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Dav_1
02-18-2004, 10:18 PM
The Bf 109E4/N was the E4 with the more powerful DB 601N engine right?

Was this model actually used to a reasonable degree?

At what time? I'm thinking between the BOB era E3 and E4s and the introduction of the Fmodel.

I'm trying to get an idea of how many different Emil models were produced.

Dav_1
02-18-2004, 10:18 PM
The Bf 109E4/N was the E4 with the more powerful DB 601N engine right?

Was this model actually used to a reasonable degree?

At what time? I'm thinking between the BOB era E3 and E4s and the introduction of the Fmodel.

I'm trying to get an idea of how many different Emil models were produced.

JG77_Tintin
02-19-2004, 04:08 AM
Yes you are correct, the N is uprated version of the DB601A of earlier Emil's. The new engine had 15% higher compression rate, 1200Hp at takeoff and 50Hp more at altitude. The pistons were flattened, as opposed to the concave ones in the DB601A engine. Don't exactly know how many were built, as the latter mass produced Emil, the Bf 109E7 was using both versions of the engine. Suspect the N's were mainly used in North Africa. Overall, there were 15 different versions of the Emil. Were the E1, E2, E3, E3B, E4, E4 trop, E4B, E4N, E5, E6N, E7, E7 trop, E7B, E8 & E9. The first Freidriech's (F series) started reaching the front in Autumn, 1940. 133 F0 & F1 series first went the units in France, then F's went elsewhere. These units were JG1, JG2, JG3, JG26, JG51, JG52, JG54 & JG5. Note that the F0 & F1 had the DB601N and a MG FF in the nose. Also had some structural problems in the tail. The new, more powerful DB601E first appeared in the F4. F2 you know about and there is debate as to whether the F3 was ever built. Hope this sheds some light on your query.

Franzen
02-19-2004, 08:00 AM
Can one distinguish the difference between the E3 and the E4 visually?

Fritz Franzen

3.JG51_Stecher
02-19-2004, 09:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Franzen:
Can one distinguish the difference between the E3 and the E4 visually?

Fritz Franzen<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the only visual distinction is the canopy. The E-3 had the rounded top and the E-4 had the squared top. There were a few other minor things, but that's all you could tell by just looking at it.

By the way, other than the new engine and spinner cap, was there any difference between the E-4 and E-7?

http://flygirl.dhs.org:8080/jg51/Alpine-Thunder.jpg


3./Jagdgeschwader 51
3./JG51_Stecher
www.jg51.com (http://www.jg51.com)

Franzen
02-19-2004, 10:54 AM
Actually the E3 came with both types of conopyies. I've seen pics and have some models with choices.

Fritz Franzen

SUPERAEREO
02-19-2004, 11:09 AM
E-7 could carry a drop tank as standard.

The new square canopy of the E-4 wasoften retro-fitted to earlier E-3's and E-1's.

E-2 and E-6 never entered production.

S!

mortoma
02-19-2004, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JG77_Tintin:
Yes you are correct, the N is uprated version of the DB601A of earlier Emil's. The new engine had 15% higher compression rate, 1200Hp at takeoff and 50Hp more at altitude. The pistons were flattened, as opposed to the concave ones in the DB601A engine. Don't exactly know how many were built, as the latter mass produced Emil, the Bf 109E7 was using both versions of the engine. Suspect the N's were mainly used in North Africa. Overall, there were 15 different versions of the Emil. Were the E1, E2, E3, E3B, E4, E4 trop, E4B, E4N, E5, E6N, E7, E7 trop, E7B, E8 & E9. The first Freidriech's (F series) started reaching the front in Autumn, 1940. 133 F0 & F1 series first went the units in France, then F's went elsewhere. These units were JG1, JG2, JG3, JG26, JG51, JG52, JG54 & JG5. Note that the F0 & F1 had the DB601N and a MG FF in the nose. Also had some structural problems in the tail. The new, more powerful DB601E first appeared in the F4. F2 you know about and there is debate as to whether the F3 was ever built. Hope this sheds some light on your query.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You mentioned all the models of the E series but I saw no E-7Z model. Does that mean the E-7Z in FB was never produced??

Dav_1
02-19-2004, 10:24 PM
I know the 109E4/N was used on the western front because I've seen a picture of Adolf Galland's personal E-4/N. Was it widely used on the western front though, and when? late 1940 i'm guessing?

Thanks for all the feedback so far
and thanks to all those that posted in my cockpit thread, dont want to dig up 2 threads

JG77_Tintin
02-20-2004, 05:45 AM
To Mortoma,
Yeah I didn't mention it. In most texts I read about it, it's always chalked up as an "nitrous oxide experiment" and not as a seperate version. Much like the E-7/U2 with the 5mm armour plates protecting the engine and radiator. Was the last E produced. Was a bit suprised when I first saw the E-7Z in IL2 and not a E-4N or F-4B, but I'm not complaining. I stand corrected. Many variations and "one offs" for Bf109's. For instance, Adolf Galand (when still at JG26) had two personal Bf 109F-2's. One had a 13mm MG131 in the cowling, with the bulge streamlined over. The other, while retaining the usual F-2 armament, had an extra 20mm MG FF in each wing of the machine. Unlike Molders, he didn't think the F had enough firepower.

HansKnappstick
02-20-2004, 06:54 AM
This must be a kind of orgy. Messerschmitt Bf 109 E4B. How many indices does one need till we reach to the level of a single airplane? We can use the serial number then...

Or how about

Bf 109 L12 A3/4 Ausf. C-15b/IIIa R-15(1946/c)

Dav_1
02-20-2004, 10:36 AM
bump

lesio109
02-20-2004, 11:21 AM
About F-3 model...it was built, production started in October 1940 in Regensburg and probably in WNF factory Wienna. As it was worst of all F models, all manufatured ones (15 of them) were prolly reconstructed for other versions.

Galland's famous 5 barelled F-2 was really a different modell actually, F-6, which, as well as F-5 had two MG FF/M's in wings...the only difference between those two was main cannon:
F-5 had MG FF/M (totaling 3xMG FF/M's plus two guns), while F-6 had (since it was built over F-2, the "lighter" variant) central MG 151/15 cannon (it was most probably replaced with a MG 151/20 in a summer of 1941, thus F-6/U variant was created)...
After extended tests (at facility and national), F-6/U, along with a F-2/U1 (two MG131's + MG 151/15) were sent to Stab/JG26 for front tests (where Galland was complaining about weak armament on F-2 )...

That's about "personal" Galland's machines...

Dav_1
02-20-2004, 11:54 AM
Did the Bf 109E4/N have the aerodynamically refined spinner cap? I can't find anything on this model lol!

I've also been wondering, why did so many emils have the prop spinner with the hole in it designed for the cannon? All efs had them and none of them had the cannon? did they produce too many.

MandMs
02-20-2004, 12:09 PM
Galland's F-6/U was a fantasy designation born at the unit level. It was an F-2, WkN 6750, fitted with 2 more MG FF/M cannons.

There was only 1 F-5 built at WNF.

source: Messerschmitt Bf109F,G,K Prien and Rodieke.



I eat the red ones last.

lesio109
02-20-2004, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MandMs:
Galland's F-6/U was a fantasy designation born at the unit level. It was an F-2, WkN 6750, fitted with 2 more MG FF/M cannons.

There was only 1 F-5 built at WNF.

source: _Messerschmitt Bf109F,G,K_ Prien and Rodieke.



I eat the red ones last.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong... You seem to have very old, tales-told info (btw. is it American book? Which year?).

Me 109 historians do know, that most ppl think that this F-6 was really F-2 modded by JG26 ground crew...which is not true of course (there are at least 3 (three) proofs, independent of each other documents where F-5 and F-6 play main role: letter from Regensburg to WNF asking about adavances with F-5, request document from RLM about F-6 and a report by Galland about a victory on F-6/U). Besides, mounting cannons or strenghtening armament wasn't such an easy task, especially on F series (i can describe modifications needed, but don't have time right now).
Info U got, comes from 70's when thesis about JG26's ground modifications was created, since historians then didn't have sufficient info about F prototypes with strenghtened armament, and knowledge about any mods was much poorer.

MandMs
02-20-2004, 01:06 PM
No, it is originally a German book published 1993. Translated from German by David Johnston.

Butch2k can elaberate on the a/c with authority as he is writting a book on the 109. This should be the 109 'bible' when it is published. (hopefully soon)



I eat the red ones last.

lesio109
02-20-2004, 01:11 PM
Thanks for answer.

I think I heard about that book...some infos there don't seem to match RL (it's not my opinion only).
I'm surely looking forward to see this book U mentioned (by Butch2k).

Greetz

MandMs
02-20-2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lesio109:
Thanks for answer.

I think I heard about that book...some infos there don't seem to match RL (it's not my opinion only).
I'm surely looking forward to see this book U mentioned (by Butch2k).

Greetz<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, there is some errors.http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



I eat the red ones last.

Dav_1
02-20-2004, 10:21 PM
one more bump