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Yellonet
06-25-2004, 03:08 PM
If opening the canopy, affects the aerodynamics of the plane (which I hope it does), there need to be some way to stop people using this as an airbrake.

First of all, that would, more or less, cancel out the advantage of having a real airbrake, which is a usefull thing even in a dogfight.

Second, it wouldn't be very realistic would it? Pilots opening and closing their canopies when in a tight furball http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Any thoughts?


- Yellonet

Yellonet
06-25-2004, 03:08 PM
If opening the canopy, affects the aerodynamics of the plane (which I hope it does), there need to be some way to stop people using this as an airbrake.

First of all, that would, more or less, cancel out the advantage of having a real airbrake, which is a usefull thing even in a dogfight.

Second, it wouldn't be very realistic would it? Pilots opening and closing their canopies when in a tight furball http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Any thoughts?


- Yellonet

Yellonet
06-25-2004, 04:05 PM
Where are all the talkative types anyway? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif


- Yellonet

stansdds
06-25-2004, 06:32 PM
In an actual dogfight, I don't think this was a consideration since it would require one, perhaps both hands, being placed on the canopy to move it. I could see this being abused on a computer sim.

VW-IceFire
06-25-2004, 06:40 PM
Well maybe it should jamm open if you try to open it above a certain speed (code would be similar to that of flaps). That way, if you opened it during combat style speeds you would be liable to jam it into position and permanently loose 20 mph or whatever off your top speed.

Some kind of response to abuse so that people who did it wouldn't find it in advantage.

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Fennec_P
06-25-2004, 07:05 PM
I'm sure if they are modelling open canopy, they'd model the associated performance hit.

Since the same effects already exist for flaps, radiator, damage and so forth, it would not be hard to add for this too.

Latico
06-25-2004, 07:42 PM
I suspect that since the canopies were somewhat bullet proof (or resistant) you would want it closed when the bullets start flying.

What if the Dev's were to model the wing guns on the bf109's so that they jammed sometimes during high G turns. Janes WWII Fighters had video interviews with ACes of WWII that flew the planes that were featured in the game.

Gunther Rall was the ace that flew the 109's and he said that the 109 had a problem with a chain breaking that held the wing guns in place, making them inoperable. He had the guns removed from his plane and just flew with the above engine and prop shaft guns.

IV_JG51_Razor
06-25-2004, 08:05 PM
I think you guys are all operating on the assumption that having the canopy open would slow the plane down significantly. I'm not so sure that this is the case. There probably were speed limitations for opening the canopy, or even for having the canopy was open, but I doubt that the a/c's speed would have been significantly reduced with it open.

I'd like to hear from someone out there who has a flight manual for the Corsair, because that's the only Navy plane I can think of that might have had issues with "canopy open" air speeds. I'm referring to WWII planes, not the F8F Bearcat.

Latico, the canopies were not even close to being "bullet proof", or even "resistant". I think you're confusing them with the front wind screens of some aircraft like the Spitfire.

Razor
IV/JG51 Intelligence Officer
www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

"Good judgement comes from experience, and experience comes from poor judgement"

DONB3397
06-25-2004, 08:46 PM
Does anyone have performance numbers showing the effect of open vs. closed cockpit?

On most single-seater aircraft, I suspect the windscreen deflects the wind around the open cockpit. The change should be barely noticeable. Certainly not enough to act as a dive brake.

Ummm...but if you stood up, that could alter the equation.

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heywooood
06-25-2004, 08:54 PM
Well - I know for a fact there were pilots that had to have their canopy open during combat because they wanted to be able to get out quick in case of a fire. And as far as the speed brake effect is concerned - remember - the windscreen is deflecting the airflow over the canopy already - so not as much wind is going to bend over and around the windscreen and get into the cockpit at 300+ knots as you might think.

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Lateralus_17SS
06-25-2004, 09:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
not as much wind is going to bend over and around the windscreen and get into the cockpit at 300+ knots as you might think.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would create a helluva noise though. Not sure how well that could be recreated in-game.

heywooood
06-25-2004, 10:32 PM
have you flown an open cockpit plane in FB?

I16 or J8 or Cr42 ? The noise levels were higher before being patched down slightly - but I imagine it will sound like that.

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Call_me_Kanno
06-26-2004, 09:37 AM
There is a good animation of the zero's cockpit opening and closing in the first response at this link. Thought some might like to look at it.

http://www.netwings.org/dcforum/DCForumID43/1095.html

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/Kanno/Sig.jpg

heywooood
06-26-2004, 11:37 AM
Looks from that animation that the pilot is raised up in his seat and lowers as the canopy comes forward... it also appears to be tied to the gear retracting?...or is that just a coincidence?...Thanks for the link Kanno http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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CPS_Shadow
06-26-2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heywooood:
Looks from that animation that the pilot is raised up in his seat and lowers as the canopy comes forward... it also appears to be tied to the gear retracting?...or is that just a coincidence?...Thanks for the link Kanno http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's just how the artist animated it. I heard somewhere we will have a key to raise us in our seat.

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Robert Edwards
06-26-2004, 12:53 PM
On all US aircraft the canopie was locked open durring takeoffs and landings so the pilot could get out if there was an emrgency.The reason was that canopies had a habit of locking on inpact if it was in the closed posistion.Infact most pilots flew with the canopies open at low alt such as 2 to 3000 ft or untill it got to cold for them.At higher alts the canopies were closed.An open canopy had very little impact on speed infact firing the guns slowed the aircraft more than having the canopy open.

Bobhegf

Ruy Horta
06-26-2004, 01:45 PM
Not only should PF model flying with an open cockpit, but include the limited drag of doing so and more important the benefit of being able to bail (or get out) more easily!

Might induce some people to dogfight with an open cockpit too...

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Ruy Horta

Obi_Kwiet
06-26-2004, 02:11 PM
Oh, brother....

VW-IceFire
06-26-2004, 03:41 PM
I figured that an open canopy is going to have an effect on the airflow around the aircraft where normally a smooth surface is replaced with an open area where the air is going to flow and bend around. I would guess that in most cases it would cause turbulence as the airstream passed down the side of the craft and thus reduce performance. I don't know, I just figured that'd be the the case.

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RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

Yellonet
06-26-2004, 03:56 PM
Hopefully it will be really hard to aim if you're in the "up" position, otherwise this would be utilized when deflection shooting.


- Yellonet

JJaguar
06-26-2004, 08:20 PM
VW-IceFire has it right. It's not air entering the cockpit that causes drag but what the air flow is doing downstream from the cockpit that slows you down. Indeed, the side windows of the P-38 were not to be opened during flight because it caused buffeting of the tailplane. Contemporary accounts state that an open canopy can reduce top speed by as much as 30 knots.

heywooood
06-26-2004, 11:53 PM
http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/g380000/g384058.jpg

Apparently - the boys just like to fly with the top down as a rule...

I think the only reason the pilots would close the canopy is high altitude, above 15000'.. because of excessive cold more than anything else.

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Goin'fishin'

[This message was edited by heywooood on Sat June 26 2004 at 11:01 PM.]

Ruy Horta
06-27-2004, 12:39 AM
Whatever is finally causing the drag is less important than the cause and effect situation, the open canopy increases drag and lowers the speed.

Interesting issue on the P-38, thanks Jet Jaguar.

BTW, if we can model drag from radiators in FB/PF, the addition of drag "from" open canopies should not be difficult (relatively speaking).

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Ruy Horta

JG53Frankyboy
06-27-2004, 04:19 AM
soviet reports about MiG3 be flown with open cockpits ore canopies removed from frontline units are talking about a reduced speed of around 30mk/h because of that

VF-17_Jolly
06-27-2004, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG53Frankyboy:
soviet reports about MiG3 be flown with open cockpits ore canopies removed from frontline units are talking about a reduced speed of around 30mk/h because of that<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have read this also the early lagg pilot also removed or flew with open canopies because of the quality of the perspex and also suffered from a performance penalty as rule of thumb pacific aircrew flew with open canopies because of the temprature (at low and mediem altitude at least) but closed them prior to combat because of said performance hit(IMHO) http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Ruy Horta
06-27-2004, 06:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-17_JOLLY:
from a performance penalty as rule of thumb pacific aircrew flew with open canopies because of the temprature (at low and mediem altitude at least) but closed them prior to combat because of said performance hit(IMHO)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the Eastern Front Vorosheykin explained the exact opposite. Fight with the open cockpit, since it will improve visibility and ease bailing out at almost no loss of performance, since the speed isn't highest anyway while dogfighting.

However it has been a while since I read a USN/USMC biography...

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Ruy Horta

VF-17_Jolly
06-27-2004, 06:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruy Horta:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VF-17_JOLLY:
from a performance penalty as rule of thumb pacific aircrew flew with open canopies because of the temprature (at low and mediem altitude at least) but closed them prior to combat because of said performance hit(IMHO)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

On the Eastern Front Vorosheykin explained the exact opposite. Fight with the open cockpit, since it will improve visibility and ease bailing out at almost no loss of performance, since the speed isn't highest anyway while dogfighting.

However it has been a while since I read a USN/USMC biography...

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Ruy Horta
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think this may have been because of the tactics used early soviet doctrine used T and b whilst US aircrews quickly learnt to use height and diving speed to over come the short comings of their outclassed F4F`s so the drag factor of the open canopy may have been more of an issue..


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