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BATISTABUS
03-12-2013, 05:05 AM
http://i208.photobucket.com/albums/bb218/justinbatista12/hero_zpsb76ed3dc.png

I’ve often read that Assassin’s Creed 3 did not have an interesting or memorable cast of characters. Most frequently, these sentiments are paired with demonstrating AC2’s superiority over AC3, along with the rest of the franchise.


The purpose of this thread is to compare and contrast the casts from AC2 and AC3, and discuss which has the best lineup. Characters will be compared to similar archetypes from the other game. Leave Ezio and Connor out of this…that can be a fight for another day.


Remember; this is AC2 vs AC3. Do not take Brotherhood,Revelations, or Embers into account. It is okay to consider DLC, except for in instances where it conflicts with the character's personality from the main story (i.e.Washington). This is certainly a subjective exercise, but you should try to make the analysis as objective and critical as possible. I’d like to hear what you guys have to say about the characters on your own, or what you think of my analysis. This took me a decent amount of time to complete, so feel free to be less detailed with your answers if you're not willing to commit this much time to it.


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The Father

Giovanni Auditore vs Haytham Kenway

Winner: Haytham Kenway

Haytham is in another league than Giovanni, and not just because 3 hours were devoted to this character. Haytham was not only well-developed,strong, smooth, and in-charge, but he also served as a foil to Connor’s brash optimism. Even if Giovanni did get some game time, he would have likely been a less playful version of Ezio.

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The Best Friend

Leonardo da Vinci vs Kanen'tó:kon

Winner: Leonardo da Vinci

Kanen'tó:kon grew up with Connor. He went from a chubby klutz to a fiercely driven warrior, but still retained his gentle side. The conflict between two old best friends is one of the most tragic moments of AC3. Even so,Leonardo still takes this one in my opinion. His relationship with Ezio is extremely playful and warm, and you just can’t help but smile every time they interact.It also helps that Leonardo da Vinci is one of the greatest geniuses that ever lived, and he just so happens to design gear for you.

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The Mentor

Mario Auditore vs Achilles Davenport

Winner: Achilles Davenport

Mario is a jolly head-honcho type; he’s the leader that takes care of all of all of his people, and they are happy to have him in charge. He’s a supportive uncle to Ezio, and is very effective in teaching him the ways of the Assassins in a short amount of time. Achilles is quite different from Mario; he’s pessimistic, grumpy, and even seemingly depressed at times. Not only is he ashamed of his failure as an Assassin, but he is seemingly further taken down a peg by the fact that he is a minority. Through Connor he is able to open up, care again, and have hope. He can be stern and antagonistic at times, but he is a caring father figure with a genuine delivery.

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The Mother (or the Female Relative)

Maria Auditore (or Claudia) vs Kaniehtí:io

Winner: Kaniehtí:io

As with Haytham and Giovanni, this one is hardly a contest. Ziio is a strong, independent woman who is in a predicament similar to Connor. She is not white, but she speaks fluent English and can interact with Western society. Even though she is a Native, she seems to be somewhat distant from her tribe (we see more of this in TOKW). She gets what she wants, and loves her son very much. While Maria Auditore can have attitude, she is still very much fragile and submissive. She survives the depression of a terrible loss, but never takes a role quite like Ziio. Claudia would’ve given Ziio more of a competition had this been AC:B (Ziio still would’ve taken it), but in AC2 she is mainly reserved to taking notes and complaining.

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The Target

Rodrigo “The Spaniard” Borgia vs Charles Lee

Winner: Tie

Both of these characters ultimately amount to the same thing; a generic despicable villain that the main character REALLY wants to kill. Charles Lee has some pretty sinister speeches, but Rodrigo is the POPE. The Spaniard looks like a demon lurking in the shadows, while Lee has a kick-*** death scene. Where Lee is a suck up and a sore loser, Rodrigo is ultimately incompetent.Both have distinct voices delivered by talented voice actors. This one’s too close to call. It's not to say that I don't like these characters or I think that they are boring, but they don't hold up to that Assassin's Creed grey area we've all come to love.


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The Political Ally

Lorenzo de’ Medici vs Samuel Adams

Winner: Sam Adams

Lorenzo de’ Medici is a completely forgettable character whose title is his most interesting quality. Sam Adams is charismatic and good at rallying support, but still has a more selfish, manipulative quality to him. He is certainly a more complex character, and a much better use of a political figure that most of us only know from beer.

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The Crazy (in a good way) General

Bartolomeo d’Alviano vs Israel Putnam

Winner: Tie

These guys are basically the same character from different eras, and they even have the same voice actor. Bartolomeo comes off as a little more unhinged at times, while Putnam can even be somewhat mean-spirited. Either way, Bartolomeo and Putnam are fearless leaders who almost literally laugh in the face of death.

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The Political Ally and Friend

Caterina Sforza vs George Washington

Winner: George Washington

Caterina starts off as a flirty damsel in distress, but eventually is revealed to be a powerful, and even crude, woman and mother. Sheis such a strong personality that even the charmer Ezio cannot completely tame her. Washington is an imperfect man who is often unsure of himself, but devotes his life to his country and commits himself to doing the right thing. He doesn’t always succeed quite like Connor, and in that way they are kindred spirits. Even though there is a fallout between these characters, they seem to some what reconnect at the end (over a game of boccie). The complications of their relationship are what make it so interesting. Besides that, there’s the Leonardo effect of meeting such a prestigious figure. If Brotherhood were to be considered, I may have chosen Caterina.

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The Intellectual

Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli vs Benjamin Franklin

Winner: Tie

Where Franklin probably has less than 10 lines, Machiavelli is just... boring. They both have the dazzling effect of da Vinci and Washington, but both feel under-utilized. Franklin has an insightful discussion with Haytham about women, and Machiavelli is the leader of the Italian Assassins. If Brotherhood was to be considered, Machiavelli takes on an unlikely role by somehow being less wise than Ezio. It’s an interesting dynamic, but I would’ve liked to have seen it handled differently.

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The Love Interest

Winner: Christina Vespucci (by default)

In AC2, the relationship between Ezio and Christina is very minimal,but at least it exists (It ended up being very touching in Brotherhood). I’m not saying a love interest is integral in having a compelling story and cast of characters, but it is certainly something I like to see in appropriate (small) doses.There is some speculation about potential love interest candidates for Connor,but that seems to be up to fan speculation for now.


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The Other Side Characters

La Volpe, Rosa, Paola, Frederico Auditore, Claudia Auditore,Petruccio Auditore, and Antonio de Magianis vs The Homesteaders, Robert Faulkner and the Aquila Crew, and The Recruits

Winner: AC3’s

The AC2 brotherhood side characters are cool and stylish,but have very forgettable personalities. Ezio has touching moments with his family,even if they are short-lived. The Homesteaders and Faulkner all interact with Connor in unique ways, but some are more interesting than others. Recruits have very little screen time (aside from Stephane Chapheau), and I’ll admit I haven’t interacted with all of them. Even so, I’d say a select few push AC3’s extras up enough to take the win, but it’s not a strong victory. If nothing else, they have the benefit of quantity.


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Overall, not only do I think AC3 had better complex, interesting, and well developed characters, but there were also more of them in more important roles. AC2 had plenty of gems, but overall many characters were forgettable,or just amounted to safe archetypes.

Edit: For some reason, a bunch of spaces didn't copy paste...so sorry for anyone who read this before I fixed it.

mazohystic
03-12-2013, 05:18 AM
Wow I pretty much agree with all of these! Except for Sforza, I always had a soft spot for her. I'd take her over Washington any day! But you have good reasoning. I find it hard to differentiate AC2 and ACB sometimes because I literally played them one after the other so I'm biased. If it weren't for ACB, I'm pretty sure I'd pick Washington as well.

Farlander1991
03-12-2013, 05:22 AM
I also would like to mention that AC3 has much better Templar/Assassination targets than AC2. A lot of it is thanks to the prologue sequence, but even without it... Johnson's, Pitcairn's, Hickey's, Church's (and even Biddle's who's a purely side-story Templar) personalities are a lot better and death speeches are much more deep and thoughtful than in AC2.

AC2 has a lots of assassination targets, sure, but the ones that I can remember off the top of my head are Uberto Alberti, Savanarola, the three members of the Pazzi family... and I guess Dante Moro with Silvio Barbarigo (because they've proved to be quite a pain in the *** in Venice's storyline). And even then, only Uberto (because he betrayed our family to protect his), Savanarola and Dante are the interesting ones out all those, in my opinion.

BATISTABUS
03-12-2013, 05:25 AM
I also would like to mention that AC3 has much better Templar/Assassination targets than AC2. A lot of it is thanks to the prologue sequence, but even without it... Johnson's, Pitcairn's, Hickey's, Church's (and even Biddle's who's a purely side-story Templar) personalities are a lot better and death speeches are much more deep and thoughtful than in AC2.

AC2 has a lots of assassination targets, sure, but the ones that I can remember off the top of my head are Uberto Alberti, Savanarola, the three members of the Pazzi family... and I guess Dante Moro with Silvio Barbarigo (because they've proved to be quite a pain in the *** in Venice's storyline). And even then, only Uberto (because he betrayed our family to protect his), Savanarola and Dante are the interesting ones out all those, in my opinion.

Agreed. To be perfectly honest, I can't even remember most of the AC2 contracts enough to write two sentences about them (I did a complete play-through for the second time 2 weeks before AC3 came out), and I didn't want to just half-*** a description and discredit the rest of my effort.

mattduck69
03-12-2013, 05:34 AM
I too agree with majority of it.
the father- i agree, haytham was an incredible character
the best friend- i agree, everytime da vinci was on the screen was awesome.
the mentor- i somewhat agree, I did like achillies, he was my second favourite character out of the game, but i just cant help but love mario. His knowledge, hes care for ezio but also for the brotherhood, everything, so IMO that ones a tie.
the mother- agreed, although wasnt really a debate because maria didnt even talk throughout ac2 after the deaths...but before that she was pretty funny(I meant besides ******s!)
the target-hmm i dunno, I move towards rodrigo..he was more the leader and the man with the plan. Unlike charles who I just thought was the puppet that haytham was using for political reasons.
the political ally- I prefered Lorenzo. Mostly because of his history with ezios family..
the crazy general- completley agree! they are both equally hilarious and badass
the political ally- agree
the intellectual- i agree but if this had acb in mind, definetly machiavelli
the love interest-dur

I-Like-Pie45
03-12-2013, 05:59 AM
I thought that Lee was a pretty nice guy when we were playing as Haytham, but man what a *bleep* he turned out to be later.

I still question making him the ultimate villain when Haytham would've filled that spot with more of an emotional and symbolic edge, but yeah, amazing death scene kinda makes up for his lack of development or grayness in the Connor sections.

And I agree that the bulk of AC2 targets lacked memorability. Seriously I can hardly recall their characters other than things like Vieri is an annoying ****** (kinda like a proto-Cesare), that bearded guy was old, and that guy thought Ezio wouldn't go looking for him in a monastery.

On the other hand, while AC3 has fewer targets I still remember each of them. Edward Braddock was the sadistic and rather incompetent general, William Johnson was the gentler Templar who respected the Natives and geniunely seemed that he didn't want to harm them, John Pitcairn wanted to avoid war and solve things peacefully, Thomas Hickey was a scumbag who became a Templar just for his own benefit, Benjamin Church was the selfish doctor who became disillusioned with the Templar cause, Haytham was the man conflicted between his duties as a Templar and desire to form a relationship with Connor, etc.

Farlander1991
03-12-2013, 06:08 AM
I thought that Lee was a pretty nice guy when we were playing as Haytham, but man what a *bleep* he turned out to be later.

I still question making him the ultimate villain when Haytham would've filled that spot with more of an emotional and symbolic edge, but yeah, amazing death scene kinda makes up for his lack of development or grayness in the Connor sections.

There's actually a theory that Animus takes personal perception into the account. That's why Lee in Haytham's memories is more noble than in Connor's ones. Could also be used for the explanation why the Templars were so 'bad' in AC2 and AC:B, Ezio didn't really care about their cause, mostly revenge (and, well, he didn't) and in AC:R he got wiser. Although that's, really, just trying to explain the absence of gray area in AC2 and AC:B rather than why it was written that way in the first place.

Plus, maybe Lee did indeed become a worse person overtime, because... That's kinda what happens when you have to go over people's heads to gain leadership.


that guy thought Ezio wouldn't go looking for him in a monastery.

Uhm, who?

I-Like-Pie45
03-12-2013, 06:15 AM
^he was the bald guy we killed during the Tuscany sequence. Stefano da Bagnone, the wikia tells me.

I guess I was trying to show that ultimately, it was the assassinations we remembered more from AC2 than the actual targets themselves.

Farlander1991
03-12-2013, 06:20 AM
^he was the bald guy we killed during the Tuscany sequence. Stefano da Bagnone, the wikia tells me.

I guess I was trying to show that ultimately, it was the assassinations we remembered more from AC2 than the actual targets themselves.

Oh yeah... totally forgot about that guy...

The assassination I remember from Tuscany is the one where we have to climb the tower.

AjinkyaParuleka
03-12-2013, 06:52 AM
I agree with most of them.
Ubisoft did a good job adding only 6-7 main targets in the game,I can remember all of them and why they were killed by Connor as for AC2..I remember itsamemario,Machiavelli,Cristina,Sforza,Leonardo and Pope,but I don't even know who the 5th target was.

roostersrule2
03-12-2013, 06:56 AM
Bartolemeo>Putnam
Lorenzo>Sam Adams
Machivelli>Ben Franklin
Mario=Achilles
The rest are good IMO

xx-pyro
03-12-2013, 06:59 AM
Sforza beats Washington 100%, and Machiavelli destroys Ben Franklin. Besides those I think I can agree with your assessment, the AC3 cast was slightly better in my opinion.

Farlander1991
03-12-2013, 07:09 AM
Eh, if you don't take into account AC:B (which this comparison doesn't), both Machiavelli and Franklin are kinda crappy side-characters that don't really do anything and are there just for an 'additional historical figure' value. Yeah, Nicollo's the leader of the Italian Assassins, but that position doesn't really value to anything in his AC2 portrayal.

I do like Machiavelli in his AC:B portrayal, though.

Assassin_M
03-12-2013, 07:43 AM
Agreed with everything, BUT Sforza and Washington..

Sforza just pwns him in my opinion...even though she only appeared for 5 minutes...

roostersrule2
03-12-2013, 07:44 AM
Agreed with everything, BUT Sforza and Washington..

Sforza just pwns him in my opinion...even though she only appeared for 5 minutes...Even Franklin and Machivelli? I didn't even know we could talk to Franklin again untill about 3 days ago.

Assassin_M
03-12-2013, 07:48 AM
Even Franklin and Machivelli? I didn't even know we could talk to Franklin again untill about 3 days ago.
Franklin`s conversation beats Machiavelli`s 3 minutes of face time in AC II, in my honest opinion...

roostersrule2
03-12-2013, 07:51 AM
Franklin`s conversation beats Machiavelli`s 3 minutes of face time in AC II, in my honest opinion...Oh AC2 only, sorry forgot.

Assassin_M
03-12-2013, 08:12 AM
Oh AC2 only, sorry forgot.
I loved Machiavelli....He was awesome in Brotherhood...favorite character...AC II did not do him justice..

roostersrule2
03-12-2013, 08:14 AM
I loved Machiavelli....He was awesome in Brotherhood...favorite character...AC II did not do him justice..Indeed, him and Bartolemeo were the best side characters.

Assassin_M
03-12-2013, 08:18 AM
Indeed, him and Bartolemeo were the best side characters.
The interaction between Ezio and Bartolameo was badass..

"I will see you on the battle field" like they`re going to have lunch or somethin` xD

hated him in ACB, though...he showed tactical strategy in AC II, but then became a total dimwit in ACB to make way for Ezio shining as an intelligent strategist...I`d have liked it if they kept Bartolameo`s intellect and added this new strategic side to Ezio...Barto was basically a caveman in ACB...

roostersrule2
03-12-2013, 08:20 AM
The interaction between Ezio and Bartolameo was badass..

"I will see you on the battle field" like they`re going to have lunch or somethin` xD

hated him in ACB, though...he showed tactical strategy in AC II, but then became a total dimwit in ACB to make way for Ezio shining as an intelligent strategist...I`d have liked it if they kept Bartolameo`s intellect and added this new strategic side to Ezio...Barto was basically a caveman in ACB...Yes but he was funny.

Assassin_M
03-12-2013, 08:23 AM
Yes but he was funny.
For me, not really an excuse to dumb down a very intelligent General historically..

They could`v given that funny element to a new character instead..

roostersrule2
03-12-2013, 08:28 AM
For me, not really an excuse to dumb down a very intelligent General historically..

They could`v given that funny element to a new character instead..Perhaps, but he wasn't super dumb just didn't have as good as plans as he once did.

Assassin_M
03-12-2013, 08:30 AM
Perhaps, but he wasn't super dumb just didn't have as good as plans as he once did.
Not super dumb ? he says "Ahh Yes.......Then what ?" To the most obvious final step of Ezio`s plan xD

So not only does he not have plans, he also lacks common sense..

roostersrule2
03-12-2013, 08:31 AM
Not super dumb ? he says "Ahh Yes.......Then what ?" To the most obvious final step of Ezio`s plan xD

So not only does he not have plans, he also lacks common sense..Maybe he hid all of his smarts under a table.

Assassin_M
03-12-2013, 08:32 AM
Maybe he hid all of his smarts under a table.
Well played...

roostersrule2
03-12-2013, 08:34 AM
Well played...I thought so.

SixKeys
03-12-2013, 01:26 PM
I'm going to have to side with AC2 characters on all of these. The only possible exceptions being Haytham and Ziio. I just started a new playthrough of AC2 yesterday and was reminded just how much I enjoy all the characters, even bit players like Giovanni. His voice-acting, particularly in the letters, really shines and elevates the character to so much more than what we saw in the game. Haytham is the best character in AC3, but in the end I could still see a lot of missed potential. Perhaps I would have liked him even more if we had played through the whole game as him. Ziio was great, I do prefer her over Maria Auditore.

As for all the rest, I'm gonna have to go with the AC2 characters. Machiavelli may have been rather boring in AC2, but still better handled than Ben Franklin. Same with Lorenzo de Medici vs. Sam Adams. During AC3 I constantly kept forgetting "who is this guy again? Have we met?" whenever I ran into Adams, he was that forgettable. I liked Lorenzo's soft-spoken manner contrasted with the gruesome assassination contracts he sent to Ezio. In those contracts his political determination which we know from history came through well, while in person he seemed like a benevolent teacher. Putnam was probably my second favorite character in AC3, but sadly only had one good scene. Caterina vs. Washington: no contest, Caterina. Washington was truly a letdown as a character.

TheHumanTowel
03-12-2013, 01:49 PM
I disagree on the other side-characters. I thought the Homesteaders were all rather bland and boring. I even came to outright dislike some of them the way the missions had Connor essentially doing all their work for them. Why is Connor going to such lengths to help Norris court Myriam? And why does Myriam even like Norris it was Connor who did all the work? There's not much interesting about the recruits apart from a few standouts like Dobby and Stephan Chapeau, although in Chapeau's case it's not for the right reasons. I HATE him. Just a bloodthirsty murderer we're supposed to like despite having no likable qualities about him. Worst AC character ever. Faulkner is a good character no arguments there.

I found La Vople, Antonio and Rosa far more memorable and distinct than AC3's side-characters. They've each got their own personality and they actually interact with Ezio in meaningful ways instead of through the happy neighbourhood simulator of the Homestead.

SixKeys
03-12-2013, 02:03 PM
I disagree on the other side-characters. I thought the Homesteaders were all rather bland and boring. I even came to outright dislike some of them the way the missions had Connor essentially doing all their work for them. Why is Connor going to such lengths to help Norris court Myriam? And why does Myriam even like Norris it was Connor who did all the work? There's not much interesting about the recruits apart from a few standouts like Dobby and Stephan Chapeau, although in Chapeau's case it's not for the right reasons. I HATE him. Just a bloodthirsty murderer we're supposed to like despite having no likable qualities about him. Worst AC character ever. Faulkner is a good character no arguments there.


Agreed on Norris. I found it especially annoying when after Connor had climbed a freaking mountain and fought off some wolves to get some flowers for Myriam and it turned out she didn't like them, Norris complained: "I knew it was a stupid idea, getting her flowers!" Basically he made Connor do all the work and then insulted Connor's idea (Connor was the one who suggested it to Norris). Fine, jacka$$, next time YOU come up with some ideas and actually work for them. :p

The only Homestead characters I thought had potential were the doctor and the seamstress, but they came into the game so late we didn't really have time to get to know them.

TheHumanTowel
03-12-2013, 02:20 PM
Agreed on Norris. I found it especially annoying when after Connor had climbed a freaking mountain and fought off some wolves to get some flowers for Myriam and it turned out she didn't like them, Norris complained: "I knew it was a stupid idea, getting her flowers!" Basically he made Connor do all the work and then insulted Connor's idea (Connor was the one who suggested it to Norris). Fine, jacka$$, next time YOU come up with some ideas and actually work for them. :p

The only Homestead characters I thought had potential were the doctor and the seamstress, but they came into the game so late we didn't really have time to get to know them.
There was another part where you have to defend Norris while he blows a hole in some British mine to get something for Myriam. You actually have to kill British soldiers so this guy can get a present for a girl he likes. It was an absurd escalation. Connor threw a hissy fit when Haytham needlessly killed a soldier but he's okay with murdering people so his friend can impress a girl? There was another part where Dave makes you buy him tools, with your own money. Buy them yourself ****head!

Sushiglutton
03-12-2013, 02:49 PM
Ha, I choose the AC2 character in all categories but the Father. I guess I just prefer the overall tone in AC2 over AC3 and that reflects a lot on the characters. AC2 was a much more lighthearted, matiné, type of adventure. Some characters were a bit over the top caricatures, but to me that is not a bad thing, on the contrary it adds to the mood. I enjoyed following AC2's story and the people inhabiting it, but in AC3 I just didn't care as much.

Kaschra
03-12-2013, 04:26 PM
I disagree with most of these choices.

Giovanni < Haytham (okay, this is easy: Haytham of course. My favourite character alongside Clay)
Leonardo > Kanen'tó:kon ( Iike Kanen, but I love Leo)
Mario - Achilles (this one is pretty hard, because I like both... maybe Mario slightly more. Maybe)
Maria < Ziio (Points to Ziio)
Rodrigo < Lee (Most likely Lee)
Lorenzo > Adams (I really don't like Samuel Adams. I really don't)
Bartolomeo > Putnam (this one is really easy: Bartolomeo of course!)
Caterina > Washington (IMO Washington was one of the most boring characters of the whole game. Caterina FTW)
Machiavelli > Ben Franklin (Since I can count the DLC's in - Machiavelli for sure. I expected much more from Franklin)


Side characters:
AC2. I found the overall cast to be really likable. Even though a lot of characters had not much screentime, like Federico, I really cared for them.
Unlike AC3. Especially the Patriots. I found most of them to be not memorable, even worse, I forgot about the existence of some of the characters. I stopped caring alltogether for them.
The Homeasteaders are nice though... most of them.

lothario-da-be
03-12-2013, 06:27 PM
Bartolomeo is way better then Putnam, Putnam never fought, just said how stupid Connor was, while Bartolomeo....

Bastiaen
03-12-2013, 06:58 PM
I also would like to mention that AC3 has much better Templar/Assassination targets than AC2. A lot of it is thanks to the prologue sequence, but even without it... Johnson's, Pitcairn's, Hickey's, Church's (and even Biddle's who's a purely side-story Templar) personalities are a lot better and death speeches are much more deep and thoughtful than in AC2.

AC2 has a lots of assassination targets, sure, but the ones that I can remember off the top of my head are Uberto Alberti, Savanarola, the three members of the Pazzi family... and I guess Dante Moro with Silvio Barbarigo (because they've proved to be quite a pain in the *** in Venice's storyline). And even then, only Uberto (because he betrayed our family to protect his), Savanarola and Dante are the interesting ones out all those, in my opinion.
Absolutely.... This took me right back to AC1's awesome discussions.

SixKeys
03-12-2013, 07:52 PM
I also would like to mention that AC3 has much better Templar/Assassination targets than AC2. A lot of it is thanks to the prologue sequence, but even without it... Johnson's, Pitcairn's, Hickey's, Church's (and even Biddle's who's a purely side-story Templar) personalities are a lot better and death speeches are much more deep and thoughtful than in AC2.

AC2 has a lots of assassination targets, sure, but the ones that I can remember off the top of my head are Uberto Alberti, Savanarola, the three members of the Pazzi family... and I guess Dante Moro with Silvio Barbarigo (because they've proved to be quite a pain in the *** in Venice's storyline). And even then, only Uberto (because he betrayed our family to protect his), Savanarola and Dante are the interesting ones out all those, in my opinion.

The most memorable AC2 targets for me were Jacopo de Pazzi, Carlo Grimaldi, Dante and Silvio. I remember them better than most of the AC3 targets, possibly because of the magnificent settings (like Carlo in the Doge's palace, Jacopo in the Roman ruins). I remember the missions themselves better than the actual targets. The most prominent AC3 targets I can remember off the top of my head were Pitcairn, Haytham (because it was so anti-climactic) and Johnson. I do agree the villains in AC3 were better developed. A shame that so many of the assassination missions were just "press X for cut scene".

LoyalACFan
03-13-2013, 12:52 AM
Completely disagree with Rodrigo and Lee being a tie. By the end of III, I didn't even care about Lee anymore, since he was basically just a bum by that point. He didn't even seem like he posed a threat anymore, it was all about Connor's personal vendetta. On the other hand, Rodrigo was top dog when Ezio went after him, and still remained interesting because of that.

nitres15
03-13-2013, 01:09 AM
nuh uh, Caterina sforza was way better than Georgie

IronEagl3
03-13-2013, 02:47 AM
I also would like to mention that AC3 has much better Templar/Assassination targets than AC2. A lot of it is thanks to the prologue sequence, but even without it... Johnson's, Pitcairn's, Hickey's, Church's (and even Biddle's who's a purely side-story Templar) personalities are a lot better and death speeches are much more deep and thoughtful than in AC2.

AC2 has a lots of assassination targets, sure, but the ones that I can remember off the top of my head are Uberto Alberti, Savanarola, the three members of the Pazzi family... and I guess Dante Moro with Silvio Barbarigo (because they've proved to be quite a pain in the *** in Venice's storyline). And even then, only Uberto (because he betrayed our family to protect his), Savanarola and Dante are the interesting ones out all those, in my opinion.

What would make the speeches even better is if they took out the music after the assassination, to make it feel more creepy / mysterious. It just made it hard to listen to for some reason. Only time music was well suited was when Haytham and Connor's friend died.

BATISTABUS
03-13-2013, 08:46 PM
What would make the speeches even better is if they took out the music after the assassination, to make it feel more creepy / mysterious. It just made it hard to listen to for some reason. Only time music was well suited was when Haytham and Connor's friend died.
Hmm...I never thought about this. I really like how the cut-scenes are composed, but I did really like the silence in AC1.

Gil_217
03-13-2013, 10:17 PM
Giovanni vs Haytham - Haytham by a mile, and this is not a knock on Giovanni, it just happens that Haytham is one of the best characters in the franchise. The way he carried himself, full of confidence, the authority and respect he displayed, his charisma and aura, his intelligence and his more merciful/compassionate side in his younger years... It would be unfair for anyone going against Haytham.

Leonardo da Vinci vs Kanen'tó:kon - Again, Leonardo by a mile. He's probably one of the most likable characters in the whole series. His full of life personality, his humility, the way he lost himself whenever Ezio brought him something interesting, like the Codex pages and the Apple, his inventions, the way he talks and expresses himself and his relationship with Ezio are just great. Kanen'tó:kon was painfully boring. A truly forgettable character, unfortunately. If Ubisoft developed his character properly that final showdown would be so much better, more powerful, with much more emotion.

Mario Auditore vs Achilles Davenport - I like Mario, but Achilles wins this one. It's just that Achilles' personality is much more interesting and much more developed than Mario. And I loved that voice.

Maria Auditore vs Kaniehtí:io - This one isn't even a contest, Ziio wins by default considering this only includes Maria from AC2. Let's just say Maria was practically nonexistent in her respective game. Everyone going against Maria would automatically win.

Rodrigo Borgia vs Charles Lee - Like them both a lot, but I will go with Rodrigo, especially since this is only about his role in AC2. The determination that became obsession regarding the vault was really good. Add to this his ruthlessness, viciousness, killing everyone who stood in his way without remorse, and his huge ambition. He was pure evil.

Lorenzo de’ Medici vs Samuel Adams - This one is just whatever. They are both really forgettable characters, nothing really stands out on them, they are just there.

Bartolomeo d’Alviano vs Israel Putnam - Considering this is only AC2, of course Bartolomeo wins. A truly vivacious, spirited and joyful character that even if you didn't like him you will still remember him. A memorable character indeed.

Caterina Sforza vs George Washington - Obviously, Caterina wins this, and I don't think this one even needs an explanation. Washington was a terrible character, just completely bad at everything. A missed chance. He is still terrible in the DLC. Probably the worst antagonist of all time.

Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli vs Benjamin Franklin - Can't choose because their roles in their respective games were too short. There's literally nothing that makes me choose one over the other.

The love interest one is invalid and unfair to do, since we do not have one in AC3. Dat purity!

AC2 wins for me, what a surprise.

BATISTABUS
03-13-2013, 10:29 PM
The love interest one is invalid and unfair to do, since we do not have one in AC3. Dat purity!
I included the love interest because it's an important archetype in storytelling. Even though AC3 didn't have a comparison, it's still something that adds to the quality of AC2's cast.

Farlander1991
03-13-2013, 10:32 PM
I included the love interest because it's an important archetype in storytelling. Even though AC3 didn't have a comparison, it's still something that adds to the quality of AC2's cast.

Does it, though? In AC2, Cristina doesn't feel like she's someone special, just a random girl Ezio hangs out with. It's not until AC:B (in games, that is, as far as I know she was more developed in the AC2 novel) that Cristina becomes a lot more than that.

Kaschra
03-13-2013, 10:33 PM
True that, you only see Cristina once in AC2. She's more like some random girl in that game.

BATISTABUS
03-13-2013, 10:35 PM
Does it, though? In AC2, Cristina doesn't feel like she's someone special, just a random girl Ezio hangs out with. It's not until AC:B (in games, that is, as far as I know she was more developed in the AC2 novel) that Cristina becomes a lot more than that.
Well, it really doesn't, as I said she won by default. Even so, I think a strong relationship can really help out the plot in all kinds of media (like in Brotherhood and Revelations). It just so happens that both games didn't really have a strong standing, but it's something I wanted to bring up. Even in AC2 I feel like it adds a tiny bit to the story, if for no other reason to help develop Ezio's personality.

For example, most action stories have the hero, the mentor, the villain, and the love interest. The rest of the archetypes were just elements these games had in common.

Farlander1991
03-13-2013, 10:40 PM
Well, it really doesn't, as I said she won by default. Even so, I think a strong relationship can really help out the plot in all kinds of media (like in Brotherhood and Revelations). It just so happens that both games didn't really have a strong standing, but it's something I wanted to bring up. Even in AC2 I feel like it adds a tiny bit to the story, if for no other reason to help develop Ezio's personality.

Well, if you take AC2 alone, Rosa feels more like a love interest than Cristina. We see how they meet, there's chemistry that starts brewing between them that's more than just 'Oh I'm a 17 year old boy who doesn't care about hardships in life and visits a girl at night to have sex with her' (which is exactly what I felt the scene with Cristina was supposed to represent when I first played AC), and, hell, Rosa even helps Ezio with his mid-life crisis moment (the '10 years I've been hunting the people responsible, but no closer to knowing what any of it was for' dialogue). I actually was really sad that the mid-life crisis dialogue is the last time we ever see Rosa (and the love interest part got suddenly abrupted) in any of Ezio's games.

BATISTABUS
03-13-2013, 10:43 PM
Well, if you take AC2 alone, Rosa feels more like a love interest than Cristina. We see how they meet, there's chemistry that starts brewing between them that's more than just 'Oh I'm a 17 year old boy who doesn't care about hardships in life and visits a girl at night to have sex with her' (which is exactly what I felt the scene with Cristina was supposed to represent when I first played AC), and, hell, Rosa even helps Ezio with his mid-life crisis moment (the '10 years I've been hunting the people responsible, but no closer to knowing what any of it was for' dialogue). I actually was really sad that the mid-life crisis dialogue is the last time we ever see Rosa (and the love interest part got suddenly abrupted) in any of Ezio's games.
Sure, then maybe that's something to consider too. I personally never saw Ezio's relationship with Rosa as anything besides being playful and supportive on both ends, but I could see how it could potentially be...deeper. :cool:

Gil_217
03-13-2013, 10:46 PM
Sure, then maybe that's something to consider too. I personally never saw Ezio's relationship with Rosa as anything besides being playful and supportive on both ends, but I could see how it could potentially be...deeper. :cool:

The AC2 novel strongly implies a relationship between both during that period of time. Since it doesn't really contradict the game, it adds to it actually, it's canon.

BATISTABUS
03-13-2013, 10:59 PM
The AC2 novel strongly implies a relationship between both during that period of time. Since it doesn't really contradict the game, it adds to it actually, it's canon.
I never read the novel. That's good to know, but this conversation was intended for what we see in the game and the DLCs.

And even so, I'm not really a subscriber to "if it doesn't contradict the game, it's canon". As far as I'm concerned, anything outside of the game (until it is included in the game like Daniel) is up to whatever the individual fan decides to accept.

LieutenantJojo
03-14-2013, 01:17 AM
Giovanni vs Haytham - Haytham by a mile, and this is not a knock on Giovanni, it just happens that Haytham is one of the best characters in the franchise. The way he carried himself, full of confidence, the authority and respect he displayed, his charisma and aura, his intelligence and his more merciful/compassionate side in his younger years... It would be unfair for anyone going against Haytham.

Leonardo da Vinci vs Kanen'tó:kon - Again, Leonardo by a mile. He's probably one of the most likable characters in the whole series. His full of life personality, his humility, the way he lost himself whenever Ezio brought him something interesting, like the Codex pages and the Apple, his inventions, the way he talks and expresses himself and his relationship with Ezio are just great. Kanen'tó:kon was painfully boring. A truly forgettable character, unfortunately. If Ubisoft developed his character properly that final showdown would be so much better, more powerful, with much more emotion.

Mario Auditore vs Achilles Davenport - I like Mario, but Achilles wins this one. It's just that Achilles' personality is much more interesting and much more developed than Mario. And I loved that voice.

Maria Auditore vs Kaniehtí:io - This one isn't even a contest, Ziio wins by default considering this only includes Maria from AC2. Let's just say Maria was practically nonexistent in her respective game. Everyone going against Maria would automatically win.

Rodrigo Borgia vs Charles Lee - Like them both a lot, but I will go with Rodrigo, especially since this is only about his role in AC2. The determination that became obsession regarding the vault was really good. Add to this his ruthlessness, viciousness, killing everyone who stood in his way without remorse, and his huge ambition. He was pure evil.

Lorenzo de’ Medici vs Samuel Adams - This one is just whatever. They are both really forgettable characters, nothing really stands out on them, they are just there.

Bartolomeo d’Alviano vs Israel Putnam - Considering this is only AC2, of course Bartolomeo wins. A truly vivacious, spirited and joyful character that even if you didn't like him you will still remember him. A memorable character indeed.

Caterina Sforza vs George Washington - Obviously, Caterina wins this, and I don't think this one even needs an explanation. Washington was a terrible character, just completely bad at everything. A missed chance. He is still terrible in the DLC. Probably the worst antagonist of all time.

Niccolò di Bernardo dei Machiavelli vs Benjamin Franklin - Can't choose because their roles in their respective games were too short. There's literally nothing that makes me choose one over the other.

The love interest one is invalid and unfair to do, since we do not have one in AC3. Dat purity!

AC2 wins for me, what a surprise.

This!

I would choose Machiavelli though. I mean, Ben Franklin was in it for like 2 minutes at most, it's ridiculous actually. Since we are including the AC2 DLC's, I would definitely say Machiavelli. Though he didn't have a lot of screentime or dialogue, aside from his speech in Venice, he still gave you the idea that he was really important to the Order. He also led the Mercenaries in Florence and helped you during the Bonfire of the Vanities. The only thing Ben Franklin did was complain about losing his almanacs and talk to you about going to bed with older women. Seriously?

legacy_neworder
03-14-2013, 09:40 PM
the father: haytham. Haytham had a lot more to do, was even the playable character in the first hours.
the mother: ziio. Again, did a lot more.
the best friend: leonardo. He was great.
the mentor: achilles. I felt Achilles was more developped and played a bigger role.
main enemy: rodrigo borgia. Rodrigo was cooler.
political ally: lorenzo da medici. I remebered Lorenzo more then the other one.
crazy general: bortolomeo. was a fun supporting character
politicial ally and friend: catherina sforza. more memorable
intellectual: machiavelli. Idem ditto
love interest: christina by default. Not even an option.

AC3 had the better parents and mentor. But AC had the better supporting characters

itsamea-mario
03-14-2013, 11:23 PM
I dno, there's definitely logic there, but i still feel the need to disagree.
I mean most of the side characters in AC2 are assassins or templars, so they have that whole deeper story thing. The allies in AC2 just seem better to me, better personalities and stuff, they were there to help ezio, they actually cared for him, unlike in AC3 were most of the allies were mainly in it for themselves(bar Lafayette, because he was a bro, and maybe putnam).

As for the villains, i suppose AC2's were better in a classical sense, but for an AC game i will admit they were pretty bad, it seemed that only rodrigo had any great world view beyond himself, and even then it was still more about the power. In AC3 most of the templars were proper templars who genuinely thought they were doing the right thing. Maybe not hickey or church.

I'm torn on this, i think AC2's characters just left a better taste in my mouth. But maybe AC3's characters are somewhat more realistic.

BATISTABUS
03-15-2013, 04:47 AM
Actually, maybe I should put Ziio as AC3's love interest. As far as being an element in the story, it's certainly there, even if not for the "main" character.


I'm torn on this, i think AC2's characters just left a better taste in my mouth. But maybe AC3's characters are somewhat more realistic.
I get what you're saying. I like that analysis.


AC3 had the better parents and mentor. But AC had the better supporting characters
Welcome to the forum and thanks for the response!

I-Like-Pie45
03-15-2013, 04:49 AM
Oh, Ziio can be Connor's love interest as well.

Just in a "different" way. Or maybe not. :rolleyes::nonchalance::o

BATISTABUS
03-15-2013, 04:55 AM
Oh, Ziio can be Connor's love interest as well.

Just in a "different" way. Or maybe not. :rolleyes::nonchalance::o
Oop, I think I found Connor's love interest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?list=SPVknSjv5hAFLWqPF3PNi7hiJL-jytCaPl&v=4-ysGDEc3EU&feature=player_detailpage#t=32s

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 05:07 AM
But AC II had the better supporting characters
I greatly disagree.

for me, AC II`s only interesting characters who are not on this list were Antonio, Bartolomeo and Machiavelli..
I liked Stephan, La Fayette, Duncan little, Jamie Colley, Ellen, Warren and his wife, Edward Braddock, Godfrey and Terry, Doctor Lyle, Robert Faulkner, Nicholas Biddle and Father Timothy...

These may not be interesting or likeable characters for most people here for a reason or another, but I liked them a lot. they helped build a village, because in AC II, town upgrade only included aesthetic elements, here the Homestead gets upgraded in buildings and people.

The Homestead is a story of it`s own

I-Like-Pie45
03-15-2013, 05:14 AM
Freud will not be pleased by this at all.

hellomrdarcy
03-15-2013, 11:37 AM
I think AC3 had so so sooo much better side characters than AC2 in almost every aspect
but that's not of a big surprise, games should develop further and not backwards. =)

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 11:42 AM
I think AC3 had so so sooo much better side characters than AC2 in almost every aspect

Agreed

dxsxhxcx
03-15-2013, 12:24 PM
IMO only Connor's parents were more interesting than Ezio's parents, the other side characters from AC2 were much more interesting than the ones from AC3, Faulkner was also cool but Rosa was great, so I would say between these two we have a tie...

Assassin_M
03-15-2013, 12:25 PM
so I would say between these two we have a tie...
Rosa and Faulkner ? 0_o

dxsxhxcx
03-15-2013, 12:27 PM
Rosa and Faulkner ? 0_o

yes, they're in the same category.. :p