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Soccerspeed914
10-23-2012, 11:44 PM
Ok, so I'm not asking in Assassin's Creed story, why the templars are the enemy. I am an avid Assassins Creed fan, have played all the games, and cannot wait for Assassins Creed III. However, I recently got into a debate as to why the Templars were initially chosen in the creation of the game to be the enemy of the Assassins. The person I was debating with said that Ubisoft chose the Templars to insult Christians since the Knights Templar have historically been recognized as Christian crusaders that wanted to protect those Christians traveling to Jerusalem. I tried to explain to him that Assassins Creed was made by multiple people of multiple cultures and beliefs so that it's not smiting the Christians. I also told him how there is hardly anything else known about the Templars, leaving so much room for creative storytelling. While he understands the secret society part, he wants to know why Ubisoft didn't just create their own secret society to be the enemy, or perhaps another historically relevant society that wasn't historically known for protecting Christians.

So in the end, why did Ubisoft choose the Templars to be the enemy in Assassins Creed and not some other society? Because it makes a good story? Or was there some other motive?

TheAquila
10-23-2012, 11:48 PM
Templars believe people need to be controlled. Assassin's believe in free will for all.

These conflict, making for allowing for an enemy to always be present no matter the circumstance, and a running theme of Order v. Chaos.

LightRey
10-23-2012, 11:56 PM
They chose the Templars and the Assassins because it helped them use history as a background. These two orders were at each other's throats during the crusades and both were very secretive. To this day little is known about them and both have left many unsolved mysteries. It's an obvious choice for a conspiracy-based story set in history, like Assassins Creed, and it's not the first game to make use of it.

As for why the Assassins fight the Templars, it's quite simple. The Templars value happiness, or rather, pleasure (not (just) physical pleasure, in fact not at all), while the Assassins value autonomy (freedom). Both orders want peace, but seek different means to achieve it, different states of it. The Templars want to create peace through order, through control. The Assassins want to allow humanity to find peace by itself.

rileypoole1234
10-23-2012, 11:57 PM
You're friend is completely wrong about Ubi wanting insult Christians. That's just stupid. I think the reason Ubi chose the Templars as enemies of the Assassin's is because of what you said, there is very little known about them. The games are based in fact, so it wouldn't be historically accurate to create their own society. That'd throw historical facts out the window. The Templars are a secret society. What they do isn't known. That's part of the intrigue of AC, we are seeing what really happened in the past, and what's really happening today. The Assassin's want world peace to come by itself, the Templars want world peace through control.


To be completely honest, I'm too tired to write more. Just tell your friend he's wrong about the whole insulting Christians thing.

rupok2
10-24-2012, 12:15 AM
The templars are atheists thats one of their core reasons for doing all the horrible stuff. They believe there is no afterline and thus the ends justifies the means. That means they will murder, manipulate, do horrendous things if in the end they can achieve world peace by controlling humans.

As for insulting christians thats just stupid. The templars in AC used the holy war as a diversion tactic, they acted like christians when they weren't. If your friend still doesn't get it I think he is just ignorant and wants to believe what he wants to believe. Some religious people tend to be like that butthurt about everything.

They were never portrayed as the bad guys. Its just we see things from the Assassin perspective. Assassins and Templars are both trying to achieve worldwide peace but there ideology to achieve that is different. Assassins believe that humans should be given freedom and that eventually that will lead to peace. While Templars believe that humans should be controlled because freedom is the reason there is no world peace.

I personally agree with Templars but don't agree with their methods.

shinyFezzan
10-24-2012, 12:16 AM
Templars want to rule the world.
This will make peace in their opinion.
The assassins think that everyone should have free-will and that will make peace.

They have the same goal but very different methods.

FinalJ1
10-24-2012, 12:17 AM
You're friend is completely wrong about Ubi wanting insult Christians. That's just stupid. I think the reason Ubi chose the Templars as enemies of the Assassin's is because of what you said, there is very little known about them. The games are based in fact, so it wouldn't be historically accurate to create their own society. That'd throw historical facts out the window. The Templars are a secret society. What they do isn't known. That's part of the intrigue of AC, we are seeing what really happened in the past, and what's really happening today. The Assassin's want world peace to come by itself, the Templars want world peace through control.


To be completely honest, I'm too tired to write more. Just tell your friend he's wrong about the whole insulting Christians thing.

Riley I hope your to tired to hold me up for laughing to hard. Op your friend sounds like he needs to get his head out of the bible and into a history book. Templars aka crusaders were known to take away religious freedom. This was even one of the under tones of AC: revelations.

Assassin_M
10-24-2012, 12:20 AM
He did not ask about why we were having a fist fight with the Pope ? I mean.. Surely he must`v.

Just show him the message at the beginning of the Load Screen. He is not anymore devout than those working on the game, which include Christians..
Honestly, AC makes everyone look bad.

GreatBeyonder
10-24-2012, 12:22 AM
The Templars are the bad guys because the first game was specifically about the Third Crusade and because they are the source of a bazillion conspiracy theories. They didn't make them bad guys because there was anything inherently evil about them, simply that they were a good way to open up the series to all kinds of conspiracy hijinx without having to invent a fictional group.

Assassins are atheist, Templars are atheist, and both predate religion itself in the ACverse. Religion is just flavor text for the Templars.


Having said all that, as a Catholic, I am a teensy bit annoyed seeing my faith be the root of all evil in human history...

Assassin_M
10-24-2012, 12:25 AM
The Templars are the bad guys because the first game was specifically about the Third Crusade and because they are the source of a bazillion conspiracy theories. They didn't make them bad guys because there was anything inherently evil about them, simply that they were a good way to open up the series to all kinds of conspiracy hijinx without having to invent a fictional group.

Assassins are atheist, Templars are atheist, and both predate religion itself in the ACverse. Religion is just flavor text for the Templars.


Having said all that, as a Catholic, I am a teensy bit annoyed seeing my faith be the root of all evil in human history...

Some people view "Religion" in general as the root of all evil. You should not be annoyed, just ignore it..or bomb yourself and be called a Terrorist..

Gespenst1246
10-24-2012, 12:27 AM
Im preatty sure the "Templars" having very little to do with the actual "Knights Templar" other than the fact that they were using them get what they wanted. (speaking within the context of the AC universe of course)

GreatBeyonder
10-24-2012, 12:38 AM
Im preatty sure the "Templars" having very little to do with the actual "Knights Templar" other than the fact that they were using them get what they wanted. (speaking within the context of the AC universe of course)

You're right. The group is based more around Rome (And the whacky tech there) than the Church itself. The Church is just a replacement for the Roman Empire.

kidhero99
10-24-2012, 01:26 AM
ok, so i'm not asking in assassin's creed story, why the templars are the enemy. I am an avid assassins creed fan, have played all the games, and cannot wait for assassins creed iii. However, i recently got into a debate as to why the templars were initially chosen in the creation of the game to be the enemy of the assassins. The person i was debating with said that ubisoft chose the templars to insult christians since the knights templar have historically been recognized as christian crusaders that wanted to protect those christians traveling to jerusalem. I tried to explain to him that assassins creed was made by multiple people of multiple cultures and beliefs so that it's not smiting the christians. I also told him how there is hardly anything else known about the templars, leaving so much room for creative storytelling. While he understands the secret society part, he wants to know why ubisoft didn't just create their own secret society to be the enemy, or perhaps another historically relevant society that wasn't historically known for protecting christians.

So in the end, why did ubisoft choose the templars to be the enemy in assassins creed and not some other society? Because it makes a good story? Or was there some other motive?wth?

projectpat06
10-24-2012, 01:35 AM
Hey, it's kind of similar to republicans vs democrats. Democrats want to control peoples' individual wealth through higher taxes and the whole obamacare plan so everyone can be happy in a sense. Republicans want less taxes and believe that people who actually work hard shouldn't have to pay for those who are sorry enough to not be able to afford healthcare and other amenities. Democrats believe the government should be heavily involved in business developments. REpublicans believe it's best to leave it to capitalism and the competitive nature of the market. Granted both sides want some kind of control or government intervention in people's lives. But like the Templars and Assassins, neither side is necessarily wrong in its approach to wanting to help the country.

I think we'll see that the templars aren;t so much known as the "enemy" or "evildoer" as they just another group striving to achieve the same thing with a different method.

lightlamp
10-24-2012, 01:37 AM
Hey, it's kind of similar to republicans vs democrats. Democrats want to control peoples' individual wealth through higher taxes and the whole obamacare plan so everyone can be happy in a sense. Republicans want less taxes and believe that people who actually work hard shouldn't have to pay for those who are sorry enough to not be able to afford healthcare and other amenities. Democrats believe the government should be heavily involved in business developments. REpublicans believe it's best to leave it to capitalism and the competitive nature of the market. Granted both sides want some kind of control or government intervention in people's lives. But like the Templars and Assassins, neither side is necessarily wrong in its approach to wanting to help the country.Umm...

shiroxkatsuya
10-24-2012, 02:32 AM
please never bring political debate into a gaming forum again....seriously. unless its in a specifically offtopic section..

scooper121s
10-25-2012, 10:32 PM
Templars can be done anything with it's all so vacant in history, although i would like to eventually like to see the stone cutters, is that right?, join with the rest of the templars, that would make a good game

De Filosoof
10-25-2012, 10:34 PM
Not this again......

De Filosoof
10-25-2012, 10:35 PM
Hey, it's kind of similar to republicans vs democrats. Democrats want to control peoples' individual wealth through higher taxes and the whole obamacare plan so everyone can be happy in a sense. Republicans want less taxes and believe that people who actually work hard shouldn't have to pay for those who are sorry enough to not be able to afford healthcare and other amenities. Democrats believe the government should be heavily involved in business developments. REpublicans believe it's best to leave it to capitalism and the competitive nature of the market. Granted both sides want some kind of control or government intervention in people's lives. But like the Templars and Assassins, neither side is necessarily wrong in its approach to wanting to help the country.

I think we'll see that the templars aren;t so much known as the "enemy" or "evildoer" as they just another group striving to achieve the same thing with a different method.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p5i8XJSmPrw

projectpat06
10-25-2012, 10:36 PM
please never bring political debate into a gaming forum again....seriously. unless its in a specifically offtopic section..

Probably wasn't my best choice in posts, but my point was that the templars can be viewed as the enemy even though they may actually be a decent organization striving to do good but by a different means. The Assassins may just have a biased view much like many republicans or democrats have a biased view of one another. I def don't want to start a debate here haha.

De Filosoof
10-25-2012, 11:03 PM
Probably wasn't my best choice in posts, but my point was that the templars can be viewed as the enemy even though they may actually be a decent organization striving to do good but by a different means. The Assassins may just have a biased view much like many republicans or democrats have a biased view of one another. I def don't want to start a debate here haha.

Indeed! There's nothing wrong with enslaving people.
When will you people learn!!!

projectpat06
10-25-2012, 11:19 PM
I wouldn't go as far as saying enslaving people. I feel like the templars believe more that in order to have peace and prosperity for everyone, a higher order must be in place to control things. People naturally will do what's best for themselves to improve their lives. Those same people can also be very charitable assisting others who may not be as fortunate but obviously not everyone will unless there is some kind of control. Either achieve happiness for everyone by control or allow people the freedom find happiness on their own which will always have those who don't survive. Believe it or not, Assassin's Creed is very political not just in terms of America but also in terms of governments from centuries ago. I find it very cool how the underlining themes and the story can relate to present day real life events not to mention the whole 2012 apocalypse quickly approaching.

De Filosoof
10-25-2012, 11:24 PM
I wouldn't go as far as saying enslaving people. I feel like the templars believe more that in order to have peace and prosperity for everyone, a higher order must be in place to control things. People naturally will do what's best for themselves to improve their lives. Those same people can also be very charitable assisting others who may not be as fortunate but obviously not everyone will unless there is some kind of control. Either achieve happiness for everyone by control or allow people the freedom find happiness on their own which will always have those who don't survive. Believe it or not, Assassin's Creed is very political not just in terms of America but also in terms of governments from centuries ago. I find it very cool how the underlining themes and the story can relate to present day real life events not to mention the whole 2012 apocalypse quickly approaching.

Exactly!
Enslave them and everything will be fine.






psst...People have to be informed/educated properly. That way people will see the truth. They'll start thinking on their own and will no longer be blinded. They will realize that they themselves are the leaders. That everyone is the leader.
It's part of the evolutionary(wow! Did you say evolution?! but god. Yeah...) process. There are some major powers in the world that want to keep the masses ignorant.
They want you to be just smart enough to do your work and just stupid enough to blind you from how badly you're getting ****ed by them and the system.
You have to remember. The system is built by the rich elite, for the rich elite.

Here, a sneak peek.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwlwL-o7XqI
.

projectpat06
10-26-2012, 12:01 AM
^^^Ha, yeah my monetary economics professor used to always say the federal reserve Act is one of the worst things congress has ever passed and we have paid the price since then. If we just allowed a free banking system, everything would be tenfolds better

De Filosoof
10-26-2012, 12:07 AM
^^^Ha, yeah my monetary economics professor used to always say the federal reserve Act is one of the worst things congress has ever passed and we have paid the price since then. If we just allowed a free banking system, everything would be tenfolds better

I'm glad you didn't call me a conspiracy buff and actually know about this stuff :).

OneintheHood
11-20-2012, 09:31 PM
Well get ready for another cliche response but they chose the templars as the enemy to warn us think about it the templars (abstergo) actually are doing this they are around still i would'nt be supprised if abstergo has control over ubisoft itsseld and ac3 was there way of warning us im trying to find the truth i just need one good lead

YusufAndEzio
11-20-2012, 09:46 PM
Templars believe people need to be controlled. Assassin's believe in free will for all.

These conflict, making for allowing for an enemy to always be present no matter the circumstance, and a running theme of Order v. Chaos.


TheAquila is totally correct...

TwoDents
11-20-2012, 10:16 PM
The templars are atheists thats one of their core reasons for doing all the horrible stuff. They believe there is no afterline and thus the ends justifies the means. That means they will murder, manipulate, do horrendous things if in the end they can achieve world peace by controlling humans.



You might want to work on your wording there. I am Atheist and I sure don't go around murdering, manipulating, and doing horrendous things. You're probably thinking of serial killers and politicians.

OT: LightRey and TheAquila have it spot on. Although it makes me question about AC4, since there may be a new enemy after seeing the ending. I wonder if they'll do the cliche thing and work together...

AssassinGame1
11-21-2012, 12:17 AM
That was exactly what I was wondering when I got to the point in the game where Haytham Kenway explains that Templars fight for peace
Templars should not be the enemy

A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
11-21-2012, 12:52 AM
Well get ready for another cliche response but they chose the templars as the enemy to warn us think about it the templars (abstergo) actually are doing this they are around still i would'nt be supprised if abstergo has control over ubisoft itsseld and ac3 was there way of warning us im trying to find the truth i just need one good lead

You're joking, right?

Assassin_M
11-21-2012, 12:56 AM
You're joking, right?
Hold On someone`s at my door..

Good day, Mr jameson

Maurice_Wijma
11-21-2012, 12:45 PM
After finishing AC3, and rethinking about the previous parts, there was a very thin line between the Assassins and Templars. They both have the same goal, and both think the way the other wants it is no good. So there might just be no good or evil in these games.

The best reason I can think of why it is an Assassin game, is because they are more working with action, and less with words. Also they have a creed. That makes naming the games simple. What would a Templar game be called? "Templar" or "The guid of the Father of understanding"? Those both won't work.

SPOILER ON
The only moment were it worked that we can play a Templar, is when an Assassin is gone to the other side, like Haytam Kenway. He still uses the same gameplay, but he has a different cause. Very much people on this forum liked him better. And it is pretty weird to see him working for the Templars, a thing Ubi had done pretty well. It shows how easy it is to get a simular bond with a Templar as with an Assassin.
SPOILER OFF

blacklimoband
11-21-2012, 01:03 PM
Hold On someone`s at my door..

Good day, Mr jameson

Has anyone seen M today?

pirate1802
11-21-2012, 01:41 PM
A question: The "Father of Understanding" Templars revere, who is he? An actual historical figure or just a metaphorical figurehead?

LightRey
11-21-2012, 02:47 PM
A question: The "Father of Understanding" Templars revere, who is he? An actual historical figure or just a metaphorical figurehead?
It's possible it's referring to Cain, who supposedly was the first Templar, but I've also seen someone suggest it's metaphorical, referring not to a person, but to understanding itself as a symbolic father.

soulscythe80
11-21-2012, 03:04 PM
Ok, so I'm not asking in Assassin's Creed story, why the templars are the enemy. I am an avid Assassins Creed fan, have played all the games, and cannot wait for Assassins Creed III. However, I recently got into a debate as to why the Templars were initially chosen in the creation of the game to be the enemy of the Assassins. The person I was debating with said that Ubisoft chose the Templars to insult Christians since the Knights Templar have historically been recognized as Christian crusaders that wanted to protect those Christians traveling to Jerusalem. I tried to explain to him that Assassins Creed was made by multiple people of multiple cultures and beliefs so that it's not smiting the Christians. I also told him how there is hardly anything else known about the Templars, leaving so much room for creative storytelling. While he understands the secret society part, he wants to know why Ubisoft didn't just create their own secret society to be the enemy, or perhaps another historically relevant society that wasn't historically known for protecting Christians.

So in the end, why did Ubisoft choose the Templars to be the enemy in Assassins Creed and not some other society? Because it makes a good story? Or was there some other motive?
I have been wondering about this for a while. I am not sure if the guy you were debating against read any of the articles on Assassin's creed wiki and ready any of the comic books. I don't think that when Ubisoft choose who the enemy is, it was not to insult Christians. After, reading the history of the templar it was founded by Cain, who lived way before christianity was developed. So I think the templar is a secret order, that existed separate from religion. I was wonder about this. I think they just choose the templars, because they just choose them. Spoiler: The purpose that each side was fighting for, the templars for control and the assassins for freedom. Was it their purpose all along or was it Juno pulling the strings all along through out the entire series?

soulscythe80
11-21-2012, 07:40 PM
But I do give the templars credit for designing the animus, which is a very awesome device.

montagemik
11-21-2012, 08:11 PM
It's all about Global control & those with the resources neccessary imposing their views / control system on those with differing values or without the ability to prevent it.

Like it or not - Religion was one of the first (supposedly civilised) methods of control - Hence the legal 'we aren't prejudice line' at the beginning of every AC game .
Romans tried to conquer the world , then found religion to be an easier method - & Many will happily die for their beliefs - Assassin's & Templars alike.

The whole saga is about controlling the human race through true or false belief in one thing or another - right up to the end. (if you follow the subtleties shown throughout the saga )

montagemik
11-21-2012, 08:19 PM
But I do give the templars credit for designing the animus, which is a very awesome device.

Actually - THEY didn't , :o

soulscythe80
11-21-2012, 08:29 PM
Actually - THEY didn't , :o I know that the first civilization's technology was what abstergo based it on to perfect their own design of the animus. But it was the templars, who futher developed and it and created the competition against other templars in the multiplayer. I am just not sure what the multiplayer will be like in the next assassin's creed game, since (spolier) abstergo was breached by Desmond who wanted to rescue his father and used the apple to take control of one of the security guard to kill Warren.

scooper121s
11-21-2012, 09:06 PM
A question: The "Father of Understanding" Templars revere, who is he? An actual historical figure or just a metaphorical figurehead?

My belief is that he is their embodiment of their supposed superiority; and greater understanding of the world

Torvaldesq
11-21-2012, 09:29 PM
I think it's worth mentioning that in the world of Assassin's Creed, the Catholic church has also been a force for good. Don't forget that they took the historical event of the disbanding and destruction of the Knights Templar in the early 14th century in real history and turned it in the game into an event influenced and directed by the Assassins. (This is information learned from the Abstergo filed unlocked as part of your reward in the multiplayer of AC Revelations). Keep in mind that in the real world, this event is one that actually made the Catholic Church look quite bad, and was accomplished because the king of France was deeply in dept to the Templars and took advantage of his influence with the Pope to destroy the order. Lots of torture and murder was involved.

But in the world of Assassins Creed, the event is transformed into a triumph for the good guys. The Templars say that the Assassin's had turned what was the sword of the Templars (the Chuch) against them, and come to the conclusion that they need to be a secret order afterwards rather than a public one. Sure, there's a Templar pope later, but he's not known to be a Templar to the cardinals who elected him. And at the end of the Borgia story, Cesare is placed under arrest by the new pope (he then escapes, but still, it shows that the by the end of AC: Brotherhood you've freed the Church from the Templar's control again).