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JumpInTheFire13
12-01-2012, 12:41 AM
It's been a month since I played the beginning parts of AC3, so I could be getting confused, but didn't Haytham say something about Braddock being excessively brutal? Something about Braddock killing too many innocent people? And that's why Haytham severed ties with him.

But then later in the game, we see Haytham do those exact things! For example, in Sequence 9, Memory 1, Haytham puts a bullet through the head of a wagon driver that Connor was questioning. Don't you think Haytham is being just a bit hypocritical?

Assassin_M
12-01-2012, 12:43 AM
So ?

Yes he`s Hypocritical...Of course he is...Connor is Hypocritical...The entire Assassin Order is Hypocritical

xboxauditore
12-01-2012, 12:46 AM
Of course Haytham is hypocritical, He's a Templar.

naran6142
12-01-2012, 12:48 AM
That was one thing i didnt like, ubi made him a cool character that you would like but then after you play as connor, he is less likable

JumpInTheFire13
12-01-2012, 12:51 AM
That was one thing i didnt like, ubi made him a cool character that you would like but then after you play as connor, he is less likable
I thought he was a lot more likable than Connor. Sure, Haytham was kind of an a-hole, for lack of a better word, but at least he had some personality.

naran6142
12-01-2012, 12:54 AM
I thought he was a lot more likable than Connor. Sure, Haytham was kind of an a-hole, for lack of a better word, but at least he had some personality.

i still really like haytham character, just felt he became a little unnecessarily evil

rupok2
12-01-2012, 01:10 AM
and connor isn't hypocritical? The whole Assassins order talks of freedom and peace but they they kill people to shut them up. Ezio said that it is the biggest irony ever. At least the templars don't sugercoat it.

The famous like from connor to george washington Choose to follow me or oppose me and I will kill you

ace3001
12-01-2012, 01:25 AM
That was one thing i didnt like, ubi made him a cool character that you would like but then after you play as connor, he is less likableYeah, that kinda didn't sit well with me either. I realize that the part before Sequence 3 was supposed to show how similar Templars and Assassins are, but that similarity seems artificial when Haytham is suddenly a bastard after he was shown to be a Templar.

UrDeviant1
12-01-2012, 01:34 AM
The famous like from connor to george washington "You either follow me or I will kill you".

Dafuq? Connor NEVER said that. He said "follow me, and I will kill you"

Assassin_M
12-01-2012, 01:35 AM
Dafuq? Connor NEVER said that. He said "follow me, and I will kill you"
"Choose to follow me or oppose me and I will kill you"

Washington you Woman

rupok2
12-01-2012, 01:36 AM
Dafuq? Connor NEVER said that. He said "follow me, and I will kill you"


You sure? Well if thats true disregard that point but my opinion still stands.



"Choose to follow me or oppose me and I will kill you"

Washington you Woman

Thanks for verification.

UrDeviant1
12-01-2012, 01:37 AM
"Choose to follow me or oppose me and I will kill you"

^That to be more precise.

rupok2
12-01-2012, 01:38 AM
^That to be more precise.


Well then my point still stands cause my version of the quote is basically the same thing so not gonna bother changing it.

UrDeviant1
12-01-2012, 01:42 AM
Well then my point still stands cause my version of the quote is basically the same thing so not gonna bother changing it.

It's not the same thing. Your version threatens Washington Into doing something or else you'll kill him. The correct version shows that Connor has had enough of Washington giving leverage to the man who murdered his mother, torched his village and caused Connor to have to kill a long-time friend.

Assassin_M
12-01-2012, 01:43 AM
Well then my point still stands cause my version of the quote is basically the same thing so not gonna bother changing it.
Actually no.

Your version of what Connor said means that You will follow me or i`ll kill you, but that`s not what Connor said at all...

rupok2
12-01-2012, 01:53 AM
Actually no.

Your version of what Connor said means that You will follow me or i`ll kill you, but that`s not what Connor said at all...


There changed happy? I meant that its the same context since connor states that if George Washington opposes/ doesn't agree with his decisions then he will kill him even tho assassins fight for freedom.

Assassin_M
12-01-2012, 01:56 AM
There changed happy? I meant that its the same context since connor states that if George Washington opposes/ doesn't agree with his decisions then he will kill him even tho assassins fight for freedom.
Yes..

Also, that context in this post is completely different from the-- Ugh...I`ll stop here. No need to dig this hole any deeper..

UrDeviant1
12-01-2012, 01:57 AM
There changed happy? I meant that its the same context since connor states that if George Washington opposes/ doesn't agree with his decisions then he will kill him even tho assassins fight for freedom.
You took the context away when you gave Washington an ultimatum.

rupok2
12-01-2012, 02:08 AM
I think this is why I stopped going to any forums on the internet for months until recently.

I am just gonna stop... sorry if I offended anyone.

UrDeviant1
12-01-2012, 02:12 AM
I think this is why I stopped going to any forums on the internet for months until recently.

I am just gonna stop... sorry if I offended anyone.

Sorry for correcting you? It's ok to be wrong. I didn't mean to argue with you, just wanted to let you know what was actually said.

JumpInTheFire13
12-01-2012, 03:49 AM
The Assassins and Haytham are two totally different things though. Even though the Assassins kill people, they are still fighting for freedom. But Haytham basically ****ed Braddock for killing innocents, and then did the exact same thing.

montagemik
12-01-2012, 03:52 AM
I only actually saw Haytham kill people who could've jeopardised his missions.

Where as i'm sure it's mentioned Braddock was killing women & children indiscrimenently on previous assignments with haytham in the past - when it simply wasn't needed.

Bit of a difference in circumstances.

Assassin_M
12-01-2012, 03:56 AM
The Assassins and Haytham are two totally different things though. Even though the Assassins kill people, they are still fighting for freedom. But Haytham basically ****ed Braddock for killing innocents, and then did the exact same thing.
Nope..

Hypocrisy is Hypocrisy..You want to blind-eye anything the Assassins do, though that`s your choice...

ace3001
12-01-2012, 04:29 AM
I only actually saw Haytham kill people who could've jeopardised his missions.

Where as i'm sure it's mentioned Braddock was killing women & children indiscrimenently on previous assignments with haytham in the past - when it simply wasn't needed.

Bit of a difference in circumstances.This is true. Haytham only killed innocents when he thought they'd go and rat on what he did. That way, he isn't being a hypocrite by ****ing Braddock up.

SweetsMachineGun
12-01-2012, 07:11 AM
Hypocrisy doesn't make a bad character, in my opinion. Assassin's Creed characters aren't black and white. A bit of character flaw keep it interesting (For me, at least).

LinkAndLoad
12-01-2012, 07:48 AM
You would almost say that the characters act human.

Assassin_M
12-01-2012, 08:04 AM
You would almost say that the characters act human.
Our Protagonists act human ?? How dare you ? how dare they make our Protagonists human ??

britassassin
12-01-2012, 08:40 AM
I don't think Haytham's actions during his time with Connor completely contradict his earlier actions; he doesn't indiscriminately kill innocents, only those who get in his way or work for his enemies. Which he was prepared to do with earlier in the game (e.g. threatening to kill the captain during his voyage to Boston), and is pretty much what Templars do.

What I did find odd was how his attitude towards it seems to change. He goes from being somewhat regretful of the means he must utilize in pursuit of his goals, to not caring at all. I wondered if maybe Braddock's final words may have influenced him; he did after all say "in this instance, I concur" before killing him. His time with Connor is something like 20 years later, plenty of time for his personality and values to change somewhat.

Assassin_M
12-01-2012, 08:43 AM
I don't think Haytham's actions during his time with Connor completely contradict his earlier actions; he doesn't indiscriminately kill innocents, only those who get in his way or work for his enemies. Which he was prepared to do with earlier in the game (e.g. threatening to kill the captain during his voyage to Boston), and is pretty much what Templars do.

What I did find odd was how his attitude towards it seems to change. He goes from being somewhat regretful of the means he must utilize in pursuit of his goals, to not caring at all. I wondered if maybe Braddock's final words may have influenced him; he did after all say "in this instance, I concur" before killing him. His time with Connor is something like 20 years later, plenty of time for his personality and values to change somewhat.
Without spoiling anything about Haytham`s life, but I can assure you that the Haytham at the start and the Haytham at the end are 2 different people..

The events that Haytham goes through after we switch to Connor are very tragic...

Sackprince
12-01-2012, 09:28 AM
that scene actually remind me of altair (ac1 minor spoiler) when he investigate and beat up those preaching guy's and killed them (END SPOILER) it seems haytham is more like the original assassin's .

Lowly Assassin
12-01-2012, 09:38 AM
The thing with being human is
You are allowed to change your mind
That ismhpw we know we have free will
And that the templars are not in control
Or in other words
Just because haytham thought it was wrong when he was younger, does not make him a hipocryte if that's the sort of person he grew too be
Who are we too judge
We did not live out the whole of haythams life and it is unknown what drove both of the men to become the people they became
One may have done it for no other reason then because he wanted too
While another may have done it as a means to an end

In totally different words

As a person who has a conscious mind
I hate human beings in the way (generalizing) they destroy the world, it's resources and all creatures for no other reason then what seems to be to pass time
But as myself am a human does that make me a hipocryte
As I cannot change being a human
And in then same way, maybe (for some unknown mental or psychological reason) haytham was aware of the other man but unable to change his own path or fate(or call it what you will)

Now I don't believe any of these are true, but you can't go around calling people hipocytes because one thing they said is contradicted by something they do some 20 plus years later
If that was the case I am sure most people are hipocrytes as at some time all boys and girls swear that the opposite sex is icky and disgusting and they will never want to be with them
Yet most of us(humans ) do by majority get together with the opposite sex although the differences there are apparent, a 5 year old no more knows what the future holds as a 20 year old knows what the future holds 30 or so more years down the line

And that sir is my case as to why haytham is not a hipocryte

psf22
12-01-2012, 09:59 AM
In Haytham's missions there are quite a few "Don't kill" optional objectives etc. just to make the twist stand out more, despite all his dialogues. The way he acts after you're playing Connor is simply an artistic license to make him the 'obvious' bad guy. Not to mention that by the end of the game there's a lot more at stake than at the beginning, as they're a lot closer to accomplishing their goals.

Nothing hypocrite about it imo

infamous_ezio
12-01-2012, 10:21 AM
Let's not forget desmond's final decision.

Assassin_M
12-01-2012, 10:29 AM
Let's not forget desmond's final decision.
What does Desmond have to do with this ??

jenyto
12-01-2012, 10:42 AM
I noticed that during gameplay and in my opinion, I see it more as Haytham, after many years of killing and all, has started seeing life as expendable. And being a strong believer in the Order, he tries everything to make his goal happens.

So after all those years since Braddock's death, Haytham has become what he despised in a way.
And for me, that makes him more realistic. Because values and moral can change over time.

Lowly Assassin
12-01-2012, 11:48 AM
I noticed that during gameplay and in my opinion, I see it more as Haytham, after many years of killing and all, has started seeing life as expendable. And being a strong believer in the Order, he tries everything to make his goal happens.

So after all those years since Braddock's death, Haytham has become what he despised in a way.
And for me, that makes him more realistic. Because values and moral can change over time.

I agree with you

cmrggamer
12-01-2012, 03:51 PM
I noticed that during gameplay and in my opinion, I see it more as Haytham, after many years of killing and all, has started seeing life as expendable. And being a strong believer in the Order, he tries everything to make his goal happens.

So after all those years since Braddock's death, Haytham has become what he despised in a way.
And for me, that makes him more realistic. Because values and moral can change over time.

This.
And as Lowly Assassin mentioned, everyone could be called a "hypocrite" at some point in their life--people grow and change, along with their ideas and beliefs.
I really liked Haytham as a character. He was interesting, and I thought he provided some comic relief with some of his dialogue, even if it was dark. His emotions are subtle (like when he finds out Connor's mother died) because his character believes emotions make one weak. He also seemed to kill innocents when he didn't want to risk the chance of them messing with his plans, especially since the Templar goal was almost in arm's reach at some points in the story.

In a way, maybe Haytham was meant to be Connor's foil...Connor never did falter in his core beliefs and morals and I think this was part of the reason Haytham was proud of him.

infamous_ezio
12-02-2012, 10:47 AM
What does Desmond have to do with this ??

His decision goes against what he fights for....

TrueAssassin77
12-02-2012, 11:03 AM
guys... they played haytham up to be a good guy in the first parts of the game.... to increase shock value. nothing more. the rest is speculative opinion. that does not make him a real like character. i have never met a haytham like person in my life. the only time i've seen haythams are on TV and other media.*cough* *cough* james bond* cough*.

ace3001
12-02-2012, 11:20 AM
guys... they played haytham up to be a good guy in the first parts of the game.... to increase shock value. nothing more.Exactly. Otherwise that twist at the end of Seqeunce 3 wouldn't have worked.

MasterAssasin84
12-02-2012, 12:10 PM
It's been a month since I played the beginning parts of AC3, so I could be getting confused, but didn't Haytham say something about Braddock being excessively brutal? Something about Braddock killing too many innocent people? And that's why Haytham severed ties with him.

But then later in the game, we see Haytham do those exact things! For example, in Sequence 9, Memory 1, Haytham puts a bullet through the head of a wagon driver that Connor was questioning. Don't you think Haytham is being just a bit hypocritical?

Haytham cut his ties with Braddock because he did not approve of his methods and tactics, in actual fact i think Haytham was Genuinly sympathetic to innocents who got caught up in the war,
Like Connor he killed on both sides ( anybody who proved an obstical to the cause ).

But even the three Assassin Tenants - Hide in Plain Sight , Stay your Blade from the Flesh of an Innocent , do not compromise the brotherhood are also quite ironic when it comes to the Assassins carying out their missions.

In a nut shell its a case of do what ever is Neccesary to achieve mission Success.