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Lass4r
04-04-2013, 02:49 PM
In a panel at GDC, Corey May allegedly agreed when an attendee described Connor as dull, low-key and a disappointing lead character. I only have online sources in Norwegian confirming, although it is a reliable site.

May said that they had difficulty with creating Connor which they didn't have when creating any other character in the series. They had to tread extremely carefully as to not offend minorities of native american descent, and this negatively impacted the character.

It's just a shame this kind of honesty always comes after the game is released. But I have good hopes for Edward, with him they once again are free to do pretty much what they like.
Thoughts?

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 02:54 PM
Corey May agreed that Connor was a dull and disappointing lead character ?? and he felt restricted ?? This doesn't even make any sense, they had consultants and experts and Natives on the team, how can they want to be careful and feel restricted ?? What ? Corey wanted to create a cheery, happy, flirty native and the consultants said no ?? I`ll believe that when pigs fly...

ZeldaEmblem
04-04-2013, 02:56 PM
so... does this have any impact on the future of Connor?

ACfan443
04-04-2013, 03:00 PM
I'm sure that after 3 instalments featuring a happy, charming lead character, they weren't going to make one again. You can tell Corey was trying to do something different with Connor.

silvermercy
04-04-2013, 03:02 PM
I had already suspected that. Take a simple example from the notorious "justice warriors" on various social sites and blogs. They went totally nuts when artists used even half a shade lighter skin tone on their Connor drawing (not even taking into account actual difficulties in lighting and painting or that Connor appeared in different skin tones in the game itself). There was even someone who accused artists who draw in pencil and on WHITE paper that they are white-washing him!! O_o

Similarly with Connor cosplayers: You couldn't find the correct tone of makeup? Half a shade darker than your normal skin tone and you're "blackfacing". Half a shade lighter and you're "white-washing". You can't win. And the funny thing is that the majority of those justice warriors are like me, pure Caucasian white. O_o

I don't remember this happening with Altair, but with Connor... all hell broke loose!

rob.davies2014
04-04-2013, 03:05 PM
Link?

I-Like-Pie45
04-04-2013, 03:22 PM
I'm a pirate, and I find Black Flags offensive.

lonewarrior30
04-04-2013, 03:22 PM
Corey May agreed that Connor was a dull and disappointing lead character ?? and he felt restricted ?? This doesn't even make any sense, they had consultants and experts and Natives on the team, how can they want to be careful and feel restricted ?? What ? Corey wanted to create a cheery, happy, flirty native and the consultants said no ?? I`ll believe that when pigs fly...

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/archive/a/a2/20070831015132!Flying_Pig.jpg

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 03:29 PM
http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/archive/a/a2/20070831015132!Flying_Pig.jpg
that`s just one pig

TheHumanTowel
04-04-2013, 03:35 PM
I do actually think the Native American consultants were restrictive on what they could do with Connor. It seems like the consultants took any actual showing of Native American culture as offensive and as a result we didn't get to spend much time with the tribe at all in the game.

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 03:38 PM
I do actually think the Native American consultants were restrictive on what they could do with Connor. It seems like the consultants took any actual showing of Native American culture as offensive and as a result we didn't get to spend much time with the tribe at all in the game.
and you know this how ? I mean restrictive ? we`re talking about guys who allowed the Tyranny DLC and said it was Okay...you know..the DLC were a Native American is wearing Animal hide and turns into a wolf and eagle..

TheHumanTowel
04-04-2013, 03:43 PM
and you know this how ? I mean restrictive ? we`re talking about guys who allowed the Tyranny DLC and said it was Okay...you know..the DLC were a Native American is wearing Animal hide and turns into a wolf and eagle..
This article is what I'm basing it on.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-18-assassins-creed-3s-alex-hutchinson-stranger-in-a-strange-land
Even stuff like music was apparently incredibly sensitive for them. It is just conjecture but seeing as we spend barely any time with Connor's tribe in the game it would seem like Ubi thought it better to just not show much of their culture rather than run the risk of offending anyone.

D.I.D.
04-04-2013, 03:44 PM
ITT: White people deciding what another racial group ought to find insensitive.

ITT: White people looking down the internet tubes to see the skin colour of the people on the other side of keyboards.

ITT: People from outside of the racial group "just feelin' it in my bones, that's all" that its cultural advisors are the reason why AC3 was bland.

Thanks for your invaluable guidance and clairvoyance!

TheHumanTowel
04-04-2013, 03:47 PM
ITT: White people deciding what another racial group ought to find insensitive.

ITT: White people looking down the internet tubes to see the skin colour of the people on the other side of keyboards.

ITT: People from outside of the racial group "just feelin' it in my bones, that's all" that its cultural advisors are the reason why AC3 was bland.

Thanks for your invaluable guidance and clairvoyance!
Be careful way up there on your high horse now.

D.I.D.
04-04-2013, 03:50 PM
This article is what I'm basing it on.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-18-assassins-creed-3s-alex-hutchinson-stranger-in-a-strange-land
Even stuff like music was apparently incredibly sensitive for them. It is just conjecture but seeing as we spend barely any time with Connor's tribe in the game it would seem like Ubi thought it better to just not show much of their culture rather than run the risk of offending anyone.

And that's sooooo unfair! Surely you should just be allowed to make it up.

Remember that one of the major ideas they took off the table was scalping. That's pretty important.

Even despite the supposedly restrictive cultural advisors and all those pesky historians, we still ended up with a story that ran a garbled message about who exactly intended for First Nations people to keep their lands. It's not really clear why Connor wasn't fighting with the British, given the situation.

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 03:51 PM
This article is what I'm basing it on.
http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2012-07-18-assassins-creed-3s-alex-hutchinson-stranger-in-a-strange-land
Even stuff like music was apparently incredibly sensitive for them. It is just conjecture but seeing as we spend barely any time with Connor's tribe in the game it would seem like Ubi thought it better to just not show much of their culture rather than run the risk of offending anyone.
can you point out where Alex talks about this ? it`s awfully lengthy..

D.I.D.
04-04-2013, 03:52 PM
Be careful way up there on your high horse now.

So you think conjecture and prejudice are fine then? I'm the problem? Get out.

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 03:57 PM
So you think conjecture and prejudice are fine then? I'm the problem? Get out.
You know what ? you`re right.. who are we to talk and assume ??

and I`m not sarcastic and if Corey really did say those things, then my respect for him would dwindle greatly

TheHumanTowel
04-04-2013, 04:00 PM
can you point out where Alex talks about this ? it`s awfully lengthy..
http://i.imgur.com/mf1d6Z0.png

So you think conjecture and prejudice are fine then? I'm the problem? Get out.
Prejudice? Why don't you stop crying. I'm just trying to have a discussion based on OP's post. I never said it was a ****ing fact and I'd gladly be proven wrong.

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 04:04 PM
-CUT-
Fine...but that still does not explain how restrictions made Connor a boring character..I mean Noah himself said that Connor does not strictly represent all Native people....so again, did Corey want to make him happy and charming, but the Natives said no ?

TheHumanTowel
04-04-2013, 04:08 PM
Fine...but that still does not explain how restrictions made Connor a boring character..I mean Noah himself said that Connor does not strictly represent all Native people....so again, did Corey want to make him happy and charming, but the Natives said no ?
Oh I don't think Connor's a boring character I was just talking about the depiction of Connor's culture and the need to tread carefully. Protecting his village and people is his primary motivation, it would have been nice to see some more of them to add some more weight to his arc.

D.I.D.
04-04-2013, 04:08 PM
You know what ? you`re right.. who are we to talk and assume ??

and I`m not sarcastic and if Corey really did say those things, then my respect for him would dwindle greatly

If, exactly. We've got a thread which begins with hearsay and a certain interpretation of what he might have said, with no quotation, so there's no foundation to this discussion at all.

I'm still angry at the barely concealed irritation among some respondents that their precious game might be impeded in any way by proper research, when arguably what we're talking about is actually there to improve the game.

That Eurogamer article is actually very clear about why music and tribal masks weren't allowed. These are facets of a spiritual culture that require a certain reverence, and their meaning would be diminished if they were included for entertainment purposes. This is something that First Nations groups need to protect all the time because companies often blunder into these things: using a specific mask image on a beer label, and so on. The article actually speaks in favour of all of this.

The "othering" at work here too, about whether or not people complained about Altair, with the implication that if people did not complain about Altair then some completely different people complaining about Connor must be over-reacting in some way, or they are obliged to give an approving response. These people might recall that we never got any tomb quests inside famous mosques in ACR, and of course there are obvious reasons why that would be insensitive.

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 04:12 PM
Oh I don't think Connor's a boring character I was just talking about the depiction of Connor's culture and the need to tread carefully. Protecting his village and people is his primary motivation, it would have been nice to see some more of them to add some more weight to his arc.
I was not talking about you, I was talking about what ALLEGEDLY Corey said...how did their restriction make Connor a bland and dull character, according to the alleged remarks ? Is that even possible ??

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 04:12 PM
These people might recall that we never got any tomb quests inside famous mosques in ACR,
We actually did ?

pirate1802
04-04-2013, 04:19 PM
We actually did ?

Ishak Pasha mission :rolleyes:

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 04:23 PM
Ishak Pasha mission :rolleyes:
Yeah that was the biggest Mosque in Istanbul...I mean wooooooooooow if anything`s supposed to offend..then that is it

D.I.D.
04-04-2013, 04:27 PM
We actually did ?

Hmm, maybe I forgot something. I only played ACR once. So I'm wrong about that then!

All I'm saying is it makes my blood boil when I see online discussions getting into the territory of "Christians get mocked all the time, but you don't hear them getting upset!"...

... especially when, actually, you do :D

But you know what I mean, it's beside the point. There shouldn't be a "one policy fits all" approach to this, and it's not pandering if a company finds itself having to take every culture on a case-by-case basis.

ze_topazio
04-04-2013, 04:33 PM
I felt they were being very cautious in AC1 and Revelations too, making sure those Arab cultures were not insulted in any form or way, however they don't seem to give a damn when it comes to western cultures and religious organizations.

silvermercy
04-04-2013, 05:08 PM
Is this going to turn into a religious discussion? Because if so, I originally come from a very Christian orthodox country and if I were to give to any of my family and co-patriots AC games they would be greatly offended. Also, I'm guessing no Christian consultants were hired. Correct me if they were indeed hired for AC. I'm guessing not, which begs the question why they were not hired, especially for a game that bases its main sci-fi plot on the Christian faith so heavily. (Actually... you know what? There'd be no plot as you know it if they did. It'd be deemed offensive).

(However, it's a fact that the Christian majority, in my country of origin at least, is indeed more tolerant (they have no social justice groups I know of for instance). Heck, I still consider myself Christian and look at me! Here I am! I should have threatened you all with fire and brimstone by now. lol)

(By the way, members of the USA-based social justice groups I mentioned ADMITTED themselves they were taking more offense towards the depiction of Native Americans than say Arabs/Muslims and other groups. I find this hypocritical. You either get offended for everything that may deemed culturally/religiously insensitive (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Natives etc) or none at all. Don't PICK and CHOOSE!! I sincerely hope people understand why picking & choosing is so wrong when it comes to this!)

shobhit7777777
04-04-2013, 05:31 PM
Unless this is confirmed by reliable sources (READ: Corey May) consider this to be bull.

/thread

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 05:35 PM
Unless this is confirmed by reliable sources (READ: Corey May) consider this to be bull.

/thread
This

ProletariatPleb
04-04-2013, 05:37 PM
Sooooo, let's analyse the situation shall we? The game doesn't explore Connor as a character and the main focus has been to shove him into every major event ever and then SUPPOSEDLY call him dull and boring, seems legit.

http://i.imgur.com/iqzJ7d5.jpg

Lass4r
04-04-2013, 07:10 PM
Link?
http://www.pressfire.no/spesialer/gdc-13/6787/Kan-vi-f-et-Assassins-Creed-med-romskip-og-aliens
The last paragraph of the article is what I'm referring to.

Since it is in Norwegian, what follows is my translation of the text. Keep in mind that Corey's quotes have been translated to Norwegian and then translated back into English by me, so Corey may have worded it quite differently. But I have done my best to keep the essence of what he's quoted as saying.



Forced to tread carefully with Connor Kenway

A german collegue at the GDC in San Francisco gave Corey May his honest opinion on «Assassin’s Creed III», and said that this is the game of the series with the weakest and least engaging protagonist till now.
Corey May agrees.
-After Ezio we wanted a quieter main protagonist. We also had to tread carefully, show respect and be careful not to offend anyone, that's the last thing we wanted.
-The voice actor we ended up with also helped to further tone down [the protagonist], May admits.
Connor is a native american, and minority groups in the US are often vocal if something is historically inaccurate, or is [put too much focus on].
-So far, we've managed to avoid controvercies. This time, with Connor and his background, we had to take a whole new set of precautions.

«Assassin’sCreed IV: Black Flag» have us meet Connor's grandfather, Edward Kenway. On the open sea, perhaps with a bottle of rum consumed and a more liberal era – will the people at Ubisoft be more lenient with this game?
-Perhaps, Corey May says with a smile.
-But I can't say more about that right now.

TheHumanTowel
04-04-2013, 07:22 PM
I don't see Corey agreeing Connor is a dull character anywhere in those quotes. Sounds sensationalist to me.

Assassin_M
04-04-2013, 07:23 PM
I don't see Corey agreeing Connor is a dull character anywhere in those quotes. Sounds sensationalist to me.
This..

Sounds like Corey may now

Sushiglutton
04-04-2013, 07:28 PM
http://www.pressfire.no/spesialer/gdc-13/6787/Kan-vi-f-et-Assassins-Creed-med-romskip-og-aliens
The last paragraph of the article is what I'm referring to.

Since it is in Norwegian, what follows is my translation of the text. Keep in mind that Corey's quotes have been translated to Norwegian and then translated back into English by me, so Corey may have worded it quite differently. But I have done my best to keep the essence of what he's quoted as saying.

The two remarks "Corey May agrees" and "May admits" completely change what those quotes mean. And those remarks are added by the author. This feels shady to me.

Lass4r
04-04-2013, 07:35 PM
I can see why you say that, although I would think "Corey May agrees" is just paraphrasing to avoid having to quote a too long answer. This is a fairly reputable newspaper in Norway, but there's no way to know for sure unless we get word from Corey I suppose.

pacmanate
04-04-2013, 07:43 PM
Makes sense. Hopefully they never touch an area of history they can't full get their hands into and make their own.

Sushiglutton
04-04-2013, 07:47 PM
I can see why you say that, although I would think "Corey May agrees" is just paraphrasing to avoid having to quote a too long answer. This is a fairly reputable newspaper in Norway, but there's no way to know for sure unless we get word from Corey I suppose.

If I understand correctly it's a gaming site runned by Dagbladet (som även vi svenskar känner till :) ), so I agree it's a reputable source. That said it's key exactly what Corey said (and even how he looked when he said it). I mean it sounds more like he is agreeing that Connor is the most toned down/quiet protagonist so far, rather than that he is the wekest/least engaging. In all interviews I've heard with May he has been super cautious, so it would suprise me a great deal if he had said something like the latter.

No offense to you what so ever!!! But I remain sceptical about this story :).

Lass4r
04-04-2013, 08:28 PM
If I understand correctly it's a gaming site runned by Dagbladet (som även vi svenskar känner till :) ), so I agree it's a reputable source. That said it's key exactly what Corey said (and even how he looked when he said it). I mean it sounds more like he is agreeing that Connor is the most toned down/quiet protagonist so far, rather than that he is the wekest/least engaging. In all interviews I've heard with May he has been super cautious, so it would suprise me a great deal if he had said something like the latter.

No offense to you what so ever!!! But I remain sceptical about this story :).
It's Dagbladet, correct ^^

SixKeys
04-04-2013, 09:38 PM
The two remarks "Corey May agrees" and "May admits" completely change what those quotes mean. And those remarks are added by the author. This feels shady to me.

^^ This. Nowhere in those quotes does Corey May say that he agrees the protagonist he wrote was dull. That's just what the author of the article took them to imply.

I'd rather the devs be too respectful to the natives than not enough. We've already got plenty of white man's interpretations of native cultures in all forms of media. AC3 seems to be one of the few teams who even bothered to take the consultants' concerns seriously.

Eternal Reward
04-04-2013, 10:10 PM
At least with pirates there is no one to be offended.

Or, is there?

silvermercy
04-04-2013, 10:17 PM
At least with pirates there is no one to be offended.

Or, is there?
One-eyed people??

FirestarLuva
04-04-2013, 10:28 PM
Just went to the link posted a few pages back and the headline where they talk about Connor is "Had to tread lightly with Connor Kenway"
Nowhere does it say Connor was a dull or boring character. What author would say that. Corey seemed so fond of Connor during interviews, he even encouraged people to finish the Homestead missions and interactive conversations to get to know Connor more and he and Matt even said during one interview they would love to do Connor again. The only thing I've heard him say about Connor in other articles was that he was a much more complex and a harder character to write. He basically said the same thing in this article but the author twisted his words.
And the Corey May 'agrees" seems to be a typo. They guy says AC3 had the most boring protagonist yet Corey goes and talks about how after Ezio they wanted a quieter protagonist. He could've at least started with 'Yes', 'I agree' etc.
And I agree with SixKeys above. If Ubi didn't hire consultants and thread carefully with Connor's culture the number of people who hated AC3 would double, and half of them would be natives. The amount of posts I've read about natives talking about how much they love Connor, how thankful they are, how some of them even cried when Ubi announced a native as a main character, I don't want to imagine what would've been if Ubi screwed and showed Connor's background in a wrong light.
And about not seeing enough of his culture and native side. The creative of TOKW said one of the reasons for the DLC was to put more focus on Ratonhnhake:ton and the conflict between his european/assassin side (Connor) and native side (Ratonhnhake:ton). So far, I haven't seen any natives furious about this, hell they say the DLC is fantastic, which is a good thing.

D.I.D.
04-05-2013, 01:49 AM
Is this going to turn into a religious discussion? Because if so, I originally come from a very Christian orthodox country and if I were to give to any of my family and co-patriots AC games they would be greatly offended. Also, I'm guessing no Christian consultants were hired. Correct me if they were indeed hired for AC. I'm guessing not, which begs the question why they were not hired, especially for a game that bases its main sci-fi plot on the Christian faith so heavily. (Actually... you know what? There'd be no plot as you know it if they did. It'd be deemed offensive).

(However, it's a fact that the Christian majority, in my country of origin at least, is indeed more tolerant (they have no social justice groups I know of for instance). Heck, I still consider myself Christian and look at me! Here I am! I should have threatened you all with fire and brimstone by now. lol)

(By the way, members of the USA-based social justice groups I mentioned ADMITTED themselves they were taking more offense towards the depiction of Native Americans than say Arabs/Muslims and other groups. I find this hypocritical. You either get offended for everything that may deemed culturally/religiously insensitive (Arabs, Muslims, Christians, Natives etc) or none at all. Don't PICK and CHOOSE!! I sincerely hope people understand why picking & choosing is so wrong when it comes to this!)

It's not hypocritical. It's almost impossible to approach the massive breadth of human cultures and have a blanket treatment of them all. Of course people in the US would take more offence over depictions of Native Americans: they're likely better educated about Native American culture than they are about Muslim Americans or Arab Americans, and they're more likely to be, to be related to, or to have friends who are Native American. There's no surprise here. I suppose you could decide to offend all religions equally, but AC is not Family Guy, and its job is not to be controversial or satirical. In fact, if we were talking about the rights of comedians, columnists, authors, artists and so on then I'd take a totally different stand.

This is not about picking and choosing but about accuracy. It would have been a horrible mistake to have included scalping in AC3, and the designers discovered it wasn't accurate for their story, but I clearly remember the gleeful expectation on this forum when Connor was first announced that scalping would be part of it. To some degree it's also about privilege and power, which is where some selection does enter the frame. I'm concerned about offences against Islam in my country because Muslims are a minority here, although that doesn't mean I take their side whenever a UK Muslim feels offended, but I have far less sympathy with clerics who accuse Iranians of offending Islam within Iranian borders. I'm less concerned with offending Christians in Europe and the US because they have enormous power.

We're complex creatures and these are complex intercultural relationships. I'm extremely mistrustful of anyone who dances even in the vague area of "it's one rule for us and another for the likes of them", and with good reason. Have you not seen men reach for weak mirroring arguments when discussing gender issues? False equivalency? It's a kind of intellectual laziness which often masks a lot of nastiness.

silvermercy
04-05-2013, 02:09 AM
I have no time now to expand but I find it extremely hypocritical and wrong I'm afraid...

It's like people saying they only feel sorry for the destitute prostitutes in the street corner but not for the more privileged VIP escort prostitutes who are still drugged and trafficked. Or that they feel sorry for the poor orphans but not for the better-off financially orphans. Aren't they both orphans? I don't know about other people but I feel sorry for both groups equally.

(And AC is very controversial).

Edit: I have found that the offended social justice warrior is many times just another type of cyber-bully. I can't count the times that I have seen cosplayers and artists, teenagers especially, contemplating suicide simply because their color picker in photoshop accidentally happened to go one pixel lighter or darker. I remember one person especially who succeeded in taking their own life last year because of this exact social justice cyber-bullying. It goes way beyond being offended. Hence for me after this: most online social justice warriors = cuber-bullies. Because they don't use their superior knowledge to educate (as they claim they do), but they viciously attack vulnerable individuals with dedicated and targeted campaigns. And as I said before, the irony is those cyber-bullies do not usually belong to the supposedly offended group. For example, many Natives were happy with Connor's portrayal, but some groups of non-Natives were not. Instead they chose to be offended and bully people (like cosplayers) on Native people's behalf. Who asked them to be "offended" for them in the first place!? Natives? Not really...

(Many times they are not even educated... I just remembered now one person on deviantArt who went on a full rage mode about racism regarding Johnny Depp playing Tonto, a Native American in a film. Clearly forgetting that Depp is part Native and that he was was officially inducted as a Comanche tribe member the previous year... They just went on and on about the choice of "white" actor and the offensive makeup he was wearing... I mean... LOL)

pirate1802
04-05-2013, 04:34 AM
At least with pirates there is no one to be offended.

Or, is there?

The better consult me, or I'll be offended.

ProletariatPleb
04-05-2013, 04:44 AM
I can't count the times that I have seen cosplayers and artists, teenagers especially, contemplating suicide simply because their color picker in photoshop accidentally happened to go one pixel lighter or darker. I remember one person especially who succeeded in taking their own life last year because of this exact social justice cyber-bullying.
I...what? Suicide over a color being lighter or darker? That's just stupid.

pirate1802
04-05-2013, 04:57 AM
O_o

ProletariatPleb
04-05-2013, 04:59 AM
O_o
Get on flacefook

pirate1802
04-05-2013, 05:03 AM
Get on flacefook

Aye aye

twenty_glyphs
04-05-2013, 05:14 AM
I'm all for being culturally sensitive, but they probably got way too careful with AC3. They were so afraid of offending Native Americans that they weren't able to tell a good story dealing with the culture their character actually came from. Not including scalping is a no-brainer, but I feel like the game just skips over all the actual Native American culture to jump into the American Revolution with no real context, and the story suffered greatly for it.

I applaud them for trying something different, but it seems like it would have been smart to decide early on what aspects of Native American life they were going to show and involve the consultants early on. If it really wasn't going well, it would have been good to know early so they could change their plans. If they felt too restricted and were afraid to even show Connor's heritage, then what was the point of him being Native American in the first place? It just comes off as superficial. I'd personally rather see the story from the point of view of a colonist or the British if they had a little more character to them. Perhaps that's why Haytham was a more interesting character, since they were likely not afraid of offending the British with his rather stereotypical English flair. That's probably why he feels more genuine to me, despite some of the cliche.

Imagine if they had been afraid of offending Italians when they made AC2. I could easily imagine an Ezio and Italy stripped of its cultural heritage due to the fear of offending anyone. Call Ezio a cliche or a stereotype all you want, but he felt so much more real to me than Connor.

Legendz54
04-05-2013, 05:24 AM
OP: Bull****

VitaminsXYZ
04-05-2013, 05:47 AM
I'm all for being culturally sensitive, but they probably got way too careful with AC3. They were so afraid of offending Native Americans that they weren't able to tell a good story dealing with the culture their character actually came from. Not including scalping is a no-brainer, but I feel like the game just skips over all the actual Native American culture to jump into the American Revolution with no real context, and the story suffered greatly for it.

I applaud them for trying something different, but it seems like it would have been smart to decide early on what aspects of Native American life they were going to show and involve the consultants early on. If it really wasn't going well, it would have been good to know early so they could change their plans. If they felt too restricted and were afraid to even show Connor's heritage, then what was the point of him being Native American in the first place? It just comes off as superficial. I'd personally rather see the story from the point of view of a colonist or the British if they had a little more character to them. Perhaps that's why Haytham was a more interesting character, since they were likely not afraid of offending the British with his rather stereotypical English flair. That's probably why he feels more genuine to me, despite some of the cliche.

Imagine if they had been afraid of offending Italians when they made AC2. I could easily imagine an Ezio and Italy stripped of its cultural heritage due to the fear of offending anyone. Call Ezio a cliche or a stereotype all you want, but he felt so much more real to me than Connor.

Better to be too careful than not enough. And they said they had to "tread carefully," which is a given, so as to avoid anything culturally insensitive. But that doesn't mean they were restricted in everything they could do with Connor, and honestly I think they did fine in that department. Nowhere was Connor and his background "stripped of their cultural heritage," as you feared what would've happened to Ezio. Sure, it wasn't as prominent, but that doesn't mean that it wasn't there.

BATISTABUS
04-05-2013, 07:07 AM
What the hell? None of that implies that he thinks Connor is dull.

They wanted a "quieter" main protagonist. Check.
They wanted to show respect and not offend. They got consultants.
The voice actor toned down the performance. The performance was more subtle.
They didn't want to offend Natives again.
They had to be careful to not offend...again.

Being careful to not offend a group doesn't restrict creativity...it just restricts stupid bull**** that shouldn't be there in the first place.

D.I.D.
04-05-2013, 10:16 AM
I'm all for being culturally sensitive, but they probably got way too careful with AC3. They were so afraid of offending Native Americans that they weren't able to tell a good story dealing with the culture their character actually came from. Not including scalping is a no-brainer, but I feel like the game just skips over all the actual Native American culture to jump into the American Revolution with no real context, and the story suffered greatly for it.

I applaud them for trying something different, but it seems like it would have been smart to decide early on what aspects of Native American life they were going to show and involve the consultants early on. If it really wasn't going well, it would have been good to know early so they could change their plans. If they felt too restricted and were afraid to even show Connor's heritage, then what was the point of him being Native American in the first place? It just comes off as superficial. I'd personally rather see the story from the point of view of a colonist or the British if they had a little more character to them. Perhaps that's why Haytham was a more interesting character, since they were likely not afraid of offending the British with his rather stereotypical English flair. That's probably why he feels more genuine to me, despite some of the cliche.

Imagine if they had been afraid of offending Italians when they made AC2. I could easily imagine an Ezio and Italy stripped of its cultural heritage due to the fear of offending anyone. Call Ezio a cliche or a stereotype all you want, but he felt so much more real to me than Connor.

Again, you're assuming the writers are excellent at their jobs, and have had their hands tied by those troublesome cultural advisers. You don't know that, and it's actually rather implausible. The dialogue was bland and lumpy for all characters, not just Connor. The whole game felt to many people like it had been rushed out of the door, and Connor is only a part of that. If there were problems writing Connor's character, the walls preventing them from describing him well could just as easily be inside the writers' minds as outside of them. I've heard white writers explain a lack of non-white characters in their work, most recently Lena Dunham defending series one of "Girls", by saying that they struggle to create non-white characters and don't want to do a bad job of it. If you agree that there were failings in filling out Connor's character, maybe that's what happened.

You can offend me as an English person, but no matter what you say it's still water off a duck's back because I don't really care so much about my national culture, and I can afford not to care because I'm lucky to live in one of the wealthiest and most powerful societies in the world (and besides, my culture is not in any danger). The same would be true if was Italian. You might **** me off for five minutes, but you're not contributing to an oppressive system of behaviour that negatively impacts the lives of me and my family. There are other social groups whose culture means an awful lot more to them, and have been mistreated in ways that goes far beyond some conceptual insult, and it's not appropriate to expect equal responses.

D.I.D.
04-05-2013, 10:26 AM
I have no time now to expand but I find it extremely hypocritical and wrong I'm afraid...

It's like people saying they only feel sorry for the destitute prostitutes in the street corner but not for the more privileged VIP escort prostitutes who are still drugged and trafficked. Or that they feel sorry for the poor orphans but not for the better-off financially orphans. Aren't they both orphans? I don't know about other people but I feel sorry for both groups equally.

(And AC is very controversial).

Edit: I have found that the offended social justice warrior is many times just another type of cyber-bully. I can't count the times that I have seen cosplayers and artists, teenagers especially, contemplating suicide simply because their color picker in photoshop accidentally happened to go one pixel lighter or darker. I remember one person especially who succeeded in taking their own life last year because of this exact social justice cyber-bullying. It goes way beyond being offended. Hence for me after this: most online social justice warriors = cuber-bullies. Because they don't use their superior knowledge to educate (as they claim they do), but they viciously attack vulnerable individuals with dedicated and targeted campaigns. And as I said before, the irony is those cyber-bullies do not usually belong to the supposedly offended group. For example, many Natives were happy with Connor's portrayal, but some groups of non-Natives were not. Instead they chose to be offended and bully people (like cosplayers) on Native people's behalf. Who asked them to be "offended" for them in the first place!? Natives? Not really...

(Many times they are not even educated... I just remembered now one person on deviantArt who went on a full rage mode about racism regarding Johnny Depp playing Tonto, a Native American in a film. Clearly forgetting that Depp is part Native and that he was was officially inducted as a Comanche tribe member the previous year... They just went on and on about the choice of "white" actor and the offensive makeup he was wearing... I mean... LOL)

AC can be controversial.

Its purpose is not controversy.

I don't understand what any of your posts are supposed to achieve. You are selecting the very worst of arguments that you claim to have seen, with a very unlikely twist on many of them, rather than taking on the strongest ones. That's a really poor way to debate. MRAs do this all the time: "here are some bat**** fringe opinions I'm pulling out of the air, ergo feminism is wrong". That's illogical, and I would expect better of you, given your own concerns about other aspects of demographic representation.

silvermercy
04-05-2013, 11:48 AM
AC can be controversial.

Its purpose is not controversy.

I don't understand what any of your posts are supposed to achieve. You are selecting the very worst of arguments that you claim to have seen, with a very unlikely twist on many of them, rather than taking on the strongest ones. That's a really poor way to debate. MRAs do this all the time: "here are some bat**** fringe opinions I'm pulling out of the air, ergo feminism is wrong". That's illogical, and I would expect better of you, given your own concerns about other aspects of demographic representation.
It's funny you say that because I've been thinking the same in all this thread about you own posts... I still have not understood the point of them ITT. O_o Anyways...

I'm not selecting any arguments. I have been exposed SO many times to this kind of social justice argument style in other blogs and forums it's not even funny... They always form the same pattern, it's the NORM now. So I'm not selecting. What happens there is: if you DARE say something that may challenge their intolerant way of thinking even the slightest they will try to pick you apart and lick your bones. This happens EVERYWHERE. At least wherever I go (maybe I'm very unlucky)...

(Of course if you don't like my style of argument I should direct you to those social justice blogs. There are thousands out there. You will see how fun it is to deal with them.)

Purpose or not, AC is still controversial. I have no doubts they knew that or they wouldn't be putting their disclaimer in the initial starting screen.

Let's sum up the points I am trying to make:
- A HUGE number of social justice blogs are not social justice blogs they are cyber-bully blogs in disguise. It is the NORM now to attack people for the slightest mishap. Like attacking 13 year old girls for braiding their hair 'supposedly' native-style. Norm.

- Some minorities are more sensitive than others. Some are understandably more sensitive but some are not.

- Tolerance should be demonstrated in every part of life. If they want to "educate" people they should always do it calmly.

- People from majority populations should not try and get "offended" on behalf of minority populations and attack people like they do now. Especially when said minorities are NOT offended! (repeating two key words: "not offended")

- I truly think Connor had more restriction in his development compared to other characters. His game was the only one so far where they had to hire a consultant of this kind as far as I know. Not that they shouldn't. I'm not arguing that!! We're talking about possible creativity limitations.

(For example, Ezio, despite being a stereotypical playboy Italian, did not face so many restrictions as Connor. This is so obvious. The devs could do almost whatever the hell wanted with him, because they knew Italians would not go up in arms about Italian men being stereotyped like this).
So, yes, I believe Connor was severely restricted. Even if it was just in terms of development game TIME. Time is money, time is precious. The time they lost by going back and forth with the consultant could have been spent on pure character development. This is a game industry not a book. Again, I'm not saying they shouldn't have hired a consultant).

- Now, just because Italians and English etc are coming from a more privileged background than minority groups and they are not affected as much as them, still, nobody has the right to attack anyone in any shape or form. Especially when the "offense" is ridiculous. Like drawing a Native on white paper... *le gasp* Why I focus on such incidents? Because I have the right and freedom to find them ridiculous, plus it's happened so many times. Because when this line of ridiculousness is crossed and starts spreading (and it does), I find this very worrisome, especially concerning our freedom of speech in the future. When will it stop? When we have thought-police? When white paper is banned? (Seriously, political correctness is one of the things I hate the most. For me, it's like calling fat people "horizontally challenged" or other nicknames so they're not offended).

I guess the keyword I'm trying to communicate here is having more "tolerance". If there was more of it I sincerely believe Connor would have more freedom as a character. Not only that, but people would actually stop and listen to whatever those social justice blogs have to say. In other words, some tolerance would benefit immensely minority groups. Now developers are almost scared to even touch the subject... (I don't know if this is coincidental or not but we went back to a purely white and blond assassin, Edward...And there will be more Edwards in the future if some level of tolerance from some minority groups is not shown soon). This is my opinion.

silvermercy
04-05-2013, 11:57 AM
I...what? Suicide over a color being lighter or darker? That's just stupid.
Not because of that. Because of the cyber-bullying campaign that ensued because of that.

silvermercy
04-05-2013, 11:59 AM
I'm all for being culturally sensitive, but they probably got way too careful with AC3. They were so afraid of offending Native Americans that they weren't able to tell a good story dealing with the culture their character actually came from. Not including scalping is a no-brainer, but I feel like the game just skips over all the actual Native American culture to jump into the American Revolution with no real context, and the story suffered greatly for it.

I applaud them for trying something different, but it seems like it would have been smart to decide early on what aspects of Native American life they were going to show and involve the consultants early on. If it really wasn't going well, it would have been good to know early so they could change their plans. If they felt too restricted and were afraid to even show Connor's heritage, then what was the point of him being Native American in the first place? It just comes off as superficial. I'd personally rather see the story from the point of view of a colonist or the British if they had a little more character to them. Perhaps that's why Haytham was a more interesting character, since they were likely not afraid of offending the British with his rather stereotypical English flair. That's probably why he feels more genuine to me, despite some of the cliche.

Imagine if they had been afraid of offending Italians when they made AC2. I could easily imagine an Ezio and Italy stripped of its cultural heritage due to the fear of offending anyone. Call Ezio a cliche or a stereotype all you want, but he felt so much more real to me than Connor.
This. I still liked Connor more than Ezio but we share the same thoughts.

ACfan443
04-05-2013, 12:34 PM
I'm all for being culturally sensitive, but they probably got way too careful with AC3. They were so afraid of offending Native Americans that they weren't able to tell a good story dealing with the culture their character actually came from.

But what about the DLC? Connor's face covered in war paint, a dead animal over his head, a ludicrous plot revolving around a mystical tree where by drinking its tea, super natural powers arise allowing you to fly as an eagle and have a gang of wolves at your disposal?

It seems like when creating the DLC, any incentive to be culturally sensitive flew right past their heads. And this is confusing considering the superfluous measures they were taking in the main campaign.

silvermercy
04-05-2013, 12:41 PM
But what about the DLC? Connor's face covered in war paint, a dead animal over his head, a ludicrous plot revolving around a mystical tree where by drinking its tea, super natural powers arise allowing you to fly as an eagle and have a gang of wolves at your disposal?

It seems like when creating the DLC, any incentive to be culturally sensitive flew right past their heads. And this is confusing considering the superfluous measures they were taking in the main campaign.
No, the Native American consultant had apparently a great say in the DLC as well. The tea would not be tea but stones which were deemed offensive initially. The tea idea, for example, came after the consultation with the Native consultant. I imagine everything went through the consultant including Connor's uniform.

Assassin_M
04-05-2013, 12:46 PM
No, the Native American consultant had apparently a great say in the DLC as well. The tea would not be tea but stones which were deemed offensive initially. The tea idea, for example, came after the consultation with the Native consultant. I imagine everything went through the consultant including Connor's uniform.
There was another thing about Franklin`s blood, but the consultant said no as well :P

ze_topazio
04-05-2013, 01:04 PM
That consultant sounds annoying.

silvermercy
04-05-2013, 01:06 PM
There was another thing about Franklin`s blood, but the consultant said no as well :P
Oh yes! Do you remember the details of that at all?? lol

(Anyways, I think stones that light up and Connor passing out when he touches them would be so much more interesting and exciting than drinking tea (it's a sci-fi plot after all, I want shiny-bright stones! Not tea! XD). If this was Ezio touching the stones, nobody would bat an eyelid. In a nut-shell: Connor faced many restrictions. So, unfortunately, I can't blame them going back to characters like Edward now and having less diversity in cultural backgrounds as a result... I wouldn't want that but... what can you do? Less offense potential there... Why risk it? You're a company and it's money you lose.)

BATISTABUS
04-05-2013, 05:00 PM
That consultant sounds annoying.
Yeah, **** the guy that represents a group of people that has been exploited for 400 years. How dare he try to make sure things are done properly and respectfully? It really sucks that Ubisoft was forced to hire him.

silvermercy
04-05-2013, 05:03 PM
Yeah, **** the guy that represents a group of people that has been exploited for 400 years. How dare he try to make sure things are done properly and respectfully? It really sucks that Ubisoft was forced to hire him.
I don't think anyone here doubts the need for hiring him??

Assassin_M
04-05-2013, 05:12 PM
I don't think anyone here doubts the need for hiring him??


That consultant sounds annoying.

What ?

silvermercy
04-05-2013, 05:17 PM
What ?
What what? lol
In my own quote I said the consultant needed to be hired so as to make things right. Anyway, I didn't take the other comment seriously. He looked like he was kidding of course.

ze_topazio
04-05-2013, 05:22 PM
Yeah, **** the guy that represents a group of people that has been exploited for 400 years. How dare he try to make sure things are done properly and respectfully? It really sucks that Ubisoft was forced to hire him.

Oh come on you don't need to take everything so seriously, i was just joking with the fact the consultant "forbid" everything that sounded cool.

Assassin_M
04-05-2013, 06:22 PM
Oh come on you don't need to take everything so seriously, i was just joking with the fact the consultant "forbid" everything that sounded cool.
My bad, too

FirestarLuva
04-05-2013, 09:16 PM
No, the Native American consultant had apparently a great say in the DLC as well. The tea would not be tea but stones which were deemed offensive initially. The tea idea, for example, came after the consultation with the Native consultant. I imagine everything went through the consultant including Connor's uniform.

I'm kind of glad the consultant was still present during this DLC. And yes, they created Connor's outfit based on how natives, mostly Mohawks dressed back then.
And the reason for the DLC, as the devs said, was to show more of Connor's native heritage, which they had to tone down on in AC3. They even said they could unleash their imagination for this DLC, so I think their creativity regarding Connor's character seems satisfied.

ProletariatPleb
04-05-2013, 09:24 PM
And yes, they created Connor's outfit based on how natives, mostly Mohawks dressed back then.
http://puu.sh/2m81A


What's with your font and size ._.

MasterAssasin84
04-05-2013, 09:26 PM
I dont belive this one bit ! i mean Corey May being one of the lead designers for AC3, the team spent along time doing their research and liasing with Mohawk experts ? just seems like a very shallow article to me.

Assassin_M
04-05-2013, 09:28 PM
I dont belive this one bit ! i mean Corey May being one of the lead designers for AC3, the team spent along time doing their research and liasing with Mohawk experts ? just seems like a very shallow article to me.
read the earlier pages. Corey said no such thing as what OP describes...

MasterAssasin84
04-05-2013, 09:33 PM
read the earlier pages. Corey said no such thing as what OP describes...

So were did this all come from ? lol

Assassin_M
04-05-2013, 09:36 PM
So were did this all come from ? lol
OP`s jumping to conclusions and the article`s original author choice of some weird words like "Admits" and "Agrees"

FirestarLuva
04-05-2013, 09:36 PM
What's with your font and size ._.

I don't know why I use it...I kind of like it I guess. XD

MasterAssasin84
04-05-2013, 10:30 PM
OP`s jumping to conclusions and the article`s original author choice of some weird words like "Admits" and "Agrees"

M a little off topic but your posts have greatly increased in comparison to Mr Shade and Black Widow ! should you not be doing their job loool !!

Assassin_M
04-05-2013, 10:31 PM
M a little off topic but your posts have greatly increased in comparison to Mr Shade and Black Widow ! should you not be doing their job loool !!
I should be president

ArabianFrost
04-05-2013, 10:35 PM
I should be president

Well, you can't do a crappier job than Morsy, so why the bloody hell not?

ProletariatPleb
04-05-2013, 10:36 PM
Well, you can't do a crappier job than Morsy, so why the bloody hell not?
Your post 404'd

MasterAssasin84
04-05-2013, 10:38 PM
Well, you can't do a crappier job than Morsy, so why the bloody hell not?

As an observer on the outside its quite ironic that he is challenging the very thing the Egyptian people was fighting during the uprisings !

ArabianFrost
04-05-2013, 10:49 PM
Your post 404'd

I see what you did there.

ArabianFrost
04-05-2013, 10:52 PM
As an observer on the outside its quite ironic that he is challenging the very thing the Egyptian people was fighting during the uprisings !

Indeed, the mentioned irony is uncanny. I still weep that M wasn't elected president. If only M had decided to run for the President of Egypt and not the AC forums, things would have gone far better.

StarzSuicide
04-05-2013, 10:59 PM
that`s just one pig

I love you.

Lass4r
04-06-2013, 12:25 AM
OP`s jumping to conclusions and the article`s original author choice of some weird words like "Admits" and "Agrees"
Dude, now you're getting rude again. I never jumped to conclusions, in fact the very title of my article suggests scepticism. If I could edit the first post with more opinions I would, but it seems to have bugged during the login changes (from username to email).

ze_topazio
04-06-2013, 01:15 AM
My bad, too

No problem.

MasterAssasin84
04-06-2013, 12:47 PM
Indeed, the mentioned irony is uncanny. I still weep that M wasn't elected president. If only M had decided to run for the President of Egypt and not the AC forums, things would have gone far better.

Actions always speak louder than words as with any Politician !

MasterAssasin84
04-06-2013, 12:48 PM
Dude, now you're getting rude again. I never jumped to conclusions, in fact the very title of my article suggests scepticism. If I could edit the first post with more opinions I would, but it seems to have bugged during the login changes (from username to email).

But this topic was based on very bad facts admitingly.