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View Full Version : So I decided to play AC3 as a hardcore stealth game...



David2010549
01-31-2013, 01:01 AM
Since this series' inception I've read many complaints about how terrible its stealth mechanics are, and I've agreed to a certain extent, rarely seriously trying to play the games stealthily both because of their mechanical idiosyncrasies and simply because they don't give players many opportunities to experiment with all of their possibilities.

AC3 made strides in this department with new abilities and tools, but most importantly scenarios where stealthy play is optional, but encouraged and rewarded: the seven Forts. Brotherhood and Revelations had earlier versions of this concept, but AC3's Forts are far stronger I feel. Still, it was far too easy to simply massacre everyone in them to take them over, so I gave myself a challenge: I would take every Fort, while killing or incapacitating only the Captains and remaining completely unseen.

I've succeeded, and uploaded videos of every success here, along with comments: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJBVSEVpEwtPwL51tqC80rEpJTdQGNlmo

Along the way, I've experienced many more idiosyncrasies in the game's design, I've been frustrated and I've also been elated when something unexpected works perfectly or I find a new route around a seemingly impossible problem. There is a single non-Captain death at Fort Monmouth because of the powder reserve explosion (I made the effort to save all guards that might happen to be nearby any explosions to be as close as possible to a total pacifist), but I'm going to at least attempt to save him, and I'll post a new video if I succeed.

The Forts encapsulate what I want to see more of from future Assassin's Creed games, and I hope the community here enjoys watching them being played this way as much as I enjoyed playing them.

ToughGuy31
01-31-2013, 01:31 AM
Neat.

IronEagl3
01-31-2013, 04:16 AM
Ahhh, watching your videos makes me wanna replay AC3 just to redo the forts. The only ones I could really actually do legit stealth in were the Frontier ones. They were so much fun. The city ones were a bit harder.

Gi1t
01-31-2013, 06:18 AM
That's a VERY good way to give feedback on the game. :D

IWGCJoeCool
01-31-2013, 04:20 PM
nice....yes please, more Stealth and a premium on doing it, throw in some of the simplicity from AC1 too. the side stuff in AC2 and ACB are manageable and can be done in short bites of time. the business stuff in AC3 is a grind.

JC

Sushiglutton
01-31-2013, 05:21 PM
Ha I had the same plan (to play all forts totally stealthy), but when I tried to replay the game I fell asleep after two hours of walking and cutscenes, so I moved on to other games. I won't watch your vids though because I don't want to spoil any tactics if I do decide to go back later. Anywway nice work!

AjinkyaParuleka
01-31-2013, 06:24 PM
I wish we could replay the forts through DNA constraints :(.Nice work y0,Another Agent 47 in the making(without disguise).

lothario-da-be
01-31-2013, 06:42 PM
Nice! you are a very skilled player! I didn't managed to do any of the forts unseen and i'am a hardcore ac player.

David2010549
02-12-2013, 11:29 PM
I just put up a new video, probably the last I'll do. It's Fort Monmouth again, only this time with total pacifism (the Captain aside of course). There's some... interesting AI behavior in there too, behavior that I'd like an explanation of if anyone's able. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MOJYbn684_Y

RinoTheBouncer
02-12-2013, 11:35 PM
I'm probably the only one who didn't enter any Forts and just went linearly from start to end to see through the story, LOL. But Great job, my friend!

Free_Hidings
02-13-2013, 07:14 AM
I'm probably the only one who didn't enter any Forts and just went linearly from start to end to see through the story, LOL. But Great job, my friend!


I more or less did this on my first playthrough. 2nd playthrough I did almost everything (pretty much just naval missions and a few small side things to finish up now) and I have to say the overall experience is much more rewarding if you participate in everything the game has to offer. I missed so much on my first game.

Sushiglutton
02-13-2013, 12:24 PM
Amazing job :D! I will check these out more in detail later, but I took the liberty to link to this thread in the single player feedback thread (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/720979-Assassin-s-Creed-3-Single-Player-Gameplay-Feedback-DO-NOT-POST-SPOILERS/page171) as well as in my sig :).

David2010549
02-27-2013, 09:32 PM
Recently I've been taking on a new challenge that extends the perfect stealth requirements with a new one: take down every Captain using only empty hands. I used a single smoke bomb at Fort Duquesne, but that's the extent of my tool usage so far. I'm not sure whether Fort St-Mathieu is possible like this, but all the others are. This is pacifist stealth taken to its limit.

Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJBVSEVpEwtPNOQmiyQiSn6FFmdCP_nky

Wolf-kitten
02-27-2013, 09:38 PM
I loved doing the forts all stealthy-like too!
One fort in the frontier(forgot the name) in the northwest I could climb in a tree after stealth-killing the guards and neatly rope dart the commander from a strategic position. I felt so mighty then :p

Rugterwyper32
02-27-2013, 09:59 PM
Recently I've been taking on a new challenge that extends the perfect stealth requirements with a new one: take down every Captain using only empty hands. I used a single smoke bomb at Fort Duquesne, but that's the extent of my tool usage so far. I'm not sure whether Fort St-Mathieu is possible like this, but all the others are. This is pacifist stealth taken to its limit.

Playlist: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLJBVSEVpEwtPNOQmiyQiSn6FFmdCP_nky

Watching those videos reminds me of why the forts are my favorite parts of the game. You approach, get your objective and you're let loose. The design is great for either way you plan to do stuff, too. Honestly, I'd hope that Ubisoft takes note from this and realizes that this makes for some great mission design. Things like this are just perfect settings for assassinations. I enjoy cool setpieces, but when it comes to this series, it needs more of this.

DarkVictory23
02-27-2013, 10:06 PM
I attempted all the Forts (as well as Templar Dens and Districts in Revelations and Brotherhood) with stealth on my mind every time I went at them. I realized I could just execution streak my way through most of them (except the ones with coward captains), but trying to get in and out undetected was always fun to me.

I didn't however, usually go the pacfist route and would execute many a guard. I might have to try it in this pacificst way next time! I actually replayed II through Revelations just recently and started beating up the roof guards instead of killing them. Next time I play through, I might try to play the entire set of games killing nobody I don't have to...

Epsilonyx
03-07-2013, 06:02 AM
I love doing this as well, and its interesting watching how someone else completes the objective, for instance in Duquesne I actually waited for the Captain to walk down that hill and then stabbed him, and threw a smoke bomb at the guard up by the flagpole so I could take it down

David2010549
04-26-2013, 03:01 AM
It's been some time since I last put up a video, and even longer since I last posted in this thread, but I'm back with one more stealthy Fort video that I plan to turn into a series. This time, I'll kill every single enemy inside the walls of each Fort, saving the Captains for last. All with as little tool use as possible and while remaining unseen of course. The first episode is Fort Washington. Watch here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6EQqlfUBU

Sushiglutton
04-26-2013, 01:01 PM
It's been some time since I last put up a video, and even longer since I last posted in this thread, but I'm back with one more stealthy Fort video that I plan to turn into a series. This time, I'll kill every single enemy inside the walls of each Fort, saving the Captains for last. All with as little tool use as possible and while remaining unseen of course. The first episode is Fort Washington. Watch here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cZ6EQqlfUBU

I like these :). @1:39 how do you know the guards will be turning? Doesn't make any sense to me. Is it just trial and error?

MadJC1986
04-26-2013, 01:09 PM
I like these :). @1:39 how do you know the guards will be turning? Doesn't make any sense to me. Is it just trial and error?

Actually it looks like he studied the behaviour of all the guards.

Sushiglutton
04-26-2013, 05:25 PM
Actually it looks like he studied the behaviour of all the guards.

I get that impression too. Obv nothing wrong with that, but it means the AI is very random and you have to use trial and error to know which guards will turn and which won't. Just curious if this is the case.

Assassin_M
04-26-2013, 05:28 PM
I get that impression too. Obv nothing wrong with that, but it means the AI is very random and you have to use trial and error to know which guards will turn and which won't. Just curious if this is the case.
he killed a guy and the other 2 go to investigate...what`s random ? this behavior`s been there since AC I i think...

OP, awesome vids

Sushiglutton
04-26-2013, 05:35 PM
he killed a guy and the other 2 go to investigate...what`s random ? this behavior`s been there since AC I i think...

OP, awesome vids

They are standing still with their backs towards the victims. Why made them turn around? It can't be sound because then they would have done it immidiately. But suddenly they just turn. Looks weird.

Assassin_M
04-26-2013, 05:38 PM
They are standing still with their backs towards the victims. Why made them turn around? It can't be sound because then they would have done it immidiately. But suddenly they just turn. Looks weird.
sure it looks weird, but like I said...it`s been there since AC I...guards with their backs turned would automatically go investigate, because it probably doesn't have just a frontal line of sight for this...

Sushiglutton
04-26-2013, 05:41 PM
sure it looks weird, but like I said...it`s been there since AC I...guards with their backs turned would automatically go investigate, because it probably doesn't have just a frontal line of sight for this...

Oh, I guess I should have noticed that lol :o. Probably something they should change as it feels like kind of a random rule and hard for the player to predict. Five games is clearly not enough for some players to pick up on this...

Assassin_M
04-26-2013, 05:42 PM
Oh, I guess I should have noticed that lol :o. Probably something they should change as it feels like kind of a random rule and hard for the player to predict. Five games is clearly not enough for players to pick up on this...
I agree...or at least have them look behind first and gasp or something instead of spontaneously just going to the crime scene..

David2010549
04-26-2013, 09:22 PM
I agree that the investigation behavior is poorly implemented. As you guys say, enemies are able to detect corpses that aren't in their current line of sight (it's possible that them hearing the body fall is the intended metaphor, but seeing as the behavior is always triggered after the body goes into a ragdoll state, which is after it has fallen, as well as the incredible distances from which a corpse can be detected, it's a failed metaphor), instead it seems that they detect them based on a model of their possible line of sight. In other words, as long as there isn't something that would block an enemy's view of the corpse if they were to look at it, they'll know it's there even without actually looking at it. This is the best explanation I can come up with for this counterintuitive behavior.

In any case, it caused a lot of problems for me in this particular video. For example, the two I kill at 0:57 cause the first guard in the double assassination at 1:03 (just that one, not the one next to him!) to investigate, meaning I have to get to him as quickly as possible. Even weirder, if just the first of the two at 0:57 is killed, the second will investigate, and the one from 1:03 doesn't at all, implying at the very least there are additional variables in the whole corpse detection scheme. The four kill sequence starting at 2:12 is also so difficult because of this strange behavior; a moment's hesitation there means failure.

I often wonder whether idiosyncrasies like this in the game, and this series in general, are the results of overambitious design (as in it's impossible to find better solutions with the development team's current resources or even any amount of resources), outright incompetence or unwillingness to find better solutions. It's easy to say that the last possibility is the answer, that because a simple but visually spectacular game of "Simon says" combat is more marketable all the disparate elements that make up "stealth" gameplay get less attention from the developers, but the fact that these systems exist at all and the incredible amount of talent involved in the making of these games imply otherwise. I'd dearly love to get an inside look at how these games are made, their design documents alone must be mind boggling. In the end, I'm left frustrated over the untapped potential of what I feel could be a world-beating action stealth game, and yet I enjoy it a great deal for what it is.

Sushiglutton
04-26-2013, 10:28 PM
Quoted your post in the feedback thread because I feel this is real important stuff (here (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/720979-Assassin-s-Creed-3-Single-Player-Gameplay-Feedback-DO-NOT-POST-SPOILERS/page182)). I really admire the work you have put into this :). Like you said it's strange the developers have left the stealth so broken for so long. It feels amateurish. Thing is this is an issue for casuals as much as hardcore gamers. It just results in people giving up on the stealth and that may be one reasons (a bad one) why Ubi is focusing more and more on action.

Maybe they have a plan to rebuild the AI for next gen? By doing it now they would have to redo a lot of work a year from now anyway. I dunno, best explanation I can think of. I mean they must have the resources to hire anyone in the industry they want to, so it can't be lack of competence.

SixKeys
04-26-2013, 10:50 PM
I agree that the investigation behavior is poorly implemented. As you guys say, enemies are able to detect corpses that aren't in their current line of sight (it's possible that them hearing the body fall is the intended metaphor, but seeing as the behavior is always triggered after the body goes into a ragdoll state, which is after it has fallen, as well as the incredible distances from which a corpse can be detected, it's a failed metaphor), instead it seems that they detect them based on a model of their possible line of sight. In other words, as long as there isn't something that would block an enemy's view of the corpse if they were to look at it, they'll know it's there even without actually looking at it. This is the best explanation I can come up with for this counterintuitive behavior.

In any case, it caused a lot of problems for me in this particular video. For example, the two I kill at 0:57 cause the first guard in the double assassination at 1:03 (just that one, not the one next to him!) to investigate, meaning I have to get to him as quickly as possible. Even weirder, if just the first of the two at 0:57 is killed, the second will investigate, and the one from 1:03 doesn't at all, implying at the very least there are additional variables in the whole corpse detection scheme. The four kill sequence starting at 2:12 is also so difficult because of this strange behavior; a moment's hesitation there means failure.

I often wonder whether idiosyncrasies like this in the game, and this series in general, are the results of overambitious design (as in it's impossible to find better solutions with the development team's current resources or even any amount of resources), outright incompetence or unwillingness to find better solutions. It's easy to say that the last possibility is the answer, that because a simple but visually spectacular game of "Simon says" combat is more marketable all the disparate elements that make up "stealth" gameplay get less attention from the developers, but the fact that these systems exist at all and the incredible amount of talent involved in the making of these games imply otherwise. I'd dearly love to get an inside look at how these games are made, their design documents alone must be mind boggling. In the end, I'm left frustrated over the untapped potential of what I feel could be a world-beating action stealth game, and yet I enjoy it a great deal for what it is.

This is a great post and I agree it needs to be in the feedback thread. You're pointing out flaws through meticulous investigation. At least now I know for sure it's not just me doing something wrong because I get detected every time, there are some really strange things going on with the AI.

Sushiglutton
04-26-2013, 10:56 PM
This is a great post and I agree it needs to be in the feedback thread. You're pointing out flaws through meticulous investigation. At least now I know for sure it's not just me doing something wrong because I get detected every time, there are some really strange things going on with the AI.

Feel the same. Like you I have had the gut-feeling that stealth is random and unfair. It's hard to pin-point exactly what it is. These are some very clear examples that woodebeam has pointed out imo. It's impossible for the player to realize which/when guards will turn to investigate without trial and error. That is simply broken AI imo. I took the liberty to quote him in the feedback thread ;).

Assassin_M
04-26-2013, 11:09 PM
I agree that the investigation behavior is poorly implemented. As you guys say, enemies are able to detect corpses that aren't in their current line of sight (it's possible that them hearing the body fall is the intended metaphor, but seeing as the behavior is always triggered after the body goes into a ragdoll state, which is after it has fallen, as well as the incredible distances from which a corpse can be detected, it's a failed metaphor), instead it seems that they detect them based on a model of their possible line of sight. In other words, as long as there isn't something that would block an enemy's view of the corpse if they were to look at it, they'll know it's there even without actually looking at it. This is the best explanation I can come up with for this counterintuitive behavior.

In any case, it caused a lot of problems for me in this particular video. For example, the two I kill at 0:57 cause the first guard in the double assassination at 1:03 (just that one, not the one next to him!) to investigate, meaning I have to get to him as quickly as possible. Even weirder, if just the first of the two at 0:57 is killed, the second will investigate, and the one from 1:03 doesn't at all, implying at the very least there are additional variables in the whole corpse detection scheme. The four kill sequence starting at 2:12 is also so difficult because of this strange behavior; a moment's hesitation there means failure.

I often wonder whether idiosyncrasies like this in the game, and this series in general, are the results of overambitious design (as in it's impossible to find better solutions with the development team's current resources or even any amount of resources), outright incompetence or unwillingness to find better solutions. It's easy to say that the last possibility is the answer, that because a simple but visually spectacular game of "Simon says" combat is more marketable all the disparate elements that make up "stealth" gameplay get less attention from the developers, but the fact that these systems exist at all and the incredible amount of talent involved in the making of these games imply otherwise. I'd dearly love to get an inside look at how these games are made, their design documents alone must be mind boggling. In the end, I'm left frustrated over the untapped potential of what I feel could be a world-beating action stealth game, and yet I enjoy it a great deal for what it is.
Great analyzing. we need more guys like you. people who actually investigate problems and present solutions, not bash and whine with a single lined post..

SixKeys
04-26-2013, 11:14 PM
Great analyzing. we need more guys like you. people who actually investigate problems and present solutions, not bash and whine with a single lined post..

You're the one who's played each game over a hundred times, maybe you should step up to the task. ;)

Assassin_M
04-26-2013, 11:36 PM
You're the one who's played each game over a hundred times, maybe you should step up to the task. ;)
That`s not such a bad idea actually...maybe i`ll even make it in videos :|

I`ll bash AC II all day

WarriorAegis
04-26-2013, 11:36 PM
Awesome!

I wonder if you can do stuff like this in AC2 or Brotherhood.

Assassin_M
04-26-2013, 11:55 PM
Awesome!

I wonder if you can do stuff like this in AC2 or Brotherhood.
You can, but it`s A LOT easier in ACB and AC II, although some of the Borgia towers only have one solution which is open combat...

ACB and AC II had a pretty stupid AI...as in...you can walk behind him all day and he wont notice. AC III has ridiculous AI...as in....effing psychic...they need to find the right balance

David2010549
04-29-2013, 08:32 PM
New Silent Extermination: Fort Hill. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhBqbbCCitc&feature=youtu.be

This is the least challenging of all the Forts, but it's still fun to play this way.

Sushiglutton
04-29-2013, 09:18 PM
Haha well played sir, loved then ending :D!

Edit: btw, your Arkham vids are sick lol. Like this one:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-0PsB95y3yg

That backward somersault :cool:!

David2010549
04-29-2013, 10:15 PM
Arkham Origins and Black Flag are coming out within a week of each other. If both live up to their potential, I'm going to be drowning in excellence this fall. God help me if Dark Souls II arrives at the same time. And then there are the things that are as of yet unannounced...

Soulid_Snake
04-29-2013, 10:31 PM
You can, but it`s A LOT easier in ACB and AC II, although some of the Borgia towers only have one solution which is open combat...

ACB and AC II had a pretty stupid AI...as in...you can walk behind him all day and he wont notice. AC III has ridiculous AI...as in....effing psychic...they need to find the right balance

You can even rush enemies, which is what I do, sprint up behind them and stab them, and this is during missions where you can't be detected. Even the suspicion phase lasts for too long, during the stealth missions. The post AC3 games aren't really stealthy anymore, I don't think, it's reflected in how they market the game, as a action one sadly.

David2010549
05-09-2013, 09:39 PM
Fort Independence is done... mostly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vauBv1TlG4U

Very difficult. For reasons I explain in my continued comments I wasn't able to kill the Captain last as part of a full run this time. It is possible though, and I include my strategy as a demo segment. The other big problem is that killing the Captain last seems to necessitate the use of a tool at least once. If anyone can find a way to kill the Captain last while avoiding tool use entirely this Fort can be truly perfected. Go for it.

Sushiglutton
05-10-2013, 12:18 PM
Fort Independence is done... mostly: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vauBv1TlG4U

Very difficult. For reasons I explain in my continued comments I wasn't able to kill the Captain last as part of a full run this time. It is possible though, and I include my strategy as a demo segment. The other big problem is that killing the Captain last seems to necessitate the use of a tool at least once. If anyone can find a way to kill the Captain last while avoiding tool use entirely this Fort can be truly perfected. Go for it.

Really excellent work as always :D! I hope the devs watches these vids and read your analysis because it points at significant AI flaws that really need to be fixed for the enjoyment of everyone, not just for fantastic players like you. Does Ubi hire playtesters or something like that? Given your record on both AC and the Arkham games I think you have to be one of the best playtesters they could possibly find.

Also you should be promoted to Watch Expert because you post some amazing stuff!!!

pacmanate
05-10-2013, 12:25 PM
Your videos make me want to play AC3 again. But I won't because it sucks. But still, love your videos! I hope future AC games are actually designed for stealth though. I can see myself getting very annoyed with the AI in this.

Sushiglutton
05-10-2013, 12:28 PM
Your videos make me want to play AC3 again. But I won't because it sucks. But still, love your videos! I hope future AC games are actually designed for stealth though. I can see myself getting very annoyed with the AI in this.

Besides being enjoyable to watch I love how Woodbeam in detail specifies (with time stamps) AI flaws. Like I said I really, really hope the devs are paying attention, because this is a goldmine.

David2010549
06-06-2013, 12:14 AM
Fort St-Mathieu Silent Extermination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W61pq_1kPC4

Some really cool maneuvers and techniques in this one, including a use of the obscure but useful ability to crouch while standing still. Yes, you can actually do that, and it actually does work the way you think it would. I've got another video in the works as well, not another Silent Extermination (though I'm thinking about my next one of those too), but one I think some people here will really appreciate.

The latest Uplay update broke the ability to use the Steam overlay with the game, does anyone have a fix?

Also, Sushiglutton, I should have said this earlier, but thanks for posting my stuff in the feedback thread. I hope someone finds it useful, and putting it there myself would be awkward.

Jack-Reacher
06-06-2013, 04:03 AM
Nice job on this series, reminds me of when I used to make vids of the Borgia towers and Templar Dens. I gave this one a go as well for the forts but I found the AI to be way too buggy... still I might give this a go myself sometime in the future.

David2010549
06-09-2013, 01:51 AM
This is my new video: A Complete Guide to Fort AI Mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POuIUCyeqa8

It's my attempt at a definitive document for AC3's AI systems in "stealth" paradigms. This should hopefully clarify for many exactly how they work, and set a stronger foundation for criticism of the game and the series in general going forward. Be sure to read my continued comments that are linked in the video's description; they explain the contents of the video more fully and describe mechanics that aren't in the video itself. I'm considering starting a new thread for this specific video, since it's more general in its topic and would appeal to many people on this forum. Let me know if you think that's a good idea.

I'm still looking for a way to make the Steam overlay work with the new Uplay, by the way. Any help would be appreciated.

Sushiglutton
06-09-2013, 12:28 PM
Fort St-Mathieu Silent Extermination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W61pq_1kPC4

Some really cool maneuvers and techniques in this one, including a use of the obscure but useful ability to crouch while standing still. Yes, you can actually do that, and it actually does work the way you think it would. I've got another video in the works as well, not another Silent Extermination (though I'm thinking about my next one of those too), but one I think some people here will really appreciate.

The latest Uplay update broke the ability to use the Steam overlay with the game, does anyone have a fix?

Also, Sushiglutton, I should have said this earlier, but thanks for posting my stuff in the feedback thread. I hope someone finds it useful, and putting it there myself would be awkward.

Thanks for the kind words :)! I really appreciate the work you put in to really break down the stealth system and specifically point out the things that can be improved. Writing summaries of your findings in the feedback thread is the least I can do! Fingers crossed someone reads it and tries to address the problems! I wrote a summary of this vid in the feedback thread here (http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/720979-Assassin-s-Creed-3-Single-Player-Gameplay-Feedback-DO-NOT-POST-SPOILERS?p=9108730#post9108730). Please check to see if it's ok! I will now work on your next vid and write a short summary of that one as well!

Sushiglutton
06-09-2013, 12:53 PM
This is my new video: A Complete Guide to Fort AI Mechanics. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=POuIUCyeqa8

It's my attempt at a definitive document for AC3's AI systems in "stealth" paradigms. This should hopefully clarify for many exactly how they work, and set a stronger foundation for criticism of the game and the series in general going forward. Be sure to read my continued comments that are linked in the video's description; they explain the contents of the video more fully and describe mechanics that aren't in the video itself. I'm considering starting a new thread for this specific video, since it's more general in its topic and would appeal to many people on this forum. Let me know if you think that's a good idea.

I'm still looking for a way to make the Steam overlay work with the new Uplay, by the way. Any help would be appreciated.

I have witten a summary of this one as well :). Just let me know if I have missunderstood something, or missed some important point and I will update it. Starting a thread based on this vid sounds like a good idea to me. Like you said it's more general than the others.

Have I understood correctly that gate-guards are more sensitive to high profile running than regular guards? Is this the reason some guards in New York insta detect you when you just run past them?

I just tested AC3 on Steam and the overlay worked perfectly for me (everything is up to date). Could it be some bug at your end?

shobhit7777777
06-09-2013, 01:09 PM
This thread is validates everything I've said about the franchise in terms of the gameplay

I want to thank all the contributors....fantastic videos and analyses

Assassin's Creed's mechanics - Freerunning, Social Stealth, Combat, Complex geometrical environments lend themselves to fantastic sandbox gameplay...and inherently some awesome stealth gameplay

The Forts, the Borgia towers and the Assassin's Den's shed light on the above aspect - You have a large sandbox, a vaired toolset and several mechanics that allow you to tackle the mission in several ways.

This game will be at its best,most creative fun when the player is dropped in a large area and then given one objective....with the approach left to him/her. The permissive sandbox allows the game to shine...and the videos here are evidence of it.
Such gameplay oppurtunities not only offer the player creative ways to forge a playstyle but also form meta-narratives - replayability is ramped up.

This is why the franchise's recent focus on things like:

- Economy
- RPG cliches like sidequests etc.
- Intrusive narrative
- BS forced desyncs - stay in a narrow area, scripted encounters, unimaginative mission scenarios
- Overly ridiciluous mission requirements
- Tangential game features - Pirate ships

Is not helping the series progress at all

The AI....arguably the MOST important feature in a game like AC (which supports so many varied playstyles) is neglected

- Non LOS based detection of corpses
- Implausible reactions
- Poor investigation routines
- Archaic aspects like detecting a player not on LOS but on the distance and closing in on the last known like drones....sapping the fun out of evasive running
- Artificial attempts to create difficulty - populating the city with more guards instead of smarter guards
- Ridiculous sight and sound detection thresholds

The AI needs massive improvement if the sneaking, fighting and running in the game are to be more meaningful

This is just the tip of the iceberg we are touching upon

The game also needs a crouching ability..based on the videos alone..I have never been more convinced.
More player character abilities to interact with the environment
More intelligence in the Crowd and the enemy NPCs
Deeper features tying into the concept of an 'Assassin's' Guild instead of tertiary systems


I cannot stress enough how important the above is to me...and thank the OP and the other video contributors for coming up with solid feedback videos...which are also extremely entertaining to watch.

Can I request you guys to make a similar series where you take out the Assassin Dens in ACR?

Sushiglutton
06-09-2013, 05:47 PM
Very good post Shobbit! I fully agree that the franchise has the potential to be a fantastic and unique stealth sandbox game. The unique settings, climbing mechanics, stylish animations, living world really are something special. BUT the game must get the fundamentals right first, and nothing is more fundamental to stealth than the AI. The second most important aspect is the possibilities no navigate and take advantage of the enviroment. A robust cover mechanic is one of the most basic features to achieve this.

Really, really hope to hear some good news about stealth improvements next week :)!

David2010549
06-09-2013, 10:18 PM
I've made a thread specifically for the newest video: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/774486-Assassin-s-Creed-III-A-Complete-Guide-to-Fort-AI-Mechanics

Sushiglutton, thanks again for making those summaries. They're great. Just one thing: in the Fort St-Mathieu Silent Extermination one, you describe high profile assassinations causing detection inconsistently. I believe there is a consistent mechanic behind it, just, again, an obscure and counterintuitive one. What happens is that guards are automatically alerted within a certain distance, regardless of their prior state. At 2:19 no one's close enough. I'm not 100% sure of this, and finding its exact limits would be a huge chore if it's possible at all.

I also believe you're right about the instant detection in New York. Another funny detail: not every gate is like that, they seem to all have been designed individually. Auto gate detection is also unrelated to the few gate guards who cause "high alert" when they see you and then lose you. It's all very weird.

Did you buy the game through Steam? I own the disc version and play it through a Steam shortcut, which might explain the difference.

Shobbit, that was wonderful. I agree with all of your points, broadly speaking. The one thing I would point out is your request for a crouch ability. If you mean simply adding a highly mobile crouch walk, I absolutely agree, though with this game's present AI mechanics it would be more of a cosmetic function than anything (seeing as guards are effectively "deaf" and any sort of "sound based" detection system would require a massive overhaul of AI systems) and I question how it could integrate smoothly with the ability to climb any surface, but even the suggestion that you're "moving quickly but silently" would draw attention away from the truth of guard deafness and create a better experience for players. I'm imagining something like the contextual animation systems in the Uncharted series, where your character will appear to move differently to "stay stealthy" when enemies are near and unaware, but your movement speed is the same as usual. To be clear, I don't think this is an ideal solution, and that massive overhaul I mentioned will very likely happen at some point. However, if you're looking for an ability that lets you get low behind objects while staying still, check out my Fort St-Mathieu Silent Extermination video just a few posts above.

As for doing similar videos in ACR's Dens, I did experiment with that back when that game was new, and found it frustrating. The Dens, from what I can remember, are far less diverse than AC3's Forts (though more numerous), and stealth in them relies heavily on the use of bombs (sometimes absolutely forcing you to use them, in the case of gunner roosts) rather than clever navigation which is the core of this series' gameplay and its most brilliant element in my opinion. I try to minimize tool use in my AC3 videos because that's the most interesting way to play for me, and ACR in disallowing that was less interesting. I didn't spend a great deal of time experimenting because of that though, I might go back and see if I misjudged.

Saqaliba
06-10-2013, 12:05 AM
Ok. I figured out away to be completely undetected in an Fort at all times, but it will only work in New York and Boston.

First you need to aquire the Recruit abilitie of Covert Escort.

Then you need to blend with a crowd. But it must not be a contextual crowd like the animated ones where Connor will sit down or pretend to be apart of a scenario.

Whilst blended with a non scenario group of people indicated by his stealth circle above his head call on Covert Escort.

By doing so the social stealth of blending is applied to the Covert Escort and it even lets you be anonymous in level 3 Notoriety.

For some glitch reason when you get into battles. This stealth will remain whereby the AI enemies ALWAYS assume you are nothing more than a civilian, even when you attack and kill them.

Now. When you apply this to the Forts, you can basically walk into them in God Mode and own their colonial booty.

Saqaliba
06-10-2013, 12:11 AM
P.S. The best crowds to do this with is probably the angry mobs. The best way to draw a crowd is to toss money and bring them to you. You can even do this from a roof top. Toss coins then jump down to where they are amd then when blend kicks in call covert escort.

shobhit7777777
06-10-2013, 09:42 AM
Very good post Shobbit! I fully agree that the franchise has the potential to be a fantastic and unique stealth sandbox game. The unique settings, climbing mechanics, stylish animations, living world really are something special. BUT the game must get the fundamentals right first, and nothing is more fundamental to stealth than the AI. The second most important aspect is the possibilities no navigate and take advantage of the enviroment. A robust cover mechanic is one of the most basic features to achieve this.

Really, really hope to hear some good news about stealth improvements next week :)!

I hope the AI gets sorted in BF



Shobbit, that was wonderful. I agree with all of your points, broadly speaking. The one thing I would point out is your request for a crouch ability. If you mean simply adding a highly mobile crouch walk, I absolutely agree, though with this game's present AI mechanics it would be more of a cosmetic function than anything


True....current AI detection and investigation parameters would make crouch more of a cosmetic function. But the main reason why I ask for its inclusion is that crouching allows us more options to hide behind level geometry. I noticed in your videos that there were several instances where a crouching ability would open up more areas for traversal as you could use more of the world objects to hide behind and maintain your stealth.


I question how it could integrate smoothly with the ability to climb any surface, but even the suggestion that you're "moving quickly but silently" would draw attention away from the truth of guard deafness and create a better experience for players. I'm imagining something like the contextual animation systems in the Uncharted series, where your character will appear to move differently to "stay stealthy" when enemies are near and unaware, but your movement speed is the same as usual. To be clear, I don't think this is an ideal solution, and that massive overhaul I mentioned will very likely happen at some point. However, if you're looking for an ability that lets you get low behind objects while staying still, check out my Fort St-Mathieu Silent Extermination video just a few posts above.

The way I see it is that proper sound detection is not within the game's scope....AC is not a purely stealth game

That said

The current deafness plaguing the guards does indeed hamper a stealth experience

I think the series can find a solid middle ground between plausibility and fun to provide a challenging, believable sneaking experience.

I completely agree that a crouching, sneaking animation would only enhance the experience, I don't believe that a massive overhaul is in the future. What I can request the devs is that Guard's are more sensitive to sound than they already are

This is how envision it functioning:

1. Crouch running would eliminate all sound of movement - on ground or the rooftops
2. Guards would be sensitive to the sound of running on the ground and the rooftop...much as they are now but tweaked to a greater range, the rooftop running however would only elicit a "huh" and a pause instead of a full blown investigation - if on high alert...the guard climbs up
3. The actual detection will not be binary - in AC3 if a guard is alerted a second before being killed you get desynced on forced stealth missions....instead the player should be able to silence that guard (ACIII's running tomahawk and blade kills are fantastic) and maintain stealth. I stress upon this because such an addition allows the player to sprint and kill.....giving the player the added choice of playing a super fast predator and also giving players the option to take it more slowly with a crouch option

IMO, with slight tweaks and additions the sneaking experience can be considerably improved

As for the crouching in your video - is the high profile jump held down methdo?


As for doing similar videos in ACR's Dens, I did experiment with that back when that game was new, and found it frustrating. The Dens, from what I can remember, are far less diverse than AC3's Forts (though more numerous), and stealth in them relies heavily on the use of bombs (sometimes absolutely forcing you to use them, in the case of gunner roosts) rather than clever navigation which is the core of this series' gameplay and its most brilliant element in my opinion. I try to minimize tool use in my AC3 videos because that's the most interesting way to play for me, and ACR in disallowing that was less interesting. I didn't spend a great deal of time experimenting because of that though, I might go back and see if I misjudged.

I am of a slightly different opinion

The large amount of tools at your disposal - bombs, recruits, crowds, dense architecture, poison darts, blades, crossbow etc. allowed the player to experiment a lot in terms of tactical approaches. While I can understand the over-reliance on gadgets, the game offered a lot of tactical options

I feel that 0 reliance on tools is a fantastic showcase of player skill, experience and comprehension of the game mechanics, however, using gadgets and abilities together IMO is a showcase of experimentation and creative freedom in a game

The Dens were so designed that they offered everything on the Assassin menu - Dense urban architecture (I was able to find clever ways to circumvent guards and patrols and direct entire fights using my recruits from the rooftops), A crowd of NPCs allowing a lot of social stealth experimentation and oppurtunities, Bombs being used to create fights and distractions...or used as lethal traps

Each den's Captain, thanks to the bombs could be killed in a variety of different ways - from trapping to luring. In short the mechanics meshed real well within the design.

I think you should embrace the reliance on tools and abilities and give it another shot :)
It would be simply awesome to see you tackle the dens using creative new ways of deploying bombs, recruits and good old social stealth

David2010549
06-10-2013, 08:14 PM
I completely agree that a crouching, sneaking animation would only enhance the experience, I don't believe that a massive overhaul is in the future. What I can request the devs is that Guard's are more sensitive to sound than they already are

This is how envision it functioning:

1. Crouch running would eliminate all sound of movement - on ground or the rooftops
2. Guards would be sensitive to the sound of running on the ground and the rooftop...much as they are now but tweaked to a greater range, the rooftop running however would only elicit a "huh" and a pause instead of a full blown investigation - if on high alert...the guard climbs up
3. The actual detection will not be binary - in AC3 if a guard is alerted a second before being killed you get desynced on forced stealth missions....instead the player should be able to silence that guard (ACIII's running tomahawk and blade kills are fantastic) and maintain stealth. I stress upon this because such an addition allows the player to sprint and kill.....giving the player the added choice of playing a super fast predator and also giving players the option to take it more slowly with a crouch option

IMO, with slight tweaks and additions the sneaking experience can be considerably improved

As for the crouching in your video - is the high profile jump held down methdo?

To me, what you're suggesting sounds like a "massive overhaul," but that's just a matter of semantics; we agree where it really counts. The crouch in that video is using that method, yes. What you said about ACR sounds interesting. I don't know when I'll be able, but I'd like to take another look at it.

David2010549
06-21-2013, 12:39 PM
New video - another pair of Silent Exterminations at Fort Washington, but with no corpses found. I had to have a smidge more tool use to make it happen, but I'm more than okay with that since it every kill is still performed with the Hidden Blades. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OdleO1QW4_o

luckyto
06-21-2013, 06:32 PM
Excellent! Nice vids :)

David2010549
06-26-2013, 12:13 AM
The next Silent Extermination, and another with zero corpses found. Fort Duquesne. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knXg7z6B1-E

I've got a strategy for a no corpses found run of Fort Independence as well, but there's a catch: it requires the use of two Smoke Bombs, or a Poison Dart and a Smoke Bomb. Does anyone want to see it anyway? Let me know.

Assassin_M
06-26-2013, 12:22 AM
The next Silent Extermination, and another with zero corpses found. Fort Duquesne. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knXg7z6B1-E

I've got a strategy for a no corpses found run of Fort Independence as well, but there's a catch: it requires the use of two Smoke Bombs, or a Poison Dart and a Smoke Bomb. Does anyone want to see it anyway? Let me know.
i`d like to see the smoke bomb..it`s criminally underused.

David2010549
07-05-2013, 11:26 PM
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxuXkSUsG7E

Quite a few bits of interest in this video, beyond the usual stealth performance. Some AI quirks, slick maneuvering, and, well, that ending.

AC2_alex
07-06-2013, 06:24 AM
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxuXkSUsG7E

Quite a few bits of interest in this video, beyond the usual stealth performance. Some AI quirks, slick maneuvering, and, well, that ending.

I love it when people master these things and have it down to a science. Awesome.

Sushiglutton
07-06-2013, 07:06 PM
Here it is: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pxuXkSUsG7E

Quite a few bits of interest in this video, beyond the usual stealth performance. Some AI quirks, slick maneuvering, and, well, that ending.

Excellent as always, very nerdy, love it :D!

There is some trophy that requires couriers. Some players thought they were too rare so Ubi released a patch which increased how common they are. Now they are freaking everywhere and there seem to always be one of them in each fort (which makes absolutely no sense) running around like a headless chicken. One of the reasons I stopped playing the forts :|.

David2010549
07-19-2013, 06:44 PM
Fort St-Mathieu Revisited, no corpses found this time. It's a doozy. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g5KQVn0CRmo

David2010549
07-29-2013, 07:08 PM
Fort Division Silent Extermination http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dkdx4g9pToc

There's a lot to talk about with this particular one, I hope people read my continued comments to see why I feel so strongly about it. It's the only time in this entire series I've encountered elements that I believe are truly broken, and that could make for interesting discussion. The next video will be the last.

David2010549
09-11-2013, 02:09 AM
Fort Monmouth SIlent Extermination: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmPcpT5ysNI

This is the final video, but I'm considering making a new thread that compiles all of my AC3 stuff since this one is dead.