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Zafar1981
03-05-2013, 09:29 AM
Ubisoft had mentioned about having a female protagonist for an Assassin's Creed mainline game (Xbox, PS and PC version) wouldn't b a surprise. What would you suggest if u r given a choice to play a mainline Assassin game with female assassin.

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 09:48 AM
I'd jump on it (pun intended.)

ZeSpecter
03-05-2013, 11:05 AM
I don't think it would have worked out well. Male protagonists has always been more interesting than female protagonists, which is mainly why like 90% of all game features a male protagonist and not a female.The only game with a female protagonist that has had a lot of success is Tomb Raider. If there was a male protagonist in Tomb Raider, there is no way it would become as popular as it is today. It just generally wouldn't work out well with a female protagonist in the games that are being made today.

Zafar1981
03-05-2013, 11:26 AM
Truth is girls or female don't like to play video games esp like Assassin's creed one. So Ubisoft have to think twice or thrice time of indulging a female protagonist in this series.

silvermercy
03-05-2013, 12:01 PM
Compared to Hollywood, the game industry is soooo far behind with what their demographic wants. They just play it safe with their established male fan-base, which I suppose they feel it's concrete enough for now and, thus, they do not want to upset it with formula experimentations.

Female gamers don't play AC? O_o I have the feeling they are way more than the male ones sometimes! Have people visited other sites or any game cons lately? The female cosplayers outnumber the male ones on that, too.

Also look at the official stats for gamers last year. 47% is women. At this rate it will outnumber male gamers in the next couple of years. http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp (and I doubt we're talking about Tetris, Pac Man, and other "girlie" games, but games like Fallout, Uncharted, AC etc. The parameters should be similar between genders for such stats to be made official, no other explanation).

Also, I'm female and I mostly play 18+ games (gore, violence).
Having said that, I prefer console AC to stay *le gasp* male. :D I've heard other females say the same thing... We need to fangirl you know... :o

henne-kei
03-05-2013, 12:02 PM
Tell that to my friends.
I couldn't care less if the "hero" is mal or female. As long as s/he is interesting.

SixKeys
03-05-2013, 12:58 PM
I don't think it would have worked out well. Male protagonists has always been more interesting than female protagonists, which is mainly why like 90% of all game features a male protagonist and not a female.The only game with a female protagonist that has had a lot of success is Tomb Raider. If there was a male protagonist in Tomb Raider, there is no way it would become as popular as it is today. It just generally wouldn't work out well with a female protagonist in the games that are being made today.

You don't play a lot of games, do you?

Successful games with female protagonists, besides Tomb Raider: Metroid, Bayonetta, Portal 1 & 2, Mirror's Edge, Heavenly Sword, Mass Effect 1-3, Silent Hill 3, American McGee's Alice, Okami, Bloodrayne etc. Most of these are western games, I'm sure there are also a ton of Japanese games I'm not as familiar with. Then there's games like Jade Empire and Left 4 Dead where at least one of the playable protagonists is female and Journey where the main character's gender is unknown (if they even have a gender).

The reason 90% of games have a male lead has nothing to do with them being more interesting. They are given interesting backstories because they are male. There are still regrettably few women writing for video games, so the female characters that we get tend to be written from a man's perspective, i.e. as eye candy, a prize to be won or a person who needs protecting instead of being the protector.

Another factor is the stereotype that girls don't play games, which studies have proven false. As Silvermercy pointed out, 47% of gamers are currently female. That number is only going to keep on growing. And they're not just playing social games like Farmville but the same games guys are playing. I would wager that there are almost as many girls who play Assassin's Creed as there are guys playing it.

So, in response to the OP: I definitely would like to see an AC game with a female protagonist on the main platforms.

solarhalfbreed
03-05-2013, 01:02 PM
Truth is girls or female don't like to play video games esp like Assassin's creed one. So Ubisoft have to think twice or thrice time of indulging a female protagonist in this series.

Thats a bit of an ignorant statement if you don't mind me saying.
But that aside, I have to agree that male protagonists are a little more interesting than female ones but only because the female characters are usually never written very well.

Eternal Reward
03-05-2013, 01:09 PM
The biggest problem is I would have, is that I feel like the would focus a bit too much on her being hot and good-looking, than they would her character. Though, feel free to prove me wrong Ubi.

And, as a preference, I do find it harder to find a cool action hero to be a girl.

But hey, if they can pull it off, I'm all for it.

SixKeys
03-05-2013, 01:12 PM
The biggest problem is I would have, is that I feel like the would focus a bit too much on her being hot and good-looking, than they would her character. Though, feel free to prove me wrong Ubi.

And, as a preference, I do find it harder to find a cool action hero to be a girl.

But hey, if they can pull it off, I'm all for it.

They did a great job on Aveline's design in Liberation. Probably my favorite assassin design besides Alta´r. They focused on making her look strong, fitting for the time period and badass, not just hot. I don't see why they couldn't do the same on a main console release.

TheHumanTowel
03-05-2013, 01:15 PM
I wouldn't mind. I originally would've like the ancestors to stay male because Ubi had a sort of symbolic reincarnation theme going with the links between Desmond and his ancestors but now that that's pretty much over I don't care what gender the protagonist is.

Eternal Reward
03-05-2013, 01:19 PM
They did a great job on Aveline's design in Liberation. Probably my favorite assassin design besides Alta´r. They focused on making her look strong, fitting for the time period and badass, not just hot. I don't see why they couldn't do the same on a main console release.

Maybe I don't trust them with it as much because of how they have all the female multiplayer Avatars. Seriously, can one of them look vaguely normal? God forbid one of them looks unattractive.

:p

But hey, if they can do it again, kudos for them. I guess the recent Tomb Raider game is a great example of how the VG industry is turning.

silvermercy
03-05-2013, 01:23 PM
But hey, if they can do it again, kudos for them. I guess the recent Tomb Raider game is a great example of how the VG industry is turning.
Yes!! Maybe all games should come from Japanese companies like Square Enix. ^^

SixKeys
03-05-2013, 01:27 PM
Yes!! Maybe all games should come from Japanese companies like Square Enix. ^^

God no.

Eternal Reward
03-05-2013, 01:28 PM
God no.

Second this.

silvermercy
03-05-2013, 01:35 PM
God no.
I was kidding. Don't worry! lol (They did a good job with latest Tomb Raider though!)

dxsxhxcx
03-05-2013, 01:38 PM
I don't think it would have worked out well. Male protagonists has always been more interesting than female protagonists, which is mainly why like 90% of all game features a male protagonist and not a female.The only game with a female protagonist that has had a lot of success is Tomb Raider. If there was a male protagonist in Tomb Raider, there is no way it would become as popular as it is today. It just generally wouldn't work out well with a female protagonist in the games that are being made today.

IMO female protagonists have potential to be much more interesting than male protagonists exactly because 90% of the games feature a male protagonist, the writers just need to stop being lazy and write good stories about them instead of focus only on the sex appeal...

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 02:09 PM
Yeah, I've been wanting them to do this for a long time. I was really surprised that we haven't had a main console/PC port of Liberation this year, since it would have been a relatively cheap way for the company to insulate itself for a year while allowing next-gen console sales to pick up. So I still haven't played that.

Sometimes female characters in games feel like they're built by a committee, which is evident in the way I said "female characters"; my fingers flinched from calling them "women in games" with the same confidence that I could say "men in games". Video games are still finding their way with the creation of strong characters, but there are plenty of men about whom we have a solid image. You'll often see angry debates about the latest chapter of a game, with fans of a series stating firmly, "But [Guy X] would never do that! How did the writers manage to mess this up?" and so on. There are few video game women who would inspire that kind of argument, because they're not so well formed and therefore we wouldn't recognise a misstep if it slapped us in the face. We really don't know what many of them would or wouldn't do, or think, because they're comparatively flat.

So I hope she won't be ticking boxes when she arrives. I hope the creators think about their own (hypothetical or real) daughters, and imagine a character who would make them proud of their parents. Just because she's a woman, does she need to seek a relationship? If she does, on what terms? Can she be a badass without having to pay for that right by being abused first? Are you doing anything with this character as a tacit apology to MRAs for her even being in the game? Is it important for her to be a hero? Is she "good"? Why? What does she want most? What gets in her way? If the word "empowerment" crosses your mind even once, do you promise to resign immediately? That kind of thing.

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 02:11 PM
Aveline was a great example of a fitting nonsexualized female Assassin so I don't see why they can't do it again. Then there's Shao Jun too. And many females do play videogames and AC someone posted a link that said by this year's end female gamers will outnumber us so there's that. And frankly, a female's backstory can be much, much more interesting than a standard male's. We are virtually never presented with that side of the story. Some people I see say they feel awkward playing as a female character. I have no idea why? Women don't complain playing as a male charcter, I don't feel awkward playing as a female character in other games. Expand your choice a little and you'll encounter a brave new world. I've always asked for a female Assassin, make it happen Ubi. Better yet, make it a female Indian Assassin and I'll be an ecstatic panda. :p

mazohystic
03-05-2013, 04:03 PM
I haven't played Liberation but as a female, I'm making a point to buy it someday (please please please release it for anything else other than Vita, Ubisoft). From what I've heard and seen from Aveline is impressive. The fact that she's half black and a woman is seriously a step in the right direction. We need to keep breaking down the racial and gender barriers.

However the Black Flag trailer definitely took it two steps backwards. If banging two chicks at the same time is supposed to be "cool" then I am so done (why is Edward fully clothed anyway at least give us ladies some eye candy too). Come on Ubisoft, you know better than that... Women aren't to be objectified!

But yes. I would like female protagonist in Assassin's Creed. I think it would be seriously really great if it was a modern assassin too, but we already know how Ubi feels about modern assassins.

I-Like-Pie45
03-05-2013, 04:16 PM
I was kidding. Don't worry! lol (They did a good job with latest Tomb Raider though!)
You mean a good job of publishing someone else's work....

silvermercy
03-05-2013, 04:16 PM
I haven't played Liberation but as a female, I'm making a point to buy it someday (please please please release it for anything else other than Vita, Ubisoft). From what I've heard and seen from Aveline is impressive. The fact that she's half black and a woman is seriously a step in the right direction. We need to keep breaking down the racial and gender barriers.

However the Black Flag trailer definitely took it two steps backwards. If banging two chicks at the same time is supposed to be "cool" then I am so done (why is Edward fully clothed anyway at least give us ladies some eye candy too). Come on Ubisoft, you know better than that... Women aren't to be objectified!

But yes. I would like female protagonist in Assassin's Creed. I think it would be seriously really great if it was a modern assassin too, but we already know how Ubi feels about modern assassins.
I just found my new forum sister!! :) Agree with everything obviously.

silvermercy
03-05-2013, 04:21 PM
You mean a good job of publishing someone else's work....
I don't understand.... Whoever's work it is, Squeenix is still the publisher for the latest game.

jenyto
03-05-2013, 04:24 PM
I wouldn't care much for a female protagonist to be honest :nonchalance:

andreja110s
03-05-2013, 04:32 PM
I think it would be interesting to finally play as a female.

mazohystic
03-05-2013, 04:35 PM
I just found my new forum sister!! :)

And so have I! :D

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 04:39 PM
I don't understand.... Whoever's work it is, Squeenix is still the publisher for the latest game.

Yeah, but if you like a record, you praise the band not its label. They probably had little to do with Tomb Raider's creative decisions and, much as it is with music, you would generally only praise a publisher for its lack of input rather than its involvement.

Bastiaen
03-05-2013, 05:17 PM
I haven't played Liberation but as a female, I'm making a point to buy it someday (please please please release it for anything else other than Vita, Ubisoft). From what I've heard and seen from Aveline is impressive. The fact that she's half black and a woman is seriously a step in the right direction. We need to keep breaking down the racial and gender barriers.

However the Black Flag trailer definitely took it two steps backwards. If banging two chicks at the same time is supposed to be "cool" then I am so done (why is Edward fully clothed anyway at least give us ladies some eye candy too). Come on Ubisoft, you know better than that... Women aren't to be objectified!

But yes. I would like female protagonist in Assassin's Creed. I think it would be seriously really great if it was a modern assassin too, but we already know how Ubi feels about modern assassins.

Women aren't to be objectified? But men are? You want eye candy, but you want the human body to not be sexualized... I'm confused. What do you want? Human sexuality is normal to the human experience. Why is it strange for the men to think that a beautiful, (implied) naked woman is attractive? Or for the women to want to see more of Edward?
On a more relevant note, I would love to see a strong female character in a main platform game. Aveline is great as portable titles go. I do wish she had been more strongly developed as a character though. She needed more personality. She had plenty of great story (missing mother, strained relationship with mentor, etc.), but no real traits. That's why I didn't reallly blink at the unhacked ending. I actually thought she could turn Templar at that point.

ZeSpecter
03-05-2013, 05:42 PM
You don't play a lot of games, do you?

Successful games with female protagonists, besides Tomb Raider: Metroid, Bayonetta, Portal 1 & 2, Mirror's Edge, Heavenly Sword, Mass Effect 1-3, Silent Hill 3, American McGee's Alice, Okami, Bloodrayne etc. Most of these are western games, I'm sure there are also a ton of Japanese games I'm not as familiar with. Then there's games like Jade Empire and Left 4 Dead where at least one of the playable protagonists is female and Journey where the main character's gender is unknown (if they even have a gender).

The reason 90% of games have a male lead has nothing to do with them being more interesting. They are given interesting backstories because they are male. There are still regrettably few women writing for video games, so the female characters that we get tend to be written from a man's perspective, i.e. as eye candy, a prize to be won or a person who needs protecting instead of being the protector.

Another factor is the stereotype that girls don't play games, which studies have proven false. As Silvermercy pointed out, 47% of gamers are currently female. That number is only going to keep on growing. And they're not just playing social games like Farmville but the same games guys are playing. I would wager that there are almost as many girls who play Assassin's Creed as there are guys playing it.

So, in response to the OP: I definitely would like to see an AC game with a female protagonist on the main platforms.
I do

You fail to see my point.
Some of the games you mention is optional whether you want to play as a male or female. Also the protagonist in Portal is said to be Chell, but let's be honest here; during the entire game you control the two robots which has no gender (judging by their voices they are male though) therefore it wouldn't necessarily be true to call Chell the protagonist. Left 4 Dead is irrelevant because there are 3 male protagonists in the same game. Besides many of the games you mention here really aren't that popular compared to games with male protagonists.

Take a look at this: http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them
(http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them)
Those statistics are not reliable for console/PC gamers because they are based on ALL forms of gaming in the entire world, from gaming websites, to facebook games, to mobile games and so on. From personal experience I can point out that there are more females on my school (High-school) that plays facebook games than there are males.

redman265
03-05-2013, 05:54 PM
I dont think a female assassin would make a good pirate story. I've heard that Liberation was a good game but what that made it so good was because of her own story. I think thats the big differents between Male and Female. You need to make a good story that fits a Female or Male

SixKeys
03-05-2013, 05:57 PM
(http://penny-arcade.com/report/editorial-article/games-with-female-heroes-dont-sell-because-publishers-dont-support-them)
Those statistics are not reliable for console/PC gamers because they are based on ALL forms of gaming in the entire world, from gaming websites, to facebook games, to mobile games and so on. From personal experience I can point out that there are more females on my school (High-school) that plays facebook games than there are males.

In a similar manner, I can point out that all my female friends play PC and console games and none of them are into Facebook games. So as you can see, personal experience doesn't count for anything.

The article you posted is good, but I hope you realize it defeats your original point about male characters being so prevalent because they're more interesting. The reason there are less female protagonists has a lot to do with the kind of attitude you're displaying: looking at the lack of games with female protags and viewing that as proof that this is how things should be. We don't have a lot of black protagonists either. Do you think that's because black people just aren't as interesting as white people? Of course not, it's because publishers are afraid of losing their target audience which they perceive to consist mainly of white men.

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 06:01 PM
Women aren't to be objectified? But men are? You want eye candy, but you want the human body to not be sexualized... I'm confused. What do you want? Human sexuality is normal to the human experience. Why is it strange for the men to think that a beautiful, (implied) naked woman is attractive? Or for the women to want to see more of Edward?


There's a huge difference between sexualisation and objectification. There's objectification in the trailer because the women are only there to adore the guy. When we see male sexualisation in gaming imagery, the man still looks strong and in control (just like he looks below, except out of his clothes) whereas something different is going on for the women.

http://i.imgur.com/PTGLLQx.jpg by http://eleyonart.deviantart.com/

A lot of people think that we're in a post-feminist world in which this stuff no longer applies, but it plainly does. As blogs such as Escher Girls (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/) point out, we're actually going backwards. Women are routinely portrayed and posed in ways that they wouldn't have been 20 years ago, because people would have laughed that **** out of the room.

One of the favourite games on Tumblr right now is highlighting this stuff by redrawing male superheroes in the exact poses used for women:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/bc6393f3b0f1bbfe880415067a5c17f0/tumblr_mhz066TZPy1r2wtkzo1_500.jpg

It might seem like no big deal, but it is presenting an idea that when a woman is a superhero, she's not as "super" as a man. Opposing this representation is not the same thing as opposing sex or sexual imagery.

lothario-da-be
03-05-2013, 06:02 PM
Well ac liberation had an african female so i don't think they would take the hot ***** way.

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 06:05 PM
I dont think a female assassin would make a good pirate story. I've heard that Liberation was a good game but what that made it so good was because of her own story. I think thats the big differents between Male and Female. You need to make a good story that fits a Female or Male

Anne Bonny has been confirmed as one real life woman pirate in the game. There were many in the time period.

They can't give you a choice of character in AC, and the call for that points out the issue here: male is default, but female can only be an option?

SixKeys
03-05-2013, 06:10 PM
Anne Bonny has been confirmed as one real life woman pirate in the game. There were many in the time period.

They can't give you a choice of character in AC, and the call for that points out the issue here: male is default, but female can only be an option?

Exactly, thank you. You just know that if we suddenly started seeing the same amount of female protagonists in games as there have been males for years, all the male gamers would cry out "teh feminists are taking over!!1". :rolleyes:

Eternal Reward
03-05-2013, 06:11 PM
A lot of people think that we're in a post-feminist world in which this stuff no longer applies, but it plainly does. As blogs such as Escher Girls (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/) point out, we're actually going backwards. Women are routinely portrayed and posed in ways that they wouldn't have been 20 years ago, because people would have laughed that **** out of the room.

Well, actually they would have considered it inappropriate. Woman allowed to pose like that now was actually a byproduct of the feminist movement. Soooo...


One of the favourite games on Tumblr right now is highlighting this stuff by redrawing male superheroes in the exact poses used for women.

:( do woman consider that attractive? Cause if they do I get it, but I kinda doubt that....

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 06:18 PM
Well, actually they would have considered it inappropriate. Woman allowed to pose like that now was actually a byproduct of the feminist movement. Soooo...

But they're not women choosing to pose. They're cartoons, drawn by an overwhelmingly male artist set. Greg Land has been caught tracing orgasm faces from porn, to use as the faces of his female superheroes in pain for fight scenes.

All these poses were established in adult entertainment long before the new breed of comics, so I don't know what you mean by "women being allowed to pose like that now". Women have been encouraged to pose like that since forever.



:( do woman consider that attractive? Cause if they do I get it, but I kinda doubt that....

No they don't, and that's the point. Those poses weaken their subjects and make them look stupid.

Eternal Reward
03-05-2013, 06:22 PM
But they're not women choosing to pose. They're cartoons, drawn by an overwhelmingly male artist set. Greg Land has been caught tracing orgasm faces from porn, to use as the faces of his female superheroes in pain for fight scenes.

All these poses were established in adult entertainment long before the new breed of comics, so I don't know what you mean by "women being allowed to pose like that now". Women have been encouraged to pose like that since forever.

Well, yeah, but it wasn't considered as acceptable.


No they don't, and that's the point. Those poses weaken their subjects and make them look stupid.

Well, it's considered attractive, for some men. Personally, I never find superhero woman all that attractive; WAY to unrealistic.

If they were targeting girls, they would make men do....whatever attracts females.

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 06:24 PM
Well, yeah, but it wasn't considered as acceptable.

QED. Glad to have you on board :P

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 06:34 PM
Anne Bonny has been confirmed as one real life woman pirate in the game.

Can't wait to meet her in the game should be very very very (.. to infinity) interesting.

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 06:36 PM
Greg Land has been caught tracing orgasm faces from porn, to use as the faces of his female superheroes in pain for fight scenes.


dafuq did I read O.o

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 06:40 PM
^Or maybe people just connect to male protagonists better? You have many people accepting in threads like these, that they don't feel comfortable playing as a female character.

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 06:40 PM
dafuq did I read O.o

It's pretty sad. Not only does he trace all the time, from magazine ads, TV actors, and yes, even pornography, he reuses these traced elements again and again. There's at least one blog dedicated to him, and you can find huge forum threads where people have got together to find the sources of his most suspect frames. They're not even "used as inspiration"; they're line-for-line traced.

ZeSpecter
03-05-2013, 06:41 PM
The article you posted is good, but I hope you realize it defeats your original point about male characters being so prevalent because they're more interesting. The reason there are less female protagonists has a lot to do with the kind of attitude you're displaying: looking at the lack of games with female protags and viewing that as proof that this is how things should be. We don't have a lot of black protagonists either. Do you think that's because black people just aren't as interesting as white people? Of course not, it's because publishers are afraid of losing their target audience which they perceive to consist mainly of white men.
This is about female and male protagonists. It has nothing to do with whether the protagonist is black or white.

And no, it does not defeat my point about male protagonists being more interesting than female protagonists, after all the article says nothing about that. However it clearly says:
"In terms of pure sales numbers, in the first three months of availability, games with only a male hero sold around 25 percent better than games with an optional female hero. Games with exclusively male heroes sold around 75 percent better than games with only female heroes."
Which would lead me to the conclusion that male protagonists are more interesting than female protagonist, but never at any stage did I say that was a fact.

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 06:41 PM
It's pretty sad. Not only does he trace all the time, from magazine ads, TV actors, and yes, even pornography, he reuses these traced elements again and again. There's at least one blog dedicated to him, and you can find huge forum threads where people have got together to find the sources of his most suspect frames. They're not even "used as inspiration"; they're line-for-line traced.

Sigh.. *shakes head* Pretty sad indeed..

Eternal Reward
03-05-2013, 06:42 PM
It's pretty sad. Not only does he trace all the time, from magazine ads, TV actors, and yes, even pornography, he reuses these traced elements again and again. There's at least one blog dedicated to him, and you can find huge forum threads where people have got together to find the sources of his most suspect frames. They're not even "used as inspiration"; they're line-for-line traced.

*Eternal reward's "Faith in Humanity" meter has just dropped*

Aw dangit....

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 06:43 PM
*Eternal reward's "Faith in Humanity" meter has just dropped*

Aw dangit....

You should beat him with a shovel.

Bastiaen
03-05-2013, 06:43 PM
There's a huge difference between sexualisation and objectification. There's objectification in the trailer because the women are only there to adore the guy. When we see male sexualisation in gaming imagery, the man still looks strong and in control (just like he looks below, except out of his clothes) whereas something different is going on for the women.

http://i.imgur.com/PTGLLQx.jpg by http://eleyonart.deviantart.com/

A lot of people think that we're in a post-feminist world in which this stuff no longer applies, but it plainly does. As blogs such as Escher Girls (http://eschergirls.tumblr.com/) point out, we're actually going backwards. Women are routinely portrayed and posed in ways that they wouldn't have been 20 years ago, because people would have laughed that **** out of the room.

One of the favourite games on Tumblr right now is highlighting this stuff by redrawing male superheroes in the exact poses used for women:

http://24.media.tumblr.com/bc6393f3b0f1bbfe880415067a5c17f0/tumblr_mhz066TZPy1r2wtkzo1_500.jpg

It might seem like no big deal, but it is presenting an idea that when a woman is a superhero, she's not as "super" as a man. Opposing this representation is not the same thing as opposing sex or sexual imagery.

All very good arguments. I guess that I didn't really see the distinction between sexualization and objectification, but you pointed that out clearly. Thanks for the clarification. Just to make sure I understand, objectification involves the helplessness of a person? That they are portrayed as something which is solely sexual? I'm certainly opposed to that. I do think there is a difficult line to draw between sexualization (eye candy) and objectification though.

silvermercy
03-05-2013, 06:45 PM
Which would lead me to the conclusion that male protagonists are more interesting than female protagonist, but never at any stage did I say that was a fact.
This is not my conclusion from that article. My conclusion is that since male characters are more established, they are, thus, given more interesting stories. And people buy them more as a result.

pacmanate
03-05-2013, 06:46 PM
Males ftw

Eternal Reward
03-05-2013, 06:47 PM
You should beat him with a shovel.

Oh, I already have......still didn't help. *sigh*:(

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 06:52 PM
This is about female and male protagonists. It has nothing to do with whether the protagonist is black or white.

And no, it does not defeat my point about male protagonists being more interesting than female protagonists, after all the article says nothing about that. However it clearly says:
"In terms of pure sales numbers, in the first three months of availability, games with only a male hero sold around 25 percent better than games with an optional female hero. Games with exclusively male heroes sold around 75 percent better than games with only female heroes."
Which would lead me to the conclusion that male protagonists are more interesting than female protagonist, but never at any stage did I say that was a fact.

The article is also pointing out that publishers don't sink as much money into promoting games that aren't about a single male protag. When games with a woman protagonist are so thin on the ground, it's not really fair to say "we did that one or twice and it failed".


Games with only female heroes are given half the marketing budget as games with male heroes. That’s an enormous handicap that cripples their ability to sell well.
“Games with a female only protagonist, got half the spending of female optional, and only 40 percent of the marketing budget of male-led games. Less than that, actually,” Zatkin said.



There are so many questions about why those figures are the way they are, and why some woman protag games have failed to sell. Did the games with an optional female hero sell badly because customers are really rejecting female characters as if the games were contaminated, or is there something deeper? For instance, what types of games have an optional female hero? Fable II and III? Are there other reasons why those games had disappointing sales numbers? What about hugely successful games like Mass Effect?


With under 30 games with exclusively female protagonists, and those games receiving much smaller marketing budgets than games with variable genders or male leads, it’s hard to draw any conclusions about the impact of gender on sales or reviews.


It’s also hard to draw many broad conclusions from this data. There are so few games with exclusively female heroes, and those few games are given such a small marketing budget, do we even know how well a large-budget, marketed game with a female hero would perform?

Let's see how Tomb Raider does, despite being long in the tooth and undergoing a risky reboot, versus recent underperforming blockbusters such as Dead Space 3.

hellomrdarcy
03-05-2013, 06:58 PM
From a female perspective here as well, I'd love to play as a well written female assassin. Why not? Aveline would be a great character for a main game, I think that she's been shown to be a very good first playable female assassin, I personally also think that it was very nice to see that she wasn't sexualized in any way. I can't wait for what the future holds, because t's bound to happen, we all know that a female will come sooner or later. Oh, and I also have male friends that many times expressed their love for a female to enter, thinking it would be "different and cool". ;)

Still, all love to the males.

D.I.D.
03-05-2013, 07:18 PM
All very good arguments. I guess that I didn't really see the distinction between sexualization and objectification, but you pointed that out clearly. Thanks for the clarification. Just to make sure I understand, objectification involves the helplessness of a person? That they are portrayed as something which is solely sexual? I'm certainly opposed to that. I do think there is a difficult line to draw between sexualization (eye candy) and objectification though.

Objectification is noticable when there's a reduction of a subject's status or stature because of the treatment of their sexuality, but of course there are shades of grey. It's obvious when character designers are talking in interviews about submitting character designs which are sent back with instructions to make the breasts larger. I've even bought tutorial videos from TAD where the pro concept artist tutor is looking into the camera and telling you without blinking that you have to boost the sex appeal on all female characters (unless they're over 40, because yuuuuck. Am I right, guys? Huh? Guys?). So the message for characters is "YOU MUST BE AT LEAST THIS SEXY TO ENTER", and that's an insult to a lot of customers too.

Very few people are saying it should be a blanket rule that nobody shall be allowed to do this ever again, which is unfortunately the message that a lot of affronted men take from these arguments when challenged with them. If we had a more balanced market, Lollipop Chainsaw would be fine. She's a silly bubblegum character for a game that's a parody of a US high school. We just need more space between her and the rest of female characters in games.

Taking the example of female superheroes: as Kurt Busiek explained one time, sure, there are going to be sexy bombshell characters. That's a legitimate kind of character, and if you're going to express a range of people then it's likely that these characters will exist: aim for range and depth in each character, and also range and depth between characters. The problem is that every female superhero has become a sexy bombshell by default, and it's to the detriment of the story. The sexiness of that character ought to have some role within the story, but that role becomes unclear or even unimportant if the character's presence is diminished. The character's sexiness, and really the sexiness of all of these characters, stops doing the thing it's supposed to do. You can try and fight it -- if the female baseline is sexy, then make the really sexy character REALLY SCREAMINGLY SEXY -- but you'll probably end up with an absurd caricature instead of a character, and a culture that's spiralling out of control. It's a weaker product for its intended audience, and also it just turns off people who might otherwise have found something to enjoy in the work.

TheHumanTowel
03-05-2013, 07:38 PM
But they're not women choosing to pose. They're cartoons, drawn by an overwhelmingly male artist set. Greg Land has been caught tracing orgasm faces from porn, to use as the faces of his female superheroes in pain for fight scenes.

All these poses were established in adult entertainment long before the new breed of comics, so I don't know what you mean by "women being allowed to pose like that now". Women have been encouraged to pose like that since forever.

Greg Land is so unbelievably terrible. I don't know he gets work.

Murd3r Claws
03-05-2013, 07:43 PM
Honestly depending on the time period a female Assassin would be way better than a male. Take Aveline...not only was she a girl but she was black...during slavery. This means the ignorant white men would never suspect a woman is killing all these people. We guys are easily manipulated by women, a female Assassin would be devastating. Smaller in size, making her more agile in combat. Being a woman in pretty much any time period the men assume they are weak and need protecting...what better way to prove Men wrong? Besides I'm sick of manly man I-can-do-anything-bc-I-am-man protags...its freakin boring

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 07:44 PM
We guys are easily manipulated by women

Sad truth. :(

Murd3r Claws
03-05-2013, 07:47 PM
Sad truth. :(

lol well not me...im too awesome

pirate1802
03-05-2013, 07:48 PM
lol well not me...im too awesome

Well yeah.. I'm too awesome too.. *pretends to be awesome*

hellomrdarcy
03-05-2013, 07:58 PM
lol well not me...im too awesome

“I know every man, whether straight, gay or George mother-f****ng Bush, is terrified of the p ussy” - Lafayette.

LMAO sorry. I had to.

shobhit7777777
03-05-2013, 08:23 PM
Physical attractiveness is irrelevant IMO

What bothers me most is how disproportionate is a character's in-game physical ability to his/her physicality.

It becomes an issue when the Male character is well muscled and athletic (Connor) and looks believable as the kind of person who would run cross country and then fight a battallion....but when it comes to female characters...they are designed with aesthetics over plausibility...most of them don't have athletic frames and seem incapable of the hard and gruelling acts of physical violence being represented on screen...this is what bugs me.

THAT IMO is objectionable and certainly reeks of catering to the LCD instead of investing actual time and effort in designing a believable lead.

I would like athletic and strong looking female leads....IDC about how hot they are or how pretty they look in a dress....they should be believable. If you have a believable and well written female character, IMO, you've created an engaging female protagonist.

Heck look at Jessica Chastain's "Maya" in ZDT....that is one badass chick....I absolutely loved watching her on screen. Her physical appearance had no bearing on the film and her portrayal and thats the way it should be - character development, dialogue and portrayal



I don't care if a the female lead is a sultry and exotic seductress as long as she is well written, well portrayed, layered and is actually believable as an *** kicking, sword fighting, parkouring Assassin

Conversely

I don't care if the female lead is an average looking, cow herd moonlighting as an assassin as long as she is well written, well portrayed, layered and believable in terms of the physicality required to kick *** and do assassiny things.

Also regarding sexualisation and objectification of males vs females -

IMO they both have it as bad its just that the female version gets more flak because unfortunately this is a male dominated world and we've kinda been *******s to the fairer sex....otherwise, in all honesty...we are both equally hypersexualized

HisSpiritLives
03-05-2013, 09:36 PM
Dont want to be sexist but female character .......UBI dont do that ......:(

xx-pyro
03-05-2013, 10:05 PM
Because it isn't Ubisofts job to break down social standards, it's their job to make enjoyable games. Could they do that with a female lead? Of course. Is it their job to to detach from social stigmas or else they are a terrible company? Hell no, so stop acting like it.

mazohystic
03-05-2013, 10:06 PM
Women aren't to be objectified? But men are? You want eye candy, but you want the human body to not be sexualized... I'm confused. What do you want? Human sexuality is normal to the human experience. Why is it strange for the men to think that a beautiful, (implied) naked woman is attractive? Or for the women to want to see more of Edward?
On a more relevant note, I would love to see a strong female character in a main platform game. Aveline is great as portable titles go. I do wish she had been more strongly developed as a character though. She needed more personality. She had plenty of great story (missing mother, strained relationship with mentor, etc.), but no real traits. That's why I didn't reallly blink at the unhacked ending. I actually thought she could turn Templar at that point.

Yeah I admit, I contradicted myself. But my issue is not with the fact that the scene is explicit, but rather what is implied to have happened in the scene and the intent of Ubisoft putting it in. I know some will say, "it's the pirate lifestyle!" but (to me at least) it comes off as, "look at how cool this new protagonist is, he can get laid twice and at the same time." I think there's a difference between appreciating the human body (eye candy) and using women to show how cool Edward is. Maybe I just read too many feminist Tumblr blogs.

PS. Sorry for getting off topic, whoops. Still rooting for a female protagonist though. Modern female assassin protagonist preferred~

AssassinHMS
03-05-2013, 11:02 PM
I don't think assassin's creed needs to have a female protagonist. Financially it wouldn't be a good move since most AC fans are men and it wouldn't mix with the game tone very well. I don't want to appear to be sexist but its already quite ridiculous to see a guy (like Connor) kill 20 soldiers in 2 minutes and watcing a women doing that would be even worse, unless the game's main focus was stealth and combat was really hard. Not only that, but when I play Assassin's Creed, I want to imerse myself in the world and feel like I'm in there, like I'm the assassin and that would be difficult if the main character is female. So I don't want an Assassin's Creed game with a female protagonist though I would be ok if there was an option to choose to play either as a female or as a male.

Xstantin
03-05-2013, 11:35 PM
Not only that, but when I play Assassin's Creed, I want to imerse myself in the world and feel like I'm in there, like I'm the assassin and that would be difficult if the main character is female. So I don't want an Assassin's Creed game with a female protagonist though I would be ok if there was an option to choose to play either as a female or as a male.

I don't have an issue with playing as female character in MP, it's not as important you still do the same. Same can be said for AC Liberation I think.

Bastiaen
03-07-2013, 08:51 PM
Yeah I admit, I contradicted myself. But my issue is not with the fact that the scene is explicit, but rather what is implied to have happened in the scene and the intent of Ubisoft putting it in. I know some will say, "it's the pirate lifestyle!" but (to me at least) it comes off as, "look at how cool this new protagonist is, he can get laid twice and at the same time." I think there's a difference between appreciating the human body (eye candy) and using women to show how cool Edward is. Maybe I just read too many feminist Tumblr blogs.

PS. Sorry for getting off topic, whoops. Still rooting for a female protagonist though. Modern female assassin protagonist preferred~

I don't think Ubisoft was like "Let's make a trailer that makes our character look like a womanizer because that sells." I think it was much simpler: "Boobs. I like boobs. Boobs sell. Let's put 'em in the trailer... boobs." So it was all about selling the sex, rather than the idea of Edward being a ladies man.

Spider_Sith9
03-08-2013, 02:47 AM
Shao Jun. That is all.

THE_JOKE_KING33
03-08-2013, 03:04 AM
Tell that to my friends.
I couldn't care less if the "hero" is male or female. As long as s/he is interesting.

Couldn't have typed it better myself. The person could be green and from Jupiter for all i care as long as the person is interesting I'll like them.

cmrggamer
03-08-2013, 04:23 AM
I personally would like an AC game with a female protagonist. I have loved all three assassins so far and I think Ubi has done a great job making each one unique from one another. If she has an interesting story and is set during a time period/location that makes sense, then why not? I have faith that Ubi could make a compelling female character protagonist.

pirate1802
03-08-2013, 04:56 AM
People, you CAN relate to a protagonist of a different gender, play Tomb Raider you'll understand. You don't have to share the character's gender to share his/her struggles and emotion.

And about people saying a woman assassin would not fit, well there already ARE any female assassins in these games. How many of the recruits in ACB and ACR were female? Many. Also Dobbie Carter. Also Aveline. We just haven't seen them in lead roles, that's all. To those who are saying a female assassin fighting 20 men doesn't make sense, well so does a male however strong fighting 20 men. We should open our mind a little bit and embrace this idea: That a person of a different gender can be as interesting as a person from yours!


Physical attractiveness is irrelevant IMO

What bothers me most is how disproportionate is a character's in-game physical ability to his/her physicality.

It becomes an issue when the Male character is well muscled and athletic (Connor) and looks believable as the kind of person who would run cross country and then fight a battallion....but when it comes to female characters...they are designed with aesthetics over plausibility...most of them don't have athletic frames and seem incapable of the hard and gruelling acts of physical violence being represented on screen...this is what bugs me.

THAT IMO is objectionable and certainly reeks of catering to the LCD instead of investing actual time and effort in designing a believable lead.

I would like athletic and strong looking female leads....IDC about how hot they are or how pretty they look in a dress....they should be believable. If you have a believable and well written female character, IMO, you've created an engaging female protagonist.

Heck look at Jessica Chastain's "Maya" in ZDT....that is one badass chick....I absolutely loved watching her on screen. Her physical appearance had no bearing on the film and her portrayal and thats the way it should be - character development, dialogue and portrayal



I don't care if a the female lead is a sultry and exotic seductress as long as she is well written, well portrayed, layered and is actually believable as an *** kicking, sword fighting, parkouring Assassin

Conversely

I don't care if the female lead is an average looking, cow herd moonlighting as an assassin as long as she is well written, well portrayed, layered and believable in terms of the physicality required to kick *** and do assassiny things.

Also regarding sexualisation and objectification of males vs females -

IMO they both have it as bad its just that the female version gets more flak because unfortunately this is a male dominated world and we've kinda been *******s to the fairer sex....otherwise, in all honesty...we are both equally hypersexualized

Once again, Holy Batman, I agree to every word of thee..

Eternal Reward
03-08-2013, 04:59 AM
People, you CAN relate to a protagonist of a different gender, play Tomb Raider you'll understand. You don't have to share the character's gender to share his/her struggles and emotion.

And about people saying a woman assassin would not fit, well there already ARE any female assassins in these games. How many of the recruits in ACB and ACR were female? Many. Also Dobbie Carter. Also Aveline. We just haven't seen them in lead roles, that's all. To those who are saying a female assassin fighting 20 men doesn't make sense, well so does a male however strong fighting 20 men. We should open our mind a little bit and embrace this idea: That a person of a different gender can be as interesting as a person from yours!

Blasphemy! BURN HIM! WWWIIIITTTTCCCCHHHH!!!!

Kirokill
03-08-2013, 05:06 AM
People, you CAN relate to a protagonist of a different gender, play Tomb Raider you'll understand. You don't have to share the character's gender to share his/her struggles and emotion.

And about people saying a woman assassin would not fit, well there already ARE any female assassins in these games. How many of the recruits in ACB and ACR were female? Many. Also Dobbie Carter. Also Aveline. We just haven't seen them in lead roles, that's all. To those who are saying a female assassin fighting 20 men doesn't make sense, well so does a male however strong fighting 20 men. We should open our mind a little bit and embrace this idea: That a person of a different gender can be as interesting as a person from yours!



Once again, Holy Batman, I agree to every word of thee..

I agree. Tomb Raider gave the woman her rights to be a woman, making her athletic and strong. Why do people see females as shame? I thought this was 1400 years ago. But they still see women as shame. Making a woman weak is wrong. It's like saying a woman can't drive a car wile men can because they listen to what their teacher says and woman doesn't! The most difference I knew between women and men is they lay using their phones WAAAAAAAY more than men.

pirate1802
03-08-2013, 05:18 AM
And frankly, since these games are about stealth, I'd imagine women would be better at it than men, since they have the weapon of seduction we lack :p Every man falls victim to it. Think WW2. Most of the allied spies working undercover were females. Because one would suspect a female less than a strong-looking male with weapons all over his body :rolleyes:

Kirokill
03-08-2013, 05:24 AM
The most strong man is the man who does not fall into the woman
Like when he is in a mission and sees a sexy woman he would NOT keep looking at her. Sign or strong
Or when a very beautiful woman asks him to do a crime so he can get her but he refuses as it's very bad. Such as killing. Sign of strong

Gi1t
03-08-2013, 05:41 AM
Physical attractiveness is irrelevant IMO

What bothers me most is how disproportionate is a character's in-game physical ability to his/her physicality.

It becomes an issue when the Male character is well muscled and athletic (Connor) and looks believable as the kind of person who would run cross country and then fight a battallion....but when it comes to female characters...they are designed with aesthetics over plausibility...most of them don't have athletic frames and seem incapable of the hard and gruelling acts of physical violence being represented on screen...this is what bugs me.

THAT IMO is objectionable and certainly reeks of catering to the LCD instead of investing actual time and effort in designing a believable lead.

I would like athletic and strong looking female leads....IDC about how hot they are or how pretty they look in a dress....they should be believable. If you have a believable and well written female character, IMO, you've created an engaging female protagonist.

Heck look at Jessica Chastain's "Maya" in ZDT....that is one badass chick....I absolutely loved watching her on screen. Her physical appearance had no bearing on the film and her portrayal and thats the way it should be - character development, dialogue and portrayal



I don't care if a the female lead is a sultry and exotic seductress as long as she is well written, well portrayed, layered and is actually believable as an *** kicking, sword fighting, parkouring Assassin

Conversely

I don't care if the female lead is an average looking, cow herd moonlighting as an assassin as long as she is well written, well portrayed, layered and believable in terms of the physicality required to kick *** and do assassiny things.

Also regarding sexualisation and objectification of males vs females -

IMO they both have it as bad its just that the female version gets more flak because unfortunately this is a male dominated world and we've kinda been *******s to the fairer sex....otherwise, in all honesty...we are both equally hypersexualized

Very true. :D

I think clothing is also an issue when it comes to practicality. One of the more laughable examples I've seen was in the first Lost Planet, where the lead female character is inexplicably comfortable in a v-neck snow suit on a planet so cold that dead bodies freeze solid before they even hit the ground....

Really guys? XD

In any case, one of the big mistakes people seem to make is making a female character for the sake of having one and giving her requisite roles they think they're supposed to give her and what they create is just a mishmash of various blatantly appealing characteristics that aren't blended together at all. They treat them more like a tool, making them do whatever they think the player wants to see. They need to learn to treat them like anyone else; develop them based on a character design and not just a list of goals.

You can't get too caught up in the details of depicting a female character in a fair way, because then you're not treating them like a character anymore. Having weaknesses, having characteristics that are appealing to males; those aren't inherently bad things. The problem is when you don't give them anything else and you treat them like a tool. If you really believe in the character you're creating and you make that believeable in your presentation, then people won't have a reason to complain.

Kirokill
03-08-2013, 06:00 AM
Very true. :D

I think clothing is also an issue when it comes to practicality. One of the more laughable examples I've seen was in the first Lost Planet, where the lead female character is inexplicably comfortable in a v-neck snow suit on a planet so cold that dead bodies freeze solid before they even hit the ground....

Really guys? XD

In any case, one of the big mistakes people seem to make is making a female character for the sake of having one and giving her requisite roles they think they're supposed to give her and what they create is just a mishmash of various blatantly appealing characteristics that aren't blended together at all. They treat them more like a tool, making them do whatever they think the player wants to see. They need to learn to treat them like anyone else; develop them based on a character design and not just a list of goals.

You can't get too caught up in the details of depicting a female character in a fair way, because then you're not treating them like a character anymore. Having weaknesses, having characteristics that are appealing to males; those aren't inherently bad things. The problem is when you don't give them anything else and you treat them like a tool. If you really believe in the character you're creating and you make that believeable in your presentation, then people won't have a reason to complain.

I think it's related to females are afraid from spiders. Thus letting them weak of everything. But they should relise not everyone is. And who gets trained should never.