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MasterAssasin84
04-01-2013, 10:28 PM
After reading through Forsaken again i must admit that i really warmed towards Haytham Kenway, i do not know about the rest of you but his story both tragic and very uplifting.

My perception here is Haytham in comparison to to other Templar's we have encountered in previous games had a conscience and towards the end of the book i found it quite heartwarming that he was battling with his demons and was desperate to make connection with Connor not born out of guilt but out of love. i remember reading the part were Haytham rescued Connor from his execution and thought to myself here is a man that found inner peace through the discovery of his son and the realisation that Reginald Birch betrayed the Kenways could have quite easily crossed over to his Assassin Roots ! i found during the story that Haytham carried lots of wisdom and were it not for Reginald teaching Haytham the Templar code would have made an awesome Assassin mentor.

What are your Perceptions on Haytham and your honest opinions ?

Assassin_M
04-01-2013, 10:31 PM
Haytham --------> Best Assassins Creed Character ever..

Best Villain
Best Anti-Hero
Best Father
Best Character
Best secondary protagonist

I`ll agree with you that this view would not have been possible without the Novel, because I love Connor and everyone was basically an A-hole to him except a very small amount of people...Finding out what Haytham did and thought made me appreciate Haytham so much more

FirestarLuva
04-01-2013, 10:42 PM
Haytham --------> Best Assassins Creed Character ever..

Best Villain
Best Anti-Hero
Best Father
Best Character
Best secondary protagonist

I`ll agree with you that this view would not have been possible without the Novel, because I love Connor and everyone was basically an A-hole to him except a very small amount of people...Finding out what Haytham did and thought made me appreciate Haytham so much more

I love Haytham even more after the book too. I hope we get a book for Connor as well, it would be very interesting to see his thoughts and feelings on many things, being the complex character he is. I hope the book covers TOKW as well.
For me, Connor and Haytham are probably the best AC characters. I love them both, Connor a bit more since I can relate to him, but Haytham is special too.
P.S. M, who's your favourite? :3

Assassin_M
04-01-2013, 10:46 PM
I love Haytham even more after the book too. I hope we get a book for Connor as well, it would be very interesting to see his thoughts and feelings on many things, being the complex character he is. I hope the book covers TOKW as well.
For me, Connor and Haytham are probably the best AC characters. I love them both, Connor a bit more since I can relate to him, but Haytham is special too.
P.S. M, who's your favourite? :3
Between Connor and Haytham, I can`t really say. Both are tremendously awesome characters, what makes them so special and is, in my opinion, the highlight of BOTH their characters is their interaction xD Hilarious and complex, I think it`d be very hard for Ubisoft to create something close to this relationship...

Haytham was BUILT to be likeable...so much sass xD

MasterAssasin84
04-01-2013, 10:48 PM
Haytham --------> Best Assassins Creed Character ever..

Best Villain
Best Anti-Hero
Best Father
Best Character
Best secondary protagonist

I`ll agree with you that this view would not have been possible without the Novel, because I love Connor and everyone was basically an A-hole to him except a very small amount of people...Finding out what Haytham did and thought made me appreciate Haytham so much more

You know what M this novel really opened my mind to Haytham that he is indeed a huge part of the AC timeline ! i felt that reading his memoirs from a child to fully grown man was one that was guided through life by deception and i found it really sad that when he realised that the true enemy was within it was too late fore him to renounce his vows because what i got was that his mind become filled with what if's and why's which lead to him to think would his life been better if he had taken the path his father set out for him and being as Edward Kenway was murdered it was like Haytham was ashamed of himself for not having the strength and courage to see out his fathers wishes who he clearly admired and looked up with love and respect.

Assassin_M
04-01-2013, 10:55 PM
You know what M this novel really opened my mind to Haytham that he is indeed a huge part of the AC timeline ! i felt that reading his memoirs from a child to fully grown man was one that was guided through life by deception and i found it really sad that when he realised that the true enemy was within it was too late fore him to renounce his vows because what i got was that his mind become filled with what if's and why's which lead to him to think would his life been better if he had taken the path his father set out for him and being as Edward Kenway was murdered it was like Haytham was ashamed of himself for not having the strength and courage to see out his fathers wishes who he clearly admired and looked up with love and respect.
very well put, I`d go as far as to say that maybe Haytham actually had a more tragic life than Connor...at least Connor did not fight inner demons and was sure that his path was the right one...Haytham basically knew he was in the wrong his entire life, he killed his best friend and mentor, discovered that said mentor is the one who killed his father and kidnapped his sister...it`s all just so sad..I was depressed for some time after reading the forsaken, I strongly believe that the intro to the Novel is basically us, the reader. "I can`t say I really understood him and now, I`m too late..too late to say I`m sorry"

We never knew Haytham before reading the Novel

MasterAssasin84
04-01-2013, 11:02 PM
very well put, I`d go as far as to say that maybe Haytham actually had a more tragic life than Connor...at least Connor did not fight inner demons and was sure that his path was the right one...Haytham basically knew he was in the wrong his entire life, he killed his best friend and mentor, discovered that said mentor is the one who killed his father and kidnapped his sister...it`s all just so sad..I was depressed for some time after reading the forsaken, I strongly believe that the intro to the Novel is basically us, the reader. "I can`t say I really understood him and now, I`m too late..too late to say I`m sorry"

We never knew Haytham before reading the Novel

Haytham certainly had a more tragic life than Connor, Haytham is character that certainly requires an Assassins Creed fan to open the mind and read into him .

Assassin_M
04-01-2013, 11:05 PM
Haytham is character that certainly requires an Assassins Creed fan to open the mind and read into him .
Indeed.......Just like Connor

FirestarLuva
04-01-2013, 11:08 PM
Between Connor and Haytham, I can`t really say. Both are tremendously awesome characters, what makes them so special and is, in my opinion, the highlight of BOTH their characters is their interaction xD Hilarious and complex, I think it`d be very hard for Ubisoft to create something close to this relationship...

Haytham was BUILT to be likeable...so much sass xD

I agree. It's kinda hard to choose between Connor and Haytham. Both are very awesome, yet different characters. A protagonist like Connor and antagonist/deuteragonist like Haytham will be very hard to top if you ask me. Connor is a very unique and different character, one you don't get to see in any media. Haytham may be James Bond type of character like the devs say, but still, what is it that makes him different as well? His voice, his interactions with Connor? I simply don't know.
And it gets me thinking, do we really need to torture ourselves and decide who is our favourite? Why not both? That's what the Connor and Haytham fanbase have decided together and I think is the most wise decision. :P I find AC3 a lot more enjoyable after I stopped wondering who is better. So whenever I'm in doubt, words of guidance I though out myself come to my head:
One does not simply choose between Connor and Haytham. XD Connor is different, unique, kind, brave, strong, brutal, naive, honest, sweet, cute. He's not a scholar or a playboy, or an unstoppable, flawless hero. He is a good person. Haytham is intelligent, cynical, unkind, funny, sarcastic, has a way with words, doesn't have that naive view of the world like Connor, and doesn't strike as the 100% good person. Both are different and I don't see any aspect of their character that can be measured. Same goes when people compare Altair to Ezio, or Ezio to Connor.

I-Like-Pie45
04-01-2013, 11:12 PM
R.I.P. Haytham

Assassin_M
04-01-2013, 11:17 PM
I agree. It's kinda hard to choose between Connor and Haytham. Both are very awesome, yet different characters. A protagonist like Connor and antagonist/deuteragonist like Haytham will be very hard to top if you ask me. Connor is a very unique and different character, one you don't get to see in any media. Haytham may be James Bond type of character like the devs say, but still, what is it that makes him different as well? His voice, his interactions with Connor? I simply don't know.
And it gets me thinking, do we really need to torture ourselves and decide who is our favourite? Why not both? That's what the Connor and Haytham fanbase have decided together and I think is the most wise decision. :P I find AC3 a lot more enjoyable after I stopped wondering who is better. So whenever I'm in doubt, words of guidance I though out myself come to my head:
One does not simply choose between Connor and Haytham. XD Connor is different, unique, kind, brave, strong, brutal, naive, honest, sweet, cute. He's not a scholar or a playboy, or an unstoppable, flawless hero. He is a good person. Haytham is intelligent, cynical, unkind, funny, sarcastic, has a way with words, doesn't have that naive view of the world like Connor, and doesn't strike as the 100% good person. Both are different and I don't see any aspect of their character that can be measured. Same goes when people compare Altair to Ezio, or Ezio to Connor.
Agreed so much...Why not celebrate the difference and variety in characters and stories instead of dividing a fanbase into this fans and that fans ? Oh well..

I can`t really favor Haytham over Connor or Connor over Haytham, so yes...agreed again

pacmanate
04-01-2013, 11:18 PM
I really need to read this book...

FirestarLuva
04-01-2013, 11:21 PM
very well put, I`d go as far as to say that maybe Haytham actually had a more tragic life than Connor...at least Connor did not fight inner demons and was sure that his path was the right one...Haytham basically knew he was in the wrong his entire life, he killed his best friend and mentor, discovered that said mentor is the one who killed his father and kidnapped his sister...it`s all just so sad..

I think it's too early to say who has the most tragic life. We still have yet to see what happens to Connor later on in his life. We still don't know what will happen to him at the end of TOKW. Will he die at the end, or a few years after that? Will he succumb to his powers and thread the same path and mistakes like Haytham? Will he finally admit Haytham was right all along but misread his words and join the Templars, or become the very thing he fought against for so long?
I think currently in TOKW Connor is fighting his inner demons as well. He is torn. He holds the burden of being both a native american and an assassin. After playing the betrayal I think Connor has already lost himself and his motivation. He knows all is an illusion by the Apple and instead of finding a way to leave this universe he goes after Washington to revenge his mother, even if he knows this is not real.
I think Connor's loss of who he really is is equally tragic as Haytham's inner demons.
*sob* Why do I put up with them two. They're ruining my life...but make it better the same time. :P

MasterAssasin84
04-01-2013, 11:24 PM
I really need to read this book...

You have to its a real eye opener !! Haytham is a complex character because is ideals was not really his choice rather installed into him because he had no other choice , he was guess a prisoner himself and betrayal goes very deep were it gets to the point of years of slaughter and bloodlust really take its toll on Haythams mental state and the ironic thing of all of it was knowing the existence of Connor brought back his humanity and his ability to Love. its really quite sad i really felt for the guy.

Assassin_M
04-01-2013, 11:26 PM
I think it's too early to say who has the most tragic life. We still have yet to see what happens to Connor later on in his life. We still don't know what will happen to him at the end of TOKW. Will he die at the end, or a few years after that? Will he succumb to his powers and thread the same path and mistakes like Haytham? Will he finally admit Haytham was right all along but misread his words and join the Templars, or become the very thing he fought against for so long?
I think currently in TOKW Connor is fighting his inner demons as well. He is torn. He holds the burden of being both a native american and an assassin. After playing the betrayal I think Connor has already lost himself and his motivation. He knows all is an illusion by the Apple and instead of finding a way to leave this universe he goes after Washington to revenge his mother, even if he knows this is not real.
I think Connor's loss of who he really is is equally tragic as Haytham's inner demons.
*sob* Why do I put up with them two. They're ruining my life...but make it better the same time. :P
I think it`s kinda twisted that we`re arguing who has the more tragic life :|

MasterAssasin84
04-01-2013, 11:28 PM
I think it`s kinda twisted that we`re arguing who has the more tragic life :|

I strongly dissagree that its to early to say who had the most tragic life !! we have already seen and read that Haytham's was one of tragedy betrayal and lies, Connors was tragic in a sense he lost his mother but Connor was free to make his own choices were as Haytham was not give that luxury.

Assassin_M
04-01-2013, 11:29 PM
I strongly dissagree that its to early to say who had the most tragic life !! we have already seen and read that Haytham's was one of tragedy betrayal and lies, Connors was tragic in a sense he lost his mother but Connor was free to make his own choices were as Haytham was not give that luxury.
Lets just agree that both lived a very ****ty life

pacmanate
04-01-2013, 11:30 PM
You have to its a real eye opener !! Haytham is a complex character because is ideals was not really his choice rather installed into him because he had no other choice , he was guess a prisoner himself and betrayal goes very deep were it gets to the point of years of slaughter and bloodlust really take its toll on Haythams mental state and the ironic thing of all of it was knowing the existence of Connor brought back his humanity and his ability to Love. its really quite sad i really felt for the guy.

I will download the book tomorrow :)

FirestarLuva
04-01-2013, 11:38 PM
I strongly dissagree that its to early to say who had the most tragic life !! we have already seen and read that Haytham's was one of tragedy betrayal and lies, Connors was tragic in a sense he lost his mother but Connor was free to make his own choices were as Haytham was not give that luxury.

Yes we have seen Haythams entire life, but not Connor's. We stopped at age 27. We don't even have a book about him.
And I think tragedy can't be measured. Everyone who's had a tragic life will say they suffered the most. We'll never know how the characters feel or who was hurting the most, we're making assumptions based on the things they felt, the people they lost, the mistakes they made. So, yeah, it's kinda weird to say he was more tragic, he was less. It's not the same as funny characters where you can say he was funny, he was less based on the things they say.
Let's agree both Haytham and Connor, had it rough, made mistakes, had their flaws, their doubts, their losses and that both are AWESOME!!! :DDDDDDDDDDDDDDD
P.S. Connor's tragedy was not only the loss of the people he loved. If you remember, he too was lied, betrayed beaten up, etc. In the end, like Haytham he too admitted he made mistakes. There was no one to blame for the situation he was in at the end. He did that to himself.
"In your haste to save the world boy, take care you don't destroy it". - Achilles

pacmanate
04-01-2013, 11:38 PM
Lawl got the book!

MasterAssasin84
04-01-2013, 11:41 PM
Lets just agree that both lived a very ****ty life

Tough aint the word i mean Ezio,s beginnings was tragic but the Auditore Dynasty is no were nears as tragic as the Kenway's

FirestarLuva
04-01-2013, 11:42 PM
Lawl got the book!

Enjoy! :}

MasterAssasin84
04-01-2013, 11:42 PM
Lawl got the book!

Oh you have just downloaded it !! Dude its an awesome read , IMO the most compelling Assassins Creed Story yet .

jenyto
04-02-2013, 01:22 AM
Haytham basically knew he was in the wrong his entire life, he killed his best friend and mentor

Best friend? You mean the bulldog? Holden would be his best friend and he didn't kill him.
Braddock really seemed like an jerk from the moment he met Haytham as child up to his death, so I have no idea how Haytham considered them as a good friend.
Probably some unwritten events during the time he was mentored.

Assassin_M
04-02-2013, 01:25 AM
Best friend? You mean the bulldog? Holden would be his best friend and he didn't kill him.
Braddock really seemed like an jerk from the moment he met Haytham as child up to his death, so I have no idea how Haytham considered them as a good friend.
Probably some unwritten events during the time he was mentored.
I was talking about Birch :P

Haytham considered him a great friend of his

jenyto
04-02-2013, 01:27 AM
Oh I see :P

Kaschra
04-02-2013, 02:16 AM
I loved Haytham after playing AC3 - and I love him even more after reading Forsaken. I didn't even know that was possible.

poptartz20
04-02-2013, 08:29 AM
I loved Haytham after playing AC3 - and I love him even more after reading Forsaken. I didn't even know that was possible.
Because with Haytham EVERYTHING IS POSSIBLE!

No , but really I must agree this story for me was the most compelling and complex yet! I love it.

It's just funny to me to see how you have two tragic character from the same bloodline that come out completely different. When you look at Haytham had a great life until he was 9, killed a man when, then watched his father die in front of him, and his sister kidnapped. No longer feeling loved by his mother--she because painstakingly distant. Then the rest of his story as we know it..then knowing your whole life was lead by lies. yet he still stays so Sassy!

rrebe
04-02-2013, 10:08 AM
I finally ordered this book, can't wait to read it, sounds like a good book according to this thread :)

MasterAssasin84
04-02-2013, 10:13 AM
I was talking about Birch :P

Haytham considered him a great friend of his

Greatly Ironic that Birch was his deadliest enemy within, Holden was IMO Haythams true friend i mean look what he did during Jenny' rescue in Damascus ? he was prepared to have Nuts chopped off to give safe passge for Haytham to escape, again it was very heart rendring and tragic that Holden ensured Haytham recovered fully before taking his own life, i thought portrayed the most fierce loyalty !!

Assassin_M
04-02-2013, 10:14 AM
Greatly Ironic that Birch was his deadliest enemy within, Holden was IMO Haythams true friend i mean look what he did during Jenny' rescue in Damascus ? he was prepared to have Nuts chopped off to give safe passge for Haytham to escape, again it was very heart rendring and tragic that Holden ensured Haytham recovered fully before taking his own life, i thought portrayed the most fierce loyalty !!
Well, the thing is.....He actually had his nuts chopped off...not almost...they were indeed gone :|

Assassin_M
04-02-2013, 10:15 AM
I finally ordered this book, can't wait to read it, sounds like a good book according to this thread :)
You`ll love it

MasterAssasin84
04-02-2013, 10:23 AM
Well, the thing is.....He actually had his nuts chopped off...not almost...they were indeed gone :|

Thats the point i am making....

I have great admiration for Haytham because eben though his life was one big lie and pot of betrayal it never clouded his judgement and even though he portrayed fierce loyalty to the Templar i loved the fact that he openly resepected the views from both factions and what was particularly interesting was his dream to unite Assassin and Templar for the greater good !! Haytham Kenway is a many of vison with bold ideals.

Assassin_M
04-02-2013, 10:26 AM
Thats the point i am making....

I have great admiration for Haytham because eben though his life was one big lie and pot of betrayal it never clouded his judgement and even though he portrayed fierce loyalty to the Templar i loved the fact that he openly resepected the views from both factions and what was particularly interesting was his dream to unite Assassin and Templar for the greater good !! Haytham Kenway is a many of vison with bold ideals.
Oh..sorry, I guess I just misunderstood xD

MasterAssasin84
04-02-2013, 10:27 AM
Oh..sorry, I guess I just misunderstood xD


Haha thats ok it happens :) ..... this Novel IMO has opened a whole new world in the Assassins Creed Saga and i have even took to reading through it again.

Assassin_M
04-02-2013, 10:32 AM
Haha thats ok it happens :) ..... this Novel IMO has opened a whole new world in the Assassins Creed Saga and i have even took to reading through it again.
Sometimes it`s good to read a book again..to see if you`v missed anything...

MasterAssasin84
04-02-2013, 10:34 AM
Sometimes it`s good to read a book again..to see if you`v missed anything...

I am particularly interested in his travels to Eastern Europe in pursuit of his fathers Killers with Reginald Birch, it was like the opinions clashed, from the onset Reginald seemed like a snake in the grass.

ZeldaEmblem
04-02-2013, 11:12 AM
*ordered the book*

MasterAssasin84
04-02-2013, 11:14 AM
*ordered the book*


Enjoy and i assure you that you will get sucked into Haythams Story :)

pacmanate
04-02-2013, 01:02 PM
Whose balls got cut off?!

Assassin_M
04-02-2013, 01:05 PM
Whose balls got cut off?!
Spoilers :P
you`ll see

MasterAssasin84
04-02-2013, 01:05 PM
Whose balls got cut off?!


i wont spill to much because i want you to read the Novel ;)

pacmanate
04-02-2013, 01:10 PM
Okay okay. Goodbye thread which could spoil things. x

MasterAssasin84
04-02-2013, 01:37 PM
Okay okay. Goodbye thread which could spoil things. x

Trust me it was with good intentions :D you will be pleased when you have read the novel .

Kaschra
04-02-2013, 05:13 PM
In my opinion, J. H. was Haytham closest friend. I really felt bad for the guy, after what happened to him. He was loyal to Haytham till the end.

I also really like that Haytham, too, dreamed about uniting the Templars and Assassins. But all that treachery and bloodshed put an end to this, to his idealistic self, and he grew more cruel and cold. Only after reading the book, I was really able to understand why and how Haytham changed in his later life.

lasha7716
04-02-2013, 06:41 PM
I will download the book tomorrow :)

from where? i want it too