk..since this is part of a killstreak it counts as an Insta-kill

You've also stacked the smoke bomb attack on 3,4,5 and your character quickly launches a smoke bomb immediately after dropping 2

The aim is to take advantage of the killstreak, target the deadliest NPCs, attack them with the right weapons and stack your kills smartly
I could've launched the smoke bomb first and then stacked the tomahawk attack buying me more time and distracting 3,4,5 as I finished off 2

This is basically you being 2 steps ahead of everyone and thinking about your next action....the time to stack these actions is as long as the standard kill animation lenght...so you would need to be quick

The weapons you attack with would matter and depend on AI archetypes and it might not result in an insta kill if you target a high tier AI immune to killstreaksit would also be interruptible via AI attacks and by the player himself...simply moving away would cancel all sequential attacks.


7. Quicker Animations: Animations need to be quicker...it takes too long for the character to kill someone...while I appreciate the elaborate kills, it does break up the pace. For this to work the animations need to be faster and easily interruptible.

Basically...a LOT of the concepts here are in the current system in some small way or the other...I just am trying to refine it to provide an experience which kinda like Batman's system BUT at its core its AC




Not sure if I get this point, but basically you are saying no lock-on? Like in Arkham and AC3, rather than Occarina of Time/Dark Souls? If so I agree. I think no lock-on is better for fighting many weak enemies as opposed to fighting larger boss like creatures.
Not sure what you mean by "right hand" and "left hand"? You mean the shoulder buttons?
They used something like that in Metal Gear Revengeance. I have only played the demo, but it worked ok. I think controlling the direction might be a little too hardcore though.
Yeah they need to add some move for repositioning imo. The low vault Ezio did over the back of enemies was pretty cool, that could be an alternative as well. Perhaps directly after you break defense you can vault over an enemy like that?
That sounds awesome :D. Basically we can combine our own finishing after a counter.
Sounds interesting, but I can't really relate that system to any game I have played. So I would need to try it to make sure.
Agreed. The long kill animations are cool, but the cost is too steep in terms of pacing lost. Especially since they used a cinematic camera that was kind of disorienting.

Eternal Reward
04-11-2013, 09:43 PM
You know that Ubi doesn't gives a damn what we think i.e. player feedback?If they did took it,then PC optimization should've been fixed by now.

Aren't you mister cheery?

shobhit7777777
04-11-2013, 10:13 PM
Not sure if I get this point, but basically you are saying no lock-on? Like in Arkham and AC3, rather than Occarina of Time/Dark Souls? If so I agree. I think no lock-on is better for fighting many weak enemies as opposed to fighting larger boss like creatures.
Not sure what you mean by "right hand" and "left hand"? You mean the shoulder buttons?
They used something like that in Metal Gear Revengeance. I have only played the demo, but it worked ok. I think controlling the direction might be a little too hardcore though.
Yeah they need to add some move for repositioning imo. The low vault Ezio did over the back of enemies was pretty cool, that could be an alternative as well. Perhaps directly after you break defense you can vault over an enemy like that?
That sounds awesome :D. Basically we can combine our own finishing after a counter.
Sounds interesting, but I can't really relate that system to any game I have played. So I would need to try it to make sure.
Agreed. The long kill animations are cool, but the cost is too steep in terms of pacing lost. Especially since they used a cinematic camera that was kind of disorienting.




1. Yup..no lock on...like Arkham and AC3

2. The face buttons. X,Y,A,B or Circle, Triangle, Square etc. AC's controls correspond to the character's body...like a puppet. So X controls the right hand, and circle/B controls the left hand. Basically, you have two buttons to attack with two hands...each with a specific weapon

3. Not like Revengeance at all. Nope....you don't have to factor in the direction of the sword blow itself....but simply target the guard who is swinging. Right now.....if somebody attacks...regardless of direction...even if you aren't facing them..you can just counter them. This system would require you to select the person whom you want to counter by tilting the left stick towards them....just like how you would attack.

4. The Hook vault would be cool indeed.....Man..I really liked ACR's combat and moveset....it had the best of all worlds...the kill animations were fast!

5. Yes! :D. Its to give you more control, provide some more feedback and help you determine the length and brutality of the kill animation

6. I'll try to elaborate: You know how once you counter and kill a person or when you're in the middle of an attack animation..you can't really do much right? Well...in this short time you can target other NPCs and press the button to attack with your secondary weapon or your gadget.....your character then "remembers" these inputs...and as soon as the first animation is done...he moves on, automatically, to the next move
So if you're fast enough you can target up to 2 more NPCs and chain these multikills for a spectacular slaughterfest...IF you're smart about it since you have different enemy archetypes immune to certain attacks and the fact that you will be constantly under attack.

Try attacking a group of guards in AC3......now as you're mashing against one guard and Connor is in the process of burying his Tomahawk in that guy...select another guard (as Connor is still killing his first guy) and mash a button......nothing happens

With this system...Connor would've finished the first guy off (Or thanks to Counter 2.0..you would've gone for a quick kill) and then swiftly (thanks to the new dodge and evade moves and overall faster movement) pounced on the second guy...whom you'd targeted a few moments ago
this will be interruptible of course.

So...after initiating a kill-streak by killing your first NPC...you can target multiple enemies for death by various weapons and gadgets and have your Assassin swiftly dispatch them all in the order you chose...2 steps ahead ;)


7. Exactly. IMO At least give us the choice of using long kill anims or short kill anims....like in point number 5 of my post

silvermercy
04-11-2013, 10:42 PM
After playing the Dead Space series no combat is challenging enough for me (at least in terms of how you feel when you play a game). Also, unlike AC, instead of waiting for an enemy to attack you, in DS you are literally swarmed and surrounded by enemies. You get no breathing space at all. Especially if you play the game in hard mode. The fact they looked horrid-looking also helped. lol I'd also like the AC guards to scream in various ways at me while they attack, and from different angles. Would make combat more confusing and, thus, more challenging.

ACfan443
04-11-2013, 10:47 PM
I love this thread :D

AllThatJuice
04-12-2013, 02:30 AM
But AC3's combat system is an imitation of Arkham(not as good but imitation nonetheless).

The first thing is they should remove the kill streaking BS. Let each enemy be handled separately.

Counter killing is too easy, make it so that you can counter but only counterkill when enemy's health is low.

Basically you want the combat to go back to what it was in 1 and 2...but even slower?...*vomits*

AC3's combat is fluid, fast and feels good. Not much needs to change imo. All they need is a wider variation of enemies so that we cant kill streak a bunch of enemies, theyve already took steps in that direction, but it could still be improved upon. To make the combat a bit more difficult all they have to do is have enemies that require you to wear them down first, like in Arkham City with the armoured guys. Either that or make the window for countering, shorter, so that you really have to time your counters.

Oh and have enemies attack more frequently (at the same time), I think the double counter kill should maybe be reworked aswell, so when two (or more) enemies attack we have to actually dodge and evade. Oh and oneee more thing, we need Arkham City style "hot keys" for weapons/ tools, for example double tap the right trigger to throw a batarang (In AC it could be the pistol). This way all your different weapons easily incorporate into the combat, rather than having to pause gameplay just to switch weapons/ tools.

generallsj
04-12-2013, 06:15 AM
AC3's combat can be fluid but do not feels good. It has some bad in kill streak mechanic and still has some glitches about counter and animations. And compelling use of the rope darts for pull distant enemies is even mess up fluidity of the combat.

But anyway they look confirmed to make Edward as a character "fighting like a devil".

ProletariatPleb
04-12-2013, 06:17 AM
Basically you want the combat to go back to what it was in 1 and 2...but even slower?...*vomits*.
And..where exactly did I say slower? AC1 combat was hardly "slow" if you knew what you were doing, AC2's was ridiculously slow and tiring, the only weapon that could speed it up was the hidden blade and I always used it in open combat for that very reason.

Killstreaks for me are a no-no, I don't see how killing 1 person automatically makes you go insanely powerful therefore you can just kill everyone instantly. You see Arkham? You can hit people but they don't die(or in this cause go unconscious) instantly.

The difference is - Batman is a highly trained pro fighting prisoners. The Assassin(as it should be logically, not the BS marketing reason they use to create action games) is a highly trained individual whose forte is killing singular(and sometimes more than 1) targets, not decimating entire legions instantly. He should be an agile person but not a full on warrior that can take on hordes with no effort. Let's take Alta´r for example, he didn't wear heavy chainmail or plate armour. So while the guards are strong, Alta´r is faster. Connor in this case in an assassin, a trained individual and the guards are trained people as well. The combat needs to be tougher and more 'levelled' I can fight hordes in this game without taking any damage, it's just pressing the right buttons for the right enemy, but I don't do that because while i enjoyed combat in some games, in AC3 I find it to be a chore, a tedious thing you have to do which has artificial difficulty and mostly just flashy animations.

pacmanate
04-12-2013, 10:29 AM
AC1's combat was slow, you just waited to counter and sword strikes were slow and clunky.

I just want them to just steal Arkhams style of facebuttons and tools.

jayjay275
04-12-2013, 10:37 AM
AC1's combat was slow, you just waited to counter and sword strikes were slow and clunky.

I just want them to just steal Arkhams style of facebuttons and tools.

I think that they should either stick with AC3's combat, which isn't the best in my opinion, as it is too easy, or they should go back to the combat of AC1 & 2.

ProletariatPleb
04-12-2013, 10:43 AM
AC1's combat was slow, you just waited to counter and sword strikes were slow and clunky.

I just want them to just steal Arkhams style of facebuttons and tools.
You mean YOU waited to counter. I specifically said, IF you knew what you were doing.

ACfan443
04-12-2013, 10:52 AM
AC1's combat was slow, you just waited to counter and sword strikes were slow and clunky.

I just want them to just steal Arkhams style of facebuttons and tools.

Being on the defence will always make combat slow, if you actually utilised a combination of attacks and counters, you can get a fast paced combat. Look at the video posted a few pages back.

ProletariatPleb
04-12-2013, 12:41 PM
Being on the defence will always make combat slow, if you actually utilised a combination of attacks and counters, you can get a fast paced combat. Look at the video posted a few pages back.
Yeah, I was a defensive moron when I started AC1, then I learnt the rewards of going offensive. And it's even faster if you defence break, I forgot how otherwise my video would be even shorter...and faster, I just focused on trying to get combos in it.

Legendz54
04-12-2013, 01:03 PM
Meh ..AC's combat is fine to me, just make it more fluid and less choppy. We can kill enemies with 1 bullet in other games...

dogziler
04-12-2013, 01:58 PM
make guarding not invincible. that you could break guards, but the guards cant is something disappointing. but they should do a different animation, like hook their sword around yours. then, killstreaks. they just don't work. you feel BA but then again, too easy. make insta kills contextual, like the guard is on the ground, and like fable, you stick your sword in 'im. then, make moves locked, like fable, until you take a class or are taught by a mentor, later in the game. like in ac2, how you didn't know how to do moves until you trained with them, but make it continuous, so you don't learn all the moves instantly. then, gadgets should not instakill, but like BATMAN:arkham city, they hamper your opponents by making them drop weapons, or stunning them. then, dodging should be brought back, and then finally, quikfire gadgets, like in batman: arkham city. press the weapon selection and another button quikfires a gadget. taking alot from batman, but thats the way it goes. then, maybe a stamina bar, that would make for a better combat, climbing, and running real life similarity.

dogziler
04-12-2013, 02:02 PM
I love this thread :D

http://thumbs.myopera.com/sz/colx/minigamer1896/albums/576508/I%20love%20this%20thread%20SO%20MUCH.jpg
like this?

pacmanate
04-12-2013, 02:05 PM
You mean YOU waited to counter. I specifically said, IF you knew what you were doing.


Being on the defence will always make combat slow, if you actually utilised a combination of attacks and counters, you can get a fast paced combat. Look at the video posted a few pages back.

Erm yes I do this too Im not ****ing 5

Sushiglutton
04-12-2013, 03:04 PM
6. I'll try to elaborate: You know how once you counter and kill a person or when you're in the middle of an attack animation..you can't really do much right? Well...in this short time you can target other NPCs and press the button to attack with your secondary weapon or your gadget.....your character then "remembers" these inputs...and as soon as the first animation is done...he moves on, automatically, to the next move
So if you're fast enough you can target up to 2 more NPCs and chain these multikills for a spectacular slaughterfest...IF you're smart about it since you have different enemy archetypes immune to certain attacks and the fact that you will be constantly under attack.

Try attacking a group of guards in AC3......now as you're mashing against one guard and Connor is in the process of burying his Tomahawk in that guy...select another guard (as Connor is still killing his first guy) and mash a button......nothing happens

With this system...Connor would've finished the first guy off (Or thanks to Counter 2.0..you would've gone for a quick kill) and then swiftly (thanks to the new dodge and evade moves and overall faster movement) pounced on the second guy...whom you'd targeted a few moments ago
this will be interruptible of course.

So...after initiating a kill-streak by killing your first NPC...you can target multiple enemies for death by various weapons and gadgets and have your Assassin swiftly dispatch them all in the order you chose...2 steps ahead ;)


I think I get it now :). It's a bit like Mark & Execute in a sense. But you have more options of what moves to stack. Sounds awesome, you should patent it!

warner4692
04-15-2013, 09:57 PM
Oh god no. We have seen their failed attempts at stealth. Imagine being caught because of the broken detection system and not being able to fight.

Especially in recent games... And with this 100% synch nonsense.

monster_rambo
04-16-2013, 08:06 AM
replace it with FPS :p

montagemik
04-16-2013, 10:28 AM
replace it with FPS :p

LOL Yeah , make it a FPS , that should cure the series fatigue Monster , 'Assassins Duty Battlefield- Spec Ops' :rolleyes:

monster_rambo
04-16-2013, 10:31 AM
LOL Yeah , make it a FPS , that should cure the series fatigue Monster , 'Assassins Duty Battlefield- Spec Ops' :rolleyes:

^Hey if Ubisoft wants mass appeal then hey, why not give the gamers what they want? :)

montagemik
04-16-2013, 10:43 AM
Basically you want the combat to go back to what it was in 1 and 2...but even slower?...*vomits*

AC3's combat is fluid, fast and feels good. Not much needs to change imo. All they need is a wider variation of enemies so that we cant kill streak a bunch of enemies, theyve already took steps in that direction, but it could still be improved upon. To make the combat a bit more difficult all they have to do is have enemies that require you to wear them down first, like in Arkham City with the armoured guys. Either that or make the window for countering, shorter, so that you really have to time your counters.

Oh and have enemies attack more frequently (at the same time), I think the double counter kill should maybe be reworked aswell, so when two (or more) enemies attack we have to actually dodge and evade. Oh and oneee more thing, we need Arkham City style "hot keys" for weapons/ tools, for example double tap the right trigger to throw a batarang (In AC it could be the pistol). This way all your different weapons easily incorporate into the combat, rather than having to pause gameplay just to switch weapons/ tools.


So , basically ..................Replace AC combat with Arkham city combat .
Dear Ubisoft - Combat is currently very easy against multiple enemies ...................Please make it as easy as Batman instead , so i can have a bigger arsenal of combat features easily at hand.
(wearing down enemies - wasn't that in AC1 ? ................nevermind , we'll use Batman's features again )

montagemik
04-16-2013, 10:47 AM
^Hey if Ubisoft wants mass appeal then hey, why not give the gamers what they want? :)

Because you're against repetitive gameplay features with no real innovation between titles dragged on for years as a braindead cash-cow ............ Ironic FPS is your chosen solution. :rolleyes:

Sushiglutton
04-16-2013, 12:00 PM
So , basically ..................Replace AC combat with Arkham city combat .
Dear Ubisoft - Combat is currently very easy against multiple enemies ...................Please make it as easy as Batman instead , so i can have a bigger arsenal of combat features easily at hand.
(wearing down enemies - wasn't that in AC1 ? ................nevermind , we'll use Batman's features again )

Not what he said at all. He asked for two specific features from Arkham (wear enemies down and hotkeys). There are an endless amount of ways to design a system that incorporates them. I know you just wanted to be a condescending pig and pick a fight, like you always do, so I probably shouldn't bother :nonchalance:. But for the record your interpretation of AllThatJuice's post is wrong.

montagemik
04-16-2013, 12:23 PM
Not what he said at all. He asked for two specific features from Arkham (wear enemies down and hotkeys). There are an endless amount of ways to design a system that incorporates them. I know you just wanted to be a condescending pig and pick a fight, like you always do, so I probably shouldn't bother :nonchalance:. But for the record your interpretation of AllThatJuice's post is wrong.

No you probably shouldn't have bothered - (but did anyway)

Almost every change he suggested is in Arkham ..................... It's a little more than hotkeys.
Improve AC Combat = Make it like Arkham

Sushiglutton
04-16-2013, 12:43 PM
No you probably shouldn't have bothered - (but did anyway)

Almost every change he suggested is in Arkham ..................... It's a little more than hotkeys.
Improve AC Combat = Make it like Arkham

All you ever do, day in and day out, on this board is trying to be "smart" and "own people" by using a condecending/hostile tone and talk down to other posters. Kind of tedious after a while. Don't know why the mods allow you to keep abusing Ubisoft's customers, but whatever. I guess your just a grumpy kind of guy.

He suggested two things: wear down enemies and hotkeys. There is still room to design enemies in almost any way you want and have whatever gadgets/tools you want. You can still build the system around counters as AC does.

montagemik
04-16-2013, 12:52 PM
All you ever do, day in and day out, on this board is trying to be "smart" and "own people" by using a condecending/hostile tone and talk down to other posters. Kind of tedious after a while. Don't know why the mods allow you to keep abusing Ubisoft's customers, but whatever. I guess your just a grumpy kind of guy.

He suggested two things: wear down enemies and hotkeys. There is still room to design enemies in almost any way you want and have whatever gadgets/tools you want. You can still build the system around counters as AC does.

IF I BOTHER YOU = Hit report / Ignore OR keep it in Private messages . :nonchalance:

If my statement is incorrect about 'allthatjuice's' post .....................Please enlighten me to which features / improvements HE suggested that aren't in Arkham Batman games .

Sushiglutton
04-16-2013, 01:04 PM
IF I BOTHER YOU = Hit report / Ignore OR keep it in Private messages . :nonchalance:

If my statement is incorrect about 'allthatjuice's' post .....................Please enlighten me to which features / improvements HE suggested that aren't in Arkham Batman games .

I don't want to have a conversation with a guy like you on PM. I don't see the point in reporting since the mods obv think your posts are in order. Ignore is an option, may try that.

You claimed that he suggested to (basically): "Replace AC combat with Arkham city combat", but he only suggested that Ubi implemented two specific features. Yes, all features he suggested are in Arkham City, but that wasn't your initial claim. You claimed something much stronger namely that he wanted to replace AC's combat system with the one in Arkham City. That is simply not what he said.

montagemik
04-16-2013, 01:33 PM
I don't want to have a conversation with a guy like you on PM. I don't see the point in reporting since the mods obv think your posts are in order. Ignore is an option, may try that.

You claimed that he suggested to (basically): "Replace AC combat with Arkham city combat", but he only suggested that Ubi implemented two specific features. Yes, all features he suggested are in Arkham City, but that wasn't your initial claim. You claimed something much stronger namely that he wanted to replace AC's combat system with the one in Arkham City. That is simply not what he said.

LOL , You don't want a conversation for any reason - Pointing out your dislike for me on a public board was your main intention = ' this guy's insulting - so i'll insult him & point out how offensive he is.'


ON TOPIC
So , All his 'improvements' were from Arkham games ..................... So with His suggested 'improvements' added to AC combat , What exactly makes it NOT Arkham combat style ??
AC's basic Guard ?
AC's basic attack combos ?


By adding those Arkham features to AC combat (more than 2 features he suggested BTW ) "hotkeys - shorter counter range - wear down enemies - more enemies attack at once - evade & dodge counters " (enemy archetypes are similar in both games anyway)
We're left with an almost carbon copy of Arkham combat , So i stand by my comment = basically replace AC combat with Arkham's

SolidSage
04-16-2013, 05:44 PM
AC3's combat is very good. I think it strikes the best balance of aggression, fluid fun and AI, to date in the series.
I would like to see an increase in the amount of AI types and density. In general I try to get full notoriety and see how long I can survive. Unfortunately it has got to the point where I can roam New York freely and they can't kick me out (desynch) very often at all now. I don't know that I want that option for mastery to be lost though, so I think there needs to be a different way of expanding the combat fun, rather than just upping the difficulty to the point where you can't trash an entire squad of guards quickly.
Maybe another level (or 2) of AI beyond the Jaegers, like getting SIX (or 7) stars in GTA :)
Maybe some ultimate Templars, (AC1) but actually have them BE ULTIMATE this time unlike the Papal guards (? forgot the name) in Brotherhood...or the uninspired combat stalling methods employed by the Janissarys in Revelations.

Oh yeah, the best way to improve on AC3 combat right now is to add a PLAYER 2 to the SP game and appropriate AI density.
And then, in future titles Ubi can design coop/tandem combat moves.

@Shobhit
I generally agree with you about the differences between AC and BAC, especially regarding realism and pacing. But personally, for me, those are the things that make AC's combat more engaging. While it is nice to be jamming in button combos to infinity and watching Bats bouncing all over the screen, there is something much more appealing to me with AC's visceral vitality. The realism of the movements in both speed and design really appeal to me.
Connor's empty hand beat downs are as thrilling, if not more so to me, than Batman's. The in depth and graphic animations are superb.
I have plenty of time for BAC combat and enjoy it immensely but AC3 has the best combat to date IMO.

That said, the general requirement for speedy command inputs does make BAC combat more challenging over the duration. You don't really get to relax when in the mix. AC3 on the other hand, allows for player designed pacing. I actually enjoy the slower pacing more, the timing required is a little different and there is a flow to it that I enjoy. You can select weapons that allow for faster interaction or slower ones like the two handed war club (my personal favorite because I really love dusting a few with it, then chucking it in someones face and switching up gears as Connor automatically goes to his one handed weapon [assassins tomahawk] even when it's not assigned to the d-pad). The point I was working towards though is that AC combat can get a little dull after you have mastered the combos and understand the best methods of engaging the AI variety.
A deeper roster of AI would lead to great improvement IMO. I would keep Connor's combat style, maybe adding some things but certainly not taking anything away (it all was too good), keep his free running (ground running is so much more engaging now, just need MORE fences) and tree running, and just add many more AI classes.

Or, as someone mentioned earlier, instead of assigning combat styles to specific guard types, allow for AI to act in a variety of different ways, so the player has to observe the actions and respond to them instead of getting the clue from the AI type.

Regardless, the combat is well designed, I love it with the prompts OFF and the HUD clear. It's a little sad now though that the Jaegers are easier to kill but at least they have a better balance than the Janissary's (who I had to just resort to running up behind and killing quickly to kick a fight off, rather than getting into a blocking loop for days).
I think I miss the VR room. AC would do well to borrow that from BAC, (challenge rooms or whatever) and give us a nice backdrop for an endless stream of bad guys to create carnage with, Ong Bak style.

Edward has a lot of potential (4 pistols), I would be very disappointed to see a regression in the combat back to 2 thru R. Not that I didn't enjoy them but I truly believe that 3 took it up a notch. 1 had good combat from a challenge/difficulty view, but I personally think AC3's is the most rewarding to date.

The biggest issue with AC combat has always been balance. I think AC3 struck a fine balance between badazzery and realism while keeping the combat engaging, fun and not so difficult that avoiding it was the better option. AC1's balance was great too, but after it, upgrades didn't get as nicely tuned so there were glaring issues that kind of interrupted the flow of the action.

ToniTorsi
04-16-2013, 09:44 PM
Killstreak is what makes the combat substantially easy.

They should only activate when:

(A) Health bar is low
(B) You have successfully taken away an enemy's weapon, leaving him defenseless
(C) When you have stunned him with a kick or thrown him against something. Leaving him open for a kill

But I just hope to god, Ubisoft does something about Killstreaks for AC4. PLEASE.

It takes away any real challenge and spoon feeds the player astonishingly.

SpiritMuse
04-16-2013, 10:21 PM
Killstreak is what makes the combat substantially easy.

They should only activate when:

(A) Health bar is low
(B) You have successfully taken away an enemy's weapon, leaving him defenseless
(C) When you have stunned him with a kick or thrown him against something. Leaving him open for a kill

But I just hope to god, Ubisoft does something about Killstreaks for AC4. PLEASE.

It takes away any real challenge and spoon feeds the player astonishingly.

Well... you could also choose to just not use them. That would pretty much have the same effect as removing them from the game altogether. Except, they would still be available to use for those of us who do like them. Personally I find them extremely handy, because I'm not that good at fighting so I'm all for everything that makes it easier for me.

AllThatJuice
04-16-2013, 10:37 PM
So , basically ..................Replace AC combat with Arkham city combat .
Dear Ubisoft - Combat is currently very easy against multiple enemies ...................Please make it as easy as Batman instead , so i can have a bigger arsenal of combat features easily at hand.
(wearing down enemies - wasn't that in AC1 ? ................nevermind , we'll use Batman's features again )

shush little baby dont you cry.

fyi I referenced Arkham City because its the closest thing to compare AC's combat to and also because Arkham City's combat is done so well. Also, Arkham's combat is acutally pretty difficult when you play it on any other difficulty besides easy and normal. Implementing hotkeys to AC's combat would be one of the smartest moves Ubi could make. Unless you enjoy interrupting gameplay to switch weapons.

dxsxhxcx
04-16-2013, 11:00 PM
Killstreak is what makes the combat substantially easy.

They should only activate when:

(A) Health bar is low
(B) You have successfully taken away an enemy's weapon, leaving him defenseless
(C) When you have stunned him with a kick or thrown him against something. Leaving him open for a kill

But I just hope to god, Ubisoft does something about Killstreaks for AC4. PLEASE.

It takes away any real challenge and spoon feeds the player astonishingly.


these are good ideas, I think they should also make the player only have success in 1HKO someone during a "killstreak" when the enemy's health reach a certain percentage, example (percentages may be different, this is just an example):

the enemy has 90% of health, the player will have 10% chance to 1HKO this enemy;
80% health, 20% chance of 1HKO;
etc...

if the player fail in 1HKO the enemy, the enemy will only lose little health or dodge/parry the attack.

SolidSage
04-16-2013, 11:04 PM
Kill streaks should be tied to different weapons so players can get the experience they like.

I love kill streaks, not because they make the game easier but because I just really like embracing mass carnage. Chewing through everything they can throw at me like a BA with Alien DNA.

montagemik
04-16-2013, 11:17 PM
shush little baby dont you cry.

fyi I referenced Arkham City because its the closest thing to compare AC's combat to and also because Arkham City's combat is done so well. Also, Arkham's combat is acutally pretty difficult when you play it on any other difficulty besides easy and normal. Implementing hotkeys to AC's combat would be one of the smartest moves Ubi could make. Unless you enjoy interrupting gameplay to switch weapons.

LOL - Oh did somebody disagree with you ? ....................... By adding those Arkham features to AC combat "hotkeys - shorter counter range - wear down enemies - more enemies attack at once - evade & dodge counters " (enemy archetypes are similar in both games anyway)
We're left with an almost carbon copy of Arkham combat , So i stand by my comment = basically replace AC combat with Arkham's .

Sorry but i buy the Batman games for Batman combat , Not AC.

Repeating your features & reasons doesn't change my opinion the more you keep saying it .

Eternal Reward
04-16-2013, 11:43 PM
So , basically ..................Replace AC combat with Arkham city combat .
Dear Ubisoft - Combat is currently very easy against multiple enemies ...................Please make it as easy as Batman instead , so i can have a bigger arsenal of combat features easily at hand.
(wearing down enemies - wasn't that in AC1 ? ................nevermind , we'll use Batman's features again )

The concept for Arkham City combat is brilliant, allowing a lot of different enemy types, increased challenge, and LOTs of variety in fights. All the something like fifteen gadgets in the game have a use. In AC, I MIGHT use one or two if I feel like making the game even easier.

But it shouldn't be exactly like BM: AC. It should be different, in its own AC way.

AllThatJuice
04-16-2013, 11:50 PM
@montagemik

If I wanted ACs combat to be like Batman, then I'd say I want Edward to backflip across the screen and hit enemies across the street from him, like how Batman does, or that I want special moves. But no. All I said was that it needs hotkeys, because at the moment the current weapon wheel we have is horrible, it breaks up gameplay and encourages players not to have fun with the different weapons they have. Hotkeys is a simple and effective way to solve that. Or we could just have a weapon wheel that doesnt pause gameplay. Either one works I guess.

So you're saying if AC4 had more enemies that attacked at once, then thats copying Batman?...Yup that makes sense. Somehow, evolving and changing the combat for the better is copying Batman. Well that makes sense coming from you, seeing as you want the combat to take 4 steps backwards and go back to what it was in AC1. You're so wrapped up in wanting difficult combat (AC1 combat has the easiest combat btw, 1 hit kill with hidden blade, say no more) that you're forgetting about the fun aspect of it. As long as the combats fun, who cares? Its like Far Cry 3 (yes its an fps, blah blah blah but the point is still valid), you as the player has so much power, that it isnt really that difficult, but it is very very fun. Its also similar to TTOKW, with the animal powers. They may be a bit overpowered, but they make the game so much more fun.

generallsj
04-19-2013, 12:43 PM
http://youtu.be/rYLF4B_jquY

AC3 combat is crappy and boring and hugely flawed. They just have to redesign its many elements above all after reset its direction first.

montagemik
04-19-2013, 01:48 PM
@montagemik

If I wanted ACs combat to be like Batman, then I'd say I want Edward to backflip across the screen and hit enemies across the street from him, like how Batman does, or that I want special moves. But no. All I said was that it needs hotkeys, because at the moment the current weapon wheel we have is horrible, it breaks up gameplay and encourages players not to have fun with the different weapons they have. Hotkeys is a simple and effective way to solve that. Or we could just have a weapon wheel that doesnt pause gameplay. Either one works I guess.

So you're saying if AC4 had more enemies that attacked at once, then thats copying Batman?...Yup that makes sense. Somehow, evolving and changing the combat for the better is copying Batman. Well that makes sense coming from you, seeing as you want the combat to take 4 steps backwards and go back to what it was in AC1. You're so wrapped up in wanting difficult combat (AC1 combat has the easiest combat btw, 1 hit kill with hidden blade, say no more) that you're forgetting about the fun aspect of it. As long as the combats fun, who cares? Its like Far Cry 3 (yes its an fps, blah blah blah but the point is still valid), you as the player has so much power, that it isnt really that difficult, but it is very very fun. Its also similar to TTOKW, with the animal powers. They may be a bit overpowered, but they make the game so much more fun.

No bud - it's simple to understand what i wrote .............

"hotkeys - shorter counter range - wear down enemies - more enemies attack at once - evade & dodge counters " (enemy archetypes are similar in both games anyway)
We're left with an almost carbon copy of Arkham combat

I'd prefer improvements to AC Combat to actually BE AC Combat ......... not copy paste features from another game .
( we already have every ability taken from other games - Any more copy / pasting of other game features leaves little room actual AC content & original innovation . )

SolidSage
04-19-2013, 07:34 PM
http://youtu.be/rYLF4B_jquY

AC3 combat is crappy and boring and hugely flawed. They just have to redesign its many elements above all after reset its direction first.
No, AC3 combat is fun, the combat shown in this video WAS boring though.
Likely due to the fact that the player only bothered to use two buttons the entire time. Combo combo combo counter, repeat. Wowzers, good work. Sorry, I think there was one meat shield in there.
Didn't anyone see a guard break or a throw or push or any kind of personal style whatsoever?

He/she never bothered to change the primary weapon even once, didn't incorporate his projectile weapon (why a bow and arrow in city combat? come on). Never bothered to go unarmed, didn't even start the fight off with a good kill on the run.


I mean, if a Player is going to PLAY in a boring way, then yeah, combat is going to BE boring.

warner4692
04-19-2013, 09:25 PM
No, AC3 combat is fun, the combat shown in this video WAS boring though.
Likely due to the fact that the player only bothered to use two buttons the entire time. Combo combo combo counter, repeat. Wowzers, good work. Sorry, I think there was one meat shield in there.
Didn't anyone see a guard break or a throw or push or any kind of personal style whatsoever?

He/she never bothered to change the primary weapon even once, didn't incorporate his projectile weapon (why a bow and arrow in city combat? come on). Never bothered to go unarmed, didn't even start the fight off with a good kill on the run.


I mean, if a Player is going to PLAY in a boring way, then yeah, combat is going to BE boring.

On the one hand, you're right. But on the other, games have to give players motivation to use all the features in them. They can't just put them there and say their job is done. All the AC games include variety, but there's never been motivation to switch up weapons or use different tactics. ACIII didn't really change that.

And, frankly, I don't want them to. Or... well, not TOO much. ACR came closest to providing said motivation, but its combat came out mostly-annoying. Those Jannesseries...

Combat shouldn't be particularly-difficult in the games. It could be BETTER, but it shouldn't be harder.

warner4692
04-19-2013, 09:27 PM
And, also, get the block feature off the face buttons. That's obnoxious. The hidden blade counters from the first game (where you couldn't block, but every attack would be deadly) were especially cool. It just added to the feeling really nicely.

xx-pyro
04-20-2013, 12:05 AM
AC1 was difficult? Did we play the same game?

TRUKITTN
04-20-2013, 12:40 AM
Kill streaks should be tied to different weapons so players can get the experience they like.

I love kill streaks, not because they make the game easier but because I just really like embracing mass carnage. Chewing through everything they can throw at me like a BA with Alien DNA.

This is kinda what I was thinking.

I suggested it in another thread, but if they made it so that kill streaks could be performed with heavy/long weapons that leave you open to attack I think it would make a nice compromise. As is, I rarely use the heavier/longer weapons and this would give me a reason to when I end up in a fight with a bunch of weaker fellas. Or if I just wanna look ridiculously awesome, mowing through the big guys and HP Bar be damned. Others might enjoy the challenge of using it all the time without actually getting clobbered. I think it'd change killstreak from something most people see as easy-mode to something a little more difficult to maintain.

SolidSage
04-20-2013, 04:52 AM
This is kinda what I was thinking.

I suggested it in another thread, but if they made it so that kill streaks could be performed with heavy/long weapons that leave you open to attack I think it would make a nice compromise. As is, I rarely use the heavier/longer weapons and this would give me a reason to when I end up in a fight with a bunch of weaker fellas. Or if I just wanna look ridiculously awesome, mowing through the big guys and HP Bar be damned. Others might enjoy the challenge of using it all the time without actually getting clobbered. I think it'd change killstreak from something most people see as easy-mode to something a little more difficult to maintain.
I use the war club all the time. Usually start with a kill on the run, drop the first with a combo, chain a few, throw the war club at another (Connor switches to tomahawk auto event though it's not on the d-pad), counter, guard break, rope dart etc etc.
Mad fun.

All the prompts turned off is way better so it's just visible actions you have to watch for but I do agree that a larger variety would make it harder.
It's not that I want the kill streaks to go away because they are really awesome fun, but just like the free running change up, it now seems like everyone who plays Creed can pull off the more difficult maneuvers. It's that loss of depth to skill mastery that I would like to see regained.
Some way of creating a gap in the skill acquisition that really requires dedication to attain.

But then a lot of players wouldn't ever fully experience all the excellence available I suppose.
Hmm...? Yep. Seems like creed STILL needs difficulty settings. What we have now can be rookie and then lets bump it up a couple of notches from there so that the AI are less predictable, more viscous and opportunistic and attack better in groups.
Maybe give certain types a disarm ability so we have to be more cautious about slipping into button jagger mode - 'mashmashmash "I am so AWSUM at this game" ;)


p.s your sig rulz
wyld stallyons

generallsj
04-20-2013, 02:54 PM
No, AC3 combat is fun, the combat shown in this video WAS boring though.
Likely due to the fact that the player only bothered to use two buttons the entire time. Combo combo combo counter, repeat. Wowzers, good work. Sorry, I think there was one meat shield in there.
Didn't anyone see a guard break or a throw or push or any kind of personal style whatsoever?

He/she never bothered to change the primary weapon even once, didn't incorporate his projectile weapon (why a bow and arrow in city combat? come on). Never bothered to go unarmed, didn't even start the fight off with a good kill on the run.


I mean, if a Player is going to PLAY in a boring way, then yeah, combat is going to BE boring.

The video was my play and there was no chance to get more meat shield than that. At first line shot they were trying to get ready when I was trying to kill last guard around me and it is impossible to get meat shileld at that timing. Then should I wait in calm for little seconds to get him a meat shield because he is too weak to be held in my attack until he become a shield? But kindly although he dead I have no problem to close to them without any hit because they shot crappy. At second shot when I need a meat shield others was scattered enough to I can not grab one of them, this has problems with AI move or nerf of kilstreak distance range but anyway I also no problem to close to them again. At third shot finally their crappy shot killed their man. And eventually at fourth shot I was just walk to get a meat shield sneering at the officer who was warning at me by pistol aiming then suddenly an agile was just caught for a meat shield. What a crap? These are some reasons the combat system is hugely flawed.

And why should I change my weapons when I can solve everything just by a sword? To waste amunition of projectile weapons just for make the combat looks awesome is out of sense and they are do not make big difference in that. I did guard break to every officer. Throwing is useless in most of time except a situation like I am under attack but do not kill anyone for notoriety while escape. And problem is not that there are some ways to play in boring but is that I often can not avoid boring situation even I do not anything to wrong.