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View Full Version : Inconsistencies, inconsistencies everywhere!



itsamea-mario
03-09-2013, 02:59 PM
Remember AC1? Remember those emails? remember reading about how 96% of Africa had been wiped out by plague? remember the problems Mexico was having due to American immigrants? Remember how this stuff was reflected in later games, such as AC3? oh wait.

This mainly refers to AC3, the one where we actually got to go out into the world. The world that looks pretty much identical to ours, even when there was all this information telling us that the AC universe is in fact quite different to our, as far as the modern day is concerned. We see a New york that looks pretty much identical, when we know that the US must be having serious problems. We hear about how William is going to Cairo to retrieve a power source from a museum. it's good to see that they have such dedication to education considering how 96% of the continent died in 3 months and no doubt the whole place is in a state of anarchy.
There were some things that made it past AC1, such as the Flouride enhancement business, but it kind of shows a lack of effort when ubi fail to follow through on the universe they tried to build.

These are the emials, try and see how many things within were mentioned after AC1. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Warren_Vidic%27s_email

Assassin_M
03-09-2013, 03:02 PM
Remember AC1? Remember those emails? remember reading about how 96% of Africa had been wiped out by plague? remember the problems Mexico was having due to American immigrants? Remember how this stuff was reflected in later games, such as AC3? oh wait.

This mainly refers to AC3, the one where we actually got to go out into the world. The world that looks pretty much identical to ours, even when there was all this information telling us that the AC universe is in fact quite different to our, as far as the modern day is concerned. We see a New york that looks pretty much identical, when we know that the US must be having serious problems. We hear about how William is going to Cairo to retrieve a power source from a museum. it's good to see that they have such dedication to education considering how 96% of the continent died in 3 months and no doubt the whole place is in a state of anarchy.

There were some things that made it past AC1, such as the Flouride enhancement business, but it kind of shows a lack of effort when ubi fail to follow through on the universe they tried to build.

These are the emials, try and see how many things within were mentioned after AC1. http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Warren_Vidic%27s_email
I can`t see how problems with Mexico could affect what New York looks like, Also...how would the death of 96% of a population cause anarchy to the 4% remaining ?

TheHumanTowel
03-09-2013, 03:08 PM
The William thing is the biggest inconsistency there but it's not unexplainable. It's not so much inconsistencies as Ubi just ignoring that part of their lore. Not excusing them they should have made more reference to it but they haven't broken their canon yet. Here's hoping it comes back.

itsamea-mario
03-09-2013, 03:09 PM
I can`t see how problems with Mexico could affect what New York looks like, Also...how would the death of 96% of a population cause anarchy to the 4% remaining ?

it's more that they didn't even mention this stuff. These are pretty big things, and they aren't referenced at all, The US being in a state where people need to flee? that's a big thing. 96% of a continent dead? that's a big thing. These are the kind of things that you can't just put into a universe and then never mention again.

Did you actually read the emails? here's the africa one. "Nearly 6 years later, little progress has been made in dealing with the repercussions of what history books now refer to as 'The Second Plague'. With nearly 96% of its population decimated over a 3-month period, the continent of Africa is now virtually uninhabited. Plans to divide up the continent have met with strong resistance and claims of neo-colonialism. One protester had this to say: 'Whether we are a hundred or a hundred million - this is still our home and no one has the right to take it from us.'"

Assassin_M
03-09-2013, 03:12 PM
it's more that they didn't even mention this stuff. These are pretty big things, and they aren't referenced at all, The US being in a state where people need to flee? that's a big thing. 96% of a continent dead? that's a big thing. These are the kind of things that you can't just put into a universe and then never mention again.

Did you actually read the emails? here's the africa one. "Nearly 6 years later, little progress has been made in dealing with the repercussions of what history books now refer to as 'The Second Plague'. With nearly 96% of its population decimated over a 3-month period, the continent of Africa is now virtually uninhabited. Plans to divide up the continent have met with strong resistance and claims of neo-colonialism. One protester had this to say: 'Whether we are a hundred or a hundred million - this is still our home and no one has the right to take it from us.'"
Yeah I read the emails and I guess I agree that it could`v been mentioned again, but that`s the only thing close to inconsistency....The lack of mention

MasterSimaYi
03-09-2013, 03:15 PM
it's not so much inconsistencies as ubi just ignoring that part of their lore. Not excusing them they should have made more reference to it but they haven't broken their canon yet.

stop copying me!!!!!!!

itsamea-mario
03-09-2013, 03:18 PM
I broke my cannon, saw jade raymond whilst i was wearing skinny jeans.

SixKeys
03-09-2013, 03:32 PM
Good points, Mario. The Africa thing is still understandable as we never actually visit or see it in AC3, but considering Desmond and his team are in America, they seem not to be inconvenienced or worried in the slightest that citizens are apparently fleeing their country in droves.

Seems like these were just seeds that were planted for the modern day story when it was still being planned as a trilogy. Either Ubi completely forgot about them or have decided to ignore their existence.

itsamea-mario
03-09-2013, 03:36 PM
Good points, Mario. The Africa thing is still understandable as we never actually visit or see it in AC3, but considering Desmond and his team are in America, they seem not to be inconvenienced or worried in the slightest that citizens are apparently fleeing their country in droves.

Seems like these were just seeds that were planted for the modern day story when it was still being planned as a trilogy. Either Ubi completely forgot about them or have decided to ignore their existence.

In the scene which showed the world being saved, Africa was shown to have it's lights on. Though that is a weak point since 4% is like 41 million, and those lights were in the northern regions, which would like be the least hit. but still.


And the launch was was being built up to be a big thing. It was kind of referenced in AC3 as one of the possible solutions, but mehhhhhh.

TheHumanTowel
03-09-2013, 04:17 PM
stop copying me!!!!!!!
I'm quite sure I have no idea what you're insinuating >_>

ArabianFrost
03-09-2013, 06:03 PM
Ubisoft will just somehow blame it on the animus even if it doesn't make sense. Classic animus being all inconsistent and ****.

MasterSimaYi
03-09-2013, 06:28 PM
Ubisoft will just somehow blame it on the animus even if it doesn't make sense. Classic animus being all inconsistent and ****.

Sounds legit.

itsamea-mario
03-09-2013, 06:30 PM
It's all true, our world is the same as the AC one, the templars have been covering all this up, 96% of africa died in 2006, The US is in a state of turmoil, DON'T BELIEVE THE LIES!

ArabianFrost
03-09-2013, 06:32 PM
It's all true, our world is the same as the AC one, the templars have been covering all this up, 96% of africa died in 2006, The US is in a state of turmoil, DON'T BELIEVE THE LIES!

Thanks Obama.... oh wait.

Mr_Shade
03-09-2013, 06:42 PM
It's all true, our world is the same as the AC one, the templars have been covering all this up, 96% of africa died in 2006, The US is in a state of turmoil, DON'T BELIEVE THE LIES!
You have a parcel.. it may tick, but don't worry.... it's just a AC watch ;)


You must be silenced!!!!

ArabianFrost
03-09-2013, 06:45 PM
You have a parcel.. it may tick, but don't worry.... it's just a AC watch ;)


You must be silenced!!!!

You people suck at hiding your trails.

AjinkyaParuleka
03-09-2013, 06:47 PM
You have a parcel.. it may tick, but don't worry.... it's just a AC watch ;)


You must be silenced!!!!
Hey hey...nothing to do with the topic...but..the grand master of Ubisoft,the real life name for Templar is Yves Guilmot?(pun intended)I wonder if the fanbase are the Assassin.

xx-pyro
03-09-2013, 06:56 PM
To quote an earlier post about the launch being built up to be important- yeah it was. The problem was what were they going to launch? A spaceshuttle full of nothing? Desmond et al had the Apple of Eden that they wanted to launch, that's why it didn't happen. Or so my logic leads me to believe anyways.

MasterSimaYi
03-09-2013, 07:01 PM
Hey hey...nothing to do with the topic...but..the grand master of Ubisoft,the real life name for Templar is Yves Guilmot?(pun intended)I wonder if the fanbase are the Assassin.

Yes because the fanbase are the good guys and the Assassins are the good guys!!!!

Assasseffect
03-09-2013, 08:21 PM
And the launch was was being built up to be a big thing. It was kind of referenced in AC3 as one of the possible solutions, but mehhhhhh.
I rather liked the resolution to the launch. Abstergo can't get the apple if it's holder keeps kicking their *** (as they have been for generations), and they have appeared to be making the Templars less and less relevant in replacement of the First Civilization, thought AC4 may consist of the Templars working towards the same First Civ things as Desmond was in AC3


Yes because the fanbase are the good guys and the Assassins are the good guys!!!!
Actually, Assassins and Templars are both bad guys, as AC3 showed quite well.

itsamea-mario
03-09-2013, 08:29 PM
Another thing. AC1, it's clearly stated that Abstergo are a pharmaceutical company. Meaning that that is their public face, obviously they do other things.
Then Abstergo entertainment? How many drug companies do you know that release games consoles with their company name?

Although it is kinda mentioned in ACR that abstergo do put their name to lots of things.
And i just now realised, in ACR doesn't desmond say how his mother told him abstergo were templars? i'm playing AC1 right now, he doesn't know they're templars.

MasterSimaYi
03-09-2013, 08:42 PM
Actually, Assassins and Templars are both bad guys, as AC3 showed quite well.

I was being sarcastic. :o

SaintPerkele
03-09-2013, 09:18 PM
Hey hey...nothing to do with the topic...but..the grand master of Ubisoft,the real life name for Templar is Yves Guilmot?(pun intended)I wonder if the fanbase are the Assassin.
So you mean the people who buy every single of their products no matter how the quality is are the ones trying to fight them? :rolleyes:

ArabianFrost
03-09-2013, 09:28 PM
I rather liked the resolution to the launch. Abstergo can't get the apple if it's holder keeps kicking their *** (as they have been for generations), and they have appeared to be making the Templars less and less relevant in replacement of the First Civilization, thought AC4 may consist of the Templars working towards the same First Civ things as Desmond was in AC3


Actually, Assassins and Templars are both bad guys, as AC3 showed quite well.

Man, after playing AC3 you still use the word "bad". If AC3 showed anything it's that assassins and templars represent very grey opinions, not "bad", not "good", but opinions which have both positive and negative implications to them. At the end, they both aim for the same goal but have different means to that goal.

ACfan443
03-09-2013, 10:00 PM
AC3's modern day story would have been so much more interesting if all this was shown. They obviously stopped caring about it, and weren't bothered to develop the plot points from previous games. I wonder if the modern day portion of AC:BF will reflect what's mentioned in the emails...

LightRey
03-09-2013, 10:58 PM
Eh, mario. The mails actually show quite clearly that Africa is not at all in a state of anarchy. They seem quite organized in fact, being able to give public statements about wanting to keep their lands and such.

SixKeys
03-09-2013, 11:18 PM
Isn't the creative director of AC4 the guy whose job it used to be to make sure everything within the AC universe was consistent? Can't wait to see how all this stuff will be explained in AC4, then. :rolleyes: ;)

MasterSimaYi
03-09-2013, 11:31 PM
Isn't the creative director of AC4 the guy whose job it used to be to make sure everything within the AC universe was consistent? Can't wait to see how all this stuff will be explained in AC4, then. :rolleyes: ;)

Jean Guesdon is the Transmedia director. As far as I know, Assassin's Creed doesn't have its own Leland Chee.

SixKeys
03-09-2013, 11:35 PM
Jean Guesdon is the Transmedia director. As far as I know, Assassin's Creed doesn't have its own Leland Chee.

So what does a transmedia director do?

MasterSimaYi
03-09-2013, 11:38 PM
So what does a transmedia director do?

...Direct and manage transmedia and brand content... and stuff... Not keep track off every piece of canon that enters the universe, like I mentioned in my example of Leland Chee.

RzaRecta357
03-09-2013, 11:41 PM
You could say the Desmonds mother mentioning it to him thing was something he just considered so far out there and crackpot. Did he even know where he was until Viddic pretty much laid it out for him?

itsamea-mario
03-09-2013, 11:44 PM
Eh, mario. The mails actually show quite clearly that Africa is not at all in a state of anarchy. They seem quite organized in fact, being able to give public statements about wanting to keep their lands and such.

What one protestor said is hardly a public statement. But you're right it never mentions any chaos. Nor the lack of chaos. I just assumed a plague that almost wipes out the entire population in 3 months would be catastrophic, and i imagine would encourage some kind of quarantine. it wold certainly disrupt trade and probably obliterate any chance of tourists. I doubt they're doing well.
However i'm glad you said this, it made go and read the rest of the emails and i noticed another.

"Hurricane Season Ends... But not in the way you think: Increasingly erratic weather patterns have caused the Global Weather Association to abolish the term 'Hurricane Season'. Once confined to the months of June through November, hurricane duration, frequency, strength, and location have increased to the point where most coastal cities must now live in constant fear of these devastating storms. "

Now this one should be mentioned, since new york is a coastal city, not saying there should have been a hurricane occurring during that mission. But it should at least be mentioned, or at least the state of that area made evident.

That's my problem with all these things, that no mention or reference is made, they planted seeds for a universe but lacked the commitment or effort to follow through. It would have been really cool, and almost an homage to those who read those emails if this stuff was a visible part of the world we saw in AC3. IMO ofcourse.

itsamea-mario
03-09-2013, 11:46 PM
You could say the Desmonds mother mentioning it to him thing was something he just considered so far out there and crackpot. Did he even know where he was until Viddic pretty much laid it out for him?

He knew he was being held by abstergo, what in AC1 he believes to be a purely legit pharmaceutical company. Though the fact they kidnapped him probably puts the "legit" bit to question in his mind.

RzaRecta357
03-09-2013, 11:50 PM
He knew he was being held by abstergo, what in AC1 he believes to be a purely legit pharmaceutical company. Though the fact they kidnapped him probably puts the "legit" bit to question in his mind.

Haha alright. It's the one I've played the most as it's still my fav but it's been a few years since I've played it.

Half this stuff was probably just forgotten about when Patrice left or something. Did we ever get an official reason for why he left? He probably had a clear set thing in mind for Desmond or something and they wouldn't let him do it :P. Sure seemed that way during AC2 anyway.

itsamea-mario
03-10-2013, 12:02 AM
Haha alright. It's the one I've played the most as it's still my fav but it's been a few years since I've played it.

Half this stuff was probably just forgotten about when Patrice left or something. Did we ever get an official reason for why he left? He probably had a clear set thing in mind for Desmond or something and they wouldn't let him do it :P. Sure seemed that way during AC2 anyway.

I think he left because he didn't like the way the series was being handled. Or he didn't like the way ubi did things, or something like that.

I know i'm being picky, but they would have had so much more respect from me if they'd continued with the universe it seems they had planned since AC1, they may still do, like people before said, these aren't so much inconsistencies as just things that haven't been mentioned for the most part at least.

Q1RSTU
03-10-2013, 12:38 AM
What bothers me the most is that they completely ignored AC:B's "The Truth". But I agree.

Assasseffect
03-10-2013, 01:04 AM
He knew he was being held by abstergo, what in AC1 he believes to be a purely legit pharmaceutical company. Though the fact they kidnapped him probably puts the "legit" bit to question in his mind.

Desmond knew Abstergo to be a Templar company all his life. One of the flashback stories in AC: R is Desmond getting worried when he noticed one of his jars of Ibuprofen had the Abstergo logo on it.

itsamea-mario
03-10-2013, 01:17 AM
Desmond knew Abstergo to be a Templar company all his life. One of the flashback stories in AC: R is Desmond getting worried when he noticed one of his jars of Ibuprofen had the Abstergo logo on it.

So ACR tells us. But in AC1 he has no idea until Lucy tells him.

SaintPerkele
03-10-2013, 01:35 AM
The only thing in the AC lore for which I'm really craving an explanation though is the Golem and Frater V.O.V/Consus (if he is indeed him?). I doubt that these will get answered in the main game though - maybe Rising Phoenix is the spin-off we Project Legacy fans deserve?

I said it once and I'll say it again: Ubi should hire the PL story/dialogue-writers for the main games.

LoyalACFan
03-10-2013, 02:29 AM
Honestly, if you think they had a master plan for the modern stuff past AC2... you're deluding yourself. It's not worth getting invested in at this point, because it'll all inevitably change course again as the franchise retcons more and more of its continuity. Personally, I'm glad they're downplaying the modern stuff in AC4. Focus on the historical stuff that they can do well.

joey-4321_web
03-10-2013, 02:43 AM
Honestly, if you think they had a master plan for the modern stuff past AC2... you're deluding yourself. It's not worth getting invested in at this point, because it'll all inevitably change course again as the franchise retcons more and more of its continuity. Personally, I'm glad they're downplaying the modern stuff in AC4. Focus on the historical stuff that they can do well.

im heartbroken they're downgrading the modern stuff in AC4. :(

Perk89
03-10-2013, 03:15 AM
I was pretty sure that that stuff simply wasn't a part of the AC universe anymore.

You should probably just treat AC1 like one of the AC books. The big plot points count, but everything else is there just for fun.

Abeonis
03-10-2013, 03:27 AM
I'm failing to see how something only being mentioned once makes it an inconsistency... if anything, the fact that it is only mentioned once means there is nothing for it to be inconsistent with.

itsamea-mario
03-10-2013, 03:17 PM
I'm failing to see how something only being mentioned once makes it an inconsistency... if anything, the fact that it is only mentioned once means there is nothing for it to be inconsistent with.

I realise it was probably the incorrect term. but besides my poor wording, my point still stands.

AdrianJacek
03-10-2013, 10:05 PM
Brazil DOES look like a s*ithole.

Abeonis
03-11-2013, 12:22 AM
Brazil DOES look like a s*ithole.

Yes, because the entirety of Brazil can fit into a single wrestling stadium and train station...

Assassin_M
03-11-2013, 12:25 AM
Brazil DOES look like a s*ithole.
You`re the smartest person I met here... /sarcasm

Megas_Doux
03-11-2013, 12:33 AM
Brazil DOES look like a s*ithole.


Well, I kinda like this building...

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2421/3975439050_a3d00891db_b.jpg

And SEVERAL others of its same time....

LoyalACFan
03-11-2013, 05:43 AM
im heartbroken they're downgrading the modern stuff in AC4. :(

Nah. There was a time when I would have been heartbroken myself, but the fact that we have to accept is that Ubi has done a godawful job of handling the modern stuff. Half of the "burning questions" they've introduced have been completely abandoned over the course of the series' run. "The sun... YOUR son..." Remember that? ACB rifts? Yeah. And now Ubi is saying "Desmond's saga concluded in AC3." Not only have they NOT explained it, but they've also effectively eliminated any chance that it ever WILL be explained. So I'm going to stop investing my interest in the modern stuff, because it's obviously a crap-shoot as to whether or not they'll follow up on their own plot devices.

diamonshop
03-11-2013, 06:14 AM
I'm really disappointed with how all of the modern day stuff has been neglected, because it was part of what made the original AC so fascinating to me. I really want all of the Project Legacy stuff to be explained, as well as an answer as to whether or not Altair's Chronicles is considered canon.

Another little inconsistency they made is that in the first game, an Email says: "Nation Mourns the Loss of Final Film Studio: History was made today with the closing of the country's last movie studio. The rising prominence of video games coupled with rampant piracy are considered to be the leading causes of its demise."
But in the AC3 Multiplayer, the video unlocked from the latest community event is a trailer for a theatrical film.

Farlander1991
03-11-2013, 06:59 AM
Adha and the Chalice are both mentioned in AC1. So Altair's Chronicles should be canon.

Also Adha's mentioned in Altair's codex in AC2.

LightRey
03-11-2013, 08:20 AM
Adha and the Chalice are both mentioned in AC1. So Altair's Chronicles should be canon.

Also Adha's mentioned in Altair's codex in AC2.
Partly at least. The novels and other types of "secondary" sources should be considered canon in the parts that do not contradict the main games (which, sadly, they often do). However, that arguably gives them about the same status as fan fiction.

MasterSimaYi
03-11-2013, 08:19 PM
Every entry into the series is canon as long as its entire story or existence does not contradict previously established facts. This is not the case for Alta´r's Chronicles - it is canon.


Partly at least. The novels and other types of "secondary" sources should be considered canon in the parts that do not contradict the main games (which, sadly, they often do). However, that arguably gives them about the same status as fan fiction.

The Encyclopedia does not seem to handle these 'tiers' of canon, as it favors events from The Secret Crusade over those from the Revelations game. Canon tiers may apply to other series, but there is nothing to indicate that they do for Assassin's Creed. Assassin's Creed: Alta´r's Chronicles does not contradict any other medium.

Though I fail to see how a continuity issue gives a game or novel the same status as a story completely created by fans that is not released by Ubisoft. Would continuity errors between games make them classify as fan fiction too?

twenty_glyphs
03-11-2013, 10:25 PM
Honestly, if you think they had a master plan for the modern stuff past AC2... you're deluding yourself. It's not worth getting invested in at this point, because it'll all inevitably change course again as the franchise retcons more and more of its continuity. Personally, I'm glad they're downplaying the modern stuff in AC4. Focus on the historical stuff that they can do well.

^ This, unfortunately. Consider me one of the deluded who bought into the universe and thought they had a master plan after Brotherhood and Project Legacy. Two years later, and my huge interest has done a 180 to where I don't consider it worth getting invested in the meta-story at all because it feels pointless if things are going to be retconned or ignored. They sure were good at raising lots of interesting questions and making it seem like there was a master plan for where Desmond's "trilogy" was going. They took all that potential into AC3 and then just let it fizzle out.

They ignored interesting plot points like the AC1 emails, what the heck Project Legacy was all about, and Subject 16's big "The sun... your son" moment from Brotherhood. They trivialized Desmond going through all that work to get Ezio's Apple by using it only as a simple key to an area that still needed yet another key to open. They wasted the opportunity provided by getting to meet Subject 16 and the fact that he survived in some form, thus losing all sense of his character's intrigue. They botched the handling of Lucy's death and potential betrayal that never had a chance to happen. They killed off Vidic, an actually interesting and recognizable antagonist for the series, in a crappy B-movie moment.

You can rationalize the fact that nothing may have directly contradicted the emails from AC1 all you want. But at the end of the day, if the rest of the franchise is going to ignore those and other cool plot elements that it presents, what is the point? It's almost worse than a contradiction, because the series is just ignoring an interesting setup that it presented itself. How can they expect people to remain interested and engaged if they are just going to drop plot points that they introduce as being important? Why would anyone get invested or care about trying to keep track of the story if it's just going to wander off in another new direction? I'd rather them at least have the creativity and guts to retcon something in an interesting way rather than see them ignore interesting plot setups altogether.

MasterSimaYi
03-11-2013, 11:42 PM
Honestly, if you think they had a master plan for the modern stuff past AC2... you're deluding yourself. It's not worth getting invested in at this point, because it'll all inevitably change course again as the franchise retcons more and more of its continuity. Personally, I'm glad they're downplaying the modern stuff in AC4. Focus on the historical stuff that they can do well.

Not that I want to show it off or show that I am particularly proud of it (by now there are a lot more things going through my mind about this), but I made a blog on the AC3 ending some time ago, and it turned me from being quite disappointed in the ending to actually liking it. It's done so for several others too. I think you should give it a read, though there are quite a few things missing and probably wrong that I have yet to add and change.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Master_Sima_Yi/The_modern_day_story

monster_rambo
03-12-2013, 12:02 AM
Not that I want to show it off or show that I am particularly proud of it (by now there are a lot more things going through my mind about this), but I made a blog on the AC3 ending some time ago, and it turned me from being quite disappointed in the ending to actually liking it. It's done so for several others too. I think you should give it a read, though there are quite a few things missing and probably wrong that I have yet to add and change.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Master_Sima_Yi/The_modern_day_story

I am still unhappy with the way they handled Lucy's ending. Especially when something this important is released on DLC makes me think that they made up the story on the spot. And why would Clay help Desmond if he knows Juno will end his life and enslave humanity? And what does Eve have to do with Juno (another name for Juno?)? There are so many different ways to interpret this but really, no matter how you look at it, the execution in trying to explain these chain of events were flawed so this is why so many people hate it.

^And shouldn't Clay mention something like this to Desmond in ACR when Desmond felt guilty about killing Lucy? Is all too confusing.

MasterSimaYi
03-12-2013, 12:21 AM
Especially when something this important is released on DLC

It wasn't 'released on DLC', it was confirmed via DLC. Lucy being a Templar was already established in ACB but in true AC fashion, they left it very vague and up to the player's interpretation.


And why would Clay help Desmond if he knows Juno will end his life and enslave humanity? And what does Eve have to do with Juno (another name for Juno?)?

^And shouldn't Clay mention something like this to Desmond in ACR when Desmond felt guilty about killing Lucy? Is all too confusing.

Evidently you didn't read what I said in my blog well enough...

monster_rambo
03-12-2013, 12:27 AM
Evidently you didn't read what I said in my blog well enough...

Nope, I read the entire blog, and it is all subject to your own interpretation and it does not make it true. I am not attacking anything right here. They didn't establish anything in ACB, we thought Clay could be talking about either Juno or Lucy. Okay, I'm fine with that. When Desmond met with Clay in ACR, we expected an answer but Clay didn't mention anything about Lucy which should have been because they promised AC REVELATIONS will answer all of our questions. We only got our CONFIRMATION via something that was released on DLC. Which was not right because it was an important part of the story. And as a general rule, if an ending leaves a sour taste in my mouth the first time, any interpretation or any recouncilation will only be an attempt to make a delusion that something bad is actually good.

MasterSimaYi
03-12-2013, 12:42 AM
Nope, I read the entire blog, and it is all subject to your own interpretation and it does not make it true.

You were asking me a question, my answer is in my blog. As I had already stated in my initial blog, I am likely wrong on several things.


They didn't establish anything in ACB, we thought Clay could be talking about either Juno or Lucy.

The writers establishing something and the fans not knowing for certain are two different things. You are switching the subject to Subject 16's dialogue now, not to Lucy being a Templar.


When Desmond met with Clay in ACR, we expected an answer but Clay didn't mention anything about Lucy which should have been because they promised AC REVELATIONS will answer all of our questions.

This is entirely not the point of my blog or why I posted it here... I posted it here in regards to Ubisoft 'changing' their modern day story as they go along, not so we can start another discussion about Clay and Lucy. This is just complaining that we've all heard before and all know well enough. It always was naive to expect they would answer all questions, and this is hardly do-able from a writing perspective.


We only got our CONFIRMATION via something that was released on DLC. Which was not right because it was an important part of the story.

Yes, indeed.


And as a general rule, if an ending leaves a sour taste in my mouth the first time, any interpretation or any recouncilation will only be an attempt to make a delusion that something bad is actually good.

Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

D.I.D.
03-12-2013, 03:30 AM
Not that I want to show it off or show that I am particularly proud of it (by now there are a lot more things going through my mind about this), but I made a blog on the AC3 ending some time ago, and it turned me from being quite disappointed in the ending to actually liking it. It's done so for several others too. I think you should give it a read, though there are quite a few things missing and probably wrong that I have yet to add and change.

http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/User_blog:Master_Sima_Yi/The_modern_day_story

This is very well constructed and I'd like to believe it, but I think you're giving them too much credit.

I think they've reached a point in the tangle where McDevitt and May are going to have to find a way to make it all make sense in ACIV, and no doubt it will be something along the lines of your explanation because it will have to satisfy all of those big moments in the past, but I really don't think they had it solidly fixed by the end of AC3. I really think their big reveal was the issue of the two choices, and that's all there was to it this time.

This is not a subtle story or presentation, and they could easily had threaded some crackly quick cuts of all these previous moments in between the things Juno was saying. They could have had some gut-wrenching conclusion, where even though Desmond finally understands how he's been played, he still has to take the "save the world" option. That would have had some power.

I find it impossible to believe that the team would make an ending to the trilogy which involves this much joining of dots, particularly when it could only be traced by people who had played and remembered every detail of every main game including the clumsy ACR DLC.

monster_rambo
03-12-2013, 05:04 AM
This is very well constructed and I'd like to believe it, but I think you're giving them too much credit.

I think they've reached a point in the tangle where McDevitt and May are going to have to find a way to make it all make sense in ACIV, and no doubt it will be something along the lines of your explanation because it will have to satisfy all of those big moments in the past, but I really don't think they had it solidly fixed by the end of AC3. I really think their big reveal was the issue of the two choices, and that's all there was to it this time.

This is not a subtle story or presentation, and they could easily had threaded some crackly quick cuts of all these previous moments in between the things Juno was saying. They could have had some gut-wrenching conclusion, where even though Desmond finally understands how he's been played, he still has to take the "save the world" option. That would have had some power.

I find it impossible to believe that the team would make an ending to the trilogy which involves this much joining of dots, particularly when it could only be traced by people who had played and remembered every detail of every main game including the clumsy ACR DLC.

I agree. If it honestly takes some convincing for yourself to actually like the ending, then that means is not a really good ending. It just means you don't want to accept that is a bad ending. Besides, regardless of what is said, this ending still doesn't even compare to the shock and awe that fans crave for from ACII and ACB. Whatever the interpretation is and since the messages conveyed by Juno and 16 is so vague, anyone can piece together a workable theory, so arguing is pointless. All I know, is that they failed in their delivery and could have done so much better but instead there is an imbalance in the storytelling by forcing you spend 5 hours with Haythem (which wouldn't be so bad if they had spend more time with Desmond)

diamonshop
03-12-2013, 08:27 AM
Master Sima Yi, your blog post was very well written, and had several good points! I respect that you can appreciate the ending, but I don't think that I will ever enjoy it: I was just expecting a lot more emotion, a lot more interaction between Desmond and the crew, and a lot more questions to be answered. Honestly, the one thing they answered that was bugging me was why there were PoE on the Moon and on Mars, and they provided a viable explanation for it.

However, I'm still not sold on the Altiar's Chronicles canon status. I do like the story (although some aspects of it are uncomfortably similar to AC1), but none of it is referenced in the Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia (although, to be honest, the Encyclopedia is missing a lot of stuff). Besides this, Altair uses a grappling hook, smoke bombs, actual bombs, and a crossbow in this game. Also, he is shown to be bald when he disguises himself as a priest, but he has hair in ACR. The last argument wasn't too good since he could've just let his hair grow back out, but it simply feels odd to me.

LightRey
03-12-2013, 01:31 PM
Every entry into the series is canon as long as its entire story or existence does not contradict previously established facts. This is not the case for Alta´r's Chronicles - it is canon.



The Encyclopedia does not seem to handle these 'tiers' of canon, as it favors events from The Secret Crusade over those from the Revelations game. Canon tiers may apply to other series, but there is nothing to indicate that they do for Assassin's Creed. Assassin's Creed: Alta´r's Chronicles does not contradict any other medium.

Though I fail to see how a continuity issue gives a game or novel the same status as a story completely created by fans that is not released by Ubisoft. Would continuity errors between games make them classify as fan fiction too?
No, continuity errors between games are what I would call a breakdown of canon. It doesn't reduce them to fan-fiction, it reduces them to nonsense.

twenty_glyphs
03-12-2013, 04:31 PM
I'm sorry MasterSimaYi, but your blog doesn't make any sense of the story for me. It relies on interpreting Subject 16's Eden to mean Turin, NY, which makes no sense, and on mistakenly referring to Juno as Eve. If that really was the intention of the writers, it's terribly unsatisfying to explain a mysterious clue by revealing it to be something we could have never known. All clues presented by the series point to Eden being in Africa, and have specifically shown Eve herself. No one could correctly guess that when Subject 16 told Desmond to find Eve in Eden, that he really meant Juno in Turin, NY. A good answer to a mystery makes you say "I should have seen that coming!" even if you couldn't. These answers make me go, "I couldn't have ever seen it coming because the clues were lies or just flat wrong." Why bother trying to decipher clues if they're all red herrings instead of real clues?

If they really want to explain away Subject 16's ramblings as just the ramblings of a madman, then his character loses all sense of importance. He was interesting because he went crazy, but claimed to have discovered the truth and was showing us evidence that backed up his claims. I was interested in finding out what the whole truth he discovered was, and what it meant for Desmond. He was so fixated on helping him that I felt it must be important. And yet in the end, his "help" just led Desmond to his death and a seemingly meaningless sacrifice. And if on top of that, many of his tantalizing clues were just his psychotic ramblings, he becomes a completely useless character.


It wasn't 'released on DLC', it was confirmed via DLC. Lucy being a Templar was already established in ACB but in true AC fashion, they left it very vague and up to the player's interpretation.

Lucy was not established as a Templar in ACB in any way. Only in hindsight can you say that. If that was true at the time, there would have been very little debate over her true loyalties after that game, and yet the community was pretty evenly split or very undecided. They obviously intentionally left that a mystery after Brotherhood because they wanted people asking about the truth and who were hooked on the story enough to come back for the next story installment. When people came back expecting answers from a game subtitled "Revelations", there were none. It was only 3.5 months after Revelations' release that The Lost Archive came out with no advertising whatsoever to sort of vaguely show that Lucy defected to the Templars without using her voice actor or face in any way. Not exactly compelling storytelling. Even The Lost Archive introduced more story details that don't make sense, like Vidic only finding out about Ezio because of Subject 16, when their own The Chain comic indicates the Templars probably knew about him and Minerva's message at least 10 years earlier.

Saying the writers intentionally left things vague is just a cop-out and excuse for laziness. There are clever ways of being vague and leaving things up to us to connect some dots of the story, but Assassin's Creed does none of that. What they've done is throw tantalizing clues and scenarios that don't make sense but seem like they have some deeper meaning against the wall, and then ignored almost every one of them in future installments. If everyone comes up with wildly divergent theories for their interpretations of the clues of the series, you know the writers didn't present a focused story. An example of doing vagueness the right way would have been AC3 giving us little clues and tidbits that shed light on what the glyphs meant all along. It would have been fun to be given enough clues to decipher the true message of the symbols behind the glyphs on our own. And yet those have been completely ignored since Brotherhood. Patrice once said in an interview for AC2 that he wanted to tell us what those all meant someday, but he may have been the only person who can tell us. And now he's gone.

infamous_ezio
03-12-2013, 05:14 PM
I have given up completely on trying to figure out this ridiculous over convoluted plot..

One thing to bugs me the most though is what they did to 16, apparently it was so important for him to tell desmond this big truth, and guide him just as TWCB wanted. But it was so underwhelming..

Why the hell don't we get on esco's and loomers case for a podcast, surely now that AC3 is done and dusted they could shed some light on this..

pacmanate
03-12-2013, 05:19 PM
I have given up completely on trying to figure out this ridiculous over convoluted plot..

One thing to bugs me the most though is what they did to 16, apparently it was so important for him to tell desmond this big truth, and guide him just as TWCB wanted. But it was so underwhelming..

Why the hell don't we get on esco's and loomers case for a podcast, surely now that AC3 is done and dusted they could shed some light on this..


I agree, no one can be right, only have their own theories. Its a shame it has come to that.

infamous_ezio
03-12-2013, 05:22 PM
It really is a shame... so much potential, wasted!

On that note.. for those of you who have seen the most recent picture from initiates:

How the hell did abstergo access the temple? they must of had an apple..

MasterSimaYi
03-12-2013, 06:37 PM
I think they've reached a point in the tangle where McDevitt and May are going to have to find a way to make it all make sense in ACIV,

Think that's going to be hard, with the premise they are going for in the modern day story of AC3.


This is not a subtle story or presentation, and they could easily had threaded some crackly quick cuts of all these previous moments in between the things Juno was saying. They could have had some gut-wrenching conclusion, where even though Desmond finally understands how he's been played, he still has to take the "save the world" option. That would have had some power.

I wholeheartedly agree.


I was just expecting a lot more emotion, a lot more interaction between Desmond and the crew, and a lot more questions to be answered.

Yep. Desmond just telling William, Shaun and Rebecca to go without any intimate moment wasn't very satisfying to us players. If this was to be our final moments with these characters - or rather, our final moments with them as Desmond? - I want them to be special and to be engraved into my mind.


However, I'm still not sold on the Altiar's Chronicles canon status. I do like the story (although some aspects of it are uncomfortably similar to AC1), but none of it is referenced in the Assassin's Creed Encyclopedia (although, to be honest, the Encyclopedia is missing a lot of stuff).

The Damascus entry in the first edition of the Encyclopedia mentions Alaat, one of Alta´r's assassination targets in ACAC.


It relies on interpreting Subject 16's Eden to mean Turin, NY, which makes no sense,

How does this not make sense?


If that really was the intention of the writers, it's terribly unsatisfying to explain a mysterious clue by revealing it to be something we could have never known.

I agree.


All clues presented by the series point to Eden being in Africa,

What are these clues? 'Kilimanjaro', which people only assume, being in the background?


No one could correctly guess that when Subject 16 told Desmond to find Eve in Eden, that he really meant Juno in Turin, NY.

No, because all that people could think of is finding Eve in Eden.


These answers make me go, "I couldn't have ever seen it coming because the clues were lies or just flat wrong." Why bother trying to decipher clues if they're all red herrings instead of real clues?

Because it can bring myself, if anyone, some closure.


If they really want to explain away Subject 16's ramblings as just the ramblings of a madman, then his character loses all sense of importance. He was interesting because he went crazy, but claimed to have discovered the truth and was showing us evidence that backed up his claims. I was interested in finding out what the whole truth he discovered was, and what it meant for Desmond. He was so fixated on helping him that I felt it must be important. And yet in the end, his "help" just led Desmond to his death and a seemingly meaningless sacrifice. And if on top of that, many of his tantalizing clues were just his psychotic ramblings, he becomes a completely useless character.

Why would he become useless? To me, t makes his character more interesting, instead of being a good guy who is hell-bent on helping a person he does not even know or like.


Lucy was not established as a Templar in ACB in any way. Only in hindsight can you say that. If that was true at the time, there would have been very little debate over her true loyalties after that game, and yet the community was pretty evenly split or very undecided.

'Established' and 'shown' aren't the same. In the canon the writers made up by ACB, Lucy was already a Templar, with the different timezones from William M.'s emails, Juno's speech at the end of the game and the footsteps in ACB being red. Coincidentally.

The community not being sure has nothing to do with what was set in stone by the writers. They weren't even sure Lucy would be dead, with her bleeding out on the floor and the climax of the ACB ending.


They obviously intentionally left that a mystery after Brotherhood because they wanted people asking about the truth and who were hooked on the story enough to come back for the next story installment.

If that wouldn't have been a mystery, they wouldn't have come back?


When people came back expecting answers from a game subtitled "Revelations", there were none. It was only 3.5 months after Revelations' release that The Lost Archive came out with no advertising whatsoever to sort of vaguely show that Lucy defected to the Templars without using her voice actor or face in any way.

I think I already addressed it earlier that I am not defending TLA not being included in ACR.


Not exactly compelling storytelling.

Never said it was, but I still liked TLA's story in and of itself.


Even The Lost Archive introduced more story details that don't make sense, like Vidic only finding out about Ezio because of Subject 16, when their own The Chain comic indicates the Templars probably knew about him and Minerva's message at least 10 years earlier.

I addressed this after The Chain came out. It does indeed seem like an oversight, and that isn't the only one in there.

From a canon perspective however, the guardian of the Library of Ivan the Terrible only referred to the Prophet as 'Ezio' one time in passing, and the Prophet's Codex does not need to mention the name 'Ezio Auditore' instead of just 'the Prophet'. The Abstergo dossiers in AC3 talk about Daniel uncovering the "writings of the Prophet", bearing no indication that Abstergo knew about the name 'Ezio Auditore' at the time. It may have been what triggered Vidic's interest in the first place.


Saying the writers intentionally left things vague is just a cop-out and excuse for laziness. There are clever ways of being vague and leaving things up to us to connect some dots of the story, but Assassin's Creed does none of that. What they've done is throw tantalizing clues and scenarios that don't make sense but seem like they have some deeper meaning against the wall, and then ignored almost every one of them in future installments.

No, because it's what they actually do, and they have no trouble admitting that they intentionally leave this vague. The writers simply like leaving things unclear and up to the fans to speculate and theorize on. Daniel being involved in the DIA satellite accident is an example of that; they don't explicitly state it, but they do allude to it. The ACB and AC3 endings were no different in this sense.


If everyone comes up with wildly divergent theories for their interpretations of the clues of the series, you know the writers didn't present a focused story.

That depens on if it was their intention to leave things open, or if they purposely or accidentally looked these things over. Given how important these things were to the modern story, I'm inclined to go with the former, much as I'd like to see loose ends tied up like everybody else.


An example of doing vagueness the right way would have been AC3 giving us little clues and tidbits that shed light on what the glyphs meant all along. It would have been fun to be given enough clues to decipher the true message of the symbols behind the glyphs on our own. And yet those have been completely ignored since Brotherhood. Patrice once said in an interview for AC2 that he wanted to tell us what those all meant someday, but he may have been the only person who can tell us. And now he's gone.

I agree that they need to tie up loose ends, and in a much better way. With Desmond's story over, I don't want to think back on things not knowing what they meant or why they were there. Which is the exact reason why I try to decipher everything so that it makes sense to me, and is also why I decided to share it here. Whether you agree with it or not, my intention was mainly to show that things previously shown have not yet been ignored and retconned. And my point on that still stands.


How the hell did abstergo access the temple? they must of had an apple..

Good question - and if they did, wouldn't they need somebody with the right genes who would be able to open the door? Or need the Apple to be altered like when Minerva touched it at the end of AC2? I figure the door must have been left open, or destroyed.

twenty_glyphs
03-13-2013, 12:57 AM
@MasterSimaYi: I don't know how to reply to you line-by-line and leave my original quotes inline for context, so I'll just reply to a few points. Eden being in Turin, NY makes no sense because there's no connection other than a convoluted look at the Shroud of Turin. The Shroud of Turin in Italy is the Shroud of Eden, therefore Turin, NY is Eden is just a ridiculous leap of logic to make any sense to me. If that's supposed to be a clue, it's terrible.

All that people could think of was find Eve in Eden because those were the words. Why would I think find Eve in Eden must mean find Juno in Turin, NY? That's just plain silly.

Mount Kilimanjaro is a pretty distinctive mountain, so I consider that an important clue about the location of Eden. The human species is also supposed to have come from the continent of Africa in real life. Also, many people have speculated over the years about where the Biblical Eden was, and it was likely somewhere in the Middle East or Africa. More importantly, where Juno was discovered had nothing in common with what we were shown of Eden in AC2.

Subject 16 became useless because if he was just crazy and wrong, what's his purpose? He just does things that make no sense? That's not interesting. Him overcoming his captivity and insanity to help Desmond was interesting to me. His discovery of the hidden truth of history was interesting. Subject 16 rambling about things that were presented as important but later ignored is not interesting. He goes from hero who sacrificed himself to leave important messages for Desmond to madman who didn't know what he was doing and led Desmond into Juno's trap.

So you're saying the writers established to themselves in Brotherhood that Lucy was a Templar. I can agree with that, but it wasn't established in the story's canon. It was intentionally the big mystery of the game. No, it's not the only reason people would come back for the next game, but obviously a big cliffhanger helps keep people interested in your story. And the red footprints you cite were revealed in a developer interview to be an element to help players find their way back to the Monterrigioni Villa and had no story purpose at all in the summer of 2011. The earlier argument was that their showing of the truth was lazy and a copout when it finally came in The Lost Archive.

As for the writers intentionally leaving stuff vague, I have watched tons of interviews over the past 2.5 years, and I can hardly ever recall them saying they love to leave things vague and up to interpretation. I recall Corey May not answering all kinds of questions about AC3's story at last year's E3, making it seem like they would all be addressed in AC3, which most of them weren't. Neither he nor any other writer hinted that our questions wouldn't be addressed because they liked to leave it up to us to figure out. They actively made it seem as if our questions were waiting to be answered. Daniel being involved in the DIA incident is fine for being vague. But when they make these big things vague like what was up with Lucy, why Subject 16 showed Desmond The Truth video in AC2, why Subject 16 rambled about finding Eve in Eden and a son in ACB, why the heck Abstergo ever kidnapped Desmond in the first place and had a convoluted plan to let him escape despite his cooperation (did they want Alta´r's map? Ezio's Apple? Ezio's message from Minerva despite already having the full text?)... Those are important plot points that should not be left vague or up for interpretation. Especially when they don't even give more clues to help us decipher the mysteries.

When I say what's the point of continuing to try to decipher clues, I mean I feel there's no point in trying to piece together a story that appears to make no sense. Yes, I feel burned because I thought this story that a lot of people thought made no sense had a profound truth to reveal in AC3 that would tie a lot of the story elements together. Instead, we got whatever it is that AC3 was and an ending with an obvious setup for the future of the series. I certainly understand your desire to make sense of the story, but the average fan is going to stop caring, and many of us hardcore fans no longer care either. Intentionally vague or not, that's bad storytelling.

They need to figure out what the rules of their universe are and stick to them. I think a lot of their problems are coming from growing the brand so large in such a short period of time. Yearly installments make it hard to stay consistent, because writers on next year's game are going to have a hard time keeping up with the story from last year's game. Maybe for AC4 Darby McDevvitt can create some computer files you uncover in Abstergo that help clarify and explain some of the mysteries from Desmond's saga, but I just don't think there's any way to salvage Desmond's story at this point.

SixKeys
03-13-2013, 09:31 PM
I noticed another inconsistency between the interior design of Abstergo in AC2 and AC3. For the most part everything looks the same, but when Desmond first exits the lab at the beginning of AC2, if you look out the window, this is what you'll see: http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/JessKat/AC2AbstergoInterior_zps3aa7a2c8.jpg Note that the view from the window looks to be leading outside the building, as you can see the corner of what looks like a rooftop on the left side.

In AC3, this view is taken from the other side of that window (the lab where Desmond was trapped is right across the bridge):

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y200/JessKat/AC3AbstergoInterior_zps74f4d872.jpg Obviously the view is now inside the building rather than outside and filled with trees rather than flower benches. Given that the events of AC2 and AC3 are supposed to take place only a few weeks apart, Abstergo sure got around to redesigning their interior fast. As Desmond says in AC2, "Abstergo's got some ****ed up interior decorators". ;)

twenty_glyphs
03-14-2013, 05:50 PM
Good find, SixKeys. This kind of inconsistency doesn't bother me as much as major story issues though. I'm fine with some details of maps and levels changing over the course of time to accomodate the gameplay or other elements. But when they set up story points and then ignore them, that bothers me. I'm more invested in the fact that the emails paint the world as falling apart in AC1, yet it appears to be normal from all other iterations of the story. I don't pay much attention to the details of Abstergo's headquarters' outdoor decorations. Still, Abstergo taking on a massive redecorating project outside the Animus labs is more believable than whatever it is that happened to Desmond's face between the time he escaped in AC2 and came back in AC3...

shobhit7777777
03-14-2013, 06:07 PM
Also...how would the death of 96% of a population cause anarchy to the 4% remaining ?

You're joking right?

@OP

I've stopped giving ****s

At this point I'm just glad they ended the Desmond storyline.