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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:50 PM
I simply cannot justify the money for TrackIR.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great toy/aid, just a little pricy.
I always use Padlock and don't generally join servers that have it disabled. To turn your head in FB you use your mouse or HAT switch. In RL you would do it naturally without thinking about it.
If I have a visual of an NME I hit the padlock key and let the Sim do what I think I would do naturally in RL. If you're chasing someone I believe your gaze would just follow the aircraft. For me Padlock simulates your head/gaze tracking the NME.
It's too tricky in a DF situation to be using your mouse to look and joystick to control your flight at the same time (not to mention pressing keys on the keyboard!).
The HAT switch isn't too bad but canot be used accurately to get your pilots gaze exactly where you want it to be.
I think Padlock is essential for those who don't have/can't afford TrackIR.
I don't use Padlock as a cheat either for picking out NME's that may be camouflaged by terrain. I only use it when I have a definate visual of my foe.

Do you think people who host servers with Padlock disabled are being a little unfair? I think Padlock is a simulation of your gaze.

What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:50 PM
I simply cannot justify the money for TrackIR.
Don't get me wrong, it's a great toy/aid, just a little pricy.
I always use Padlock and don't generally join servers that have it disabled. To turn your head in FB you use your mouse or HAT switch. In RL you would do it naturally without thinking about it.
If I have a visual of an NME I hit the padlock key and let the Sim do what I think I would do naturally in RL. If you're chasing someone I believe your gaze would just follow the aircraft. For me Padlock simulates your head/gaze tracking the NME.
It's too tricky in a DF situation to be using your mouse to look and joystick to control your flight at the same time (not to mention pressing keys on the keyboard!).
The HAT switch isn't too bad but canot be used accurately to get your pilots gaze exactly where you want it to be.
I think Padlock is essential for those who don't have/can't afford TrackIR.
I don't use Padlock as a cheat either for picking out NME's that may be camouflaged by terrain. I only use it when I have a definate visual of my foe.

Do you think people who host servers with Padlock disabled are being a little unfair? I think Padlock is a simulation of your gaze.

What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:55 PM
I think the computer is doing all the work for you with padlock. With TrackIR, you can still lose the enemy. I find padlock much much easier to use than TrackIR.

TrackIR won't spot planes you can't see normally like padlock either. Anyway, you asked for opinions. That's mine.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 10:57 PM
Those with fancy equipment always have advantage over those who don`t have`em.


I got used to my crappy equipment and figured I`m pretty happy,even though I`d like to have a separate throttle instead of a slider.

I have a good time,but I figured PL is a radar.


BTW there`s a TIR for poor ppl/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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Message Edited on 08/09/0311:58PM by carguy_

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:02 PM
Do you like to use TrackIR because it is harder to use than padlock??
Do you think then that Padlock would be turning your virtual pilots head to an unnatural painful angle? Does TrackIR not cover the head turning range that Padlock does?
I agree that the computer is doing the work for you but that was my point. Simulating something you can't do if you haven't got TrackIR.

Thanks for your comments BuzzU, they are appreciated...

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:14 PM
I found staying on the target much easier when I used padlock. It would let you see what your real head turning could never do.

Even though you say you don't use padlock to spot targets. Most guys do../i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Da Buzz
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<center>
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XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:16 PM
Thanks for the forum link carguy, sounds like just what I need to get into padlock/radar(!) disabled servers.

Just hope I can figure out the set up.

Maybe I rely too much on padlock, but I enjoy using it.

Perhaps it could be changed in a future patch the same way that trim was. Still function as keeping your gaze locked on an NME, but limit it a little (or a lot). Have the head turn range not as extreme (maybe padlock does gives you a head like an owl). Don't allow padlock to lock on aircraft that are cammo'd against terrain. This could be determined by gamecode that compares the aircraft markings to the terrain and calculates a percentage of visibility. If below a certain percentage don't allow padlock??

PS It suprises me that you say most people use Padlock for spotting targets BuzzU. If I have an NME in front of me and he's about to go out of my FOV, I hit Padlock. That's how I've used always used padlock. If it's being used as a radar I think it should be patched with limits.

Message Edited on 08/09/0311:27PM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:30 PM
I absolutly can not stand pad lock.... it is completly unfair for someone to use it because you can never shake them when thier on ur six you can pull anymove in the book and they will allways know where you are.
for that reason only i think its great that it is banned in so many servers. I never check to see if its on because most servers i frequant never have it on...
I can allways tell when its on because that #1 the only time i get shot down. unless im on cooler and power hitters server. #2 no matter what move i pull or how sweet i pull it off thier allways on my 6. if thats the case i just leave for a more realistic server...

you cant justify knowing where the plane is when its under the cockpit or in the bars or canopy... its just crap.

Now where all entitaled to our opinion. You asked and i stated. But your reason is fine and you should continue to fly anyway you choose.

Out. War.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 11:40 PM
Agreed Wargod5475.

Do you think Padlock should be patched to simulate a more realistic gaze of a pilot tracking a plane.
The instant a plane is obscured by any part of the cockpit (even with cockpit off) padlock will be lost? So those fancy moves you speak of will shake and lose a padlock, and like I said before. Limit the virtual pilots head turning range...?

Has any of this ever been mentioned as a possible patch in the ready room? should it?

I find HAT tricky. If the previously mentioned programs can successfully turn my HAT into a virtual mouse, that could be something.
I simply like the fact that Padlock can simulate (well almost) a pilots head turning. Something you do without thinking.



Message Edited on 08/09/0311:42PM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:03 AM
I don't use padlock, yes i am serious, cuz i never got the trick of it , so to say it so ,I'm to dumb to use it correctly. Whenever I lst the prop from sight, I start waving my plane around so.. no thanks.
I don't have TrackIR, but I agree with Buzz, in RL, pilots could hardly apreciate the movement of enemy planes like the PL does

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:25 AM
Padlock's "unreal" advantages include,

1. Follwing a plane that has moved under the cockpit.
2. Aquirring targets that are mere dots. In RL you wouldn't know if it was friend or foe. (Except when approaching enemy territory one could assume planes ahead were not friendly if you were at the front of the invasion force.)

I have tried padlock but feel that using my eyes much as a pilot would, (mouse or, if I had it, Track IR), and let my brain do the work is much closer to full real. If an enemy a/c flies under my nose I'll invert my plane (if safe) and track w/ my eyes.

As for the post suggesting that pilots who use padlock can stay on your six and you always get shot down has something to do with allowing the enemy to get there in the first place.

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:27 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- I think the computer is doing all the work for you
- with padlock. With TrackIR, you can still lose the
- enemy. I find padlock much much easier to use than
- TrackIR.
-
- TrackIR won't spot planes you can't see normally
- like padlock either. Anyway, you asked for opinions.
- That's mine.


Thats exactly mine too..
Its like target locking... I didn't use it even before I got TrackIr.. Suck it up and get the toy that best simulates RL if thats what you are looking for..

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:35 AM
Just imagine TrackIR and those 3D Glasses(miss the name). They are like little screens that stay like glasses in front of you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif OMG!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:35 AM
Still seems a lot of money.
Isn't TrackIR intended for people with disabilities?
Might feel a little funny using it for a game...

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:37 AM
Tks WG your not easy to get and lastnight you were kicking us good!
LOL... GF O ya PH doesn`t use it but I do for the reason mentioned above.

I did some intro CAM teaching for the German Airforce for 3 years in a T-34 and can say that you do follow the target plane with your eyes and 99% of the time you never take them off, unless they are on your dead 6. Padlock to me works just the same as in RL. I tried TR but when I fly FB my head is moving around to much from old habit in RL.

I can understand that on FR severs that it would be used as a radar, but in ours we have map icons on so it really doesn`t matter.

If anyone wants to find out for real that hasn`t done it go out to AirCombat Inc. there are 3 or 4 around the country jump in a Marchetti or Mentor and shoot someone down for ALMOST real and you will see how your head moves around what 6 positive and 3 negative G`s feels like etc.

!S!

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:40 AM
Funny you should mention that. I have a pair of ELSA glasses which I got in a clearance sale (5 UK pounds!!).
They work great when I set my monitor to 800x600 which gives me 100hz (50hz with glasses active).
Unfortunately they don't work with FB and I don't think anybody has succesfully got them to work.
Would love 3D depth in FB.
All my other games work with the ELSA glasses.
...not FB though...

Von_Zero wrote:
- Just imagine TrackIR and those 3D Glasses(miss the
- name). They are like little screens that stay like
- glasses in front of you. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif OMG!!! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- "The show must go on..."
- <center><img
- src="http://www.btinternet.com/~jj_b/vaw/images/ia
- r81t.jpg"></center>

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:47 AM
Ah ha!!!!!!!!!!
Padlock works like it does in RL you say, just hoped at least one person would say that! It is as I suspected...
People don't agree though...
I am a gamer and have ZERO RL experience but I imagined padlock to behave like a real pilots gaze (apart from the radar exploit)...
Thnx Cooler07


Cooler07 wrote:
- Tks WG your not easy to get and lastnight you were
- kicking us good!
- LOL... GF O ya PH doesn`t use it but I do for the
- reason mentioned above.
-
-
- I did some intro CAM teaching for the German
- Airforce for 3 years in a T-34 and can say that you
- do follow the target plane with your eyes and 99% of
- the time you never take them off, unless they are on
- your dead 6. Padlock to me works just the same as in
- RL. I tried TR but when I fly FB my head is moving
- around to much from old habit in RL.
-
-
-
- I can understand that on FR severs that it would
- be used as a radar, but in ours we have map icons on
- so it really doesn`t matter.
-
-
- If anyone wants to find out for real that hasn`t
- done it go out to AirCombat Inc. there are 3 or 4
- around the country jump in a Marchetti or Mentor
- and shoot someone down for ALMOST real and you will
- see how your head moves around what 6 positive and 3
- negative G`s feels like etc.
-
-
- !S!
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:57 AM
Wouldn't moving your head with TrackIR be more like RL, than looking straight ahead with padlock? With padlock your plane doesn't get in the way of your view like it does in RL or TrackIR.

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:05 AM
SO thats the reason you fly me into the ground sometimes cooler.... ic....... lol J/K...

But hey if you were to accidentally get into the situation where your enemy was to disapear below you cockpit and say he was slowing down to get on your 6 would you really know where he was like you would with padlock? thats a foreal question. Im sure you could hear somthing. but it just seems like you could loose someone like that... What do you think?

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:06 AM
If you were following a plane with your gaze in RL and it got obscured by your plane your perception might still be able to predict where it was going. Moving your aircraft around it might then come quickly back into view.
I think maybe padlock should have a cutoff time. Say if the padlocked NME is out of your vision for more than 2 seconds*** padlock gets dropped unless you bring it back into view....
What do you think???
With these ideas I think we could get a much more refined Padlock that people would accept...

***as defined by cockpit obscurance because with padlock you still see it anyway

BuzzU wrote:
- Wouldn't moving your head with TrackIR be more like
- RL, than looking straight ahead with padlock? With
- padlock your plane doesn't get in the way of your
- view like it does in RL or TrackIR.
-
- Da Buzz
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- <center>
- "No Guts No Glory"
- <center>
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- src="http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/j
- ug.jpg">
-





Message Edited on 08/10/0301:09AM by Scragbat

Message Edited on 08/10/0301:12AM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:10 AM
I used to use padlock before VOW started; nearly everyone I played against used it too, so we were all on an equal playing field. I liked the dogfights because they always drew to a conclusion; once engaged, one of you was always going to eat dirt.

The dogfights are different when padlock is disabled. A lot of the time you break off because you lost the enemy. I find that dogfights are mostly just a series of passes in which, if you lose the guy you were fighting with the best thing to do is look around for another target to chase rather than turn around and try to spot your original target again. This type of dogfight is not as fun or rewarding as a padlocked one in my opinion.

But the problem I have now is that I don't even have a padlock key assigned, so I'm at a disavantage when joining a server that allows it. And even if the server disallows padlock, the guys with TrackIR generally find it easier to kick the 'mouse users' butt.

Having said that, on the server I was on last night, I asked who wasn't using padlock or TrackIR and surprisingly the three top scorers weren't. So I guess you can manage with a mouse if you practise enough.

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:16 AM
i just use my top hat no mouse.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:19 AM
Here are some more advantages of TrackIR. I'll just list them all including some already mentioned.

As natural as real life. To look left. Turn your head left.To look down. Move your head down.It's a no brainer, and feels very real.

One thing you can't do in padlock when your locked on a plane is look around. Check your six. You can snap forward in padlock, but you can't snap to your six. Not a problem with TrackIR.

Your not always in a fight when your flying. Looking down to check your gauges. Lining up for a landing. Flying in formation. Sure you can do all these things with your hat switch, or mouse look. However it's a different system than padlock. TrackIR is natural, and covers all these things without thinking about it. Just look where you want to go.

I know TrackIR is expensive for some of you, but almost everybody who gets TrackIR says "Why didn't I do this before. It's so cool"

That's my .05

Da Buzz
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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:21 AM
Padlock is just a difficulty setting, nothing more nothing less. Fairness is not applicable here.

*ironic mode on*
I am very hamfisted so don't you think it would be a little unfair to me if stalls and spins are disabled? I keep stalling all the time and because i'm hamfisted and the others not, it's a bit unfair.

I'm also an extremely bad shot, and i wanna fly the Yak3. So don't you think it would be a little unfair to turn off unlimited ammo for the Yak3 guys who can't shoot so well?

I don't know how to manage my engine either, so turning overheat off and turning complex engine management on is also a bit unfair.

I use the keyboard to fly, don't you think it's unfair if the other guys are using joysticks, and with trimsliders?

etc. etc.
*ironic mode off*

If padlock games are your preference, you should stick to playing those. Easy enough. Plenty padlock games around. Don't join the no padlock games.

And just that it's a no padlock game doesn't mean that the host is automatically using a trackIR. It simply means that he is well versed in playing games without padlock. Which may be through snapviews, mouse or trackIR. Tracking planes yourself may be an artificial "skill", but it can be learnt very easily with or without trackIR. Before using trackIR i used snapviews to track planes. Didn't need padlock then either.

trackIR does not equal padlock. The view is not automatically steered by the padlock AI. And despite what you may believe, it's the poor man's virtual reality headgear.

Scragbat wrote:

- Do you think people who host servers with Padlock
- disabled are being a little unfair? I think Padlock
- is a simulation of your gaze.
-
- What do you think?

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:55 AM
Scragbat wrote:
- I simply cannot justify the money for TrackIR.
- Don't get me wrong, it's a great toy/aid, just a
- little pricy.

So.. sounds like you tried it, and then returned it? Otherwise how would you know if it was worth it or not?

- I always use Padlock and don't generally join
- servers that have it disabled.

I try to find ones that dont have padlock... or at lest a very limited range of padlock.. In that it kills the thrill of the hunt.. That is it takes one of the hardest thing in combat and makes it the easiest.. ie spoting the target.

- To turn your head in FB you use your mouse or HAT
- switch.

Or TrackIR

- In RL you would do it naturally without thinking
- about it.

Which is one of the best things about TrakIR.. it is natural feeling.. and really REALLY improves the IMERSION.

- If I have a visual of an NME I hit the padlock key
- and let the Sim do what I think I would do naturally
- in RL.

Enhhh, too easy! Too Un-nautral really.. totally messes up the real world tatics in that the hard part is not easy.. maitaing contact.. That and you cant do a quick GLANCE to the rear to check six.. Just feels too un-natural.

- If you're chasing someone I believe your
- gaze would just follow the aircraft.

Agreed.

- For me Padlock simulates your head/gaze tracking the NME.

Duh! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- It's too tricky in a DF situation to be using your
- mouse to look and joystick to control your flight at
- the same time (not to mention pressing keys on the
- keyboard!).

Agreed

- The HAT switch isn't too bad but canot be used
- accurately to get your pilots gaze exactly where you
- want it to be.

Disagree. On that note if IL2 did the HAT moves like EAW did it.. ie they did NOT SNAP to that view.. they MOVED to it.. quickly. Made for a more natural look and feel.

- I think Padlock is essential for those who don't
- have/can't afford TrackIR.

I dont.. the hat is as good... Well.. Assuming you spent more then $20.00 on your joystick!

- I don't use Padlock as a cheat either for picking
- out NME's that may be camouflaged by terrain.
- I only use it when I have a definate visual of my foe.

LOL! And no I dont want to buy a bridge! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


- Do you think people who host servers with Padlock
- disabled are being a little unfair?

NOT AT ALL! In that not *everyone* is as honest as you are! Mater of fact I doubt anyone is! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- I think Padlock is a simulation of your gaze.

Duh! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- What do you think?

See Above.



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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:01 AM
WG I would just roll or yaw the nose out of the way or pull and climb calling nojoy, it all bepends on the Sit.

I don`t think trackIR is a unfair advantage it just didn`t work for me.

One thing I find funny is a server saying FR but has engine overheat or CEM off , or the 1 that has PL off but ext. views on and blackouts on where all you have to do is go ext. view and do the RBJ shift and watch your plane do supper turns and still have some control over it. But thats the way it is.

We host the settings we like and if we jump in another hosts game we never complain about there settings.

It`s just a FUN flying GAME to me and everyone should be able to fly the settings they like or want without being called every name in the book from noobs to #%%^@$^&.

!S!

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:12 AM
rgr that i cant stand a server with no over heat or cem on...
truth is its to hard to fly in a server with out cem... lol

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:15 AM
Well, yes.
Now that you mention it, of course it's fair if a host switches PL off. It's his server, he can host it how he damn well likes.

I still think PL simulates a pilots gaze tracking a plane... ...my opinion
Duh!
I can host my opinions how I like
Duh! duh!

Wether you believe me or not, I don't use PL as a Radar. I use my map as a radar, if the map is off I use my eyes, then PL when I 'see' them to hold them in my 'gaze'.
Duh!

To have PL simulate your pilots gaze is to love PL simulating your pilots gaze.

I use a Saitek Cyborg 3D Gold USB stick. Smooth, accurate and it gets me on your six.
I have never owned or used TrackIR, just read other peoples experiences and formulated an opinion.
That's not saying I don't want one.


Keep em coming, good debate



Message Edited on 08/10/03 02:40AM by Scragbat

Message Edited on 08/10/0302:56AM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:28 AM
I found after using trackir, that padlock made things worse for me.

Really limits my SA.


Trackir feels natural to me, frees up my hands and allows more immersion for me.


I got tired of using a hatswitch to look around in IL2 and purchased TIR. I still used padlock until FWars introduced the .dll, I'd look around, find a target, then hit padlock.



I agree with Dmny - you pick your server- mine will have padlock off http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:39 AM
Rgr that with padlock. I can`t remember the last time when I was flying for real that I used my left hand on my chin to move my head. I would like to see my FO`s face if I did it at work!! LOL!!!!!!!!!!

I will agree with T-IR letting you look around the cockpit like in RL thats the great thing about it.

One question I have is alot of players want as much FR in this game as they can get which is cool but would we be flying zero time airframes and engines every flight?

You here alot of players saying this aircraft does this speed at that altitude for this long etc, etc, etc.

Where everyone should know thats not possible in RL aircraft. I think the modeling in this game is the best there is but there has to be some compromises we have to make.

It is afterall flying in a 2D world not 3D.


!S!

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 05:01 AM
Padlock and track IR are oxy-morons.

People that go to all the trouble of buying track IR and setting it up sure aren't going to allow padlock...it would ruin the justification of their purchase.

Thats why trackR sucks. People buy it and then turn off padlock to give themselves an advantage. Even Oleg thinks padlock should be a part of full real.

TrackIR is also for people who aren't discerning gamers. The device does not refresh high enough for smooth panning..but alot of people just can't tell the difference. (just like alot of people can't tell the difference between vsync on or off) I feel sorry for these people.

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Hawgdog
08-10-2003, 05:40 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
Even
- Oleg thinks padlock should be a part of full real.
-
- TrackIR is also for people who aren't discerning
- gamers. The device does not refresh high enough for
- smooth panning..but alot of people just can't tell
- the difference. (just like alot of people can't tell
- the difference between vsync on or off) I feel
- sorry for these people.


Wrong wrong wrong....Oleg says padlock is good unless you can afford TrackIR
Track IR refreshes quicker than anyone's eye can tell.

RBJ RBJ RBJ...this has been rehashed soooooo often....jeeez, you'd think you'd have learned by now

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 06:14 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Padlock and track IR are oxy-morons.

NEGATIVE Ghost rider... you are not cleared for fly by!

- People that go to all the trouble of buying track IR
- and setting it up

All the trouble? STEP AWAY FROM THE CRACK PIPE AND COME OUT WITH YOUR HANDS UP! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- sure aren't going to allow padlock...it would ruin
- the justification of their purchase.

Errrrrrrrrrrnt! <- Insert BUZZER sound here.. Sorry, wrong answer.. The answer is.. They disable padlock to make the experance more realistic, in that by disabling padlock one can not rely on padlock to provide SA. That is to say by disabling padlock you have to use real SA, thus exhibting more realistic tatics, thus increasing the whole realism of the experance for all.

- Thats why trackR sucks.

See above, your answer was wrong, thus TrackIR does not suck, you were just wrong about why people disable padlock... NOTE!!!!!! PLEASE NOTE!!!! THERE ARE SERVERS OUT THERE THAT DISABLE PADLOCK WHO DONT EVEN HAVE TRACKIR! Thus blowing your WHOLE theory out of the water and adding credance to mine! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- People buy it and then turn off padlock to give
- themselves an advantage.

You can say it ten more times... It still wont make it true! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Even Oleg thinks padlock should be a part of
- full real.

But not for the reaons listed here, Oleg realise like alot of people that the PC monitor does not do a good job of simulaing a real cockpit... But, the ability of padlock to lock onto a target you have not even seen yet does more harm than good with regards to the tatics used. Now if provided options to only enalbe padlock to LOCK ONTO a target you have first found... that would be great! But I dont think I want a MATRIX cable hanging out the back of my neck that the USB port would be pulling on to check and see if I see it! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- TrackIR is also for people who aren't discerning
- gamers.

You couldnt be more wrong if you tried!

- The device does not refresh high enough for
- smooth panning..but alot of people just can't tell
- the difference. (just like alot of people can't tell
- the difference between vsync on or off) I feel
- sorry for these people

We apreciate your pitty... but we neither need it or care if you do! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 07:37 AM
I liked the Flanker/Flanker 2 system. Put the target in the HMS (Helmet mounted Sight) circle, press the track button, and you can follow the target with your eyes, directing your radar onto it at the same time.

You can lose the target with padlock on in IL2. I recall you lose it if it is obscured by the cockpit for a couple of seconds, or by clouds. If you manouver the plane to bring it back into view quickly, you can still track the target.

Personally, I find the wide angle view more useful than padlock. I use snap views & wide angle to watch targets.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 09:27 AM
I dont think that TrackIR is a cheat. I beleive its one of them things that will make it more interesting. I am an avid Padlock user. However I am seeing more and more that only games with cockpit off and outside views have Paddlock enabled.
This discourages me from joining these games. Its just a dog eat dog, chance only, no skill game. So I prefer full real now. So what if I got to use my hats and mouse. This reaquires skill and making a kill is hard earned.
I would prefer to use Padlock but the game is going away from this. I am but one guy, cant control the way the whole game is going. Guess I will have to learn to do without. I allready turned off the triangle so I dont see it when I play offline. Online I turned it off on my server. You get paddy but you dont see the triangle. Its a weeaing process

Whats next, THey gonna make me do land NAV NEXT!!! Oh, damn.... I guess some are doing that too lol. Im getting my old army land nav books out now....

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 10:17 AM
I really like the padlock implementation we have in FB. It loses a target after a couple of seconds behind the cockpit edges and frame or through cloud, which feels just about right.

Also, I've seen several posts here from real-life pilots who have said that it's a very easy and natural thing to be able to track a nearby a/c with head motion. I have NEVER heard one say the opposite.

So apart from the (debatable) oddity of the "radar" use for padlock, I can't see anything wrong with it.

Some people confuse more difficulty with more realism. Not always the case.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 10:24 AM
Hawgdog wrote:
-
- RayBanJockey wrote:
- Even
-
-- Oleg thinks padlock should be a part of full real.
--
-- TrackIR is also for people who aren't discerning
-- gamers. The device does not refresh high enough for
-- smooth panning..but alot of people just can't tell
-- the difference. (just like alot of people can't tell
-- the difference between vsync on or off) I feel
-- sorry for these people.
-
-
- Wrong wrong wrong....

I think RBJ's point is that the FPS we get from the game isn't high enough that you can pan quickly without seeing the cockpit frames "stutter" across the screen. If that's what he meant, he's right.

I have a pretty good PC (2.4 GHz P4, 1 GB RAM, 9700 Pro), but in my normal resolutions I get a median FPS of about 35 with extremes of ~ 15 - 75. When I've used a TIR the jerking of the cockpit frames is quite noticeable and a bit of an immersion killer. It's one of the reasons I prefer padlock.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 12:06 PM
Scragbat wrote:
- Still seems a lot of money.
- Isn't TrackIR intended for people with disabilities?
- Might feel a little funny using it for a game...
-
-



Hi Scragbag

On the Naturalpoint webpage you will have seen that trackIR
for people with disabilities costs considerably more than
the gamers package. The software that comes with trackIR for
gamers does not need such advanced functionality, as you
will continue to use the keyboard etc.

Able-bodied PC game players now want trackIR for the
fantastic immersion it adds to games. As hardware production
runs get larger, the cost of making each trackIR detector
will fall. This will help keep the price low for people that
need trackIR for basic personal communication.

So I don't feel funny, I feel smug. Buy trackIR. You will be
doing something to help people with a disadvantage!


edit pselling
<center>
http://www.imgmag.org/images/delta9tetra/lurch-avatar.gif

</center>

Message Edited on 08/10/0302:01PM by delta_9_tetra

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:22 PM
ah, so padlock does get lost if it's view is obscured for a few seconds, I hadn't noticed. Well that's good then.

As for Radar, I really don't use it in that way.
Let's hope that it will get patched (may post in ready room).
I think padlock should only activate if NME is in gunsight.
Will then stop pilots from using what is a good implementation of head movement as an exploit.

I know this isn't the ready room, but will be good if Oleg has been following it...

Thanks for putting my mind at rest on that point delta_9_tetra.
Will still have to wait for price to drop before I even consider.
If exploit capabilities of PL are modified then I may not need one.


You hit the proverbial nail on the head with that one RocketDog!
- Some people confuse more difficulty with more realism. Not always the case.



Message Edited on 08/10/0301:27PM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:47 PM
I was a user of padlock until I got Track ir now I use both depends on how I feel sometimes I find it easier to shoot with the padlock.

Tir is hard to get used to but once you do you cant go back.

No1RAAF_Pourshot


http://members.optusnet.com.au/~andycarroll68/CAC-15.jpg

How many people think this is a p-51/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 01:54 PM
Scragbat wrote:
- ah, so padlock does get lost if it's view is
- obscured for a few seconds, I hadn't noticed. Well
- that's good then.

No that's bad.

Padlock should stick to the target in a 360 deg sphere around you no matter if it gets obscured for a few secs.
If i play no cockpit, it doesn't get obscured at all not even for a split sec.

And padlock range should be extended too. At least to a range where the dots become visible, but preferably at twice or triple that range. If you can see it you should be able to padlock it, but even if you can't see it you should be able to padlock it. Just like it does when the bandit disappears below your nose (cockpit on games). Your virtual eyes will rotate down and look at the bottom of your fuselage. I guess, in an attempt to look through the fuselage. You can't see it, but you just know 100% sure that the bandit is there.

And another tip for the padlockers: speed up your padlock!
You can do that in the conf.ini.
Somehow, you're less likely to lose padlock if you speed it up. I use trackIR but i like padlock games just the same, allows me to radarscan for targets that are hard to spot. And you'll find the biggest contingency of target fixated people over there. Which is a good thing if you're not the target, but say, his wingie./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:00 PM
I disagree about the 360 deg sphere. Your pilot is not in a scene from the Excorsist and doesn't have a head like an owl.
I think the 'radar' capabilities are an oversight and should be rectified. That's a reason why some servers disable it. I think this is one of the main reasons people don't like it.
It should activate when NME is in gunsight view and break off if view is lost for more than a couple of seconds, or if your virtual pilots head is at an unnatural angle

If it did behave in the 360 deg manner you mentioned and not break off if the view was obscured, padlock would become as despised as the trim exploit.

Dnmy wrote:
-
- Padlock should stick to the target in a 360 deg
- sphere around you no matter if it gets obscured for
- a few secs.
- If i play no cockpit, it doesn't get obscured at all
- not even for a split sec.
-
- And padlock range should be extended too. At least
- to a range where the dots become visible, but
- preferably at twice or triple that range. If you can
- see it you should be able to padlock it, but even if
- you can't see it you should be able to padlock it.
- Just like it does when the bandit disappears below
- your nose (cockpit on games). Your virtual eyes will
- rotate down and look at the bottom of your fuselage.
- I guess, in an attempt to look through the fuselage.
- You can't see it, but you just know 100% sure that
- the bandit is there.
-
- And another tip for the padlockers: speed up your
- padlock!
- You can do that in the conf.ini.
- Somehow, you're less likely to lose padlock if you
- speed it up. I use trackIR but i like padlock games
- just the same, allows me to radarscan for targets
- that are hard to spot. And you'll find the biggest
- contingency of target fixated people over there.
- Which is a good thing if you're not the target, but
- say, his wingie.



Message Edited on 08/10/0302:02PM by Scragbat

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 02:29 PM
Scragbat wrote:
- I disagree about the 360 deg sphere. Your pilot is
- not in a scene from the Excorsist and doesn't have a
- head like an owl.

Maybe not, but i would gather he isn't exactly a shortsighted one-eyed, eyepatch wearing, cararactic dwarf either. Which is what he basically already is in a game like IL2 with its visuals.

- I think the 'radar' capabilities are an oversight
- and should be rectified. That's a reason why some
- servers disable it. I think this is one of the main
- reasons people don't like it.

The radar capabilities are a nescessary evil that is inherent to padlock. You want the range reduced? i OTOH say extend the range to where you can see the dot. If people don't like that radar capability they can host no padlock games. I OTOH with my trackIR would much rather play the padlock enabled games.

- It should activate when NME is in gunsight view and
- break off if view is lost for more than a couple of
- seconds, or if your virtual pilots head is at an
- unnatural angle

You mean to say that the real pilot can only padlock bandits that are in his gunsight? I think he will laugh in your face if you tell him that /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif The real pilot can move his eyes and neck and has peripheral vision on top of that and he can predict where the bandit will reappear. It's impossible to model that with any padlock, so the compromise is an allfollowing magical padlock. Easy, no fuss.

- If it did behave in the 360 deg manner you mentioned
- and not break off if the view was obscured, padlock
- would become as despised as the trim exploit.

I played padlock sims since the day padlock was invented (Falcon3) and the majority of sims with padlock have that 360 deg panning ability without it breaking lock. Padlock like that has been very popular because it's practical to use. That should be the goal in creating a padlock. Tracking targets is as easy as pie for the real pilot, so if you can't model it to exactly mimick real pilot looking behaviour, at least make it as easy as pie for the simmer as well.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:07 PM
I personally would like to see

1. View Forward toggle removed.
2. Hosts able to set their own padlock range.


edit:

also

3. an option to not have the padlock snap forward when lost. If I lose padlock, I want to be still looking where he was, not forced to view center


S!
609IAP_Recon

Forgotten Wars Virtual War
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Message Edited on 08/10/0302:08PM by Recon_609IAP

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 03:53 PM
Dnmy wrote:
- No that's bad.
-
- Padlock should stick to the target in a 360 deg
- sphere around you no matter if it gets obscured for
- a few secs.
- If i play no cockpit, it doesn't get obscured at all
- not even for a split sec.
-
- And padlock range should be extended too. At least
- to a range where the dots become visible, but
- preferably at twice or triple that range. If you can
- see it you should be able to padlock it, but even if
- you can't see it you should be able to padlock it.
- Just like it does when the bandit disappears below
- your nose (cockpit on games). Your virtual eyes will
- rotate down and look at the bottom of your fuselage.
- I guess, in an attempt to look through the fuselage.
- You can't see it, but you just know 100% sure that
- the bandit is there.
-
- And another tip for the padlockers: speed up your
- padlock!
- You can do that in the conf.ini.
- Somehow, you're less likely to lose padlock if you
- speed it up. I use trackIR but i like padlock games
- just the same, allows me to radarscan for targets
- that are hard to spot. And you'll find the biggest
- contingency of target fixated people over there.
- Which is a good thing if you're not the target, but
- say, his wingie.

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=sarcasm

LOL! That was a good one!



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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 06:05 PM
I had to laugh!
My pilots face wears an eyepatch LMAO...

You simply can't have the pilots head spinning round and round and round. If this is a true simulation then if that were possible the pilots head would fall off.
A compromise has to be reached.
Begining with getting rid of the 'radar' exploit.
Pilots can not be hitting the padlock key without making any effort to find the NME. It's cheating, you cannot pretend otherwise.
It is not hard at all to get the NME to enter your gunsight. It's easy if you're a pilot of any skill. Hitting Padlock here is easy too. NME aquired, job done.
If you can't zero an NME this way then you must be using a gamepad or something, or you just can't fly.
I could understand why you would want a radar padlock then.

Visuals are well simulated if you ask me (I know you didn't ask but I'm telling you anyway).

Dnmy wrote:
-
- Maybe not, but i would gather he isn't exactly a
- shortsighted one-eyed, eyepatch wearing, cararactic
- dwarf either. Which is what he basically already is
- in a game like IL2 with its visuals.

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 06:38 PM
I've put a patch request in the ready room.

Bump if you wanna bump...

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 07:29 PM
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

No offense, but if you say that visuals are well simulated in FB it just shows that you don't quite play so often without padlock. You'd be surprised how hard it can be to find bandits without padlock. With padlock it's very easy, just a button press, without it, it requires a lot of carefull scanning of the skies and the ground. Especially so in cockpit on games. In cockpit off it's a lot easier ofcourse, similarly so with icons /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

In any case, no good padlock can get rid of the radar feature. So instead of getting rid of it it should be valued as a feature. That's not cheating, that's compromising. It's one of the reasons i really like the shiney triangle which clearly marks the bandit. There's simply no other way around the radar feature. Unless you disable padlock that is..

Well, maybe if you limit padlock range to say 100 m. you could get rid of the radar. But then again that just means you're only emphasizing the dwarfs shortsightedness. And the dwarf will be cursing his padlock for not kicking in yet, or losing lock when the bandit is at say, 101 m. range, yet still clearly visible. If you wanna have a padlock that simulates your one eyed cataractic dwarf, that's about the padlockrange you wanna end up with. But i'd rather simulate the trained ace fighter pilot with excellent vision and SA who can track his bandits as soon as he spots them at 40km or so.

There's simply no use for a padlock that can't padlock things you can clearly see. Padlock completely misses its purpose if it's modelled that way. (BTW i can spot dots 10km away). As soon as i spot the dot i can start tracking it with my trackIR. All i'm saying is that i'd like a padlock that can do the same thing. which means the padlock range should be extended to at least 10km.

And when i mentioned the 360 deg sphere i don't mean that the pilot should be able to spin his head around endlessly i just meant that everywhere around him a bandit can be padlocked. Doesn't matter whether he has to look down through the fuselage, through the nose or whatever cockpit obstruction you have, it should be padlockable. When i play no cockpit, i never ever lose a bandit behind any cockpit obstruction with trackIR./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif That's how a good padlock should be able to do it as well. On top of that, the padlock should put the object of interest right in the centre of the screen, just like all the other padlocks in all the other sims. The simplest and easiest solutions are often the best and most popular.

When you start making rules like, it should lose lock after x seconds in the clouds after x seconds behind an obstruction, etc etc. then you're better off playing without padlock alltogether.

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 07:51 PM
I'm sure you will find this hard to believe but I never NEVER use Padlock to 'find' bandits. NEVER! (never NEVER!!). The truth so help me...
I zero them with flight manouvers then hit padlock when I have them in my sight.
I do this with cockpit only views also, and I do play padlock disabled for diversity but they are not my first choice...


Dnmy wrote:
-
- No offense, but if you say that visuals are well
- simulated in FB it just shows that you don't quite
- play so often without padlock. You'd be surprised
- how hard it can be to find bandits without padlock.
- With padlock it's very easy, just a button press,
- without it, it requires a lot of carefull scanning
- of the skies and the ground. Especially so in
- cockpit on games. In cockpit off it's a lot easier
- ofcourse, similarly so with icons

XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 09:47 PM
Sorry DNMY, but if padlock behaved like that I would never host or join a game with it enabled! I've experienced precisely the padlock you speak of (10km, no track loss, etc.) in other sims and hated it beyond belief.

There are shortfalls in FB's current padlock system but I can live with them:

1 - Don't particularly like the return to center function when you DO lose padlock.

2 - That Look forward while padlocked is the biggest cheat there ever was. Without a time limit it's just a workaround to keep tally on people in clouds and I really despise it.

3 - Losing padlock on clearly visible foes or behind a simple obstruction like a cockpit strut, esp. when the bandit is quite a distance away, is ridiculous. Apparently the dwarf is a cyclops to boot.

4 - Non configurable range for padlock. Everyone has an opinion on how far out it should work and they will never agree. Why not, just like icons, allow configuration of padlock range?

<hr width="400">Before you criticize someone, you should walk a mile in their shoes.
That way, when you criticize them, you're a mile away and have their
shoes!
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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 09:56 PM
Padlock is a beatutiful thing, part of the game and meant to be used. It could also be made alot better with adjustible ranges and differentiation linked to icon color in range or not.

Most people who don't like it probably never got used to it, put it on the top of their joystick where it belongs (next to the hat switch). They probably leave it on the keyboard (immpossible to use well there). And since it isn't part of the "all-glorious" full real some ingnominous users shun it too (even though it should be a part of full real).

TrackIR? Whatever. Nobody has ever shown me a track where it pans smooth. Discerning gamers (like me) can tell the difference.

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 10:10 PM
Folks,

On a wholly personal level, for I respect everyone's feelings and rational decisions, I feel as if I'm cheating the other pilots when I engage the padlock feature and I feel more immersed into a W.W.II fight simulation when I use the TrackIR. I hope others will try it, i's a very nice add-on.

Falcon

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XyZspineZyX
08-10-2003, 11:16 PM
has anyone mentioned that the mind will 'read' the position of the head and interpret it?
In other word, if my head is pointed up and to the left, you will instinctively/unconsiously know which direction your looking. It's like cats that use the postion of their head to judge jumping distance,

With padlock, it it short term memory that is employed to sense the 'direction' you head is pointing.
In other words, you know instinctively/unconsiously that you head is point up and to the left because it moved that way from center.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 01:10 AM
P.S.

no disrespect was meant towards short people when i mentioned the shortsighted cataractic one eyed eye patch wearing dwarfs with blinders. It was just kind of a metaphor for the virtual pilot who can't reach over to see over the aircrafts nose without losing contact with his virtual rudder pedals so to speak. He can barely reach the gunsight.

On top of that the dwarf lacks the depth perception, peripheral vision etc etc. In short, someone who would not even make it through the first fighter pilot testing phase. Yet somehow for reasons obscure, we all want to be the dwarf, not being able to padlock objects at 10+ km's, losing padlock when you least want to lose it, losing padlock when the target is obscured x seconds by the strut etc etc. Well not me, i wanna simulate the trained fighter pilot with excellent eyesight and SA who knows where the bandits are without having to directly see them. A bit a la Jet Li. Well a good padlock can make us all Jet li's. A bad padlock makes us grumpy (the dwarf in snowy white)

A good padlock is an easy one with magical allfollowing capabilities and extended padlock range a la CFS (without the no black out feature ofcourse)

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 04:18 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Padlock is a beatutiful thing, part of the game and
- meant to be used.

True and not necessarly.

- It could also be made alot better
- with adjustible ranges and differentiation linked to
- icon color in range or not.

Agreed.

- Most people who don't like it probably never got
- used to it, put it on the top of their joystick
- where it belongs (next to the hat switch). They
- probably leave it on the keyboard (immpossible to
- use well there).

I would find that very VERY hard to belive... When PAW 1942 came out... Oh what is it now.. 10 years ago? Anyways it being the fist sim to do padlock I found it to be the best thing ever! Padlock is still good! It just has some aspects to it that can make one lazy with regards to SA.. in that they depend on padlock to do all the work.. No need to scan the skys.. or ID a target first, just point and click and lock... even if you didnt see the target.

- And since it isn't part of the "all-glorious" full
- real some ingnominous users shun it too (even though
- it should be a part of full real).

Disagree 100%! The dont shun it just because it is not on the realism list.. They shun it because of the effect it has on how you apply realistic tatics.. As I noted earler.. you fly different when using padlock.. because you dont have to scan as hard as they did.. They didnt whear silk scarfs for nothing! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- TrackIR? Whatever. Nobody has ever shown me a
- track where it pans smooth.

Ah, one of those huh? Bet you dont think they landed on the moon either? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

- Discerning gamers (like me) can tell the difference.

Discerning... Is that what they call it when your not exposed to the truth? /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 04:21 AM
MZ6 wrote:
- has anyone mentioned that the mind will 'read' the
- position of the head and interpret it?
- In other word, if my head is pointed up and to the
- left, you will instinctively/unconsiously know which
- direction your looking. It's like cats that use the
- postion of their head to judge jumping distance,
-
- With padlock, it it short term memory that is
- employed to sense the 'direction' you head is
- pointing.
- In other words, you know instinctively/unconsiously
- that you head is point up and to the left because it
- moved that way from center.

Huh.. I would have to say your 180 out on that one! In that with a HAT key your brain knows your looking up and to the left because that is what you pressed.. With TrackIR your brain knows where you looking becuase that is the direciton you moved your head.. Where as with padlock.. You didnt move anything in that direction.. And unless there is some part of the cockpit to provide you a referance.. your brain could loose track (pun intended) of where it is looking.




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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 04:37 AM
I vote for padlock. In the beta8 i noticed they changed it so it could not pick up a target outside of 3kilos. This is a step in the right direction, although limiting it to 2kilos would be better. That way it could be used as a tool, just like track ir, and would not be depended on as "radar" to find targets. Playing online with the beta8 padlock,in padlock enabled servers, players did not have a tough time getting in a position to bounce me. My first warning of the bounce was usually the sound of being hit. I cannot remember if the ability to track through clouds was altered in beta8 but it seems something was changed.

I am betting in the patch padlock will be changed in this manner, so it will be a great and inexpensive tool to use, and it's use as a target finder will be eliminated. If it's effective range was cut down to 2, and preferably 1kilo, for me track IR, which I purchased quit a while ago, tried, and threw back on the shelf, will stay on the shelf. I am used to padlock, it works for me and I have fun with it. I have stated before on this forum that disabling padlock is keeping a lot of poeple who don't have the bucks from joining the server and having fun. With the changes to padlock in the patch, I hope more servers will enable it, they will not have to be afraid anymore. Thanks for your time........

Jumoschwanz

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 06:34 AM
the posistion of the head 'tells' the brain where its looking. For example, in a completely dark room, you will know which direction, relative to the body, your head is 'looking' without any visual reference,

Padlock attempt to simulate this, and may trigger a simialar response int he brain ( I'm not sure about this ), but padlock obviously cannot work without visual reference.

The 'head position thing' is a characteristic of many vertabrates and is used by birds during flight, cats while jumping, race car drivers during a race and a lot other instances which I can't recall at the moment.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 07:05 AM
The point of a simulator is to try as far as economicly possible to replicate reality.

If there is anyone out there who doesn't move their head to see then you don't want trackIR.

For the rest of you cheapscates don't buy it.

Personaly I didn't.

I downloaded mousevision software for under $20 bought a $10 cam, a $5 flash headlight and it realy works - you move your head and it pans.

The only downside is that you have to spend some time calibrating your system and setting up lighting but after the money you've all spent on the rest of your system and the hours practicing...

If you can't afford $35 stop playing simulators and get a job - but don't waste your braincell trying to persuade us that padlock is realistic

http://perso.club-internet.fr/ptthome/vulogo3.JPG

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 07:34 AM
Track ir rocks !!, and its smooth alright !!
getting used to in the beginning after that u wont want to fly without, so natural feeling!!

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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 08:14 AM
MZ6 wrote:
- the posistion of the head 'tells' the brain where
- its looking. For example, in a completely dark room,
- you will know which direction, relative to the body,
- your head is 'looking' without any visual reference,

Exactally!

- Padlock attempt to simulate this, and may trigger a
- simialar response int he brain

I dont think so.. As you pointed out above.. In a dark room you know if your head is turned... You also know of your bending your finger.. Thus with TrackIR you know your head has moved, and or if using a HAT key your know which way your finger is pressing... With padlock.. Your head has not moved.. Your eyes have not moved... and your finger has not moved.. By moved I mean pointing in the direciton your looking.


- ( I'm not sure about this ), but padlock obviously
- cannot work without visual reference.

That brings up a good point, I was wrong earler when I said PAW 1942 was the first to do the PADLOCK.. it was the first WWII prop sim, but Falcon 3.0 was the fist! And they addressd the lack of cockpit bars by having a bit of a hud thing to show where your view was looking... It was about as good as it got back then... but looking back at it now.. it was a real pain in the A! But.. you needed soemthing for a referance in that your head, nor hand was not pointing in that direciton.. it was feedback.

- The 'head position thing' is a characteristic of
- many vertabrates and is used by birds during flight,
- cats while jumping, race car drivers during a race
- and a lot other instances which I can't recall at
- the moment.

Agreed 100%.. And it is something that is LOST with padlock and GAINED with TrackIR... The real pro of TrackIR is not that it frees up your hands to do other things... but that is one good thing.. The bes thing is that NATURAL FEEDBACK you get by looking in the dirction your view is looking.. It is just such a natural feeling and really helps with the whole imersion of flight sims IMHO





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XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 09:34 AM
-- Padlock attempt to simulate this, and may trigger a
-- simialar response int he brain
-
- I dont think so.. As you pointed out above.. In a
- dark room you know if your head is turned... You
- also know of your bending your finger.. Thus with
- TrackIR you know your head has moved, and or if
- using a HAT key your know which way your finger is
- pressing... With padlock.. Your head has not moved..
- Your eyes have not moved... and your finger has not
- moved.. By moved I mean pointing in the direciton
- your looking.

Just to clear things up...

Granted, nothing has moved using padlock, however, the brain can be 'fooled' to think so. How else could people get motion sickness in a IMAX theater. With padlock your brain can be fooled in a similar way.

Tully__
08-11-2003, 10:30 AM
I use a combination of padlock, snap views and mouse emulation (the Saitek X45, like the Cougar and CH joysticks, allows assigning mouse emulation to a joystick hat). When I can afford TrackIR, I'll add it to my arsenal of viewing options.

I would like to see host adjustable padlock range. I would also like the host to be able to disable external padlock along with internal in games where external views are permitted.

In the long run it's all about choosing the settings you are willing to fly with and learning to use them to the best of your ability. I fly whatever settings the host chooses online. Offline I fly whatever takes my mood on the day, often depending on whether I'm testing, training or flying for fun.

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Tully

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 03:23 PM
I agree with Scragbat even thopugh i haven't been using padlock in IL2. Seems when it first came out in sims everyone insisted you werenot flying full real if you didn't use it. ironic . I bought a track ir but haven't really used it. I like to move my head around when playing too much i guess. There is nothing really natural about leaning this way & that to mimic turning.
i agree "loose sight loose the fight" is a good aspect to add to a sim but have problems with the poor resolution , & the difficulty of getting the right compromise between detail & field of view.

Not sure how you kill the radar like aspect of padlock but teh 2 second rule sounds great.

scrag hang in there man the pro track IR crowd is load but doesn't mean you are wrong.
Scragbat wrote:
- If you were following a plane with your gaze in RL
- and it got obscured by your plane your perception
- might still be able to predict where it was going.
- Moving your aircraft around it might then come
- quickly back into view.
- I think maybe padlock should have a cutoff time.
- Say if the padlocked NME is out of your vision for
- more than 2 seconds*** padlock gets dropped unless
- you bring it back into view....
- What do you think???
- With these ideas I think we could get a much more
- refined Padlock that people would accept...
-
-

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"Anytime you have an opportunity to make things better and you don't, then you are wasting your time on this earth." -Roberto Clemente

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 03:50 PM
Tully__ wrote:
- I use a combination of padlock, snap views and mouse
- emulation (the Saitek X45, like the Cougar and CH
- joysticks, allows assigning mouse emulation to a
- joystick hat). When I can afford TrackIR, I'll add
- it to my arsenal of viewing options.

hehe /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

When you add trackIR to your viewing options, you can throw the other viewing options out the window and start thinking about assigning other things to your X45, cougar or CH stick./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 06:07 PM
I have TiR and I knew from the get go that this magical toy wasn't going to turn me into an ace but it freed from having to use that stinkin' sticky pan on the HAT switch. TiR does feel more natural and has greatly improved my situational awareness. I'm a better pilot? Probably not but the game feels more 'real' and enjoyable. I fly way better in formation, I can better track air and ground units and I can better monitor my instruments. Heck, it freed up HAT switches to map for other functions. stubby

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 06:37 PM
it is quite curious that people speaking against padlock always use some strange arguments...

the "radar" argument... well, i can see dots from much farthest than i can padlock them... i play in 1024*768 excellent settings with no AA and no anisotropic filtering on a 17" screen...

the "radar argument part 2" curiously, when i'm not looking in the right direction, padlock is of no use to me...

the "iff" argument... Strange, when playing FR plus padlock, my padlock is incapable of telling me friends from foes, always locking whatever is closest from center of the screen...

the "can't shake them from six" argument... well, i suggest you train some more, i can assure you that padlock isn't a substitute for maneuvering, if the other guy maneuver better than you, even if you padlocked him, you're fried...

and i must agree with those who say they gave up using padlock because they could not get accustomed to it, as it is easy to lose track what your plane is doing while following a padlocked plane... Pad lock is very hard to master, and it needs a lot of practice to be used effectively... much more than is needed to fly FR for example...

the worst example of absurd difficulty settings, is when i see games with external views, but no padlock... This is rather stupid as there is an external padlock, that can always tell friends from foes, working 360? so you can lock a plane that is not in your field of view, and this padlock can't be switched off, it is always working if there are external views, even if padlocking isn't on...

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 07:02 PM
Getting accustomed to padlock is the worst thing.
One become a dull pilot day by day.

Madman nerver say he is crazy. He thinks he's sane. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 07:41 PM
what's so difficult about padlock? There's just about nothing to master at all. How difficult is it to press that padlock button?

I used to play sims where i'd stay in padlock just about all the time. The padlock in those sims allowed that, and believe me it wasn't difficult at all. It's more difficult to create your own padlock all the time, with the hatswitch, mouse or trackIR, without padlock doing it for you.

Now i know that FB's padlock doesn't quite allow you to stay in padlock all the time, nevertheless it's getting closer. And the day it does allow the player to do so, is when they finally realized what a good padlock should be like. After all, the purpose of a good computerpadlock is to make the hatswitch totally obsolete.

Well, you know what? with the trackIR i make both the hatswitch and padlock obsolete./i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 07:54 PM
ptthome wrote:
- but don't waste your braincell trying to
- persuade us that padlock is realistic
-


LOL - I think it's a great aid to simulating reality and disabling it gives an unrealistic degree of tunnel vision. I guess opinions just differ.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 08:31 PM
Well put...


RocketDog wrote:

-
- LOL - I think it's a great aid to simulating reality
- and disabling it gives an unrealistic degree of
- tunnel vision. I guess opinions just differ.
-
- Regards,
-
- RocketDog.
-
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
08-11-2003, 09:32 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Padlock is a beatutiful thing, part of the game and
- meant to be used. It could also be made alot better
- with adjustible ranges and differentiation linked to
- icon color in range or not.
-
- Most people who don't like it probably never got
- used to it, put it on the top of their joystick
- where it belongs (next to the hat switch). They
- probably leave it on the keyboard (immpossible to
- use well there). And since it isn't part of the
- "all-glorious" full real some ingnominous users shun
- it too (even though it should be a part of full
- real).
-
- TrackIR? Whatever. Nobody has ever shown me a
- track where it pans smooth. Discerning gamers (like
- me) can tell the difference.
-

9 out of 10 discerning gamers agree: Neon lights make computers go faster.

9 out of 10 discerning people with JOBS agree: TrackIR is worth twice its cost.

Now let the fresh-ones argue this on thier own Ray. You've been here long enough, everyone knows your view on this.

You could always purchase one, try it for 2 weeks, and then send it back for refund (therefore allowing you to speak with knowledge and still afford to make payments on your clothes). I mean, if having the computer do ALL THE WORK for you is your thing, by all means, have at it, but I see no reason for you to continue your *********** of negativity on TrackIR when you've never tried it.



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Message Edited on 08/11/0304:43PM by BaldieJr