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View Full Version : Sil's thoughts on AC3 and suggestions for AC3+/AC4 [spoilers]



Silhouelle
11-18-2012, 09:32 PM
So I posted all this in the feed back thread (took ages to type too, urg). Given its length and range of topics I figured I'd also post is as its own topic for people to add their own thoughts or opinions on mine. This was written for the feedback thread so there are no real spoilers. If you guys want to post spoilers though thats cool with me and I'm sure an awesome mod can move it to hints and tips if it becomes too spoilery.

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Story
As this is a no-spoilers thread I'll keep this short. I enjoyed the story alot, especially the parts that dealt with the Templar's views. Would very much like to see the next game continue this, raising questions as to which side is right. Having a character in the Assassins whose cruelty (toward enemies at least) would make him appear bad and a templar who is generally kind, etc, to show that there are various types of people in both organizations so it would be less to do with good vs. evil people and more to do with the overarching beliefs of those individuals as a whole. So, simply put, shades are gray is the more interesting. As I will talk about a bit more below under protagonists, it would be very interesting to see a very interwoven story between two or more characters. It would be easily doable within the lore of the series with siblings, for example, or the use of two separate present day individuals.

Protagonist / Future game Protagonist(s)
As I mentioned, I very much enjoyed Connor as a character and as the protagonist. I felt he was the most in dept and nuanced Assassin thus far and would happily play him in a second game. I apprectiated the fact he was a far more introverted character than prior Assassins. Opting not to share his opinion or thoughts on things frequently and giving a in-character reason for player messing about - Connor always striving to hone his body gives perfect in-character excuses for players climbing everything in sight, taking the longer/more strenuous route to a location because, for the player, it is more fun to climb cliffs and tree-run, while for the character it fits with the given examples of always pushing himself physically.

On the subject of player acting, as Alex Hutchingson (sorry if name is incorrect!) calls it in a few interviews, I was disappointed. The impression I got from those interviews is Connor would interact with the enviroment alot more than he actually does in the finished game. Examples given where leaning against posts, resting with his back to a wall and so on. These things exist for Connor in the context of blending, but not outside of that with the exception of relaxing while in the Y section of a tree. I'd like him to sit down on a branch if you don't move along it for a while, to lean back against a wall if you are stood next to one for a while, to sit down on a chair, etc. I acknowledge the fact it isn't very important though, just something I'd like to see as it adds a believability to the character (and helps for role playing and immersion, of course ^^).

In future games I'd like to see a female assassin on console/PC. I like many other gamers do not own a handheld psp/vita, nor intend on doing so. Given the series' focus on telling a fixed story and narrative, I would imagine a 'create your own assassin' similar to Bioware games would be out of the question, where you choose at start which sex to play as. With that not as an option, I'd suggest at least having two playable assassins (present day also perhaps) as the memories of two ancestors who have lived and been involved with a series of events/history are needed to both be relived in order to see the entire picture. This could be made into a very interwoven story that one will not fully understand until they have played as both charcters for all the story missions.

On the multiple character point; it could be either as a select character at beginning and play through their story, then do the other character(s) as seen in games like Tenchu 2 (still the best example, after all these years, imo). Or the more likely method of playing as each of the ancestors in turns to move through the years the game is set in. HOWEVER, I firmly believe that you should only be required to play a specific character for that characters specific missions (main narrative and side stuff both). For general free roaming and messing about or exploring the player should have the option of changing character as and when they choose, to lessen complaints of people being forced to play as one sex over the other. This way they would only be required to do so for the story segments. Aside from appeasing people who wish to play as either/both sexes, it could lead to a very interesting story and offer further variety to the game. GTAV, though I've no interest in getting it, is a three-protagonist game so one could also look at that for examples and ideas.

Gameplay;
Hunting and general wilderness;
I adored the hunting in this game! I spent a good six hours straight at one point doing nothing but hunting in the frontier. I have a few complaints about it and some suggestions for the next game (which I truly do hope hunting is included therein) and also some ideas I would love to see in a future game/AC3 DLC. For starts I have to say I though the addition of hidden blade kills rewarding the most pristine spoils was a good decision. I myself like to stalk the animals and use the bow or snares/bait as I find it more fun, which is the main thing about hunting. It is good as a source of income early in the game or if you never upgrade the Homestead for trading, using the hidden blade makes hunting fast, easy and rewarding in terms of loot. Using the non essential and/or more damaging methods to hunt is, in my mind, more for those who wish to immerse themselves into the hunting experience wherein the spoils of a kill are secondary to the challenge and fun of the hunt.

The issues I have however is with the additions of only one type of snare and one type of bait. I can understand these being the default or general purpose hunting tools, and the only types you could buy from shops. I really think there was a missed opportunity though, where certain spoils could have then be used as bait itself. Connor should be able to forage for different food types from the wilderness. You can analyze different plants that deers, hare and so on enjoy eating from. An option to have Connor actually take some of that same food for use as bait against that specific type of animal would have been very useful. Hunting a certain animal for its meat to then in turn use to bait a certain type of animal such as a cougar, bobcat or wolf, etc.

Snares I do love using (and in combat - something I'll address below), however they can be awkward at times. Used in an area to capture hares often leads to them being destroyed as deer are often times in that same area. I noticed in one of the screenshots, Connor is actually setting up a bear trap (which we can also see ingame being used by the Homestead huntress), yet is unavailable to us in the full game. It would have been nice to have been able to get such a snare for the largest animals though due to their size it would not render them instantly skinnable, but simply trapped (and angry) so you could get close enough to then use the hidden blades or use the bow, etc, etc.

I also think Connor should be able to mimic, or learn to mimic, some of the different sounds animals make. You could then select which 'whistle' to use and when up against a corner, tree or wherever else whistling works, it would use the one you selected. This could be used to either lure certain animals (or human hunters) toward you or possibly scare them away from you depending on the animal and what whistle you use. This could be used to interesting effects, such as scaring a group of deer out onto a road which would startle the soldiers on it, giving Connor time to attack from another direction and causing mass confusion.

Wilderness Interactivity/Combat;
Within the frontier and homestead I believe Connor should have access to a range of 'homemade' tools and traps. These are things that one shouldn't be able to simply purchase from a store at any point in the game, but rather things that you as a player must decide to gather the materials for to craft (and being able to craft them when in the wild, not via the homestead logbook - for Connor would be making these, not the homesteaders). Connor could make snares of various types, some for animals and some for humans. He could make tripwires that are linked to concealed traps, such as the 'tree branch lash' trap from Farcry 1, leaf covered spikes and so on. All of course with varying times for setting them up. It would add more interactivity with the wilderness to be able to collect items to make such traps, fallen branches to shape into spikes or throwing spears, various fruits and such for baits, vines from Black Creek to make the tripwires or into a item to be used similar to the rope dart where you can hang an enemy with it. Connor has grown up in nature, worked for years to hone his body and become very adept at hunting by time we play him as a teen, he should also possess the knowledge to make such use of the enviroment in this fans humble opinion. ^^

These things would then lend to the player acting of Connor as a guerrilla combatant. Using the various traps and craftable spears/ropes to quickly and efficiently taking out groups of enemies while limiting the risk to himself. Tree branch traps set up along side a mountain path a soldier patrol makes, those would take out the first and maybe second enemy, while the rest then go into alert mode and face forward Connor could use the vine to silently take out the rear soldier, a spear or two to take out others followed by the more traditional hidden blade air assassinations or what have you. You could flee from the remaining soldiers and, obviously, they would follow straight into vine set to trip them up or whatever other options.

Most of these crafted items could be area specific when you make them, so you could carry a set amount of materials only. Then once you craft an item you are restricted to using it in the surrounding area (or having to bring it with you in the same way as carrying a musket, limiting climbing and such). This would prevent cluttering the weapon/tool wheel with an ever increasing number of 'wilderness tools'. How one would set them would be by first crafting the tool/trap in question, which would have Connor crouch down for an animation of whatever duration. Then picking the object up like a regular weapon. From this point you would, using a vine as a tripwire for example, first drop the vine at one side of a road and Connor would perform that 'setting up a snare' animation which would lock the item in place there, then pressing the drop button again when at the other side of the road, between two trees, etc. With sharpened branches into spears you could craft them easily and position them around the area surrounding where your enemy will patrol. Throw one, rush to the next, throw that, etc.

All of this combined could set up very interesting and dynamic guerrilla attacks against large convoys and so on. It would also give those having difficulty with the combat a more stealthy (though very much aggressive stealth) course of gameplay that they may find more manageable and for those who have no difficulty with the combat, it would simply add more options and thus variety, as well as helping player acting and adding to the stealthy options.

Combat;
I don't have overly much to say about the combat on its own, only in relation to other ideas like traps and such like above. I enjoy the combat in AC3 however, moreso than any of the previous games (discounting ACR which I've not played beyond 1hr free trial). AC2 was very easily and ACB even more so. AC3 provides more of a challenge though still not enough for many people, myself included. Much of it could be solved by more intelligent enemy AI. We see on occasion enemies attacking at the same time, enabling Connor to dual counter-kill. It would be interesting if as well as these random occurrences, that the enemies would have a number of multi-person tactics. We see this already with firing lines using muskets, so a close quarters melee variant would be very nice. It could involve enemies of various types attacking Connor in set ways, where you as a player must know how to counter and block each of those enemies specific attacks in quick succession. Connor would be pinned down during this which gives the non attacking enemies the time to group up into a firing line, or reposition themselves to have a circle of soldiers around Connor and so on.

I've nothing really negative to say about the combat however - aside from one very annoying take down. Unarmed, non-R1/RT holding take down. Connor approaches an enemy from behind and unarmed grabs and strangles the enemy into unconsciousness, which is great and something I really appreciate in the game. The issue however is that Connor continues to move forward whilst doing this. If it were while sprinting that would be fine, just walking up behind an enemy to choke them and not pull them back I think was a mistake. Instead Connor goes forward which, if at the edge of a cliff for example, will see Connor simply walk off the edge to fall down. So I would like to see either a more stationary strangle from behind in future game, or the changing of the secondary unarmed take down (by holding R1/RT before hitting attack) into being the same strangle take down only that it moves backward rather than forward, so the player could choose which direction would be more suitable for the situation - also the current R1 takedown looks rather silly. Lifts a guy up to slam him face first to the ground, more suited to an unarmed in-combat takedown I think, rather than out of combat one.

Stealth;
I like the added options for stealth in this game over past entries in the series, though as various people say it is flawed due to telepathic guards all instantly knowing of you upon attacking one enemy to the inability to duck/crouch or take cover anywhere not a corner or designated hiding spot. So while I am very happy with the stealth in AC3 in comparison to previous entries, it still needs more work. Stalking zones are great for hiding from view but we should also have the ability to crouch anywhere. This has been asked for since AC1 if memory serves, and as shown here in AC3 can be easily implemented (Disregarding what other games do). If all it does is let us crouch behind obstacles and foilage to lower chance of detection, that would be nice enough. Being able to move while crouched and sneak closer to animals from behind without the use of trees or stalking zones, without being detected would be awesome. Here are three points I made in a topic relating to the stealth in the game, though these points I've expanded on this time for more detail;

- As has been mentioned having a crouch button would be very useful, lowers the 'detection box' of Connor so we wouldn't be seen quite as easily in the frontier though it would make us instantly stand out in cities and cause faster detection meter build up unless it was used to crouch behind cover so as to break the line of sight with the enemy. Control wise my personal opinion is that L2/LT should be remapped to be crouch. The options menu would provide the setting to have it as a toggle (one press to turn on, one to turn off) or as a constant (holding button down to stay crouched). In either case using R1/RT to run should cancel the effect. The assassins wheel would instead be intergrated into the weapon wheel (personally I don't feel it warrants its own button, especially as it is unusable while in frontier except to send them on missions). Instead you would open the weapon wheel as normal and then press L2/LT to switch to the assassins menu that would act as normal with one exception; you should now be able to bind the selected assassin skill to one of the dpad directions, to save on menu hopping.

- Guards who are more curious and less unprofessional also would be nice. You could actually lure them away from whatever they were guarding by creating mischief somewhere else and the guards then going to investigate mode and looking all over for you. Moving of in small groups to scan the surrounding areas, check around corners, poke hay bales and such. So when investigate mode is trigged, all affected enemies will search hay bales, check nearby trees (from the ground, obviously), stalking zones and so on. It would provide a way to get past enemies into guarded areas without causing player detection if one was careful. Currently we can only really do that now by whistling which has to be fairly close, or by attacking an enemy elsewhere whose body then lures the others away. This way would provide another option.

- No telepathic enemies. Let them shout/scream/fire musket to alert enemies that aren't right beside them. Currently enemies are far too likely to instantly go into alert even though no ingame display of help being sent out by an enemy. Granted you can take out enemies stealthily or even sometimes aggressively and no others will notice. Other times however you will get into a fight with two or three soldiers and magically soldiers from surrounding areas will learn of this. This is especially noticeable in the fort gameplay. I don't really have much in the way of suggestions for this so I'll leave it as a constructive complaint and hope the AI or whatever is improved upon for the next entry in the series.

Customization;
My final topic (go go gadget TLDR!). As someone who enjoys roleplaying games and games that allow the creation of my own unique character, I was quite dissapointed in the appearance customization for AC3. Yes I realize and don't mind that I am unable to create my own assassin, given it is a fixed narrative and character (tho one could look at Mass Effect to argue otherwise). My issue is more to do with the clothing. Yes we get some different outfits in the game and thats great, they however are few and do not lend themselves to all aesthetic interests. I remember watching the dev diary videos (or the IGN making of ones, not sure which) and it showed Connor running about with a leather/hide cloak over his shoulder and back. I would like such things in the next game or as DLC for this one. Being able to purchase a variety of 'add on clothing' to personalize the basic outfits. Take Connor's normal robes for example, he has customized those by having his native bands around his upper arms, adding a feather here and there and such. That is what the player should be able to do, to add misc aesthetic items to the outfit to tailor it to their liking.

I for one really, really liked the concept art piece of Connor wearing a very travel worn looking collection of hide clothing, complete with a wolf head hood. Alex Hutchingson mentioned in an interview that some of these concepts just didn't fit the theme and such, which I'll accept and not argue for the basic outfits. However I do think we should have the option of tailoring the main outfit into one resembling that and other concept pieces.

For the player choice of character sex I wrote about my ideas for it above under protagonists in a way that would add to the games story and variety. A bare bones option for choosing which sex to play as however would be acceptable. Bioware games have shown this off for a while, particular the Mass Effect series. You have one character which could be of either sex. The character him/herself is practically unchanged in terms of story, personality or interactions aside from the odd unique dialogue snippets mostly found in Bioware's romances. The next game in the AC series, depending of course on what happens in the present day situation, could introduce us to a new modern day protagonist. If so, and if there is only one, I would like to see the option to choose that characters sex at the beginning which in turn will then make the ancestor that same sex. In the event that there are more than one modern day protagonists, as mentioned up above under that topic, I'd like to see one of each sex and have them only be required playing for character specific story segments and missions but outside of that while just exploring or messing about allow us to play as the character of our choice.

Phew, all done!
That ended up being far longer than I had planned... Well, thank you to those who have the patience and/or interest to read all of that, especially so if you are a developer on the AC games! I don't really give scores to games in the sense of ? out of 10, so I'll just say this: I love AC3 and found, and continue to find, it well worth the money I payed for it and shall buy the next main console game in the series. Regrettably I will not be purchasing a vita for the sole purpose of buying Liberation, despite it having the first female character as playable.

~ Sil.

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TLDR; Pineapples!

Assassin_M
11-18-2012, 09:52 PM
Great Analysis..and agreed on all the Needed points for the coming games..

:rolleyes:Chocolate Strawberries

ProdiGurl
11-18-2012, 10:22 PM
First, Pineapples! :D I've been eating it for lunch for almost 2 weeks... weirdness lol.
Great thread & input. When I get time I'll post more but have to sign off.

I really like Connor. To me, his personality and character type is more about his Indian culture and heritage. I don't think it would be fitting if he was more like Ezio (much as I adore him). I also like that he's introverted.

My biggest advice for the next AC (hopefully yearly) - is more music/soundtrack. I think that's affected alot of AC fans with a more hollow or empty feeling as we do so much free roam in dead silence.
If there were more music presence I believe it would pick the mood & tone up and probably would have changed some negative perceptions so it felt more like the usual AC.
:)

Silhouelle
11-18-2012, 11:31 PM
My biggest advice for the next AC (hopefully yearly) - is more music/soundtrack. I think that's affected alot of AC fans with a more hollow or empty feeling as we do so much free roam in dead silence. If there were more music presence I believe it would pick the mood & tone up and probably would have changed some negative perceptions so it felt more like the usual AC. :)
I definately agree with this. I think one of the reasons people aren't connecting with Connor is the lack of music in a lot of the cutscenes. Prior games would have music that would influence and further add to the mood, emotion or actions on screen. Not seen all that much with Connor sadly.

:rolleyes:Chocolate Strawberries
Just for you! :D

Lol, I see its not full black or the gray colour, hrm. I always highlight your posts btw, all those little ninja comments :b

LoyalACFan
11-18-2012, 11:38 PM
I definately agree with this. I think one of the reasons people aren't connecting with Connor is the lack of music in a lot of the cutscenes. Prior games would have music that would influence and further add to the mood, emotion or actions on screen. Not seen all that much with Connor sadly.

This. And bring back Jesper :(

mazohystic
11-18-2012, 11:45 PM
This. And bring back Jesper :(

Although I did think that Lorne did a great job, I kinda agree with this. The music was certainly lacking something that didn't exactly reflect Connor too well. If you listen to previous soundtracks you think "Ezio" and "Altair" but with this one, all I thought was "epic frontier."

Also. Psst. #171717 for ultimate ninjification of posts. :]

Assassin_M
11-19-2012, 12:08 AM
Although I did think that Lorne did a great job, I kinda agree with this. The music was certainly lacking something that didn't exactly reflect Connor too well. If you listen to previous soundtracks you think "Ezio" and "Altair" but with this one, all I thought was "epic frontier."

Also. Psst. #171717 for ultimate ninjification of posts. :]
I`m a Ninja

Silhouelle
11-19-2012, 12:28 AM
Well, the only thing I'd say about what little of the music Lorne did (that is present in the game) that I heard enough times to remember is that is seems very hollywood. Though I absolutely loved the music playing during the 'speck of dirt' scene, was awesome.

Ninja Pineapples!

Assassin_M
11-19-2012, 12:29 AM
Well, the only thing I'd say about what little of the music Lorne did (that is present in the game) that I heard enough times to remember is that is seems very hollywood. Though I absolutely loved the music playing during the 'speck of dirt' scene, was awesome.

Ninja Pineapples!
Did you highlight the Post above ? :p

EDIT: There You go..Getting the hang of it;)

pirate1802
11-19-2012, 05:58 AM
Chocolate coated strawberries any day of the year!

Oh wait, there's a review too...

shobhit7777777
11-19-2012, 06:05 AM
Good stuff. Agree with the whole Guerrilla warfare para...that's a great idea.

But

You...you just...referred to yourself in the third person...

Silhouelle
11-19-2012, 03:16 PM
Did you highlight the Post above ? :p
Of course, I always highlight your posts. :b

You...you just...referred to yourself in the third person...
In the feedback somewhere or you mean just in the topic title? Besides, I'm made of such awesome that I sometimes need to refer to myself in the third person. Otherwise it can be overwhelming! :3

shobhit7777777
11-19-2012, 03:43 PM
Of course, I always highlight your posts. :b

In the feedback somewhere or you mean just in the topic title? Besides, I'm made of such awesome that I sometimes need to refer to myself in the third person. Otherwise it can be overwhelming! :3

Hahahahaha.........



C'mere
*whips out a baton and a tazer*

Silhouelle
11-19-2012, 03:58 PM
C'mere
*whips out a baton and a tazer*
O.O

Don't make me turn you into a pineapple pincushion! I'll do it!!

ProdiGurl
11-19-2012, 04:29 PM
There was a better vid that someone posted a couple days ago & I can't find it, but you can see how music brings so much to scenes and characters.
As soon as I hear these songs, I can feel the emotions that connect my experience w/ Ezio & the whole game.
Same for ACR (I'm not sure if that's a female thing?).
I think Sil has it right, you lack the connections you need to build. There weren't enough unique & kool background sounds going on to fill in that gap.
I remember in RE4, just the eerie wind sounds could take the place of music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L2AAOW12aJM&feature=related

shobhit7777777
11-19-2012, 07:05 PM
O.O

Don't make me turn you into a pineapple pincushion! I'll do it!!

lol

No seriously...Come here...

*racks pistol slide*

Torvaldesq
11-19-2012, 09:00 PM
Protagonist / Future game Protagonist(s)
As I mentioned, I very much enjoyed Connor as a character and as the protagonist. I felt he was the most in dept and nuanced Assassin thus far and would happily play him in a second game. I apprectiated the fact he was a far more introverted character than prior Assassins. Opting not to share his opinion or thoughts on things frequently and giving a in-character reason for player messing about - Connor always striving to hone his body gives perfect in-character excuses for players climbing everything in sight, taking the longer/more strenuous route to a location because, for the player, it is more fun to climb cliffs and tree-run, while for the character it fits with the given examples of always pushing himself physically.

I completely disagree with this. Connor was by far the worst Assassin we've had yet. Don't get me wrong, I still loved AC 3, but they wasted a lot of potential storytelling power by relying on such a badly done character. It isn't just a case of others having more games to flesh out their personality either. Altair obviously had little personality in AC 1, but got a pretty big dose of personality through reading his writings in AC 2, and playing as him in other AC games (Bloodlines and especially AC Revelations). Ezio obviously had lots of development in his trilogy. Neither is necessarily as impressive as great characters from novels, but they were still relatively well done characters by the end.

If I felt like it would be solved by just giving Connor more games, that would be one thing. But Connor's problems aren't in what he keeps silent about, his actions and motivations seem ridiculous. His connection to the Revolution feels extremely tenuous, his holding of its ideals so high seems absurdly out of character for someone with his history.

SPOILER AHEAD FOR ALL OF CONNORS STORY

It feels like the half-native american protagonist idea was really, forcefully shoehorned into this game. They really wanted to do Revolutionary America, and they thought, "Boy, wouldn't it be cool to have someone representing a group that's kind of on the sidelines as it happens and gets forced into choosing sides." Well, not if you want to make someone really gung-ho about the colonials' notions of freedom. Someone raised as a colonial would have worked much better if they were going to do that. The colonials aren't fighting someone who is enslaving them, they're fighting a distant government levying taxes without representation. I love the American Revolution, but I'm not blinded into thinking that it makes a huge amount of sense for native americans to be swept up into the same fervor about liberty as the colonials over what Britain was doing to them. Governance and taxes and even the form of government (democracy, which in the game lore is also easily manipulated by Templars, just like monarchies can be) really seem like they would be well below the type of freedom the Assassin's struggle against the Templars for. The Assassin's are fighting for ACTUAL FREEDOM OF WILL, yet Connor acts like the Colonists have a goal that reaches such a level of freedom that the Assassins would only be on the Colonists side. Especially weird since the Templars are more on the side of the revolutionaries than they are on the British side, which ought to make Connor question why he thinks the American Revolution is so clearly in line with the Assassins. Are the Assassin's really that idealistic about parliamentary tax policies for distant territorial governance? What kind of education did Achilles give Connor?

Connor has ONE moment of major, formative trauma as a child at the start of the game - the death of his mother when the village is burned. He blames Charles Lee for this, but when he finds out it was done by George Washington? Very little fallout, practically nothing long-term. And to boot, he finds out shortly before another attack is sent by Washington against HIS village. And that attack ends with his best friend fighting him until Connor kills him. And what's Connor's reaction after that? He helps the revolutionaries at the battle of Monmouth shortly afterwards. Seriously? You just killed your best friend and stopped the continental army from burning your village, and you come back to George Washington to warn him again about Charles Lee? You're going to be more angry with Charles Lee for warning your village about the attack and telling them that you were too in deep with the colonists than you are with Washington who is responsible for your village being burned the first time and for the second attempted attack? Really?!

For someone raised as part of the Iriquois Confederacy, where MOST tribes joined the British, Connor's actions and lines seem laughable. Yeah, not everyone joined the British, but Connor never even struggles with it. You get one conversation with your best friend in the tribe about this, where Connor basically says, "stay neutral and wait." It's one of those walk alongside the character conversations, not a real cutscene one, and there's no real emotion or deeper discussion about why Connor is so certain in the side he picked. That Connor feels he needs to kill the Templars still makes sense, of course, because of the vision that Juno gave him as a teenager. But the Templars aren't the British, they're on both sides. That gives him a reason to fight the Templar conspiracy, but the personal emotion behind it is weak (which is amazing, given that your father is one of them). Speaking of his father, you start out by showing that you're pissed at him for ordering the attack that killed your mother. Then you find out he didn't order the attack. At first you're upset because you feel manipulated by the timing of the revelation, but there's NEVER a moment where Connor shows struggle with the revelation changing his beliefs about the death of his mother and burning of his village as a child.

Connor wasn't introspective. He just kind of bumbles from one mission to the next, showing zero depth in how he thinks about the issues with the colonists or his people. If they wanted to use a protagonist raised among a tribe of the Iroquois Confederacy, he should have been significantly more divided in his loyalties. Significantly. His friendships should have mattered more throughout the game. (The fact that you are friendly acquaintances with Sam Adams and Paul Revere doesn't get developed much further than the fact that you're happy to be their errand boy). Achilles could have been used a lot more than he was (I suppose that could be fixed with DLC, but he should have carried more emotional weight in the game as it is right now).

I'm sure I'll enjoy the DLC. I'm not saying I hated the story of the game, there's a lot to the story beyond Connor. But for any future games, I really hope they never use Connor again. I enjoyed him less than Altair (Altair might not have started out deep, but lack of character is better than a badly done character). I enjoyed him a lot less than Ezio (Ezio had his problems, but even just with AC 2 he had much more emotional weight behind him than Connor did). I did really enjoy Haytham. Though he wasn't very developed, the development he did have wasn't poorly done. Most of him is still a mystery by the end. (It'd be fun to get DLC where we get to see how he went from being the son of an Assassin to one of the Templar's grand masters).

I'm not going to get into the Desmond stuff. I'll just say I felt the conclusion could have been done better in the game.

Assassin_M
11-19-2012, 09:07 PM
^ You got a lot of things wrong up there..

You can hate Connor, though. That`s your Opinion. What`s not Opinion is how much depth Connor Had..

Connor`s thoughts are shown during some Loading screens and his reasons to "Help" the Patriots are explained very well..

That said, I sincerely hope Ubisoft makes Another Connor Game...

daltonesque
11-19-2012, 09:54 PM
AC4 should be set in the Civil War. The African couple on the Homestead's child should end up being trained by Connor and his or her offspring should be the Assassin. Black Assassin!!! How awesome would that be?! The naval missions would be ridiculous what with the ironclads of the civil war not to mention huge battles like Gettysburg, Fort Sumter, a main mission where you try to stop John Wilkes Booth but you're too late. Not to mention killing slave masters to free slaves and helping Harriet Tubman and the Underground railroad. Would be SIIIICK.

daltonesque
11-19-2012, 09:55 PM
It could also be a descendant of Achilles he didn't know about or something. I would really like to see more of Achilles early life, or at least know more about his story.

daltonesque
11-19-2012, 09:59 PM
I completely disagree with this. Connor was by far the worst Assassin we've had yet. Don't get me wrong, I still loved AC 3, but they wasted a lot of potential storytelling power by relying on such a badly done character. It isn't just a case of others having more games to flesh out their personality either. Altair obviously had little personality in AC 1, but got a pretty big dose of personality through reading his writings in AC 2, and playing as him in other AC games (Bloodlines and especially AC Revelations). Ezio obviously had lots of development in his trilogy. Neither is necessarily as impressive as great characters from novels, but they were still relatively well done characters by the end.

If I felt like it would be solved by just giving Connor more games, that would be one thing. But Connor's problems aren't in what he keeps silent about, his actions and motivations seem ridiculous. His connection to the Revolution feels extremely tenuous, his holding of its ideals so high seems absurdly out of character for someone with his history.

SPOILER AHEAD FOR ALL OF CONNORS STORY

It feels like the half-native american protagonist idea was really, forcefully shoehorned into this game. They really wanted to do Revolutionary America, and they thought, "Boy, wouldn't it be cool to have someone representing a group that's kind of on the sidelines as it happens and gets forced into choosing sides." Well, not if you want to make someone really gung-ho about the colonials' notions of freedom. Someone raised as a colonial would have worked much better if they were going to do that. The colonials aren't fighting someone who is enslaving them, they're fighting a distant government levying taxes without representation. I love the American Revolution, but I'm not blinded into thinking that it makes a huge amount of sense for native americans to be swept up into the same fervor about liberty as the colonials over what Britain was doing to them. Governance and taxes and even the form of government (democracy, which in the game lore is also easily manipulated by Templars, just like monarchies can be) really seem like they would be well below the type of freedom the Assassin's struggle against the Templars for. The Assassin's are fighting for ACTUAL FREEDOM OF WILL, yet Connor acts like the Colonists have a goal that reaches such a level of freedom that the Assassins would only be on the Colonists side. Especially weird since the Templars are more on the side of the revolutionaries than they are on the British side, which ought to make Connor question why he thinks the American Revolution is so clearly in line with the Assassins. Are the Assassin's really that idealistic about parliamentary tax policies for distant territorial governance? What kind of education did Achilles give Connor?

Connor has ONE moment of major, formative trauma as a child at the start of the game - the death of his mother when the village is burned. He blames Charles Lee for this, but when he finds out it was done by George Washington? Very little fallout, practically nothing long-term. And to boot, he finds out shortly before another attack is sent by Washington against HIS village. And that attack ends with his best friend fighting him until Connor kills him. And what's Connor's reaction after that? He helps the revolutionaries at the battle of Monmouth shortly afterwards. Seriously? You just killed your best friend and stopped the continental army from burning your village, and you come back to George Washington to warn him again about Charles Lee? You're going to be more angry with Charles Lee for warning your village about the attack and telling them that you were too in deep with the colonists than you are with Washington who is responsible for your village being burned the first time and for the second attempted attack? Really?!

For someone raised as part of the Iriquois Confederacy, where MOST tribes joined the British, Connor's actions and lines seem laughable. Yeah, not everyone joined the British, but Connor never even struggles with it. You get one conversation with your best friend in the tribe about this, where Connor basically says, "stay neutral and wait." It's one of those walk alongside the character conversations, not a real cutscene one, and there's no real emotion or deeper discussion about why Connor is so certain in the side he picked. That Connor feels he needs to kill the Templars still makes sense, of course, because of the vision that Juno gave him as a teenager. But the Templars aren't the British, they're on both sides. That gives him a reason to fight the Templar conspiracy, but the personal emotion behind it is weak (which is amazing, given that your father is one of them). Speaking of his father, you start out by showing that you're pissed at him for ordering the attack that killed your mother. Then you find out he didn't order the attack. At first you're upset because you feel manipulated by the timing of the revelation, but there's NEVER a moment where Connor shows struggle with the revelation changing his beliefs about the death of his mother and burning of his village as a child.

Connor wasn't introspective. He just kind of bumbles from one mission to the next, showing zero depth in how he thinks about the issues with the colonists or his people. If they wanted to use a protagonist raised among a tribe of the Iroquois Confederacy, he should have been significantly more divided in his loyalties. Significantly. His friendships should have mattered more throughout the game. (The fact that you are friendly acquaintances with Sam Adams and Paul Revere doesn't get developed much further than the fact that you're happy to be their errand boy). Achilles could have been used a lot more than he was (I suppose that could be fixed with DLC, but he should have carried more emotional weight in the game as it is right now).

I'm sure I'll enjoy the DLC. I'm not saying I hated the story of the game, there's a lot to the story beyond Connor. But for any future games, I really hope they never use Connor again. I enjoyed him less than Altair (Altair might not have started out deep, but lack of character is better than a badly done character). I enjoyed him a lot less than Ezio (Ezio had his problems, but even just with AC 2 he had much more emotional weight behind him than Connor did). I did really enjoy Haytham. Though he wasn't very developed, the development he did have wasn't poorly done. Most of him is still a mystery by the end. (It'd be fun to get DLC where we get to see how he went from being the son of an Assassin to one of the Templar's grand masters).

I'm not going to get into the Desmond stuff. I'll just say I felt the conclusion could have been done better in the game.

I think Connor believing so much in the Colonials is more a representation of the naivete of a wonderfully honest and heartfelt people who were easily swayed and mislead by foreign interests because they naively assumed those they put their trust in were possessed of the same integrity. The fact is by the end of the story Connor tells Washington not to ever call on him again and realizes how mistaken he was trusting any of those in power, Colonials or Britains.

daltonesque
11-19-2012, 10:04 PM
Oh...... and Charles Lee is a snake. Don't forget he said all those derogatory things about Connor's people and said he'd see them wiped from the Earth. Plus I truly think Connor would have rather seen his people die than to bend to the will of the Templars. Washington may have ordered those attacks but it was because he saw a threat not human refuse. I think that makes a big difference to Connor. That's what's cool about him. You don't always know what the "strong silent type" is thinking.

Torvaldesq
11-19-2012, 10:16 PM
^ You got a lot of things wrong up there..

You can hate Connor, though. That`s your Opinion. What`s not Opinion is how much depth Connor Had..

Connor`s thoughts are shown during some Loading screens and his reasons to "Help" the Patriots are explained very well..

That said, I sincerely hope Ubisoft makes Another Connor Game...

I didn't get anything wrong up there. The "Loading Screen" internal monologues are weak dialogue and add little more to him than we see during the missions. The occasional "I guess I have my doubts" (delivered in a pretty passionless voice) during some initial sequence loading screens changes nothing. He doesn't show any real struggle on this stuff with his friends, allies, or tribe, and spouts off liberty language in a kind of parrot fashion (a mention or two of slavery to Sam Adams doesn't do anything.to make him seem deeper). In fact, those little pieces of dialogue actually make it worse. This stuff was staring them in the face, enough that they knew a viewer would feel a mention of them ought to be made, but then it has no real effect on the protagonist. Had they gone with a colonial protagonist, that would have made more sense. Instead, Connor - with his history - just comes across as ruefully dense.

The fact that Connor is a man of few words, who laces those words with contempt in the way he talks to everyone doesn't make him deep. The deepest moment he had is when he confronted Achilles at the start of Sequence 9 about wanting to reveal the whole Templar / Assassin struggle to Washington and criticizing Achilles for failing the Assassins. It says something that what might be his most passionate moment is one where it doesn't even draw an ounce on his native heritage or personal history - it just draws on the general Assassin / Templar conflict and the sense that Achilles must have let down the brotherhood.

Torvaldesq
11-19-2012, 10:41 PM
Oh...... and Charles Lee is a snake. Don't forget he said all those derogatory things about Connor's people and said he'd see them wiped from the Earth. Plus I truly think Connor would have rather seen his people die than to bend to the will of the Templars. Washington may have ordered those attacks but it was because he saw a threat not human refuse. I think that makes a big difference to Connor. That's what's cool about him. You don't always know what the "strong silent type" is thinking.

I mentioned that Lee had told your people derogatory things in my first post. I just don't see it as all the powerful compared to the revelations you have about Washington and the fact that your mother's death was not caused by Lee (or Haytham). Lee's action in warning your village about the attack and badmouthing you to your friend gives you a reason to continue on after him, but his role seems very weak as an antagonist (nothing even close to what AC 2 was able to accomplish with the Borgia). The fact that your best friend believes him weirdly makes more sense than if he hadn't, given how little you interact with your people and how little thought goes into your actions. But that's not a good trade-off. Aside from that, just in relation to your tribe, Lee doesn't seem particularly dangerous to your people at that moment, given that he's warning them of a raid on them.

The stuff Lee says at the very end is enough to make you want to go after him hard. But my criticism is directed at the whole of the story. Lee doesn't make his speech about wiping out your people until the very last sequence - even then, Lee's issues are less with your people and more about revenge against you for killing his Templar mentor. Again, I'm not saying you had no reason to go after the Templars, but the only real reason left is because of Juno's message to you. I expected the game to do a better job of weaving historical reasons for your actions with the goals of Juno.

The point Connor reaches at the end of saying, "Don't call on me again," comes way too late (and weirdly, after Connor shows himself being a bit upset that Washington isn't just going to execute Charles Lee - Connor says not one word about what Washington had JUST DONE regarding his village).

Connor really needed to have a much more divided loyalty and should have been more sophisticated in his approach. He just comes across as startlingly naive. And it's not that representative of his people. Most of those tribes weren't naive, they sided with the British, and the debate and discussion on the issue was intense. You'd expect Connor, who gets an education not just in his people's history, but also in a sophisticated hidden history through Achilles, to be a lot less naive.

shobhit7777777
11-20-2012, 11:25 AM
^ You got a lot of things wrong up there..

You can hate Connor, though. That`s your Opinion. What`s not Opinion is how much depth Connor Had..

Connor`s thoughts are shown during some Loading screens and his reasons to "Help" the Patriots are explained very well..

That said, I sincerely hope Ubisoft makes Another Connor Game...

What?

Whether a character has depth or not is entirely subjective...regardless of any narrative devices or segments used to explain backstory, motivation etc.
One person's "depth" may not be enough for the next.

Connor's characterisation and his reactions to events are what fleshes him out as a character...and they certainly could've done more to the narrative to drive home the point that Connor is more than the wide eyed lad we started off with in the beginning act.

Like I said....his character has a lot of potential..and is interesting and certain nuances really make you identify with the guy..but the overarching narrative fails to elevate Connor to Ezio levels. That is one of the reasons why I want another game with Connor as the protagonist.

You may like Connor but you also need to understand WHY people dislike him...and there are valid reasons.

Also, I implore you to sort out this "Opinion=/=Fact" Objective vs Subjective arguments you tend to fall back on since I don't think you've actually grasped the concept. You seem like a smart lad...time to start talking like one

Kaswa101
11-20-2012, 04:57 PM
Well, the only thing I'd say about what little of the music Lorne did (that is present in the game) that I heard enough times to remember is that is seems very hollywood. Though I absolutely loved the music playing during the 'speck of dirt' scene, was awesome.

Ninja Pineapples!

Lorne did an awesome job, but it lacked atmosphere. It needed more ambient tracks to complement the personal part of Connor's story.

Although I must admit, some of the tracks are excellent, particularly the main theme. ;)