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rick_475
01-16-2004, 12:33 PM
Hans-Ulrich Rudel would be my first choice because of the decorations he received + his personal accomplishments. Because I don't know much about the British, American, Japanese, Russian, Finnish (...) soldiers , I wonder if there's another soldier (including pilots, navy, army and others) who could equal or surpass the amazing record of Rudel.

Generals who didn't take part DIRECTLY in battles like Goring, Patton and etc are excluded.

rick_475
01-16-2004, 12:33 PM
Hans-Ulrich Rudel would be my first choice because of the decorations he received + his personal accomplishments. Because I don't know much about the British, American, Japanese, Russian, Finnish (...) soldiers , I wonder if there's another soldier (including pilots, navy, army and others) who could equal or surpass the amazing record of Rudel.

Generals who didn't take part DIRECTLY in battles like Goring, Patton and etc are excluded.

SpremeCommander
01-16-2004, 01:02 PM
Hans Roger.
Sgt., GrossDeutschland Div.

S77th-brooks
01-16-2004, 01:21 PM
kiwi,s must be in this they did most of the dirty work for the british

GODSOCKv2
01-16-2004, 01:27 PM
Audie Murphy...w00t.

imenhotep
01-16-2004, 01:27 PM
Erich Hartmann, definitelly.

DuxCorvan
01-16-2004, 01:32 PM
I once saw an old photograph of a WW2 Soviet soldier that was more than 210 cm. (7 ft) tall. He was the GREATEST WW2 soldier I've ever seen... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

coturnix
01-16-2004, 01:34 PM
Antti Rokka.

arcadeace
01-16-2004, 01:38 PM
Some great choices but its too subjective for me. There were too many who willingly gave the ultimate sacrifice and were quickly forgotten.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167449.jpg

flyfastfar
01-16-2004, 01:38 PM
Hans-Ulrich Rudel was one of the most decorated soldiers in the war. He single-handedly destroyed over 500 enemy tanks. If you get a chance read "stuka pilot". Its about his exploits.
In one passage, a newbie got shot down on the "bad" side of the Dniester river. Hans landed to save the crew and got stuck in teh mud. The soviets were close by and closing in. He swam the icy river and evaded some 30 miles back to the friendly lines. chilling sotry.

VaporBlast
01-16-2004, 01:43 PM
He was with the bad guys but I have to say Rommel was the best.

1.JaVA_Razer
01-16-2004, 01:45 PM
All of them

but indeed some excelled.
All ofthem where the best.

nutt3r
01-16-2004, 01:45 PM
i'd have to say hartmann or major cain who won the victoria cross at arnhem after taking out loads of tanks with just an anti-tank rocket launcher. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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buz13
01-16-2004, 02:02 PM
My uncle Mort says he was......his brain is pretty far gone though...

CRSutton
01-16-2004, 02:04 PM
My Dad, Navy corpsman K.R. Sutton.

Any one of ten million more who served their country and did their duty.

CRSutton
01-16-2004, 02:04 PM
My Dad, Navy corpsman K.R. Sutton.

Any one of ten million more who served their country and did their duty.

CRSutton
01-16-2004, 02:04 PM
My Dad, Navy corpsman K.R. Sutton.

Any one of ten million more who served their country and did their duty.

CRSutton
01-16-2004, 02:04 PM
My Dad, Navy corpsman K.R. Sutton.

Any one of ten million more who served their country and did their duty.

CRSutton
01-16-2004, 02:04 PM
My Dad, Navy corpsman K.R. Sutton.

Any one of ten million more who served their country and did their duty.

CRSutton
01-16-2004, 02:04 PM
My Dad, Navy corpsman K.R. Sutton.

Any one of ten million more who served their country and did their duty.

rick_475
01-16-2004, 02:04 PM
Hartmann didn't get the Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross. So Rudel's achievement would be superior to Hartmann's. As for Rommel, did he directly take part into battle? How many tanks did Rommel destroyed with his crew? What medals did he get for his exploits in BATTLE? I just read something on Audie Murphy, quite impressive but I doubt he got a medal equivalent to the Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross, prove me wrong.

CRSutton
01-16-2004, 02:05 PM
My dad, Navy corpsman K.R. Sutton.

Like millions of others he served his country and did his duty.

CRSutton
01-16-2004, 02:07 PM
Whoops! Sorry about the multiple posts. Did not think they were going.

rick_475
01-16-2004, 02:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CRSutton:
My Dad, Navy corpsman K.R. Sutton.

Any one of ten million more who served their country and did their duty.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry but this topic is about personnal achievement and decorations in combat. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

buz13
01-16-2004, 02:11 PM
You can get the Medal of Honor for a single act. That does not always make you a great soilder....it might prove you're a little (or a lot) nuts....and it often means you're dead.

Lazynerd
01-16-2004, 02:22 PM
You're kidding, a six X post? Patience with the post button my friend, patience.

arcadeace
01-16-2004, 02:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by buz13:
You can get the Medal of Honor for a single act. That does not always make you a great soilder....it might prove you're a little (or a lot) nuts....and it often means you're dead.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep. Let those who received medals for real heroism cherish the honor unto themselves. Others' opinions prove nothing.

http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_222_1073167449.jpg

Bearcat99
01-16-2004, 02:47 PM
This topic is as openended and un answerable as "Which plane won the war?" Actually even more so when you consider the numbers of soldiers who fought on all sides.

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BfHeFwMe
01-16-2004, 02:48 PM
Everyone knows it was Vinegar Joe.

rick_475
01-16-2004, 03:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This topic is as openended and un answerable as "Which plane won the war?" Actually even more so when you consider the numbers of soldiers who fought on all sides.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think so, all you have to do is find the name of a soldier with high decorations (don't tell me there's too many of them, there's not 1000 Rudels and 1000 Pokryshkins). Because only 1 Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross was awarded during the WW2 it makes Rudel the best German soldier... Pokryshkin's decorations might be as good as Rudel's but his achievements weren't as good. Maybe there was a russian tank commander with high decorations and achievement, or a british tank commander? A submarine commander?

PS. Generals like Goring, Patton and etc are excluded.

Zyzbot
01-16-2004, 03:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rick_475:
Hartmann didn't get the Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross. So Rudel's achievement would be superior to Hartmann's. As for Rommel, did he directly take part into battle? How many tanks did Rommel destroyed with his crew? What medals did he get for his exploits in BATTLE? I just read something on Audie Murphy, quite impressive but I doubt he got a medal equivalent to the Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross, prove me wrong.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


________________________________________________


The number of Medals does not necessarily mean anything. They can be given for political reasons.

eiffel68
01-16-2004, 03:51 PM
The unknown soldier.

http://www.battleships-cruisers.co.uk/images/antn45.jpg

LW_lcarp
01-16-2004, 04:37 PM
Yep would have to agree with Razer on this one


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by razer3:
All of them

but indeed some excelled.
All ofthem where the best.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Chuck_Older
01-16-2004, 04:58 PM
I on the other hand would have to whole-heartedly and strongly DISagree.

There are two romanticized things about WWII soldiers:
1) all of them did their duty, and
2) all of them were combatants

In each of the armed forces in WWII, there where men who murdered to further their own ends, who stole from their comrades (such as the US supply personell who raided such basic supplies as clothing and food from the supplies that should have gone to the 101st during their time in the Ardennes, the same sort of soldiers raided their belongings while they were in combat, while the theives were safe back in England), and who raped and desecrated. Not every soldier was the galant Audie Murphy, and of the soldiers in uniform, a relatively small number ever fired a shot in anger.

Those who served their country should never be forgotten, but I cannot agree with the notion that anyone who wore his country's uniform was great because of the simple fact he was pressed into military service. I do not consider a soldier who participated in the rape of Nanking a great person or a great soldier. US soldiers commited atrocities too, that is not an anti-Sino sentiment. But Nanking is a great example of how base and vile soldiers can be.

A very good argument could be made that although Richard Winters was never decorated as often or as highly as Audie Murphy, that he was just as good if not better a soldier. I'd argue that Winters, being in the 101st, was an elite soldier from the beginning and trained harder. His company embarrassed the PT sergeants at one point in the training because they were simply better than the supposedly hard nosed drill instructors, physically. They also broke the record for a forced march. My vote would be **** Winters for the US. He was as good a soldier as you'll get, from courage to command, fighting to planning.

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

SkyChimp
01-16-2004, 05:08 PM
The greatest soldier is probably dead, buried and unrecognized. We'll probably never know his name.

Regards,
SkyChimp
http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/skychimp.jpg

rick_475
01-16-2004, 05:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Zyzbot:
The number of Medals does not necessarily mean anything. They can be given for political reasons.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In the case of a General or like Goring, yeah maybe. I don't think a soldier has to get the greatest award to become a hero... Hartmann didn't get the greatest award and he was a hero in his homeland. What's the link between Hartmann's medals or Rudel's medals and politics? They were already hero no matter which medals they were wearing on their jacket.

The comment "All of them" makes no sense, as I said before this topic is about personnal achievements and decorations. Per exemple : Don't tell me that all programmers are the greatest... Some programmers work for Nasa, some for FBI, some for Maddox and others configure databases in a local store.

jensenpark
01-16-2004, 05:19 PM
I don't think so, all you have to do is find the name of a soldier with high decorations (don't tell me there's too many of them, there's not 1000 Rudels and 1000 Pokryshkins). Because only 1 Golden Oak Leaves, Swords and Diamonds to the Knight's Cross was awarded during the WW2 it makes Rudel the best German soldier... Pokryshkin's decorations might be as good as Rudel's but his achievements weren't as good. Maybe there was a russian tank commander with high decorations and achievement, or a british tank commander? A submarine commander?

PS. Generals like Goring, Patton and etc are excluded.[/QUOTE]

What?!?! Goering excluded? And here I was going to choose him! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

rick_475
01-16-2004, 05:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SkyChimp:
The greatest soldier is probably dead, buried and unrecognized. We'll probably never know his name.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry pal, but I don't think the greatest soldier would have achieve as much as Rudel and have no recognition at all. You don't equal Rudel's achievement only by setting foot in Normandy and getting killed. You have to survive and fight A LOT of battles with great success. You don't get from Green to Elite in one battle and without recognition along the way.

ajafoofoo
01-16-2004, 07:40 PM
Wow, someone has a crush on Rudel. PLease, put away your SS uniform and seek mental help.

Laddil
01-16-2004, 08:02 PM
I can't say who the best soldier was because he may be dead, buried and forgotten as someone else said.

rick_475
01-16-2004, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ajafoofoo:
Wow, someone has a crush on Rudel. PLease, put away your SS uniform and seek mental help.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the??? I don't have a crush on Rudel, it's just that so far he IS the greatest soldier of ww2, unless someone brings up a new name worthy of that title. I find it sad that you inaugurate your first post on this forum with such a lack cleverness.

TPN_Cephas
01-16-2004, 08:55 PM
Without a question Hans Ulrich Rudel.

Not just the 519 tanks mentioned earlier fell to his aim, but a battleship, destroyer and a cruiser, over 800 artillery pieces and Lord knows how many trucks, supply wagons and targets of opportunity. He also flew while suffering sickness and while recovering from gunshot wounds. In the last months of the war he was resumed flying before his leg was fully healed after a canon shell hit caused his leg to be amputated. He also landed behind enemy lines 6 times to rescue 12 countrymen, and another recue attempt resulted in his capture, and quick escape during which he received a bullet in the shoulder as he returned from 50 km behind enemy lines.

While not being a member of the Nazi party he makes no excuses for the Germans conduct during the war. This thread was about who was the best though, not what their politics were.

JG27_Dacripler
01-16-2004, 09:58 PM
My Grandpa in Bouganville as a Seabee "Can do"
He left the USA off to the Pacific in a "Tin Can" with overwhelming odds of ever returning home. He inspired me to enlist in the US Navy and do something different. I remember my Mother telling me how cruel he was after he made it back to the States of him singing, "Far Away Places" as she was living in constant fear that her Father was on a tiny speck in the S.Pacific with overwhelming odds to come home to his Wife and 3 children But the irony of him returning deserves the greatest soldier in WW2 in this thread as I understand it.

pudsterIV
01-16-2004, 10:18 PM
The unknown soldier.

DuxCorvan
01-17-2004, 03:14 AM
Mmmm... Goering had the highest medal... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Well, he was a great soldier... of WW1. The 'Pour-le-merite' Blue Max he wore was a real achievement. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As for the best and worst soldiers in that war or any other, he/she is always the same one: the common man. That's the one who wins and loses at the same time.

For me, the best soldier is that who kills to save his life or defend a cause, but still hates killing and holds a human heart.

Give me a good balance between duty and pity and I'll show you a good soldier. But these are bad times for chivalry...

- Dux Corvan -
http://www.uploadit.org/DuxCorvan/Altamira2.jpg
Ten thousand years of Cantabrian skinning.

x6BL_Brando
01-17-2004, 06:35 AM
This seems a real "anorak"s kind of debate - a bit like train-spotting - trying to determine who was the "greatest" soldier out of a war that was anything but great, based on medals & kills. On that basis you have to vote for the pilot of the Enola Gay or the commandant of Auschwitz as being right up there too. I mean, whether he was a Nazi or not, surely Rudel & his Stuka must have taken part in the terror-bombings of cities & the civilians in them which so typified the early stages of the European War, the Blitzkrieg.
For me, one bomb or bullet discharged in those circumstances, knowingly dropped on an un-armed, defenceless civvie robs a man of "greatness" no matter what levels of physical prowess he achieves.

How about my my long-dead father-in-law, who spent 48 hours on the beach at Dunkirk, most of them in the sea passing wounded men into the little boats? What about the volunteer civvie crews of that little fleet who could only watch on while a broken army was strafed by the 109's & Ju87's of the glorious, heroic Luftwaffe?

IMO, a man's greatness is measured not only by what he does, but why he does it. Perhaps a different adjective is needed....perhaps asking who was the most intrepid, naturally-gifted, expert hunter-killer of the 39-45 war might put Rudel in the top 10, but leave "greatness" st the door.

p1ngu666
01-17-2004, 07:55 AM
mr doss http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
medic, stupidly brave, saved many many lives, never killed anyone

and tbh, u need a large slice of luck for this thread, u could of been best soldier and got taken out of battle by a random shot.

ajafoofoo
01-17-2004, 10:40 AM
Sorry, Rudel is still a poor choice.

You might as well say Stalin was a hero too.

Neither one deserves any "medals" simply because their inhumanity nullifies any good they did.

I think being a supporter of nazi evils pretty much disqualifies Rudel.

Hartman is a much better choice.

fordfan25
01-17-2004, 10:42 AM
john Wayne. man very one knows that whats wrong with you pepole lol.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Lazy312
01-17-2004, 11:24 AM
The unknown soldier.

312_Lazy
312th Fighter Squadron
http://312.jinak.cz

Chuck_Older
01-17-2004, 11:49 AM
I'd say Rudel's gunner was braver- he had to hop in that plane knowing what that crazy guy in front was going to do- and the guy in back couldn't even see the action until the plane roared past the target- and then who were the Russians shooting at? the gunner!

In response to "Rudel being the only choice", I wonder if it seems that way because you don't know what other famous people did? Many of his contemporaries called MacArthur "His country's greatest man at arms". George Marshall didn't like him, but acknowledged that he was the US's greatest commander. MacArthur would purposefully expose himself to sniper fire in front of his troops! He was decorated many times, and 13 of those (if I recall) were for bravery. But as we seem to be discussing men who lived on the front line, I wonder again:

why not Richard Winters? He didn't get the CMOH only because another officer from his unit won it on D-Day, the same day his actions warranted his recommendation for it. Only one man from each unit could receive it. Winters earned the CMOH but was awarded the Distinguised Service Cross instead. What you may have seen on the HBO series isn't even the whole story of this man's bravery and accomplishments. Read up on him and then tell me why Rudel was a better soldier. I fail to see why Rudel is de facto 'best' based on those raw numbers of missions flown and tanks destroyed. The man who was probably the greatest fighter pilot the US ever had, John Boyd, wasn't even officially credited with a single kill although on his breif combat tour in Korea he claimed a MiG. So that means Boyd isn't the best? He performed manuevers in the F-100 that the designers said couldn't be done. He influenced Marine Air strategy in the Gulf War. His lack of a single combat kill does not take away his greatness, so I think Rudel's raw numbers cannot be the only factor to consider.

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

BfHeFwMe
01-17-2004, 12:31 PM
The only reason MacArthur wasn't fired to start with was so many Admirals and Generals already had been canned over the Pearle Harbor debacle. His Phillipines defense was a total disaster, fighting a defensive fight with a much larger force on your home turf. His name was right up there on Roosevelts list.

It's a little known fact his cheif of staff for air devised a plan to strike Japanese airbases immediatly after Pearle, he vetoed it. The B-17's avaliable were later decimated by Japanese raids on the ground, unused. Post war it was discovered the entire strike force was marshalled at those same Formosa bases, it would have been a disaster for the Japanese and seriously hindered the Phillipine invasion.

He also chose the one spot plagued with serious malaria left in the PI to make a defense, hunger and disease did more than anything to defeat them. I'd give his staff far more credit, he was more interested in rebuilding his image. General Wainwright would get it far before him, the guy he left holding his baggage. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Heavy_Weather
01-17-2004, 01:40 PM
Audie Murphy......big pimp http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

ajafoofoo
01-17-2004, 09:07 PM
Funny how some people think a person can be defined as hero if we leave "politics" out.

Supporting the extermination of millions of Jews isn't simply "politics".

Please, that kind of sickness isn't politics. It's just wrong and anyone who supported it is a monster, not a normal human, and deserves no hero status no matter how dedicated to their cause they were.

BfHeFwMe
01-17-2004, 09:15 PM
Besides he lost, didn't he? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ajafoofoo
01-17-2004, 10:17 PM
Yup, but still I consider someone like Hartmann a hero.

He defended his country, not the sickness known as the "final solution".

TPN_Cephas
01-17-2004, 10:44 PM
The topic says greatest soldier, not hero.

rick_475
01-18-2004, 12:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DOG-SneakyPete:
The topic says greatest soldier, not hero.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, also the topic doesn't say the greatest gentleman of WW2 or the most mysterious and melancholy case of WW2 (unknown soldier). This is an easy question really, but some people's answer altered the whole meaning of this topic and made this post a hard one to answer. That's why the next time, I'll just shut up and do my own research.

NegativeGee
01-18-2004, 05:32 AM
If this topic had had the title "Who was the most decorated soldier of WW2" maybe we might have been able to get a meaningful answer, but "Greatest", thats jusy too open ended and vague a thing to define.

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Extreme_One
01-18-2004, 05:45 AM
Wasn't Private Ryan the greatest?

S! Simon
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jensenpark
01-18-2004, 06:41 AM
Billy Fiske...he won the BoB.

That's why Tom C. is going to play him.

Man, I wrote it in jest, but I feel dirty just mentioning that twit Cruise and something as significant as the BoB in the same thread.

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"Death before unconsciousness" - Uncle Duke

Heavy_Weather
01-18-2004, 06:50 AM
yep......private Ryan was a big pimp also. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

Chuck_Older
01-18-2004, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BfHeFwMe:
The only reason MacArthur wasn't fired to start with was so many Admirals and Generals already had been canned over the Pearle Harbor debacle. His Phillipines defense was a total disaster, fighting a defensive fight with a much larger force on your home turf. His name was right up there on Roosevelts list.

It's a little known fact his cheif of staff for air devised a plan to strike Japanese airbases immediatly after Pearle, he vetoed it. The B-17's avaliable were later decimated by Japanese raids on the ground, unused. Post war it was discovered the entire strike force was marshalled at those same Formosa bases, it would have been a disaster for the Japanese and seriously hindered the Phillipine invasion.

He also chose the one spot plagued with serious malaria left in the PI to make a defense, hunger and disease did more than anything to defeat them. I'd give his staff far more credit, he was more interested in rebuilding his image. General Wainwright would get it far before him, the guy he left holding his baggage. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right. That's why I didn't use him as "The greatest". I used Mac as an example of what other famous people did. Then I went on to my reasons as to why Winters was my choice.

Did you miss that part or did I delete it? MacArthur is not my choice for greatest soldier, and the quotes I used were not my words, they were his contemporaries, like I said. I think you completely missed the point.

*****************************
This is a public service announcement~Clash

bazzaah2
01-18-2004, 08:52 AM
The question is so widely framed as to be essentially meaningless.

That said, I'll go for the Unknown Soldier of all countries.

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Crashing online as :FI:SpinyNorman

ajafoofoo
01-18-2004, 10:12 AM
Greatest or greatness can still be used to describe someone like hitler then?

Gimme a break.

Hero or Greatest soldier, you are still asking pretty much the same thing. If the topic was "Who was the most effective soldier", then you'd have a point.

Rudel deserves nothing.

warweapon2
01-18-2004, 12:03 PM
Audie Murphy!