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View Full Version : Moral Ambiguity in AC4 and whose side will it lean to?



ArabianFrost
03-21-2013, 08:51 PM
Unabated crime, failed democracy and villains becoming leaders of their own nation. I think it is pretty obvious that the Templars will once again be in the more favourable spotlight, similar to the Templars in AC3, however, the motivation of their heinous leaders will be far darker and selfish than those in AC3, who were, to some extent, selfish in their goals. One thing that maybe be different from the "freedom" fighters of AC3 , is that the pirates will be less hypocritical (slave owning, racial equality...etc.) according to what the Devs say. How do you think the moral theme in this game would turn out to be? Will the so-called "Assassin Lovers", as M calls them, finally have proper examples of in-game freedom to the people being successful in order to utilise in arguing against the Templar sheep? Sources to any mentions about historical events would be most appreciated.

Spider_Sith9
03-21-2013, 08:57 PM
Oh here we go...

Every time I hear M's infamous "Assassin Lovers" line I feel like he harbors a personal hate for them.

I think it'll be stuck in the middle or to the Templar's order. Depending on if the antagonist (who chances are will be a Templar of course) is selfish or not. That won't change the fact that AC3 already did a number on our.....weak-willed heads.

LoyalACFan
03-21-2013, 08:57 PM
I think the Templar Order will be shown somewhat favorably, and perhaps force Edward to become disillusioned with the Assassins or even defect. We know he and Birch obviously weren't on the best of terms in his later life, but Birch wasn't exactly a model Templar; he turned out to be a pretty sleazy bastard. It's possible they belonged to the same Order, and their enmity was borne solely out of personal contempt.

ArabianFrost
03-21-2013, 09:07 PM
Oh here we go...

Every time I hear M's infamous "Assassin Lovers" line I feel like he harbors a personal hate for them.

I think it'll be stuck in the middle or to the Templar's order. Depending on if the antagonist (who chances are will be a Templar of course) is selfish or not. That won't change the fact that AC3 already did a number on our.....weak-willed heads.

I think you can forgive him, as he didn't have the best experience with limitless freedom granted to the people. Also, the Devs did a **** well job at showing "control" in a very favourable spotlight, as opposed to freedom which was almost not represented at all. I mean seriously Ubisoft, the guys who manifest freedom in a game are some racial, selfish and hypocritical murderous bastards that destroyed the nation rather than renovated it. No wonder the templars seem more favourable and realistic !

Spider_Sith9
03-21-2013, 09:21 PM
I think the Templar Order will be shown somewhat favorably, and perhaps force Edward to become disillusioned with the Assassins or even defect. We know he and Birch obviously weren't on the best of terms in his later life, but Birch wasn't exactly a model Templar; he turned out to be a pretty sleazy bastard. It's possible they belonged to the same Order, and their enmity was borne solely out of personal contempt.

Agreed, I never read Forsaken and even I hated that dude when I first met him in the Opera. He just seemed like an a-hole. :P


I think you can forgive him, as he didn't have the best experience with limitless freedom granted to the people. Also, the Devs did a **** well job at showing "control" in a very favourable spotlight, as opposed to freedom which was almost not represented at all. I mean seriously Ubisoft, the guys who manifest freedom in a game are some racial, selfish and hypocritical murderous bastards that destroyed the nation rather than renovated it. No wonder the templars seem more favourable and realistic !

Agreed. Kinda reminds me of the moment Haytham had his turning point in Forsaken. It was obvious the plot was going to the Revolution and the themes fit the setting. But yes, that'd crush anyone. I just hope it doesn't turn into a political battle like the other thread.

Ubisoft intended for a Grey line. It worked too well. Rather than an Assassin/Templar split it's more Templar. Anyhoo, considering they said this game will be a more darker and gritter style. I can assume that the Assassins and the Templars won't be the best role models for their respective factions throughout the series.

ArabianFrost
03-21-2013, 09:34 PM
Agreed, I never read Forsaken and even I hated that dude when I first met him in the Opera. He just seemed like an a-hole. :P



Agreed. Kinda reminds me of the moment Haytham had his turning point in Forsaken. It was obvious the plot was going to the Revolution and the themes fit the setting. But yes, that'd crush anyone. I just hope it doesn't turn into a political battle like the other thread.

Ubisoft intended for a Grey line. It worked too well. Rather than an Assassin/Templar split it's more Templar. Anyhoo, considering they said this game will be a more darker and gritter style. I can assume that the Assassins and the Templars won't be the best role models for their respective factions throughout the series.

I don't know about both sides being equally well represented, because "failed democracy" screams either one of two things : freedom being too much of a failure or freedom being too much of an unbelievable and prosperous success that Templars couldn't afford to let the word know about its benefits, that's why they killed it. Both options are similarly unfair to the other side. I may be wrong, though.

emperior
03-22-2013, 12:36 AM
Haytham assassinates Birch... what if Haytham became an Assassin when he discovered about his father's past and had to stay a templar because TWCB ordered him to do so for Connor being the prophet? Would be cool in my opinion.

Eternal Reward
03-22-2013, 12:42 AM
Assassin's, just like every other game, even though half the time the base their beliefs off ideals that are contradictory, and condemn Templars for doing things they happily do if the need arises.

Sushiglutton
03-22-2013, 12:46 AM
I really like theidea of an early, naive, failed attempt at a democracy. Could be very interesting if Ubi goes for it. If the pirates use unacceptable means to achieve it (like robbing civilians) and Edward gets squashed between different ideals. Also, like you hinted, it could be a way to make the assassins team up with the "wrong" side. I think this game could potentially turn out great, but we shall see :).

LoyalACFan
03-22-2013, 01:40 AM
If the pirates use unacceptable means to achieve it (like robbing civilians)

I've stolen millions of florins/pounds from civilians while playing as Ezio and Connor... :rolleyes:

Eternal Reward
03-22-2013, 01:45 AM
I've stolen millions of florins/pounds from civilians while playing as Ezio and Connor... :rolleyes:

Not to mention killed a ton of guards that are just doing their job......

LoyalACFan
03-22-2013, 01:50 AM
Not to mention killed a ton of guards that are just doing their job......

The murders could be construed as necessary collateral damage in a war.

The thievery was just for me to buy some new threads at the tailor to stroke my ego :p

I-Like-Pie45
03-22-2013, 01:57 AM
I used my stolen money to lure even more civilians into a trip bomb I planted. :)

Spider_Sith9
03-22-2013, 01:59 AM
The murders could be construed as necessary collateral damage in a war.

The thievery was just for me to buy some new threads at the tailor to stroke my ego :p

Going off-topic! D:

I'm sure it'll be slightly towards the Assassins if only for the fact we no more on their side due to the fact we are the protagonist and not seeing a bunch of Templar cutscenes wasting gameplay time. The better question would be who'd we side with. I mean if Edward is a selfish jerk and the Assassins have heavily flawed ideals? That leaves the Templar's utopia because it's more favorable and realistic. The only problem is getting over their ruthlessness of achieving it which, at this point, I'm sure no one cares about due to AC3.


I used my stolen money to lure even more civilians into a trip bomb I planted. http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20120411.419/images/smilies/smile.png

Jeez! You guys are some sick Assassins! No better than the Templars! D: Maybe Desmond's right! :mad:

rob.davies2014
03-22-2013, 03:36 AM
I think we should see an Assassin mole planted in the Templar ranks either in the modern storyline or Edward's. We've had several the other way around e.g. Lucy, Cross, Herman Geier. It'd make for a very interesting and emotional Severus Snape-esque storyline.

Eternal Reward
03-22-2013, 03:40 AM
I used my stolen money to lure even more civilians into a trip bomb I planted. :)

I did the same thing with hunting.

Never got over see a bear go flying up in the air from the splosion.....

And hares are just hilarious.

Turul.
03-22-2013, 03:51 AM
I hate how people automatically associate Connor with Washington and the rest of the revolutionaries. They don't really care about Connor, he is but a pawn. Washington was the one who destroyed his village in the first place!

The founding fathers were major hypocrites, and were just as much an enemy to the idea of peace through freedom as the Templars. Sure they advocated freedom, as long as you were a white male who owned property.

It's very sad and somewhat frightening to hear such cynical nature come from these forums. So many would be willing to give up all rights for the sake of a promised equality and direction, and peace. Neither view is perfect, but at least with the Assassin's you aren't at the mercy of your boss.

LoyalACFan
03-22-2013, 04:12 AM
Was browsing around the AC wiki and found this interview.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/File:Assassin%27s_Creed_4_-_Ubisoft_Interview

Nothing really new as far as gameplay info goes, but it struck me how cagey the interviewee got when talking about Edward's affiliation. "He's a pirate trained by Assassins; he's a pirate first and foremost..." He even caught himself at one point saying "he's an As... uh, he gets drawn more and more into the doings of the Assassins..." I mean, it's like they're deliberately avoiding saying "he's an Assassin." I'm thinking more and more that Edward is never going to formally join the Order, and may grow some Templar sympathies.

pirate1802
03-22-2013, 05:16 AM
but at least with the Assassin's you aren't at the mercy of your boss.

Sure you are. Only in that case your bosses are the ones in hood with hidden blades who'll never think twice before striking you down if they deem you to be a danger to society or freedom or whatever lofty ideas they pursue.


I'm thinking more and more that Edward is never going to formally join the Order, and may grow some Templar sympathies.

That would be awesome, and a natural progression from AC3.

Spider_Sith9
03-22-2013, 05:22 AM
Was browsing around the AC wiki and found this interview.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/File:Assassin's_Creed_4_-_Ubisoft_Interview

Nothing really new as far as gameplay info goes, but it struck me how cagey the interviewee got when talking about Edward's affiliation. "He's a pirate trained by Assassins; he's a pirate first and foremost..." He even caught himself at one point saying "he's an As... uh, he gets drawn more and more into the doings of the Assassins..." I mean, it's like they're deliberately avoiding saying "he's an Assassin." I'm thinking more and more that Edward is never going to formally join the Order, and may grow some Templar sympathies.
Sounds odd considering what he is. Not to mention the Assassins weren't really prominent in AC3.


I hate how people automatically associate Connor with Washington and the rest of the revolutionaries. They don't really care about Connor, he is but a pawn. Washington was the one who destroyed his village in the first place!

The founding fathers were major hypocrites, and were just as much an enemy to the idea of peace through freedom as the Templars. Sure they advocated freedom, as long as you were a white male who owned property.

It's very sad and somewhat frightening to hear such cynical nature come from these forums. So many would be willing to give up all rights for the sake of a promised equality and direction, and peace. Neither view is perfect, but at least with the Assassin's you aren't at the mercy of your boss.
This... SO MUCH! I'd rather die before losing my freedom.....which is probably what the Templars would do. :P

ArabianFrost
03-22-2013, 08:24 AM
Not to mention killed a ton of guards that are just doing their job......

In an attempt to apologize for killing their fellow guards, I buy all the guards courtesans so they can have a nice night.

Spider_Sith9
03-22-2013, 11:27 AM
In an attempt to apologize for killing their fellow guards, I buy all the guards courtesans so they can have a nice night.

I can safely say this thread is over. :D

That said, when I'm done with the game. I kill guards just for sport. :3

ArabianFrost
03-22-2013, 01:27 PM
I can safely say this thread is over. :D

That said, when I'm done with the game. I kill guards just for sport. :3

NO. I started this thread and I decide when it dies. The Templar sheep must be sleeping and with their slumber's end, it will be revived.

Spider_Sith9
03-22-2013, 05:01 PM
NO. I started this thread and I decide when it dies. The Templar sheep must be sleeping and with their slumber's end, it will be revived.

Hence why we are talking about what we do when we play the games which decide how the Templars will be shown in a more positive light in BF.

Eh, I don't care. I want Money, Items and Killing Dudes. My main goal in the game is to look for Mar˙ke Hendrikse in Nassau and it certainly isn't Omega. If we are a selfish protagonist, might as well feel like we are in his shoes. :3

Think I'll find her?

Jexx21
08-10-2013, 12:25 AM
With our more up to date news, I think it's safe to say that while there will be a gray line between the Templars and the Assassins, Edward is definitely going to join up with the Assassin order by the end.

We already know that Edward will have contacts with both the Assassin and the Templar side, and some of the pirate hunters will be Templars.

Assassin_M
08-10-2013, 12:26 AM
some of the pirate hunters will be Templars.
Ooooh antagonists hunting criminals while protagonists take them in??

interesting

Shahkulu101
08-10-2013, 12:29 AM
I'm very intrigued about Eddies interaction with the Templar's. I wonder if he'll actually do some assassinating from the other side. I assume he cuts all ties about midway through or perhaps even the very end.

He's pretty much a physical embodiment of moral grayness.

Spider_Sith9
08-10-2013, 12:34 AM
Probably the Templars. Edward is walking scum who is a shining example of Freedom's flaws.

ArabianFrost
08-10-2013, 12:36 AM
Probably the Templars. Edward is walking scum who is a shining example of Freedom's flaws.

He's a shining example of why freedom can make people better and more responsible, even selfless.

AC2_alex
08-10-2013, 12:37 AM
Probably the Templars. Edward is walking scum who is a shining example of Freedom's flaws.

wat?

Shahkulu101
08-10-2013, 12:40 AM
Probably the Templars. Edward is walking scum who is a shining example of Freedom's flaws.

In the end he becomes a family man taking care of his children...he exploited freedom at first but realised its true value in the end. More like walking proof of how an understanding of the creed (which he attains throughout black flag) can completely change a man for the better.

Jexx21
08-10-2013, 12:40 AM
Edward's character in Forsaken was amazing for what we saw of him. Love that blond man.

Spider_Sith9
08-10-2013, 12:41 AM
He's a shining example of why freedom can make people better and more responsible, even selfless.

But he will spend most of the game out for himself. The Assassins will have no backing in this game.

Shahkulu101
08-10-2013, 12:43 AM
But he will spend most of the game out for himself. The Assassins will have no backing in this game.

How much for your crystal ball?

AC2_alex
08-10-2013, 12:44 AM
But he will spend most of the game out for himself. The Assassins will have no backing in this game.

Doesn't he flip flop between the two (Assassins and Templars)?

Jexx21
08-10-2013, 12:45 AM
100 yepa. I give you 100 yepa for your crystal ball.

Spider_Sith9
08-10-2013, 12:46 AM
Doesn't he flip flop between the two (Assassins and Templars)?

Yeah.

Shahkulu101
08-10-2013, 12:48 AM
Doesn't he flip flop between the two (Assassins and Templars)?

Sounds exciting, doesn't it?

Shahkulu101
08-10-2013, 12:48 AM
100 yepa. I give you 100 yepa for your crystal ball.

I give you my wife and 2 goats for your signature.

AC2_alex
08-10-2013, 12:50 AM
Sounds exciting, doesn't it?

Well, yes. Yes it does.

Jexx21
08-10-2013, 12:51 AM
That's a better deal than the last time! Someone just took my signature! That was a sad day indeed.

But no deal. I like my signature.

AC2_alex
08-10-2013, 12:52 AM
That's a better deal than the last time! Someone just took my signature! That was a sad day indeed.

But no deal. I like my signature.

your sig is cooolio

Shahkulu101
08-10-2013, 12:52 AM
That's a better deal than the last time! Someone just took my signature! That was a sad day indeed.

But no deal. I like my signature.

Did you make the banner yourself?

Jexx21
08-10-2013, 01:09 AM
No. The original one was taken from a screen shot of the ACInitiates log in page. They just recently released wallpapers on the AC facebook page, and I took this latest image from something designed to be a facebook cover photo. I cropped it, modified the image so it would take up less memory, and uploaded it.

I don't have the necessary skills to create banners. :P

Shahkulu101
08-10-2013, 01:11 AM
No. The original one was taken from a screen shot of the ACInitiates log in page. They just recently released wallpapers on the AC facebook page, and I took this latest image from something designed to be a facebook cover photo. I cropped it, modified the image so it would take up less memory, and uploaded it.

I don't have the necessary skills to create banners. :P

So can I use the image pweeeeez?

Jexx21
08-10-2013, 01:14 AM
Well, yea. It's not mine to control. It's on the AC facebook page if you want to edit it yourself.

Just, don't use the text I have below it without asking. Someone did that before (and that's what I meant by someone stealing my signature).

Shahkulu101
08-10-2013, 01:17 AM
Well, yea. It's not mine to control. It's on the AC facebook page if you want to edit it yourself.

Just, don't use the text I have below it without asking. Someone did that before (and that's what I meant by someone stealing my signature).

Yeah, no worries.

adventurewomen
08-10-2013, 01:18 AM
One word for AC4 in regards to this thread..... Pirates!


:D

Spider_Sith9
08-10-2013, 01:32 AM
One word for AC3 in regards to this thread..... Pirates!


:D

You mean AC4?

Also, don't derail.

Jexx21
08-10-2013, 01:38 AM
She wasn't derailing. Don't be a mongrel, Charles.

adventurewomen
08-10-2013, 01:42 AM
You mean AC4?

Also, don't derail.
I was typing in the Dark, so typos happen. I wasn't derailing. I just changed my typo.


She wasn't derailing. Don't be a mongrel, Charles.
Thank you. :)

Spider_Sith9
08-10-2013, 01:48 AM
I was typing in the Dark, so typos happen. I wasn't derailing. I just changed my typo.


Thank you. :)

Sorry, I was talking about the others. I'll contain myself.

pirate1802
08-10-2013, 04:00 AM
Sounds exciting, doesn't it?

NooOo it sounds horrendous. I want my Assassins to be the shining beacons of virtues, not criminals and selfish scumbags!

Legendz54
08-10-2013, 05:10 AM
NooOo it sounds horrendous. I want my Assassins to be the shining beacons of virtues, not criminals and selfish scumbags!

Whats even more exciting is watching an Assassin turn from a selfish scumbag to a wise man who understands the creed. I am pretty sure that is what we will be seeing in AC4.