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Multimetal
09-01-2004, 02:45 PM
I figure that someone on this forum will know this-was the early Mustang variant with the 4x20mm cannon armament an actual serial vesrsion, or just an experiment? It would be great to have the Mustang Mk.1 recon variant in the game. An early recon campaign would be fun, flying solo over occupied France with total Luftwaffe air superiority....I need to practice making missions! Thanks for any info.

Multimetal
09-01-2004, 02:45 PM
I figure that someone on this forum will know this-was the early Mustang variant with the 4x20mm cannon armament an actual serial vesrsion, or just an experiment? It would be great to have the Mustang Mk.1 recon variant in the game. An early recon campaign would be fun, flying solo over occupied France with total Luftwaffe air superiority....I need to practice making missions! Thanks for any info.

Platypus_1.JaVA
09-01-2004, 02:50 PM
IIRC it was the Mustang Ia. That is even before the P-51A.

It was a version, meant for the RAF. 150 of them where build but, about 60 of them went with the USAAF. But, there is very little known about this version. All the attention always goes to the P-51D.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB

Chuck_Older
09-01-2004, 02:58 PM
I have a book here with a picture of an RAF Mustang, serial AM190, cannon armed, that served with No. 516 squadron

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Multimetal
09-01-2004, 03:24 PM
There is a great book called, if I remember correctly, "The Mustang Story", which has a lot of info about the early history of the Mustang, which most books tend to skip over. The stories of the early recon pilots in Mustangs are really interesting, they had some pretty hair-raising experiences. Even though they weren't supposed to engage enemy fighters, a few of them became aces. I bet the UK/Europe map that will ship with BOB will be great for a campaign like this.....

berg417448
09-01-2004, 03:24 PM
This link has some info about early model Mustangs with the RAF:

http://home.att.net/~jbaugher1/p51_4.html

horseback
09-01-2004, 04:40 PM
The second version of the Mustang was ordered with 4X20mm Hispano cannon instead of the original 2X.50 cal under the nose and 2X.50 + 4X.303 in the wings. As stated earlier, 150 were ordered in late 1941 (just before the initial complement of MK Is became operational in January 1942), and production models came off the line in summer 1942, by which time the USAAF had 'first dibs' on any aircraft built in the US.

The USAAF took about 60 of the cannon armed Mustangs, designated them P-51, and assigned the majority of them to Observation squadrons, in keeping with the RAF's success using the original type as a fast low level recon fighter. The RAF got the rest, and used them as replacements for the MK Is' attrition, designating them Mustang MK Ia.

The P-51s saw some use in North Africa, joined some time later by A-36 Apache/Invader dive bombers, which were quite successful.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

p1ngu666
09-01-2004, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Platypus_1.JaVA:
IIRC it was the Mustang Ia. That is even before the P-51A.

It was a version, meant for the RAF. 150 of them where build but, about 60 of them went with the USAAF. But, there is very little known about this version. All the attention always goes to the P-51D.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge,
ye shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be measured
to you again.

Placed 3rd, with team, in the official european championship Il-2/FB
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well, the p51 was made/designed for the brits, and we later stuck a merlin in it aswell http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

and what could be more british, than from that web page
The first Mustang I operational sortie was on July 27, 1942. Mustang Is participated in the disastrous Dieppe landings by British commandos on August 19, 1942, where it saw the first air-to-air action. During this operation, pilots of No 414 Squadron of the RCAF were attacked by Fw 190s. An American RCAF volunteer, F/O Hollis H. Hills, shot down one of the enemy, which was first blood for the Mustang.

a american, flying for the caniadens, who to a certain extent flew for the british http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

btw there is a half finished a36 (p51a dive bomber) model for fb. unlikely to get finished http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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WTE_Galway
09-01-2004, 07:29 PM
i have always had a preference for early and mid war planes .. P51a, Mk I Spitfire, Emil, p38 etc

i can understand the interest in the late war stuff like the P51D but its never really appealed to me personally

k5054
09-02-2004, 05:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> An American RCAF volunteer, F/O Hollis H. Hills, shot down one of the enemy, which was first blood for the Mustang.

a american, flying for the caniadens, who to a certain extent flew for the british

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just part of the Hollis Hills story, he later became an ace flying Hellcats for the USN.

The RAF continued to use their Allison Mustangs long after D-day on the continent and only gave them up when they ran out of airframes. The WEP boost they used was far higher than anything you will see in a Mustang ref, and those a/c were no slower at low level than any Merlin P-51. Wish we had one in AEP.

Jasko76
09-02-2004, 08:42 AM
So why didn't they stick with the cannon armament. IMHO, 4 x 20 mm cannon are far more devastating than 4 x 12,7 mm machine guns. Can you imagine a P-51D with four cannon? Ehhh...

Regards,

Jasko
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Kartveli
09-02-2004, 08:50 AM
Congress wouldnt allow any more $$$ for fiscal year 1942 for fighters at the time, so USAAC and NA circumvented this by producing the type as the A (for attack) 36 apache...to define it as an attacker, dive brakes and the cannon were fitted

p1ngu666
09-02-2004, 06:24 PM
a36's where used to long range escort in the cbihttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. the type did have abit of trouble with the dive brakes not popping open evenly.

p51A's where used past d-day, down low they where "atleast as fast as the merlin's" quotin from a book btw.

p51a was used on low level hit and run, or search and destroy missions. also may have escorted mossies to some targets

i dont know about the gun thing mind, maybe weight and americans not liking the 20mm

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WTE_Galway
09-02-2004, 06:40 PM
there seemed a distinct bias towards the 0.50 cal in the US that continued up until korea

it wasnt until presented with evidence that 0.50 cal pretty much bounced off a MIG without scratching it that opinion changed

berg417448
09-02-2004, 07:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WTE_Galway:
there seemed a distinct bias towards the 0.50 cal in the US that continued up until korea

it wasnt until presented with evidence that 0.50 cal pretty much bounced off a MIG without scratching it that opinion changed<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


The .50 was not the best weapon but "bounced off" of a MIG? Hardly. Far too many MIGS were killed for that to be true.

The .50 made them work real hard for their kills since jets didn't burn as well way up at high altitude but a .50 isnt going to bounce off of aluminum.

horseback
09-02-2004, 07:52 PM
1. A-36s had six .50 cals-two under the chin, and two each on the wings. No cannon. That was limited to the Mustang MK Ia/P-51.

2. the .50 cal heavy MG was the best aerial gun available to the US at the time-Hispanos for the Mustang Mk Ia/P-51 were supplied by Britain, and were not readily available in the numbers needed. 'c' winged Spits, designed for 4 Hispanos, rarely carried more than 2. For some reason, the Oldsmobile 37mm didn't catch on.

3. US authorities found the .50 sufficient to their needs, and it provided a lot more 'firing time' for the weight compared to the 20mm cannon. The benefits of a single type of heavy machine gun for almost all military purposes also had tremendous advantages from a logistic standpoint.

4. there was quite a bit of pressure to develop a decent American made aerial cannon, which ultimately led first to the M-39 and then the M-61 Vulcan in the '50s for the later Century series fighters (F-104 & F-105). It just took time.

5. In 1941, the .50 was believed to be an effective air to air weapon, and frankly, it met the needs of the USAAF and Naval air arms quite well, particularly in the absence of heavy bombers to shoot down. Like the Hispano, the MG-FF, and the ShVAK, it had been developed and proven before the war, and earmarked for mass production in its country of origin. Nothing was readily available to replace it.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

WTE_Galway
09-02-2004, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by berg417448:

The .50 was not the best weapon but "bounced off" of a MIG? Hardly. Far too many MIGS were killed for that to be true.

The .50 made them work real hard for their kills since jets didn't burn as well way up at high altitude but a .50 isnt going to bounce off of aluminum.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Obviously they did not literally "bounce off".

The MIG was heavily armored much like an IL2 and in Korea many many MIG's returned to base after multiple 0.50 cal hits whereas they did not recover so well from 20mm cannon shots. If you like I can chase up links to quotes from alled pilots of the time about how difficult it was to down a MIG with just 0.50 cal.

Its a historical fact, the 0.50 cal was more than adequate in WWII but by Korea was showing its age.

The Mig of course had its own well known armament issues the poor rate of fire of the big guns and the ballistic mismatch between its primary and secondary armament.

Here is a quote from a debate on the matter:

"Beyond doubt the best armament in use consisted of four Hispano cannon, in either the American M3 or the British Mk.V version. This offered both high destructive power and a high muzzle velocity. But the two best fighters of the war were the F-86 and the MiG-15: The armament of the first had a high muzzle velocity but was deficient in destructive power, and for the second the reverse was true. This rather absurd situation was the result of different priorities and a too late understanding of the importance of sweptback wing designs"

from: http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/Hangar/8217/fgun/fgun-fk.html

LStarosta
09-02-2004, 08:26 PM
Not sure if anyone touched on this, but the Allison powered early Mustangs, armed with 4x20mm cannon were designated A-36.

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horseback
09-02-2004, 11:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LStarosta:
Not sure if anyone touched on this, but the Allison powered early Mustangs, armed with 4x20mm cannon were designated A-36.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Starosta, read my first post in this thread-the primary source is Robert Jackson's 'Mustang-The Operational Record', published in 1992. The A-36 carried 6 .50s, two under the nose and two in each wing, the wing installation being the same as that in the P-51A and P-51B/C Mustangs. It was the first of the Mustang 'line' to be directly ordered by the USAAF, production deliveries beginning in September, 1942.

Cannon were installed in the second batch of Mustangs ordered by the RAF, 57 of the 150 ordered being 'hijacked' by the USAAF as they left their production line in July, 1942. These were designated Mustang MK IA by the British, and P-51 by the Army Air Force.

Assigned to the 111th and 154th Observation Squadrons of the 68th Observation Group, 55 of the 57 were fitted with two F24 oblique cameras in the rear fuselage, and used like their British counterparts, for high speed low level reconnaissance. They were later redesignated F-6As to reflect their photo-recon role. A number of P-51As were later similarly modified and redesignated for the same role in many theaters, doing much good work.

cheers

horseback

"Here's your new Mustangs, boys. You can learn to fly'em on the way to the target. Cheers!" -LTCOL Don Blakeslee, 4th FG CO, February 27th, 1944

SkyChimp
09-02-2004, 11:20 PM
That's a damned shame the A-36 got dropped. I'd like to see a well modelled P-51A in the game. Apparently, that was one sweet ride.

Regards,
SkyChimp
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