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itsamea-mario
03-14-2013, 11:58 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=BHXatP8kCSQ#t=122s
2:01

You see that!? Haytham pins down connors blade arm. Then he moves that arm to put it on connors throat. No way he forgot about the blade he was pinning down 1 second ago.
Also why would he throttle connor when he himself has hidden blades. No, i think in this moment haytham realises that he can't kill his son, he opens himself up so as not to draw out the process. He knows that he can't turn connor to his cause, he knows he can't just let down the Templar order by letting Connor live, so instead he lets himself die.
To me this is extremely powerful, and probably one of the finest moments of the entire game, if not the entire series.

Okay, perhaps he didn't 'want' to die, but nor did he really want to kill connor, not truly in his heart.

Farlander1991
03-15-2013, 12:06 AM
Yeah. I think Haytham knew that one of them has to die, and he didn't want it to be Connor. I also view his 'I should've killed you long ago' as an 'I love you, son' of sorts. I mean, it's a messed up declaration of love, but... still is.

Sushiglutton
03-15-2013, 12:16 AM
Oh my. Ubisoft sure has a talent for creating some of the most awful "boss fights" in video-gaming history. What an incedibly anticlimactic moment! Stand close to an object and tap a button three times, really? And then a QTE to finish :(.

Sorry I lost control there for a moment. On topic again. I'm not sure. It could be either way imo. Haytham does seem a bit suprised. On the other hand it is a huge misstake for a templar to ignore the hidden blade.

Farlander1991
03-15-2013, 12:19 AM
Oh my. Ubisoft sure has a talent for creating some of the most awful "boss fights" in video-gaming history. What an incedibly anticlimactic moment! Stand close to an object and tap a button three times, really? And then a QTE to finish http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20120411.419/images/smilies/frown.png.

Ubisoft had problems with boss fights ever since AC1, really, so I personally wasn't that surprised :D

ACfan443
03-15-2013, 12:20 AM
Ubisoft had problems with boss fights ever since AC1, really, so I personally wasn't that surprised :D

AC1's boss fight was pretty good IMO.

Farlander1991
03-15-2013, 12:24 AM
AC1's boss fight was pretty good IMO.

Granted, it had two interesting concepts: finding the 'right' Al-Mualim and his teleportation thingie (so... I guess that does make it THE best boss fight in AC history), but essentially it's just 'send 9 enemies against Altair' - 'after you easily kill them, send 9 more enemies against Altair' - 'after you kill the right one (or all of them) run around the area to hit the boss once until you kill him'

It's... nothing special, really, you don't feel a challenge, for the most part it's like any other regular combat situation.

Sushiglutton
03-15-2013, 12:28 AM
Ubisoft had problems with boss fights ever since AC1, really, so I personally wasn't that surprised :D

Well suprised wasn't really what I felt either. It was more like: "OH NOOO, they've done it again :("-kind of feel lol.

silvermercy
03-15-2013, 12:32 AM
I had the same thought. I was like 'Your neck Haytham!! Watch your freaking neck!"

Why couldn't they settle their differences over a cup of tea? Or reconciliatory yoga at least...

itsamea-mario
03-15-2013, 12:36 AM
I had the same thought. I was like 'Your neck Haytham!! Watch your freaking neck!"

Why couldn't they settle their differences over a cup of tea? Or reconciliatory yoga at least...

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/759048-Imagine-this

TheHumanTowel
03-15-2013, 12:38 AM
There is definitely some subtext along these lines in this scene. Haytham was holding down Connor's armed hand so he was completely aware of the blade. I think in some way he just knew this was how it was going to end, he realised he could never convince Connor. So he gave him an opportunity while making one last point. God I love that line.

silvermercy
03-15-2013, 12:41 AM
http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/759048-Imagine-this
And they probably inherited that lovely Caribbean hut from Edward who lived with them until old age with his wife... *more intense sobbing*

I will steal your gif for this.
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5y5twPapT1qjehm8.gif

And thennn... and then.... Ubisoft happened!! :mad:

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 12:50 AM
So no one read the book ? I thought it was pretty clear that Haytham was preparing for his death before that fight...I mean...Charles basically tells him "You were a good leader, Haytham"

And Haytham himself comes to terms with this...

itsamea-mario
03-15-2013, 12:53 AM
So no one read the book ? I thought it was pretty clear that Haytham was preparing for his death before that fight...I mean...Charles basically tells him "You were a good leader, Haytham"

And Haytham himself comes to terms with this...

I didn't read it, but i was aware of this stuff. He obviously went into the fight feeling this way, else he would have just killed Connor straight away. He was still fighting with himself.
But i feel that moment pretty much sums the whole thing up.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 01:00 AM
I didn't read it, but i was aware of this stuff. He obviously went into the fight feeling this way, else he would have just killed Connor straight away. He was still fighting with himself.
But i feel that moment pretty much sums the whole thing up.
He had one moment to kill him. when Connor was scrambling about looking for Lee, but Haytham chooses to fight him instead...Haytham is probably one of the few people who chose not to stab Connor in the back..

The relationship between Haytham and Connor had so many subtleties..

itsamea-mario
03-15-2013, 01:04 AM
He had one moment to kill him. when Connor was scrambling about looking for Lee, but Haytham chooses to fight him instead...Haytham is probably one of the few people who chose not to stab Connor in the back..

The relationship between Haytham and Connor had so many subtleties..

One of the best relationships in the series imo.

rileypoole1234
03-15-2013, 01:05 AM
I see Haytham moving his arm almost as him saying "I've done what needed to be done, it is my time now". Basically like you said, he can't bear to kill his own son.

I personally like the anticlimactic deaths in AC. That's probably more like what it would look like when killing someone rather than a long drawn out fight.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 01:13 AM
One of the best relationships in the series imo.
Agreed..

There`s not one relationship in AC that comes close to its complexity..

Giovanni dies early, We never see Umar, Leo is a best friend, Cristina is a "love of life", Caterina was a business enthusiast (if you know what I mean)

If one comes close, imo, it`s Altair and Malik or Almualim..

jenyto
03-15-2013, 02:02 AM
I felt that he did wanted to die. In the book, I had the feeling that he was weary of everything that had happened to him.

SixKeys
03-15-2013, 02:03 AM
I personally like the anticlimactic deaths in AC. That's probably more like what it would look like when killing someone rather than a long drawn out fight.

It would be fine in a movie, but in a video game it's just annoying. When I'm playing a game, I want to feel like I'm part of the action, not constantly reduced to watching someone else's vision. For 90% of the targets in AC3, there is literally no other way to kill them except via a cinematic cut scene that has already determined exactly how they will die. That means every single playthrough of those missions will be exactly the same for all players. They might as well not have bothered with the QTE and just made it a non-interactive cut scene since the end result is the same: taking away player control.

pirate1802
03-15-2013, 03:56 AM
He had one moment to kill him. when Connor was scrambling about looking for Lee, but Haytham chooses to fight him instead...Haytham is probably one of the few people who chose not to stab Connor in the back..

And now this makes me incredibly sad, both for Connor and Haytham. :'(

pirate1802
03-15-2013, 04:00 AM
Also good to see I'm not the only one crazy enough to think "I should have killed you long ago" was a compliment of sorts, kinda proud of ya son moment. :D

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 04:08 AM
Also good to see I'm not the only one crazy enough to think "I should have killed you long ago" was a compliment of sorts, kinda proud of ya son moment. :D
He also said it with a smile on his face...

emperior
03-15-2013, 09:28 AM
I should have killed you long ago means he had to kill him when he didn't even knew him.
After they work together he realizes he loves his son so he can't kill him.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 09:33 AM
I should have killed you long ago means he had to kill him when he didn't even knew him.
After they work together he realizes he loves his son so he can't kill him.
But that was a very brief time. Haytham had doubts about the boy from the Massacre being his son from the necklace he wore...he certainly had doubts, but the amount of time he thought Connor was a mere native kid was like.....2 or 3 hours at the most..

RinoTheBouncer
03-15-2013, 10:53 AM
I agree. The whole scene felt like "I wanna make you kill me. Give you a reason to make you do it".

He cannot betray the Templars and join his son. On the other hand, he can't kill his son and he has faith that he might make a difference despite his "delusion" as Haytham considers it but I think that's what he meant. "I should've killed you years ago" translate to "If I could kill you, I could've and should've done it years ago, but I can't".

pacmanate
03-15-2013, 12:25 PM
I think he did want to die, for what reason I don't know. Maybe he felt really bad about Zio's death, maybe he realised he actually couldn't kill Connor after spending the time he did with him. When he Haytham dies I think he is in shock that Connor actually did what he could not. Thats why he says he is proud of him and that he has courage and loyalty.

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 12:37 PM
I think he did want to die, for what reason I don't know. Maybe he felt really bad about Zio's death, maybe he realised he actually couldn't kill Connor after spending the time he did with him. When he Haytham dies I think he is in shock that Connor actually did what he could not. Thats why he says he is proud of him and that he has courage and loyalty.
Haytham was a battered individual, I`m inclined to argue that he may even have had a more tragic life than Connor......And Connor`s was pretty damm tragic