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View Full Version : Contested kills....good or bad?



ThaFazz
04-02-2013, 12:42 AM
If it was up to you would you keep contested kills and honorable deaths in AC4?

AvK KiNgKoBrA
04-02-2013, 12:46 AM
Yes since they help to make the pursurer more vulnerable tho in scrims its a real pain

ThaFazz
04-02-2013, 12:49 AM
Yes since they help to make the pursurer more vulnerable tho in scrims its a real pain
Yeah I think that's why this is kind of a tricky question. If they were to change how they are right now, they might have to change some other mechanics too.

alexbentley
04-02-2013, 01:11 AM
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather they kept contested kills and removed honourable deaths. If your pursuer makes themselves obvious (this is from a non-objective mode, non assassinate perspective) then they deserve to be penalised. Similarly, if your target comes charging up fearless for an honourable death then they shouldn't be rewarded either.

sajber00
04-02-2013, 01:21 AM
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather they kept contested kills and removed honourable deaths. If your pursuer makes themselves obvious (this is from a non-objective mode, non assassinate perspective) then they deserve to be penalised. Similarly, if your target comes charging up fearless for an honourable death then they shouldn't be rewarded either.

Indeed.

toniee99
04-02-2013, 05:00 AM
i thought maybe you shouldnt be able to get honorable death if you are in high profile, so you cant just find your pursuer and run up to them
but then this would make artifact assault harder :l

lawliet250
04-02-2013, 10:43 AM
fazz dont bother with polls like this anymore , its pointless these people are complete morons they dont know what they want from this game or how to be like, 1st they complained since acr that ubisoft made a mistake and that they shouldve kept the acb formula with only a minor changes, thats what my polls where for to have the chance to vote for this and ubi to see what we really want and to bring bk acb style but now they say that this game is fun and better than acb and has no problems pfff...no wonder acr got totally ruined with that patch, these exact people on the forums whined to ubisoft that they were getting killed cuz they couldnt time their sb and where getting stunned through their osb...so yea dont bother, its like beating a dead horse

Demon.King.
04-02-2013, 12:45 PM
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather they kept contested kills and removed honourable deaths. If your pursuer makes themselves obvious (this is from a non-objective mode, non assassinate perspective) then they deserve to be penalised. Similarly, if your target comes charging up fearless for an honourable death then they shouldn't be rewarded either.

This. The target shouldn't be rewarded for being spotted. It's irrelevant if he also spotted his pursuer, he was spotted but is being rewarded for it anyway...

Add this to the poll and see what comes out of it then.


I think it's either that or the removal of contested kill point loss. why? Removing contested kill point loss would reduce a lot the use of OSB. it makes no real difference to me but I see a lot of complaints about it since ACR...and this is probably the main reason...

cjdavies
04-02-2013, 01:00 PM
Keep them, why I should give someone a Incognito kill or more when I know they are my purser.

Yutake782
04-02-2013, 01:11 PM
I'm not going to be playing the next game or the game after. Ubisoft showed us since ACB that they just do not care. They tried, with the addition of a community manager but failed. Badly. They simply suck at this however I voted to remove contested kills.

Demon.King.
04-02-2013, 01:17 PM
I'm not going to be playing the next game or the game after. Ubisoft showed us since ACB that they just do not care. They tried, with the addition of a community manager but failed. Badly. They simply suck at this

I'm still waiting for a beta before deciding. If i see that they didn't really care about the mayor issues, then I won't be buying it. But There is still a speck of hope, even after the let down AC3 was...

Yutake782
04-02-2013, 01:22 PM
I'm still waiting for a beta before deciding. If i see that they didn't really care about the mayor issues, then I won't be buying it. But There is still a speck of hope, even after the let down AC3 was...
Heh. There WAS a spec of hope at the end of ACB but AC3? No..

langelino21
04-02-2013, 02:45 PM
What they should do is, for private sessions give you the option to turn things on and off, like contested kills, honorable death, abilities, ranged abilities, perks, streaks, those kinda things. Would help ACIII competitive players out a LOT I think.

Yutake782
04-02-2013, 02:57 PM
What they should do is, for private sessions give you the option to turn things on and off, like contested kills, honorable death, abilities, ranged abilities, perks, streaks, those kinda things. Would help ACIII competitive players out a LOT I think.

Competitive AC3? I really hope you're talking about Armored Core 3.

luckyto
04-02-2013, 08:08 PM
Sometimes, I want ACB's style back. I think it was simpler, and beautiful in its own right for that simplicity. When I go back to Brotherhood, it's very enjoyable not having it. I think it was more rewarding to n00bs as well, as they got the pleasure of a real kill ... not some contested hacking. Contested Kills also contribute to some rather unsavory tactics such as OSB.

But on the flip side, it is ridiculous that you can spot your pursuer coming and they still get an incognito. That drives me nuts too. And it drives me nuts that the stun range and kill range are not equal.

Personally, I'd just like for a contested kill to reward the target with an Honourable Death, and simply knock the RDM down one notch (Incogs become Silents, Silents become Discreets, Discreets become a base 100 pt kill).

AvK KiNgKoBrA
04-02-2013, 09:47 PM
What they should do is, for private sessions give you the option to turn things on and off, like contested kills, honorable death, abilities, ranged abilities, perks, streaks, those kinda things. Would help ACIII compe***ive players out a LOT I think.


Compe***ive AC3? I really hope you're talking about Armored Core 3.

Hahaha AC3 lol
Doubt it would help all the comp. players but it is a good idea. My clan tends to play 4v4s against each other from time to time an it would make the games alot more interresting

Moi-dix-Mois43
04-03-2013, 05:42 AM
Really? Keep them both is winning? These contested/honorable kills/deaths + the RDM are what broke ACR and AC3. Any player worth half his level will spot you out in a second, and from there on it's nothing but non-stop contested and reckless (or discreet if you're lucky) kills. Call me a bad player, but the only time you're gonna get a silent/incognito kill is if Ubi derps out his controls for a split-second long enough for you to catch the poor b@stard.

poketopa
04-03-2013, 07:26 AM
I would just amp up the honorable death points (just by 50 points or so, just for a little more insentive to contest)
I think the idea or contested kills was to let the pursuer know that they've been spotted, thus giving insentive to be stealthy
I don't see anything wrong with it, but its late so I may not be thinking straight :P

poketopa
04-03-2013, 07:34 AM
Really? Keep them both is winning? These contested/honorable kills/deaths + the RDM are what broke ACR and AC3. Any player worth half his level will spot you out in a second, and from there on it's nothing but non-stop contested and reckless (or discreet if you're lucky) kills. Call me a bad player, but the only time you're gonna get a silent/incognito kill is if Ubi derps out his controls for a split-second long enough for you to catch the poor b@stard.

I dont think thats true. Of course when you're playing against noobs, but in semi-compe***ive games, disguise can seriously throw your target off, as well as your pursuers. Plus if you are a deathmatch player, you know that there are more stealthy ways that don't expose yourself so much as walking straight towards them, like taking paths around commotion. Anyways, I think contested kills kinda adds to the fun by giving you a little challenge. Dont get contested. I'm an assassinate player, a gamemode have that much stealth. But I think I have played deathmatch enough to know about these things. I may not be an expert though. I havent played much compe***ive deathmatch. Sorry for the ramble.

Moi-dix-Mois43
04-03-2013, 09:21 AM
I dont think thats true. Of course when you're playing against noobs, but in semi-compe***ive games, disguise can seriously throw your target off, as well as your pursuers. Plus if you are a deathmatch player, you know that there are more stealthy ways that don't expose yourself so much as walking straight towards them, like taking paths around commotion. Anyways, I think contested kills kinda adds to the fun by giving you a little challenge. Dont get contested. I'm an assassinate player, a gamemode have that much stealth. But I think I have played deathmatch enough to know about these things. I may not be an expert though. I havent played much compe***ive deathmatch. Sorry for the ramble.

With ACR (and following after, AC3) Disguise was made buttf!cking useless, while Smoke Bomb was amped up. Disguise doesn't throw off a good player AT ALL. Taking groups the long way around is a great idea...assuming there's a group when you need one, and of course, that your target's OTHER pursuer doesn't just run straight up to him and kill him, ignoring all stealth and leaving you looking like the idiot.

And that's just in Deathmatch. Don't even get me started on MH. There is literally NOTHING stopping a group from parking their @sses on the top of a building and just mashing the kill button. Even on the ground, they basically do the same thing to anyone who comes near - disguise or no disguise. Sorry for my rant, but it just really p!sses me off. Why did Ubisoft try to fix something that wasn't broken?

Demon.King.
04-03-2013, 11:10 AM
Really? Keep them both is winning? These contested/honorable kills/deaths + the RDM are what broke ACR and AC3. Any player worth half his level will spot you out in a second, and from there on it's nothing but non-stop contested and reckless (or discreet if you're lucky) kills. Call me a bad player, but the only time you're gonna get a silent/incognito kill is if Ubi derps out his controls for a split-second long enough for you to catch the poor b@stard.

I have to agree. Unless I'm distracted you won't get close undetected. Lag walk will reveal you instantly, no matter how stealthy you act...disguise doesn't help much either...and crowds can help reduce detection...but crowds seem to do the exact opposite of what you would want them to, except in rare cases...

ColdKill18
04-03-2013, 11:30 AM
Imo it was best in Brotherhood. No contested kills and blabla, just to kill or not to kill.
Killed successfully ? → Objective reached.
Wasn't stealthy ? → Still objective reached, but you get less points.
Stunned ? → Failed.

I don't like this "I hit you before you kill me so I get 100 points as well !".
Also the RDM is stupid and makes no sense.
If I wait behind a corner and then kill my target that's only discreet.
To be incognito you have to walk in target's line if sight like an obvious monkey and hope he doesn't spot you.
And in Assa you can run towards your pursuer/target, throw your smoke and then get a silent kill.
F**k logic.

alexbentley
04-03-2013, 04:52 PM
fazz dont bother with polls like this anymore , its pointless these people are complete morons they dont know what they want from this game or how to be like, 1st they complained since acr that ubisoft made a mistake and that they shouldve kept the acb formula with only a minor changes, thats what my polls where for to have the chance to vote for this and ubi to see what we really want and to bring bk acb style but now they say that this game is fun and better than acb and has no problems pfff...no wonder acr got totally ruined with that patch, these exact people on the forums whined to ubisoft that they were getting killed cuz they couldnt time their sb and where getting stunned through their osb...so yea dont bother, its like beating a dead horse

It's not the fault of morons, it's the fault of the people making these polls. You can't expect to get accurate results when a, the poll options aren't explained well and b, they don't cover all the possible choices.


Removing both would definitely have it's advantages, but they'd need to bring back (or make) some new hard stun abilities otherwise defence will go to ****.

luckyto
04-03-2013, 06:03 PM
Really? Keep them both is winning? These contested/honorable kills/deaths + the RDM are what broke ACR and AC3. Any player worth half his level will spot you out in a second, and from there on it's nothing but non-stop contested and reckless (or discreet if you're lucky) kills. Call me a bad player, but the only time you're gonna get a silent/incognito kill is if Ubi derps out his controls for a split-second long enough for you to catch the poor b@stard.

haha MOI --- rock on with your bad self!

I bet I can kill you without you seeing it coming. Distraction combined with Disguise fools the best players. Every day.

Moi-dix-Mois43
04-03-2013, 11:16 PM
haha MOI --- rock on with your bad self!

I bet I can kill you without you seeing it coming. Distraction combined with Disguise fools the best players. Every day.

Dude. ANYONE could kill me without me seeing it coming. I have people running straight up to me using Templar Vision and I don't see it :P

Free_Hidings
04-04-2013, 06:02 AM
Ubisoft made changes that impair my ability to succeed so I want them removed

Moi-dix-Mois43
04-04-2013, 06:30 AM
Ubisoft made changes that impair my ability to succeed so I want them removed

Haha, you're so funny. I don't suppose me pointing out the problems with the contested kill will change your opinion now, will it?

ACRules2
04-04-2013, 06:41 AM
This is probably an unpopular opinion, but I'd rather they kept contested kills and removed honourable deaths. If your pursuer makes themselves obvious (this is from a non-objective mode, non assassinate perspective) then they deserve to be penalised. Similarly, if your target comes charging up fearless for an honourable death then they shouldn't be rewarded either.
Hear hear!

Free_Hidings
04-04-2013, 07:37 AM
Haha, you're so funny. I don't suppose me pointing out the problems with the contested kill will change your opinion now, will it?

I'm not strongly opinionated on this topic, however I already know the argument.


Like most things, there are two sides to the contested kills debate.

On the plus side, they reward a vigilant target for correctly identifying their pursuer, and simultaneously punish a reckless pursuer for being too obvious. Additionally they give the target credit for attempting a stun, where in Brotherhood that play might be left confused as they entered the stun animation only to die afterwards (and spend hours trying to learn how to "counter" stuns)

Also they can be used in game modes such as artifact assault, where a valiant sacrifice where the pursuer is wounded can be a strategic tactic that buys time for an artifact theif.




On the other hand:


The lock system as it is in AC3 (Ie Auto assist BS) means that contested kills occur more often, and frequently when an entirely different character is locked in the first place. The soft lock and auto spin stun attempts need to be put down.

Some would consider contested kills unfair as they might walk very stealthily but a pursuer identifies them and rushes them, giving little chance to do anything other than take a decreased point kill and hobble around for a bit.

Going off that point, some would also say that decreasing the points is unfair. But decreasing the points makes sense as you are hardly incognito if your pursuer is able to identify you and attempt to attack you.



The problem isn't contested kills, it's the lock system. Remove the soft lock, remove the auto aim crap, and everything will work just fine. The only other adjustment would be to consider decreasing the point penalty in certain situations (IE if pursuer is incognito and low profile, contested kill might only reduce to silent.)

Moi-dix-Mois43
04-04-2013, 09:35 AM
I'm not strongly opinionated on this topic, however I already know the argument.


Like most things, there are two sides to the contested kills debate.

On the plus side, they reward a vigilant target for correctly identifying their pursuer, and simultaneously punish a reckless pursuer for being too obvious. Additionally they give the target credit for attempting a stun, where in Brotherhood that play might be left confused as they entered the stun animation only to die afterwards (and spend hours trying to learn how to "counter" stuns)

Also they can be used in game modes such as artifact assault, where a valiant sacrifice where the pursuer is wounded can be a strategic tactic that buys time for an artifact theif.




On the other hand:


The lock system as it is in AC3 (Ie Auto assist BS) means that contested kills occur more often, and frequently when an entirely different character is locked in the first place. The soft lock and auto spin stun attempts need to be put down.

Some would consider contested kills unfair as they might walk very stealthily but a pursuer identifies them and rushes them, giving little chance to do anything other than take a decreased point kill and hobble around for a bit.

Going off that point, some would also say that decreasing the points is unfair. But decreasing the points makes sense as you are hardly incognito if your pursuer is able to identify you and attempt to attack you.



The problem isn't contested kills, it's the lock system. Remove the soft lock, remove the auto aim crap, and everything will work just fine. The only other adjustment would be to consider decreasing the point penalty in certain situations (IE if pursuer is incognito and low profile, contested kill might only reduce to silent.)

Hm. Okay, fair enough - you're not just a smart@ss xD But you still haven't addressed the people who just waltz around abusing the kill/stun button. What about them? Assuming we're working off the common sense viewpoint (such as you're hardly incognito is someone identifies and attacks you - good point) then you wouldn't just go around threatening to kill/beat up any person who came near you. What happened to trying to blend in, and stay hidden?

To be honest, the real reason I hate contested is because it seems to rewards players who just run up and get contested/discreet/reckless kills. Sounds weird, but hear me out. I hate contested because it takes a good long while to build up that godforsaken meter - even worse if all your targets are running about all around you and you have to f!cking walk from one room to another to keep from starting a chase with a person who you're not even trying to pursue. So say we start at discreet. We slowly walk up up to our target....and whoops, our blend group walked over a tripwire. But our target doesn't know which one is us, and instead just runs up mashing stun, while we mash kill, and all that hidden-incognito-would've-been-a-great-kill stuff goes out the window. Contested. 100? 250? I think it's 250. SO WHY THE HELL DID I JUST WASTE 30 SECONDS OF A FIVE MINUTE ROUND FOR A KILL I COULD'VE JUST RUN AND GOTTEN THE SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS FOR!? It's blown away, completely wasted time. The real problem is just how often it happens.

Ultimately, I think I would have to partially agree with you - the auto/soft lock stuff killed AC too, but that's another rant for another time I suppose. I'd be ok with just honorable even - that would be a solution that would keep both parties happy - it rewards the target for recognizing the pursuer and lets the pursuer be all points happy as well. Though I suppose logic goes out the window with that one. Blah. I'll tackle this one when it's not 4am.

Free_Hidings
04-04-2013, 10:57 AM
Hm. Okay, fair enough - you're not just a smart@ss xD But you still haven't addressed the people who just waltz around abusing the kill/stun button. What about them? Assuming we're working off the common sense viewpoint (such as you're hardly incognito is someone identifies and attacks you - good point) then you wouldn't just go around threatening to kill/beat up any person who came near you. What happened to trying to blend in, and stay hidden?

To be honest, the real reason I hate contested is because it seems to rewards players who just run up and get contested/discreet/reckless kills. Sounds weird, but hear me out. I hate contested because it takes a good long while to build up that godforsaken meter - even worse if all your targets are running about all around you and you have to f!cking walk from one room to another to keep from starting a chase with a person who you're not even trying to pursue. So say we start at discreet. We slowly walk up up to our target....and whoops, our blend group walked over a tripwire. But our target doesn't know which one is us, and instead just runs up mashing stun, while we mash kill, and all that hidden-incognito-would've-been-a-great-kill stuff goes out the window. Contested. 100? 250? I think it's 250. SO WHY THE HELL DID I JUST WASTE 30 SECONDS OF A FIVE MINUTE ROUND FOR A KILL I COULD'VE JUST RUN AND GOTTEN THE SAME AMOUNT OF POINTS FOR!? It's blown away, completely wasted time. The real problem is just how often it happens.

Ultimately, I think I would have to partially agree with you - the auto/soft lock stuff killed AC too, but that's another rant for another time I suppose. I'd be ok with just honorable even - that would be a solution that would keep both parties happy - it rewards the target for recognizing the pursuer and lets the pursuer be all points happy as well. Though I suppose logic goes out the window with that one. Blah. I'll tackle this one when it's not 4am.

That's the tradeoff. Stealth is a risk / reward kind of mechanic, as it should be. There is potential for very high scoring potential (let's just throw assassinate out of the discussion for now and focus on pure/ core, non gimmicky modes like wanted deathmatch and manhunt) In the 30 seconds it takes to get your stealth kill you might be able to set up a hidden incog, maybe even focus poison etc etc... Assuming the risk pays off the reward is far greater than playing it safe and going for maybe 2 discreet kills.

Anyway, I agree that the running around mashing stun and getting locked into combat is stupid. If you are not locked on / targeting your pursuer, you should not engage them under any circumstances. That's a lock or aim system problem though.



I think the best solution is some kind of compromise. Aside from the lock and aiming which desperately needs adjusting, they could lower the score penalty. After all, the approach meter levels aren't to be taken literally (Eg you can get a silent kill immediately after taunting a target, which usually involves some vocal abuse :P )

luckyto
04-04-2013, 03:49 PM
I think the best solution is some kind of compromise. Aside from the lock and aiming which desperately needs adjusting, they could lower the score penalty. After all, the approach meter levels aren't to be taken literally (Eg you can get a silent kill immediately after taunting a target, which usually involves some vocal abuse :P )


Moi, sounds like your bigger issue is RDM. I agree with Hidings here, it would simply just work better to reduce the score penalty. Simply drop the meter one notch (Incog's to Silent, Silent to Discreet, Discreet to Base).

Fixing the lock would certainly help too.

Contested Kills have created some real BS tactics. Even with the stun prompt gone, people can simply mash square whenever they see a player character with a prompt. It's still a giveaway. So unless you are disguised or your target is distracted, you likely aren't going to get an uncontested kill without roofing, knifing or OSBing.

los95361
04-05-2013, 03:41 AM
I don't mind the contested kills IF they DESERVE it(Disguising in plain site,running,etc),BUT I do mind if that person is being stealthy(Blend Group,Disguising from a safe distance,etc) and the target is just smashing square and POOF bye bye Hidden Incog or whatever bonus you where going to get.So i voted keep because the pursuers DO need to be penalized if they become obvious in their targets line of sight BUT the only drawback is the ppl who just spam the stun button and the pursuer has bui;t up Hidden Incog,etc Also the traget shouldn't be rewarded an Honorable Death if they charge up to a pursuer and try to dtun or to just give them a contested.

Eternal Reward
04-05-2013, 04:01 AM
I don't mind the contested kills IF they DESERVE it(Disguising in plain site,running,etc),BUT I do mind if that person is being stealthy(Blend Group,Disguising from a safe distance,etc) and the target is just smashing square and POOF bye bye Hidden Incog or whatever bonus you where going to get.So i voted keep because the pursuers DO need to be penalized if they become obvious in their targets line of sight BUT the only drawback is the ppl who just spam the stun button and the pursuer has bui;t up Hidden Incog,etc Also the traget shouldn't be rewarded an Honorable Death if they charge up to a pursuer and try to dtun or to just give them a contested.

If the person is genuinely unseen, then button mashing will 9 times out of 10 end with you killing an NPC, unless they locked them, which means that their either A) A good player B) Lucky C) The other player wasn't being stealthy.

As for the whole not rewarded for the charge, I don't see why not. If I have no other option besides run, I generally go for the maybe lucky stun, or contested. More points for me, less for them. Their fault for allowing me to notice them.

Eternal Reward
04-05-2013, 04:03 AM
Moi, sounds like your bigger issue is RDM. I agree with Hidings here, it would simply just work better to reduce the score penalty. Simply drop the meter one notch (Incog's to Silent, Silent to Discreet, Discreet to Base).

Fixing the lock would certainly help too.

Contested Kills have created some real BS tactics. Even with the stun prompt gone, people can simply mash square whenever they see a player character with a prompt. It's still a giveaway. So unless you are disguised or your target is distracted, you likely aren't going to get an uncontested kill without roofing, knifing or OSBing.

Since when do only players have a prompt....

los95361
04-05-2013, 04:20 AM
If the person is genuinely unseen, then button mashing will 9 times out of 10 end with you killing an NPC, unless they locked them, which means that their either A) A good player B) Lucky C) The other player wasn't being stealthy.

As for the whole not rewarded for the charge, I don't see why not. If I have no other option besides run, I generally go for the maybe lucky stun, or contested. More points for me, less for them. Their fault for allowing me to notice them.
Yea but sometimes when the pursuer goes for the kill the target that's smashing the stun button they will like slide to them because with the pursuer going in for the kill the game will think the target is attempting a stuns and boom contested.

los95361
04-05-2013, 04:25 AM
Since when do only players have a prompt....

Well if you know all the personas controlled by humans and you see one of them with a prompt over their head(if they are still in the game ) then they are your pursuer right?

Free_Hidings
04-05-2013, 04:47 AM
Often if I am playing say Deathmatch or Wanted and there is a relatively new player that is trying to be stealthy, I will let them have an uncontested kill despite knowing they are a pursuer and having them locked. I feel it is kinda sad because many experienced players are easily able to identify a pursuer in low profile as there is more to stealth than simply not running, but going for contested kills every time could be discouraging to these new players and lead them to rush killing instead (I enjoy fast paced gameplay but one of the most common complaints I see here is runners) So in this way contested kills definately discourage stealth.

Of course competitive gameplay is a whole nother story and if I am able to identify an experienced player as my pursuer you can bet your *** I will contest them :) But maybe some adjustment relative to contested kills in low profile or with a full meter could be implemented to give stealth play a bit more reward and make honourable deaths less effective.