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infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 01:42 PM
First off, i apologize if anyone gets upset that another thread has been made, but i feel like this needs to be pointed out as alot of people believe that they just dropped some major plot points, i'm talking about the whole subject 16 ACB truth video.

This ending has got me thinking, doing a bit of digging. If you all remember the ACB ending, where desmond is climbing his way through the Colosseum, lucy mentions that the date is october 10th, which is 72 days from the satellite launch, at the end desmond says "it's the door code, someone wants to make sure we get it right" Who wants them to get it right? well if you guys saw that on the temple door, is the same symbol, the same as the one on juno's temple door... Juno planned this, she wanted to make sure they got through the door on that exact point in time.

Ok, so you maybe sitting there thinking, "what about everything subject 16 said?".. at first i thought they abandoned this idea, but that would just be plain stupid... when you break down what 16 says, it makes much more sense.
"it's far later then you know it, too late to save them" - referencing that it is too late, he is already on the path of releasing Juno, "them" being the entire population.
"she is not who you think she is" - This can have 2 meanings, i think the main reference is to lucy though, considering on the truth video it says "the miracle is in the execution"
"everything you hope to become, everything you hold dear, it's already gone" - Desmond hopes to save the world, but that is already lost if he follows this path, because releasing Juno will most likely have the same outcome
"eve... find eve, in eden, the key... her DNA" - In ac3 shaun mentions how they should go back to first civ times once this is all over, In the AC2 truth video, we see adam and eve running and starting the rebellion against TWCB, I think it's safe to assume that eves DNA holds the key to stopping juno (they had the ability to fight against TWCB first time around, why couldn't it happen again?")
"The sun, your SON" - This bit is the only part that confuses me, how can desmond's son have a part in this? does desmond have a kid that we don't know about?
You should also note clays quote from TLA - "I have seen, what has been, what will be". He makes a big deal about what's to come, and that makes me think that maybe he knows the truth about juno, remember, he did witness what happened around the time of the first civ.

I don't think they have abandoned these plot points, in a podcast with jeff yohalem, when he was asked the explain the ACB truth, he said "There are alot of secrets their, they are not forgotten, we have alot planned, you'll have to wait and see".. when loomer asked him if it was mostly going to be explained in AC3, he replied "there is alot of stuch that is apart of a much bigger journey", he ofcourse doesn't specify that it's post AC3 stuff. But I think it's obvious enough that all that info is for something much bigger then Desmond's story. Desmond's story has ended, but the story continues...

The last thing which i think is important is to note the ACB ending, when the apple activates, shaun sees all the images and specifically points out the phrygian cap which stands for freedom, and masonic eye - "the all seeing eye of god". Ofcourse this the obvious indicator of the amercan revolution setting, but also have a meaning in the AC3 ending, Juno knows all apparently, and desmond is faced with the decision, freedom, or control from a "god"...
Now, here's the real kicker..
Juno says as desmond grabs the apple - "On the 72nd day before the day of awakening, You, birthed from our loins, and the loins of our enemies. The end and the beginning, who we abhor and honor. The final journey commences. There is one who will accompany you through the gate, she lies not within our sight, the cross darkens the horizon. The path must be opened. You cannot escape your part in this, the scales shall be balaned. You know very little, we must guide you, cease your struggle. It is done, the way lies before you, only she remains to be found. Awaken the sixth, go alone." Juno is quite controlling when forcing desmond to stab her, she knew that lucy planned on stealing the apple, she need to make sure nothing would be in the way of desmond opening up the temple. I think the hole "she" is juno referencing herself, and the sixth, being the sixth method of salvation which is mentioned in AC3, to summarize it, it involved something wrong to allow a consciousness to escape a vessel, juno worked on this method to create a method to release her self .

I believe this was all planned, and the problem that most people are having is that some of the plot points are actually for the much bigger journey. I'm glad they took this path, better then a cliche happy ending... IMO
I can't stand not fully understanding this, so i've put in a fair bit of effort to try and suss things out :). I think we need a pod cast, so loomer/escoblades if you're reading this, you know what you must do..... ;)

NumberSix1967
11-05-2012, 02:29 PM
This is actually a very good post and an excellent recap/link to the current game's story but I have a few questions, which may be able to be answered now or perhaps in future.

1. Why was Juno in the temple?

2. Why did thee First Civilisation not try out The Sixth Method prior to the solar flare?

3. Is it possible the 2012 solar flare was never going to be as bad as predicted and Juno simply used the fear surrounding the event in her favour - to get her released?

3. The themes in AC3 dealt with the moral right of each side and the effects of the Assassins and Templars on the world. It was paranoid order v a naive freedom - both of which lead to a natural conclusion: someone is always in charge. When Minerva mentions that the Assassins and templars had been squabbling for hundreds of years, which supposedly is a bad thing, what did she mean regarding it being a hindrance to saving the world? To explain: she says the arguing has surely been getting in the way of saving Earth, which it has because if both sides worked together perhaps they could have been free of Juno's manipulations. But, this surely implies there was a way to save Earth. If so, what was it, because The Sixth Method would have released Juno?

4. If The Templars' satellite would have failed (as stated by Desmond), then...what would they have done? What did they even want with The Temple anyway, to find more artefacts to use as a power source?

5. What 'freedom' is it the Assassins actually refer to? Societies always have an order. Surely they'd know this and surely then their entire cause s more about fighting Templars than actually releasing people. In fact, to make it so there is 'no order', they'd have to alter human nature, thus control, thus be a kind of Templar unit themselves. Wouldn't having the world reset free everyone of the binds of years' worth of Templar ruin?

infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 02:56 PM
This is actually a very good post and an excellent recap/link to the current game's story but I have a few questions, which may be able to be answered now or perhaps in future.

1. Why was Juno in the temple?

2. Why did thee First Civilisation not try out The Sixth Method prior to the solar flare?

3. Is it possible the 2012 solar flare was never going to be as bad as predicted and Juno simply used the fear surrounding the event in her favour - to get her released?

3. The themes in AC3 dealt with the moral right of each side and the effects of the Assassins and Templars on the world. It was paranoid order v a naive freedom - both of which lead to a natural conclusion: someone is always in charge. When Minerva mentions that the Assassins and templars had been squabbling for hundreds of years, which supposedly is a bad thing, what did she mean regarding it being a hindrance to saving the world? To explain: she says the arguing has surely been getting in the way of saving Earth, which it has because if both sides worked together perhaps they could have been free of Juno's manipulations. But, this surely implies there was a way to save Earth. If so, what was it, because The Sixth Method would have released Juno?

4. If The Templars' satellite would have failed (as stated by Desmond), then...what would they have done? What did they even want with The Temple anyway, to find more artefacts to use as a power source?

5. What 'freedom' is it the Assassins actually refer to? Societies always have an order. Surely they'd know this and surely then their entire cause s more about fighting Templars than actually releasing people. In fact, to make it so there is 'no order', they'd have to alter human nature, thus control, thus be a kind of Templar unit themselves. Wouldn't having the world reset free everyone of the binds of years' worth of Templar ruin?

thankyou :) I'll try my best to answer!

1. Back in the first civ times, Juno betrayed minerva, tinia and the rest, as a reasult they fought back and killed her and her buddies. They dumped the bodies in temple i'm guessing, however they weren't aware that Juno survived.

2. They did, but they abandoned it because it was 'wrong', when you insert the second last power source Juno refers to the sixth method. How entering a vessel was easy enough, but exiting was the hard part, could be that this required a mass sacrifice, or something. Juno worked on her own method, which was similar to the sixth where it required desmond's touch to activate it.

3. I don't think so, minerva and tinia implied that it was pretty bad, Juno used it as a way to black mail desmond into releasing her.

4. If you remember the ending of AC2, minerva refers to how her kind and the humans fought, and while they were doing this they weren't aware of the bigger picture, which was the sun. so evidently, while they were focusing on killing each other, the sun was getting ready to fry them up, if they had not been fighting, and instead working together, the disaster could have been avoided. It's never mentioned how minerva and tinia thought desmond could save the world, maybe it was already there, but because Juno wanted them to be there on that exact date, maybe that was the time she needed to modify there solution in her favor. That's my guess.

4. It's mentioned that the first civ used an eye to try save the world, but that failed. The templars want to save the world, by using control, they have the same goals as the assassin's, but different means of achieving it.

5. Well, desmond had the choice, kill billions of people and let people be free, or let everyone live but allow someone to control them.. this idea is continuously enforced through connor's story. "it's never enough", "it never will be enough", but what can we do? do we just reset and start this over again, They make this clear at the end when showing what would happen if desmond follows minerva. Instead of resetting and allowing this to happen, we break this cycle and move forward, and hope that something different can occur, when desmond mentions that they will find a way to stop juno, he is going by this. As said by achilles "life is not a fairy tale and their are no happy endings", which is true, this isn't your typical ending, but it's a chance to move forward.

Layytez
11-05-2012, 03:24 PM
You basically took my ideas and expended on it. Nice one :).

Apirka
11-05-2012, 03:35 PM
What I'm wondering, if by the time Desmond got to the temple it was already too late because they wasted to much time fighting the Templars, similarly to the struggle between TWCB and humanity... why does Minerva specifically talk to Desmond at the end of AC2?

infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 04:14 PM
What I'm wondering, if by the time Desmond got to the temple it was already too late because they wasted to much time fighting the Templars, similarly to the struggle between TWCB and humanity... why does Minerva specifically talk to Desmond at the end of AC2?

It was too late, the idea that minerva had in the mind was the the templars and assassin''s would end their feud, work together to come up with a solution, it's even mentioned in AC3, how they talk about going to abstergo. One of the methods mentioned, juno mentioned how minerva (and tinia in revelations) dealt with time calculations, she tried to pass the message on to desmond through ezio as mentioned when you insert one of the power sources.

Just to add onto my original post, anyone remember the ending of AC3, how when will opens the van, the temple is there and the female symbol appears in the gate? well guess we can tell what they were hinting at! this pretty much confirms that the "she" from brotherhood is Juno, but i still believe that 16's message meant something else..

NumberSix1967
11-05-2012, 04:38 PM
What I'm wondering, if by the time Desmond got to the temple it was already too late because they wasted to much time fighting the Templars, similarly to the struggle between TWCB and humanity... why does Minerva specifically talk to Desmond at the end of AC2?

She does mention in AC3 that the messages/conversations she had with Desmond/Ezio previously were from a time when she knew nothing of Juno's plans or incarceration in The Grand Temple. She used her 'time calculations' [?] to send future echoes to people to try to guide them to the Temple, but once she discovered Juno's plan she sent her last message to the very time she knew people would have discovered the key and thus, The Sixth Method. So, in effect, this should be the last we ever see if Minerva because following her appearance in AC3, she died with the rest of her civilisation whereas Juno hibernated/hid in the Temple itself, fully aware that the technology to stop a massive solar flare was ready and waiting - something she would be able to link to her own release, or else allow a second human catastrophe.

It was a totally tacked on plot point, to be fair, and a way of stretching the story out in order to make new games but I suppose it does make sense. I just wonder why after sending all the information possible to The Temple, no one else thought that it wasn't best to leave a crazy woman down there with tonnes of powerful secrets, or you know, to maybe hide themselves.

Apirka
11-05-2012, 04:46 PM
It was too late, the idea that minerva had in the mind was the the templars and assassin''s would end their feud, work together to come up with a solution, it's even mentioned in AC3, how they talk about going to abstergo. One of the methods mentioned, juno mentioned how minerva (and tinia in revelations) dealt with time calculations, she tried to pass the message on to desmond through ezio as mentioned when you insert one of the power sources.


But how would have putting their feud aside helped? By the time Desmond got the message it was only a few months until the solar flare. If anything they should have told Ezio, or even Altair, or hell, tried to leave Connor a message. Using Ezio to give Desmond a message turned out completely useless, because Desmond would have never had the time to do anything. (Also, how did neither of them get the idea that maybe Juno had a backup play and add a "Beware Juno, she's completely bonkers" to their message?)

Layytez
11-05-2012, 04:47 PM
She meant too late as in Juno has interfered with what Minerva had planned. If Juno was actually dead, the remains of the eye would be there for Desmond to finish.

Apirka
11-05-2012, 04:49 PM
She does mention in AC3 that the messages/conversations she had with Desmond/Ezio previously were from a time when she knew nothing of Juno's plans or incarceration in The Grand Temple. She used her 'time calculations' [?] to send future echoes to people to try to guide them to the Temple, but once she discovered Juno's plan she sent her last message to the very time she knew people would have discovered the key and thus, The Sixth Method. So, in effect, this should be the last we ever see if Minerva because following her appearance in AC3, she died with the rest of her civilisation whereas Juno hibernated/hid in the Temple itself, fully aware that the technology to stop a massive solar flare was ready and waiting - something she would be able to link to her own release, or else allow a second human catastrophe.

Doesn't she at one point complain about the Templar-Assassin feud? I think she did. Perhaps I should watch the ending again, but ugh. DNW.

De Filosoof
11-05-2012, 04:49 PM
So why did Clay help Desmond in ACR if he knew Desmond would release Juno?


I think you're looking way too far into this.

They ****ed up.
There was some very bad story writing in the modern-day segments.
This isn't part of a brilliant plot.
They just ****ed it up and threw it away...

F4H bandicoot
11-05-2012, 05:35 PM
So why did Clay help Desmond in ACR if he knew Desmond would release Juno?


I think you're looking way too far into this.

They ****ed up.
There was some very bad story writing in the modern-day segments.
This isn't part of a brilliant plot.
They just ****ed it up and threw it away...

Your opinion.

pirate1802
11-05-2012, 05:42 PM
Your opinion.

Actually its easier to whine than to make sense of it all. People just don't want to use their heads. The writers indeed ****ed up. They should have just gone with Desmond activating the thingy and saving the world. No TWCB BS. Less things to wrack your brains on, less dead heroes, less angry fans.

F4H bandicoot
11-05-2012, 05:55 PM
Actually its easier to whine than to make sense of it all. People just don't want to use their heads. The writers indeed ****ed up. They should have just gone with Desmond activating the thingy and saving the world. No TWCB BS. Less things to wrack your brains on, less dead heroes, less angry fans.

It's always easier to whine.
The fans that are angry are the ones who don't or don't want to understand it (in the majority), it's a complex ending yeah, I agree, some questions are left unanswered too, but they do this deliberately for a number of reasons.
Seriously, after being a massive ME fan I think I know a fair bit about being disappointed. The ending of this, aside from being nothing like the ME atrocity, makes you think, isn't all that easy to understand, but it's hinted at, it's not 'rushed' in the sense they just churned it out, it's obviously had though put into it to make it work, and it makes a lot of sense when combined with the rest of the info we have. There was always going to be some TWCB stuff, they are the kind of background force of the whole series, so for them not to be there in some guise would be stupid too.

They finished what they said they would, Desmond saved the world.

Apirka
11-05-2012, 06:16 PM
It's always easier to whine.
The fans that are angry are the ones who don't or don't want to understand it (in the majority), it's a complex ending yeah, I agree, some questions are left unanswered too, but they do this deliberately for a number of reasons.

Don't you think that's too generalizing? I'm perfectly willing to understand it and I'm perfectly willing to think about it and make sense of it at all. The mysteries have been one of my favourite things about the series, after all. And I still don't like it. I don't like Connor's ending (or indeed, sequence 11 and 12 as a whole), I don't like a lot of things about this game, but I particularly don't like the modern day ending. There's nothing that really interests me there. Finding Clay's messages in the first game? Interesting. The introduction of the TWCB (and the Truth video)? Interesting. Lucy's death and Juno's monologue (as well as Clay's message)= Interesting. ACR was the first ending I was kind of meh about, but even that was more interesting than AC3. I just don't like it. I'm past only whining about it and ready to speculate, but that still doesn't mean I like it.

As I said in another thread, mysteries get boring if left unattended for too long. And imho, mentions of Eve should have been in the main game, not (just) Liberation.

infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 06:20 PM
So why did Clay help Desmond in ACR if he knew Desmond would release Juno?


I think you're looking way too far into this.

They ****ed up.
There was some very bad story writing in the modern-day segments.
This isn't part of a brilliant plot.
They just ****ed it up and threw it away...

Clay helped desmond get out of the coma, that's it

I see what you mean, part of me thinks they just messed up the story and completely left it out, I'm really eager to find out though, hopefully someone does a podcast....

F4H bandicoot
11-05-2012, 06:30 PM
Don't you think that's too generalizing? I'm perfectly willing to understand it and I'm perfectly willing to think about it and make sense of it at all. The mysteries have been one of my favourite things about the series, after all. And I still don't like it. I don't like Connor's ending (or indeed, sequence 11 and 12 as a whole), I don't like a lot of things about this game, but I particularly don't like the modern day ending. There's nothing that really interests me there. Finding Clay's messages in the first game? Interesting. The introduction of the TWCB (and the Truth video)? Interesting. Lucy's death and Juno's monologue (as well as Clay's message)= Interesting. ACR was the first ending I was kind of meh about, but even that was more interesting than AC3. I just don't like it. I'm past only whining about it and ready to speculate, but that still doesn't mean I like it.

As I said in another thread, mysteries get boring if left unattended for too long. And imho, mentions of Eve should have been in the main game, not (just) Liberation.

I see a bunch of people that are disappointed, which is fine. And a bunch of people, such as filosoof, who don't seem to be able to grasp that you have to think about the ending or don't want too, and therefore just go around calling it ****.
It's not for instance, an awe inspiring, feel awesome ending, that does not make it 'bad'. It can be a good ending and still be disappointing.
I've been on both sides of the coin, I've basically posted **** on the BSN about ME3, etc. however, In some cases, I believe that is warranted, eith the ME3 ending, fans were lied too, told different stuff, and ultimately given a badly written overall game, with the ending just a part of the overall problem (many people just pushed this too the side, with the ending being the problem), here, we have an ending that sets out to do what it was meant to, Desmond saves the world. The rest of the stuff is hinted at (even in past games) and most of the stuff (after reviewing) points to something like this happening. Not badly written imho. It's no 'great ending', but it's certainly not what many people are making it out to be either.

Apirka
11-05-2012, 06:39 PM
See, the difference is that I wouldn't call a disappointing ending good. Yeah, it's nowhere ME3 levels (though I still think what matters in the end is what the fans make it into -- we already have a petition, if the ending hate really takes off it really doesn't matter that ME3 was worse), but that doesn't really make it good. A good ending should either keep people interested (and I'm interested not because of this ending, but because I still like the other games enough not to run off), or be satisfactory. This isn't either, at least in my case.

lodylody
11-05-2012, 06:54 PM
I would've been fine with the Juno cliffhanger. *shrugs* But I wanted a full resolution of everything else. And that Liberation ending just mind-****ed me... "Eve will lead us in the War of Generations."

I think that they've been intentionally ambiguous to get us all thinking. I think Juno's "she" and "Eden" is her, the key to the door and the Grand Temple.

I think Subject 16/Clay's Eve is different, as is the key... Clay seemed to know everything. "Everything you hold dear, it is already gone" - because in saving the world, they will lose the Freedom the Assassin's want. I think he is advising for something else... we just don't know what.

We just have to hope that in DLC they'll clear up this whole Eve thing.

pirate1802
11-05-2012, 07:07 PM
They better fix the myraids of bugs and bring back Connor's hood. Those are bigger problems with the game IMHO.

infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 07:48 PM
See, the difference is that I wouldn't call a disappointing ending good. Yeah, it's nowhere ME3 levels (though I still think what matters in the end is what the fans make it into -- we already have a petition, if the ending hate really takes off it really doesn't matter that ME3 was worse), but that doesn't really make it good. A good ending should either keep people interested (and I'm interested not because of this ending, but because I still like the other games enough not to run off), or be satisfactory. This isn't either, at least in my case.

Would you have rather had a happy ending where desmond and friends save the world and everything works out for the best?
I'm glad they did what they did, but part of me thinks they have left out interesting plot points, part of me wants to believe they have any idea of what they're doing. I really want clarification on this whole subject 16 truth thing.

infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 07:51 PM
I would've been fine with the Juno cliffhanger. *shrugs* But I wanted a full resolution of everything else. And that Liberation ending just mind-****ed me... "Eve will lead us in the War of Generations."

I think that they've been intentionally ambiguous to get us all thinking. I think Juno's "she" and "Eden" is her, the key to the door and the Grand Temple.

I think Subject 16/Clay's Eve is different, as is the key... Clay seemed to know everything. "Everything you hold dear, it is already gone" - because in saving the world, they will lose the Freedom the Assassin's want. I think he is advising for something else... we just don't know what.

We just have to hope that in DLC they'll clear up this whole Eve thing.

I haven't seen the liberations ending but i'll check it out now.

haha pretty much what i've already said dude, but yeah you get what i'm saying, the revelations ending with the female symbol in the gate got me thinking, this could be that "she" that juno was referring to, and clay's eden/eve could be for the bigger picture, which is what jeff yohalem seemed to hint at.

we'll just have to wait and see!

NumberSix1967
11-05-2012, 07:58 PM
Doesn't she at one point complain about the Templar-Assassin feud? I think she did. Perhaps I should watch the ending again, but ugh. DNW.

Minerva mentioned that she felt the Assassins and Templars squabbling held humanity back regarding finding a solution to the future catastrophe. Here's a question, why on earth did 'the saviour' have to be a descendant of Altair? Why not just any descendant of the First Civilisation - I'm sure there are many of them around who aren't involved in the Assassins v Templar troubles. Wouldn't it have just been easier to have ANY of these descendants release Juno? Oh, wait...but Juno, 85,000 years ago, wanted to wait for people to get the technology to travel through their genetic memories in order to find a few batteries and a key. Ah, right. Er. Well, I suppose the answer is no because Juno only managed to see into the future and send forward certain conversations to certain points and kind of hope for the best and use the solar flare as a bargaining chip. Okay, that's fine. I have answered my own question but...yep, Ubisoft messed this up royally in terms of interest and in-context logic. That mixed with the game itself being flawed has made for a poor product or at least a disappointing one. As you've mentioned, we can understand it and talk about it in every way until the cows come home but it doesn't mean we'll ever like it. The good thing with fiction is that all this mess is completely fixable.

I kind of wish these games had no relation to the future and were all about the Assassins' struggles against the Templar Order. It would be a series of linked historical games using a common theme, as it already is with the added crux of having magic people and solar flares involved. Hey, maybe it will all turn out to be a dream or corrupted memories from someone else....who knows?!

F4H bandicoot
11-05-2012, 08:07 PM
Minerva mentioned that she felt the Assassins and Templars squabbling held humanity back regarding finding a solution to the future catastrophe. Here's a question, why on earth did 'the saviour' have to be a descendant of Altair? Why not just any descendant of the First Civilisation - I'm sure there are many of them around who aren't involved in the Assassins v Templar troubles. Wouldn't it have just been easier to have ANY of these descendants release Juno? Oh, wait...but Juno, 85,000 years ago, wanted to wait for people to get the technology to travel through their genetic memories in order to find a few batteries and a key. Ah, right. Er. Well, I suppose the answer is no because Juno only managed to see into the future and send forward certain conversations to certain points and kind of hope for the best and use the solar flare as a bargaining chip. Okay, that's fine. I have answered my own question but...yep, Ubisoft messed this up royally in terms of interest and in-context logic. That mixed with the game itself being flawed has made for a poor product or at least a disappointing one. As you've mentioned, we can understand it and talk about it in every way until the cows come home but it doesn't mean we'll ever like it. The good thing with fiction is that all this mess is completely fixable.

I kind of wish these games had no relation to the future and were all about the Assassins' struggles against the Templar Order. It would be a series of linked historical games using a common theme, as it already is with the added crux of having magic people and solar flares involved. Hey, maybe it will all turn out to be a dream or corrupted memories from someone else....who knows?!
Juno manipulated 'history' from her hiding spot, she probably crafted the whole Templar Assassin conflict to make sure she would be set free.
The descendent also had to have high levels of TWCB DNA, and be able to access things like Juno's vault so that she could 'direct' them to the vault (killing Lucy lets them into the vault effectively).
The whole series was effectively crafted by Juno so that releasing her was the only option. Juno does not see into the future either, she's alive. Minerva is the one who 'sees' into the future.

Apirka
11-05-2012, 08:08 PM
Would you have rather had a happy ending where desmond and friends save the world and everything works out for the best?
I'm glad they did what they did, but part of me thinks they have left out interesting plot points, part of me wants to believe they have any idea of what they're doing. I really want clarification on this whole subject 16 truth thing.

Nope. I don't mind Desmond dying -- though I'm not content with the way it was done because it didn't evoke nay emotion apart from "Really? That's it?" (which I guess is still better than my reaction to Haytham's death...) -- but I would have liked to have some new information on the ld mysteries (particularly the stuff Clay brought up as well), and I really don't care for Juno turning out to be evil. I think it would have been far more interesting if she had, despite her hatred and her father's and husband's death turned out to be on our side. As it is, her character isn't as interesting to me as she could have been.

infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 08:09 PM
Minerva mentioned that she felt the Assassins and Templars squabbling held humanity back regarding finding a solution to the future catastrophe. Here's a question, why on earth did 'the saviour' have to be a descendant of Altair? Why not just any descendant of the First Civilisation - I'm sure there are many of them around who aren't involved in the Assassins v Templar troubles. Wouldn't it have just been easier to have ANY of these descendants release Juno? Oh, wait...but Juno, 85,000 years ago, wanted to wait for people to get the technology to travel through their genetic memories in order to find a few batteries and a key. Ah, right. Er. Well, I suppose the answer is no because Juno only managed to see into the future and send forward certain conversations to certain points and kind of hope for the best and use the solar flare as a bargaining chip. Okay, that's fine. I have answered my own question but...yep, Ubisoft messed this up royally in terms of interest and in-context logic. That mixed with the game itself being flawed has made for a poor product or at least a disappointing one. As you've mentioned, we can understand it and talk about it in every way until the cows come home but it doesn't mean we'll ever like it. The good thing with fiction is that all this mess is completely fixable.

I kind of wish these games had no relation to the future and were all about the Assassins' struggles against the Templar Order. It would be a series of linked historical games using a common theme, as it already is with the added crux of having magic people and solar flares involved. Hey, maybe it will all turn out to be a dream or corrupted memories from someone else....who knows?!

That is a very ignorant response... In ACR it's mentioned that desmond is 'special' because of his genes/herritage, only 1 in a million (i think they said a million) of people on the planet have high concentrations of first civ DNA, He didn't have to be a descendant of altair.. it isn't ever stated in the games that to save the world he had to be a descendant of Altair... Desmond's ancestors were important figures in history, because of this it was easy for TWCB to communicate with them & hence, desmond. Desmond is the conversion of many important blood lines, which lead to him having a high concentration of first civ DNA, and being one of the very few in his time with this trait. It could have been any one with high amounts of first civ DNA, but why not just stick with desmond, he was born into the assassin's, he had ancestors which came into contact with the PoE (this allows the first civ to communicate with them)... It all makes sense..

As for the hole eve thing, my god people, the liberations ending pretty much tells us that they haven't given up on this idea...

infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 08:16 PM
Nope. I don't mind Desmond dying -- though I'm not content with the way it was done because it didn't evoke nay emotion apart from "Really? That's it?" (which I guess is still better than my reaction to Haytham's death...) -- but I would have liked to have some new information on the ld mysteries (particularly the stuff Clay brought up as well), and I really don't care for Juno turning out to be evil. I think it would have been far more interesting if she had, despite her hatred and her father's and husband's death turned out to be on our side. As it is, her character isn't as interesting to me as she could have been.

I agree 100%. The ending just made me sit and there and think.. that's it? I like the concept, the idea was well thought out, the way they presented it though was shocking, it was rushed and just horrible. I mean, your son's about to die, so you just accept it and walk off? comeon ubisoft... To me it feels like they just don't care for desmond, which is what bothers me, because the only reason i follow this series, is for his story.. well i like the history part but his is far more interesting (mostly because of clay, god that guy is cool)
I just watched the liberations real ending, man.... "eve will save us from enslavement" or something... pretty much referencing what i'm saying in my OP... Corey may is a smart dude, I think they know where they are heading, we will just have to wait... this is killing me.... after i finished AC2... "man i have to wait another year?"!!?!??!.. when i finsihed ACB "I HAVE TO WAIT ANOTHER ****ING YEAR?!!??!?!!?!?!?" when i finished ACR "**** YOU ****ING **** **** **** **** I DONT WANT TO WAIT ANYMORE!!!!!!" when i finished AC3... " mother ****er!" haha :)

Apirka
11-05-2012, 08:17 PM
I kind of wish these games had no relation to the future and were all about the Assassins' struggles against the Templar Order. It would be a series of linked historical games using a common theme, as it already is with the added crux of having magic people and solar flares involved. Hey, maybe it will all turn out to be a dream or corrupted memories from someone else....who knows?!

I've actually considered it all being viewed via an Animus. there are some odd jumps from scene to scene during the opening, when you enter the cave, there is that visual effect when a cutscene starts during the modern day parts, there is the fact that Desmond can "die" if you misjudge a jump (I fell during the skyscraper mission and there was no hint that he managed to get a hold of something and climbed back up, he just respawned), the fact that you can get shot without consequences (and yes, I did actually get hit -- while chasing Cross through the hall. Desmond almost fell of a crate, so the shot didn't miss), there are oddities like killing cross on one of the crates in the hall while everyone is shooting at you and the cutscene having Desmond back on the upper levels without anything showing how he got back up there -- if he used the Apple, Vidic should have known about it when he got to the office, and I think guards that get suspicious have that yellow/red triangle over their head.

But maybe that's just gameplay and story segregation. It's a bit odd, though, since Ac has avoided these things for the modern day part until now.

infamous_ezio
11-05-2012, 08:25 PM
I've actually considered it all being viewed via an Animus. there are some odd jumps from scene to scene during the opening, when you enter the cave, there is that visual effect when a cutscene starts during the modern day parts, there is the fact that Desmond can "die" if you misjudge a jump (I fell during the skyscraper mission and there was no hint that he managed to get a hold of something and climbed back up, he just respawned), the fact that you can get shot without consequences (and yes, I did actually get hit -- while chasing Cross through the hall. Desmond almost fell of a crate, so the shot didn't miss), there are oddities like killing cross on one of the crates in the hall while everyone is shooting at you and the cutscene having Desmond back on the upper levels without anything showing how he got back up there -- if he used the Apple, Vidic should have known about it when he got to the office, and I think guards that get suspicious have that yellow/red triangle over their head.

But maybe that's just gameplay and story segregation. It's a bit odd, though, since Ac has avoided these things for the modern day part until now.

Corey may stated in an interview that this scenario will not happen, would be interesting, but won't happen

Apirka
11-05-2012, 08:30 PM
Ah, I see. I've stayed away from interviews and all so I wouldn't be spoiled in any way. So they're just oddities. (Really wonder what the point of that cutscene effect is, it bugs me to no end.)

lodylody
11-05-2012, 11:06 PM
The more I think about it, the more I think that his sudden end was actually meant to happen. We've seen in Brotherhood that they can provide a dramatic, sad death that makes people sympathise.

I think that with this, they might've wanted to show us how "insignificant" his life was, one spark that could easily be stopped, like it was. It might also help to provide a sense of excitement, or want to know what Juno was going to do.

To me, Desmond's death was extremely underwhelming, but at the same time that feeling was overwhelming. "Wow, it's over, just like that..." Isn't that what we've all been saying? Everyone seems to be overwhelmed by how simply it happened. Over, just like that. I'm excited to see what happens next, and what is going to happen with Juno / Templars / Assassins.

Eve is confusing, but they won't leave us in the dark forever about it, and if they do, they'll probably indicate that we are right... so... *shrugs* We wait!

Apirka
11-05-2012, 11:20 PM
Well, I can't say I'm very excited for anything AC right now (unless it were to involve clay or Haytham), and I found it overwhelming in a rather negative way, which I don't think ia good thing to do for any game. I can't even say I'm particularly curious about what Juno is up to. I'll fully admit, for the most part I just have a cold and nothing better to do than hang out here and play the parts of the game I liked.

NumberSix1967
11-05-2012, 11:33 PM
That is a very ignorant response... In ACR it's mentioned that desmond is 'special' because of his genes/herritage, only 1 in a million (i think they said a million) of people on the planet have high concentrations of first civ DNA, He didn't have to be a descendant of altair.. it isn't ever stated in the games that to save the world he had to be a descendant of Altair... Desmond's ancestors were important figures in history, because of this it was easy for TWCB to communicate with them & hence, desmond. Desmond is the conversion of many important blood lines, which lead to him having a high concentration of first civ DNA, and being one of the very few in his time with this trait. It could have been any one with high amounts of first civ DNA, but why not just stick with desmond, he was born into the assassin's, he had ancestors which came into contact with the PoE (this allows the first civ to communicate with them)... It all makes sense..

As for the hole eve thing, my god people, the liberations ending pretty much tells us that they haven't given up on this idea...

Oh, so it was the ignorant Anakin Skywalker plot thread? I get it now. I love the game. I've changed my mind.

NumberSix1967
11-05-2012, 11:37 PM
I agree 100%. The ending just made me sit and there and think.. that's it? I like the concept, the idea was well thought out, the way they presented it though was shocking, it was rushed and just horrible. I mean, your son's about to die, so you just accept it and walk off? comeon ubisoft... To me it feels like they just don't care for desmond, which is what bothers me, because the only reason i follow this series, is for his story.. well i like the history part but his is far more interesting (mostly because of clay, god that guy is cool)
I just watched the liberations real ending, man.... "eve will save us from enslavement" or something... pretty much referencing what i'm saying in my OP... Corey may is a smart dude, I think they know where they are heading, we will just have to wait... this is killing me.... after i finished AC2... "man i have to wait another year?"!!?!??!.. when i finsihed ACB "I HAVE TO WAIT ANOTHER ****ING YEAR?!!??!?!!?!?!?" when i finished ACR "**** YOU ****ING **** **** **** **** I DONT WANT TO WAIT ANYMORE!!!!!!" when i finished AC3... " mother ****er!" haha :)

You're correct in saying it had all the right elements but was let down by the presentation. Given the game's general engine issues, it does seem as if it was kind of rushed out way before its time. Given a few months of development, many of us would be having much different conversations. I have a feeling the writers will have a bit more sway and say in the production time of the next game. Well, should the response to ACIII be negative in the main. It's all about the story, and how the game works within it that's made the series so excellently received. Hey, maybe most people love the game. Perhaps they do and if that's the case then they'll have no reason to change how they work. Can't argue with majority.

NumberSix1967
11-05-2012, 11:41 PM
Ah, I see. I've stayed away from interviews and all so I wouldn't be spoiled in any way. So they're just oddities. (Really wonder what the point of that cutscene effect is, it bugs me to no end.)

I wouldn't be surprised if they change tact with what they've said previously and go with the 'Desmond's Animus memories' angle given some of the negativity around the story in AC3. Plus, at the end of the game, there is that voice discussing corrupt memory hacks and pivots etc and supposedly, Liberation has some key conversations relating to a War off Generations. Expect more twists.

infamous_ezio
11-06-2012, 05:44 AM
yeah... sadly we need to wait... another year atleast, ohwell, black ops comes out in a few days.. YEAH BOIIIIII

UtilityTortoise
11-06-2012, 06:02 AM
For some reason, I really wanted Desmond's consciousness to be transferred into the animus (he did just touch a really powerful first Civ artifact after all) so he'll sort of be like the next 'Clay' for the next set of AC games... covertly helping those who would oppose Juno the same way Clay did for the Assassins.

The animus hacking pivots thing at the end gives me hope, but who knows.

pirate1802
11-06-2012, 06:05 AM
For some reason, I really wanted Desmond's consciousness to be transferred into the animus (he did just touch a really powerful first Civ artifact after all) so he'll sort of be like the next 'Clay' for the next set of AC games... covertly helping those who would oppose Juno the same way Clay did for the Assassins.

The animus hacking pivots thing at the end gives me hope, but who knows.

It may very possibly happen xD

UtilityTortoise
11-06-2012, 06:11 AM
It may very possibly happen xD

I think that'd be amazing if it did... I was really attached to Desmond so to know his sacrifice wasn't in vain somehow and we get to hear more about him in future games would be so cool. After all I kinda think ending up in an animus is like... the ultimate best end for an assassin.

pirate1802
11-06-2012, 06:30 AM
I think that'd be amazing if it did... I was really attached to Desmond so to know his sacrifice wasn't in vain somehow and we get to hear more about him in future games would be so cool. After all I kinda think ending up in an animus is like... the ultimate best end for an assassin.

Yeah mate, it would be amazing and I have a hunch they'll do it. But even if he doesn't.. his sacrifice was never in vein. Nor Altair's, Ezio's, Connors, Clay's or anyone else's. I mean think about it, were it not them, Desmond would have never got the message and never entered the Temple and save Earth. Yes it did have some consequences, but would a wasteland Earth with 99% people dead and Tyrant Assassins ruling over the remaining 1% be better than what we've got now? Desmond's sacrifice is in vein only if someone thinks wasteland Earth was better.

It sometimes peeves me that people miss the big picture so often :S

infamous_ezio
11-06-2012, 06:36 AM
Yeah mate, it would be amazing and I have a hunch they'll do it. But even if he doesn't.. his sacrifice was never in vein. Nor Altair's, Ezio's, Connors, Clay's or anyone else's. I mean think about it, were it not them, Desmond would have never got the message and never entered the Temple and save Earth. Yes it did have some consequences, but would a wasteland Earth with 99% people dead and Tyrant Assassins ruling over the remaining 1% be better than what we've got now? Desmond's sacrifice is in vein only if someone thinks wasteland Earth was better.

It sometimes peeves me that people miss the big picture so often :S

Agreed! the ending of connor's story goes hand in hand to desmond's ending... some people just can't understand that, if Desmond had of just saved the world casually, the purpose of connor's story wouldn't have made much sense..