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View Full Version : Would you like the series to take on a more "WTF" direction in terms of gameplay ?



ArabianFrost
03-13-2013, 09:23 PM
Basically just like the gameplay mechanics of TOKGW DLC and Dishonered. Not only do these mechanics offer a richer stealth experience, but it will also offer a unique AC experience if they truly want to freshen the gameplay experience with AC5, without compromising the main pillars of the game. If anything at all, TOKGW will probably have (judging by the trailers) different, more varied and less linear stealth assassination missions, because of these super-natural powers, especially that they are equally built around the 3 pillars of the game (unlike AC3 of course). Come the day that Ubisoft ever tries to explain the gaining of such powers they can say, like they always do, "the animus was on shrooms or some other bullocks", or maybe Ubisoft will base such powers on the assassins being in possession of a POE that allows them to do so. Do you think that such a mechanic would positively add to the experience?


Edit: So maybe they shouldn't go full mumbo jumbo with it, but if TOKGW proves to be interesting in terms of mechanics, then it wouldn't really hurt to put it as a cheat to mess around with, whatever your purposes may be.

Farlander1991
03-13-2013, 09:26 PM
I think it's fine as an experiment, but I would rather have them perfect traditional stealth/combat/parkour mechanics rather than go into supernatural abilities all the way.

WalSwJan
03-13-2013, 09:27 PM
In DLC,yes. In the maingame I'd say no because there is a high possibility of destroying AC completely.

ArabianFrost
03-13-2013, 09:29 PM
I think it's fine as an experiment, but I would rather have them perfect traditional stealth/combat/parkour mechanics rather than go into supernatural abilities all the way.

You don't necessarily have to use them, they can just be there for anyone that wants to use them for different stealth approaches.

nitres15
03-13-2013, 09:31 PM
No !

Sushiglutton
03-13-2013, 09:33 PM
I think it's good the way they have done it, namely to have a realistic core game and then do an experimental DLC. I don't think powers like these are needed to make the steallth assassinations less linear and more varied. That could easily be achieved using realistic design/mechanics if the devs just wanted to. The strength of the franchise is the, more or less, realistic historical setting and gameplay. Going too far away from that and you basically have a fantasy game, which imo would make the franchise less unique.

ArabianFrost
03-13-2013, 09:34 PM
No !

Have you guys even tried it? It certainly worked for Dishonored. Not saying that what works for Dishonored works for AC, but if implemented properly, it can be useful for the guys WHO WANT TO USE IT OPTIONALLY.

ProletariatPleb
03-13-2013, 09:36 PM
No please, no. Do not ruin my series any more than it already has.

emperior
03-13-2013, 09:37 PM
Please no...
I could agree on making another PoE power like Eagle Eye, but I can't think what this power could be, and it shouldn't be something overpowered.

ArabianFrost
03-13-2013, 09:39 PM
I think it's good the way they have done it, namely to have a realistic core game and then do an experimental DLC. I don't think powers like these are needed to make the steallth assassinations less linear and more varied. That could easily be achieved using realistic design/mechanics if the devs just wanted to. The strength of the franchise is the, more or less, realistic historical setting and gameplay. Going too far away from that and you basically have a fantasy game, which imo would make the franchise less unique.

Understood. Maybe the absurdity of it can be less prevalent if used within a time period when myths and legend were a common thing, like Ancient Rome or Ancient Egypt. Also, AC isn't realistic at all, it's more authentic, but I'd even use the term authentic very loosely, because there is no authenticity behind a man climbing a 200m church side.

SixKeys
03-13-2013, 09:41 PM
They could put in these kinds of powers as a cheat, but not in the regular gameplay. Even for this "alternate reality" Connor's powers are completely nonsensical and I keep asking myself how they're going to explain them in a way that makes sense if the whole DLC isn't just a dream.

ArabianFrost
03-13-2013, 09:47 PM
They could put in these kinds of powers as a cheat, but not in the regular gameplay. Even for this "alternate reality" Connor's powers are completely nonsensical and I keep asking myself how they're going to explain them in a way that makes sense if the whole DLC isn't just a dream.

Great idea. That way it wouldn't compromise much. The mechanics may be useful, but they just need to properly presented IMO. They don't even have to be a forced function, just a tool to a different stealth approach for those who want to replay missions with the cheats.

Farlander1991
03-13-2013, 09:47 PM
You don't necessarily have to use them, they can just be there for anyone that wants to use them for different stealth approaches.

Well, see, even in games with emergent gameplay like Dishonored, the design doesn't work as 'give players a bunch of abilities and they'll figure out what to do with it'. If a game is designed well, there has to be reason to use or not to use a certain action/ability or another.

And if the game is designed to give me a reason to use those abilities, then I will use them, and when I will use them, I will not feel like an Assassin (as established in AC lore, that is). Which is fine in the case of Tyranny, cause, we are NOT an Assassin there (and it's an alternate reality), but I don't want that in a core game.

And the argument 'don't use it if you don't want to' doesn't really work. It's there anyway, and it still messes up that 'feeling like an assassin' atmosphere, plus... you know, it's a game mechanic, I'll use it if I have to (as I said, especially if it's a well designed game). You know, this is a bit of a sideline, but when I argued about how old AC combat system is broken because of counters and kill streaks (this happened not on this forum, though), one defensive argument that I got is 'well don't use it if you don't want to then'. Why the hell I wouldn't use something's that's there if it makes most sense to use it? Same can be applied to any power/ability, really.

So, that's why I would want them to focus on refining the traditional stealth, combat and parkour mechanics, and have emergent gameplay flow out of that, without any supernatural abilities. You don't need supernatural abilities for good emergent gameplay anyway.

EDIT: Plus, you really have to be wary about how many things/possibilities you give to the player, because with too many options at a certain point it can get to a 'no reason to use this or this at all', which is, really, just as bad.

Sushiglutton
03-13-2013, 09:48 PM
Understood. Maybe the absurdity of it can be less prevalent if used within a time period when myths and legend were a common thing, like Ancient Rome or Ancient Egypt. Also, AC isn't realistic at all, it's more authentic, but I'd even use the term authentic very loosely, because there is no authenticity behind a man climbing a 200m church side.

Yeah it's not realistic, but adding powers like these would be a different kind of unrealism. I have nothing against leap of faith, or meat shield etc. But I don't want Edward to shoot fireballs with his hands. I think there is a fairly clear line between exaggerated reality and magic that I personally don't want the game to cross (yes I'm aware of the PoE, but that has been a tiny part of the game).

pacmanate
03-13-2013, 09:56 PM
Nope. I want it to be as realistic as possible, how AC games are now are fine to me.

ArabianFrost
03-13-2013, 10:03 PM
Well, see, even in games with emergent gameplay like Dishonored, the design doesn't work as 'give players a bunch of abilities and they'll figure out what to do with it'. If a game is designed well, there has to be reason to use or not to use a certain action/ability or another.

And if the game is designed to give me a reason to use those abilities, then I will use them, and when I will use them, I will not feel like an Assassin (as established in AC lore, that is). Which is fine in the case of Tyranny, cause, we are NOT an Assassin there (and it's an alternate reality), but I don't want that in a core game.

And the argument 'don't use it if you don't want to' doesn't really work. It's there anyway, and it still messes up that 'feeling like an assassin' atmosphere, plus... you know, it's a game mechanic, I'll use it if I have to (as I said, especially if it's a well designed game). You know, this is a bit of a sideline, but when I argued about how old AC combat system is broken because of counters and kill streaks (this happened not on this forum, though), one defensive argument that I got is 'well don't use it if you don't want to then'. Why the hell I wouldn't use something's that's there if it makes most sense to use it? Same can be applied to any power/ability, really.

So, that's why I would want them to focus on refining the traditional stealth, combat and parkour mechanics, and have emergent gameplay flow out of that, without any supernatural abilities. You don't need supernatural abilities for good emergent gameplay anyway.

EDIT: Plus, you really have to be wary about how many things/possibilities you give to the player, because with too many options at a certain point it can get to a 'no reason to use this or this at all', which is, really, just as bad.


Point taken. However if the mechanics of TOKGW are well-received, then it wouldn't at least hurt to implement as an extra cheat that is not built for the game setting, just like TOKGW and how it was implemented into a world which was built for a normal Assassin's Creed.

dxsxhxcx
03-13-2013, 10:07 PM
no because its proximity to reality (with real events, people and some other situations that are believable enough for me to accept them as possible in game) is what makes this game interesting to me and different from the other games we have available out there, I don't care if they could explain these "powers" with PoEs, be capable of do in the main game what we do in this new DLC would probably make me lose the interest (that isn't that high anymore) and stop buying it, I already have to deal with the ability to kill dozen of guards without even sweat sometimes, have super powers would just cross this line I set between what's believable in game and what isn't even more, so no, just keep it as a DLC (that doesn't have nothing to do with the main story if possible)...


Point taken. However if the mechanics of TOKGW are well-received, then it wouldn't at least hurt to implement as an extra cheat that is not built for the game setting, just like TOKGW and how it was implemented into a world which was built for a normal Assassin's Creed.

as optional cheats I wouldn't mind as long as they don't try to find an explanation related to the story to why we have these cheats available (like for example Shaun or Rebecca explaining the cheats and then saying that "x" cheat is possible because of this or that)

shobhit7777777
03-13-2013, 10:15 PM
I'd be open to it. At this point...the series needs a kick in the *** in the "innovative gameplay" department.

ProletariatPleb
03-13-2013, 10:16 PM
I'd be open to it. At this point...the series needs a kick in the *** in the "innovative gameplay" department.
It does, but superpower BS isn't gonna help AC get back to glory. It'll become a joke IMO.

Farlander1991
03-13-2013, 10:27 PM
I'd be open to it. At this point...the series needs a kick in the *** in the "innovative gameplay" department.

A game or a game series doesn't have to be innovative to be good, though. I think the goal to be innovative all the time can lead to some poor decisions (*cough* Den Defense *cough*), although indeed sometimes it can be really awesome (*cough* tree-running *cough* ). But what I'm trying to say is... while innovation is all good and nice, there doesn't have to be a 'pressure' of innovation, it has to come naturally (like tree-running did, it was a natural step rather than a forced innovation in the series). There's nothing wrong with a game being just darn good at what it tries to do, without really innovating. And this is what I want for AC, really. At this point, I don't want any new awesome features or something that hasn't been ever done before. I just want AC to be darn good at what it tries to do.

Sushiglutton
03-13-2013, 10:39 PM
A game or a game series doesn't have to be innovative to be good, though. I think the goal to be innovative all the time can lead to some poor decisions (*cough* Den Defense *cough*), although indeed sometimes it can be really awesome (*cough* tree-running *cough* ). But what I'm trying to say is... while innovation is all good and nice, there doesn't have to be a 'pressure' of innovation, it has to come naturally (like tree-running did, it was a natural step rather than a forced innovation in the series). There's nothing wrong with a game being just darn good at what it tries to do, without really innovating. And this is what I want for AC, really. At this point, I don't want any new awesome features or something that hasn't been ever done before. I just want AC to be darn good at what it tries to do.

This is very true. I'm hoping AC4 is a bit like Brotherhood was to AC2. Namely a game that polishes the mechanics, adds some new moves to combat to flesh it out some, fix the AI in stealth, add a bit more fun factor to freerunning (rope swinging may be something like that), flesh out naval (obv), open up the mission design. Do these things and I'm onboard ;). And I actually think there is a reasonable chance AC4 may be just that.

ProletariatPleb
03-13-2013, 10:41 PM
This is very true. I'm hoping AC4 is a bit like Brotherhood was to AC2. Namely a game that polishes the mechanics, adds some new moves to combat to flesh it out some, fix the AI in stealth, add a bit more fun factor to freerunning (rope swinging may be something like that), flesh out naval (obv), open up the mission design. Do these things and I'm onboard ;). And I actually think there is a reasonable chance AC4 may be just that.
But that IS innovation, not revolutionary but innovation nonetheless.

Hopefully doesn't ruin the story like Brotherhood tho :|

Farlander1991
03-13-2013, 10:42 PM
But that IS innovation, not revolutionary but innovation nonetheless.

No, that's iteration ;) Which is what most games do, they iterate.

ProletariatPleb
03-13-2013, 10:44 PM
No, that's iteration ;) Which is what most games do, they iterate.
Repeating? Uhh...............they tried to improve mechanics and added tons of new stuff, I don't know how that isn't innovation.

ArabianFrost
03-13-2013, 10:48 PM
A game or a game series doesn't have to be innovative to be good, though. I think the goal to be innovative all the time can lead to some poor decisions (*cough* Den Defense *cough*), although indeed sometimes it can be really awesome (*cough* tree-running *cough* ). But what I'm trying to say is... while innovation is all good and nice, there doesn't have to be a 'pressure' of innovation, it has to come naturally (like tree-running did, it was a natural step rather than a forced innovation in the series). There's nothing wrong with a game being just darn good at what it tries to do, without really innovating. And this is what I want for AC, really. At this point, I don't want any new awesome features or something that hasn't been ever done before. I just want AC to be darn good at what it tries to do.

Certainly. If anything at all, AC needs to return to its roots of AC1 if it wants to be any good which is exactly what they are doing with AC4 and the reason why AC4 will be one of the best AC games if not the best.

Sushiglutton
03-13-2013, 10:48 PM
But that IS innovation, not revolutionary but innovation nonetheless.

Hopefully doesn't ruin the story like Brotherhood tho :|

I'm not sure if adding moves to combat, fixing the AI and adding rope swinging counts as innovations. I mean stuff like that is in plenty of other games. Anyway discussing definitions of words is not that interesting as long as you get what I'm trying to say :). I mean polishing and adding some new features to existing mechanics rather than add totally new systems (like den defense). And open up the missions. So much depends on that.

Farlander1991
03-13-2013, 10:50 PM
Repeating? Uhh...............they tried to improve mechanics and added tons of new stuff, I don't know how that isn't innovation.

Well, in game design, iteration is not viewed as 'repeating the same thing over and over again', as it's more of 'recycling, adjusting and perfecting of the same basic concepts and principles until you get a desired engaging experience'. So, the process of adding a 'rope swing' to the parkour mechanics for example would be more of iteration on said parkour mechanics, rather than innovation, as rope swing does not change the basic concept and principles of the parkour system itself that's already present, but enhances it and brings closer to the desired experience.

montagemik
03-13-2013, 10:50 PM
Basically just like the gameplay mechanics of TOKGW DLC and Dishonered. Not only do these mechanics offer a richer stealth experience, but it will also offer a unique AC experience if they truly want to freshen the gameplay experience with AC5, without compromising the main pillars of the game. If anything at all, TOKGW will probably have (judging by the trailers) different, more varied and less linear stealth assassination missions, because of these super-natural powers, especially that they are equally built around the 3 pillars of the game (unlike AC3 of course). Come the day that Ubisoft ever tries to explain the gaining of such powers they can say, like they always do, "the animus was on shrooms or some other bullocks", or maybe Ubisoft will base such powers on the assassins being in possession of a POE that allows them to do so. Do you think that such a mechanic would positively add to the experience?


Edit: So maybe they shouldn't go full mumbo jumbo with it, but if TOKGW proves to be interesting in terms of mechanics, then it wouldn't really hurt to put it as a cheat to mess around with, whatever your purposes may be.

Don't want to give Ubisoft any ideas here .......... But if they want to bring out a spin off 'Abstergo Entertainment What IF ' series , Where we play as joe public & get to rePLAY the memories of any subject's (1-17) historical ancestor .........Then fine , they could add any super ability they like. -
As it's an Abstergo Ent' simulation - Historical / factual accuracy would'nt be really neccessary From the players perspective .............

But keep that scenario OUT of the main AC Assassin/Templar/Juno saga in Upcoming & future titles Please.

pirate1802
03-14-2013, 03:47 AM
Have you guys even tried it? It certainly worked for Dishonored. Not saying that what works for Dishonored works for AC, but if implemented properly, it can be useful for the guys WHO WANT TO USE IT OPTIONALLY.

See the thing is, the mere presence of such supernatural power breaks the series, whether you use the or not. Its like say, an optional power that makes Jensen turn into a funny little rabbit. Hey its optional! But it certainly breaks the immersion to know such a power exists. And I begin to doubt whether I'm playing a sci-fi or a fantasy game. Same with AC. Dishonored was set in a fictional universe where magic exists. Here in AC universe that magic stuff is known as PoEs. We already have plenty of PoEs scattered around the globe, and some are used by us (the protagonist). Lets keep it at that level.

I'm however perfectly OK with ToKW-like alternate DLC featuring these powers. just don't bring them into the main game Ubi.

ProletariatPleb
03-14-2013, 05:10 AM
Well, in game design, iteration is not viewed as 'repeating the same thing over and over again', as it's more of 'recycling, adjusting and perfecting of the same basic concepts and principles until you get a desired engaging experience'. So, the process of adding a 'rope swing' to the parkour mechanics for example would be more of iteration on said parkour mechanics, rather than innovation, as rope swing does not change the basic concept and principles of the parkour system itself that's already present, but enhances it and brings closer to the desired experience.
Aha, I was thinking programmer iteration, lol.

xx-pyro
03-14-2013, 05:13 AM
I didn't buy the DLC because it isn't canonical, however I did watch a video of the power and it made me slam my fist through my face. Keep that away from AC please, one of the pillars of the series is its attempt at historical authenticity.

pirate1802
03-14-2013, 05:15 AM
I didn't buy the DLC because it isn't canonical, however I did watch a video of the power and it made me slam my fist through my face. Keep that away from AC please, one of the pillars of the series is its attempt at historical authenticity.

The DLC is connected to the main story though, so its canon.

xx-pyro
03-14-2013, 05:20 AM
The DLC is connected to the main story though, so its canon.

Pretty sure they said a thousand times it isn't canon :o

souNdwAve89
03-14-2013, 05:28 AM
The only part that is canon is that Connor did have that dream. I would love another similar DLC like this, but in AC4 since there are so many things during the era of pirates like the kraken, mermaids, etc.


I didn't buy the DLC because it isn't canonical, however I did watch a video of the power and it made me slam my fist through my face. Keep that away from AC please, one of the pillars of the series is its attempt at historical authenticity.

Yeah well, too bad, but people do actually enjoy it. It's not like Ubisoft will drop the traditional AC for this. I think it's great that they did something different and fresh. This type of DLC fits fine with the Native American culture with their myths of harnessing spiritual animals' powers.

xx-pyro
03-14-2013, 05:32 AM
The only part that is canon is that Connor did have that dream. I would love another similar DLC like this, but in AC4 since there are so many things during the era of pirates like the kraken, mermaids, etc.



Yeah well, too bad, but people do actually enjoy it. It's not like Ubisoft will drop the traditional AC for this. I think it's great that they did something different and fresh. This type of DLC fits fine with the Native American culture with their myths of harnessing spiritual animals' powers.

Yeah and that was a good way to integrate visions of Juno and the symbolism of the Assassin's mark that led him to Achilles, but honestly the jumping from rooftop to rooftop after transforming into a hawk was a bit much for me. But hey that's my opinion, yours is yours, no need to too bad anyone :cool:

pirate1802
03-14-2013, 05:33 AM
Pretty sure they said a thousand times it isn't canon :o

The starting scene of the DLC shows Washington arguing with Connor (in his AC3 dress), and showing the Apple to him. That's enough hint that the DLC is related to the main story. Also Connor, in this alternate universe remembers the events of AC3, so there's that too.

xx-pyro
03-14-2013, 05:36 AM
The starting scene of the DLC shows Washington arguing with Connor (in his AC3 dress), and showing the Apple to him. That's enough hint that the DLC is related to the main story. Also Connor, in this alternate universe remembers the events of AC3, so there's that too.

Yes but it's an alternate story, I'm pretty sure it isn't in the AC timeline as an actual event or events. Obviously Connor is going to remember AC3, you think they'd make him some random Assassin with a new story?

pirate1802
03-14-2013, 05:42 AM
Yes but it's an alternate story, I'm pretty sure it isn't in the AC timeline as an actual event or events. Obviously Connor is going to remember AC3, you think they'd make him some random Assassin with a new story?

Well its an alternate universe remember? Technically Connor shouldn't remember anything from another universe, because it was not him who did it, so yeah.. for all intents and purpose, if it was truly a completely different universe it would be same as having a new assassin. And none of the other people remember anything either. And if it wasn't AC timeline why show that little clip in the beginning? I'm pretty sure it would turn out to be some kind of PoE-induced dream in which both Connor and Washington fell into. Would also explain Georgie's link to the Apple as hinted by AC2 glyphs.

D.I.D.
03-14-2013, 05:51 AM
They could do it.

Remember the William Robert Woodman DDS thing? That archive raised a means for a ritual to do the same job as the animus, and they also talked about the Secret Chiefs (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secret_Chiefs).

In theory, you could have the same set-up as Dishonored out of that: a little supernatural ability, and the Secret Chiefs appearing occasionally, a bit like the Outsider.

TheBearJew32
03-14-2013, 05:52 AM
No, keep the super powers as either DLC or don't have them at all. Call me old fashioned, but i don't want to see an assassin ability to literally become invisible as a way to infiltrate a heavily guarded area. It takes away from AC. I love finding ways to ambush/surprise my target, whether it be aerial, bale of hay,poison etc. Part of being an assassin in AC set in a historical time period. We don't need super powers

pirate1802
03-14-2013, 07:29 AM
No, keep the super powers as either DLC or don't have them at all. Call me old fashioned, but i don't want to see an assassin ability to literally become invisible as a way to infiltrate a heavily guarded area. It takes away from AC. I love finding ways to ambush/surprise my target, whether it be aerial, bale of hay,poison etc. Part of being an assassin in AC set in a historical time period. We don't need super powers

Agreed. And there are already enough supernaturally-powered stealth games anyway. Dishonored, and now the new Thief. Why make AC lose its soul and become something its not?

ProletariatPleb
03-14-2013, 07:32 AM
Pretty sure they said a thousand times it isn't canon :o

Assassin's Creed 3 developer Ubisoft has assured fans that the events of its nutty new alternate-reality DLC are "canon", and will matter to the series' storyline.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-15-assassins-creed-3s-wacky-the-tyranny-of-king-washington-dlc-features-superpowers-hallucinogens-and-an-alternate-history-storyline

shobhit7777777
03-14-2013, 10:38 AM
It does, but superpower BS isn't gonna help AC get back to glory. It'll become a joke IMO.

Sid(dharth?), the franchise IS a joke at this point.


A game or a game series doesn't have to be innovative to be good, though. I think the goal to be innovative all the time can lead to some poor decisions (*cough* Den Defense *cough*), although indeed sometimes it can be really awesome (*cough* tree-running *cough* ). But what I'm trying to say is... while innovation is all good and nice, there doesn't have to be a 'pressure' of innovation, it has to come naturally (like tree-running did, it was a natural step rather than a forced innovation in the series). There's nothing wrong with a game being just darn good at what it tries to do, without really innovating. And this is what I want for AC, really. At this point, I don't want any new awesome features or something that hasn't been ever done before. I just want AC to be darn good at what it tries to do.

I think you're confusing "Innovative Gameplay" with "Innovative Mechanics"

Allow me to elaborate (and in doing so better explain my first post)

What I am asking for is not just new mechanics and features out of the blue...what I am asking for is gameplay which is more engaging, allows creative solutions to in-game problems and relies more on user input and decisions to create awesome gameplay scenarios rather than scripted, designer created stuff.

I do not want innovation for innovation's sake....I do want a game which offers an experience which is dynamic. (FC3, Dishonored, DX)

Assassin's Creed is inherently VERY innovative - MECHANICALLY. From Social Stealth to the movement....everything in the game doesn't really have a parallel......it actually changed how I view environmental interaction (in relation to traversal) in games. So please don't confuse my post with another pointless demand for "Inovashun!".

The need of the hour is innovative gameplay and inspite of having cool mechanics (Tree parkour!) the game is now horribly banal. The game absolutely sucks at what it is trying to do (IMO).

While new mechanics and features and extremely important in delivering a fresh and engaging experience, it is a fallacy IMO to consider them to be the only driving force behind gameplay innovation...Basically I agree with you.

Lets take a look at FC3 and Dishonored to understand where the overall design is more important than the mechanics themselves to deliver an innovative gameplay experience

Farcry 3: It has 0 innovative mechanics. Not one thing can be called entirely original - moving, shooting, cover system, XP, Stealth etc. All of them are derivative....very well polished though..but ultimately derivative.

NOTE: It would unfair to credit FC3 and not crediting Crysis 1 which, IMO, is the spiritual successor to the franchise...and to this day is an excellent example of a proper sandbox game

but the game innovates in the sense that the overall systems in play (AI, Stealth, Vehicles, Combat, Wildlife) make for a VERY dynamic and engaging experience. Each camp takedown can be surprisingly different and Murphy's law rears its beautiful head all the time. THAT is the strength of the game.

The core mechanics are not game changing...but the way they interplay with each other and the way the game world REACTS to the player is very very very well designed and developed. THAT is what I want with AC.

THAT SAID

Coming back to my first post. The reason why I would support such additions (canon/non-canon) is that they give the player more options in a game which has become very linear and restrictive thanks to daft AI and generally horrendous mission design.

The ability to go invisible and move around like Dishonored opens up new ways to move around and create a sandbox out of almost every mission thanks to the newfound power of OmniTraversal.

Imagine the Bunker Hill assassination in AC3 (IIRC that was the sole battlefield assassination right?) with these mechanics...it would grant more freedom to the player in terms of approach and playstyle.

If we can't have better AI and mission design, might as well have more powerful tools and mechanics.


TL;DR

I agree with you that simply adding mechanics won't necessarily equate to innovation and it can't be forced....BUT given the context and the state of the franchise I wouldn't mind a solid helping of new mechanics to infuse some freshness into the gameplay

ProletariatPleb
03-14-2013, 10:48 AM
Sid(dharth?), the franchise IS a joke at this point.



I think you're confusing "Innovative Gameplay" with "Innovative Mechanics"

Allow me to elaborate (and in doing so better explain my first post)

What I am asking for is not just new mechanics and features out of the blue...what I am asking for is gameplay which is more engaging, allows creative solutions to in-game problems and relies more on user input and decisions to create awesome gameplay scenarios rather than scripted, designer created stuff.

I do not want innovation for innovation's sake....I do want a game which offers an experience which is dynamic. (FC3, Dishonored, DX)

Assassin's Creed is inherently VERY innovative - MECHANICALLY. From Social Stealth to the movement....everything in the game doesn't really have a parallel......it actually changed how I view environmental interaction (in relation to traversal) in games. So please don't confuse my post with another pointless demand for "Inovashun!".

The need of the hour is innovative gameplay and inspite of having cool mechanics (Tree parkour!) the game is now horribly banal. The game absolutely sucks at what it is trying to do (IMO).

While new mechanics and features and extremely important in delivering a fresh and engaging experience, it is a fallacy IMO to consider them to be the only driving force behind gameplay innovation...Basically I agree with you.

Lets take a look at FC3 and Dishonored to understand where the overall design is more important than the mechanics themselves to deliver an innovative gameplay experience

Farcry 3: It has 0 innovative mechanics. Not one thing can be called entirely original - moving, shooting, cover system, XP, Stealth etc. All of them are derivative....very well polished though..but ultimately derivative.

NOTE: It would unfair to credit FC3 and not crediting Crysis 1 which, IMO, is the spiritual successor to the franchise...and to this day is an excellent example of a proper sandbox game

but the game innovates in the sense that the overall systems in play (AI, Stealth, Vehicles, Combat, Wildlife) make for a VERY dynamic and engaging experience. Each camp takedown can be surprisingly different and Murphy's law rears its beautiful head all the time. THAT is the strength of the game.

The core mechanics are not game changing...but the way they interplay with each other and the way the game world REACTS to the player is very very very well designed and developed. THAT is what I want with AC.

THAT SAID

Coming back to my first post. The reason why I would support such additions (canon/non-canon) is that they give the player more options in a game which has become very linear and restrictive thanks to daft AI and generally horrendous mission design.

The ability to go invisible and move around like Dishonored opens up new ways to move around and create a sandbox out of almost every mission thanks to the newfound power of OmniTraversal.

Imagine the Bunker Hill assassination in AC3 (IIRC that was the sole battlefield assassination right?) with these mechanics...it would grant more freedom to the player in terms of approach and playstyle.

If we can't have better AI and mission design, might as well have more powerful tools and mechanics.


TL;DR

I agree with you that simply adding mechanics won't necessarily equate to innovation and it can't be forced....BUT given the context and the state of the franchise I wouldn't mind a solid helping of new mechanics to infuse some freshness into the gameplay
Nailed it.
Their strategy so far was tacking on additional useless, mostly disconnected mechanics and having large teams grind their time on those mechanics and then in the end stitching it all together.

However, I wouldn't resort to magic, the whole focus IMO has been having a tiny thread of our story with the historical setting being the BACKDROP, in AC3 it was the main focus it seems, ram-rodding Connor into every event. Assassin's Creed for me has been about authenticity. I get what you're trying to say, I really do, but if they resort to magic in this series I'm not gonna play it. If they wanna bring it back to glory, go back to the roots. Stop trying to please every man and his dog and stick to the core idea. Just how I feel, in no way trying to bash you, and yeah it's Siddharth.

Sushiglutton
03-14-2013, 10:58 AM
TL;DR

I agree with you that simply adding mechanics won't necessarily equate to innovation and it can't be forced....BUT given the context and the state of the franchise I wouldn't mind a solid helping of new mechanics to infuse some freshness into the gameplay


I agree a lot with what you are saying. I think I tried to make a similar point in my thread about AC3 vs BF3 youtube vids: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/746404-The-difference-between-AC3-and-BF3-youtube-videos . But I think this can be accomplished in a non magical way. For example more interactive enviroments, more uses for the ropedart and similar gadgets (shoot rope arrows to create ziplines like in Tomb Raider, build more elaborate traps etc), destructible enviroments (like blow up a bridge), different arrow heads, free aim etc etc.

It doesn't have to be realistic, somewhat over the top is fine with me. But introducing a bunch of magical abilities would be a misstake imo. There are so many sci-fi/fantasy games out there. What makes AC unique is the grounding in a historical setting/era. I think they should keep that feel and not go nuts in a desperate attempt to revitalise the franchise.


(I did read your entire post btw not just this quoted part :) )

Farlander1991
03-14-2013, 11:21 AM
2shobhit

Which is why I'm saying that what AC needs is iteration :) (which is pretty much what you're also talking about)

(and, to avoid confusion, I mean iteration in game design sense, not programming or mathematical sense... you know what I'm talking about if you've read the last few pages).

ProletariatPleb
03-14-2013, 11:22 AM
and, to avoid confusion, I mean iteration in game design sense, not programming or mathematical sense... you know what I'm talking about if you've read the last few pages.
Stop throwing salt in my wound >_>

Farlander1991
03-14-2013, 11:24 AM
Stop throwing salt in my wound >_>

Sorry, didn't mean anything negative, mocking or sarcastic by that :(

ProletariatPleb
03-14-2013, 11:25 AM
Sorry, didn't mean anything negative, mocking or sarcastic by that :(
It was a joke :P

Farlander1991
03-14-2013, 11:26 AM
It was a joke :P

Ah. Right. It's 3.30 in the morning, my joke detector is broken. I think I need to go to sleep now.

shobhit7777777
03-14-2013, 11:45 AM
Nailed it.
Their strategy so far was tacking on additional useless, mostly disconnected mechanics and having large teams grind their time on those mechanics and then in the end stitching it all together.

However, I wouldn't resort to magic, the whole focus IMO has been having a tiny thread of our story with the historical setting being the BACKDROP, in AC3 it was the main focus it seems, ram-rodding Connor into every event. Assassin's Creed for me has been about authenticity. I get what you're trying to say, I really do, but if they resort to magic in this series I'm not gonna play it. If they wanna bring it back to glory, go back to the roots. Stop trying to please every man and his dog and stick to the core idea. Just how I feel, in no way trying to bash you, and yeah it's Siddharth.

At this point I'm open to magic because I am just exhausted by the stagnancy of the series. AC could've been a SMART game. Dishonored is a smart game. Splinter Cell Conviction is a smart game. Crysis 1 is a smart game. Batman AA/AC is a smart game. Legacy R6 and Ghost Recon were smart games. DayZ is a smart game. FC2/FC3 were smart games.

AC just...IDK...it fell into mediocre cash cow category failing to expand the core systems which were the most innovative in the first place.


I agree a lot with what you are saying. I think I tried to make a similar point in my thread about AC3 vs BF3 youtube vids: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/746404-The-difference-between-AC3-and-BF3-youtube-videos . But I think this can be accomplished in a non magical way. For example more interactive enviroments, more uses for the ropedart and similar gadgets (shoot rope arrows to create ziplines like in Tomb Raider, build more elaborate traps etc), destructible enviroments (like blow up a bridge), different arrow heads, free aim etc etc.

It doesn't have to be realistic, somewhat over the top is fine with me. But introducing a bunch of magical abilities would be a misstake imo. There are so many sci-fi/fantasy games out there. What makes AC unique is the grounding in a historical setting/era. I think they should keep that feel and not go nuts in a desperate attempt to revitalise the franchise.


(I did read your entire post btw not just this quoted part :) )

Brother, I've been barking about the very same issues plaguing AC3 since before ACR. Its just that it took AC3 to finally blow the lid on this mess. I am so disappointed and jaded at this point with the series that I'm ready to accept Magical stuff if it improves the core gameplay even by a small margin.

I have to say that I'm super glad that You and guys like Farlander are finally bringing this stuff to the centerstage.



2shobhit

Which is why I'm saying that what AC needs is iteration :) (which is pretty much what you're also talking about)

(and, to avoid confusion, I mean iteration in game design sense, not programming or mathematical sense... you know what I'm talking about if you've read the last few pages).

Like I said...I basically agree with you. I just wanted to clarify my first post.

That said....an improvement in the design is only half of the battle. A complete overhaul of the AI and the way the player interacts with it is heavily dependent on the C++ Bunnies @ Ubi.

Although the addition of the Eagle and Wolf powers DOES indeed open up new avenues....hence my inclination towards their inclusion.