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View Full Version : Muzzle Flashes, Again...



AG104
07-25-2004, 07:23 AM
I've been enjoying IL-2 so much, i actually didn't have that high of expectations for PF. I'm sure you can all agree with me on that-as long as we got Carriers, bullets that can hurt ships, and kamikaze's, we'll all be happy!

Anyway, here is my point...i did kinda have one huge expectation/hope for this game, and it is failing short (never know-they have time still...) and that is the muzzle flashes. I recently stopped by 3dgamers.com and saw some new screens of Pacific Fighters-that picture of the Zero firing all 4 guns really made me dissapointed. I thought we made a big enough discussion about it in the Il-2 Forums, but i guess that those people just didn't read it.

I major in military history at the University of Michigan, have read numerous WWII books, interviewed veteran pilots and gunners, watched footage (color and b&w), and if that is not enough, i recently got back from a firing range where i saw a .30 calibre Browning 1919 Machine Gun Fire 300 rounds, live fire, tracers 1 in 10. Where i am getting at is THAT MUZZLE FLASHES, BE THERE A LOT OR NONE AT ALL, DO NOT LOOK LIKE THEY DO IN IL2 OR PACIFIC FIGHTERS! End of discussion for me. Now the thing is, is that i thought by all the talk, and by general research, the developers would have said to themselves, "Gee-our muzzle flashes sure don't look realistic...what should we do?" But again, that was left short.

Just on the subject, i think a very nifty feature in the game would be to allow players to customize their tracer counts/ammunition type for their plane. Speaking with gunners and pilots who fought in WWII, they all said that was a very important part of combat when it came to that.

Okay, i'm finished, thanks for reading, and to be honest, i don't care about any arguments to this topic; i would only truely be interested in seeing how many people actually know these facts. See ya around sim'freaks!

"My R & R thus ended abruptly, and I headed back to what had by then become, for me, the real world."
George Wilson

[This message was edited by AG104 on Sun July 25 2004 at 08:12 AM.]

[This message was edited by AG104 on Sun July 25 2004 at 08:13 AM.]

AG104
07-25-2004, 07:23 AM
I've been enjoying IL-2 so much, i actually didn't have that high of expectations for PF. I'm sure you can all agree with me on that-as long as we got Carriers, bullets that can hurt ships, and kamikaze's, we'll all be happy!

Anyway, here is my point...i did kinda have one huge expectation/hope for this game, and it is failing short (never know-they have time still...) and that is the muzzle flashes. I recently stopped by 3dgamers.com and saw some new screens of Pacific Fighters-that picture of the Zero firing all 4 guns really made me dissapointed. I thought we made a big enough discussion about it in the Il-2 Forums, but i guess that those people just didn't read it.

I major in military history at the University of Michigan, have read numerous WWII books, interviewed veteran pilots and gunners, watched footage (color and b&w), and if that is not enough, i recently got back from a firing range where i saw a .30 calibre Browning 1919 Machine Gun Fire 300 rounds, live fire, tracers 1 in 10. Where i am getting at is THAT MUZZLE FLASHES, BE THERE A LOT OR NONE AT ALL, DO NOT LOOK LIKE THEY DO IN IL2 OR PACIFIC FIGHTERS! End of discussion for me. Now the thing is, is that i thought by all the talk, and by general research, the developers would have said to themselves, "Gee-our muzzle flashes sure don't look realistic...what should we do?" But again, that was left short.

Just on the subject, i think a very nifty feature in the game would be to allow players to customize their tracer counts/ammunition type for their plane. Speaking with gunners and pilots who fought in WWII, they all said that was a very important part of combat when it came to that.

Okay, i'm finished, thanks for reading, and to be honest, i don't care about any arguments to this topic; i would only truely be interested in seeing how many people actually know these facts. See ya around sim'freaks!

"My R & R thus ended abruptly, and I headed back to what had by then become, for me, the real world."
George Wilson

[This message was edited by AG104 on Sun July 25 2004 at 08:12 AM.]

[This message was edited by AG104 on Sun July 25 2004 at 08:13 AM.]

Farkitt_
07-25-2004, 07:56 AM
Yeah, should be much Smaller.


FLYING MY AIRCRAFT:
"C O U N T R Y GAL"
http://www.owensvalleyhistory.com/pinups1/elvgren8_thmb.jpg

Yellonet
07-25-2004, 08:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Farkitt_:
Yeah, should be much Smaller.


FLYING MY AIRCRAFT:
"C O U N T R Y GAL"
http://www.owensvalleyhistory.com/pinups1/elvgren8_thmb.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not smaller but less visible, unfortunately that is (said to be)impossible with the current game engine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


- Yellonet

heywooood
07-25-2004, 09:43 AM
around and around we go.....yeehah!



http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Farkitt_
07-25-2004, 10:13 AM
Well It must only be a texture surely?

Heywooood, Don't say that, people might think your not a genious anymore http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


FLYING MY AIRCRAFT:
"C O U N T R Y GAL"
http://www.owensvalleyhistory.com/pinups1/elvgren8_thmb.jpg

CowboyTodd41
07-25-2004, 05:11 PM
Somebody should kill this topic now.

http://www.spankdonkey.com/jamming/view.php/1782.png

icrash
07-25-2004, 05:18 PM
Oleg did the muzzle flash thing so my virtual crew chief could cook hotdogs outdoors? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

http://img38.photobucket.com/albums/v117/icrash/txraidersig.bmp

sugaki
07-26-2004, 02:09 AM
AG104, I think no amount of evidence will fix this beast. They're set on keeping it as it is, despite the fact that it's probably a texture fix. Will just have to wait till BoB.

CHDT
07-26-2004, 02:29 AM
Simple solution: why not a switch "muzzleflashes on-off" for day and night?

Future-
07-26-2004, 08:51 AM
No changes will be made to the flashes. No "simple" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif on/off options. Period.

And even if there will be more threads and more complaints, Oleg said he won't change it. Not for FB, and most possibly alsonot for PF.

Gee, if those muzzle flashes are your only problem, then you're one of those guys that can't appreciate the good things they already have.

If some mod would be willing to lock this thread, that would be nice.

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

Atomic_Marten
07-26-2004, 09:37 AM
Muzzle flash shouldn't be so visible. Otherwise game is O.K.(considering promises of improved AI for BoB - that'll do for me) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fly nice

CHDT
07-26-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If some mod would be willing to lock this thread, that would be nice.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I like this attitude: everywhere, at school, in the office, in a platoon, there's always a guy calling the authority to come http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Btw, these muzzleflashes are OK for a Ben Affleck's movie, but not for a SIM!

heywooood
07-26-2004, 08:05 PM
Well - I think the point of this thread has been reponded to by every mod and developer at 1c several times over. The answer unequivocally has been - the muzzle flashes are not going away in FB - ever..and the PF is FB deluxe, so we must expect deluxe muzzle flashes. Seriously - this topic has been done to death - I think that is all Future was trying to say. If the muzzle flash effect can be reduced at all I suspect it would be...everyone is by now fully aware of the community's collective oppinion on it...However, we must expect that it will be the same in PF and only hope for the best.




http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

AG104
07-26-2004, 11:10 PM
I am to the least glad you guys see the problem too-i just hope you understand where i am coming from; it is just frusterating sometimes, and it is good to get it out you know? Thanks for the feedback, and i see what you guys were saying. S!

"My R & R thus ended abruptly, and I headed back to what had by then become, for me, the real world."
George Wilson

CHDT
07-27-2004, 01:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>this topic has been done to death<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, but look at the "50" story.

Inspite Oleg believed "his" 50's were right, they were changed because of some vocal whiners!

Now, with the muzzleflashes, we have something that is obviously wrong and that will not be changed.

I don't understand this dubble standard!

CHDT
07-27-2004, 02:39 AM
AG104, a vid for you and for all others http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.pallett.com/rsilvers/M60.wmv

CHDT
07-27-2004, 02:39 AM
So I ask a switch on-off for the muzzleflashes!

CHDT
07-27-2004, 02:44 AM
This time, a MG42:

http://www.pallett.com/rsilvers/MG42.wmv

Do you see a muzzleflash?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CHDT
07-27-2004, 02:50 AM
This time with some light WWII machine guns:

http://www.pallett.com/rsilvers/WWII.wmv

Muzzleflashes? No http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CHDT
07-27-2004, 02:54 AM
and the ultimate proof:

http://www.pallett.com/rsilvers/M2HB.wmv

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

something more to say? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

stansdds
07-27-2004, 04:09 AM
So what does this prove?

A) Shooting full auto weapons can be fun!

B) There is a fair amount of smoke.

C) Muzzle flash is all but invisible in daylight.

D) In case you did not know, owning and shooting these is legal in most parts of the U.S., it's obtaining, feeding and caring for them that is expensive and time consuming.

F16_Filur
07-27-2004, 04:22 AM
Yes, an option to COMPLETELY turn them OFF!! Just realistic smoke please. And make that an option for the online host too... so we can have servers with only nice and realistic people http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I‚¬īve been flying around in Warbirds and Aces High a bit, and even those ultrasmall muzzleflashes (compared to il2) disturbs me. What is COOL is to just hear the gun, see the smoke and the occasional 1/10 tracers and to see the hits on the enemy. It adds to the immersion that you are really THERE, and not in a comic book.

Then make some research on what the human eye actually can see from a ww2 cockpit in the night when firing. My bet is that the tracers are the interesting part in the night for our eyes.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I like this attitude: everywhere, at school, in the office, in a platoon, there's always a guy calling the authority to come <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then a patch for this forum with a button to put modcallers an an ignorelist would come as a close second to a mf fix. Kids who tell on their comrades.. no thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

stansdds
07-27-2004, 04:30 AM
Muzzle flashes are visible at night, that is why we usually see some type of cone attached to the muzzles of machine guns and cannons on night fighters.

F16_Filur
07-27-2004, 05:24 AM
But even at night, isnt there a difference between what the human can see IRL and what get captured on a film?

Future-
07-27-2004, 05:32 AM
In a report by a nightfighter pilot in WW2, he stated that especially the mk108 cannons were much disliked because they blinded the pilot everytime he fired them.

So at least regarding a night scenario and the larger guns, the flashes are correct.

Now, I have heard that the problem with FB's engine is that flashes can't be "adapted" to individual guns or daytimes, thus meaning they have to be equal size.
Also, it was mentioned that removing the flashes would be a difficult procedure. Not to mention the idea of implementing a switch option.

Now, the reason why I called for the "authority" is rahter simple - cause only if some mod or dev slams his fist on the table can these threads be put to a stop, at least for a short time.

Overall, I agree with heywooood.

And @ CHDT: Ever heard of the "edit" button?

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

CHDT
07-27-2004, 06:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And @ CHDT: Ever heard of the "edit" button?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really sorry to have disturbed you with my recent posts.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

CHDT
07-27-2004, 06:08 AM
Btw, I just found the "edit" button.

Thanks for the indication http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

NegativeGee
07-27-2004, 06:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CHDT:
This time, a MG42:

http://www.pallett.com/rsilvers/MG42.wmv

Do you see a muzzleflash?

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, although the first guy firing the weapon looks like his shoulder was hurting some http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - G√ľnther Rall

http://www.invoman.com/images/tali_with_hands.jpg

Look Noobie, we already told you, we don't have the Patch!

AG104
07-27-2004, 08:49 AM
CHDT-i can't thank you enough for posting what you posted. I have some footage like that, but one is an actual p51...i just don't know how to post a file on a link...anyway that is not important. I really am appreciative someone else asks that simple question i tell my 3 brothers about this game(they all play with me, we make a great schwarm!): "Do you see muzzle flashes?"

Great links, thanks once more.

"My R & R thus ended abruptly, and I headed back to what had by then become, for me, the real world."
George Wilson

AG104
07-27-2004, 08:54 AM
Oh yeah-you know what game really hits the mark on the smoke effect coming out of the guns? WWII Fighters and European Air War-though both have pretty bright flashes in day, (well...EAW was a transparent flash), anyway they have good smoke effects coming out of the gun. Really a sight to see.
Even outdated games like those seem to impress us huh!

One more thing-sort of on topic, along with an option for realistic muzzle flashes, don't you think a customizable tracer count would top it all? Hopeful thinking.

"My R & R thus ended abruptly, and I headed back to what had by then become, for me, the real world."
George Wilson

El Turo
07-27-2004, 04:19 PM
The only bad thing about PF being an add-on to IL2FB/AEP is that then we've got to deal with the absolutely ******ed muzzle flashes.

I don't see what the problem is. GET RID OF THEM. They are a black eye on an otherwise phenominal product.

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.

Future-
07-27-2004, 04:26 PM
... and here we have another visitor who posted without reading through the prior postings first.

Cause if you would have done that, I wouldn't have to repeat this:

Oleg said no change to muzzle flashes will be made. This most probably includes any chances for their removal.

Thanks for reading.

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

CHDT
07-27-2004, 04:42 PM
Thanks for your contribution, Future http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif


Btw, we don't ask about a change of the muzzleflashes, we all know that Oleg said it was not possible (1), we simply ask about the feasability of a switch on/off for the muzzleflashes.

Of course, if you are Oleg posting under another name, I will stop immediately asking about this possibility http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


(1) and with your great help, really everybody on this forum will be inform of that, once again thank you.

Future-
07-27-2004, 05:43 PM
You know, at first I had the impression you're making fun of me again.

But after reading it twice, I actually can only say:
"you're welcome"

Oh, and by the way, if you add/remove something, it is also a change to the game. And removing the flashes / adding a "switch" for them is therefore also nothing else than a change of them.
Now, think about this: if modifying the flashes would prove to be too difficult, then removing them, or giving an option to toggle them on/off, seems to me as it would also be a difficult task.

Although maybe this idea has some chances to be pulled through LATER.

Right now, the devs have their hands full with other stuff.

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

heywooood
07-27-2004, 06:15 PM
Right - this was my understanding also, Future

That with the contractural agreement 1c is under to develope a total of (5?) sims..that certain comrprehensive (read expensive and time consuming) changes would not be addressed until or unless all the other more pressing projects were completed. If - after that, people still care whether FB/PF has muzzle flashes, then they could be worked out at that time. Remember - we will by then have BoB - New Improved PF - and The Med so the likelyhood of anyone minding muzzle flashes in FB/PF will be greatly reduced.

Now think about this- What is the motivation to buy those new and improved flight sims?
Would you buy them if they were no better than FB/PF?.. you have to have something to improve on... like muzzle flash.




http://img78.photobucket.com/albums/v250/heywooood/ac_32_1.jpg
"Check your guns"

Future-
07-28-2004, 05:11 AM
Today in Oleg's Ready Room, Oleg Maddox himself has stepped into the muzzle flash thread that is active there. I recommend that everybody checks that thread.

Therefore, I guess this thread here is no longer needed and can be locked.

Here's the link to the thread in ORR:

http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=776105075

Simply jump to page 2 and check the lower end of it. There you'll find Oleg's first reply.

S!

- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg

Visit us at http://www.310thvfs.com , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

CHDT
07-28-2004, 05:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I recommend that everybody checks that thread.

Therefore, I guess this thread here is no longer needed and can be locked.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry, Future, but don't take it as a personal remark (after all why not)http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But who are you to say to everyone "make this", "don't do that", "lock this topic"? Some kind of unofficial ueber-mod!

Relax. Mods around here are pretty effective without being boring and seem to be able to do the job without your help, even if it is kindly offered.

Have a nice day.


P.S. As I'm "dumb", I propose you not to answer me, but of course you make what you want http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif From my side, that's what I'll do.

AG104
07-28-2004, 08:59 AM
I understand Oleg's response to that thread...he can't do much more-but i think along with what CHDT said, it is very important and relavent to keep this discussion up, (just to make sure Oleg doesn't forget!)

Anyway, about the powder used during wwii, that still does not effect the fact Il-2's muzzle flashes are anything but realistic and notfair to those who have Mg's in the nose. I know flashes were present, it is just the bright orange and yellow that bother me! And when i started this thread, it was the whole relavence of that subject in which i made this topic for. Is the working on/tweaking of muzzle flashes not important to make it into their next game release? Hey, just an opinion, and apparently quite a few agree.

"My R & R thus ended abruptly, and I headed back to what had by then become, for me, the real world."
George Wilson

El Turo
07-28-2004, 09:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>... and here we have another visitor who posted without reading through the prior postings first.

Cause if you would have done that, I wouldn't have to repeat this:

Oleg said no change to muzzle flashes will be made. This most probably includes any chances for their removal.

Thanks for reading.

- Future<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We plan to make different transparency of muzzle flash for day light and night. But I'm not sure that we will be able to make it till release of PF. ~Oleg<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Hey Future, thanks for playing.. and thanks for the smart *** remark. You keep accepting whatever the status quo is, and we'll keep pushing for improvements. Keep up the good work! Thanks for reading.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Callsign "Turo" in IL2:FB & WWIIOL
______________________
This place
was once
a place
of worship
I thought,
reloading my rifle.

~V.