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Sushiglutton
12-30-2012, 12:35 PM
Often on this forum and elsewhere you will hear people say that the stealth mechanics of Assassin's Creed are broken. But rarely do you see anyone specify exactly what they mean. Feedback of that kind is pretty useless to the developers. I was hoping we could discuss what we think are the problems with stealth and how it could improved. Please be as specific and constructive as possible. Also give examples! Don't just say "the AI is broken". Give examples of in which situations you feel the AI is broken. Doesn't have to be an essay ofc, a line or two is enough.

Things to discuss:

Features you like
Features that are missing
AI
Difficulty level
Gadgets
Level design
etc


I will post my thoughts in a little while, still working on them ;). However I haven't played that many stealth games, so I was hoping some of you guys with more experience could contribute with your ideas!

Assassin_M
12-30-2012, 12:48 PM
AC III definitely has the right Idea and has the most elements of Stealth. What`s missing is proper Implementation. Social Stealth is a must and yet it`s not present in ANY Assassination memory and in favor of those, we were given riding around in a broken horse. It`s the design Priority that the Devs need to work on.

Freedom will do wonders. Give us more than one way to be stealthy. AC III has so many types of Stealth. Social stealth, regular stealth and hunting stealth. Surprisingly, hunting works the best. The Linearity is causing this to flounder. Give more options OF STEALTH, we already, somewhat, have the option of stealth or Rambo. The AI is just right IMO. I think it`s the most realistic in AC III, combine that with more stealth opportunities alongside some tweaks like crouching and this`ll be perfect.

F0RTY SEVIN
12-30-2012, 04:23 PM
A crouch mechanic would fix a lot of the problems. a way to move quickly and quietly (and behind waist high objects) is desperately needed in Assassins Creed. The devs reason for not including it is social stealth, but this game doesn't really use social stealth all that much. You are often alone in restricted areas with just guards. It can also be implemented with social stealth pretty easily. If a guard sees you crouching they will naturally become suspicious (because it isn't socially acceptable) regardless of whether or not you are in a crowd.

The mission design needs to be more open and needs to encourage player choice and creativity (and re-introduce social stealth as a primary gameplay element). For example, maybe a hanging that you need to prevent and you have the potential to use the crowd for social stealth or head up to the restricted roof tops and used crouched movement to dispatch the marksmen up there followed by an air assassination to prevent the hanging or go rambo with your recruit assassins to start a conflict to prevent the hanging. For this to work they need to ditch the concept of mission constraints as they promote linearity.

The AI is flawed (it is improving with every AC title but it isn't there yet). I will need to play the game again to get some specific examples ready but the basic ones I can point out are the inconsistency of guard reaction when partially alerted. Some forget they saw anything within seconds and don't even investigate at all while some magically develop x-ray vision and continue moving toward your position no matter where you go and no matter how long you have broken line of site. Another issue is that no matter what I'm doing they fill up their suspicion meter at the same rate. If I'm just walking around not bothering anyone at a decent distance from the guard that meter should fill far slower than when I'm sprinting from cover to cover. Overall, the AI is close but these inconsistencies need to be resolved.

As for some smaller gripes. All restricted areas need to be marked on the map. If I get attacked by guards while I'm just walking around in New York and my icon says incognito I tend to get frustrated. I would also like it if the guards behavior naturally changed (animations, routes, etc.) as they found dead guards.

Those are my main gripes. If these were all addressed in the next title I would be one happy Assassin :)

Sushiglutton
12-30-2012, 06:52 PM
So here is some of mine thoughts without peeking at you guys replies :).

The new things in AC3
IMO all the new additions in AC3 (whistle, stalking zones, easier crowd blending, corner cover) are very sound and work well. So I think the stealth has improved, but there are still many issues.


1) Movement is too clumsy
The free-running is awesome when casually exploring the city. But when more precision is needed (like in the stealth segments) it kind of breaks down. Frequently you will find yourself exposed because Connor jumps in a direction you didnít intend (this problem has increased a bit with the new freerunning controls). Or that you get stuck and are unable to get out of sight from a guard. These feel like the equivalent of a cheap death and are very frustrating for the player. For example on the ship mission in the final part of the campaign you can't climb around the stern like you should.

2) No crouch
It's annoying when you can't hide behind things you should be able to hide behind. The corner cover and stalking zones are both steps in the right direction, but I think a crouch button would be nice as well. So you could hide behind waste high walls for example. Preferably it should be a bit sticky like the corner cover is. I think this could make moving through the stealth sections feel smoother.

3) The rules for what is visible for the guards are inconsistent.
Sometimes they seem to spot you from very far away, other times they can't see you from pretty close up. Another example is when you are hanging from a balcony railing, that is clearly transparent and yet the guards can't see you. Third example is some of the stalking zones where Connor looks super visible (or Haytham in a redcoat uniform). These inconsistent rules are annoying.

4) Guard reacts wrong to finding bodies
You can hide bodies in AC, but there is no point doing that. If a soldier find a dead body they will just walk up to it, investigate for a second or two and then keep on patrolling. This feels real wrong. The guards should have some kind of permanent alert phase after some events (like they finding a bidy, hearing a gunshot etc). A phase where they actively search for you and become a litlle bit more suspicious. This would be an incentive for you to make clean kills.

5) Recruits are unnecessary and create more randomness+cheap fails
The recruit system is very immersion-breaking (six guys following Connor wherever he goes ready to jump out). They look silly and their behaviour is generally stupid. For example when you use lure they will frequently lure guards into the area you want to access instead of away from it. Since the game struggles with the enemy AI I think having a friendly AI on top just causes a lot of complexity that isn't needed. You could still have assassins helping you out in some story missions, but other than that I think this system should be discarded.

6) More ways to manipulate your enemies
This is what I enjoy the most to do in stealth games. Playing with the AI using different tools to outsmart them. The recruits do this to some extent and so does the whistle. But like I said I think the recruits should go. Instead Connor should get some more tools. First the Whistle should be free to use wherever to lure guards to the spot where you stand (you can obv run away from that spot before they arrive). Secondly I think adding something like beeing able to through a stone to lure guards to a specific spot would be nice (Ezio had his cherry bombs).

All kinds of traps are nice, mines are not all that stealthy though. I think some more silent traps would be cool. Like that spiky trap in the movie Apocalypto (think Rambo uses something like that too). There could also be traps controlled by a string so you can remote control them.


Ok that's it for now :)!

Sushiglutton
12-30-2012, 07:02 PM
AC III definitely has the right Idea and has the most elements of Stealth. What`s missing is proper Implementation. Social Stealth is a must and yet it`s not present in ANY Assassination memory and in favor of those, we were given riding around in a broken horse. It`s the design Priority that the Devs need to work on.

That's a good point. The social stealth is pretty unique to this franchise and could be emphasized more in the story. I think the implementation in the earlier games were a bit silly, so I'm glad they tweaked it a bit. Like hiding among four courtesans for example. Kind of humorous, not very cool. The new recruit blend is much better. Also Ezio should have used better disguises in some missions and carried less weapons. The new crowd blend is another improvement for sure. So, like you said, it's mostly a question of taking better advantage of the systems they have.



Freedom will do wonders. Give us more than one way to be stealthy. AC III has so many types of Stealth. Social stealth, regular stealth and hunting stealth. Surprisingly, hunting works the best. The Linearity is causing this to flounder. Give more options OF STEALTH, we already, somewhat, have the option of stealth or Rambo. The AI is just right IMO. I think it`s the most realistic in AC III, combine that with more stealth opportunities alongside some tweaks like crouching and this`ll be perfect.

This is also a very good point. The ristricted level design hurts stealth gameplay a lot more than it hurts parkour, or combat.

Given how many forms of stealth there are in this game, we really aska ton of the developers lol. But that's what we are here for :cool:. Pleas sir could I have some more!

Sushiglutton
12-30-2012, 07:16 PM
1) A crouch mechanic would fix a lot of the problems. a way to move quickly and quietly (and behind waist high objects) is desperately needed in Assassins Creed. The devs reason for not including it is social stealth, but this game doesn't really use social stealth all that much. You are often alone in restricted areas with just guards. It can also be implemented with social stealth pretty easily. If a guard sees you crouching they will naturally become suspicious (because it isn't socially acceptable) regardless of whether or not you are in a crowd.

2)The mission design needs to be more open and needs to encourage player choice and creativity (and re-introduce social stealth as a primary gameplay element). For example, maybe a hanging that you need to prevent and you have the potential to use the crowd for social stealth or head up to the restricted roof tops and used crouched movement to dispatch the marksmen up there followed by an air assassination to prevent the hanging or go rambo with your recruit assassins to start a conflict to prevent the hanging. For this to work they need to ditch the concept of mission constraints as they promote linearity.

3)The AI is flawed (it is improving with every AC title but it isn't there yet). I will need to play the game again to get some specific examples ready but the basic ones I can point out are the inconsistency of guard reaction when partially alerted. Some forget they saw anything within seconds and don't even investigate at all while some magically develop x-ray vision and continue moving toward your position no matter where you go and no matter how long you have broken line of site. Another issue is that no matter what I'm doing they fill up their suspicion meter at the same rate. If I'm just walking around not bothering anyone at a decent distance from the guard that meter should fill far slower than when I'm sprinting from cover to cover. Overall, the AI is close but these inconsistencies need to be resolved.

4)As for some smaller gripes. All restricted areas need to be marked on the map. If I get attacked by guards while I'm just walking around in New York and my icon says incognito I tend to get frustrated. I would also like it if the guards behavior naturally changed (animations, routes, etc.) as they found dead guards.

5)Those are my main gripes. If these were all addressed in the next title I would be one happy Assassin :)


1) Yeah I also want a crouch mechanic :). Very good point about social stealth, I don't really get what the developers mean by that. Just turn off the social blend mechanic when the player crouches, problem solved (like you said).

2) Same as A_M thought :). Have to agree with everything here as well. Stealth is a lot about creativity and experimentation. The way missions is designed in AC really kills that feeling. And the sideconstraints kills the little that is left.

3) I also struggled to come up with specific examples, but during gameplay you run into a lot of really awkward wtf kind of situations. The x-ray vision I agree with, I have noted that too now that you mention it. Like a guard spots you, you climb around a bit randomly and they are still magically after you. It feels cheap. They can also walk in strange braindead direction. It just feels so random and random is not fun as it kills the planning aspect of stealth.

4) I know what you mean by that, had the same problem. Guards that are blocking a doorway are way to sensitive to you coming close. You could walk by on the street, same as every other citizen, and they still blow the alarm and chase after you.

5) Fingers crossed ;)!!!

Sushiglutton
12-30-2012, 07:25 PM
Oh I also had a couple of other ideas. I posted a new control layout in the single player feedback thread: http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/720979-Assassin-s-Creed-3-Single-Player-Gameplay-Feedback-DO-NOT-POST-SPOILERS/page142.

I have changed my mind a little. I think the dog will cause many of the same problems recruits do (even though it's still a better concept imao). I think LT should be used as a stealth modifier button. LT+ a facebutton should trigger different kind of stealth actions. For example:

LT+Y = Whistle (can be performed at any time anywhere)
LT+X = Throw stone
LT+A = Throw smokebomb
LT+B = Something I haven't come up with yet ;).

Hold LT to aim

AjinkyaParuleka
12-30-2012, 07:42 PM
They should have the stealth and awareness mechanism from Hitman Absolution.Guards get on full alert if they spot a body or pool of blood.We should have a sneak or crouch option,as freeruning in this game makes no noise at all,while in acii+ freeruning makes noises and attracts guard attention.We should have the ability to pick up some misc things on the ground like sticks,stones,pans,etc.Also,didn't the Boston trailer had the mech to have Connor hide his face from guards?Also there should be an option to push someone down from a roof to hell.

lothario-da-be
12-30-2012, 08:56 PM
I think the ability to crouch and a lot more freedom are the most important. In ac3 there is 1 mission that was realy a facepalm for the developers.That mission where you play as Haytham and you are accompanied by Natives. I wanted to plan my mission and sneak around but no, they limited the area to 1 maybe 2 options. If this gets fixed and if the croushing problem is solved stealth will feel more natural. Or a cover option like most 3rd person shouters use would be nice too.

SixKeys
12-30-2012, 11:51 PM
AI: This is one of the most important things in a stealth game. AC3's enemy AI was a big improvement over the dumb-as-bricks guards of the Ezio games, but it was fundamentally broken because it didn't always react in logical ways to the player. There should be clear rules about what the enemies will and won't react to. For example if you're running like a maniac while notorious, it makes sense they would detect you. It does NOT make sense when enemies halfway across a fort magically detect you because you quietly snuck behind their backs outside their line of sight. The guards in AC3 are basically telepathic which is no more realistic than the halfwit guards of AC2. AI should be realistic but adherent to logical rules: act stealthy and you won't be detected. Also, gameplay should always trump realism. Even though AC2's guards may not be realistically smart, the gameplay is still more fun because the rules make sense and are applied fairly. AC3 has more realistic detection, but it makes stealth not fun when the AI keeps detecting you even when you're playing by the rules.

Difficulty level: No. AC doesn't need difficulty levels, it just needs better design. If the devs can figure out the right balance between challenging and fun combat and realistic and fun AI, the game could be enjoyed by everyone.

Gadgets: I felt AC2 had the exact right amount of gadgets. Beyond that it just started to get unnecessary. The crossbow in ACB was overpowered which made throwing knives entirely unnecessary yet we still got both. Poison darts took away the danger and thrill of being spotted because in AC2 you could only apply poison up close and personal. In ACR you had all these weapons PLUS bombs. AC3 was a step in the right direction by removing some of the unnecessary weapons and replacing them with new, useful tools (like snares). On the other hand, there were rarely reasons or opportunities to use things like rope darts or tripwire bombs. There's no point in adding new gadgets to a game if you're not going to bother making the player at least experiment with them. To add insult to injury, the weapon selection menu was more cumbersome than in the Ezio games, making it more of a hassle to change weapons on the fly.

Level/mission design: The increasing linearity didn't start bothering me until ACR. In AC3 it feels less like I'm playing a game and more like watching an interactive movie. Sometimes entire missions are literally nothing but "walk from point A to point B", sometimes several times in a row. That's just ridiculous. The freedom of approach and planning was an important feature in AC1. I understand wanting to make the game more cinematic, but there are ways to balance out cinematic missions and freedom of choice. I'm getting tired of having to run through burning ships within a given amount of time, through a linear path, so that I can watch another cut scene. Why not drop me in the middle of a burning ship and let ME figure out the best way to get out? Make it a challenge to find the most efficient way out. For example, there could be an optional objective for finding a path that is longer but will result in less damage to your character, or a path that is shorter but will force you to jump through a burning window, making you take a hit to your health. That would leave the choice up to the player what they feel the assassin would do in that situation. One thing I hated about playing Connor and, to an extent, Ezio in the later games is that I felt like I was often forced to do things that felt contrary to the nature of the character. Connor did not feel like a character with enough patience to EVER take the stealthy way, yet sometimes I was forced to it by the game. It just felt contrary to how he was written. Similarly, as Ezio became stronger and more unbeatable with each new game, I found myself questioning why he would even bother being stealthy when he could easily just kill everyone in his path. The player should be able to get inside the character's head and make them do things that feel natural for their interpretation of that character. Hence why freedom of approach is so important in the first game. I didn't care that AltaÔr didn't have a strong personality from the beginning; I was creating his personality through playing him. I decided when it felt right for AltaÔr to take the stealthy route or when it felt logical that he would attack everyone head-on.

Social stealth: This was practically nonexistent in AC3. There were never enough NPCs around to blend with while escaping from enemies and hiding spots weren't displayed on the mini-map which made escaping a real nuisance. The idea of replacing static groups with only two or three NPCs to blend with is good, but in practice it was often hard to tell which NPCs counted as two or one. The idea is that you should be able to blend with any two NPCs at any time as long as they're close enough, but many times I found that I couldn't blend with two people because for some reason the game only counted them as one. Regarding notoriety, bribing town-criers and ripping down posters feels really old by now. It feels like a hangover mechanic in a game that takes place in an entirely different setting and time period. Why are there children in the game if they don't do anything at all? Why not have the children be part of a notoriety mechanic, like the minstrels? You could bribe children to go and harass guards who are looking for you or to create a commotion in the crowd so you could slip by unnoticed. On the other hand, some children could be unreliable or mischievous and actually work against you, so bribing them would be a game of chance. Maybe they would choose to help you (say, 70% chance) or they could simply take your money and report you to the nearest guard, setting off a chase. That would bring some more character to them.

Gi1t
12-31-2012, 03:25 AM
Difficulty level: No. AC doesn't need difficulty levels, it just needs better design. If the devs can figure out the right balance between challenging and fun combat and realistic and fun AI, the game could be enjoyed by everyone.


Perhaps the best way to accomplish that would be to really get some variation in the strength and effectiveness of guards. I was pleased to hear about more specialized guards in AC2, but they really just had one or two little differences between them and stopped there. A brute was just as easily killed as any other guard when you get right down to it. The agile guards just weren't believeable. Ezio is a specialist at climbing/freerunning, there's no equipment that would make some idiot guard suddenly just as quick as Ezio, so I'd say come up with a replacement for that class of guard. And seekers, well, they just fall into the category of "most likely to die first". XD

What I'd like to see (wherever the story goes next) would be a variety of guards defined by different specializations, and by rank. Higher ranked personnel would be better at their given tasks and choosing to confront/circumvent them would be harder if that's what you chose to do. These more skilled guards could be stationed around more prized real estate for assassination purposes or holding items that would give you new options. EX: A high ranked guard might be stationed at a back entrance ot a building or in front of a place where one could easily get up over a wall etc. One might also have the key to a door you wouldn't normally be able to open. The point being, a skilled player could go after a few tough guards to get around a lot of lower ranked ones. The difficulty could vary depending on the usefulness of what's at stake, but ultimatley, those higer ranked guards would have to be pretty **** tough to kill/outsmart to keep up with experienced players.

Side note: wouldn't changing the color of your clothing be a pretty sensible way to reduce notoriety? After all, the general color of what a person's wearing would be the first visual cue someone would use to spot a dangerous individual. That nut in the harbor in AC1 proved that nicely, didn't he?

ACfan443
12-31-2012, 03:27 PM
I liked this post from the GTA forums(I disagree with the 'AC3 is worst game' part):


somehow Ubisoft managed to make AC3 the worst AC yet. it's not Connor's fault and it's not the story's fault; it's the gameplay.
they essentially broke the most fundamental aspects of AC gameplay that they had been building ever since the first game.

the cover / detection system is ruined. we've been over this before... enemies can spot you from the back of their head while facing the other direction, the entire area is alerted, guards will spawn out of thin air who know EXACTLY where you are, line-of-sight does not exist, etc etc. it's absolutely terrible and every mission that has to do with infiltrating a guarded zone or killing a target without being detected is NO FUN whatsoever. I have NO FUN playing these missions. trying to navigate a guarded base (an area marked in red on the minimap) is the most unrealistic, tedious, boring, and maddening experience I've ever had in an AC game.

Connor is a guy living in the 18th century.
Connor's enemies are cyborgs from the future with heat-seeking, night-vision, 180-degree laser targeting. they can also communicate instantly across the map using their built-in Bluetooth headsets so that every guard in the area is on the same page at all times. it's f*****g absurd.

basic gameplay is utterly broken in AC3.
in fact, the ONLY thing they did well in AC3 is the Naval missions. those are awesome. everything else feels like a chore with almost no enjoyment attached to it.

Sushiglutton
12-31-2012, 05:40 PM
They should have the stealth and awareness mechanism from Hitman Absolution.Guards get on full alert if they spot a body or pool of blood.We should have a sneak or crouch option,as freeruning in this game makes no noise at all,while in acii+ freeruning makes noises and attracts guard attention.We should have the ability to pick up some misc things on the ground like sticks,stones,pans,etc.Also,didn't the Boston trailer had the mech to have Connor hide his face from guards?Also there should be an option to push someone down from a roof to hell.

I haven't played Hitman: A yet :(, but if they have a good system I say go for it! I think picking up stuff from the ground is cool, but that complicates things a lot no? I mean making so many objects interactive. I'm thinking if Connor always can throw a stone or something to lure enemies that is enough. What do you think?

I think the face-hiding thing is actually the "protect agaisnt fire"- animation that they just put in the demo? For something like that you need disguises I think. I mean no point hiding your face if your dressed like Connor is! Disguises is an interesting idea. In some story missions disguises are used, but maybe there could be a system for using them more dynamically. Like you could steal outfits from guards and others. Or Connor could have outfits for certain occasions/social classes/types of clubs etc? How do you feel about having more disguises etc?

Sushiglutton
12-31-2012, 05:45 PM
I think the ability to crouch and a lot more freedom are the most important. In ac3 there is 1 mission that was realy a facepalm for the developers.That mission where you play as Haytham and you are accompanied by Natives. I wanted to plan my mission and sneak around but no, they limited the area to 1 maybe 2 options. If this gets fixed and if the croushing problem is solved stealth will feel more natural. Or a cover option like most 3rd person shouters use would be nice too.

I think you guys have convinced me freedom is the biggest issue. I'm not sure how much crouch will change though (even though I said I wanted it too). There are not a ton of spots where you think to yourself "I wish I had a crouch option". But ofc if a crouch+cover mechanics were introduced they could change the level design to take better advantage of them. Like having barrels, low walls, etc.But I don't think crouching is a silver bullit that will fix everything. For example the AI must also be adressed imo.

Sushiglutton
12-31-2012, 06:19 PM
1) AI: This is one of the most important things in a stealth game. AC3's enemy AI was a big improvement over the dumb-as-bricks guards of the Ezio games, but it was fundamentally broken because it didn't always react in logical ways to the player. There should be clear rules about what the enemies will and won't react to. For example if you're running like a maniac while notorious, it makes sense they would detect you. It does NOT make sense when enemies halfway across a fort magically detect you because you quietly snuck behind their backs outside their line of sight. The guards in AC3 are basically telepathic which is no more realistic than the halfwit guards of AC2. AI should be realistic but adherent to logical rules: act stealthy and you won't be detected. Also, gameplay should always trump realism. Even though AC2's guards may not be realistically smart, the gameplay is still more fun because the rules make sense and are applied fairly. AC3 has more realistic detection, but it makes stealth not fun when the AI keeps detecting you even when you're playing by the rules.

2) Difficulty level: No. AC doesn't need difficulty levels, it just needs better design. If the devs can figure out the right balance between challenging and fun combat and realistic and fun AI, the game could be enjoyed by everyone.

3) Gadgets: I felt AC2 had the exact right amount of gadgets. Beyond that it just started to get unnecessary. The crossbow in ACB was overpowered which made throwing knives entirely unnecessary yet we still got both. Poison darts took away the danger and thrill of being spotted because in AC2 you could only apply poison up close and personal. In ACR you had all these weapons PLUS bombs. AC3 was a step in the right direction by removing some of the unnecessary weapons and replacing them with new, useful tools (like snares). On the other hand, there were rarely reasons or opportunities to use things like rope darts or tripwire bombs. There's no point in adding new gadgets to a game if you're not going to bother making the player at least experiment with them. To add insult to injury, the weapon selection menu was more cumbersome than in the Ezio games, making it more of a hassle to change weapons on the fly.

4) Level/mission design: The increasing linearity didn't start bothering me until ACR. In AC3 it feels less like I'm playing a game and more like watching an interactive movie. Sometimes entire missions are literally nothing but "walk from point A to point B", sometimes several times in a row. That's just ridiculous. The freedom of approach and planning was an important feature in AC1. I understand wanting to make the game more cinematic, but there are ways to balance out cinematic missions and freedom of choice. I'm getting tired of having to run through burning ships within a given amount of time, through a linear path, so that I can watch another cut scene. Why not drop me in the middle of a burning ship and let ME figure out the best way to get out? Make it a challenge to find the most efficient way out. For example, there could be an optional objective for finding a path that is longer but will result in less damage to your character, or a path that is shorter but will force you to jump through a burning window, making you take a hit to your health. That would leave the choice up to the player what they feel the assassin would do in that situation. One thing I hated about playing Connor and, to an extent, Ezio in the later games is that I felt like I was often forced to do things that felt contrary to the nature of the character. Connor did not feel like a character with enough patience to EVER take the stealthy way, yet sometimes I was forced to it by the game. It just felt contrary to how he was written. Similarly, as Ezio became stronger and more unbeatable with each new game, I found myself questioning why he would even bother being stealthy when he could easily just kill everyone in his path. The player should be able to get inside the character's head and make them do things that feel natural for their interpretation of that character. Hence why freedom of approach is so important in the first game. I didn't care that AltaÔr didn't have a strong personality from the beginning; I was creating his personality through playing him. I decided when it felt right for AltaÔr to take the stealthy route or when it felt logical that he would attack everyone head-on.

5) Social stealth: This was practically nonexistent in AC3. There were never enough NPCs around to blend with while escaping from enemies and hiding spots weren't displayed on the mini-map which made escaping a real nuisance. The idea of replacing static groups with only two or three NPCs to blend with is good, but in practice it was often hard to tell which NPCs counted as two or one. The idea is that you should be able to blend with any two NPCs at any time as long as they're close enough, but many times I found that I couldn't blend with two people because for some reason the game only counted them as one. Regarding notoriety, bribing town-criers and ripping down posters feels really old by now. It feels like a hangover mechanic in a game that takes place in an entirely different setting and time period. Why are there children in the game if they don't do anything at all? Why not have the children be part of a notoriety mechanic, like the minstrels? You could bribe children to go and harass guards who are looking for you or to create a commotion in the crowd so you could slip by unnoticed. On the other hand, some children could be unreliable or mischievous and actually work against you, so bribing them would be a game of chance. Maybe they would choose to help you (say, 70% chance) or they could simply take your money and report you to the nearest guard, setting off a chase. That would bring some more character to them.


1) This is very interesting. I have to agree with you that the AI feels a lot more sensitive in AC3. I thought I was beeing a crybaby, so I'm glad to hear others had this issue as well :). So yeah it's not just about making the stealth harder. A lot of it has to do with making it feel fair and consistent, so you have the chance to make a plan. Some of the times I was spotted felt really cheap (but maybe I just suck lol). One idea is to have some kind of visual aid (eagle sense?) to make things more predictable. For example some games like Deus Ex: HR uses a light cone to indicate what the enemies can see. How do you feel about that?

2) I don't think it should have traditional difficulty level. I would prefer a more open, challeneging basic structure and then have systems for assisting weaker gamers. For example you could have a system similar to Super Mario Wii where if you fail a number of times the games gives you the option to complete that section for you (you can take back control at any time). You could also have other visual aids (these should be turned off by more experienced gamers). For example in eagle vision you may see a suggestion of a good route highlighted in gold. Or there could be hints like: "look for a tree branch above the target head" etc. This would allow the game to be enjoyed by everyone :D!!!

3) In general I feel the gameplay in AC is too shallow and wide and should strive to become narrower and deeper. This is also true for gadgets. I agree with you that there are too many gadgets/weapons that functions the same pretty much. Only animations set them apart. I think that every gadget/weapon should feel unique and preferably have a number of different uses. There don't have to be a ton of them. AC:R became pretty ridiculous. I don't think there should be menus at all. The Arkham games used a super elegant quickfire system that worked in combat, stealth and for puzzle solving!

4) I 100% agree with the freedom part, very well written! This is the biggest issue with the entire game and it's a major issue!

Making the gameplay consistent with the character is ofc preferable, it is not super important to me though. I can forgive if they cheat a bit wit that tbh. I'm not sure Connor would never use stealth either. He is a hunter after all. A brutal hunter, sure, but I don't think sneaking up on his prey is beyond him at all.

5) I think the mission design let the game down a bit as it failed to take advantage of many of the games systems. I thought the new crowd blend worked well as a mechanic though. It looked cool and was more varied than before, I don't mind if it is kept. I thought it woked fairly smoothly as well, but I can't say I used it that much (like you said few missions required it), so you may very well be correct about that.

I can see what you mean about the notoriety system feeling a bit old by now. At least there were no posters on rooftops this time lol. Personally I don't mind that this system is fairly forgiving and none punishing though. Sometimes there is something you want to do and it's not nice to be caught in a long chase sequence. I think it is ok as it is and it's not really a core system so if they just left it that is ok with me.

I like you Oliver Twist ideas :)!

Sushiglutton
12-31-2012, 06:26 PM
Perhaps the best way to accomplish that would be to really get some variation in the strength and effectiveness of guards. I was pleased to hear about more specialized guards in AC2, but they really just had one or two little differences between them and stopped there. A brute was just as easily killed as any other guard when you get right down to it. The agile guards just weren't believeable. Ezio is a specialist at climbing/freerunning, there's no equipment that would make some idiot guard suddenly just as quick as Ezio, so I'd say come up with a replacement for that class of guard. And seekers, well, they just fall into the category of "most likely to die first". XD

What I'd like to see (wherever the story goes next) would be a variety of guards defined by different specializations, and by rank. Higher ranked personnel would be better at their given tasks and choosing to confront/circumvent them would be harder if that's what you chose to do. These more skilled guards could be stationed around more prized real estate for assassination purposes or holding items that would give you new options. EX: A high ranked guard might be stationed at a back entrance ot a building or in front of a place where one could easily get up over a wall etc. One might also have the key to a door you wouldn't normally be able to open. The point being, a skilled player could go after a few tough guards to get around a lot of lower ranked ones. The difficulty could vary depending on the usefulness of what's at stake, but ultimatley, those higer ranked guards would have to be pretty **** tough to kill/outsmart to keep up with experienced players.

Side note: wouldn't changing the color of your clothing be a pretty sensible way to reduce notoriety? After all, the general color of what a person's wearing would be the first visual cue someone would use to spot a dangerous individual. That nut in the harbor in AC1 proved that nicely, didn't he?

Especially combat cries out for mor enemy variety imo. There should be some tougher enemies that require a longer string of correct moves to take down. And some should have attacks that requires a slightly different block input (think thugs with knives in Arkham City). It's a cool suggestion by you to have this in stealth too :). If implemented correctly it could def introduce variety in terms of strategies etc.

Your idea to dye clothes to escape guards sounds like the spraypaint mechanic from GTA ;). Not sure how I feel about that tbh lol. It's a bit silly to have your clothes dyed to escape guards, no?

Sushiglutton
12-31-2012, 06:30 PM
I liked this post from the GTA forums(I disagree with the 'AC3 is worst game' part):

somehow Ubisoft managed to make AC3 the worst AC yet. it's not Connor's fault and it's not the story's fault; it's the gameplay.
they essentially broke the most fundamental aspects of AC gameplay that they had been building ever since the first game.

the cover / detection system is ruined. we've been over this before... enemies can spot you from the back of their head while facing the other direction, the entire area is alerted, guards will spawn out of thin air who know EXACTLY where you are, line-of-sight does not exist, etc etc. it's absolutely terrible and every mission that has to do with infiltrating a guarded zone or killing a target without being detected is NO FUN whatsoever. I have NO FUN playing these missions. trying to navigate a guarded base (an area marked in red on the minimap) is the most unrealistic, tedious, boring, and maddening experience I've ever had in an AC game.

Connor is a guy living in the 18th century.
Connor's enemies are cyborgs from the future with heat-seeking, night-vision, 180-degree laser targeting. they can also communicate instantly across the map using their built-in Bluetooth headsets so that every guard in the area is on the same page at all times. it's f*****g absurd.

basic gameplay is utterly broken in AC3.
in fact, the ONLY thing they did well in AC3 is the Naval missions. those are awesome. everything else feels like a chore with almost no enjoyment attached to it.

This post is a more critical and more aggressive than what I feel ;)! However it does have a point that the game can actually be a bit too unforgiving at times. And the hive mind behaviour is annoying in any game. I thought the forts were fun to do though (the best missions in the game). It is possible to sneak through them and complete all objectives. Sometimes it does feel cheap.

Sushiglutton
12-31-2012, 06:33 PM
Thanks a lot to everyone who has participated so far ;)!!! Really awesome posts, now Ubi can't say we are just whining. Let's keep helping Ubi to make the best game ever :)!

Avagantamoz
12-31-2012, 06:54 PM
I just want to be able to kill somebody with my bow and not get detected while hiding in a bush or something. So tired of picking off the last guy in a group and suddenly his whole gang is after me. The bow is supposedly a silent weapon, so if the last guy in a group gets killed in one shot the others should not be alerted right away, let alone immediately spot me in the bush I'm in. Also, I hate how the rope dart is pretty much useless. I've got a 100% in the game and I've still found no time where the rope dart would be the better choice compared to something else. Hell, I still use it just because the animations are cool, but the fact that it can't be use in any sort of steatlh is annoying. I feel like everybody within a certain distance to me is instantly alerted to my presence anytime I SILENTLY choke somebody out from high above with the rope dart.

F0RTY SEVIN
12-31-2012, 10:04 PM
I think you guys have convinced me freedom is the biggest issue. I'm not sure how much crouch will change though (even though I said I wanted it too). There are not a ton of spots where you think to yourself "I wish I had a crouch option". But ofc if a crouch+cover mechanics were introduced they could change the level design to take better advantage of them. Like having barrels, low walls, etc.But I don't think crouching is a silver bullit that will fix everything. For example the AI must also be adressed imo.

I can't go 5 seconds without wishing I had a crouch button :)! There are plenty of waist high objects that I wish I could hide behind (they aren't littered around like Gears of War but they are there). Also crouched movement just makes more sense for stealth with the speed being faster than walking while the sound is quieter than sprinting.

SixKeys
01-01-2013, 12:34 AM
I haven't played Hitman: A yet http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20120411.419/images/smilies/frown.png, but if they have a good system I say go for it! I think picking up stuff from the ground is cool, but that complicates things a lot no? I mean making so many objects interactive. I'm thinking if Connor always can throw a stone or something to lure enemies that is enough. What do you think?

Picking up weapons on the fly was already a bit clunky in AC3 and not as smooth as they made it look in trailers and demos. If every rock and twig was interactive, I can only imagine how frustrating that would get.

However, I like the idea in general. If there's one thing I miss from ACR it's the distraction bombs. So many times in AC3 I wished there was a way to distract the guards by throwing something and sneak past them unnoticed. They could just show an animation of Connor picking something up from the ground and then aiming it like Ezio with the bombs.


II think the face-hiding thing is actually the "protect agaisnt fire"- animation that they just put in the demo? For something like that you need disguises I think. I mean no point hiding your face if your dressed like Connor is! Disguises is an interesting idea. In some story missions disguises are used, but maybe there could be a system for using them more dynamically. Like you could steal outfits from guards and others. Or Connor could have outfits for certain occasions/social classes/types of clubs etc? How do you feel about having more disguises etc?

I've been begging for disguises in AC for ages. When I heard that AC: Liberation had them, I got so excited because I thought it was an indication that there was a similar system in AC3. They had the right idea in Liberation with different disguises limiting you in certain situations while giving you freedom in others. Dressed as a noble Aveline could get into parties and woo guards but couldn't freerun because that would be strange behavior for a lady. In a slave outfit she could blend in with workers but didn't have much protective gear if she was spotted. As an assassin she had the most freedom and weapons, but it also made her instantly recognizable. It's such a simple yet genius concept and I'm disappointed they didn't do something similar in AC3.


1) This is very interesting. I have to agree with you that the AI feels a lot more sensitive in AC3. I thought I was beeing a crybaby, so I'm glad to hear others had this issue as well http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20120411.419/images/smilies/smile.png. So yeah it's not just about making the stealth harder. A lot of it has to do with making it feel fair and consistent, so you have the chance to make a plan. Some of the times I was spotted felt really cheap (but maybe I just suck lol). One idea is to have some kind of visual aid (eagle sense?) to make things more predictable. For example some games like Deus Ex: HR uses a light cone to indicate what the enemies can see. How do you feel about that?

I prefer the AC games looking as realistic and uncluttered as possible, that's why I always strip the HUD elements to a minimum. I wouldn't really like a clear line of sight indicator as that would take away from the realism. I just think they need to find the right balance between AC2 and AC3 AI.


2) I don't think it should have traditional difficulty level. I would prefer a more open, challeneging basic structure and then have systems for assisting weaker gamers. For example you could have a system similar to Super Mario Wii where if you fail a number of times the games gives you the option to complete that section for you (you can take back control at any time). You could also have other visual aids (these should be turned off by more experienced gamers). For example in eagle vision you may see a suggestion of a good route highlighted in gold. Or there could be hints like: "look for a tree branch above the target head" etc. This would allow the game to be enjoyed by everyone http://static5.cdn.ubi.com/u/ubiforums/20120411.419/images/smilies/biggrin.png!!!

Honestly, the AC games have never been hard. They don't need any more handholding than is already being done by default. I don't see the point of the system you're describing. If you think a game is so hard you need the computer to take over, why even bother playing?
Visual aids shouldn't be too obvious or obtrusive. It comes down to freedom, yet again. If the game gives enough options for the player to choose their own path, there wouldn't be any need for pointers like "look for branches above the target's head" etc.


Making the gameplay consistent with the character is ofc preferable, it is not super important to me though. I can forgive if they cheat a bit wit that tbh. I'm not sure Connor would never use stealth either. He is a hunter after all. A brutal hunter, sure, but I don't think sneaking up on his prey is beyond him at all.

I could agree with this if it had been better shown in the story. In AC2 Ezio started out as brash and impatient, he would have attacked his first target head-on if Paola hadn't pointed out to him how foolish this was. That's why Ezio needed to learn stealth from her. In Connor's case, I think they should have focused on showing how he learned patience from Achilles or through hunting with his friend. But this is a storytelling complaint and kind of off-topic, so I won't go on about it. I just think that in an AC game the player should always be shown that there is a time for stealth and time for action, and the character we play should feel at home with both approaches. The linearity and forced stealth missions ("do not be detected") is increasingly forcing us to do things in the way the devs themselves want the mission to be done when there should always be a minimum of two options.

Edit: I should also mention that I really like the idea of dyeing your clothes as part of decreasing notoriety. If not dyes, then disguises. It shouldn't be possible to change clothes while you're being chased, but once you already have two stars, disguising yourself or dyeing your clothes should decrease it back to one star.

Sushiglutton
01-01-2013, 12:48 AM
I just want to be able to kill somebody with my bow and not get detected while hiding in a bush or something. So tired of picking off the last guy in a group and suddenly his whole gang is after me. The bow is supposedly a silent weapon, so if the last guy in a group gets killed in one shot the others should not be alerted right away, let alone immediately spot me in the bush I'm in. Also, I hate how the rope dart is pretty much useless. I've got a 100% in the game and I've still found no time where the rope dart would be the better choice compared to something else. Hell, I still use it just because the animations are cool, but the fact that it can't be use in any sort of steatlh is annoying. I feel like everybody within a certain distance to me is instantly alerted to my presence anytime I SILENTLY choke somebody out from high above with the rope dart.

Those are good points! Silenced weapons should be silenced, that's kind of the point. That said, the bow needs to have some negative aspect to it, otherwise it becomes overpowered in stealth. I think thŠt if enemies find a body or an arrow even it should put them into a permament suspicious state. That way you have to pick targets for your bow carefully and preferably shoot them where they are out of sight for other guards (or run up to them and hide their bodies when they are down).

The ropedart is mostly useable in the frontier (but even there it is mostly for show). For some reason the mission designers decided to put very few missions out in the frontier. And the ones they made are "enjoyed" by horesback. Really weird design choice in hindsight!

Sushiglutton
01-01-2013, 12:50 AM
I can't go 5 seconds without wishing I had a crouch button :)! There are plenty of waist high objects that I wish I could hide behind (they aren't littered around like Gears of War but they are there). Also crouched movement just makes more sense for stealth with the speed being faster than walking while the sound is quieter than sprinting.

Haha fair enough ;)! I think the fast walk is pretty badass though (especially Ezios version). But yeah being able to crouch is a technique assassins should learn at a pretty young age.

I'll come back to your reply tomorrow Sixkeys :)

Sushiglutton
01-01-2013, 11:50 AM
1) Picking up weapons on the fly was already a bit clunky in AC3 and not as smooth as they made it look in trailers and demos. If every rock and twig was interactive, I can only imagine how frustrating that would get.

However, I like the idea in general. If there's one thing I miss from ACR it's the distraction bombs. So many times in AC3 I wished there was a way to distract the guards by throwing something and sneak past them unnoticed. They could just show an animation of Connor picking something up from the ground and then aiming it like Ezio with the bombs.



2)I've been begging for disguises in AC for ages. When I heard that AC: Liberation had them, I got so excited because I thought it was an indication that there was a similar system in AC3. They had the right idea in Liberation with different disguises limiting you in certain situations while giving you freedom in others. Dressed as a noble Aveline could get into parties and woo guards but couldn't freerun because that would be strange behavior for a lady. In a slave outfit she could blend in with workers but didn't have much protective gear if she was spotted. As an assassin she had the most freedom and weapons, but it also made her instantly recognizable. It's such a simple yet genius concept and I'm disappointed they didn't do something similar in AC3.



3) I prefer the AC games looking as realistic and uncluttered as possible, that's why I always strip the HUD elements to a minimum. I wouldn't really like a clear line of sight indicator as that would take away from the realism. I just think they need to find the right balance between AC2 and AC3 AI.



4) Honestly, the AC games have never been hard. They don't need any more handholding than is already being done by default. I don't see the point of the system you're describing. If you think a game is so hard you need the computer to take over, why even bother playing?
Visual aids shouldn't be too obvious or obtrusive. It comes down to freedom, yet again. If the game gives enough options for the player to choose their own path, there wouldn't be any need for pointers like "look for branches above the target's head" etc.


5)I could agree with this if it had been better shown in the story. In AC2 Ezio started out as brash and impatient, he would have attacked his first target head-on if Paola hadn't pointed out to him how foolish this was. That's why Ezio needed to learn stealth from her. In Connor's case, I think they should have focused on showing how he learned patience from Achilles or through hunting with his friend. But this is a storytelling complaint and kind of off-topic, so I won't go on about it. I just think that in an AC game the player should always be shown that there is a time for stealth and time for action, and the character we play should feel at home with both approaches. The linearity and forced stealth missions ("do not be detected") is increasingly forcing us to do things in the way the devs themselves want the mission to be done when there should always be a minimum of two options.

6) Edit: I should also mention that I really like the idea of dyeing your clothes as part of decreasing notoriety. If not dyes, then disguises. It shouldn't be possible to change clothes while you're being chased, but once you already have two stars, disguising yourself or dyeing your clothes should decrease it back to one star.


1) Seems like we agree on this one then.

2) I'm torn on how I feel about disguises. The assassins outfit is real cool and I can see why Ubi wants Connor to use it as much as possible. A system where you are instantly recognized on the streets of Boston when you were it would be terrible imo (haven't played Liberation, so not sure exactly how it worked there). In assassination missions I prefer to climb, sneak around, assassinate guards, over just walking in wearing a disguise. Also having to switch between disguises can become a bit cumbersome.

At the other hand in some situations going for a dsiguise makes a lot of sense. For example when you are infiltrating a party and so on. I guess that what I'm trying to say is that overall I think the current system that automatically uses disguises for some story missions is probably the one I prefer tbh.

3) I was thinking that it should be a part of the Eagle Vision system, not in normal view. That way you could get a perfect grasp of how the game actually calculates detection. But I can see that it's a bit unrealistic. It could be an optinal aid.

4) My thinking here is that many of us want a more open and therefor more complex mission design. However AC is played by millions of people of different skill levels. Many play AC just for the story. They don't want to get stuck or feel frustrated. They have no wish to be challenged, they just want the story to progress. I think it's important, if you decide to make the mission design more complex, that you also provide help for these gamers.

You mention options and as I said I think these systems should be totally optional. With the right settings, you would never notice they existed! However they are needed so that Ubi can make the type of game we want without alienating a large fraction of their fanbase!

5) I actually don't mind the desynchonization mechanic when you are detected. It does make sense to force stealth for some missions. I think the alternative (you are caught, but still able to fight) creates a lot of really awkward situations. For story reasons it also makes sense that some assassins were performed stealthy. You could have more organic reasons to force stealth (like the target escaping, or heavily armed guards you can't face in combat), which would be preferable. I think the way desynchonization works is pretty much ok though.

Even when stealth is forced there could still be a tons of options of how you approach the missions (which path you choose, which enemies you choose to kill and how etc), if Ubi opens up the level design.


6) I think dyeing to lower notoriety is bad for a number of reasons. First it reminds me too much of the spraypaint mechanic from GTA. Secondly, if you think about a real world scenario, it's just a bit too dumb. I mean Connor is wanted for murder so he goes to the tailor to get his clothes dyed. A time consuming process and even when it is finished he's still armed to the teeth and has his classic silhouette. Third when you have lost your notoriety you would have to go back to the shop to get your favourite colors back, which is pretty tedious.

SkiesSeven
01-01-2013, 12:01 PM
Ubisoft have to learn a thing or two from Dishonored.

The Stealth gameplay is absolutely amazing in that game.

Sushiglutton
01-01-2013, 04:46 PM
Ubisoft have to learn a thing or two from Dishonored.

The Stealth gameplay is absolutely amazing in that game.

I have sadly not played that game either. Are there in particular things that were made extra well in that game?

comicexpress
01-01-2013, 08:18 PM
1) Seems like we agree on this one then.

6) I think dyeing to lower notoriety is bad for a number of reasons. First it reminds me too much of the spraypaint mechanic from GTA. Secondly, if you think about a real world scenario, it's just a bit too dumb. I mean Connor is wanted for murder so he goes to the tailor to get his clothes dyed. A time consuming process and even when it is finished he's still armed to the teeth and has his classic silhouette. Third when you have lost your notoriety you would have to go back to the shop to get your favourite colors back, which is pretty tedious.

I have to agree with this. What's the point of "dying" your clothes to lose notoriety, and then having to go back to change again, takes just as much time to rip a poster down as it would to "dye" your clothes. Probably be cheaper to bribe the heralds too :p

LordWolv
01-01-2013, 08:37 PM
Before I started playing ACIII for the first time, I'd played through Hitman: Absolution. What pained me the most about ACIII was how woefully primitive the stealth system is compared to Hitman. I was going to make some points, but everyone before me in this thread has made them. What I will say, though, that for a game with 'Assassin' in its name, the stealth is actually some of the worst when you compare it to other stealth orientated games like Hitman. It's not good enough, even if Ubi took a step in the right direction with the corner stealth and whistling. Unless they're going to drastically sort it out in AC4 I wouldn't mind it being renamed Mercenary's Creed. That's the impression I'm getting from it these days.

shobhit7777777
01-01-2013, 10:21 PM
This is beautiful.

Thank you OP and all contributors...and a happy new year to you all.

Most of what I would like to say has been said. I'm just glad this issue has been brought up.

Sushiglutton
01-01-2013, 10:53 PM
Before I started playing ACIII for the first time, I'd played through Hitman: Absolution. What pained me the most about ACIII was how woefully primitive the stealth system is compared to Hitman. I was going to make some points, but everyone before me in this thread has made them. What I will say, though, that for a game with 'Assassin' in its name, the stealth is actually some of the worst when you compare it to other stealth orientated games like Hitman. It's not good enough, even if Ubi took a step in the right direction with the corner stealth and whistling. Unless they're going to drastically sort it out in AC4 I wouldn't mind it being renamed Mercenary's Creed. That's the impression I'm getting from it these days.

Even though the points have been mentioned I'm still curious to hear what you consider to be the most important differences between Hitman and AC3 in terms of stealth mechanics. Like I said in my OP I'm pretty inexperienced when it comes to stealth and I haven't played for example Hitman or Dishonored. But I have to agree with you that my general feeling is that the gameplay in AC just isn't good enough for a big AAA game.

Sushiglutton
01-01-2013, 10:58 PM
This is beautiful.

Thank you OP and all contributors...and a happy new year to you all.

Most of what I would like to say has been said. I'm just glad this issue has been brought up.

Thank you :)!!! Happy New Year to you as well! I'm just really passionate about this franchise and hope that we as a community can help Ubi to push the gameplay for the three core gameplay pillars (stealth, combat and freeerunning) to the quality they should be. We allready know that they are fantastic world-builders, great storytellers, with a brilliant animation team. That's why it crushes my heart that the gameplay is still so mediocre.

SixKeys
01-01-2013, 11:20 PM
2) I'm torn on how I feel about disguises. The assassins outfit is real cool and I can see why Ubi wants Connor to use it as much as possible. A system where you are instantly recognized on the streets of Boston when you were it would be terrible imo (haven't played Liberation, so not sure exactly how it worked there). In assassination missions I prefer to climb, sneak around, assassinate guards, over just walking in wearing a disguise. Also having to switch between disguises can become a bit cumbersome.

At the other hand in some situations going for a dsiguise makes a lot of sense. For example when you are infiltrating a party and so on. I guess that what I'm trying to say is that overall I think the current system that automatically uses disguises for some story missions is probably the one I prefer tbh.

One thing I really wish they would introduce in the single-player is a customization system similar to the multiplayer. In the MP you can customize individual parts of your character: headgear (hood/no hood, hat, scarf), hairstyle, arms, legs, torso, cape, dyes, emblems etc. That way they could still keep the classic assassin look, but players could choose to customize it to their liking. It would also get rid of the neverending pleas for allowing us to keep the hood on or off. :p In AC3 it would have been awesome if the feathers and furs you collected could be fashioned as part of your outfit. Would have loved to give Connor's assassin robes a more native look by giving him a raccoon skin hat or attaching extra feathers to his outfit.


5) I actually don't mind the desynchonization mechanic when you are detected. It does make sense to force stealth for some missions. I think the alternative (you are caught, but still able to fight) creates a lot of really awkward situations. For story reasons it also makes sense that some assassins were performed stealthy. You could have more organic reasons to force stealth (like the target escaping, or heavily armed guards you can't face in combat), which would be preferable. I think the way desynchonization works is pretty much ok though.

Personally I don't mind it either because I enjoy stealth, but there are many who complain that instant desynch upon detection is just as restrictive as forcing the player to barge in Rambo-style. For assassination missions these games should always have a minimum of two possible approaches (stealth or action). Linearity is okay on occasion, but not when it comes down to the actual meat and bones of this franchise, the assassinations. That's where player creativity is most important and should be rewarded, not punished.

Sushiglutton
01-01-2013, 11:33 PM
1) One thing I really wish they would introduce in the single-player is a customization system similar to the multiplayer. In the MP you can customize individual parts of your character: headgear (hood/no hood, hat, scarf), hairstyle, arms, legs, torso, cape, dyes, emblems etc. That way they could still keep the classic assassin look, but players could choose to customize it to their liking. It would also get rid of the neverending pleas for allowing us to keep the hood on or off. :p In AC3 it would have been awesome if the feathers and furs you collected could be fashioned as part of your outfit. Would have loved to give Connor's assassin robes a more native look by giving him a raccoon skin hat or attaching extra feathers to his outfit.



2) Personally I don't mind it either because I enjoy stealth, but there are many who complain that instant desynch upon detection is just as restrictive as forcing the player to barge in Rambo-style. For assassination missions these games should always have a minimum of two possible approaches (stealth or action). Linearity is okay on occasion, but not when it comes down to the actual meat and bones of this franchise, the assassinations. That's where player creativity is most important and should be rewarded, not punished.

1) I must admit I'm not that interested in customization. I dress pretty sloppy and don't care that much about my appearence in real life either :p. The hood thing would be a bit cool though. Like when you step into a bar, take your hood off and then beat up everyone in there ;).

2) The way I see is that even if stealth is the only allowed approach there is no reason that the game should feel linear, or like there is a lack of options. If the stealth is well designed there should still be a vast number of ways to complete a mission and that's where the creativity comes in. But you are correct that some people dislike the forced stealth, so it's a matter of opinion for sure.

SkiesSeven
01-02-2013, 02:20 AM
I have sadly not played that game either. Are there in particular things that were made extra well in that game?

Dishonored's Stealth component is not like Hitman or Metal Gear Solid where it's a very 'strict' kind of Stealth. You actually have two ways to play Dishonored - Low Chaos, and High Chaos. At the end of every mission it shows you your stats. If you played with a low-kill count, you're rewarded by encountering less hostiles in the following missions, and the outcome isn't as dark when you finish the game. It is actually possibly to play the entire game without killing a single A.I. It is a game that demands creativity, but never unfairly. And although Dishonored is fairly linear, when compared to a huge open world like AC, it still beats AC on stealth, and in it's creative approach. The challenges you encounter never ever feel cheap. If you die in Dishonored, you'll know exactly what you did wrong and when you repeat the attempt to get past a certain area you'll have explored some more, found more secrets, and ultimately it all adds up to something very rewarding. You'll feel like a true Assassin when you play this game.

Jexx21
01-02-2013, 02:32 AM
but the first Assassins weren't exactly stealthy, they were practically the equivalent of today's terrorists in terms of what they did.

Assassin_M
01-02-2013, 02:38 AM
but the first Assassins weren't exactly stealthy, they were practically the equivalent of today's terrorists in terms of what they did.
They used stealth to an extent. True, they ensured their acts were committed to be seen by many, but the approach was definitely stealthy..

Gi1t
01-02-2013, 04:23 AM
but the first Assassins weren't exactly stealthy, they were practically the equivalent of today's terrorists in terms of what they did.

But once exposed, I would think they would either die or run like hell, not pull out a sword and stay there slaying all comers until none remain.

I like being able to interpret for myself what the appropriate level of stealth is. I like the idea of being able to stay hidden most of the time but accasionally allow myself to be seen if I see fit to do so, but I don't want it to be less trouble to sit there and kill every single guard than it is to sneak by them or even to just let them kill me. XD

shobhit7777777
01-02-2013, 08:31 AM
Thank you :)!!! Happy New Year to you as well! I'm just really passionate about this franchise and hope that we as a community can help Ubi to push the gameplay for the three core gameplay pillars (stealth, combat and freeerunning) to the quality they should be. We allready know that they are fantastic world-builders, great storytellers, with a brilliant animation team. That's why it crushes my heart that the gameplay is still so mediocre.

I completely agree

Now back on topic:

I'd like to see comprehensive improvements in the following:

1. Mission Design -

AC3 has the basics of stealth and is actually pretty robust....the missions however are horribly designed.
Take a look at some of this year's stealth games
Dishonored
Hitman Absolution
Mark of the Ninja
Far Cry 3

The Stealth in the games feels awesome because of - Options.

The player has a lot of room to move around and try out different techniques. The missions in AC Next should be designed around large sandboxes with minimal designer input for a dynamic stealth experience

and this leads us into my second point -

2. Solid controls, full player control and clear feedback -

Ever try hiding in a bush....inch forward and have Connor stand up like a moron and get spotted?

That is what this point is addressing. The game's insistence on extreme handholding and lack of complete control of a character really creates a clunky and un-smooth player experience. Failing because your automaton character does something unimaginable stupid or is unable to "sneak" is extremely annoying

See, in a game like AC...where the player-character connect has been traditionally VERY strong...the aforementioned issues really take a **** on your experience. I mean just look at how we fluidly and smoothly move through crowds and climb architecture.....THAT is a player-character connect with minimal "lag".
The stealth controls should mimic this,

In a stealth game it is extremely important for the player intent to be completely understood and carried out by the game in terms of locomotion and basic movement.

Feedback also plays an important role here. Often times I've been just spotted by guards halfway across Boston....with low notoriety. Or a guard immediately spots me...and starts attacking...IDK what and where did I go wrong. Was I being watched? IDK the SSI was too off-screen and by the time I locate it....Redcoat #456 has opened fire.

3. AI, AI, AI...AI-

This is the single most important aspect. AI. AI is the primary element in stealth games that the player interacts with. We are constantly engaged in a dialogue with the AI. The language is the game world and the player abilities.

having a dialogue with a thick as **** AI is like talking to a - you guessed it - a brick. It is uninteresting.

Dishonored, MoTN, FC3 all have an AI with varying levels of alarm, investigative routines etc.
The Player character has several abilities to mess with them
The level design facilitates some interesting and puzzle-like AI placement

The AI in AC3 is telepathic and I have experienced first hand how they immediately inform ALL surrounding troops to your presence..without actually communicating or even being within hearing distance....and locking onto my position without LOS while chasing me. This is ********.

Hitman Absolution deals with this problem beautifully and actually turns it into a full fledged gameplay mechanic and viable and extremely engaging tactic

I'd like AC Next to have guards behaving in a more human-like manner. Investigating things like dead bodies, sounds, alerts, searching for Connor with more urgency and for a longer period of time etc. I want guards to have localized alerts and only become alerted when they have sight of me or see me being chased.

Have Connor the ability to give up and be lead to the neatest "Detention center" - like a Cover Escort of sorts
One guard seeing and detecting you is NOT a detection if you've quickly killed him - have a timer of sorts...kill the dude within 5 seconds and he cannot cry for help and hence raise an alarm
Alarm tiers in certain levels and areas leading to investigative patrols and higher AI density - civilians are turned out of these areas making it a "Red" zone and harder to blend in
Smart AI which recognizes chained events. Patrol 1 was killed by a bomb....Patrol 2 was killed by a mine...Patrol 3 recognizes this pattern...and doesn't fall for blatant and obvious bomb traps or diversions.

Telepathy and Apathy needs to go


5. More abilities for the player to interact with the environment -

Throw rocks, fire arrows to create diversions, tap a tree to create sound, mimic animal calls....just a plethora of options to mess with the AI. And each should, ideally, have appropriate reactions to it...Throw a rock...and follow it with an animal call...the guard will cease investigation and go back to normal patrolling
Fire an arrow and try an animal call...the guard senses mischief and reacts accordingly - searches more vigorously and yells stuff like "Nice try!'

How do you use the above?

Well for a super ninja..the ability to lure and sneak by guards using stones and animal calls would lead to a bloodless entrance to a guarded zone..not to mention that you can chuck rocks and mimic calls from anywhere

And for a more aggressive yet sneaky player it allows the option to lure out guards and take them out. Fire an arrow...the guard follows...finds the arrow...and begins searching...mimic a call and lure the guard in..take him out.

The way the AI reacts would lead to dynamic and interesting situations. I'd love to be able to send a guard running across country on a wild goose chase looking for a cougar who has mastered the art of archery.


Note: I doubt most of the suggestions are viable....but its just a suggestion regarding things we'd like to see and gameplay we'd like to experience.

Also as most of you have touched upon the issue

SOCIAL STEALTH needs to be really really improved and worked upon.

Sushiglutton
01-02-2013, 02:31 PM
I completely agree

Now back on topic:

I'd like to see comprehensive improvements in the following:

1. Mission Design -

AC3 has the basics of stealth and is actually pretty robust....the missions however are horribly designed.
Take a look at some of this year's stealth games
Dishonored
Hitman Absolution
Mark of the Ninja
Far Cry 3

The Stealth in the games feels awesome because of - Options.

The player has a lot of room to move around and try out different techniques. The missions in AC Next should be designed around large sandboxes with minimal designer input for a dynamic stealth experience

and this leads us into my second point -

2. Solid controls, full player control and clear feedback -

Ever try hiding in a bush....inch forward and have Connor stand up like a moron and get spotted?

That is what this point is addressing. The game's insistence on extreme handholding and lack of complete control of a character really creates a clunky and un-smooth player experience. Failing because your automaton character does something unimaginable stupid or is unable to "sneak" is extremely annoying

See, in a game like AC...where the player-character connect has been traditionally VERY strong...the aforementioned issues really take a **** on your experience. I mean just look at how we fluidly and smoothly move through crowds and climb architecture.....THAT is a player-character connect with minimal "lag".
The stealth controls should mimic this,

In a stealth game it is extremely important for the player intent to be completely understood and carried out by the game in terms of locomotion and basic movement.

Feedback also plays an important role here. Often times I've been just spotted by guards halfway across Boston....with low notoriety. Or a guard immediately spots me...and starts attacking...IDK what and where did I go wrong. Was I being watched? IDK the SSI was too off-screen and by the time I locate it....Redcoat #456 has opened fire.

3. AI, AI, AI...AI-

This is the single most important aspect. AI. AI is the primary element in stealth games that the player interacts with. We are constantly engaged in a dialogue with the AI. The language is the game world and the player abilities.

having a dialogue with a thick as **** AI is like talking to a - you guessed it - a brick. It is uninteresting.

Dishonored, MoTN, FC3 all have an AI with varying levels of alarm, investigative routines etc.
The Player character has several abilities to mess with them
The level design facilitates some interesting and puzzle-like AI placement

The AI in AC3 is telepathic and I have experienced first hand how they immediately inform ALL surrounding troops to your presence..without actually communicating or even being within hearing distance....and locking onto my position without LOS while chasing me. This is ********.

Hitman Absolution deals with this problem beautifully and actually turns it into a full fledged gameplay mechanic and viable and extremely engaging tactic

I'd like AC Next to have guards behaving in a more human-like manner. Investigating things like dead bodies, sounds, alerts, searching for Connor with more urgency and for a longer period of time etc. I want guards to have localized alerts and only become alerted when they have sight of me or see me being chased.

Have Connor the ability to give up and be lead to the neatest "Detention center" - like a Cover Escort of sorts
One guard seeing and detecting you is NOT a detection if you've quickly killed him - have a timer of sorts...kill the dude within 5 seconds and he cannot cry for help and hence raise an alarm
Alarm tiers in certain levels and areas leading to investigative patrols and higher AI density - civilians are turned out of these areas making it a "Red" zone and harder to blend in
Smart AI which recognizes chained events. Patrol 1 was killed by a bomb....Patrol 2 was killed by a mine...Patrol 3 recognizes this pattern...and doesn't fall for blatant and obvious bomb traps or diversions.

Telepathy and Apathy needs to go


5. More abilities for the player to interact with the environment -

Throw rocks, fire arrows to create diversions, tap a tree to create sound, mimic animal calls....just a plethora of options to mess with the AI. And each should, ideally, have appropriate reactions to it...Throw a rock...and follow it with an animal call...the guard will cease investigation and go back to normal patrolling
Fire an arrow and try an animal call...the guard senses mischief and reacts accordingly - searches more vigorously and yells stuff like "Nice try!'

How do you use the above?

Well for a super ninja..the ability to lure and sneak by guards using stones and animal calls would lead to a bloodless entrance to a guarded zone..not to mention that you can chuck rocks and mimic calls from anywhere

And for a more aggressive yet sneaky player it allows the option to lure out guards and take them out. Fire an arrow...the guard follows...finds the arrow...and begins searching...mimic a call and lure the guard in..take him out.

The way the AI reacts would lead to dynamic and interesting situations. I'd love to be able to send a guard running across country on a wild goose chase looking for a cougar who has mastered the art of archery.


Note: I doubt most of the suggestions are viable....but its just a suggestion regarding things we'd like to see and gameplay we'd like to experience.

Also as most of you have touched upon the issue

SOCIAL STEALTH needs to be really really improved and worked upon.


Great post :D! Ok here it goes...

1) This seems to be a point that everyone agrees upon in this thread. Without space and options stealth is not that fun, even if you have the best mechanics in the world.

2) I also touched upon the unprecise controls for stealth in my post on the front page, but with a slightly different angle. I think we have the same basic idea though. Movement is too automated and needs a bit more player control (not a lot, a bit!). It is too unprecise which leads too cheap feeling fails. You used the example of stalking zones. I agree that when you are close to the edge it feels iffy, because you don't know when Connor will stand up and expose himself.

There are other situations as well. Like when you know a guard aproaches and you need to run to a hiding place of some kind. It's too easy for Connor to start jumping on low objects or climb a wall etc. Then you get stuck, the guard turns the corner, mission's over :(. They need to tweak climbing, and jumping up on low objects so it doesn't feel as random.

Sometime things are not climbable that should be, or you can't climb in a certain direction for some reason. This leads to frustration when you get caught because of it. It's super important that the stealth levels are polished to get rid of such unevenness.

3) Well written :)! YOu are correct that a fleshed out AI is king in stealth games! There should be some sort of middle ground between being spotted and full alarm. Like you have a chance to revenge your misstake and keep hidden. I also agree the AI is unpredictable in a bad way in terms of what it sees. "Telepathy and Apathy needs to go" <---- this is a nice slogan!

5) To me messing with and manipulating the NPCs is the most fun part about stealth and the more options we have to do so the better it is. It truly turns "the dialogue" you spoke of in point 3 into a two-way communication! AC has moved many of these abilities to the recruits, which I think is a misstake for severeal reasons. Give these abilities back to Connor, add a couple and then ditch the recruits imo.

Sushiglutton
01-02-2013, 02:33 PM
Dishonored's Stealth component is not like Hitman or Metal Gear Solid where it's a very 'strict' kind of Stealth. You actually have two ways to play Dishonored - Low Chaos, and High Chaos. At the end of every mission it shows you your stats. If you played with a low-kill count, you're rewarded by encountering less hostiles in the following missions, and the outcome isn't as dark when you finish the game. It is actually possibly to play the entire game without killing a single A.I. It is a game that demands creativity, but never unfairly. And although Dishonored is fairly linear, when compared to a huge open world like AC, it still beats AC on stealth, and in it's creative approach. The challenges you encounter never ever feel cheap. If you die in Dishonored, you'll know exactly what you did wrong and when you repeat the attempt to get past a certain area you'll have explored some more, found more secrets, and ultimately it all adds up to something very rewarding. You'll feel like a true Assassin when you play this game.

Thanks for the summary, those sound like good qualities indeed!

misterB2001
01-02-2013, 03:02 PM
I completely agree

Now back on topic:

I'd like to see comprehensive improvements in the following:

1. Mission Design -

AC3 has the basics of stealth and is actually pretty robust....the missions however are horribly designed.
Take a look at some of this year's stealth games
Dishonored
Hitman Absolution
Mark of the Ninja
Far Cry 3

The Stealth in the games feels awesome because of - Options.

The player has a lot of room to move around and try out different techniques. The missions in AC Next should be designed around large sandboxes with minimal designer input for a dynamic stealth experience

and this leads us into my second point -

2. Solid controls, full player control and clear feedback -

Ever try hiding in a bush....inch forward and have Connor stand up like a moron and get spotted?

That is what this point is addressing. The game's insistence on extreme handholding and lack of complete control of a character really creates a clunky and un-smooth player experience. Failing because your automaton character does something unimaginable stupid or is unable to "sneak" is extremely annoying

See, in a game like AC...where the player-character connect has been traditionally VERY strong...the aforementioned issues really take a **** on your experience. I mean just look at how we fluidly and smoothly move through crowds and climb architecture.....THAT is a player-character connect with minimal "lag".
The stealth controls should mimic this,

In a stealth game it is extremely important for the player intent to be completely understood and carried out by the game in terms of locomotion and basic movement.

Feedback also plays an important role here. Often times I've been just spotted by guards halfway across Boston....with low notoriety. Or a guard immediately spots me...and starts attacking...IDK what and where did I go wrong. Was I being watched? IDK the SSI was too off-screen and by the time I locate it....Redcoat #456 has opened fire.

3. AI, AI, AI...AI-

This is the single most important aspect. AI. AI is the primary element in stealth games that the player interacts with. We are constantly engaged in a dialogue with the AI. The language is the game world and the player abilities.

having a dialogue with a thick as **** AI is like talking to a - you guessed it - a brick. It is uninteresting.

Dishonored, MoTN, FC3 all have an AI with varying levels of alarm, investigative routines etc.
The Player character has several abilities to mess with them
The level design facilitates some interesting and puzzle-like AI placement

The AI in AC3 is telepathic and I have experienced first hand how they immediately inform ALL surrounding troops to your presence..without actually communicating or even being within hearing distance....and locking onto my position without LOS while chasing me. This is ********.

Hitman Absolution deals with this problem beautifully and actually turns it into a full fledged gameplay mechanic and viable and extremely engaging tactic

I'd like AC Next to have guards behaving in a more human-like manner. Investigating things like dead bodies, sounds, alerts, searching for Connor with more urgency and for a longer period of time etc. I want guards to have localized alerts and only become alerted when they have sight of me or see me being chased.

Have Connor the ability to give up and be lead to the neatest "Detention center" - like a Cover Escort of sorts
One guard seeing and detecting you is NOT a detection if you've quickly killed him - have a timer of sorts...kill the dude within 5 seconds and he cannot cry for help and hence raise an alarm
Alarm tiers in certain levels and areas leading to investigative patrols and higher AI density - civilians are turned out of these areas making it a "Red" zone and harder to blend in
Smart AI which recognizes chained events. Patrol 1 was killed by a bomb....Patrol 2 was killed by a mine...Patrol 3 recognizes this pattern...and doesn't fall for blatant and obvious bomb traps or diversions.

Telepathy and Apathy needs to go


5. More abilities for the player to interact with the environment -

Throw rocks, fire arrows to create diversions, tap a tree to create sound, mimic animal calls....just a plethora of options to mess with the AI. And each should, ideally, have appropriate reactions to it...Throw a rock...and follow it with an animal call...the guard will cease investigation and go back to normal patrolling
Fire an arrow and try an animal call...the guard senses mischief and reacts accordingly - searches more vigorously and yells stuff like "Nice try!'

How do you use the above?

Well for a super ninja..the ability to lure and sneak by guards using stones and animal calls would lead to a bloodless entrance to a guarded zone..not to mention that you can chuck rocks and mimic calls from anywhere

And for a more aggressive yet sneaky player it allows the option to lure out guards and take them out. Fire an arrow...the guard follows...finds the arrow...and begins searching...mimic a call and lure the guard in..take him out.

The way the AI reacts would lead to dynamic and interesting situations. I'd love to be able to send a guard running across country on a wild goose chase looking for a cougar who has mastered the art of archery.


Note: I doubt most of the suggestions are viable....but its just a suggestion regarding things we'd like to see and gameplay we'd like to experience.

Also as most of you have touched upon the issue

SOCIAL STEALTH needs to be really really improved and worked upon.
Perfectly put. If they could implement even half of this they would improve the game massively.

shobhit7777777
01-03-2013, 12:07 PM
5) To me messing with and manipulating the NPCs is the most fun part about stealth and the more options we have to do so the better it is. It truly turns "the dialogue" you spoke of in point 3 into a two-way communication! AC has moved many of these abilities to the recruits, which I think is a misstake for severeal reasons. Give these abilities back to Connor, add a couple and then ditch the recruits imo.

While I completely agree with your post...I feel that the recruits are an awesome aspect of AC and have a lot of potential. The system can be made even more awesome with some tweaks and additions

for one I'd like the ability to mark guards for assassination and then order my recruits to attack at once. It would be awesome if you could mark up-to 6 guards and have your recruits take them out at your command and when you're in perfect position

secondly I'd like the option to order either a covert assassination or a full blown attack.

and lastly an option to have recruits use equipment like smoke bombs or poison darts would be awesome.

Anyway...getting back OT - I wish this thread is the topic of discussion at Ubi's underground volcanic lair.

SixKeys
01-03-2013, 06:18 PM
While I completely agree with your post...I feel that the recruits are an awesome aspect of AC and have a lot of potential. The system can be made even more awesome with some tweaks and additions

for one I'd like the ability to mark guards for assassination and then order my recruits to attack at once. It would be awesome if you could mark up-to 6 guards and have your recruits take them out at your command and when you're in perfect position

and lastly an option to have recruits use equipment like smoke bombs or poison darts would be awesome.

The recruits used to use smoke bombs in ACB and (possibly?) ACR. Not sure why they took them out in AC3.

I really like your idea about marking targets for your recruits to take out. It would bring some strategy into the game if you had a well-guarded palace/fort with guards at every entrance. You could only use your recruits once in a co-ordinated attack and you would have to plan wisely which guards to take out so you had a clear path to your target.

I loved the idea of covert escort in AC3 but the ability was unlocked so late in that game that I only used it once. They should tweak it in future games that you could use it more often and in different ways. For example it would be great if your recruits could kill guards, steal their outfits and position themselves at guard posts in disguise. Then after you've performed an assassination, you would know which escape route is safe to take because the guard at that door is on your side.

MT4K
01-03-2013, 06:23 PM
The recruits used to use smoke bombs in ACB and (possibly?) ACR. Not sure why they took them out in AC3.

Pretty sure in AC3 i've had recruits use smoke bombs. I'd say i'm 90% sure.

I'll have to play again sometime later or tomorrow and see if i'm just imagining things or not lol.

ProletariatPleb
01-03-2013, 06:25 PM
Recruits use Smoke Bombs, send them to a large group and they use it, almost always.

CC1138
01-03-2013, 06:30 PM
I loved the idea of covert escort in AC3 but the ability was unlocked so late in that game that I only used it once.

Lol, I tried to use it once to take a British Templar fort and those idiots came dressed as Patriots^^

I liked the way your recruits killed from haystacks and other hiding spots if you ordered them to kill a guard that was standing near those. I wonder if it's still the case in AC III, haven't tried out yet...

ProletariatPleb
01-03-2013, 06:35 PM
Lol, I tried to use it once to take a British Templar fort and those idiots came dressed as Patriots^^

I liked the way your recruits killed from haystacks and other hiding spots if you ordered them to kill a guard that was standing near those. I wonder if it's still the case in AC III, haven't tried out yet...
Hhahahahah LMFAO!

SixKeys
01-03-2013, 06:40 PM
Lol, I tried to use it once to take a British Templar fort and those idiots came dressed as Patriots^^

LMAO :D:D That reminds me: at the fort in Black Creek after you've liberated it there's always one redcoat left just minding his own business fixing a wall in a corner. Every time I fast travel there I see him and he immediately gets attacked by a bunch of patriots: "GET HIM, BOYS!". The entire group then proceeds to kick the **** out of this poor redcoat carpenter. Makes me laugh every time.

ProletariatPleb
01-03-2013, 06:41 PM
LMAO :D:D That reminds me: at the fort in Black Creek after you've liberated it there's always one redcoat left just minding his own business fixing a wall in a corner. Every time I fast travel there I see him and he immediately gets attacked by a bunch of patriots: "GET HIM, BOYS!". The entire group then proceeds to kick the **** out of this poor redcoat carpenter. Makes me laugh every time.
Ahahha yes this happened to me today, he was hammering a nail and gets killed all the time.

Sushiglutton
01-03-2013, 06:46 PM
*#§$$@#§ you all, this was not supposed to turn into a "we want more recruits"-thread :mad:! Here is my anti-recruit manifest, just in case :p:
They are immersion breakers: Six guys in funny hats following Connor wherever he goes, ready to jump into action, is very silly. I don't like the idea of these bafoons stalking me!
They make a game that struggles with AI more complex: We all want better enemy AI. The recruit systems creates a lot of unknown parameters and situations for the enemy AI (and their own ofc). Would be much better if the AI programmers could focus on getting the enemies right.
They don't feel stealthy: With a tap of a button they burst into action creating chaos in their way. It looks silly and it feels silly.
They are idiots: I used lure once in a side mission to get rid of a couple of guards that were blocking the way to my target. The recruit "lured" the guards straight towards my target :( ! It was one of the most awkward moments in the game. Needless to say I immidiately sent the recruit on a suicide mission to punish him!
They were a chore to unlock and there were only a few situations/mission you had any use for them anyway.
It feels like cheating when you use them
I want to play as the lone wolf badass!
There you go ;)!

Sushiglutton
01-03-2013, 06:51 PM
Lol, I tried to use it once to take a British Templar fort and those idiots came dressed as Patriots^^

I liked the way your recruits killed from haystacks and other hiding spots if you ordered them to kill a guard that was standing near those. I wonder if it's still the case in AC III, haven't tried out yet...

Like I said: They are IDIOTS :mad:!

shobhit7777777
01-03-2013, 07:10 PM
The recruits used to use smoke bombs in ACB and (possibly?) ACR. Not sure why they took them out in AC3.
.

I'm not talking about them deploying smoke bombs......I'm talking about US deciding when to deploy smoke bombs, poison etc.

IIRC ACR had fantastic recruit abilities......I loved calling the assassin's in...they would use smoke bombs and crossbows and it was real cool to watch them take out 4 guards within seconds. But yeah...they need tweaking so that deploying recruits is a sneakier option.

Either way.....+1 for stealth

UncappedWheel82
01-03-2013, 08:59 PM
AC3's gameplay changed the series. Not just the combat, but the movement as well. Social stealth works very well in AC3, but you've got to realize all the tools that you have at your disposal and how and when to use them.

When I first started AC3 (with Connor) I felt like a noob for real even though i had played all the games in the series, and espeically since by that point I had been playing AC3 for hours on end. I was getting detect like nobodies business, and I was yerning far a crouch button to help me stay hidden, since I felt like no place was safe. As I kept playing though, I learned (and I really didn't feel it until my second play through), the gameplay in AC3 was perfect (minor issues not with standing), and if you know how, you can kill like a boss and not have any problem in the slightest.

In past games you could hide within groups and hay stacks and other places like in AC3, but in those games you couldn't really out run the enemies unless you had a big head start. In the past your options were to climb and hide, or fight and move on, as roving enemies were only in small groups of 4 (unless you ran into an area where there were just a large amount of enemes). In AC3 Connor is WAY faster and more mobile than Ezio or Altair ever were, and the enemies can be in bands of up to 6 guards and a scout who will run and get more guards to back them up. The scout is what opened up the guards awareness, and knowing that helped me to understand the games guard system better.

The changes they made, made knowing the terrain, and knowing how to use your surroundings and dissapear in the social setting that much more important. With Connor being WAY faster, it is now WAY easier to break line of sight on the ground, WAY easier to climb and hide, and WAY easier to fight it out (if you know how). That is the reason for more guards, they upped the challenge and they succeeded (but if you know what to do it still got to easy).

The only thing the Devs need to address is story mission design, i.e. freedom of choice.

Freedom to use stealth if you want to; freedom to not use stealth if you don't; and bring back the stable of items you could use. That is what I feel is the biggest issue with the game. They just need open up the freedom to go either route, leaving it up to the player how they want you use the tools given. Most of the stealth I was refering to earlier I only experience when I was just exploring the world. Only in missions like the Pitcarin assassination was stealth a viable method, but even there they only gave you really one way to achieve the stealth goal. The design choices of most of the missions only gave you only one way of achieving the missions end, where I feel that past games masked the resrtictiveness of the mission much better.

CC1138
01-03-2013, 11:54 PM
LMAO :D:D That reminds me: at the fort in Black Creek after you've liberated it there's always one redcoat left just minding his own business fixing a wall in a corner. Every time I fast travel there I see him and he immediately gets attacked by a bunch of patriots: "GET HIM, BOYS!". The entire group then proceeds to kick the **** out of this poor redcoat carpenter. Makes me laugh every time.

Ah that's why he was there! I just saw this poor fella getting his a** kicked by 20 patriots and I wondered why he was there.

shobhit7777777
01-04-2013, 06:35 AM
When I first started AC3 (with Connor) I felt like a noob for real even though i had played all the games in the series, and espeically since by that point I had been playing AC3 for hours on end. I was getting detect like nobodies business, and I was yerning far a crouch button to help me stay hidden, since I felt like no place was safe. As I kept playing though, I learned (and I really didn't feel it until my second play through), the gameplay in AC3 was perfect (minor issues not with standing), and if you know how, you can kill like a boss and not have any problem in the slightest.
.

I disagree.

I'd have preferred smarter guards over more guards. The AI straight out cheats in the way it chases you. Connor, as you rightly state, is an extremely agile assassin and moving through dense areas is a joy with him...I can cut alleys and turns like its nobody's business. Unfortunately the AI works off an archaic detection parameter where it always knows the character position and hiding is only allowed when LOS is gone.

I have made super sharp turns and twists and doubled back like a g-dammed Jason Bourne pro. They make a bee-line for me...regardless of LOS. Add to that the sheer density of guards and you have a very broken, uninteresting and frustrating chase experience.

The Social Stealth, the Chases and **** near anything to do with the AI is simply not even remotely challenging. It is an exercise in either manipulating dense enemy AI or mechanics or frustration. I just don't feel satisfied after losing an army of redcoats/patriots. Or magically disappearing between two petite ladies.

Besides...from a narrative POV....it felt super weird using social stealth as Connor - the Native American outsider who was new to the cities. Ezio...now that dude fit right in....in with the savvy and bustling streets...being a rough and tumble city boy.

Connor felt best when stalking people in the wilderness.

cjdavies
01-21-2013, 02:25 PM
Problems I had with stealth:

- I whistle from a corner, 2 guards investigate, can't do the corner kill, if I do I then start a fight with everyone, or worse fail due to being detected.
- I whistle close enough from a haystack and nothing it seems they are scripted to walk in their path and that is it.
- Cannot whistle from a bush or hanging from a ship/ledge.
- I was a doing mission, and the 100% sync was do not get detected, on the ship I was hanging off the ledge, the 2 guards had their back to me, just facing forward, not moving, as soon as I climb aboard they detect me!
- Poison dart's range has been reduced (I think), making it harder to get close, shoot it and avoid detection from others.
- The bow and arrow now takes 2 shots, after first shot I'm detected.
- Can't crouch behind a rock or waist high wall when taking over a fort.

Just finished Sequence 8, now in New York, liberated New York and like the new abilities of my 2 recruits - Lure and Escort, never used the others, see how that goes in taking over a fort etc.