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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:32 PM
This is on the History Channel in the UK at the moment.Very interesting.

Describes the German plans to bomb New York with a 5000lb "dirty " bomb containing radioactive sand! They would airburst it at 15000ft over the city!!!

It describes the Horton designs for a flying wing delivery system and a sub-orbital hypersonic design by Sangar.

Very interesting and thought provoking.

Recommended.

Bo_Nidle

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:32 PM
This is on the History Channel in the UK at the moment.Very interesting.

Describes the German plans to bomb New York with a 5000lb "dirty " bomb containing radioactive sand! They would airburst it at 15000ft over the city!!!

It describes the Horton designs for a flying wing delivery system and a sub-orbital hypersonic design by Sangar.

Very interesting and thought provoking.

Recommended.

Bo_Nidle

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"You've got to treat your kite like you treat your woman! Get inside her 10 times a day and take her to heaven and back!"Lord Flashheart RFC 1917.

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:34 PM
Yeah,I heard about this. Very scary indeed...

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:44 PM
Saw it already in the USA. was interesting an thought provking. Gave me a war into 1946 feel.

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Message Edited on 10/23/0311:42PM by Sniper762x51

XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:44 PM
that's nothing new.
Long Range 4engined Bombers were planed in the late 30's.

Later in the war as the Allied begun to burn our citys with clean bombs and thousands of bombers.
Some sick brains thougt they would stop if the axis could do the same, so they picked up the idear of an long range + high alt bomber mixed it with new technologie and the outcome was the Horton Design e.g (ther were also some of Messerschmit etc)

and by the way what do you think is the B29 supposed to do?
dropping "clean" nukes?

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:46 PM
WOW for real!!!
This is a small world with big minds.

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XyZspineZyX
10-23-2003, 11:47 PM
The "New York Bomber" was uncanny in it's similarity to the USA's B-29. If the Germans were as prone to use secret stunts as the British were, it might have been done. Luckily for New York, the Axis had other priorities.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:23 AM
The Japanese had a plan to do the same thing. They were going to send two submarines (equipped with floatplanes in hangars) to San Francisco. The two planes would then drop "dirty bombs" in the city.They hoped to do this in mid August 1945 but the war ended first. They may not have had enough radioactive material to do this since their German source was cut off.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:31 AM
This is the so calle New York bomber, the Ju390.

http://users.belgacom.net/airimg1/avion1/19456.jpe

There is an unsubstantiated story that it flew within site of the lights of NYC.


This is Messerschmitts "America" bomber.

http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/bomber/me264/me264data.jpg


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Message Edited on 10/23/0307:33PM by MiloMorai

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:32 AM
I saw drawings of the german orbital bomber. It was supposed to bounce on the stratosphere or something like this. It looked awesome!

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:38 AM
Have you ever heard of the German plan to fly Fw-200 Condors from France and bomb the Panama Canal locks, then ditch in the Carribean? Can't remember where I heard it, but interesting nonetheless.

Regards,

SkyChimp

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 12:43 AM
Reinforces the notion of world war all over again. Had the conflict gone on, the leaps in technology and the demands of the war would have undoubtedly pushed further engulfing the world more fully I would think.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:03 AM
Glad WWII ended when it did!

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:07 AM
Bo_Nidle wrote:
- This is on the History Channel in the UK at the
- moment.Very interesting.
-
- Describes the German plans to bomb New York with a
- 5000lb "dirty " bomb containing radioactive sand!
- They would airburst it at 15000ft over the city!!!
-
- It describes the Horton designs for a flying wing
- delivery system and a sub-orbital hypersonic design
- by Sangar.
-
- Very interesting and thought provoking.
-
- Recommended.
-
- Bo_Nidle

The Germans had alot of PLANS... Plannin is easy.. Doing is hard. For example, I plan on winning the LOTO. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:58 AM
SkyChimp wrote:
- Have you ever heard of the German plan to fly Fw-200
- Condors from France and bomb the Panama Canal locks,
- then ditch in the Carribean? Can't remember where I
- heard it, but interesting nonetheless.
-
- Regards,
-
- SkyChimp
-
The Japs were planning something similar with submarine launched torpedo bombers.

By the way I like the Tbolt in your sig /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:26 AM
Bo_Nidle wrote:
- This is on the History Channel in the UK at the
- moment.Very interesting.
-
- Describes the German plans to bomb New York with a
- 5000lb "dirty " bomb containing radioactive sand!
- They would airburst it at 15000ft over the city!!!
-
- It describes the Horton designs for a flying wing
- delivery system and a sub-orbital hypersonic design
- by Sangar.
-
- Very interesting and thought provoking.
-
- Recommended.


I remember seeing this show in the U.S. about a month ago. Very interesting documentary. Gave us an incite into what the war may have been like had it stretched into 1946. However I don't think it would have mattered much at that point anyway. By August of 1945, the Americans would have dropped the A-Bomb on a German city instead of a Japanese one, and ended the war in Europe long before they could have implemented these plans.

By the way, love your sig/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif Lord Flashheart is my favorite Black Ader Character of all time/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:40 AM
i believe the target of those sub launched jap bomers was the panama canal not sanfran...they were sunk i believe before they got to launch the planes

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 07:12 AM
The Ju390 flew within 12 miles of new york city(actually documented by NAZI propaganda.. lol), had enough gas to get there, drop bombs and ditch somewhere in atlantic and get picked up by uboat... problem was they didnt have the resources to really carry out this plan...

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:06 AM
The Germans bombing New York? I've heard that story too, I guess it wouldn't have helped them at all, at least the US didn't bomb German cities (to my knowlegde), only strategic targets...

rgds

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:46 AM
jmmoric wrote:
- at
- least the US didn't bomb German cities (to my
- knowlegde), only strategic targets...
-
- rgds
-
-

What????!!!!???!??!??!?
Which school taught you that rubbish?????

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 08:58 AM
- jmmoric wrote:
-- at
-- least the US didn't bomb German cities (to my
-- knowlegde), only strategic targets...
--
-- rgds


tell that to the inhabitants of Dresden /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif


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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:02 AM
In total war all population centers become stategic targets. Nice sarcasm though =)

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:55 AM
Don't you guy's know anything?

everything the history channel says IS WRONG

im surprised gibbage hasn't already shown up in this thread to put you guys right, and remind you all that your all newbies.

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 09:55 AM
bet you didnt know that the japanese bombed america



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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:02 AM
jmmoric wrote:
- The Germans bombing New York? I've heard that story
- too, I guess it wouldn't have helped them at all, at
- least the US didn't bomb German cities (to my
- knowlegde), only strategic targets...
-


I think someone needs to read up on their history - BIG TIME.

Thats a pretty big mistake to make,jmmoric, America and Britain virtually flattened all of Germany - Cities being a primary target.(and they were considered strategic targets too)

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:44 AM
PZ_D_352FG wrote:
- In total war all population centers become stategic
- targets. Nice sarcasm though =)

Sadly true. In the recent wars each side happened to commit attrocities justifying it by the strategic needs. However I find it difficult to joke or even being sarcastic about the deaths of thousands of civilians, despite the fact that they with their democratic votes had opened the way for the nightmare 10 years before.


OTOH, it has just occured to me that the cases were no attrocities were commited in a war were also dictated by the strategic necessities. Say, in the 100 years war, how could the ironclad knight keep on fighting for 100 years had they been slaying peasants who fed them?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:54 AM
interesting stuff. one thing i often read is the theory of usa nuclear bombs dropping on germany if war would have lasted longer. were there actually plans to do so? afaik germany also had WMD, some sources wrote about 300.000 tons of chemical and biological weapons and this could have been used as retaliation for a nuclear bomb. anyone with more info about that?

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 10:58 AM
In order to use WMD you have to have the reliable means of transporting them towards the enemy's heartland, which is exactly whar Germany lacked by then.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:24 AM
yes, thats really a problem in using these weapons.
on the other hand i think the luftwaffe would still be able to carry out enough missions to do serious damage. lets take the ME 262 which is able to fulfill a bombing mission or a night bombing mission in a small scale on french or english territory. also the ground army would be able to use these weapons as a last resort or imagine the V-2 weapons with chemical warhead. so i am not sure allies would ever have used nuclear weapons on germany cause of this threat. it could have been a total disaster imo.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:33 AM
The problem is, if a Me262 (or whatever) loaded with chemical weapons crashes right after take off (be it shot down, be it a technical failure) than it is Germany that suffers...
_Reliable_ is a keyword.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:41 AM
I'm with HansKnappStick here (what kind of name is that anyway?! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

Compared to a nuclear bomb, chemical or biological weapons in WW2, were nowhere as reliable or destructive. And after WW1 most armies and nations trained in effective countermeasures.

One reason the Germans didn't use gas in the field or against civilian targets was, that WW1 demonstrated the relative ineffectivenes once the opponent had learned to counter the threat.

Another thing is that the delivery vehicles weren't that developed. It's not just a question of dropping a canister filled with gas or germs over a major city. You have to ensure that the deadly ingredients spread over a large area. That's usually done by some kind of explosion, but that very explosion can ruin the chemical ingredients or kill the virus/bacteria. That still a problem for B and C WMD's today.

cheers/slush

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 11:49 AM
Arado 234's were flying semi regular recon flights over the UK in 44-45,due to height and speed they were(virtually)uncatchable I would suspect that if push came to shove they could have been used as a delivery system component.
Is anyone planning to model the 234,it did albeit in a limited fashion, operate against the allies in the final stages of the war in Europe,in that sense it's not a 46'er if you know what I mean.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:03 PM
they also had a 4-engine arado design - the germans were far ahead in jet-bombers and therefore had better means of delivering WMDs than anyone else. not mentioning the V2 and the intercontinental rocket design which was not completed.

also did you see the documentary about the U-234 that left germany in the last days of war - and was supposed to sail to japan ? It was laden with uranium, V2 rocket, Me262 fighter and blue-prints for all of germanys secret weapons. Its crew heard about the end of the war over the radio and decided to surrender to the americans (surrendering to the british empire was a terrible optinon). so a big race between the british, canadians and the americans to get to the submarine started - and the germans were able to reach the americans. the americans had agents running all over europe at that time trying to gather enough uranium for the manhattan project - and this was like a gift from heaven. So the germans not only had better means of delivering WMDs - they also had alot more uranium. But of course the americans were well ahead with their a-bomb design but nevertheless.........

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:23 PM
johann_thor wrote:
- they also had a 4-engine arado design - the germans
- were far ahead in jet-bombers and therefore had
- better means of delivering WMDs than anyone else.
- not mentioning the V2 and the intercontinental
- rocket design which was not completed.

Knock, knock! Hallo!
Delivery of WMD means you have a working, reliable weapon platform. No design, please, "had means" means a machine not a drawing. Such as B-29, built in thousands and flying flawlessly. Not V-2, every third of them (or so) exploded during the start.


- also did you see the documentary about the U-234
- that left germany in the last days of war - and was
- supposed to sail to japan ? It was laden with
- uranium, V2 rocket, Me262 fighter and blue-prints
- for all of germanys secret weapons.
It has always been puzzling me why they couldn't deliver things like radar or a useful aircraft engine, and do it earlier in the war, which could have a bigger impact on the war on Pacific than those hobby toys in the last days.



- the
- americans had agents running all over europe at that
- time trying to gather enough uranium for the
- manhattan project - and this was like a gift from
- heaven.

????


- So the germans not only had better means of
- delivering WMDs - they also had alot more uranium.
- But of course the americans were well ahead with
- their a-bomb design but nevertheless.........

nevertheless what? They didn't use it because they were so good hearted. Come on wake up.

In fact most of the uranium Germans were able to rectify burned down in a laboratory accident. The leader of the project, Werner Heisenberg, was a brilliant theoretician but he was nothing of an experimentalist and couldn't imagine the heat that is produced by the normal decay of uranium.





Message Edited on 10/24/0302:52PM by HansKnappstick

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:48 PM
johann_thor wrote:

- Its crew heard
- about the end of the war over the radio and decided
- to surrender to the americans (surrendering to the
- british empire was a terrible optinon).

I guess this was mostly because of the food.

Regards,

RocketDog.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 01:59 PM
Biggs22 wrote:
- i believe the target of those sub launched jap
- bomers was the panama canal not sanfran...they were
- sunk i believe before they got to launch the planes
-
-


Sounds like a different incident. The planned attack on San Fransisco never took place. The war ended first. It would make more sense to use a dirty nuke on a city than on a canal.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:04 PM
HansKnappstick wrote:
-
- johann_thor wrote:
-- they also had a 4-engine arado design - the germans
-- were far ahead in jet-bombers and therefore had
-- better means of delivering WMDs than anyone else.
-- not mentioning the V2 and the intercontinental
-- rocket design which was not completed.
-
- Knock, knock! Hallo!
- Delivery of WMD means you have a working, reliable
- weapon platform. No design, please, "had means"
- means a machine not a drawing. Such as B-29, built
- in thousands and flying flawlessly. Not V-2, every
- third of them (or so) exploded during the start.


you are missing my point here - the B-29 is far from untouchable - a A-234 is more untouchable .... and a V2 or ICBM is totally untouchable .... i believe we were like imagining a 1946 scenario http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif when you send a B-29 against Ta-152s and jets with 30mm cannons ..... lets just say there is a chance that the WMD carrying B-29 will simply be shot down ... chance enough for the project to be too risky ..... am I wrong ?

-- also did you see the documentary about the U-234
-- that left germany in the last days of war - and was
-- supposed to sail to japan ? It was laden with
-- uranium, V2 rocket, Me262 fighter and blue-prints
-- for all of germanys secret weapons.

- It has always been puzzling me why they couldn't
- deliver things like radar or a useful aircraft
- engine, and do it earlier in the war, which could
- have a bigger impact on the war on Pacific than
- those hobby toys.
-
good point about the radar - but they did licence to kawasaki the DB601 engine and they got He100s ... they did a bad job implementing these designs ... their own fault.

-- the
-- americans had agents running all over europe at that
-- time trying to gather enough uranium for the
-- manhattan project - and this was like a gift from
-- heaven.
-
- ????

you totally missied my point there too - the U-234 carried huge amounts of uraium-oxide - they got it throught he years from mines in switzerland. the americans were in short supply of uranium and the uranium-oxide taken from the U-234 in may 1945 was crucial to the manhattan project ... that was what this U-234 documentary was about.


-- So the germans not only had better means of
-- delivering WMDs - they also had alot more uranium.
-- But of course the americans were well ahead with
-- their a-bomb design but nevertheless.........
-
- nevertheless what? They didn't use it because they
- were so good hearted. Come on wake up.
- In fact most of the uranium Germans were able to
- rectify burned down in a laboratory accident. The
- leader of the project, Werner Heisenberg, was a
- brilliant theoretician but he was nothing of an
- experimentalist and couldn't imagine the heat that
- is produced by the normal decay of uranium.
-


more uranium-oxide i should have said .... and no LOL i did NOT mean that the germans were too good-hearted to use WDMs. hehe far from it ... but see if the germans would have cought up in the race for the a-bomb they would have had far better means of delivering them ... no B29 is going to change my opinion on that ... not that it matters to me a lot hehe http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 02:53 PM
Britain concentrated largely on the destruction of German cities. De US main concern was with strategic targets, but they too bombed Dresden.

blackTIE.

Black.Six wrote:
-
- jmmoric wrote:
-- The Germans bombing New York? I've heard that story
-- too, I guess it wouldn't have helped them at all, at
-- least the US didn't bomb German cities (to my
-- knowlegde), only strategic targets...
--
-
- I think someone needs to read up on their history -
- BIG TIME.
-
- Thats a pretty big mistake to make,jmmoric, America
- and Britain virtually flattened all of Germany -
- Cities being a primary target.(and they were
- considered strategic targets too)
>

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:06 PM
Interesting topic.
I saw a show that reckoned the Japanese were allso planning on using the sub-launched planes to drop 'sand bombs' on US cities, not radioactive, but full of live fleas carrying buebonic plague.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:30 PM
This would help justify the use of the A bomb on japan; because if those were true, it becomes not just a matter of ending the war faster, but a matter of ending it before you get stuck by such a terrible attack first.

Nic

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:40 PM
Black.Six and others wrote:
-
- jmmoric wrote:
-- The Germans bombing New York? I've heard that story
-- too, I guess it wouldn't have helped them at all, at
-- least the US didn't bomb German cities (to my
-- knowlegde), only strategic targets...
--
-
-
- I think someone needs to read up on their history -
- BIG TIME.

Ehh, sorry, my mistake, I was of the understanding that the British bombed the cities and the US tried to hit factories and so on.... Forgot Dresden... My bad..

rgds

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 03:49 PM
In fact, the nuclear attacks on Japan were far "less terrible" than the conventional ones. How many victims of Hiroshima? 120.000? In Tokio raid in spring 1945 over 250.000 people died.

The point is, one plane, one bomb, did something like that.

Anyway it is a true luck that the war ended before the adversaries started exchanging WMD blows of any kind.

XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:15 PM
blackTIE wrote:

"Britain concentrated largely on the destruction of German cities. De US main concern was with strategic targets, but they too bombed Dresden."



well it may be true that america may have concentrated a bit more on legitimate military targets, and also that britain started the carpet bombing of germany, but i'm pretty sure america had a reasonably large part in it - ie alot more than just dresden. My impression was britain bombed german cities by night and america by day.

(america bombed german cities by day that is, not britain bombed america by day /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif )

jmmoric wrote:
- Black.Six and others wrote:
--
-- jmmoric wrote:
--- The Germans bombing New York? I've heard that story
--- too, I guess it wouldn't have helped them at all, at
--- least the US didn't bomb German cities (to my
--- knowlegde), only strategic targets...
---
--
--
-- I think someone needs to read up on their history -
-- BIG TIME.
-
- Ehh, sorry, my mistake, I was of the understanding
- that the British bombed the cities and the US tried
- to hit factories and so on.... Forgot Dresden... My
- bad..
-
- rgds


sorry reading back my post it seems alot more harsh than it was meant to be - however i was surprised you thought america didn't bomb any german cities.
however we all make mistakes from time to time - and everyone can't be expected to know everything about the war /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-24-2003, 04:21 PM
Don't forget the British plans to use Anthrax and/or Brucellosis.....

In spring 1944, British Prime Minister Winston Churchill asked the U.S. government to produce 500,000 bombs filled with lethal anthrax bacteria for retaliatory strikes against Germany in the event Hitler employed BW against Great Britain. To meet this request, the United States constructed a huge anthrax production plant near Terre Haute, Indiana, that was still gearing up when the war ended in 1945.

Without straying too far OT /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif This particular topic is of great interest to myself as I am a Medical Microbiology Graduate and this just so happened to be my final year dissertation / project /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Some very interesting things went on in BW WMD research before during and after WW2 - and some are not all that well known /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

JG5_UnKle

"Know and use all the capabilities of your airplane. If you don't sooner or later, somebody who does, will kick your ***"


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