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View Full Version : Oleg, I hope you speeded up the trim in the patch



XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:01 PM
Slowing down the trim only increased the gap between the have's and the have not's.

There is so much cheating going on now that trim is slow it isn't even funny!

Please speed up the trim so everybody can use it with ease again, instead of just those who use the RBJ ShiftT.

Thank you.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:01 PM
Slowing down the trim only increased the gap between the have's and the have not's.

There is so much cheating going on now that trim is slow it isn't even funny!

Please speed up the trim so everybody can use it with ease again, instead of just those who use the RBJ ShiftT.

Thank you.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:05 PM
Weird.....

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:10 PM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- Slowing down the trim only increased the gap between
- the have's and the have not's.
-

--

Slowing down the trim did what? If you were to slow the trim ability to a standard, how does it increase a gap between a have and a have not -- as you suggested? I'd say, quite the opposite...it has made the playing-field more even.

Are you upset that your slider isn't being used to it's maximum potential? Do you have that "not so fresh" feeling?

--
Surgeon General

Executive Officer 56th Fighter Group
61st Fighter Squadron
Zemke's Wolfpack
CAVE TONITRUM

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 04:45 PM
What I want too know is why is the trim differant in the

109E7B vs the pitch in the k4/g6as and so on ????


If you dont belive me go try it yourself

also the pp for the e7b this seems more realistic than the pp for the k4's and so on ??? WHAT GIVES ???


can I get a witness !!!!

<center><FONT COLOR="white">ӚFJ-M œ R D ˜ ӡ[/i]</font>

<center> http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_109_1059752328.jpg </center>

<center><FONT COLOR="black">
I am He who lives, and was dead
and behold
I am alive forevermore.
I am the Alpha and the Omega
the Begining and the End.[/i]</font>

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 05:20 PM
FG56th-S.G. wrote:
- Slowing down the trim did what? If you were to slow
- the trim ability to a standard, how does it increase
- a gap between a have and a have not -- as you
- suggested? I'd say, quite the opposite...it has
- made the playing-field more even.


No. Before, with fast trim, anyone with a slider could just go assign it and use it.

Now, only those who apply the RBJ ShiftT can have maximum trim whenever they want.

(you can still turn as hard with trim in FB as you could with IL2... just slowing down the trim movement speed was a poor solution)


<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 05:35 PM
Ray? AFAIK you own a programable HOTAS of some sort? Why don't you use the software for it and make an axis trim statement? It's like moving the stick but only with the buttons or rotaries. It trims the x or y axis to any value which lies within the range of the sticks motion. That would also slvoe the problem of the response delay in the current trim but it would also enable trim on all the planes which never had a trim or only on one axis (I-16, BF.109).

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

"God Song" by Bad Religion

http://www.rocket-fuel.com/news/images/bad_religion.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 05:49 PM
The great thing about trim (in IL2 or FB) is that it enables you to turn harder at speeds higher than about 300km/h than if you only used neutral (or none) trim. (nothing has changed from IL2 to FB in this regard)

So no, there is nothing you can do to turn better in a plane that didn't have trim (ex I16) The only thing you can do with those planes is make it so your default stick position is different. It won't affect turn rate though.

What I am talking about is using trim to turn harder. Since trim is not a sepeate control surface in this game, but rather just an elevator position, it is possible to fly level and hands free, yet have your trim pulled almost all the way back, ready to pounce in high speed manuevers and deflection shots (RBJ ShiftT)

People who don't use the RBJ shift, they will have to be pressing way forward on the stick to fly level with near max trim, or settle for trimming forward to fly level and having to wait 13 seconds for max trim.

So as you can see, slowing down trim was a poor solution. And now the gap between the haves and the have nots is greater than ever.

Here's to Oleg speeding up the trim to get rid of this nonsense, and at the same time giving everybody their fine trim control back.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

Message Edited on 08/08/0312:50PM by RayBanJockey

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 06:02 PM
Right but with such an axis trim statemnent, you could also trim your plane for hands off flying and you wouldn't have any speed delay like we have right now. But such an axis trim statement wouldn't let you turn harder as the trim in IL2 and FB does to some extend but without suffering structural damage which would happen in RL and which would be nice ot have in here as well. I don't use this way of triming in IL2/FB cause that would enable the aileron trim on all German planes, both trims for the I-16 and so on which would suck IMO.

I use it in Strike Fighters though due to a complete lack of a trim.

Btw, with the HOTAS software, you can even program the number of inputs. For example, you know that you need 5 button inputs (or maybe 1cm of motion on the rotaries, to turn better or ride a stall while flying with full throttle. You can then make a statement where one button press does the same and simulates 5 trim button inputs or the according rotary motion. And with another press you put eveything back to neutral. It's only for the lazy people though and feels more like a FlybyWire plane/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif . Many guys like it though.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

"God Song" by Bad Religion

http://www.rocket-fuel.com/news/images/bad_religion.gif

ZG77_Nagual
08-08-2003, 06:53 PM
Trim does not have the same effect in the patch.

http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:01 PM
The patched changed the trim? How?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

"God Song" by Bad Religion

http://www.rocket-fuel.com/news/images/bad_religion.gif

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:16 PM
How I pray that Oleg changed the code, so trim won't give you bat turns anymore.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 07:18 PM
slightly faster,slower than il2 v1.2 but faster than FB 1.0

ZG77_Nagual
08-08-2003, 08:25 PM
Trim is no longer needed on the planes that needed it most.
On the planes that don't need it at all it is very useful.
Except on the 8th of the month - when using it causes a hotdog with one thin line of mustard to appear horizontally 100 meters in front of your aircraft.


http://pws.chartermi.net/~cmorey/pics/p47janes.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 08:53 PM
;D.

<hr>
<table border="0" width="100%"><tr><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1"> and did those feet in ancient times
trod america's pastures of green?
and did that <font color="#FF0000">anthropocentric</font> god <font color="#FF0000">wane</font>
with their thoughts and beliefs all unseen?
I don't think so,
he's up there with the others lying low,
<font color="#FF0000">vying</font> with those who you've traded
your life to bless your soul,
and have they told you how to think,</font></font></td><td width="50%"><font size=2><font size="-1">
cleansed your mind of <font color="#FF0000">sepsis</font> and autonomy?
or have you escaped scrutiny,
and <font color="#FF0000">regaled</font> yourself with <font color="#FF0000">depravity</font>?
now we all see, "religion is just synthetic
<font color="#FF0000">frippery</font>, unnecessary in our expanding
global culture efficiency"
and don't you fear this impasse
we have built to our future?
ever so near,
and oh so <font color="#FF0000">austere</font> </font></font></td></tr></table>

"God Song" by Bad Religion

http://thebrpage.tierranet.com/pix/Greg/graffin2_sm.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 10:10 PM
Well, here's to SOME change for the better, because the way trim is now in FB ... it is borked worse than before in IL2.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 10:42 PM
Who needs trim anyways /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Regards,
VFC*Crazyivan
http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/ivan-reaper.gif

"No matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down." Ivan Kozhedub

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:18 PM
The best thing Oleg could do for everybody is fix the code so trim won't cause bat turns. Then speed it up to where it was in IL2.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-08-2003, 11:21 PM
I would rather have fast trim and not be able to turn better, than have slow trim and be able to do bat turns.

As far as slow trim and not being able to do bat turns...don't even go there.

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:10 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- There is so much cheating going on now that trim is
- slow it isn't even funny!

What cheating?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:13 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- The great thing about trim (in IL2 or FB) is that it
- enables you to turn harder at speeds higher than
- about 300km/h than if you only used neutral (or
- none) trim. (nothing has changed from IL2 to FB in
- this regard)

Great in what sense? Using trim like that isn't
particularly historically accurate. It's gaming the
game, which is a bit pathetic, really. It's like
spawn point camping in FPS games.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:14 AM
BuzzU wrote:
- The best thing Oleg could do for everybody is ...

Slap RBJ round the head repeatedly with a kipper
until he shuts up about trim?

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 12:16 AM
RayBanJockey wrote:
- I would rather have fast trim and not be able to
- turn better, than have slow trim and be able to do
- bat turns.

Amen. But remember, RBJ - noone makes you use
the trim to do bat turns, just you. You can
resist the temptation. Be strong. Go to
Trimmers Anonymous for their 12 step programme.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 04:56 AM
Using trim like that isn't
particularly historically accurate

Plz get your facts straight before you post people.

The purpose of trim is to change the balance of the elevators. This in turn reduces the force required to move the stick in the direction in which the surface was trimmed. This means that, at an equal speed, a plane that is trimmed tail heavy will require less force on the part of the pilot to make it rate the nose. This means that a plane trimmed tail heavy, with equal stick force exerted by the pilot will rate the nose faster.

This is exactly how it works in FB. The trim does not increase the authority of the elevator, nor should it. The pivot limits are the same with or without trim changes. Like real life, the elevator trim simply changes the balance of the elavator, making it easier to rotate it in one direction, and harder to move it in the other.

An example of this being used historically is dive bombing, where a pilot would trim tail heavy to cause the aircraft to pull out of a dive automatically when forward stick force was removed, to avoid losing control due to compression. Another use for fighter pilots, including some notable aces, who prefered to fly trimmed tail heavy to allow them to achieve higher load factors at high speeds, or simply to make the pitch control more responsive with less effort, the drawback being that forward pressure was needed to keep the plane level.

If a person wanted to do a 10G turn at 700km/h with trim IRL, they very well could. Of course you have never heard accounts of this for good reasons; no one would be that stupid. They might perpetually black out, or may damage the airframe, neither of these things you have to worry about in FB. It was normally used simply to reduce stick force in high speed manuevers.

So although the visual operation of the trim may not be correct for some planes (trim tabs don't move), and the physical effects are different, the effect on aircraft handling of changing the trim is in fact correct. Its how it works in a Cessna, and how it works in a 109.

The only thing that was unrealistic in IL-2 was the fact that you could move the trim wheel faster than was humanly possible. Although the rate is probably not perfectly accurate for all of the planes (it would also differ depending on pilot and situation), the rate of trim change is more plausable now (making a guess based on trim in commercial planes), and can no longer be used to perform any unrealistic manuevers.

As far as the trim needing to be sped up, perhaps you should find a Bf109 or La5 cockpit and see how fast you can turn the knob, because otherwise you'll never know.

<div align=center>http://www.members.shaw.ca/fennec/plane.jpg </div><font size=-9>


Message Edited on 08/08/0310:03PM by StG77_Fennec

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 05:40 AM
StG77_Fennec

I'd like to see some proof that an 109 can pull a 10g turn at 700km/h by using trim.

Da Buzz
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------47|FC=-
<center>
"No Guts No Glory"
<center>
http://www.fighter-collection.com/p-47d/img/jug.jpg

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:23 AM
trim and wwii, I had the lucky opportunity to speak Colonel Gail Halverson at the aviation exhibit at rockefeller center today, I asked him about trim he told me that trim didnt make the aircraft turn better it just eased stick pressure. He also told me he flew with one hand on the trottle the other on the stick most of the time.

Nothing but fs2004 advertising there too nothing about forgotten battles. I never knew ms donates so much to aviaiton development




http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:54 AM
StG77_Fennec wrote:
- The only thing that was unrealistic in IL-2 was the
- fact that you could move the trim wheel faster than
- was humanly possible....
- the rate of trim change is more plausable now
- and can no longer be used to perform any unrealistic
- manuevers.


Haha! You can still use trim in FB to turn as hard as you could in day 1 of IL2. This is fact. Nowadays, you just have to apply the RBJ ShiftT in order to fly level, and hands free, yet still be at near max tirm (in order to do the bat-turns at will)

So they slowed the trim down but there are ways around that.

Back to square 1, and this time I sure hope Oleg fixes it right.

Applying the RBJ ShiftT is not one of my favorite pastimes, but an ace has to do what an ace has to do..

<img src=http://lafayettefederation.com/screenshots/repository/turo/tn-Numbaone.jpg>
"The Force is strong with this one." -What an ace said of RayBanJockey during a fight when he was still a newbie.
<a href=http://www.theinformationminister.com/press.php?ID=612109283>news update</a>

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 06:57 AM
Reducing control pressures allows the pilot to pull back more on the stick.


Time to hear from Bud Anderson again.
An excerpt from here: http://www.cebudanderson.com/ch1.htm

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat.

XyZspineZyX
08-09-2003, 07:48 AM
Not more just makes it easier and less tiresome


http://mysite.verizon.net/vze4jz7i/ls.gif

Good dogfighters bring ammo home, Great ones don't. (c) Leadspitter

Tully__
08-09-2003, 10:25 AM
You've had a firm answer to this RBJ, don't raise it again. If it's changed in the patch you can be pleased, just keep it to yourself /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif



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Message Edited on 08/09/0307:28PM by Tully__