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Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 09:35 PM
So, I've managed to get a pretty good grasp of both sides philosophies from re-watching a lot of the death speeches, things Ezio, Altair, Connor, Achilles and all the other bazillion Assassins say, and listening to Haytham especially.

And my conclusion is.......

The Assassins make no sense.

First off, for anyone who played AC3, Connor is a complete lightweight when it comes to philosophy. His responses are generally a long the lines of "Nu uh!", which frustrated me SO MUCH when I was playing AC3, because most of the death speeches were quite deep. Even friggen womanizer drunken crime lord Hicky had something very interesting to say!

What I'm getting at is the Assassins philosophy is order through freedom, but that makes no sense.

See, freedom is a great concept, but have any of you thought of how bad absolute freedom would be? It would be anarchy. And as you can guess, anarchy is generally not associated with order....

See what I'm getting at? The Assassins entire mindset is based off of getting more and more freedom for people. But that is NOT always a good thing. Order through control, and not total control mind you, just some control, WORKS. Look at our societies today.

Also, if we are to believe Assassins Creed lore, the Templars started winning the war into the twentieth-twenty-first century.....which is when huge advance in societies and cultures started.....

And, for those that will say "The Templars are bad because they kill innocents, and the Assassins don't!", first off the Assassins do things that will inevitably end in the deaths of innocents, and the idea that you can change the world for the better, fix the world, and NOT kill innocents is simply naive.

So...yeah. There is my spiel.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 09:36 PM
So, I've managed to get a pretty good grasp of both sides philosophies from re-watching a lot of the death speeches, things Ezio, Altair, Connor, Achilles and all the other bazillion Assassins say, and listening to Haytham especially.

And my conclusion is.......

The Assassins make no sense.

First off, for anyone who played AC3, Connor is a complete lightweight when it comes to philosophy. His responses are generally a long the lines of "Nu uh!", which frustrated me SO MUCH when I was playing AC3, because most of the death speeches were quite deep. Even friggen womanizer drunken crime lord Hicky had something very interesting to say!

What I'm getting at is the Assassins philosophy is order through freedom, but that makes no sense.

See, freedom is a great concept, but have any of you thought of how bad absolute freedom would be? It would be anarchy. And as you can guess, anarchy is generally not associated with order....

See what I'm getting at? The Assassins entire mindset is based off of getting more and more freedom for people. But that is NOT always a good thing. Order through control, and not total control mind you, just some control, WORKS. Look at our societies today.

Also, if we are to believe Assassins Creed lore, the Templars started winning the war into the twentieth-twenty-first century.....which is when huge advance in societies and cultures started.....

And, for those that will say "The Templars are bad because they kill innocents, and the Assassins don't!", first off the Assassins do things that will inevitably end in the deaths of innocents, and the idea that you can change the world for the better, fix the world, and NOT kill innocents is simply naive.

So...yeah. There is my spiel.

Fellow "Assassins are Idiots" here..

Agreed with everything..I wish you luck in argunig with all the Assassin lovers who`ll come here....good luck in trying to make a point

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 09:39 PM
Fellow "Assassins are Idiots" here..

Agreed with everything..I wish you luck in argunig with all the Assassin lovers who`ll come here....good luck in trying to make a point

Assassin-lovers? Is that what you call them,

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 09:42 PM
Assassin-lovers? Is that what you call them,

Eh....didnt find any other polite word for it:p

ana 3aref ennak Assassin lover bs m3lesh b2a xD

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 09:42 PM
Basically, the only thing Assassins have going for them is they can jump into hay bales in a nifty way, and look cool with white hoods.

dxsxhxcx
03-15-2013, 09:44 PM
from what I remember the Assassins fight for free will and not order, free will to choose whatever you want to do, if the decisions made by people are good or bad this doesn't matter, they want people to have free will and be able to make these choices, they don't fight for a perfect world (like the Templars), they fight for a world where humans will be able to choose which kind of world they want..

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 09:45 PM
they fight for a world where humans will be able to choose which kind of world they want..

I dont want to quote Garnier`s entire death speech, but all in all "That`s just ridiculous" -Garnier

SixKeys
03-15-2013, 09:45 PM
OP: you got the assassin philosophy wrong. It's not "order through freedom", it's "peace through freedom". The Templar philosophy is "peace through order".

Basically the assassins are advocates of democracy while the Templars are for dictatorship. Assassins don't advocate anarchy, they advocate people having the choice to make their own decisions, however flawed. If you live in a democratic country where you are allowed to be part of the voting process etc., that's what the assassins strive for. Whereas North Korea is an example of something close to the Templar ideology: loyalty towards a (perceived) benevolent dictator who decides what is best for all people. Freedom to vote for someone else would be removed because according to the Templars most people are idiots who don't know what's good for them, so they need to be led by people who think they know better.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 09:47 PM
OP: you got the assassin philosophy wrong. It's not "order through freedom", it's "peace through freedom". The Templar philosophy is "peace through order".

Basically the assassins are advocates of democracy while the Templars are for dictatorship. Assassins don't advocate anarchy, they advocate people having the choice to make their own decisions, however flawed. If you live in a democratic country where you are allowed to be part of the voting process etc., that's what the assassins strive for. Whereas North Korea is an example of something close to the Templar ideology: loyalty towards a (perceived) benevolent dictator who decides what is best for all people. Freedom to vote for someone else would be removed because according to the Templars most people are idiots who don't know what's good for them, so they need to be led by people who think they know better.
Go get em, Eternal, but allow me to say this...

Funny you say that since the US, a democracy, is ruled by the Templars

D.I.D.
03-15-2013, 09:50 PM
And as you can guess, anarchy is generally not associated with order....

Yes it is. There are many varieties of anarchy, but the most popular forms prescribe order through the will of the people. That means that instead of our illusion of democracy, where we vote for individuals to represent thousands of people and a party to represent millions and trust them to do an okay job for four years (and anyone in the USA should be aware that gerrymandering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering) is somehow still legal in your country, which makes a joke of democracy), an anarchist society would vote on major issues. You'd have referendums all the time, and a society that keeps a very careful watch on order. It does not mean there would be no power - you'd still have police and courts - but the people would be the authority.

Then there's the BS "anarchy" that right-leaning democracies talk about on the news, which is an insult to the dictionary. The people who misuse the word have the least faith in human nature, as if the presence of the current style of authority is the only thing preventing you all from ripping each other apart. You know in your heart that's not true. We're nice to people because it's normal to be nice.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 09:50 PM
So, I've managed to get a pretty good grasp of both sides philosophies from re-watching a lot of the death speeches, things Ezio, Altair, Connor, Achilles and all the other bazillion Assassins say, and listening to Haytham especially.

And my conclusion is.......

The Assassins make no sense.

First off, for anyone who played AC3, Connor is a complete lightweight when it comes to philosophy. His responses are generally a long the lines of "Nu uh!", which frustrated me SO MUCH when I was playing AC3, because most of the death speeches were quite deep. Even friggen womanizer drunken crime lord Hicky had something very interesting to say!

What I'm getting at is the Assassins philosophy is order through freedom, but that makes no sense.

See, freedom is a great concept, but have any of you thought of how bad absolute freedom would be? It would be anarchy. And as you can guess, anarchy is generally not associated with order....

See what I'm getting at? The Assassins entire mindset is based off of getting more and more freedom for people. But that is NOT always a good thing. Order through control, and not total control mind you, just some control, WORKS. Look at our societies today.

Also, if we are to believe Assassins Creed lore, the Templars started winning the war into the twentieth-twenty-first century.....which is when huge advance in societies and cultures started.....



And, for those that will say "The Templars are bad because they kill innocents, and the Assassins don't!", first off the Assassins do things that will inevitably end in the deaths of innocents, and the idea that you can change the world for the better, fix the world, and NOT kill innocents is simply naive.

So...yeah. There is my spiel.

First of all, I am not some assassin idealist, so let's put that aside. Assassins do not believe in complete freedom, but rather guided freedom, hence why they have mentors, masters, HQs and a Creed by which the assassins abide, so it's certainly not this sort of anarchic freedom.
As for the killing innocents, before anyone kills me, it's SOMEWHAT of a more condemned act by the assassins hence the tenet that says "stay your blade from the innocent". They still do kill people, they still are idiots, but having a tenet about not killing innocents certainly does win the assassins points in the innocent murders. This is just speculation, but assassin actions probably have less casualties than templars. So basically, it's not that assassins kill less innocent people but it's the fact that they condemn it which makes a difference.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 09:52 PM
OP: you got the assassin philosophy wrong. It's not "order through freedom", it's "peace through freedom". The Templar philosophy is "peace through order".

Basically the assassins are advocates of democracy while the Templars are for dictatorship. Assassins don't advocate anarchy, they advocate people having the choice to make their own decisions, however flawed. If you live in a democratic country where you are allowed to be part of the voting process etc., that's what the assassins strive for. Whereas North Korea is an example of something close to the Templar ideology: loyalty towards a (perceived) benevolent dictator who decides what is best for all people. Freedom to vote for someone else would be removed because according to the Templars most people are idiots who don't know what's good for them, so they need to be led by people who think they know better.

First, I would say that the Assassins ultimate world would be a world of anarchy. Why? Democracy has people controlling you. Freedom means nobody controls you. No one has any hold on you. Including your peers. Democracy gives control to you and your peers, or the people they elect, taking freedom from you. Any form of state does that. Therefore, Assassins wanting absolute freedom and choice means their ideal world would be one of Anarchy.

Now, with the Templars, its completely different. All they need is peace through order. They don't HAVE to have a dictatorship. In fact, I'm sure they would be happy with any form of government that can provide order. Heck, they would probably be fine with anarchy if it had a guarantee of order and peace.

The thing is, order and peace are almost the same thing. One cannot exist without the other. I mean, you can hardly have peace in chaos, now can you?

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 09:54 PM
Yes it is. There are many varieties of anarchy, but the most popular forms prescribe order through the will of the people. That means that instead of our illusion of democracy, where we vote for individuals to represent thousands of people and a party to represent millions and trust them to do an okay job for four years (and anyone in the USA should be aware that gerrymandering (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering) is somehow still legal in your country, which makes a joke of democracy) an anarchist society would vote on major issues. You'd have referendums all the time, and a society that keeps a very careful watch on order. It does not mean there would be no power - you'd still have police and courts - but the people would be the authority.

Then there's the BS "anarchy" that right-leaning democracies talk about on the news, which is an insult to the dictionary. The people who misuse the word have the least faith in human nature, as if the presence of the current style of authority is the only thing preventing you all from ripping each other apart. You know in your heart that's not true. We're nice to people because it's normal to be nice.

Humans naturally do bad. We aren't intrinsically good. I mean, you don't have to teach a kid to be bad, now do you?

Farlander1991
03-15-2013, 09:54 PM
Eh, both groups are equally naive idealists. Yes, Assassins are naive idealists because they think that humanity is going to evolve enough that, given freedom, no one will rape, pillage, burn and everybody is going to be respectful towards one another. So their ideology is... kinda naive. But so is the Templars'. For all their talk of how they're 'realistic' and 'view the world as it is', peace through total control is as naive as is peace through freedom. Do you seriously think that the Templars will always be benevolent dictators thinking about peace and happiness of everybody who lives there? No, sooner or later there will be some bastard who's obsessed with power (as Borgia clearly showed us). And everything will crumble to pieces. Every order gets corrupted (as evidenced quite clearly by our society, which is something both Assassins and Templars strive to fix), even the one that's going to be set up by the Templars.

Church may be a bastard, but he's a pragmatic person. In fact, he's the most realistic person out of all, which is why he betrayed the Templar's cause (and their dream, as Haytham has put it) and left the order - the Templar endeavour is as foolish as the Assassins'.

So, really, the conflict of Assassins vs. Templars is of one group of dreamers against another group of dreamers. Both want greater and better future for humanity, both are doomed for failure due to human nature.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 09:55 PM
Eh....didnt find any other polite word for it:p

ana 3aref ennak Assassin lover bs m3lesh b2a xD

Ba2a ehna ne3mel thawra 3ashan tege te2ole "walahe el templars helween we 2ata2eet". Tela2ek kharoof ekhwani :P

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 09:58 PM
Eh, both groups are equally naive idealists. Yes, Assassins are naive idealists because they think that humanity is going to evolve enough that, given freedom, no one will rape, pillage, burn and everybody is going to be respectful towards one another. So their ideology is... kinda naive. But so is the Templars'. For all their talk of how they're 'realistic' and 'view the world as it is', peace through total control is as naive as is peace through freedom. Do you seriously think that the Templars will always be benevolent dictators thinking about peace and happiness of everybody who lives there? No, sooner or later there will be some bastard who's obsessed with power (as Borgia clearly showed us). And everything will crumble to pieces. Every order gets corrupted (as evidenced quite clearly by our society, which is something both Assassins and Templars strive to fix), even the one that's going to be set up by the Templars.

Church may be a bastard, but he's a pragmatic person. In fact, he's the most realistic person out of all, which is why he betrayed the Templar's cause (and their dream, as Haytham has put it) and left the order - the Templar endeavour is as foolish as the Assassins'.

So, really, the conflict of Assassins vs. Templars is of one group of dreamers against another group of dreamers. Both want greater and better future for humanity, both are doomed for failure due to human nature.

Thats the thing with the Templars though. It's peace through order, not necessarily total control. As long as there is order, they are fine with any form of government.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 09:58 PM
First of all, I am not some assassin idealist, so let's put that aside. Assassins do not believe in complete freedom, but rather guided freedom, hence why they have mentors, masters, HQs and a Creed by which the assassins abide, so it's certainly not this sort of anarchic freedom.
As for the killing innocents, before anyone kills me, it's SOMEWHAT of a more condemned act by the assassins hence the tenet that says "stay your blade from the innocent". They still do kill people, they still are idiots, but having a tenet about not killing innocents certainly does win the assassins points in the innocent murders. This is just speculation, but assassin actions probably have less casualties than templars. So basically, it's not that assassins kill less innocent people but it's the fact that they condemn it which makes a difference.

As for me, freedom seems to be bullocks and naive .benevolent dictatorships are awesome.

I'm kinda not getting your overall point.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 10:00 PM
Eh, both groups are equally naive idealists. Yes, Assassins are naive idealists because they think that humanity is going to evolve enough that, given freedom, no one will rape, pillage, burn and everybody is going to be respectful towards one another. So their ideology is... kinda naive. But so is the Templars'. For all their talk of how they're 'realistic' and 'view the world as it is', peace through total control is as naive as is peace through freedom. Do you seriously think that the Templars will always be benevolent dictators thinking about peace and happiness of everybody who lives there? No, sooner or later there will be some bastard who's obsessed with power (as Borgia clearly showed us). And everything will crumble to pieces. Every order gets corrupted (as evidenced quite clearly by our society, which is something both Assassins and Templars strive to fix).

Church may be a bastard, but he's a pragmatic person. In fact, he's the most realistic person out of all, which is why he betrayed the Templar's cause (and their dream, as Haytham has put it) and left the order - the Templar endeavour is as foolish as the Assassins'.

So, really, the conflict of Assassins vs. Templars is of one group of dreamers against another group of dreamers. Both want greater and better future for humanity, both are doomed for failure due to human nature.

Just remember that no single person represents Templars. They rule together, so no matter what, this whole dictatorship remains benevolent. They are sort of like those who came before, but more mortal.

Farlander1991
03-15-2013, 10:01 PM
Thats the thing with the Templars though. It's peace through order, not necessarily total control. As long as there is order, they are fine with any form of government.

No, it's peace through THEIR order. There's a motif in their ideology, 'better we hold the strings than another', 'better we control the people than another'. They're NOT fine with any government, because governments are corrupt, governments strive for increasing their power and getting more lands and resources, leading to wars and whatnot. However, they'll be fine with THEIR government, which means that everything is going to be controlled by the Templars. But as any form of government or rulership, it will also get corrupted, sooner or later.


Just remember that no single person represents Templars. They rule together, so no matter what, this whole dictatorship remains benevolent. They are sort of like those who came before, but more mortal.

No it won't. Have someone like Borgia poison all the other idealistic Templars, and whoala. Everything they strived for crumbled :p ;)

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 10:03 PM
I'm kinda not getting your overall point.

Disregard the last two sentences. Overall point, that it's not total freedom in which assassins believe and that assassins are generally better in terms of innocent killings, because they have tenets against such things.

Bashilir
03-15-2013, 10:05 PM
Gonna have to go with neither. Assassins have a silly goal of expecting mankind to just do perfect with no laws or anything, and the Templars think no one is smart enough to do things on their own so they want complete dictatorship/order. Honestly, does anyone want either of these? I don't want a world where everyone is ordered around nor do I want a world which will end up going into complete chaos, eventually.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:05 PM
No, it's peace through THEIR order. There's a motif in their ideology, 'better we hold the strings than another', 'better we control the people than another'. They're NOT fine with any government, because governments are corrupt, governments strive for increasing their power and getting more lands and resources, leading to wars and whatnot. However, they'll be fine with THEIR government, which means that everything is going to be controlled by the Templars. But as any form of government or rulership, it will also get corrupted, sooner or later.

Which is where they start over. I think Haytham himself says that its not the best scenario, but its the most realistic one.

And what we're assuming here is that its not exactly the comically "bad guy" villains from the previous Assassins Creeds. I'm speaking more on the more modern ones.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:07 PM
Disregard the last two sentences. Overall point, that it's not total freedom in which assassins believe and that assassins are generally better in terms of innocent killings, because they have tenets against such things.

I dunno if Assassins don't believe in total freedom. They don't believe it for their order, since they need to it combat the Templars, but thats their ultimate goal.

SixKeys
03-15-2013, 10:07 PM
The thing is, order and peace are almost the same thing. One cannot exist without the other. I mean, you can hardly have peace in chaos, now can you?

I'm sure most people would agree North Korea is pretty good on order and control. Yet we have King Jong Un declaring war on almost every nation out there.

The version of "order" that the Templars advocate (in the AC universe, obviously) is literally mind control. Not "just a bit of control" as you suggest, but actual, physical mind control. That was the entire purpose of the Eye Abstergo satellite and why Abstergo is so hell-bent on getting their hands on the PoEs. Whenever the assassins get their hands on one, they do their best to hide the pieces away where they can't be misused. When the Templars get their hands on one, they take every opportunity to use their powers to enslave people.

It's not true that the Templars would be happy with any kind of government that can provide order. Otherwise they might as well have backed the American patriots and provided them with the necessary resources and tactical minds to help form a new government. Instead they were afraid of change, and chose to back the British loyalists instead because that was an order that had been established earlier and proven to work on some level. Basically, the assassins saw the potential that a new, independent government could have if given the chance. The Templars saw an attempt doomed to fail, so they fought to uphold the status quo instead. History proved the assassins right; if they hadn't intervened, America might not have won its independence. It was a risky chance to fight for the freedom of this colony, but it paid off afterwards through all the advances the American culture would go on to contribute to the world.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 10:10 PM
.



No it won't. Have someone like Borgia poison all the other idealistic Templars, and whoala. Everything they strived for crumbled :p ;)

Eventually, the templars got their **** together, so generally they aren't that bad. And you call that half-naked guy with boobies an idealistic Templar?

Farlander1991
03-15-2013, 10:10 PM
Which is where they start over.

Which just proves that what Templars (including Haytham, who actually didn't really contemplate about the Templar order failing, at least in the game) want is unachievable.


And what we're assuming here is that its not exactly the comically "bad guy" villains from the previous Assassins Creeds. I'm speaking more on the more modern ones.

Well, when I say 'Borgia', I mean Rodrigo, not Cesare. Rodrigo may be a very one-sided villain, but people like him exist. If you want a more grey example, there's Al Mualim who orchestrated the defeat and death of all his Templar brethren, to remain alone with the Apple and bring peace to the lands through his control.

SixKeys
03-15-2013, 10:14 PM
Well, when I say 'Borgia', I mean Rodrigo, not Cesare. Rodrigo may be a very one-sided villain, but people like him exist. If you want a more grey example, there's Al Mualim who orchestrated the defeat and death of all his Templar brethren, to remain alone with the Apple and bring peace to the lands through his control.

Exactly. The Templars may want peace through control, but the problem will always be that it is their own, personal version of "order". It only takes one madman who thinks HIS version of order is better than someone else's to corrupt the whole movement.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:17 PM
I'm sure most people would agree North Korea is pretty good on order and control. Yet we have King Jong Un declaring war on almost every nation out there.

The version of "order" that the Templars advocate (in the AC universe, obviously) is literally mind control. Not "just a bit of control" as you suggest, but actual, physical mind control. That was the entire purpose of the Eye Abstergo satellite and why Abstergo is so hell-bent on getting their hands on the PoEs. Whenever the assassins get their hands on one, they do their best to hide the pieces away where they can't be misused. When the Templars get their hands on one, they take every opportunity to use their powers to enslave people.

It's not true that the Templars would be happy with any kind of government that can provide order. Otherwise they might as well have backed the American patriots and provided them with the necessary resources and tactical minds to help form a new government. Instead they were afraid of change, and chose to back the British loyalists instead because that was an order that had been established earlier and proven to work on some level. Basically, the assassins saw the potential that a new, independent government could have if given the chance. The Templars saw an attempt doomed to fail, so they fought to uphold the status quo instead. History proved the assassins right; if they hadn't intervened, America might not have won its independence. It was a risky chance to fight for the freedom of this colony, but it paid off afterwards through all the advances the American culture would go on to contribute to the world.

Though, we have absolutely no idea what would have happened if it hadn't become a nation....\

But that aside, the Templars were actually for and against the US in some ways. They basically wanted to shepard it into existence, while they were killed off by Connor basically because he had a vendetta against them.

And, we have no idea what the Templars do to control people. I know THEIR not perfect. I'm saying their philosophy is superior.

I know that in the games a lot of Templars are comically evil. But their actions alone don't mean much. just because the Assassins happened to help the US become a nation doesn't mean much.

I'm merely pointing out the superiority in practice of their philosophies.

SixKeys
03-15-2013, 10:18 PM
I still don't see how literal mind control is a better philosophy than democracy.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:23 PM
I still don't see how literal mind control is a better philosophy than democracy.

Peace through order =/= mind control.

And I already stated how the Assassins philosophy = no government ultimately.

D.I.D.
03-15-2013, 10:24 PM
Humans naturally do bad. We aren't intrinsically good. I mean, you don't have to teach a kid to be bad, now do you?

That's arguable. Our environment encourages us to be bad, and children pick up on concepts about being rich or poor very quickly. Some environments encourage us to be very bad.

Besides, I'm not saying that everything about our psychology is purely innate. I don't think a human is humanity. We're a communal creature, and we work together amazingly well. It makes sense to have laws that restrict ownership of weapons because they seem to encourage accidents and aggravate violent incidents into even worse events, but as far as my general behaviour goes, I'm not doing no harm to my neighbours because of what the government would do to me if I did. I don't do it because I don't want to hurt anyone.

That's true for most of us, or we'd be living in a much worse world.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 10:25 PM
A bit side-tracking. If any sides achieve their nave goal of peace through whatever the hell they believe in, what will happen next? Will humanity just magically ditch all ideals of war and combat? Can humans completely forget its sometimes violent nature? Would we really change that much if we have total peace? What does peace even mean ? Is it no two countries having a conflict? Is it no two kids having a conflict? Why even fight for something that is so vague and so unrealistic?

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:27 PM
A bit side-tracking. If any sides achieve their nave goal of peace through whatever the hell they believe in, what will happen next? Will humanity just magically ditch all ideals of war and combat? Can humans completely forget its sometimes violent nature? Would we really change that much if we have total peace? What does peace even mean ? Is it no two countries having a conflict? Is it no two kids having a conflict? Why even fight for something that is so vague and so unrealistic?

Because we naturally need something to strive for. I honestly doubt we will ever be able to achieve any of our "ends". I'm pretty sure nobody really believes they will.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:27 PM
That's arguable. Our environment encourages us to be bad, and children pick up on concepts about being rich or poor very quickly. Some environments encourage us to be very bad.

Besides, I'm not saying that everything about our psychology is purely innate. I don't think a human is humanity. We're a communal creature, and we work together amazingly well. It makes sense to have laws that restrict ownership of weapons because they seem to encourage accidents and aggravate violent incidents into even worse events, but as far as my general behaviour goes, I'm not doing no harm to my neighbours because of what the government would do to me if I did. I don't do it because I don't want to hurt anyone.

That's true for most of us, or we'd be living in a much worse world.

I dunno, I could think of plenty of times when it was simply societal acceptance and the consequences that stopped me from harming someone.

Bashilir
03-15-2013, 10:28 PM
Peace through order =/= mind control.

And I already stated how the Assassins philosophy = no government ultimately.

Their Order IS through mind control.

Farlander1991
03-15-2013, 10:28 PM
A bit side-tracking. If any sides achieve their nave goal of peace through whatever the hell they believe in, what will happen next? Will humanity just magically ditch all ideals of war and combat? Can humans completely forget its sometimes violent nature? Would we really change that much if we have total peace? What does peace even mean ? Is it no two countries having a conflict? Is it no two kids having a conflict? Why even fight for something that is so vague and so unrealistic?

Well... this is one form of peace:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gbbedjykh70

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:29 PM
Their Order IS through mind control.

Not necessarily.

and like I said, I'm not condoning a lot of what goes on in the games. I speaking of the general philosophies.

TheHumanTowel
03-15-2013, 10:30 PM
Though, we have absolutely no idea what would have happened if it hadn't become a nation....\

But that aside, the Templars were actually for and against the US in some ways. They basically wanted to shepard it into existence, while they were killed off by Connor basically because he had a vendetta against them.

And, we have no idea what the Templars do to control people. I know THEIR not perfect. I'm saying their philosophy is superior.

I know that in the games a lot of Templars are comically evil. But their actions alone don't mean much. just because the Assassins happened to help the US become a nation doesn't mean much.

I'm merely pointing out the superiority in practice of their philosophies.
The Templar philosophy may be more practically achievable than the Assassins although as others have pointed out still fundamentally unattainable it's clear that the Assassins world view is the more ethical. Being practical does not make it the superiour world view. The Templars are elitists who think they should be able to dictate what is right onto everyone. Who are they to decide they know best for all of humanity? They are willing to use actual mind control to force people to obey them. The assassins' philosophy that people should be able to make their own decisions is obviously far more preferable than a world under the Templars.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 10:31 PM
I still don't see how literal mind control is a better philosophy than democracy.

I don't condone mind control, but democracy itself is something that can't shouldn't be applied everywhere at any time, as is evidence by the idiocy happening here in Egypt, with the ignorant majority being the voice. Unfortunately, democracy gives power to the majority and not those who bring on the most benefits (not necessarily benevolent). Like it or not, benevolent dictatorship will remain a better choice, despite the possible flaws, until all are ACTUALLY entitled to their opinion, which is impossible, because people are generally moulded by their surrounding environment, so they are almost always a reflection of their background rather than a reflection of their own constructed ideas, which leads us to believe that there isn't even such a thing as freedom in belief. Good this may have been really confusing. I am sorry.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:31 PM
The Templar philosophy may be more practically achievable than the Assassins although as others have pointed out still fundamentally unattainable it's clear that the Assassins world view is the more ethical. Being practical does not make it the superiour world view. The Templars are elitists who think they should be able to dictate what is right onto everyone. Who are they to decide they know best for all of humanity? They are willing to use actual mind control to force people to obey them. The assassins' philosophy that people should be able to make their own decisions is obviously far more preferable than a world under the Templars.

Except it doesn't work in practice. Ethical is pointless if it doesn't work. It would be great if we could just hug all our enemies til they didn't fight us anymore, but that doesn't work.

But hey, its more ethical right?

Sushiglutton
03-15-2013, 10:34 PM
Best political system known to me is democracy combined with strong individual rights (right to property, freedom of speech etc). Given how governments were in the eras/settings AC games has taken place so far, I believe the Assassins want to move things in the right direction. I'm no expert on Assassin ideology (nor do I care that much tbh), so I don't know what their ultimate goal is. I don't want anarchy if that's what they want. But as long as they are trying to push society in the right direction I'll take them over the templars.

But in the real world I would obv never support an organization that uses violence as their only political method.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:35 PM
I don't condone mind control, but democracy itself is something that can't shouldn't be applied everywhere at any time, as is evidence by the idiocy happening here in Egypt, with the ignorant majority being the voice. Unfortunately, democracy gives power to the majority and not those who bring on the most benefits (not necessarily benevolent). Like it or not, benevolent dictatorship will remain a better choice, despite the possible flaws, until all are ACTUALLY entitled to their opinion, which is impossible, because people are generally moulded by their surrounding environment, so they are almost always a reflection of their background rather than a reflection of their own constructed ideas, which leads us to believe that there isn't even such a thing as freedom in belief. Good this may have been really confusing. I am sorry.

yeah, I was actually gonna bring Egypt up as an example of how Democracy =/= good.

It sometimes is good but in short its mob rule....which isn't good.

Sushiglutton
03-15-2013, 10:37 PM
yeah, I was actually gonna bring Egypt up as an example of how Democracy =/= good.

It sometimes is good but in short its mob rule....which isn't good.

It must be combined with a constitution that guarantees individual rights. Otherwise the majority might oppress a minority.

Farlander1991
03-15-2013, 10:38 PM
Except it doesn't work in practical. Ethical is pointless if it doesn't work. It would be great if we could just hug all our enemies til they didn't fight us anymore, but that doesn't work.

But hey, its more ethical right?

Except Templar philosophy, while sounding more practical, also doesn't work.

If they just create their own form of government, then their philosophy WILL crumble. Because even then, wars won't stop. There will be unhappy people who try to rebel. There still will be crime and descent and suffering in their own country, because that's just who we are as a whole. Without an actual way to prevent all that, the Templars WILL fail. And they've found a way. The Apple. Get rid of free will and make everybody happy. But the Templars themselves will still have THEIR free will, and you know what that means? That, as SixKeys put it, somebody will try to put THEIR vision of the order on, and... yes, that will lead to Templars failing.

Bashilir
03-15-2013, 10:38 PM
Except it doesn't work in practice. Ethical is pointless if it doesn't work. It would be great if we could just hug all our enemies til they didn't fight us anymore, but that doesn't work.

But hey, its more ethical right?


Just because Mind Control works doesn't mean it should be used. Yeah, sure it'd be great if we could hug put enemies, but does putting everyone under mind control seem any better?

TheHumanTowel
03-15-2013, 10:41 PM
It must be combined with a constitution that guarantees individual rights. Otherwise the majority might oppress the minority.
As opposed to the minority oppressing the majority which is what the Templars propose.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:41 PM
Except Templar philosophy, while sounding more practical, also doesn't work.

If they just create their own form of government, then their philosophy WILL crumble. Because even then, wars won't stop. There will be unhappy people who try to rebel. There still will be crime and descent and suffering in their own country, because that's just who we are as a whole. Without an actual way to prevent all that, the Templars WILL fail. And they've found a way. The Apple. Get rid of free will and make everybody happy. But the Templars themselves will still have THEIR free will, and you know what that means? That, as SixKeys put it, somebody will try to put THEIR vision of the order on, and... yes, that will lead to Templars failing.

Which is why I pointed out I don't believe they will ever achieve their ultimate goal, but I de believe that their option will always be the best. Why? Because, at the end of the day being right is subjective. Unless someone does force their ideals on someone else, nothing is gonna get done. No governments, no societies. Freedom only goes so far.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:42 PM
As opposed to the minority oppressing the majority which is what the Templars propose.

Actually we don't know if the Templars are the minority or the majority. We don't know at all......

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:43 PM
Just because Mind Control works doesn't mean it should be used. Yeah, sure it'd be great if we could hug put enemies, but does putting everyone under mind control seem any better?

I never said it necessarily was, though mind control can be many things, like indoctrination, or society conforming people.

Eternal Reward
03-15-2013, 10:44 PM
Well, while this is interesting, I do have to go for a little while. I will be back soon to continue the fight.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 10:45 PM
It must be combined with a constitution that guarantees individual rights. Otherwise the majority might oppress a minority.

What would a constitution ever do if the president is a bloody ****ing moron? From my life here in Egypt, I can tell you one thing for sure, benevolent dictatorship first, education second, constitution third then an elected leader at the final stage. The people simply cannot create any constitution or democracy unless educated correctly in an unbiased atmosphere.

Sushiglutton
03-15-2013, 10:47 PM
As opposed to the minority oppressing the majority which is what the Templars propose.

That is even worse perhaps, but both are terrible. The Assassins are obv not for a dictatorship of the majority. My point was just that democracy in itself is not enough. It's only when combined with a constitution you get a true liberal democracy (the best system known to man imo). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberal_democracy

TheHumanTowel
03-15-2013, 10:47 PM
Actually we don't know if the Templars are the minority or the majority. We don't know at all......
I'm confused. The whole point of the Templars is a small group forcing their world view on the common people for their own good. They're elitists and the elite can't be the majority.

D.I.D.
03-15-2013, 10:50 PM
I dunno, I could think of plenty of times when it was simply societal acceptance and the consequences that stopped me from harming someone.

Sure, there's going to be a certain amount of that going on. Every animal has these social problems. I don't think these tendencies are a good argument for why we accept the laughable degree of involvement we're allowed in our societies today, though. Some societies loudly proclaim the concept of "freedom", and I think that sends a very confused message. "Agency" is more important, and we don't have enough of that. Democratic governments fear referendums, with some justification, because a society must be educated and engaged with the issues to make good decisions. They maintain their grip on power by giving us the impression that a true democracy would result in mob rule and irrationality, so the fearful middle class keeps them in place in a tacit agreement that only certain people are qualified to make good decisions. Never mind that they make awful decisions, and sell off things that don't belong to them to other minority powers in the commercial markets.

Our current model of democracy is showing some interesting signs. Many people would agree that the post-war years have shown that even a capitalist democracy works better when it enshrines socialist ideas: workers' rights, income support, nationalised free heathcare and education. We're seeing the first stirrings of how the internet is altering the ability of people to discover and broadcast their opinions as a nation, which sometimes halts a policy on Tuesday after it was announced on Monday. Despite the justifiable mockery from some corners about "clicktivists", real street demonstrations are happening in greater size and numbers than they were ten years ago. I'd say these stirrings could be the first stages of some societies moving towards a kind of anarchy, and that's not necessarily something of which we should be afraid.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 10:54 PM
Ba2a ehna ne3mel thawra 3ashan tege te2ole "walahe el templars helween we 2ata2eet". Tela2ek kharoof ekhwani :P
la ya 3m 3eb 3alek e5wan eh bs xD

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 10:58 PM
la ya 3m 3eb 3alek e5wan eh bs xD

Asl ya 3am el ekhwan da5len geded fel templars badal el hag Hossny, fa shaket enak menhom ba3d kalamak el keter 3an el templars. Ento felol ya cabten?

SixKeys
03-15-2013, 11:00 PM
Peace through order =/= mind control.

And I already stated how the Assassins philosophy = no government ultimately.

But it IS mind control. In the fictional universe that we are discussing right now, the Templar ideology is literally, physically controlling people's minds with alien* technology. In the same universe, the assassin philosophy is democracy, not freedom from any and all forms of government or authority. The assassins actually have helped people whose ideologies they agree with to rise to power, like the new Doge of Venice after the previous one was killed by Templars. If they resisted any forms of government, they wouldn't have any political allies.



* I know they're not technically aliens, but let's not get sidetracked.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 11:02 PM
I'm confused. The whole point of the Templars is a small group forcing their world view on the common people for their own good. They're elitists and the elite can't be the majority.

No, they force their opinion on the world because they want humanity to advance and progress, but think "free-will" is getting in their way. They are not completely selfish when it comes to the spoils although the likes of Cesare were an exception. Cesare is always the exception when it comes to Templars.

SixKeys
03-15-2013, 11:05 PM
I don't even see Cesare as a Templar. I think he was only being used by Rodrigo because of his military prowess, but Cesare never cared about the Templar ideology.

HeedfulMass4856
03-15-2013, 11:05 PM
Um, anarchy is freedom. What we currently have is similar to what the Templars want to instill in the game - Order. Anarchy is the way it should be. If you, me, or anyone else dies in the process of anarchy, so be it. I would rather have anarchy/freedom than government/oppression/Order. It's the natural way of things - the way things should be.

So yeah, I'm more of an Assassin. At the end of the day, the Templars or just a group of individuals who use their ideals and philosophy to cover up what they truly are - a group a power-hungry individuals.

TheHumanTowel
03-15-2013, 11:07 PM
No, they force their opinion on the world because they want humanity to advance and progress, but think "free-will" is getting in their way. They are not completely selfish when it comes to the spoils although the likes of Cesare were an exception. Cesare is always the exception when it comes to Templars.
That doesn't contradict what I said. They are a minority group by their very nature.

SixKeys
03-15-2013, 11:07 PM
Um, anarchy is freedom. What we currently have is similar to what the Templars want to instill in the game - Order. Anarchy is the way it should be. If you, me, or anyone else dies in the process of anarchy, so be it. I would rather have anarchy/freedom than government/oppression/Order. It's the natural way of things - the way things should be.

So then you would also forfeit your rights to being protected by law enforcement or your health being tended to by medically trained professionals, institutions which are upheld by the government?

Sushiglutton
03-15-2013, 11:08 PM
Sure, there's going to be a certain amount of that going on. Every animal has these social problems. I don't think these tendencies are a good argument for why we accept the laughable degree of involvement we're allowed in our societies today, though. Some societies loudly proclaim the concept of "freedom", and I think that sends a very confused message. "Agency" is more important, and we don't have enough of that. Democratic governments fear referendums, with some justification, because a society must be educated and engaged with the issues to make good decisions. They maintain their grip on power by giving us the impression that a true democracy would result in mob rule and irrationality, so the fearful middle class keeps them in place in a tacit agreement that only certain people are qualified to make good decisions. Never mind that they make awful decisions, and sell off things that don't belong to them to other minority powers in the commercial markets.

Our current model of democracy is showing some interesting signs. Many people would agree that the post-war years have shown that even a capitalist democracy works better when it enshrines socialist ideas: workers' rights, income support, nationalised free heathcare and education. We're seeing the first stirrings of how the internet is altering the ability of people to discover and broadcast their opinions as a nation, which sometimes halts a policy on Tuesday after it was announced on Monday. Despite the justifiable mockery from some corners about "clicktivists", real street demonstrations are happening in greater size and numbers than they were ten years ago. I'd say these stirrings could be the first stages of some societies moving towards a kind of anarchy, and that's not necessarily something of which we should be afraid.

When you say that "They maintain their grip of power" who are "They"? In a democracy there are several parties competing for power so there is no "They". Also since everyone is free to start their own parties or participate in one of the established ones, evryone can easily become "They".

If the public voted on every single issue I think it would be a mess. It would be very hard to make a balanced budget for one. Also all the time everyone would have to spend to read up on every issue and then form an educated opinion would be a waste of resources. If there was an election between such a system and a representative democracy I have a feeling the latter would win.

D.I.D.
03-15-2013, 11:11 PM
No, they force their opinion on the world because they want humanity to advance and progress, but think "free-will" is getting in their way. They are not completely selfish when it comes to the spoils although the likes of Cesare were an exception. Cesare is always the exception when it comes to Templars.

Well no, that's where the poor writing shows its faults. They never should have introduced this "sympathy for the Templars" line into AC. It would have been fine if they'd done it from the beginning, and if they had then they could have made sure that neither side was responsible for the very worst aspects of human history.

As it was, they made the Templars guilty of slavery, all fascism through human history including Nazism, McCarthyism, Stalinism, and even in the most recent games they had the Templars inserting hidden horrific technology into desirable consumer goods and infecting the brains of babies. If they're going to be that dramatic about the villains, they can't handwave and say, "Oooooh, but, what if the bad guys aren't so bad? What if they're decent people with good intentions?". Unfortunately these writers really think they're blowing people's minds with moralistic duality, when in fact all they've done is spin a tale so convoluted that the players forget about Hitler and all the rest of it.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 11:12 PM
That doesn't contradict what I said. They are a minority group by their very nature.

My mistake. When you said "for their own good", I though you meant for the good of the Templars and not the people.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 11:19 PM
Asl ya 3am el ekhwan da5len geded fel templars badal el hag Hossny, fa shaket enak menhom ba3d kalamak el keter 3an el templars. Ento felol ya cabten?
la ya 3m wala flool oksem bellah astaghferoallah el 3azim :P

homma el templars bs 7elween xP

HeedfulMass4856
03-15-2013, 11:24 PM
So then you would also forfeit your rights to being protected by law enforcement or your health being tended to by medically trained professionals, institutions which are upheld by the government?
Yes! I thought I would have clarified that when I said "If you, me, or anyone dies in the process..." All of that is disrupting the natural order. I utterly despise the government; it should NOT be here. All of that is a part of advancement, which also causes more cause "chaos" for future generations. Humans are so ignorant to their own ideals. What they call peace, the animals of the wild may call "chaos". We are very quick to get the definition man has made for the word "peace" confused with the real thing. Peace, by all means, could be what we call "chaos". The sad thing is, we'll never... ever know what the true meaning of peace is... because of governments and the like. They have come in with their own Order, from the beginning of times, and have disrupted the natural way of things.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 11:25 PM
Well no, that's where the poor writing shows its faults. They never should have introduced this "sympathy for the Templars" line into AC. It would have been fine if they'd done it from the beginning, and if they had then they could have made sure that neither side was responsible for the very worst aspects of human history.

As it was, they made the Templars guilty of slavery, all fascism through human history including Nazism, McCarthyism, Stalinism, and even in the most recent games they had the Templars inserting hidden horrific technology into desirable consumer goods and infecting the brains of babies. If they're going to be that dramatic about the villains, they can't handwave and say, "Oooooh, but, what if the bad guys aren't so bad? What if they're decent people with good intentions?". Unfortunately these writers really think they're blowing people's minds with moralistic duality, when in fact all they've done is spin a tale so convoluted that the players forget about Hitler and all the rest of it.

Even then, many of these horrific people wanted their countries to advance, as evident by the scientific revolution in Nazi Germany, so Hitler was more of a Cesare type of guy, no matter the consequences, so this aligns with what I said about human progression. Even then, these seem more like plotholes and unexplained occurrences, because unlike what some might think, this fictional assassin vs Templar war cannot be applied to real history, which explains why this organisation that seems like some master of a global monopoly cannot entirely fit into our history, because assassins and templar were not always necessarily the government itself.

Sushiglutton
03-15-2013, 11:27 PM
Since I don't know any Egyptian irl, and I'm curious of the situation there, may I ask the two of you what you think will happen? Is Egypt moving towards a dictatorship, chaotic democraty, or a semi-functional democracy? What role will religion play? How is the situation for human/individual rights? What will happen to minorities like the coptic orthodox? Are people scared of what will happen?

Sorry if any of this is offensive or sensitive. I'm just an ignorant, curious western!

D.I.D.
03-15-2013, 11:27 PM
When you say that "They maintain their grip of power" who are "They"? In a democracy there are several parties competing for power so there is no "They". Also since everyone is free to start their own parties or participate in one of the established ones, evryone can easily become "They".

If the public voted on every single issue I think it would be a mess. It would be very hard to make a balanced budget for one. Also all the time everyone would have to spend to read up on every issue and then form an educated opinion would be a waste of resources. If there was an election between such a system and a representative democracy I have a feeling the latter would win.

There's a political class, a political establishment, in almost all modern democracies. My current government is made up of a coalition of two opposing parties, and a surprising number of their members attended the same private schools and the same universities. The bulk of people with real power come from a very narrow band of society but in this case, I'm counting "them" as everyone who is currently employed in that system and wants it to remain as it is, no matter what background they sprang from.

I'm not saying the public have to vote on every single issue, and few anarchists would regard that as being possible in a nation of millions either (though many argue that you should, but you simply never form a single society of such unwieldy size). I'm not an anarchist. It still bugs me when people conflate "anarchy" with "chaos" when that's not what it means. Football fans riot and burn cars, and the news will call it "anarchy". I think there are good ideas from many corners of political thinking, and many countries are in a slow process of pulling those ideals together.

I strongly believe that people can and should have a good understanding of as many issues as they possibly can. I think that's what people are trying to do when they encounter a news service that's more informative than the one they were reading, and why people will return every day to learn more things. Not everyone will want to engage with it, so the conversation will lose their voices, but I strongly believe that disinterest is something that's been bred into us over generations. People have deliberately propagated the idea that intelligence is suspicious and the domain of an elite, and a real salt-of-the-earth man or woman is proud to not know that stuff. I don't think it has to be that way.

My country's democracy won't let me tick a box to abstain, which allows a poor turnout to be blamed on voter apathy, and further cements the idea that people simply don't care so let's carry on as we are. Our Conservative masters fooled their Liberal colleagues into a coalition pact on the promise that there would be a fair referendum to change our enormously flawed "first past the post" voting system for one where we rank votes for one or more candidates, and then the Tories sold them down the river. I think it's got a long way to go before this kind of democracy is representational at all.

TheHumanTowel
03-15-2013, 11:28 PM
Yes! I thought I would have clarified that when I said "If you, me, or anyone dies in the process..." All of that is disrupting the natural order. I utterly despise the government; it should NOT be here. All of that is a part of advancement, which also causes more cause "chaos" for future generations. Humans are so ignorant to their own ideals. What they call peace, the animals of the wild may call "chaos". We are very quick to get the definition man has made for the word "peace" confused with the real thing. Peace, by all means, could be what we call "chaos". The sad thing is, we'll never... ever know what the true meaning of peace is... because of governments and the like. They have come in with their own Order, from the beginning of times, and have disrupted the natural way of things.
I don't see how reverting back to lawless chaos is "advancement".

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 11:31 PM
la ya 3m wala flool oksem bellah astaghferoallah el 3azim :P

homma el templars bs 7elween xP

Wehyat sha3r Hamdeen Sabahy we liberaleyet Amr Hamzawy mah helween. Yemken enta taba3 el thawra el modada? Wala el Templars bardo nazlo ma3 el thawra fe mawke3et el gamal? Walahe ana mafahem haga menak. Enta ensan ghamed el saraha.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 11:31 PM
la ya 3m wala flool oksem bellah astaghferoallah el 3azim :P

homma el templars bs 7elween xP

Wehyat sha3r Hamdeen Sabahy we liberaleyet Amr Hamzawy mah helween. Yemken enta taba3 el thawra el modada? Wala el Templars bardo nazlo ma3 el thawra fe mawke3et el gamal? Walahe ana mafahem haga menak. Enta ensan ghamed el saraha.

HeedfulMass4856
03-15-2013, 11:35 PM
I don't see how reverting back to lawless chaos is "advancement".

Where in that quote did I say that? Please show me; I've looked for a few minutes now, and I still can't see where I said that.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 11:37 PM
Since I don't know any Egyptian irl, and I'm curious of the situation there, may I ask the two of you what you think will happen? Is Egypt moving towards a dictatorship, chaotic democraty, or a semi-functional democracy? What role will religion play? How is the situation for human/individual rights? What will happen to minorities like the coptic orthodox? Are people scared of what will happen?

Sorry if any of this is offensive or sensitive. I'm just an ignorant, curious western!
Well....I`ll give my view and I`ll let Arabic give you his.

it`s absolutely, positively impossible for the country to move back to a dictatorship; there are those of course who`re fine, or were fine, with it, but generally, if another dictatorship were to ever happen, they`d have to kill the entire people of the country.

Democracy is not possible as of now, but technically we are a democracy since our president came by public vote, but all those are just themes. yay so we`re a democracy, but everything is going to crap; the economy is falling, the Major party is taking over every syndicate in the country and most people are not happy about being called infidels for not voting for the muslim brotherhood.

I`d say a civil war is likely, and necessary, to break out soon. Lets be honest here, the revolution was a failure. We never took over anything after toppling the former president. we left everything to the army generals who were appointed by the former president. Who in the world starts a revolt and does not take over the media ? -_- (I`m guilty of this as well...although I was with the minority during the revolt to take over government buildings, but eh)

Religion has always and will play a part in the formation of this country. it`s literally buried in the roots and that`s not necessarily a bad thing, it`s bad when a coaltation of bearded men pronounce themselves as morally higher individuals than everyone else..

The Christians are the ones mostly scared yeah, but this`ll end soon enough...it`s not only the Christians who`ll remove this president, though...that i`m sure of and none of this offensive.. don't be silly :P

TheHumanTowel
03-15-2013, 11:37 PM
Where in that quote did I say that? Please show me; I've looked for a few minutes now, and I still can't see where I said that.
All that talk of governments getting in the way of the "natural order".

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 11:38 PM
Wehyat sha3r Hamdeen Sabahy we liberaleyet Amr Hamzawy mah helween. Yemken enta taba3 el thawra el modada? Wala el Templars bardo nazlo ma3 el thawra fe mawke3et el gamal? Walahe ana mafahem haga menak. Enta ensan ghamed el saraha.
ya 3m estana bs...faker...lamma haytham ankaz el ragel el zengi fil 3asefa 3l safena ?? aho tyeb aho :P

HeedfulMass4856
03-15-2013, 11:40 PM
All that talk of governments getting in the way of the "natural order".

You are correct; government is getting in the way of natural order, but how, pray-tell, does that mean " reverting back to lawless chaos is "advancement"." You're not making a bit of sense.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 11:42 PM
Well....I`ll give my view and I`ll let Arabic give you his.

it`s absolutely, positively impossible for the country to move back to a dictatorship; there are those of course who`re fine, or were fine, with it, but generally, if another dictatorship were to ever happen, they`d have to kill the entire people of the country.

Democracy is not possible as of now, but technically we are a democracy since our president came by public vote, but all those are just themes. yay so we`re a democracy, but everything is going to crap; the economy is falling, the Major party is taking over every syndicate in the country and most people are not happy about being called infidels for not voting for the muslim brotherhood.

I`d say a civil war is likely, and necessary, to break out soon. Lets be honest here, the revolution was a failure. We never took over anything after toppling the former president. we left everything to the army generals who were appointed by the former president. Who in the world starts a revolt and does not take over the media ? -_- (I`m guilty of this as well...although I was with the minority during the revolt to take over government buildings, but eh)

Religion has always and will play a part in the formation of this country. it`s literally buried in the roots and that`s not necessarily a bad thing, it`s bad when a coaltation of bearded men pronounce themselves as morally higher individuals than everyone else..

The Christians are the ones mostly scared yeah, but this`ll end soon enough...it`s not only the Christians who`ll remove this president, though...that i`m sure of and none of this offensive.. don't be silly :P

Ya ellahe. Ma kol hazehe el khebra wa al 3akleya el faza. Howa enta ghaleban black block.

TheHumanTowel
03-15-2013, 11:43 PM
You are correct; government is getting in the way of natural order, but how, pray-tell, does that mean " reverting back to lawless chaos is "advancement"." You're not making a bit of sense.
Explain what the natural order is then. And how governments are getting in the way of this by providing you with healthcare and protection.

Sushiglutton
03-15-2013, 11:44 PM
There's a political class, a political establishment, in almost all modern democracies. My current government is made up of a coalition of two opposing parties, and a surprising number of their members attended the same private schools and the same universities. The bulk of people with real power come from a very narrow band of society but in this case, I'm counting "them" as everyone who is currently employed in that system and wants it to remain as it is, no matter what background they sprang from.

I'm not saying the public have to vote on every single issue, and few anarchists would regard that as being possible in a nation of millions either (though many argue that you should, but you simply never form a single society of such unwieldy size). I'm not an anarchist. It still bugs me when people conflate "anarchy" with "chaos" when that's not what it means. Football fans riot and burn cars, and the news will call it "anarchy". I think there are good ideas from many corners of political thinking, and many countries are in a slow process of pulling those ideals together.

I strongly believe that people can and should have a good understanding of as many issues as they possibly can. I think that's what people are trying to do when they encounter a news service that's more informative than the one they were reading, and why people will return every day to learn more things. Not everyone will want to engage with it, so the conversation will lose their voices, but I strongly believe that disinterest is something that's been bred into us over generations. People have deliberately propagated the idea that intelligence is suspicious and the domain of an elite, and a real salt-of-the-earth man or woman is proud to not know that stuff. I don't think it has to be that way.

My country's democracy won't let me tick a box to abstain, which allows a poor turnout to be blamed on voter apathy, and further cements the idea that people simply don't care so let's carry on as we are. Our Conservative masters fooled their Liberal colleagues into a coalition pact on the promise that there would be a fair election to change our enormously flawed "first past the post" voting system for one where we rank votes for one or more candidates, and then sold them down the river. I think it's got a long way to go before this kind of democracy is representational at all.


I think the political culture in Sweden is much better than in Great Britain in this regard. There is some kind of political elite I suppose, but it's relatively easy to break into. We also have a different election system which leads to more parties in the parliament (currently eight). There is a new party elected to the parliament every 15 year or so (unfortunately last time it was a fascist party :( ), which also leads to a more transparent and vital democracy.

I guess there is many ways to define "anarchy" and many different forms of it. If it's total lawlessness than that would mean chaos. But you can obv have a more moderate form of it. I think alomst everyone wants the public to know as much as possible. I mean we have public, obligatory education for one. And like I said everyone is free to educate themselves for example by joining a party and so on. Most people tend to choose not to though. I don't think this disinterest is something that "the government" consciously has tried to impose on people. It could be a cultural thing that is possible to change, but it's a long time prospect.

I'm have nothing in principal against more referendums, just as I have nothing in principal against a representative democracy. The exact balance between the two perhaps should change. And like you said new technology makes it easier for the public to participate. One has to be careful how to implement it though. People tend to like spending more than saving and so on.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 11:45 PM
Ya ellahe. Ma kol hazehe el khebra wa al 3akleya el faza. Howa enta ghaleban black block.
tb mayenfa3sh akoon bani2adam tabi3i ?? :P

sawri 3adi y3ni xD

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 11:45 PM
ya 3m estana bs...faker...lamma haytham ankaz el ragel el zengi fil 3asefa 3l safena ?? aho tyeb aho :P

Yabne Haytham aslan ankaz tenen moganah men el safena, mesh cabten Maged el zengi. We ba3den ta3ne we had ye ajf akisa fkA...... el3ab sewede we da5t hahahahaha. Afashat aflam we keda ba2a. Omal oltele akhbar el haga eh? Lesa fel mehwar?

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 11:46 PM
Lesa fel mehwar?
Hahahaha enta 3ndk shk ? xP

rob.davies2014
03-15-2013, 11:49 PM
The way I understand it, peace isn't the Assassins' main goal, though they're not against it. They're main goal is freedom even if that loses peace. I think what Connor said about freedom being peace is stupid.

ArabianFrost
03-15-2013, 11:54 PM
Well....I`ll give my view and I`ll let Arabic give you his.

it`s absolutely, positively impossible for the country to move back to a dictatorship; there are those of course who`re fine, or were fine, with it, but generally, if another dictatorship were to ever happen, they`d have to kill the entire people of the country.

Democracy is not possible as of now, but technically we are a democracy since our president came by public vote, but all those are just themes. yay so we`re a democracy, but everything is going to crap; the economy is falling, the Major party is taking over every syndicate in the country and most people are not happy about being called infidels for not voting for the muslim brotherhood.

I`d say a civil war is likely, and necessary, to break out soon. Lets be honest here, the revolution was a failure. We never took over anything after toppling the former president. we left everything to the army generals who were appointed by the former president. Who in the world starts a revolt and does not take over the media ? -_- (I`m guilty of this as well...although I was with the minority during the revolt to take over government buildings, but eh)

Religion has always and will play a part in the formation of this country. it`s literally buried in the roots and that`s not necessarily a bad thing, it`s bad when a coaltation of bearded men pronounce themselves as morally higher individuals than everyone else..

The Christians are the ones mostly scared yeah, but this`ll end soon enough...it`s not only the Christians who`ll remove this president, though...that i`m sure of and none of this offensive.. don't be silly :P

I do agree with most of what he says except the whole "we need a civil war to kill all the muslim brotherhood fundies" a) it's not a civil war the liberal parties will win. b) it will likely end with the 3rd and more powerful force acquiring leadership, which is the military, that won't leave the country to be democratic again after the first failed trial, so here we go again. c) Good luck eradicating all those radicals, they'll eventually re-appear like the radical southerners in America (they are radical right). d) The country is already in turmoil, this will make it almost impossible for the country to rebound. The only solution is for, somehow, a benevolent dictator with great leadership and managing skills to lead us (via UN voting maybe?). Then after 60 years, when all future generations are educated and the people know right from wrong and how to decide for themselves rather than on a bunch of hypocrites that destroy the public image of religion, then might democracy be re-introduced.

D.I.D.
03-15-2013, 11:57 PM
I think the political culture in Sweden is much better than in Great Britain in this regard. There is some kind of political elite I suppose, but it's relatively easy to break into. We also have a different election system which leads to more parties in the parliament (currently eight). There is a new party elected to the parliament every 15 year or so (unfortunately last time it was a fascist party :( ), which also leads to a more transparent and vital democracy.

Absolutely. A lot of us in the UK are hopeful of creating something better, and Sweden is one of the countries we would point to in order to demonstrate an improvement on our antiquated ways.


I guess there is many ways to define "anarchy" and many different forms of it. If it's total lawlessness than that would mean chaos. But you can obv have a more moderate form of it. I think alomst everyone wants the public to know as much as possible. I mean we have public, obligatory education for one. And like I said everyone is free to educate themselves for example by joining a party and so on. Most people tend to choose not to though. I don't think this disinterest is something that "the government" consciously has tried to impose on people. It could be a cultural thing that is possible to change, but it's a long time prospect.

Oh yes, I agree. I don't think the governments are responsible for the anti-intellectual slant that is especially strong in the US and UK, but I don't think they've got a lot of interest in changing it either! This is certainly something that we've all done to ourselves, and our entertainment media only reflects that (but I would say that in doing so, they at least partially reinforce it).


I'm have nothing in principal against more referendums, just as I have nothing in principal against a representative democracy. The exact balance between the two perhaps should change. And like you said new technology makes it easier for the public to participate. One has to be careful how to implement it though. People tend to like spending more than saving and so on.

Yeah, the outcomes won't always be desirable. I'm just very frustrated by the torpor of a culture that pays lip service to the notion of democracy, but in truth fears it. There is danger: the media must be healthy and relatively free from commercial and state pressure, for example, but I can't think of anything that could go wrong in a stronger democracy that couldn't go wrong in the UK right now. We've had a very volatile situation for a number of years where a few different extremist parties have had sudden surges of support, and not even first-past-the-post can hold that back forever. I think we'd have more stability with proportional representation, so that people could register support for an extremist party without necessarily handing their entire vote to them.

HeedfulMass4856
03-15-2013, 11:57 PM
Explain what the natural order is then. And how governments are getting in the way of this by providing you with healthcare and protection.

There is a natural order to this world, and governments, since ancient times, have upended the natural order and replaced it with what they call order, where we are expected to follow the laws of one man or a group of men. Mankind wasn't made to be commanded. We are not dogs! That's why there is rebellion. Rebellion proves that mankind ultimately cannot follow the laws of one man or a group of men; it is just the way we are created. That's the fault in Haythem's quote. He said something about the rebel's freedom being the cause of rebellion, when in fact, the British are the ones who caused the Revolutionary War through oppression... through government. The rebel's actions were a sign that there was a natural order to things. Their resolve, however, after the war, was just a product of them being oppressed by government; they created their own government (America), which to this day, has caused more "undying" chaos than it has anything. Yes, chaos has different differentiations: one being a product of government, the other being the product of natural order, which would have lead to true peace, something mankind will never know of because the first differentiation of peace is being upheld by mankind. In a nutshell, governmental chaos is undying while natural order is what would've lead to true peace, but we will never understand how because governmental chaos is being upheld.

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 12:02 AM
tb mayenfa3sh akoon bani2adam tabi3i ya3ne :P
sawri 3adi y3ni xD




www.youtube.com/watch?v=1H-gAMccM0k

Hahaha sawre tabe3e. Ya a5e bas matkhalenesh a3ayat 3ala el thawra el et3amalaha gang bang deh.

Sushiglutton
03-16-2013, 12:03 AM
Well....I`ll give my view and I`ll let Arabic give you his.

it`s absolutely, positively impossible for the country to move back to a dictatorship; there are those of course who`re fine, or were fine, with it, but generally, if another dictatorship were to ever happen, they`d have to kill the entire people of the country.

Democracy is not possible as of now, but technically we are a democracy since our president came by public vote, but all those are just themes. yay so we`re a democracy, but everything is going to crap; the economy is falling, the Major party is taking over every syndicate in the country and most people are not happy about being called infidels for not voting for the muslim brotherhood.

I`d say a civil war is likely, and necessary, to break out soon. Lets be honest here, the revolution was a failure. We never took over anything after toppling the former president. we left everything to the army generals who were appointed by the former president. Who in the world starts a revolt and does not take over the media ? -_- (I`m guilty of this as well...although I was with the minority during the revolt to take over government buildings, but eh)

Religion has always and will play a part in the formation of this country. it`s literally buried in the roots and that`s not necessarily a bad thing, it`s bad when a coaltation of bearded men pronounce themselves as morally higher individuals than everyone else..

The Christians are the ones mostly scared yeah, but this`ll end soon enough...it`s not only the Christians who`ll remove this president, though...that i`m sure of and none of this offensive.. don't be silly :P

Thank you!

It does sound pretty grim :(. Is the Muslim Brotherhood taking over syndicates for themselves, or for the government? Other parties are still allowed, no? I take it that media is not free to report? I guess the economy is failing due to no tourism. No chance the people can tough it out until stability, and with it tourists, returns? In a civil war isn't there a huge risk that the good forces would get massacred by the more militant ones?

About religion, I'm so accustomed to the idea that government and religion should not mix under any circumstances. It's one of the cornerstones of our society. It's impoortant to guarantee that individuals have the right to choose their own life. Also to prevent discrimination (not that Sweden is anywhere perfect in this regard, but I still think it's better than if religion was intertwined with the government). But there is obv more or less tolerant religious states also.

Overall you sound pretty pessimistic :(.

TheHumanTowel
03-16-2013, 12:05 AM
There is a natural order to this world, and governments, since ancient times, have upended the natural order and replaced it with what they call order, where we are expected to follow the laws of one man or a group of men. Mankind wasn't made to be commanded. We are not dogs! That's why there is rebellion. Rebellion proves that mankind ultimately cannot follow the laws of one man or a group of men; it is just the way we are created. That's the fault in Haythem's quote. He said something about the rebel's freedom being the cause of rebellion, when in fact, the British are the ones who caused the Revolutionary War through oppression... through government. The rebel's actions were a sign that there was a natural order to things. Their resolve, however, after the war, was just a product of them being oppressed by government; they created their own government (America), which to this day, has caused more "undying" chaos than it has anything. Yes, chaos has different differentiations: one being a product of government, the other being the product of natural order, which would have lead to true peace, something mankind will never know of because the first differentiation of peace is being upheld by mankind. In a nutshell, governmental chaos is undying while natural order is what would've lead to true peace, but we will never understand how because governmental chaos is being upheld.
Wouldn't the fact that governments and societal structures have been prevalent and persistent since ancient times and across the world be a sign that the natural order you're talking about isn't so natural after all?

inferno33222
03-16-2013, 12:08 AM
First, I would say that the Assassins ultimate world would be a world of anarchy. Why? Democracy has people controlling you. Freedom means nobody controls you. No one has any hold on you. Including your peers. Democracy gives control to you and your peers, or the people they elect, taking freedom from you. Any form of state does that. Therefore, Assassins wanting absolute freedom and choice means their ideal world would be one of Anarchy.

The Assassin's ideal world is, of course, one without a government, where people are naturally good, but this is not what they fight for. They understand it is irrational. That is why Altair doesn't go around killing the leaders of Damascus or Jerusalem or the leaders of any religions. It's why Ezio doesn't kill Caterina Sforza and is why he's friends with Lorenzo de' Medici and Suleiman. It's also why Connor is friends with Sam Adams, Paul Revere, and George Washington, and why he helps to encourage Washington to become a great leader.

The Assassins are not opposed to leadership or order. Heck, they are part of the Assassin Order, with a Creed and a Mentor. Altair said that to Richard that "it falls to men like you(leaders) to do what is right". The Assassins do not despise government. Connor supported the new American government. The Assassins just want leaders to do what is right, and if they become cruel they are disposed of.



Basically the assassins are advocates of democracy while the Templars are for dictatorship. Assassins don't advocate anarchy, they advocate people having the choice to make their own decisions, however flawed. If you live in a democratic country where you are allowed to be part of the voting process etc., that's what the assassins strive for. Whereas North Korea is an example of something close to the Templar ideology: loyalty towards a (perceived) benevolent dictator who decides what is best for all people. Freedom to vote for someone else would be removed because according to the Templars most people are idiots who don't know what's good for them, so they need to be led by people who think they know better.

Exactly.

HeedfulMass4856
03-16-2013, 12:11 AM
Wouldn't the fact that governments and societal structures have been prevalent and persistent since ancient times and across the world be a sign that the natural order you're talking about isn't so natural after all?

That could very well be a possibility, HT (you don't mind if I call you that, do you?). I thought the same thing right after I finished typing that last quote. That's what makes me want to die everyday, HT. The fact that I will never know the truth. There are always limitations. Either life is not long enough to discover the truth or life is simply not enough at all to discover the truth. I hate being here, knowing that all I will be able to do is speculate the truth. That's why you should believe nothing - everything that comes out of a human's mouth is speculation. This is why the Templars and Assassins aren't right or wrong. Because in the end, all of their philosophical ideals are just the product of man's opinion. And honestly, can something so ignorant as man be trusted?

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 12:16 AM
Thank you!

It does sound pretty grim :(. Is the Muslim Brotherhood taking over syndicates for themselves, or for the government? Other parties are still allowed, no? I take it that media is not free to report? I guess the economy is failing due to no tourism. No chance the people can tough it out until stability, and with it tourists, returns? In a civil war isn't there a huge risk that the good forces would get massacred by the more militant ones?

About religion, I'm so accustomed to the idea that government and religion should not mix under any circumstances. It's one of the cornerstones of our society. It's impoortant to guarantee that individuals have the right to choose their own life. Also to prevent discrimination (not that Sweden is anywhere perfect in this regard, but I still think it's better than if religion was intertwined with the government). But there is obv more or less tolerant religious states also.

Overall you sound pretty pessimistic :(.

I wouldn't allow them to mix in a country that's mostly illiterate or ignorant, because it can be abused for power. Considering the majority of the population is educated, then can we talk about the inclusion of PARTS of religion, as long as they don't intrude on people's privacy or freedom, with the discussion of banking systems and what not as opposed to copulation with corpses or what ever other crap these perverts bring up. Islam is very much about a personal spiritual relationship with good.

Sushiglutton
03-16-2013, 12:18 AM
I do agree with most of what he says except the whole "we need a civil war to kill all the muslim brotherhood fundies" a) it's not a civil war the liberal parties will win. b) it will likely end with the 3rd and more powerful force acquiring leadership, which is the military, that won't leave the country to be democratic again after the first failed trial, so here we go again. c) Good luck eradicating all those radicals, they'll eventually re-appear like the radical southerners in America (they are radical right). d) The country is already in turmoil, this will make it almost impossible for the country to rebound. The only solution is for, somehow, a benevolent dictator with great leadership and managing skills to lead us (via UN voting maybe?). Then after 60 years, when all future generations are educated and the people know right from wrong and how to decide for themselves rather than on a bunch of hypocrites that destroy the public image of religion, then might democracy be re-introduced.

I don't get the role of the military in this. You speak of them as an isolated entity. Don't they support/is made up of part of the population? Or do they have there own agenda?

TheHumanTowel
03-16-2013, 12:18 AM
That could very well be a possibility, HT (you don't mind if I call you that, do you?). I thought the same thing right after I finished typing that last quote. That's what makes me want to die everyday, HT. The fact that I will never know the truth. There are always limitations. Either life is not long enough to discover the truth or life is simply not enough at all to discover the truth. I hate being here, knowing that all I will be able to do is speculate the truth. That's why you should believe nothing - everything that comes out of a human's mouth is speculation. This is why the Templars and Assassins aren't right or wrong. Because in the end, all of their philosophical ideals are just the product of man's opinion. And honestly, can something so ignorant as man be trusted?
Please call me Human :p. I guess so. Still if we knew for sure we couldn't have such debates on a video game forum!

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 12:28 AM
I don't get the role of the military in this. You speak of them as an isolated entity. Don't they support/is made up of part of the population? Or do they have there own agenda?

Although the Supreme Council of Armed Forces leans more towards the past regime, the military its self is mostly neutral, so if a civil war does indeed break up, then they will definitely have their own agenda by then. Some believe that they will side with liberals, but if this little revolution experiment utterly fails, then they have no reason to support a democracy and, unfortunately, they would be sort of right to not leave the country in the turmoil created by democracy again, otherwise, the military will appear weak and indifferent if they don't intervene, which is not an image the military would want to send.

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 12:29 AM
This is my favourite thread. Had to say it.

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 12:34 AM
Thank you!

It does sound pretty grim :(. Is the Muslim Brotherhood taking over syndicates for themselves, or for the government? Other parties are still allowed, no? I take it that media is not free to report? I guess the economy is failing due to no tourism. No chance the people can tough it out until stability, and with it tourists, returns? In a civil war isn't there a huge risk that the good forces would get massacred by the more militant ones?

About religion, I'm so accustomed to the idea that government and religion should not mix under any circumstances. It's one of the cornerstones of our society. It's impoortant to guarantee that individuals have the right to choose their own life. Also to prevent discrimination (not that Sweden is anywhere perfect in this regard, but I still think it's better than if religion was intertwined with the government). But there is obv more or less tolerant religious states also.

Overall you sound pretty pessimistic :(.
You`re welcome..

Eh, I`v grown accustomed to grim situations. many years of violence and police brutality have seen to that, but I`m no where near pessimistic, if anything, I should be one of the most optimistic people. the former president was there for 30 years. he already established a powerful monopoly and iron fist in EVERY corner of the country and yet he was gone...just like that...18 days. I`v witnessed and experienced first hand what people can do..how anger and rage can manifest in ugly forms, because when justice goes absent, violence will spread and i`v seen it, although, most of the people were chanting "peaceful", I knew that some people, deep inside wanted to kill any cop they run into and hang the president in the middle of the square..

The Brotherhood are stupid politicians. they failed to realize the chance they had with the people. They were the last political group to officially join the revolt and the first group to assume control of the new freedom and take all the credit and they`re not even doing it slowly with strategic plans, they`re stumbling about in the dark sue to their numerous branches who are very often at odds and currently have to deal with the Salafis (Extremists) when a rift occurred after the president expelled a salafi counselor from the presidency. of course other parties are allowed to enter, how do you think they`ll maintain their "See ?? It`s not our fault" image ? They have to let other parties in, but in the end....They`ll win...simply because they`ll tell the people what they want "Religion" We`ll take you to heaven, we`ll combat those evil, vile western models and preserve religion. the fact is, Religion was and always will be int he heart of this country. Christianity or Islam.

The economy is failing due to everything. Tourism is in the down, agriculture is more or less being destroyed and there not one single production in this country that works properly. A civil war would lead to what the Revolt should`v accomplished.complete and total chaos where people assume power, create a council and proceed with rebuilding the systems of the government from scratch, so I`d say a dictatorship is quite necessary...although not in the single authoritarian sense.

Trust me, that`s not what the liberals want. They don't want to separate religion from the basis of the country, because we`v been with that our entire lives. It`s not the fault of Religion, it`s those morons who are currently in power who profess themselves as true leaders of Islam and with this, taint the image of religion as bad for politics...

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 12:35 AM
Please call me Human :p. I guess so. Still if we knew for sure we couldn't have such debates on a video game forum!

What is the objective of humans, but the pursuit of truth and knowledge? However, imagine if we had the sixth sense- knowledge. Then what would become of us if we become of no objective?

Sushiglutton
03-16-2013, 12:36 AM
Absolutely. A lot of us in the UK are hopeful of creating something better, and Sweden is one of the countries we would point to in order to demonstrate an improvement on our antiquated ways.



Oh yes, I agree. I don't think the governments are responsible for the anti-intellectual slant that is especially strong in the US and UK, but I don't think they've got a lot of interest in changing it either! This is certainly something that we've all done to ourselves, and our entertainment media only reflects that (but I would say that in doing so, they at least partially reinforce it).



Yeah, the outcomes won't always be desirable. I'm just very frustrated by the torpor of a culture that pays lip service to the notion of democracy, but in truth fears it. There is danger: the media must be healthy and relatively free from commercial and state pressure, for example, but I can't think of anything that could go wrong in a stronger democracy that couldn't go wrong in the UK right now. We've had a very volatile situation for a number of years where a few different extremist parties have had sudden surges of support, and not even first-past-the-post can hold that back forever. I think we'd have more stability with proportional representation, so that people could register support for an extremist party without necessarily handing their entire vote to them.


Yeah extremist parties are on the march all over Europe, in Sweden as well (took only seventy years for the fascists to return :( ). The lousy economy is obv the prime reason and then they able to canalize that frustration into primitive hate towards muslims. Not sure if proportional representation will solve that as it gives them a platform. In Sweden they are now in the parliment which has somewhat legitmized the party, even though the other parties and media are struggling to keep them as paria. And ofc it gives them a ton more media exposure.

I do fear stronger democracy, because for me the individual rights are paramount. I don't view unregulated democracy as the highest good. Without protection for individuals/minorities dreadful things could happen. And like I said I am also worried about the economy because a lot of people don't really think long-term. Education could solve this somewhat, but it's hard to force that upon people. I feel representative democracy has served us really well. Meh I dunno, perhaps I'm just conservative on the matter.

Oh I'm getting really tired now, will check in tomorrow again :).

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 12:39 AM
This is my favourite thread. Had to say it.
These Templar/Assassin threads usually end up being great..

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 12:42 AM
You`re welcome..

Eh, I`v grown accustomed to grim situations. many years of violence and police brutality have seen to that, but I`m no where near pessimistic, if anything, I should be one of the most optimistic people. the former president was there for 30 years. he already established a powerful monopoly and iron fist in EVERY corner of the country and yet he was gone...just like that...18 days. I`v witnessed and experienced first hand what people can do..how anger and rage can manifest in ugly forms, because when justice goes absent, violence will spread and i`v seen it, although, most of the people were chanting "peaceful", I knew that some people, deep inside wanted to kill any cop they run into and hang the president in the middle of the square..

The Brotherhood are stupid politicians. they failed to realize the chance they had with the people. They were the last political group to officially join the revolt and the first group to assume control of the new freedom and take all the credit and they`re not even doing it slowly with strategic plans, they`re stumbling about in the dark sue to their numerous branches who are very often at odds and currently have to deal with the Salafis (Extremists) when a rift occurred after the president expelled a salafi counselor from the presidency. of course other parties are allowed to enter, how do you think they`ll maintain their "See ?? It`s not our fault" image ? They have to let other parties in, but in the end....They`ll win...simply because they`ll tell the people what they want "Religion" We`ll take you to heaven, we`ll combat those evil, vile western models and preserve religion. the fact is, Religion was and always will be int he heart of this country. Christianity or Islam.

The economy is failing due to everything. Tourism is in the down, agriculture is more or less being destroyed and there not one single production in this country that works properly. A civil war would lead to what the Revolt should`v accomplished.complete and total chaos where people assume power, create a council and proceed with rebuilding the systems of the government from scratch, so I`d say a dictatorship is quite necessary...although not in the single authoritarian sense.

Trust me, that`s not what the liberals want. They don't want to separate religion from the basis of the country, because we`v been with that our entire lives. It`s not the fault of Religion, it`s those morons who are currently in power who profess themselves as true leaders of Islam and with this, taint the image of religion as bad for politics...

Thing is, civil war between who? You have the all knowing liberals that have never seen a gun, a radical religious political party with militias and some innocent poor Egyptians in between. A more possible scenario would be that of a military revolt like that of the 1950s, which will eventually lead us to this horrible repeated cycle.

HeedfulMass4856
03-16-2013, 12:44 AM
What is the objective of humans, but the pursuit of truth and knowledge? However, imagine if we had the sixth sense- knowledge. Then what would become of us if we become of no objective?
I don't know where this is stemming from, but I have speculation to throw in: with that sixth sense, we could began to understand "the Truth". Maybe knowledge comes with an infinite quest. We, as those endowed with knowledge, would never get bored. Just because we would have knowledge doesn't necessarily mean we would know all automatically at the activation of this sixth sense; we would just be able to know 'truly' if there is a God, or if there is a "Truth" at all. Then we could finally move past those two obstacles to open new doors that our primitive minds can't even think of.

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 12:53 AM
I don't know where this is stemming from, but I have speculation to throw in: with that sixth sense, we could began to understand "the Truth". Maybe knowledge comes with an infinite quest. We, as those endowed with knowledge, would never get bored. Just because we would have knowledge doesn't necessarily mean we would know all automatically at the activation of this sixth sense; we would just be able to know 'truly' if there is a God, or if there is a "Truth" at all. Then we could finally move past those two obstacles to open new doors that our primitive minds can't even think of.

But then again, what is "truth" but our most common opinions based on the most possible speculations? Unless we truly attain knowledge of everything then we are just humans that are only decades more advanced than we should. Unless we truly attain knowledge of everything, then death might very well be the only answer to all our questions.

Sushiglutton
03-16-2013, 12:55 AM
You`re welcome..

Eh, I`v grown accustomed to grim situations. many years of violence and police brutality have seen to that, but I`m no where near pessimistic, if anything, I should be one of the most optimistic people. the former president was there for 30 years. he already established a powerful monopoly and iron fist in EVERY corner of the country and yet he was gone...just like that...18 days. I`v witnessed and experienced first hand what people can do..how anger and rage can manifest in ugly forms, because when justice goes absent, violence will spread and i`v seen it, although, most of the people were chanting "peaceful", I knew that some people, deep inside wanted to kill any cop they run into and hang the president in the middle of the square..

The Brotherhood are stupid politicians. they failed to realize the chance they had with the people. They were the last political group to officially join the revolt and the first group to assume control of the new freedom and take all the credit and they`re not even doing it slowly with strategic plans, they`re stumbling about in the dark sue to their numerous branches who are very often at odds and currently have to deal with the Salafis (Extremists) when a rift occurred after the president expelled a salafi counselor from the presidency. of course other parties are allowed to enter, how do you think they`ll maintain their "See ?? It`s not our fault" image ? They have to let other parties in, but in the end....They`ll win...simply because they`ll tell the people what they want "Religion" We`ll take you to heaven, we`ll combat those evil, vile western models and preserve religion. the fact is, Religion was and always will be int he heart of this country. Christianity or Islam.

The economy is failing due to everything. Tourism is in the down, agriculture is more or less being destroyed and there not one single production in this country that works properly. A civil war would lead to what the Revolt should`v accomplished.complete and total chaos where people assume power, create a council and proceed with rebuilding the systems of the government from scratch, so I`d say a dictatorship is quite necessary...although not in the single authoritarian sense.

Trust me, that`s not what the liberals want. They don't want to separate religion from the basis of the country, because we`v been with that our entire lives. It`s not the fault of Religion, it`s those morons who are currently in power who profess themselves as true leaders of Islam and with this, taint the image of religion as bad for politics...


Civil war leads to chaos and it's hard to predict what will emerge. I mean the left happily supported the revolt in Iran to overthrow the Shah and then something equally bad happened and many of them had to flee. Ciivil wars tends to scar people for life and cement different factions/discords. And it will kill tourism for many years to follow. I really don't think it's something to wish for :|. It's very positive that the people of Egypt did not take to violence, even though they wanted.

Dictatorship is also very risky business. Has to be limited in some way. Dictators tend to not want to give up power. Maybe like AA said UN could be engaged in some way. At least to develop like a roadmap for democracy in say 10-20 years.

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 12:56 AM
Thing is, civil war between who? You have the all knowing liberals that have never seen a gun, a radical religious political party with militias and some innocent poor Egyptians in between. A more possible scenario would be that of a military revolt like that of the 1950s, which will eventually lead us to this horrible repeated cycle.
The liberals are useless. They`re like friggin babies who cannot make up their minds. "Oh we`ll run for parliament" "NO WAIT !! It`s bad...parliament is bad...cancel cancel" "We`ll run for presidency" "NO WAIT !! It`s bad...cancel it..cancel it"

They first say we`ll play revolution then so late into the scene, they change their minds and play politics instead. they`re so slow and unreliable....just like the President....The people will hold the guns and they`ll be the ones, AGAIN, to end this menace...not the liberals, not the salvation council and certainly not the army...this`ll be a civil war between the people and the government...I just hope we`re smart enough this time and not shout "EL GESH WEL SH3B EID W7DA" zy el 3yal el soghayara lelet el 3ed

Sushiglutton
03-16-2013, 12:57 AM
Ok really have to go to bed now, I can hardly see straight anymore. Will check in tomorrow.

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 01:00 AM
Civil war leads to chaos and it's hard to predict what will emerge. I mean the left happily supported the revolt in Iran to overthrow the Shah and then something equally bad happened and many of them had to flee. Ciivil wars tends to scar people for life and cement different factions/discords. And it will kill tourism for many years to follow. I really don't think it's something to wish for :|. It's very positive that the people of Egypt did not take to violence, even though they wanted.

Dictatorship is also very risky business. Has to be limited in some way. Dictators tend to not want to give up power. Maybe like AA said UN could be engaged in some way. At least to develop like a roadmap for democracy in say 10-20 years.
The situation is pretty different in Egypt, I`ll give you that...if a civil war happens, the result is one, because the other end result is basically already in effect, so if a war erupts, there`s but one outcome; Of course civil wars are risky and have lots of losses, but hey...it`s either we reclaim this country or just leave it rot (But that wont happen, so we`ll probably die trying, so at least we tried)

I never really the lack of violence as a positive. There`s not one single Revolution that succeeded peacefully....Ghandi ?? Where`s India now ? It`s full of problems and South Africa ? Same...There had to be a Violent revolution. My views may seem radical, but it`s this "peace" mentality that led this revolution down...

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 01:08 AM
The liberals are useless. They`re like friggin babies who cannot make up their minds. "Oh we`ll run for parliament" "NO WAIT !! It`s bad...parliament is bad...cancel cancel" "We`ll run for presidency" "NO WAIT !! It`s bad...cancel it..cancel it"

They first say we`ll play revolution then so late into the scene, they change their minds and play politics instead. they`re so slow and unreliable....just like the President....The people will hold the guns and they`ll be the ones, AGAIN, to end this menace...not the liberals, not the salvation council and certainly not the army...this`ll be a civil war between the people and the government...I just hope we`re smart enough this time and not shout "EL GESH WEL SH3B EID W7DA" zy el 3yal el soghayara lelet el 3ed

This is simplifying the situation. The people won't just suddenly revolt against the democratically-elected guy unless he mucks up badly, like REALLY BADLY. You must understand that the country is in financial turmoil with the poorer people getting the short end of the stick, so the "stability" that they once sought, is the reason why they wouldn't rise up against the brotherhood again and I don't see the MB doing anything THAT stupid (they are possibly on their waybto it, with all these new government officials) to make the lazy, delusional ****s get off their asses and realise that the MB won't bring them their stability. Those who actually believe in the revolution without affiliations are too small in numbers, that I can't really have faith that it will happen, especially with the generally grim mood.

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 01:09 AM
This is simplifying the situation. The people won't just suddenly revolt against the democratically-elected guy unless he mucks up badly, like REALLY BADLY. You must understand that the country is in financial turmoil with the poorer people getting the short end of the stick, so the "stability" that they once sought, is the reason why they wouldn't rise up against the brotherhood again and I don't see the MB doing anything THAT stupid (they are possibly on their waybto it, with all these new government officials) to make the lazy, delusional ****s get off their asses and realise that the MB won't bring them their stability. Those who actually believe in the revolution without affiliations are too small in numbers, that I can't really have faith that it will happen, especially with the generally grim mood.
From what you say, In time then....We agree...

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 01:17 AM
From what you say, In time then....We agree...

History has taught us to never be sure of the outcome, so be careful of what you wish. As for me, the blanket of slumber now is beginning to shroud me. Have a good night and I'll see you tomorrow.

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 01:20 AM
History has taught us to never be sure of the outcome, so be careful of what you wish. As for me, the blanket of slumber now is beginning to shroud me. Have a good night and I'll see you tomorrow.
I`m only basing my view of the outcome on past experience...

Good night, man....good night, you softies :P

Farlander1991
03-16-2013, 01:37 AM
On the topic of 'order being unnatural'... If we look at nature beyond humans... I don't think such a statement is going to hold up.

Wolves have alpha males that lead the pack. Ants build whole colonies and have a rank system (I can't remember the exact English word for that, it eludes me at the moment, but I think you get what I'm talking about). Bees serve their queens. And many other examples that people much more knowledgeable of animal societies than me can give. So, my question is, is that not Order? Is it also unnatural for all that to happen? Isn't government just an extension of that idea, because we're more advanced than other animals? (I'm not saying other animals are stupid, and I love my dogs and cats and they're amazingly smart, but, let's face it, they don't build 50-storied buildings) But in our case, that's unnatural for some reason now?

TheHumanTowel
03-16-2013, 01:56 AM
On the topic of 'order being unnatural'... If we look at nature beyond humans... I don't think such a statement is going to hold up.

Wolves have alpha males that lead the pack. Ants build whole colonies and have a rank system (I can't remember the exact English word for that, it eludes me at the moment, but I think you get what I'm talking about). Bees serve their queens. And many other examples that people much more knowledgeable of animal societies than me can give. So, my question is, is that not Order? Is it also unnatural for all that to happen? Isn't government just an extension of that idea, because we're more advanced than other animals? (I'm not saying other animals are stupid, and I love my dogs and cats and they're amazingly smart, but, let's face it, they don't build 50-storied buildings) But in our case, that's unnatural for some reason now?
Exactly. As animals become more complex they form societies and social structures. It's beneficial to the group and is a natural part of progression.

SixKeys
03-16-2013, 03:36 AM
I don't know where this is stemming from, but I have speculation to throw in: with that sixth sense, we could began to understand "the Truth". Maybe knowledge comes with an infinite quest. We, as those endowed with knowledge, would never get bored. Just because we would have knowledge doesn't necessarily mean we would know all automatically at the activation of this sixth sense; we would just be able to know 'truly' if there is a God, or if there is a "Truth" at all. Then we could finally move past those two obstacles to open new doors that our primitive minds can't even think of.

In the AC universe, even the sixth sense that TWCB have isn't the ultimate key to all secrets of the universe. They can only see so far into the future, "and much still remains in flux", meaning individuals can change their fate. Desmond, for example, was given a choice and even though it was unlikely he would have chosen differently than he ultimately did, it was still a possible alternate future that Juno hadn't relied upon. So even in the AC universe there's really no such thing as the Truth.

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 03:48 AM
Well yeah, both ideologies have their flaws. But if I had too choose one I'd go with the Templars in a heartbeat. Maybe I just have a very pessimistic worldview :(

I'm seeing a trend here: People from failed/ failing or generally unsuccessful democracies tend to Templarists, and those from successful or atleast nonfailing democracies tend to be Assassinists. Makes sense.

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 03:53 AM
I think the Assassins have the superior mindset here, Assassins want Peace through freedom and Templars want it through control. In my opinion the goal of peace and freedom that the Assassins strive for can be achieved without control. Simply because " We choose who we want to be" good people that seek peace will always have tough obstacles in their way but its about not giving up.


Gandhi ,JFK, Martin Luther, Abraham Lincoln , John Lennon. Take these men for an example, They all supported peace and Freedom... All of them were Assassinated. There is a force out there that wants to keep us dumb, stupid followers, But people have to learn that they need to stand up for themselves and be the good people they know they can be. And that is why the Assassins fight, To let the people have their freedom to find that peace, however long it may take.

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 04:53 AM
Gandhi ,JFK, Martin Luther, Abraham Lincoln , John Lennon. Take these men for an example, They all supported peace and Freedom... All of them were Assassinated.

Don't know about the others but there was a reason why Gandhi was assassinated. I respect the man for his contributions, but his ideas were horribly out of sync of the reality during his later days. He was atleast partially responsible for the partition of India.

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 04:55 AM
Don't know about the others but there was a reason why Gandhi was assassinated. I respect the man for his contributions, but his ideas were horribly out of sync of the reality during his later days. He was atleast partially responsible for the partition of India.
Ghandi was killed, because people do not want peace....Oh wait...we killed him :|

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 04:57 AM
Ghandi was killed, because people do not want peace....Oh wait...we killed him :|

This is what the Assassins want don't they? the people decide xD They decided :|

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:03 AM
This is what the Assassins want don't they? the people decide xD They decided :|

With the barrel of a gun :(

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 05:04 AM
With the barrel of a gun :(

What do the Assassins do? xD

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 05:06 AM
What do the Assassins do? xD
Stand up high and say "I stayed true to my creeeed"

RIP, Ahmet...

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:12 AM
What do the Assassins do? xD

The same I guess Lol, But to templars, Well unless Gandhi was a Templar... Conspiracy!

albertwesker22
03-16-2013, 05:12 AM
Stand up high and say "I stayed true to my creeeed"

RIP, Ahmet...

Poor Ahmet. Selim is a bastard...

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 05:13 AM
RIP, Ahmet...

RIP indeed. His "I'm tired of seeing brother fight against brother" line struck me immediately because that's exactly what I see around me..

Atleast he seemed to be a better fellow than that Selim.

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 05:14 AM
The same I guess Lol, But to templars,

Nah, to anyone they perceive as a threat to peace, freedom bla bla bla. They are kind of similar to the Templars in that regard.

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:17 AM
Nah, to anyone they perceive as a threat to peace, freedom bla bla bla. They are kind of similar to the Templars in that regard.

Oh they are Definately similar.. They both kill afterall.. but the Assassins are more likely to spare a life then Templars, Trapping poor guys and forcing them to live memories.

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 05:19 AM
Trapping poor guys and forcing them to live memories.

William's behavior towards Desmond comes to mind.. xD

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:22 AM
William's behavior towards Desmond comes to mind.. xD

Lol true.. But after learning about what he was fighting for, Desmond consented to going in the Animus, wheras he was forced to go in at Abstergo.

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 05:25 AM
Lets all take a moment to remember all the great Templars...

"But I want to play with fire, father ! What would you say ? As you wish ? Ah, but then you`d have to answer for his burns" -Garnier di Naplous

"I could have what I want. had it even. You...Your hands will always be empty" -Thomas Hickey

"Do you think me some petty death dealer suckling at the breast of war ?" -Tamir the arms dealer

"Because I`m tired of these worthless blood feuds that pit father against son, brother against brother" -Prince Ahmet

"Beggars, *****s, addicts, lepers: do they strike you as proper slaves? Unfit for even the most menial tasks? No... I took them, not to sell, but to save, and yet you'd kill us all... for no other reason than it was asked of you." -Talal the slave trader

"The dream of our Order is Universal...Ottoman..Byzantine. these are only labels. Costumes and facades. beneath these trappings, all templars are part of the same family" -Manuel Palaiologos

"There is no single path through life that's right and fair and does no harm." Benjamin Church

"My son is an arse" -William of Montferrat..

RIP

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 05:25 AM
Lol true.. But after learning about what he was fighting for, Desmond consented to going in the Animus, wheras he was forced to go in at Abstergo.
Here, Desmond let me punch you in the face for refusing to get into the Animus....love dad...

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 05:29 AM
"Beggars, *****s, addicts, lepers: do they strike you as proper slaves? Unfit for even the most menial tasks? No... I took them, not to sell, but to save, and yet you'd kill us all... for no other reason than it was asked of you." -Talal the slave trader


Oh god.. I remember the state mind was in when I heard that for the first time. This ****ing quote right here is the reason why AC, with all its faults and failings is still my favourite game series :)

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:29 AM
Here, Desmond let me punch you in the face for refusing to get into the Animus....love dad...

That was more for calling him a Templar.. So he gave him a little smack... well more like massive uppercut but yea..

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 05:31 AM
Lol true.. But after learning about what he was fighting for, Desmond consented to going in the Animus, wheras he was forced to go in at Abstergo.

And in Black Flag we have someone willingly going into the Animus. :D

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 05:32 AM
That was more for calling him a Templar.. So he gave him a little smack... well more like massive uppercut but yea..
It was a mixture of both...William was a man of discipline and Desmond was just a kid...Desmond just has some youth rage, because you know...pressure and all and William wont have none of it...saying he was no better than Templars just sealed it.....GET IT TOGETHER, KID

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:33 AM
And in Black Flag we have someone willingly going into the Animus. :D

And that is because they probably offer him money and they dont need to capture anyone else because all Desmonds ancestry is now uploaded to the cloud.

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 05:36 AM
And that is because they probably offer him money

Hey, motivation can come in many shape and form, it can come in the form of the desire to see the world unharmed, it can also come in the form of moar coins, as was the case with the great Lord Sir Thomas Hickey :p

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 05:38 AM
Hey, motivation can come in many shape and form, it can come in the form of the desire to see the world unharmed, it can also come in the form of moar coins, as was the case with the great Lord Sir Thomas Hickey :p
and ti `ies

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:39 AM
It was a mixture of both...William was a man of discipline and Desmond was just a kid...Desmond just has some youth rage, because you know...pressure and all and William wont have none of it...saying he was no better than Templars just sealed it.....GET IT TOGETHER, KID

I Was suprised how Desmond took it, I know some people that definately would have done the opposite of Desmond if their fathers touched them like that at that age...

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 05:40 AM
and ti `ies

they act as a motivation for a large part of humanity I must say xD

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 05:40 AM
I Was suprised how Desmond took it, I know some people that definately would have done the opposite of Desmond if their fathers touched them like that at that age...
Would`v been epic if he punched him back:p

If it was me, though...i wouldn't dare look back at him...even if he did what at any age....just look straight to the ground in shame

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:46 AM
Would`v been epic if he punched him back:p

If it was me, though...i wouldn't dare look back at him...even if he did what at any age....just look straight to the ground in shame

Very true, When I was younger I witnessed my Cousin in his (20's) beat the crap out of his father when they came to my place (It was over some old wounds) my uncle came out of hospital after having two cracked ribs. I realised i dont ever want to go through that with my father.

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 05:49 AM
Very true, When I was younger I witnessed my Cousin in his (20's) beat the crap out of his father when they came to my place (It was over some old wounds) my uncle came out of hospital after having two cracked ribs. I realised i dont ever want to go through that with my father.
Hospital ? o_0 Dayum...

I`m assuming no one wants to go through that with their father...

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 05:51 AM
Hospital ? o_0 Dayum...

I`m assuming no one wants to go through that with their father...

Yup, They forgave eachother later, but yea :( Anyway enough about me and the crap I have seen in my life, Back to Assassins vs Templars.

pirate1802
03-16-2013, 06:08 AM
Back to Assassins vs Templars.

Yeah, so where were we? oh yeah.. Assassins suck :)

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 06:34 AM
Yeah, so where were we? oh yeah.. Assassins suck :)

But... but you played 5 games with them..... Templar!

Assassin_M
03-16-2013, 06:36 AM
But... but you played 5 games with them..... Templar!
I`m one too...

Lets kill him, pirate... :|

Legendz54
03-16-2013, 06:38 AM
I`m one too...

Lets kill him, pirate... :|


Ok wanna play rough Templars!


http://youtu.be/AVQ8byG2mY8

cstrike105
03-16-2013, 07:36 AM
Haha I just want to say that I've been having fun reading this thread. In a few days, I'll be writing a paper regarding the philosophies of both the Assassins and Templars for my Ideologies class. I don't know, but it was just in great timing that this discussion was posted here in the forums! It's great to see how fellow Assassin's Creed fans are actually delving into the ideologies and philosophies of the two factions we've grown to love (and hate). :D

ArabianFrost
03-16-2013, 04:06 PM
Haha I just want to say that I've been having fun reading this thread. In a few days, I'll be writing a paper regarding the philosophies of both the Assassins and Templars for my Ideologies class. I don't know, but it was just in great timing that this discussion was posted here in the forums! It's great to see how fellow Assassin's Creed fans are actually delving into the ideologies and philosophies of the two factions we've grown to love (and hate). :D

So after all this, which side do you lean towards more? Are you even allowed to state your opinion in the assignment?

Spider_Sith9
03-16-2013, 05:37 PM
I just wanted to say... I'm sticking with being Neutral. I prefer Erudito. I'd rather not take this seriously like the one on Initiates.

Eternal Reward
03-16-2013, 06:31 PM
http://images.wikia.com/adventuretimewithfinnandjake/images/2/24/Boy-that-escalated-quickly_zps178aa246.jpg

Am I the only one that wants to know what ArabicAssassin and Assassin_M were talking about?

ProletariatPleb
03-16-2013, 06:45 PM
After spending all this this time playing AC...Templars are the ones I find better.

inferno33222
03-16-2013, 07:06 PM
So then you would also forfeit your rights to being protected by law enforcement or your health being tended to by medically trained professionals, institutions which are upheld by the government?

I agree with this, even though I'm more of an Assassin. Anarchy is stupid. Look at what happened after the barbarians sacked Rome. Anarchy set in for a little bit, then power-hungry monarchs/nobles took control, instituted the feudal system, we entered the Dark Ages, and it set the world back hundreds of years.

EDIT: The Templars want to control everyone's mind... You saw what Al Mualim did, just for his peace. It's for people to choose for themselves.

monster_rambo
03-16-2013, 11:32 PM
Well, you will find out if all of you really want to be a templar or an assassin after playing as an Abstergo employee. (not saying Abstergo employee=templars) but you are looking through the perspective of someone that is neither assassin or templar.

jenyto
03-17-2013, 02:21 AM
Am I the only one that wants to know what ArabicAssassin and Assassin_M were talking about?

I was quite interested in knowing what was happening in Egypt, since the news I watch (PressTV and Al Jazeera) isn't enough.

All I have to say to both of you is I hope you guys stay safe in that time of turmoil.

As for the topic, I'd say I'm right smack in the middle. A bit of a freedom with a bit of order.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 02:24 AM
All I have to say to both of you is I hope you guys stay safe in that time of turmoil.

I appreciate your concern http://gothnet.eu/static/images/smileys/smiley/flirt.gif

Eternal Reward
03-17-2013, 02:44 AM
I was quite interested in knowing what was happening in Egypt, since the news I watch (PressTV and Al Jazeera) isn't enough.

All I have to say to both of you is I hope you guys stay safe in that time of turmoil.

As for the topic, I'd say I'm right smack in the middle. A bit of a freedom with a bit of order.

Oh, I got that. Sucks what's happening to Christians in Egypt right now......

I was just wondering hat they were saying in....Arabic? I dunno what language it was.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 02:54 AM
Oh, I got that. Sucks what's happening to Christians in Egypt right now......

I was just wondering hat they were saying in....Arabic? I dunno what language it was.
It`s not just the Christians believe me xD (love the western media) EVERYONE is getting effed up..90% of those who died during the last demonstrations against the Brotherhood were Muslims...

Also, that language we were speaking...It`s Arabic yes...just used with english letters so no one can translate :p

Eternal Reward
03-17-2013, 03:10 AM
Yeah, sadly the most underreported part about the "wonderful" revolution.......

Sorry if I made it sound like I only care about the Christians, it's just I know people over there who have told us about it. Not sure where they are though.

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 03:42 AM
Templar Philosophy by ALtair

"Over time, any sentence uttered long and loud enough becomes fixed. Becomes a truth. Provided, of course, you can outlast the dissent and silence your opponents. But should you succeed and remove all challengers then what remains is, by default, now true.
Is it truth in some objective sense? No. But how does one ever achieve an objective point of view? The answer is you don't. It is literally, physically impossible. There are too many variables. Too many fields and formulae to consider. We can try, of course. We can inch closer and closer to a revelation. But we'll never reach it. Not ever...
And so I have realized, that so long as The Templars exist, they will attempt to bend reality to their will. They recognize there is no such thing as an absolute truth or if there is we are hopelessly under-equipped to recognize it. And so in its place, they seek to create their own explanation. It is the guiding principle of their so-named "New World Order"; To reshape existence in their own image. It is not about artifacts. Not about men. These are merely tools. It's about concepts. Clever of them. For how does one wage war against a concept?
It is the perfect weapon. It lacks a physical form yet can alter the world around us in numerous, often violent ways. You cannot kill a creed. Even if you kill all of its adherents, destroy all of its writings these are a reprieve at best. Some one, some day, will rediscover it. Reinvent it. I believe that even we, the Assassins, have simply re-discovered an Order that predates the Old Man himself..."

- Altair Ibn-La'Ahad

The Templars controls wants to keep humanity in ignorance to control them. They gived them answers where they don't find, they gived them their answers. Doing that, they fool the world by delivering THE answer. For the Templars, they are only one answer to every question. When you think about it, it would much more easier. The wolrd would free of all those unansewred questions that tourmented so many mans.

The Assassins wants to save the humanity from that ignorance. Working in the shadow to light the World. This their Freedom, it's the choice of what you want to do but the one of knowing the Truth. The Assassins are the Humanists where the Templars are the Church. Of course this will not necesserily bring Peace to the wolrd, but at least everyone would be able to know. Education, thats what they do. And this applies to our actual wolrd. If everyone on the Earth would have the same education, the same knowledge, imagine if everyone would be humanists. It would be a great world of developpement, everyone would help each other for the best of Humanity, it would be, Peace.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 03:56 AM
Yeah, sadly the most underreported part about the "wonderful" revolution.......

Sorry if I made it sound like I only care about the Christians, it's just I know people over there who have told us about it. Not sure where they are though.
Oh no I understand :D

didn't seem that way at all. I was just clarifying..

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 03:59 AM
The Templars controls wants to keep humanity in ignorance to control them.
Tell me again how the Templars did not create various contributions to numerous fields of science, how they did not shape economy, politics and science..

What were the Assassins doing when the Templars were making the 21st century ? Oh that`s right....Staying true to their creed..

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 04:08 AM
Tell me again how the Templars did not create various contributions to numerous fields of science, how they did not shape economy, politics and science..

What were the Assassins doing when the Templars were making the 21st century ? Oh that`s right....Staying true to their creed..

They contribute to their sciences, one exemple: Lucy's fake australopitec fossile that Abstergo put on the road of the archeologists who found it only for they don't discover the Truth.
They shaped their economy (The capitalism is an invention of the Templar that used to poeple during the Industrial Revolution) control and politics (same for democraty, they arranged to put who they wanted where they wanted so they could do what they wanted.)

Actually the Assassins were in a really bad position, just like we can see it in AC3. They were trying to get back. But, they killed Hitler and started the Russian Revolution, or at least, did part of it.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 04:13 AM
Tell me again how the Templars did not create various contributions to numerous fields of science, how they did not shape economy, politics and science..

What were the Assassins doing when the Templars were making the 21st century ? Oh that`s right....Staying true to their creed..

haha this made me laugh xD

There were some Abstergo dossiers in ACR MP that stated that illustrious Templar scientists were hounded by the Church didn't they? Yep.. totally wanting to keep humanity ignorant. :rolleyes:

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:19 AM
They contribute to their sciences, one exemple: Lucy's fake australopitec fossile that Abstergo put on the road of the archeologists who found it only for they don't discover the Truth.
They shaped their economy (The capitalism is an invention of the Templar that used to poeple during the Industrial Revolution) control and politics (same for democraty, they arranged to put who they wanted where they wanted so they could do what they wanted.)

Actually the Assassins were in a really bad position, just like we can see it in AC3. They were trying to get back. But, they killed Hitler and started the Russian Revolution, or at least, did part of it.
So you`re leaving EVERYTHING the Templars did in the Science department and focusing on that bit ? And I dont see the Assassins doing anything to help with making people "find the truth" Ezio sent one of his men to pay a historian to remain silent about the Templars and Assassins....so much for the moral high ground of the Assassins eh ?

Fine...they made the bad bad economy....at least they made an entire branch of study....It`s still a contribution to society...It serves them...So ?

Dont the Assassins do the same in politics ? install some of their people in power ? they had Al Gore against bush....

Yeah...very bad situation...while they were killing hitler and starting the russian revolution, the Templars were helping advance technology...

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:20 AM
haha this made me laugh xD

There were some Abstergo dossiers in ACR MP that stated that illustrious Templar scientists were hounded by the Church didn't they? Yep.. totally wanting to keep humanity ignorant. :rolleyes:
Very good point...

and no one bring up Rodrigo...he was a **** and the Templars themselves are ashamed of him..

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 04:25 AM
haha this made me laugh xD

There were some Abstergo dossiers in ACR MP that stated that illustrious Templar scientists were hounded by the Church didn't they? Yep.. totally wanting to keep humanity ignorant. :rolleyes:

Normal, after the Borgia tyranny Ezio assures that the Church would be friendly to the Assassins and counter the Templars. So it's not a suprised that in 2012 the Templars have nothing to do with the Church. And yes, they keep them ignorant, tell me how many Pieces of Eden did Abstergo found? Imagine all the knowledge they have, do they give to the people, no they keep it for them so the world stay in the ignorance. Jist take Nicolas Tesla, he had found a way to give free electricity to the whole wolrd with the knowledge of the Apple. What did Abstergo? They take his money of, destroyed his reputation and ruined his project. Do you the Assassins would have done the same? Nah.

And I realise that the Assassins kept the Truth of TWCB for a long time, but, telling this Truth would only bring chaos to humanity, it is a to big reveal for them to understand. The Wolrd isn't ready for that. And I can't wait to see what would happen in AC4 with Juno released, how do you think the people will react? Also, I'm pretty sure if the Assassins had deliver the Truth, no one would have listen to them, they would have been tracked down by the Church for being heretics and all stuff.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:28 AM
And I realise that the Assassins kept the Truth of TWCB for a long time, but, telling this Truth would only bring chaos to humanity, it is a to big reveal for them to understand. The Wolrd isn't ready for that. And I can't wait to see what would happen in AC4 with Juno released, how do you think the people will react? Also, I'm pretty sure if the Assassins had deliver the Truth, no one would have listen to them, they would have been tracked down by the Church for being heretics and all stuff.
Oh ? So when the Assassins hide the truth it`s for the good of humanity, but when the Templars hide it, they`re bad ?

You`re biased, dude...come back when you`re more objective..

and about the church, what you say is wrong...The church prosecuting Templar scientists was BEFORE Rodrigo...can`t remember when exactly, also, so it`s fair for the Assassins to prosecute templar SCIENTISTS just because they`re templars ?? Your views are extremely flawed

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 04:31 AM
What I understand is the Templars want control, which in itself is by no means a bad ideal. That control doesn't necessarily have to come through PoEs; there are other methods of controlling the masses: government controls us all the time. Their only aim is, as our Lord and Savior Grand Master Haytham Kenway put it, order, direction, purpose. They don't necessarily have to come only through mind control. The Colonial Templars were doing just fine without it, neither they had any plans to implement it. I just see the Templars as a world-spanning authoritarian regime, thats all. And I don't consider authoritarianism necessarily bad either. Its as good or bad as its current ruler, simple as that.

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 04:32 AM
So you`re leaving EVERYTHING the Templars did in the Science department and focusing on that bit ? And I dont see the Assassins doing anything to help with making people "find the truth" Ezio sent one of his men to pay a historian to remain silent about the Templars and Assassins....so much for the moral high ground of the Assassins eh ?

Fine...they made the bad bad economy....at least they made an entire branch of study....It`s still a contribution to society...It serves them...So ?

Dont the Assassins do the same in politics ? install some of their people in power ? they had Al Gore against bush....

Yeah...very bad situation...while they were killing hitler and starting the russian revolution, the Templars were helping advance technology...

Yeah of course they helped developping the sciences. BUT they could have done much much much more. They control everything, actually, they decide how the science advance. They are like a hundred years in the futur but still the don't give all their knowledge to help the wolrd at 100%. I'm not saying that they're bunch of a-hole that want to keep everyone to a primate mind. But they always have an big advance on society so they can have the control. Abstergo could own everyone with one PoE. They could do: Okay, we rule the wolrd, screw that, we use the divine weapons''. But, they don't do it cause they know that somehow someone will stop their ''tyranny''.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:37 AM
but still the don't give all their knowledge to help the wolrd at 100%.
Didnt you say that this was okay ? Oh yeah sorry it`s only okay when the Assassins don't give all the knowledge and hide things...


I'm not saying that they're bunch of a-hole that want to keep everyone to a primate mind.
Yes you did.. xD

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:38 AM
What I understand is the Templars want control, which in itself is by no means a bad ideal. That control doesn't necessarily have to come through PoEs; there are other methods of controlling the masses: government controls us all the time. Their only aim is, as our Lord and Savior Grand Master Haytham Kenway put it, order, direction, purpose. They don't necessarily have to come only through mind control. The Colonial Templars were doing just fine without it, neither they had any plans to implement it. I just see the Templars as a world-spanning authoritarian regime, thats all. And I don't consider authoritarianism necessarily bad either. Its as good or bad as its current ruler, simple as that.
This...

I really need to quote my arguments from the previous Assassin-Templar thread..

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 04:39 AM
Oh ? So when the Assassins hide the truth it`s for the good of humanity, but when the Templars hide it, they`re bad ?

You`re biased, dude...come back when you`re more objective..

and about the church, what you say is wrong...The church prosecuting Templar scientists was BEFORE Rodrigo...can`t remember when exactly, also, so it`s fair for the Assassins to prosecute templar SCIENTISTS just because they`re templars ?? Your views are extremely flawed

They're a difference between reveal the medicine to cure the cancer and to reveal that a ancient civilisations created the human kind...What the Assassins hide can crumble the humanity. What the Templar hide can help it to be a better wolrd.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 04:43 AM
What the Assassins hide can crumble the humanity. What the Templar hide can help it to be a better wolrd.

If that justifies Assassins hiding information then you can say without global control humanity will crumble (and it is crumbling) so that justifies mind control?

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:44 AM
They're a difference between reveal the medicine to cure the cancer and to reveal that a ancient civilizations created the human kind
How do you know the Templars have the cure for Cancer ? Also, Isn't the first civ`s existence a part of the evolution theory ? A great discovery could contribute to the advancement of Human science right ? Wouldn't the Revelation be amazing to both the scientific field AND the general public ? Imagine...no more Religion...All countries have gay marriage..etc...not to mention finally filling the missing gap in the Evolutionary tract...So Yes..The Assassins are as guilty as the Templars...no difference.

.
..What the Assassins hide can crumble the humanity. What the Templar hide can help it to be a better wolrd.
Huge exaggeration...Knowing that a race of advanced humans created a race of lesser humans will do nothing but advance the knowledge of humanity and science..AGAIN..both, the Assassins and Templars are guilty of this so called "Hiding of the truth"

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 04:51 AM
If that justifies Assassins hiding information then you can say without global control humanity will crumble (and it is crumbling) so that justifies mind control?

No cause humanity doesn't automatically need a global control to survive. They need (from an Assassin view) to be educated, that's all. If everyone haves the same global knowledge, so everyone is equal, so it's peace. But if you have big differencies between to population, then the one with the most knowledge will overhaul the one with the least knowledge. Just like the European oveuhaul the Native American.

And that's the point I am talking about. The Templars keep the population under them by always making of they haves the most knowledge. The Assassins are with the population. They don't want to own them, they want to raise them so everyone equal.

Templar +> Keep ourself over the population to better control

Assassin +> Being at the same level that the population to be all equal.

Each of the mind are good ideas for peace, but none of them will ever work. Because the Templat will never be able to control everyone, they always be someone to raise againts them And the Assassins will never be able to put everyone equal, caus they always be someone to raise againts the others.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 04:52 AM
Another point; there will always be power-hungry individuals ready to take power, be it under the guise of dictatorship or democracy. It happens in India all the time, you could tell just by hearing their speeches that they are in it just for the power and nothing else. As Haytham put it: "The people decided nothing." They rarely decide anything. There will always be dictators, it will always be hell. So, to modify a famous line: Better to reign in hell than serve in hell :p Better to take that power for yourself than be under the thumb of someone else. Atleast then (if you are a true Templar) you can work towards the betterment of the people than someone who only wants to advance his own family and stature.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:55 AM
but none of them will ever work
Then stop baselessly defending the Assassins, because your arguments are ridiculous..

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 04:57 AM
How do you know the Templars have the cure for Cancer ? Also, Isn't the first civ`s existence a part of the evolution theory ? A great discovery could contribute to the advancement of Human science right ? Wouldn't the Revelation be amazing to both the scientific field AND the general public ? Imagine...no more Religion...All countries have gay marriage..etc...not to mention finally filling the missing gap in the Evolutionary tract...So Yes..The Assassins are as guilty as the Templars...no difference.

.
Huge exaggeration...Knowing that a race of advanced humans created a race of lesser humans will do nothing but advance the knowledge of humanity and science..AGAIN..both, the Assassins and Templars are guilty of this so called "Hiding of the truth"

Your a really open-minded person. It wouldn't be an Evolution, no one would admit it, we are like that. no more religions? You must be kidding. The Church would do everything to stop this, and no muslim, jew or christians would believe it. DId you heard of the theory of the Anunaki and Nibiru. Weel it would had the same reaction. No one would talk about it, every one would take down this theory and praticly no one will eard about it.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 04:58 AM
No cause humanity doesn't automatically need a global control to survive.

Well we need control to survive, that's beyond question. The concept of governments and leviathans was born out of a need for a centralized support system. Without it we would have been still living as nomads or killed each other out a long time ago.

Now as we move forward in time, we are becoming more connected globally. I see a global government just an extension of national governments. There already are global organizations with global mandate aren't there? So this concept is hardly alien to us.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:59 AM
Another point; there will always be power-hungry individuals ready to take power, be it under the guise of dictatorship or democracy. It happens in India all the time, you could tell just by hearing their speeches that they are in it just for the power and nothing else. As Haytham put it: "The people decided nothing." They rarely decide anything. There will always be dictators, it will always be hell. So, to modify a famous line: Better to reign in hell than serve in hell :p Better to take that power for yourself than be under the thumb of someone else. Atleast then (if you are a true Templar) you can work towards the betterment of the people than someone who only wants to advance his own family and stature.
That`s what EVERYONE fails to realize...like...how all the Tyrannical bastards were Templars....that`s not even true...many Tyrants had nothing to do with Templars

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:01 AM
Your a really open-minded person. It wouldn't be an Evolution, no one would admit it, we are like that. no more religions? You must be kidding. The Church would do everything to stop this, and no muslim, jew or christians would believe it. DId you heard of the theory of the Anunaki and Nibiru. Weel it would had the same reaction. No one would talk about it, every one would take down this theory and praticly no one will eard about it.
When there`s proof, Muslims, Christians and Jews AND EVERYONE will shut the hell up...Undisputed proof..something for the people to see...something no one can dispute or debunk...

Also, what you said does not crumble humanity at all....just some information that falls on deaf ears

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 05:06 AM
Then stop baselessly defending the Assassins, because your arguments are ridiculous..

It's just that, IMO, the Assassins cause it's more humanist that the Templars one.

I respected the goal, I share it. Its their ways to reach it that I blame.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 05:08 AM
Also, the term "global" is relative. In ancient times emperors used to conquer continents and they used to say we conquered the whole world. Regarding the ancient global governments: Take the example of Rome. they brought civilization to huge swathes of the world. Now don't think I' not aware of their atrocities. I'm well aware of them and not condoning the in any way. But as I said, a dictatorial regime can be as good or bad as its ruler. Many emperors abused power, but the four Good emperors didn't. Rome was a shining beacon under their rule. Take the example of Cyrus, or Alexander. All of them conquered huge portion of land, were dictators by modern definition yet were reasonable and considerate. So, I'd say again.. neither global governments nor dictatorship are inherently bad. Dangerous and risky? Sure. Bad? Nope.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:09 AM
Its their ways to reach it that I blame.
That`s not what your posts included at all...

All your posts were "Assassins are better than Templars, Templars bad, because this"

"But Assassins do the same"

"No, it`s okay when Assassins do it, because they`re good"

basically...

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:11 AM
Also, the term "global" is relative. In ancient times emperors used to conquer continents and they used to say we conquered the whole world. Regarding the ancient global governments: Take the example of Rome. they brought civilization to huge swathes of the world. Now don't think I' not aware of their atrocities. I'm well aware of them and not condoning the in any way. But as I said, a dictatorial regime can be as good or bad as its ruler. Many emperors abused power, but the four Good emperors didn't. Rome was a shining beacon under their rule. Take the example of Cyrus, or Alexander. All of them conquered huge portion of land, were dictators by modern definition yet were reasonable and considerate. So, I'd say again.. neither global governments nor dictatorship are inherently bad. Dangerous and risky? Sure. Bad? Nope.
Do you swear to uphold the principles of our order and all that for which we stand ?

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 05:12 AM
Do you swear to uphold the principles of our order and all that for which we stand ?

I do. :p

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:15 AM
I do. :p
And never to share our secrets nor divulge the true nature of our work ?

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 05:16 AM
When there`s proof, Muslims, Christians and Jews AND EVERYONE will shut the hell up...Undisputed proof..something for the people to see...something no one can dispute or debunk...


You do realize there are still many people who believe the Earth is flat?

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 05:18 AM
That`s what EVERYONE fails to realize...like...how all the Tyrannical bastards were Templars....that`s not even true...many Tyrants had nothing to do with Templars

Well it's sure that if you put a video on everyone faces that clearly proves it, no one could say anything. But yes it would mindrape everyone. Because that would say that Eveyrthing we knew, everything we told us, that was all false. It reconsiderate everything, it's an Assassin reflecting. That's probably why the Templars keep it for them. And for the Assassins, maybe they don't want to mindrape everyone. Just look Altair, such a Great Man, he barely get crazy with like 1% of the knowledge of TWCB, only knowing they exist totally ****ed him up. SO imagine all the poor mind of the wolrd getting such a reveal. It's just too big.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:19 AM
You do realize there are still many people who believe the Earth is flat?
The Majority...It`s an accepted fact that the earth is flat...if it becomes an accepted fact that we were created by an advanced race, then this little minority does not matter...there`ll always be this little group of people who just want to disbelieve any truth or fact for no reason at all...

The same`ll happen here...no biggie...this little minority does not matter anyways

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 05:21 AM
And never to share our secrets nor divulge the true nature of our work ?

You mean the secrets that I actually work for the Templars and seek to control humanity? Yeah. No one'll ever get that outta me! :D

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:21 AM
Well it's sure that if you put a video on everyone faces that clearly proves it, no one could say anything. But yes it would mindrape everyone. Because that would say that Eveyrthing we knew, everything we told us, that was all false. It reconsiderate everything, it's an Assassin reflecting. That's probably why the Templars keep it for them. And for the Assassins, maybe they don't want to mindrape everyone. Just look Altair, such a Great Man, he barely get crazy with like 1% of the knowledge of TWCB, only knowing they exist totally ****ed him up. SO imagine all the poor mind of the wolrd getting such a reveal. It's just too big.
That....this whole post....it`s just wrong..

Altair never went crazy..Crazy ? Hell, it made sense to him actually and it made him A LOT wiser and knowledgeable...

The rest is just silly...mindrape people ? Wha- ?

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:22 AM
You mean the secrets that I actually work for the Templars and seek to control humanity? Yeah. No one'll ever get that outta me! :D
Good.

And to do so from now until death, whatever the cost ?

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 05:24 AM
The Majority...It`s an accepted fact that the earth is flat...if it becomes an accepted fact that we were created by an advanced race, then this little minority does not matter...there`ll always be this little group of people who just want to disbelieve any truth or fact for no reason at all...

The same`ll happen here...no biggie...this little minority does not matter anyways

Right, I'm just saying indisputable proof in no way guarantees everyone will accept the truth. Look at how many people in the US still refuse to accept evolution, to the degree that several states are actively trying to force the teaching of evolution out of public schools. They may be in the minority, but large enough that it would be dangerous to ignore them. You said indisputable proof would make it impossible for anyone to deny the truth, but you're underestimating the humans' ability to delude themselves.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:29 AM
Right, I'm just saying indisputable proof in no way guarantees everyone will accept the truth. Look at how many people in the US still refuse to accept evolution, to the degree that several states are actively trying to force the teaching of evolution out of public schools. They may be in the minority, but large enough that it would be dangerous to ignore them. You said indisputable proof would make it impossible for anyone to deny the truth, but you're underestimating the humans' ability to delude themselves.
It`d just make it an acceptable fact...Evolution is still not an accepted fact, because it`s not as large or impactful as the discovery that we were created by a race of advanced humans and besides....The scientists are the ones doing a terrible job of explaining Evolution properly, but lets not go there...

Let them delude themselves... isn't that what the Assassins want ? freedom of belief ? as long as it becomes an accepted fact by the majority and not just less than half of the population, then it`s a done deal....We were created by advanced Humans

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 05:29 AM
That....this whole post....it`s just wrong..

Altair never went crazy..Crazy ? Hell, it made sense to him actually and it made him A LOT wiser and knowledgeable...

The rest is just silly...mindrape people ? Wha- ?

Crazy in the sens that he became addicted to this. He could stop thinking about that again and again and again. And the Knowledge it gives him change him a lot. He got scared somehow of what he learned. Knowing all that, it's just like, too much.

So if I presented you God in person you would like totally like'What the..no way...this is just too...agusjgdsiigujdisi'' ? You're too strong...

And your not more objective then me, your posts resumes to

''Assassins are idiots, Templars haves the solution''

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:33 AM
Crazy in the sens that he became addicted to this. He could stop thinking about that again and again and again. And the Knowledge it gives him change him a lot. He got scared somehow of what he learned. Knowing all that, it's just like, too much.

So if I presented you God in person you would like totally like'What the..no way...this is just too...agusjgdsiigujdisi'' ? You're too strong...

Altair was only scared of death...not scared of everything...Many people are afraid of death..even those with faith...
Addiction to more knowledge is not really a bad thing


And your not more objective then me, your posts resumes to

''Assassins are idiots, Templars haves the solution''
Oh No...I`v provided reasons and facts why I believe the Templar goal is far more realistic and rational for Humanity`s survival than the Assassins`

Meanwhile, all you did to counter my arguments was either repeating what I just rebuked or simply excused the Assassins and 5 seconds later accuse the templars simply because the game presents them as the antagonist

Eternal Reward
03-17-2013, 05:45 AM
It should also be noted that true free will is an illusion. We are influenced by so many factors in our everyday lives, that in all honesty very little of our choices are OUR choices.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 06:38 AM
It should also be noted that true free will is an illusion. We are influenced by so many factors in our everyday lives, that in all honesty very little of our choices are OUR choices.

Exactly.

xx-pyro
03-17-2013, 08:00 AM
It should also be noted that true free will is an illusion. We are influenced by so many factors in our everyday lives, that in all honesty very little of our choices are OUR choices.

That doesn't mean it isn't possible. Being influenced by something isn't a limit on your freedom, as long as you still have the choice to choose in whichever way you want.

That being said I think the Templar's are right and have since AC1; while not ideal, tis the world we live in.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 09:48 AM
That being said I think the Templar's are right and have since AC1; while not ideal, tis the world we live in.

M, we found another one.. xD

jenyto
03-17-2013, 09:51 AM
M, we found another one.. xD

Recruiting people for your order I see :P

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 09:52 AM
That doesn't mean it isn't possible.

I don't think its possible short of giving every worldly possession up and living in a cave for the rest of my life with no outside contact. What he actually meant is we are influenced by all that happens around us. Albeit in infinitesimal amounts, but they stack up. So when we make a decision, sure we made it on our own, but in making that decision we are being influenced by those factors.

Say I go to buy a car, and I saw an advertisement of a particular brand yesterday. Sure, the decision to buy that brand of car is my own, but I was influenced by the ad.

shobhit7777777
03-17-2013, 10:07 AM
IMHO Assassins come off as naive and idealistic (albeit Noble)

Templars know humans and human nature...they work with(in) those parameters

In the games we've seen Assassins target the rotten apples (the truly crazed ones)....but there are others like Haytham out there. For every bat **** insane Templar burning books there is a Haytham Kenway being awesome

In short, both Templar and Assassin goals are the same - Peace
Mediums are different and so is the philosophy.

BTW I believe its a fallacy to assume that Assassins are anarchist. They simply believe that reasoning, knowledge and enlightenment which would, ideally, lead to better decision making by the masses and/or governing bodies...and hence act to make the above available to the everyone

I feel that Templars simply are a more pragmatic bunch

Assassins want peace to flow in naturally...overtime
Templars want to enforce it....

A Templar dad would buy you a car based on what HE thinks is the ideal vehicle FOR you
An Assassin dad would give you the money and all the wiki/google search links on affordable cars and let YOU make the choice

You'd have a car either way ;)

That said, In a war between Assassins and Templars...put your money on the Templars...they'd steamroll the Assassins.


P.S

The real question is...who the hell appointed the Assassins?

If Templars are self appointed "Leaders" then aren't the Assassins equally arrogant in appointing themselves as the "Guardians"?

Did ANY Assassin in a Templar ruled country ASK the population if they WANT to be liberated?

Or maybe we're just going the "Templar=bad" because they have been portrayed as the antagonists in the games?

roostersrule2
03-17-2013, 10:15 AM
And people say games don't influence people.

Ragsash
03-17-2013, 12:16 PM
The Assassins make no sense.

First off, for anyone who played AC3, Connor is a complete lightweight when it comes to philosophy. His responses are generally a long the lines of "Nu uh!", which frustrated me SO MUCH when I was playing AC3, because most of the death speeches were quite deep. Even friggen womanizer drunken crime lord Hicky had something very interesting to say!

What I'm getting at is the Assassins philosophy is order through freedom, but that makes no sense.

See, freedom is a great concept, but have any of you thought of how bad absolute freedom would be? It would be anarchy. And as you can guess, anarchy is generally not associated with order....

See what I'm getting at? The Assassins entire mindset is based off of getting more and more freedom for people. But that is NOT always a good thing. Order through control, and not total control mind you, just some control, WORKS. Look at our societies today.

And, for those that will say "The Templars are bad because they kill innocents, and the Assassins don't!", first off the Assassins do things that will inevitably end in the deaths of innocents, and the idea that you can change the world for the better, fix the world, and NOT kill innocents is simply naive.


they arent promoting anarchy.
They are fighing forced control on others such as forcing people to believe one religion or forcing people to do as they tell them. they arent fighting laws and goverments. they are fighting dictatorships.

Such as the borgia family (thoe they are a crazed family that the templars hate) tried unite Italia with force. instead of diplomacy etc.

and like the templars in AC3 they forced their will on others. like the native americans...first they asked if they wanted to sell their lands to them but the moment they wanted to think about it...they killed them and tried to force them to sell their land.

and the hole thing with Gorge washington was elected to lead the army. and the themplars wanted charles lee to lead (even if he might been a beter choice it dont matter as he was not elected do to so)

and the guy who burned books in AC1 he wanted to rid them all of every book but their own books becouse they told the "truth" and everyother elses truth is wrong and should be destroyed.

I hope you see the diffrens im trying to tell.

and Connor is suppost to be new to this. he knows his right and wrong but before the ending he dont explain it as well as the Ezio...but ezio had it simpler as all his enemies was bat**** crazy and noone of them had any point to make like the enemies in AC1 AC3 had.

"And, for those that will say "The Templars are bad because they kill innocents, and the Assassins don't!", first off the Assassins do things that will inevitably end in the deaths of innocents, and the idea that you can change the world for the better, fix the world, and NOT kill innocents is simply naive."

Well I dont really see what your point is here. killing innocents is very very bad. and they kill anyone just too show they can do it....and they do that alot.
there is a diffrens between killing an innocent and somebody else might kill a innocent becouse of what you did.

Ragsash
03-17-2013, 12:36 PM
That`s what EVERYONE fails to realize...like...how all the Tyrannical bastards were Templars....that`s not even true...many Tyrants had nothing to do with Templars

No its not.
Every tyrannical bastard that belived in dictatorship was a templar.
Not that they were a member of the order...but they believed in the same things as the templars...making them templars...not officaly but if they were offered a place in the order they would been in it.

And as everybody who believes in free will and elections etc etc. is an assassin. and again not in the order but they believe in the same things. that makes them an assassin.

both the templars and the assassins are way of looking at life. but the diffrens betwine members of both orders and normal people is that the members of both orders live around that idea and fight their hole life to upphold their point of view.

as normal people just thinks this is right.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 12:38 PM
and the hole thing with Gorge washington was elected to lead the army. and the themplars wanted charles lee to lead (even if he might been a beter choice it dont matter as he was not elected do to so)


Well that's the thing. "The people chose nothing. It was done by a group of privileged cowards seeking only to enrich themselves. They convened a meeting in private and elected a person that'll benefit THEM."

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 12:42 PM
No its not.
Every tyrannical bastard that belived in dictatorship was a templar.
Not that they were a member of the order...but they believed in the same things as the templars...making them templars...not officaly but if they were offered a place in the order they would been in it.

And as everybody who believes in free will and elections etc etc. is an assassin. and again not in the order but they believe in the same things. that makes them an assassin.

This is an incredibly black-and-white way of looking at things. Come to India bro, you'll find many thugs and murderers believing in free will and elections (and using the same elections to commit more atrocities.). Doubt you would want them to be associated with Assassins.

Also, what do you think the Templars believe? Hint: Its much more complex than GRAB POWAH! If just being tyrannical makes one a Templar than killing anyone makes one an Assassin. Simple.

Ragsash
03-17-2013, 12:58 PM
This is an incredibly black-and-white way of looking at things. Come to India bro, you'll find many thugs and murderers believing in free will and elections (and using the same elections to commit more atrocities.). Doubt you would want them to be associated with Assassins.

Also, what do you think the Templars believe? Hint: Its much more complex than GRAB POWAH! If just being tyrannical makes one a Templar than killing anyone makes one an Assassin. Simple.

Never said that believing in free will automaticly makes you a good person. but focing your will on others is ALWAYS bad.

They believe in peace with force. the ends justify the means according to the templars. no matter how many or few they need to kill or horrible acts they commit, if they get peace after its done its worth it.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 01:02 PM
Never said that believing in free will automaticly makes you a good person.

You said that automatically makes him an Assassin.


but focing your will on others is ALWAYS bad.

That's what governments do, that's what the police does and that's what parents do to their little children.


They believe in peace with force. the ends justify the means according to the templars. no matter how many or few they need to kill or horrible acts they commit, if they get peace after its done its worth it.

So, if someone seizes power with the sole goal of enriching himself, would he be a Templar?

pacmanate
03-17-2013, 01:11 PM
I agree with OP. Even in Revelations one of the fat templars says to Ezio something about power and control is needed for peace. Haytham even says a world without order is chaos. Assassins are stupid, especially Connor, the dumbest of them all. At least Ezio and Altair had better motives than their own.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 01:11 PM
I have never in my entire life seen such naivete from one person...

You`re literally...Just...Wrong...What was that gibberish about anyone believing in Tyranny is a Templar ? What ? Whaaaaat ?

I`ll just let my second in command handle this....this is just absurd

Ragsash
03-17-2013, 01:12 PM
You said that automatically makes him an Assassin.

thats what you get for just reading parts of it.
"both the templars and the assassins are way of looking at life. but the diffrens betwine members of both orders and normal people is that the members of both orders live around that idea and fight their hole life to upphold their point of view.

as normal people just thinks this is right."
I thought it was funny that you didnt take in the part that didnt fit you.

Does being a Assassin automaticlly make you a good person?


That's what governments do, that's what the police does and that's what parents do to their little children.

And you get to elect whos in charge in goverments and you get to change laws etc etc. in the templars mind noone would get to do that exept themselfs.


So, if someone seizes power with the sole goal of enriching himself, would he be a Templar?

No thats not what an templar is.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 01:13 PM
Iespecially Connor, the dumbest of them all. At least Ezio and Altair had better motives than their own.
Please...PLEASE dont make me rant about Connor`s motives...I already have my hands full with the Assassin sympathizers who say the weirdest things....PLEASE...just No

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 01:23 PM
you get to change laws etc etc.
Lol Nope....No one gets to change laws..


in the templars mind noone would get to do that exept themselfs.

And yet, The Templars run the biggest democracy in the world....the USA

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 01:26 PM
Does being a Assassin automaticlly make you a good person?

I never said that. I said that if anyone who believes in free will and elections is an Assassin, then i can show you multitudes of murderer and thief Assassins. You yourself inserted "good" in the argument. If you go back you'll see I never used it.


And you get to elect whos in charge in goverments and you get to change laws etc etc. in the templars mind noone would get to do that exept themselfs.

And elections get regularly rigged in many places of the world. Ultimately, power rests with the wealthy and influential. Be it democracy or autocracy. they always find a way to bend the system. You'd think you are in charge, changing the governent, but how much power do you actually have?


No thats not what an templar is.

Exactly. So anyone who lusts for power is not by default a Templar, right? :)

Legendz54
03-17-2013, 01:30 PM
This thread has gone one for days... Templars and Assassins... Templar and Assassins, Who is better??? I have a simple solution.. Why dont we all just get in a ring and fight to the death :p

If i have been reading right i see more people believe in the Templar Philosophy, That humans need to be controlled as they are bred to be violant and not peaceful. Am I the only Assassin here that believes people can still have the potential to be peaceful without Control that if they Dont give up and have enough resilience they can choose to be who they want to be?

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 04:08 PM
This thread has gone one for days... Templars and Assassins... Templar and Assassins, Who is better??? I have a simple solution.. Why dont we all just get in a ring and fight to the death :p

If i have been reading right i see more people believe in the Templar Philosophy, That humans need to be controlled as they are bred to be violant and not peaceful. Am I the only Assassin here that believes people can still have the potential to be peaceful without Control that if they Dont give up and have enough resilience they can choose to be who they want to be?

I've given up on this thread as I'm no longer sure how many people are roleplaying and how many actually believe the stuff they're saying. M countered my point about evolution not being an accepted fact because he says humans were actually created by TWCB. People who live in democratic countries where they're allowed the freedom to vote and believe what they want are saying they'd rather live in a dictatorship as long as it was a good dictatorship... I don't know who's actually being serious anymore and who isn't.

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 04:11 PM
Don't know about others but I'm being perfectly serious about whatever I'm saying here..

TheHumanTowel
03-17-2013, 04:15 PM
I've given up on this thread as I'm no longer sure how many people are roleplaying and how many actually believe the stuff they're saying. M countered my point about evolution not being an accepted fact because he says humans were actually created by TWCB. People who live in democratic countries where they're allowed the freedom to vote and believe what they want are saying they'd rather live in a dictatorship as long as it was a good dictatorship... I don't know who's actually being serious anymore and who isn't.
lol this. I'm a bit confused at this point as to whether these people are actually advocating dictatorship or just saying it to be edgy.

Sushiglutton
03-17-2013, 04:27 PM
And elections get regularly rigged in many places of the world. Ultimately, power rests with the wealthy and influential. Be it democracy or autocracy. they always find a way to bend the system. You'd think you are in charge, changing the governent, but how much power do you actually have?

That some "democracies" are not working as they should doesn't mean the system is fundamentally flawed. Most western democracies work fine. Some elected leaders are far from perfect, but the beauty of demcoracy is that, contrary to a dictatorship, it doesn't require perfect since it self adjust every now and then. The "wealthy and influential" is not a constant homogenous group. "Normal people" can become wealthy and influential. This is more or less difficult in different societes, but in all modern democracies it's possible. Not everyone in the wealthy/influential group wants the same thing (hence different parties), which also leads to selfregulations as they keep eachother in check.

My power is aproximately 1/(the size of the population) which isn't all that much (even less in India :p). But it's infinitely times more than it would be in a dictatorship.

stingray10
03-17-2013, 04:27 PM
I don't think some people fully appreciate the differences in the Assassin's and Templar's ideoligies and Philosophical beliefs. However, I would agree with the Templars, people need to be controlled, its part of their...system. Some people like it and others don't but in the end of the day, their solution has a higher chance of creating peace than the assassins realistically. With free will, there will always be evil. Evil is organic and not controllable unless you can control peoples thoughts and feelings. To be honest it would take me a very long time to back my opinion with hard facts but their we go.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 04:35 PM
I don't think people really understand when the Templars create a grand plan....Just throw the whole crap on Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany and forget that the US and British leaders were Templar puppets as well... -_-

It`s called "A PLAN" they create the conflict AND the solution so that the outcome is perfect...No mistakes..Haytham mentions this in his Journal. He was not worried when one of his men died, because he had other men on different sides of the war to ensure the perfect outcome...

Also, the last few replies just show that most people are like "Oh ma godz TEMPLARZZZ zey be doin tyranny and ****e to za beaople...are u mad ?? dictatorz ?? i no get if you serious..FREEDOM FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY..YAAAA"

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 04:41 PM
That some "democracies" are not working as they should doesn't mean the system is fundamentally flawed.

I never implied that. It depends on the region. That which is successful in one country might not be successful in other.


Most western democracies work fine.

Agreed. Which is why they find it difficult to see the other side of the coin..


Some elected leaders are far from perfect, but the beauty of demcoracy is that, contrary to a dictatorship, it doesn't require perfect since it self adjust every now and then.

When the choices you are offered in elections requires you to choose between different brands of stupidity, its not much of a choice. Whoever wins, in the end I lose. Which is why, I said that the success of Democracy is contextual.In here poverty and illiteracy is so widespread you can "buy" votes by promising people a lunch. What's even more, we vote not for who will be the head of state, but which party will get to choose that. Once, say party A wins, they can make anyone they wish the prime minister. heck they can even pick me up and up the reins in my hands. Believe it or not, but my state once had a chief minister who couldn't write her freaking name! and always required an assistant who would tell her what is what 24x7. Just imagine that.


My power is aproximately 1/(the size of the population) which isn't all that much (even less in India :p). But it's infinitely times more than it would be in a dictatorship.

Not necessarily. If you are part of the ruling group then you have considerable power, for example :p

Sushiglutton
03-17-2013, 04:55 PM
I don't think people really understand when the Templars create a grand plan....Just throw the whole crap on Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany and forget that the US and British leaders were Templar puppets as well... -_-

It`s called "A PLAN" they create the conflict AND the solution so that the outcome is perfect...No mistakes..Haytham mentions this in his Journal. He was not worried when one of his men died, because he had other men on different sides of the war to ensure the perfect outcome...

Also, the last few replies just show that most people are like "Oh ma godz TEMPLARZZZ zey be doin tyranny and ****e to za beaople...are u mad ?? dictatorz ?? i no get if you serious..FREEDOM FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY..YAAAA"

Look I have no idea what Templar's or Assassin's exact ideologies are. Nor do I care that much since they are both fictional and I prefer to read about/analyze real world ideologies. I do think democracy is for the most part great. I do think liberal rights/individual freedom is for the most part great. I'm no anarchist, I want law and order. From what I understand the templars want a lot more than that. They want even more control than the Nazis it seems, with their mind manipulation schemes.

Then there are some sentences there that I need translated :p







I never implied that. It depends on the region. That which is successful in one country might not be successful in other.



Agreed. Which is why they find it difficult to see the other side of the coin..



When the choices you are offered in elections requires you to choose between different brands of stupidity, its not much of a choice. Whoever wins, in the end I lose. Which is why, I said that the success of Democracy is contextual.In here poverty and illiteracy is so widespread you can "buy" votes by promising people a lunch. What's even more, we vote not for who will be the head of state, but which party will get to choose that. Once, say party A wins, they can make anyone they wish the prime minister. heck they can even pick me up and up the reins in my hands. believe it or not, but my state once had a chief minister who couldn't write her freaking name! Just imagine that.



Not necessarily. If you are part of the ruling group then you have considerable power, for example :p


Democracy is a fundamentally better system in a number of ways and I refuse to believe that some countries will never be able to implement it correctly (I'm an optimist :) ). I understand that the situation in India is much harder due to less education, poverty, coruption and the size etc. I still believe democracy is the proper way to go, but there are other important factors as well ofc.

In Sweden we vote for a combination of persons and parties to the parlament. However they can elect whoever they want as primeminister. There is nothing wrong with a system like that. If they elect an idiot, then they won't get any votes in the next election and someone else will take their place.

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 04:58 PM
Also, the last few replies just show that most people are like "Oh ma godz TEMPLARZZZ zey be doin tyranny and ****e to za beaople...are u mad ?? dictatorz ?? i no get if you serious..FREEDOM FREEDOM and DEMOCRACY..YAAAA"

Were you being serious when you said the human race was actually created by a race of advanced beings, therefore evolution cannot be proven true, yes or no? Because if you were, everything we're discussing here is pointless.

Spider_Sith9
03-17-2013, 04:58 PM
Ugh, I just came to a conclusion... These type of threads I hate more than Assassin comparison threads due to Ezio winning them all. This as really gotten out of hand. The fact is: Templars have a realistic end but at the end of the day. Their's is just as flawed. When they reach their Perfect Order, Controlled will always rebel against the Controller. The Catalyst said it best.


I've given up on this thread as I'm no longer sure how many people are roleplaying and how many actually believe the stuff they're saying. M countered my point about evolution not being an accepted fact because he says humans were actually created by TWCB. People who live in democratic countries where they're allowed the freedom to vote and believe what they want are saying they'd rather live in a dictatorship as long as it was a good dictatorship... I don't know who's actually being serious anymore and who isn't.

I read this in a frustrated Haytham voice due to your avatar. xD

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:00 PM
Look I have no idea what Templar's or Assassin's exact ideologies are. Nor do I care that much since they are both fictional and I prefer to read about/analyze real world ideologies. I do think democracy is for the most part great. I do think liberal rights/individual freedom is for the most part great. I'm no anarchist, I want law and order. From what I understand the templars want a lot more than that. They want even more control than the Nazis it seems, with their mind manipulation schemes.

Then there are some sentences there that I need translated :p
.
Lots of books containing literature and lore have been greatly analyzed....I don't see why that shouldn't automatically apply to video games as well

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 05:02 PM
Lots of books containing literature and lore have been greatly analyzed....I don't see why that shouldn't automatically apply to video games as well

Nothing wrong with analysis, but some people here are just plain making stuff up. Then it becomes a case of "I'm right and you're wrong because this fictional event happened in a video game" instead of "what if we were to analyze these two philosophies in real-world terms?".

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:02 PM
Were you being serious when you said the human race was actually created by a race of advanced beings, therefore evolution cannot be proven true, yes or no? Because if you were, everything we're discussing here is pointless.
Of course I`m serious.. haven't you played the games ? It`s there...we were created by a bunch of nifty, kinky aliens wearing hats that looked like birds and Desmond saved us on the 21st....

indisputable

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 05:03 PM
The Catalyst said it best.

And yet the Reapers never rebelled xD Also, what if the controlled never knew they were being controlled? For all we know there may be a Templar-like organization already controlling us using various governments as proxies?

But seriously, why people are getting frustrated? Its good to have a philosophical debate isn't it. Both sides learn something. :|

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 05:04 PM
Of course I`m serious.. haven't you played the games ? It`s there...we were created by a bunch of nifty, kinky aliens wearing hats that looked like birds and Desmond saved us on the 21st....

indisputable

Ahh, so we're roleplaying, then. Thanks for clearing that up. I was beginning to worry you actually believed all this stuff about democracy being a flawed system.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:04 PM
"what if we were to analyze these two philosophies in real-world terms?".
that`s all that`s bothering you ? fine, mate. Actually, some people ARE doing this...I dont know if you`v noticed, but we`re talking about very real situations in some very real countries..

Or are you just upset that you couldn't counter any of what I said ?:p (Not to mention that past Assassin-Templar thread...:rolleyes:)

Sushiglutton
03-17-2013, 05:10 PM
Lots of books containing literature and lore have been greatly analyzed....I don't see why that shouldn't automatically apply to video games as well

There is absolutely nothing wrong with analyzing fictional ideologies, not at all. I simply don't know enough about those ideologies to participate in such discussion. So I'll just make general points given what I think ;).

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 05:10 PM
Really ? that`s all that`s bothering you ? Actually, some people ARE actually doing this...I dont know if you`v noticed, but we`re talking about very real situations in some very real countries..

Or are you just upset that you couldn't counter any of what I said ? (Not to mention that past Assassin-Templar thread...:rolleyes:)

I'm frustrated because I don't know when you actually believe the crazy stuff you're saying and when you're just roleplaying a crazy person. :rolleyes:

On the one hand you claim that if all people on this earth were given indisputable proof of something, they would all inevitably accept it. When I pointed out this is demonstrably not true, given that we have indisputable evidence of things like the Earth being round and evolution, your counter-argument is that well, those don't count because we were actually created by a race of advanced aliens. Then you go on to argue real-world events like the current political climate in Egypt. I'm sorry, I thought in the universe we're discussing Africa was 96% dead? So the political events you're describing can't actually exist?

So which is it? Are we discussing real-life philosophies or fictional events from the AC universe?

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:17 PM
I'm frustrated because I don't know when you actually believe the crazy stuff you're saying and when you're just roleplaying a crazy person. :rolleyes:

On the one hand you claim that if all people on this earth were given indisputable proof of something, they would all inevitably accept it. When I pointed out this is demonstrably not true, given that we have indisputable evidence of things like the Earth being round and evolution, your counter-argument is that well, those don't count because we were actually created by a race of advanced aliens. Then you go on to argue real-world events like the current political climate in Egypt. I'm sorry, I thought in the universe we're discussing Africa was 96% dead? So the political events you're describing can't actually exist?

So which is it? Are we discussing real-life philosophies or fictional events from the AC universe?
I didn't bring Egypt into this argument xD

Someone asked about the situation there, so I temporarily left my role play and explained it a bit to him and 96% doesn't mean everyone in Egypt is dead too...they could be the 4% that survived..

Anyways, that`s not what I said, You talked about the earth and Evolution and those are very different. Evolution is not yet a completely accepted fact, because less than half of the planet believe it and there was no concrete proof that it`s real....at least the concrete proof I`m imagining..meanwhile, the earth being round is accepted by 99% of earth`s population...why ? because there`s indisputable, factual, right in front of the eye in every way proof....operationally, visually, audibly...The earth being a sphere has the most proof ever...

The same applies to TWCB, if someone can give the same type of proof to the existence of TWCB, it`ll be a fact believed by 99% of earth`s population..

SixKeys
03-17-2013, 05:28 PM
Evolution is a scientifically proven fact. Whether or not everyone on the globe still believes it or not is irrelevant. It's not a case of "majority rules" that decides when something becomes a fact. It becomes a fact when it has been proven.

You'd be surprised by the kinds of mental hoops people can throw themselves through in order to disbelieve what they have just witnessed with their own eyes. Even if you had absolute, indisputable proof of the existence of TWCB, you would still get people (especially those of religious persuasion) denying it as a trick of the Devil (see: dinosaur fossils), optical illusion, government conspiracy, mass hypnotism, etc. etc. You will never, ever get all people to accept something as indisputably true. That is why the Templar goal of absolute order will never work. Because all people will never completely agree on the same thing. Not without mind control, which is why the Templars ultimately decided to go with that solution. Because they realized their goal was impossible to achieve unless they could physically force people to accept their particular world view.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 05:37 PM
Evolution is a scientifically proven fact. Whether or not everyone on the globe still believes it or not is irrelevant. It's not a case of "majority rules" that decides when something becomes a fact. It becomes a fact when it has been proven.

You'd be surprised by the kinds of mental hoops people can throw themselves through in order to disbelieve what they have just witnessed with their own eyes. Even if you had absolute, indisputable proof of the existence of TWCB, you would still get people (especially those of religious persuasion) denying it as a trick of the Devil (see: dinosaur fossils), optical illusion, government conspiracy, mass hypnotism, etc. etc. You will never, ever get all people to accept something as indisputably true. That is why the Templar goal of absolute order will never work. Because all people will never completely agree on the same thing. Not without mind control, which is why the Templars ultimately decided to go with that solution. Because they realized their goal was impossible to achieve unless they could physically force people to accept their particular world view.
That`s not what I mean regarding evolution. Evolution`s theory cannot produce the type of evidence that the shape of the earth theory can produce...Evidence that led 99% of the people believing it...Why do you think there`s a very small amount of people believing in Evolution ? Because of that very reason....and it`s not because of Religious leaders or whatever...they can very easily claim that "Yes, evolution is indeed mentioned in the good book" and everyone will believe them like always...But the fact is, Evolution cannot produce the type of evidence that the shape of the earth`s theory can.. (Note: I said TYPE of evidence)

AdamPearce
03-17-2013, 07:00 PM
IMHO Assassins come off as naive and idealistic (albeit Noble)

Templars know humans and human nature...they work with(in) those parameters

In the games we've seen Assassins target the rotten apples (the truly crazed ones)....but there are others like Haytham out there. For every bat **** insane Templar burning books there is a Haytham Kenway being awesome

In short, both Templar and Assassin goals are the same - Peace
Mediums are different and so is the philosophy.

BTW I believe its a fallacy to assume that Assassins are anarchist. They simply believe that reasoning, knowledge and enlightenment which would, ideally, lead to better decision making by the masses and/or governing bodies...and hence act to make the above available to the everyone

I feel that Templars simply are a more pragmatic bunch

Assassins want peace to flow in naturally...overtime
Templars want to enforce it....

A Templar dad would buy you a car based on what HE thinks is the ideal vehicle FOR you
An Assassin dad would give you the money and all the wiki/google search links on affordable cars and let YOU make the choice

You'd have a car either way ;)

That said, In a war between Assassins and Templars...put your money on the Templars...they'd steamroll the Assassins.


P.S

The real question is...who the hell appointed the Assassins?

If Templars are self appointed "Leaders" then aren't the Assassins equally arrogant in appointing themselves as the "Guardians"?

Did ANY Assassin in a Templar ruled country ASK the population if they WANT to be liberated?

Or maybe we're just going the "Templar=bad" because they have been portrayed as the antagonists in the games?

That's what I was trying to say.

Spider_Sith9
03-17-2013, 07:30 PM
And yet the Reapers never rebelled xD Also, what if the controlled never knew they were being controlled? For all we know there may be a Templar-like organization already controlling us using various governments as proxies?

But seriously, why people are getting frustrated? Its good to have a philosophical debate isn't it. Both sides learn something. :|

Thinks of those jerks the Leviathans... @_@ But I see your point on the whole unknown order thing. I played Fahrenheit and just...poor Lucas. A normal person permanently traumatized by experiences in just one month. The Orange Clan or the Templars. Can't tell who I should be afraid up more.

As for the frustration. It's probably one of three things... People are loyal to the Assassins and is thought-provoked into wanting to keep their individuality yet knows the Templar philosophy is right....well at least more realistic and can't counter arguments . Templar loyalists to are fixated on order believing it'll create true peace but can't counter arguments. And those who realize the argument is going in circles yet argue anyway.


Anyhoo, that's why I stand by the whole revolution perspective. It's a matter of beliefs and will. ...well that and I don't know much about politics and philosophy to argue in this thread. But I've seen much fiction on this type of topic and well....a revolution always happened. :P

As you can tell I'm not taking this thread to seriously. :3

pirate1802
03-17-2013, 07:50 PM
Thinks of those jerks the Leviathans... @_@

No I mean the Reapers never rebelled against the Catalyst. Probably they weren't even aware of his/its existence O.o

shobhit7777777
03-17-2013, 07:52 PM
That`s not what I mean regarding evolution. Evolution`s theory cannot produce the type of evidence that the shape of the earth theory can produce...Evidence that led 99% of the people believing it...Why do you think there`s a very small amount of people believing in Evolution ? Because of that very reason....and it`s not because of Religious leaders or whatever...they can very easily claim that "Yes, evolution is indeed mentioned in the good book" and everyone will believe them like always...But the fact is, Evolution cannot produce the type of evidence that the shape of the earth`s theory can.. (Note: I said TYPE of evidence)


LOL

Are you actually comparing proofs of two entirely different theories? "Type"?

That was an extremely idiotic statement to make.

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 07:55 PM
LOL

Are you actually comparing proofs of two entirely different theories? "Type"?

That was an extremely idiotic statement to make.
*sigh* Thank you for completely missing my point...

I`ll not be bothered to explain it AGAIN...But I appreciate the obvious effort you put in trying to understand and not immediately act like a smartass or call my statements idiotic or anything....You`re very classy..

shobhit7777777
03-17-2013, 08:11 PM
*sigh* Thank you for completely missing my point...

I`ll not be bothered to explain it AGAIN...But I appreciate the obvious effort you put in trying to understand and not immediately act like a smartass or call my statements idiotic or anything....You`re very classy..


Typical....avoidance

I doubt even you understood what you're trying to say.....try again.

You are a touchy one aren't you? Dude..you say stupid things and you will get called out. Now unless you want to explain yourself...*shrugs*...but I doubt it...since I think I DO know what you were trying to say..and you DO realize now that you had a brain-fart...and I doubt you would get into this knowing you made a boo boo.

Predictable

Assassin_M
03-17-2013, 08:15 PM
Typical....avoidance

I doubt even you understood what you're trying to say.....try again.

You are a touchy one aren't you? Dude..you say stupid things and you will get called out. Now unless you want to explain yourself...*shrugs*...but I doubt it...since I think I DO know what you were trying to say..and you DO realize now that you had a brain-fart...and I doubt you would get into this knowing you made a boo boo.

Predictable
Nah...but brainfart ? xD Alright...