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nixon-fiend.
04-03-2004, 09:13 AM
From playing the AEP online the thing that's struck me most is the durability of the 110s.

It's not uncommon to see one screeching below you .. pursued by 3/4 enemy fighters, most of which end up breaking off - having run outta ammo! - the bf110 still manages to limp away.

These planes were a failure in daylight operations in RL - but it seems they are too hardy in AEP..

nixon-fiend.
04-03-2004, 09:13 AM
From playing the AEP online the thing that's struck me most is the durability of the 110s.

It's not uncommon to see one screeching below you .. pursued by 3/4 enemy fighters, most of which end up breaking off - having run outta ammo! - the bf110 still manages to limp away.

These planes were a failure in daylight operations in RL - but it seems they are too hardy in AEP..

Kwiatos
04-03-2004, 09:46 AM
Yea you right but many planes are too tough in AEP. Expecially Laggs, La, Ju88, Ju87, etc. As i read there is bug in weapon effectivity and should be corrected in patch.
But really 110 now is too good fighter (too good maneouvr, dive, acceleration and too tough) with very dangerous rear gunner. The same situation we have with Il2 sturmovik (except its durabillity).

Maple_Tiger
04-03-2004, 09:55 AM
I you run out of amo then just ram it http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thats what i would do.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
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VW-IceFire
04-03-2004, 10:00 AM
Some observations:

1) DM's in general are now way too tough. Aircraft of all nations and types can absorb incredible amounts of damage and remain airworthy...at least to some extent. The reduction of structural failures is a generally good thing but its been taken too far.

2) Most pilots in a DM server (generally) tend to all cluster on a single target endangering themselves, their teammates, and throwing off each others aim. Ontop of this, many use the spray and pray approach....glancing hits aren't going to bring down a target.

3) The Bf110 is vulnerable in the engines. Its a fairly tough plane but with carefully considered aim and a good blast at an engine the aircraft will usually crash. Its generally fairly tough but fairly vulnerable at the same time...

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GR142-Pipper
04-03-2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> (...snip...)
These planes were a failure in daylight operations in RL - but it seems they are too hardy in AEP..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True. The BF-110 was pretty easy pickings as you correctly cite but as currently modeled is far too tough, defensively and offensively. The AI tail gunner (in this aircraft as well as other bombers) is a complete joke. Given how long the "AI gunner" issue has been allowed to remain, it seems like an effort by the game maker to "even the playing field" by providing a false lethality that these aircraft just didn't possess.

GR142-Pipper

PraetorHonoris
04-03-2004, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> (...snip...)
These planes were a failure in daylight operations in RL - but it seems they are too hardy in AEP..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True.
GR142-Pipper<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true. Flown with the right tactics the 110/410 were very effective until enemy's air superiority was becoming too much.
Their high losses suffered e.g. during the Battle of Britain were caused by inadequat tactics like direct cover of bombers, giving up advantages like surprise, speed and altitude.
If you have these advanteges in RL or in Game the 110 is deadly.
Of course, when they had to fight 20 enemy airplanes and were flown by newbie pilots the 110 was cannon fodder.

Pycckuu_4YBAK
04-03-2004, 11:02 AM
i dont find it too tough... the 2 big engines are pretty easy to hit...but the weapons could be made a little more powerfull anyway...

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Kurfurst__
04-03-2004, 12:30 PM
I have too to disagree. First, flying the 110 I dont find it any specially tough from my experience on the receiving end... the engines are killed fairly easily, and if he can hammer you steadily, you will fall apart. Smart 110 pilot of course do a lot of evasive manouvers, making less hits hit them - often not enough to bring them down. Second, the historical part. The 110 was a LARGE plane, heavier than the P-47, as large if not larger as the P-38, with a lot more armor then either - why do you expect it an easy prey ? It was by no means an equal vs. s-e fighters, being a less manouverable.. but! IT wasnt a childishly easy picking either. Ask those who faced it in 1939-40, it was effective in the air until it faced really modern s-e fighter.. also its manouveribility wasnt very bad. Again not as fast or a good climber as normal fighter, but not MUCH worser. You cant expect to fly with half the care and easily win against it. Also a note, this a/c has relatively low wingloading, you should expect it to turn TIGHTLY (OViewer also tells this), even if not as rapidly as others. A good team of 110s are hard opponents, they have heavy firepower, and rear gunners, so if you find yourself between two of them...

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Thy moment come. Thy will be done in Earth, as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily Abschuss.
And forgive us our Errors, as We forgive Your Flaws against us.
And lead us not into Temptation to dogfight, but deliver us from Those Below :
For thine are The Altitude, and The Climbrate, and the MK 108, forever and ever.
Amen.

SeaFireLIV
04-03-2004, 12:51 PM
I find 110s pretty easy pickings. Just aim for those fat engines on the wings while keeping a watch for the gunner. Don`t stay DIRECTLY behind, but always at a slight angle using your rudder to `side-step`.

WUAF_Badsight
04-03-2004, 01:20 PM
.

they aint to tough at all

doesnt anyone else but me notice how easy they are to set on fire ? (motors)

look at the P-38

that thing is incredibly hard to bust apart

as for the AI gunners .... they have all been dumbed down

some planes now have gunners that cant hit you to save their life http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

but the Bf110 is a bullet magnet in my eyes , dont seem to be especially strong to me

Hunde_3.JG51
04-03-2004, 03:03 PM
If anybody reading this can answer...

Are there bugs with P-63, Spit, and P-38 damage models? I thought I remember Gibbage showing a bunch of pics (from past updates) of damage that never appears in AEP. I know there are problems with weapons (or I hope it is a known problem) and I know structural strength was increased (or is result of weapon changes), but this has to do with DM's.

I tried for a long time to take the wing off of a P-63 and I just couldn't do it using 37mm, 30mm, and 20mm cannons. The engine catches fire rather easily (maybe too easily)but the wings and fuesalage seem indestructible. I would hit wings with big cannons and the engine would start smoking from fragments but no damage to wing. I finally resorted to ramming and managed to break off a wing tip. This was offline btw after MANY QMB fights.

Is this a known problem? Sorry if this was already answered elsewhere.

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BigganD
04-03-2004, 05:08 PM
I agree 100% with kurfurst!

No one is an ace!

Gershy
04-03-2004, 05:28 PM
I have to agree with Kurfurst as well. The 110 was not such a bad plane. I mean the fact that it doesn't stand a chance against more manouverable and faster single engine fighters if it doesn't have E advantage doesn't mean it'll break into pieces immediately if you shoot. I do have to agree that the DM has one little mistake (elevator control gets destroued way to easily). On the other hand i have to say the 110 takes much less damage than ANY of the russian twin engined planes. btw if you get shot down by a 110 don't forget it IS a fighter so don't expect it to behave like a bomber cause it simply isn't. And if you talk about 3 pilots shooting at 1 Bf110 and they run out of ammo it rather means that they can't shoot.

-----------------------------

So long.We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

Ob.Emann
04-03-2004, 09:27 PM
I fly the 110 predominately online and I don't think its durability is too much.

The main point of vulnrebility that I've noticed is its HUGE oblong cockpit. I find myself getting killed frequently when fighters attack from above and totally saturate the cockpit and pilot with MG rounds.

Learning proper defensive manoevers is a must.

Der Oberst von schlechten Piloten

Aztek_Eagle
04-04-2004, 01:13 AM
i fly the bf110 alot, and most of the ppl who atack me get neatly on my six, real close for me to just aim at them in the head wiht the tail gun, in the other hand, sometimes i am atack wiht lithing tactis and on the first 2 pases i am having problem keeping the plane on the air... so u got rookies and good pilots atacking a bf110, witch one is u?

Aztek_Eagle
04-04-2004, 01:13 AM
i fly the bf110 alot, and most of the ppl who atack me get neatly on my six, real close for me to just aim at them in the head wiht the tail gun, in the other hand, sometimes i am atack wiht lithing tactis and on the first 2 pases i am having problem keeping the plane on the air... so u got rookies and good pilots atacking a bf110, witch one is u?

RAF74_Buzzsaw
04-04-2004, 01:49 AM
Salute

The Me110's were considered easy meat for P-47's during '43 and '44. They were shot down in large numbers, whole Staffels being decimated in single battles.

All German twin engine fighters were withdrawn out of P-47 range after early '44.

As soon as the USAAF escorts were able to remain with the bombers for their entire route, the 110's were entirely removed from daylight interceptor use.

As far as this aircraft's rear gunner is concerned, it enjoy's the same overmodelled accuracy and lethality that the Stuka rear gunner and other AI gunners of any side's aircraft do. Not sure why this is still the case, but it is.

Stefan-R
04-04-2004, 01:53 AM
1.) Bf110 is a very weak plane compared to most fighters. If you can't get them down - learn to shoot. One aimed burst and it can't fight anymore.

2.) Ju87 now has a complex DM is far away from beeing overmodelled. (around 50 hits with .303 and it is history)

3.) AI-Gunners are wrong. But they are not to good, they are just to stupid. They often don't shoot at all if the fighter is slowly getting on the six. Maybe you fighterguys should sometimes fly in a bomber and see how bad the gunners are.

RAF74_Buzzsaw
04-04-2004, 02:32 AM
Salute

Actually I do fly the Ju87, and for example, on the 1940 servers, the Ju-87 is a dominant plane. It is possible to take down multiple attacking Hurricanes with Ju-87. The plane maneuvers amazingly well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif with a full load of a 500kg bomb, even being able to pull loops.

The real Ju-87 had to be pulled out of combat in the Battle of Britain because losses were prohibitively high.

GR142-Pipper
04-04-2004, 02:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
[QUOTE] (...snip...)
These planes were a failure in daylight operations in RL - but it seems they are too hardy in AEP..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True.
GR142-Pipper<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Not true. Flown with the right tactics the 110/410 were very effective until enemy's air superiority was becoming too much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Respectfully, you're wrong. It became clear that the Bf-110 was thoroughly outclassed by the single engined fighters of the opposition and it had nothing to do with tactics. It was so bad that they were soon relegated to night ops where their survivability was increased due to darkness. This isn't new information as it's been thoroughly documented.

GR142-Pipper

GR142-Pipper
04-04-2004, 02:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74BuzzsawXO:
Salute

The Me110's were considered easy meat for P-47's during '43 and '44. They were shot down in large numbers, whole Staffels being decimated in single battles.

All German twin engine fighters were withdrawn out of P-47 range after early '44.

As soon as the USAAF escorts were able to remain with the bombers for their entire route, the 110's were entirely removed from daylight interceptor use.

As far as this aircraft's rear gunner is concerned, it enjoy's the same overmodelled accuracy and lethality that the Stuka rear gunner and other AI gunners of any side's aircraft do. Not sure why this is still the case, but it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're absolutely right Buzzsaw. Well said.

GR142-Pipper

clint-ruin
04-04-2004, 02:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stefan-R:
1.) Bf110 is a very weak plane compared to most fighters. If you can't get them down - _learn to shoot_. One aimed burst and it can't fight anymore.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agreed. The cockpit and engines are extremely vulnerable. Go for a PK or an engine fire and you can take them down with ease. Don't bother attacking them anymore after they get an engine fire, they're pretty much cooked at that point. For the C4s competitors in the 1940 set, very few of them have enough firepower to cause structure failures without a lot of ammo being fired at them. The G2 has a much harder time of it in the 1942 set.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
2.) Ju87 now has a complex DM is far away from beeing overmodelled. (around 50 hits with .303 and it is history)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've seen a few odd things from .303 rounds in relation to fuel tanks now, myself, against a number of planes including the Ju-87. I would agree that the number of hits required to light up the fuel tanks is often very low.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
3.) AI-Gunners are wrong. But they are not to good, they are just to stupid. They often don't shoot at all if the fighter is slowly getting on the six. Maybe you fighterguys should sometimes fly in a bomber and see how bad the gunners are.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It appears that gun turret rotation has been turned down again over what it had been in previous patches. This makes the "fail to fire at all" behaviour stand out even more, since there's no guarantee they'll be able to swing to the target even after they've started tracking it.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Osirisx9
04-04-2004, 04:36 AM
The 110 is easy to shoot down. Especially if I'm in the P-63... In fact the P-63 will take down that He111 too with little trouble. I can park on the 6 of a 110 and take hits in the snout ( One of the great advantages of having a mid engine configuration) all day while I pump 37mms into the wings and engines. I'm so bold that I dont even lay off when I see smoke and flames. I 'll stay there until that bird pops like a dime sized zit. Sometimes I will just go 110 and he111 hunting. If I'm flying the pony I will just aim at the engine until they catch on fire. 1 minute later they will blow up...I just cant get too close in the pony however. The rear gunner will nail the engine every time.

Osiris_X9

Gershy
04-04-2004, 05:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PraetorHonoris:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GR142-Pipper:
[QUOTE] (...snip...)
These planes were a failure in daylight operations in RL - but it seems they are too hardy in AEP..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True.
GR142-Pipper<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Not true. Flown with the right tactics the 110/410 were very effective until enemy's air superiority was becoming too much. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Respectfully, you're wrong. It became clear that the Bf-110 was thoroughly outclassed by the single engined fighters of the opposition and it had nothing to do with tactics. It was so bad that they were soon relegated to night ops where their survivability was increased due to darkness. This isn't new information as it's been thoroughly documented.

GR142-Pipper<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry to say that but oyu're only partly correct. The 110s had a strange career. The ruled the skies over Poland, Norway and performed not much worse than the 109s in France. Problems occured in the BoB when they were ordered to stay with the Bombers which caused the high losses. So they were withdrawn from BoB. Anyhow the 110s were quite successful in the Balkan campaign and then in Barbarossa. Big problem was that it was already outdated but it's successor the 210 was a complete failure, so the 110G was introduced. During the war the purpose of the 110 had changed and they were used for ground attacks. In late 1942/43 the few ZGs in the east did mainly ground attacks but still used to attack fighters if they met them (I sometimes have the feeling ppl think it should fly like a bomber, just straight and level and run away) They suffered high losses during Stalingrad where they were used as escort as well again. Many ZGs had already been withdrawn from the front to form NJGs as the 110 was the best plane available for that. In 1943/44 the remaining ZGs flew as interceptors in the west. Actually as "Pulkzerstoerer" (means something like "Formationbreaker") because they could carry heavy armament to down the Bombers (granatelauncher, 20mm pods, BK3.7,...). When the US escorts arrived they're time had come. They were much faster than the Bf110 in general and much much faster than the heavily armed BF110s. Whole groups were lost in single fights. That's more or less the story. I hope I could show some ppl what the reason was why the 110s got shot down. It was NOT because it broke into pieces as soon as you look at her. And ppl should NOT forget as well that the 110 is a fighter and if my opponent is making mistakes in his P47 I'll shoot him and he shouldn't be whining but go and train a bit.

-----------------------------

So long.We wish you well.
You told us how you weren't afraid to die.
Well then, so long.Don't cry.
Or feel too down.
Not all martyrs see divinity.
But at least you tried.

plumps_
04-04-2004, 05:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74BuzzsawXO:
Salute

The Me110's were considered easy meat for P-47's during '43 and '44. They were shot down in large numbers, whole Staffels being decimated in single battles.

All German twin engine fighters were withdrawn out of P-47 range after early '44.

As soon as the USAAF escorts were able to remain with the bombers for their entire route, the 110's were entirely removed from daylight interceptor use.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Don't forget that their Mission was to go after the bombers, ignoring the fighters. Not a miracle if they were easy meat for the P-47 under such circumstances.

Anyway, the BF-110 in FB/AEP doesn't seem too strong -- I just shot down 7 of them with a single P-47 in the QMB (with additional, but limited ammo).

Online things may be different, but the reason isn't the BF-110's damage model.

-----------------------------------
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SeaFireLIV
04-04-2004, 05:58 AM
The only good thing about this thread is at least it picks on a Luftwaffe plane for a change, but I still think these aircraft are not that tough when attacked correctly. I really do wish people would learn to get around problems rather than griping about them. I don`t moan about aircraft I DEAL WITH IT and find ways to beat them.

Gah! It`s a good thing God doesn`t respond to every complaint of people in Real Life, If these forums are anything to go by he`d be inundated in whines! Actually, he was, if anyone actually bothered to read the Bible Old Testament bit. (And I`m not saying Oleg is god, before someone gets the wrong idea http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif). But once again, I digress...

SeaFireLIV...

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It`s not about the Machine...
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Stefan-R
04-04-2004, 06:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74BuzzsawXO:
Salute

Actually I do fly the Ju87, and for example, on the 1940 servers, the Ju-87 is a dominant plane. It is possible to take down multiple attacking Hurricanes with Ju-87. The plane maneuvers amazingly well... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif with a full load of a 500kg bomb, even being able to pull loops.

The real Ju-87 had to be pulled out of combat in the Battle of Britain because losses were prohibitively high.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Are we talking about FM oder DM?

Of course there are guys that can't down a Stuka with a Hurricane, but there are also guys that can't down a Bf 110.

Danschnell
04-07-2004, 04:11 AM
I find it laughable what some people claim about Bf110s and bombers.
The Bf110 is my favourite plane online and so many people just fly up to it from my direct six, flying slowly and in a straight line, and wonder why their plane goes down after my gunner has spent the last few seconds firing a continual stream of 100s of rounds into their engine.
I find that AI gunners are now so stupid they often don't fire at all. Thats not at all. There is no way they are overmodelled. Their stupidity makes me weep. What people complain about is not being able to use idiot tactics against human players, because they read in a book that a certain type of opponent was 'easy meat.'
The Bf110 is extremely vulnerable in IL2. It flies like a garbage truck but I am still capable of getting loads of kills in it because people don't hit me much, and I can still aim and fire at someone's six the same as any other aircraft under the sun.

MatuDa
04-07-2004, 05:03 AM
bf110's are pretty easy pickings if you aim well. The engines tend to catch fire, fueltanks catch fire and explode really soon after that, elevators come off easily enough, pk is fairly easy if you are not in exactly 6.

Problems (rightfully) arise when engaging several 110's because the mk108+151/20's make short work of anyone who even visits the revi http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

The rear gunners sometimes dont shoot at all, best chance is to nail the enemy manually from the gunner position. As far as the rg efficiency is concerned, IRL pilots would NOT attack enemy planes without caution. In il2 it seems to be the most used "tactic" to fly level behind the enemy bomber and then complain the ai hits you. I do agree that sometimes they make snipershots tho but usually the ones I see complaining online have made the stupidest attacks and deserve what they got http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

It's all about tactics.

Tetrapharmakoi
04-07-2004, 06:39 AM
110 are easy prey , just aim the engines ...
even with a MiG , the most fragile plane and not well armed , i suppress three of them very easily in one flight

Cossack13
04-07-2004, 07:59 AM
As with many planes in Il2, you can empty your gun into the 110 from the dead 6 and accomplish little.

The 110 will only prove to be "too hardy" a target for poor marksman and poor tacticians.

http://www.tolwyn.com/~cossack/Coss110Sig.gif

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
04-07-2004, 08:44 AM
Flying this bird often (since it's a NICE Fighter-Bomber) i can't so far confirm that it's a tough one.

2/3 of ground attacks fail due to lack of armor, resulting in steering probs or engine failures.

In dogfights you tend to be a roman candle if you fail to spot the enemy soon enough. Besides the gunner is real crap (check out the gun yourself btw. funny effects when you swivel it from left to right and try to see when the bullet hits according to reticle..)

When pitted against western planes the cal 50s shred your engines in seconds and then you're hardly an opponent.

BTW: did anoyne notice that once oyu're on fire that flames quickly engulf the whole plane ? even when you turn off the engine make a steep dive to blow out the flames and land ?
I was standing there for 4 minutes with smoking but not active engine. I was out of fuel just before touchdown and it still started to burn...

Don't think the 110s are tough...

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

BigganD
04-09-2004, 03:54 PM
hehe true, *f the 110 is after you, try to make an loping...hehe and you will see how bad the 110 is on that

No one is an ace!

gates123
04-09-2004, 05:34 PM
They are reletively tough unless Gibbage is being you in a p-63 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif

http://www.fortunecity.com/meltingpot/justin/1087/WWII/Images/Thumbs/TBf109AK.jpg
Did anyone see that or was it just me?

E_Temperament
04-09-2004, 11:39 PM
I think you guy's who say the bf110 is tough ought to go fly it against a p38 in the QMB. It is extremely vulnerable to frontal attack due to its large canopy. It's engines catch on fire very easily and the elevator and control cables are weak. The only advantage it has from the rear is it's stupid lazy tail gunner who either won't shoot or when it does it just wastes ammo or with one shot it will PK, which is so seldom it's not worth mentioning. Do remember that the rear gun is twin barrel and if a human pilot is good enough to aim with it it is lethal. If you can't down a bf110 then you must need more practice learning how to aim and or learning tactical fighting

Angelus897
04-10-2004, 04:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RAF74BuzzsawXO:

The real Ju-87 had to be pulled out of combat in the Battle of Britain because losses were prohibitively high.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Stuka that served in BoB was the Ju-87 B-1, which was a very weak plane. IL-2 has the B-2, etc which were significantly improved (especially in armor).

Maj_Death
04-10-2004, 06:17 PM
I mostly fly bombers and fighter-bombers. These days I spend more time in the Bf-110G2 than any other bird. The complaints here are standard for newbie interceptors who have no clue as to down a bomber.

First of all, the Bf-110G2 is no tougher than any other bird. Planes in AEP are currently WAY, WAY too tough. For those who think the Bf-110G2 is too tough, take a look at the P-38. It takes no less than 40 20mm hits or 7 30mm hits to down it. It is immune to both fire (it burns, but never fries pilot or blows up) and engine damage. The engine either runs or it doesn't.

Secondly is the tail gunner, gunners in AEP are undermodeled to the point where you might as well not have them at all. They often don't shoot and even when they do they have a habit of firing completly in the wrong direction. All those sniper Bf-110 gunners that keep killing you are almost certainly *player* controlled. I am amazed by how stupidly most DF server pilots attack planes with gunners. Most of the time they fly slow straight at the gunner. This makes not only hitting them very easy, but also makes hitting the pilots head reasonably easy.

Now about performance, the performance is mediocre at best. The Bf-110G2 was a reasonably agile plane in WW2, often being compared to the Hurricane in that realm. In AEP it is not as agile as a hurricane but it can outturn a P-51 with little difficulty. Its climb rate is well below average with a max sustained climb rate of 18m/s. Top speed is simply pathetic for a 1943 fighter, it only goes 508km/h TAS at SL. For comparison, the Fw-190A5 goes about 570km/h TAS at SL.

Most of my kills while flying the Bf-110G2 are made while playing as gunner. Most people fly straight at the tail gun so all you have to do is just point, click, and watch them go down. I do of course make my share of kills with the forward guns too. My kills with the forward guns are made mostly by jumping unalert enemies or engaging in a large DF where you can rely on team mates to keep your tail semi-clear. In a 1vs1 fight, the Bf-110G2 is at a severe disadvantage. If the enemy is in an american plane and does something incredibly stupid like turn fight or stare down your gunners barrel then you can get him. But otherwise the Bf-110 has little hope of survival. Yaks, La's, and P-63's knock Bf-110's down very easily.

I suggest some people here get a clue, learn to fly and stop trying to have Mr. Maddox cripple an already crippled airplane. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Edit: Sorry if I come off as a bit of an *ss in this post but these complaints really are just silly. This whole thread is about as silly as compaining about how the TB-3 is too fast and you can't catch it in your Me-262.

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Maj_Death here, Stab.I/JG1Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them atmy COOP page (http://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm)

I/JG1 Oesau is recruiting axis pilots who prefer to fly maximum realism. We accept both veterans and rookies. We fly in VEF2, VOW and may join other online wars in the future. Go to our forums at http://www.jg1-oesau.org/ for more details and to apply.
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[This message was edited by Maj_Death on Sat April 10 2004 at 07:03 PM.]

SeaFireLIV
04-10-2004, 10:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Maj_Death:

Secondly is the tail gunner, gunners in AEP are undermodeled to the point where you might as well not have them at all. They often don't shoot and even when they do they have a habit of firing completly in the wrong direction. All those sniper Bf-110 gunners that keep killing you are almost certainly *player* controlled. April 10 2004 at 07:03 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Talking about AI gunners, I`m quite saddened at how dumb the AI rear gunners are now, sometimes shooting dumbly wide or not at all as mentioned. The rear gunner had already been `dumbed-down` from FB out-of-the-box and was just about ok(no more constant headshots). You had to pay respect to the gunner. But the whines got through and this is what we have, simply because people aren`t prepared to make an effort to fly PROPERLY against fighters/bombers with rear guns.

One thing I have noticed is how new 110 flyers now talk about how bad the rear gunner AI is, wheras before the 110 they were advocating `dumbing` it down.

But Oleg can`t win, make AI dumber or better the whines will continue... Someone`s good is someone else`s bad.

SeaFireLIV...

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clint-ruin
04-10-2004, 10:14 PM
Seafire, I believe the explanation for the change in attitude from some people is that before, they were flying intercept missions.

Now they're flying something with a rear gunner of its own and discovering that the gunner AI was never particularly brilliant to start with even before the rotation speed got nerfed :&gt;

http://users.bigpond.net.au/gwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Angelus897
04-10-2004, 11:10 PM
AI Rear gunners are a mixed bag, sometimes they don't do much, other times they can bring down planes with a couple of shots. For instance a couple of weeks ago I was flying an IL2 on a DF server, when a P-38 tried to take a swipe at me. As he strafed me he exposed his bare bottom for a second, when my AI gunner took a shot at him. One second later the P-38 was a flaming wreck heading towards the ground (probably got the fuel tank).

Maj_Death
04-10-2004, 11:12 PM
That is true to an extent. I have been flying planes with gunners for a while and thought the gunners in FB were ok but now they are useless. This is the first I've said of it though because I normally take the gun from the AI as soon as a bandit is in its firing arc so it is a non-issue for me. The only reason I mentioned it here was because of these noobies crying about getting killed by them. I just thought I should mention that if the gunner got them then that gun was almost certainly under player control instead of AI.

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Maj_Death here, Stab.I/JG1Death at HL

I build COOPs and DF maps. If you would like some of them you can get them atmy COOP page (http://www14.brinkster.com/triggerhappy770/default.htm)

I/JG1 Oesau is recruiting axis pilots who prefer to fly maximum realism. We accept both veterans and rookies. We fly in VEF2, VOW and may join other online wars in the future. Go to our forums at http://www.jg1-oesau.org/ for more details and to apply.
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Giganoni
04-12-2004, 01:48 AM
Well, not too tough. I take out the c's in just a couple of bursts with the Hawker Hurricane 1. Really easy too because if the 110 starts to turn you get great deflection for the engines..and soon he's either smoking or on fire. Don't turn fight it though, just dive into the turn, make your shot and get back up. I love piloting the G version though. The single mission AEP comes with was very fun. Facing the AI of course was pretty easy, taking out bombers and late model yaks was pretty easy (even though they destroyed my gunsight). Still, its very fun and I'm really glad they made a 110 flyable. It is my favorite German plane now.