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jamgamerforever
10-06-2012, 03:39 AM
Title. The goal of the Templar Order is to create the New World Order. A “perfect” world where humans don’t kill each other.

Why is it then that they keep inventing weapons and other technologies? Surely that's counterproductive.

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 03:40 AM
The Assassins ?

deskp
10-06-2012, 03:47 AM
Also.. they don't invent, they discover.

jamgamerforever
10-06-2012, 03:48 AM
Well, yes, but what about "general technology". For instance, Pope Sylvester II (a Templar) brought the abacus back to Europe. How would this benefit the Templars?

In modern times, Abstergo continues to invent - discover from TWCB - new technology. How does this benefit the Templars?

Surely they'd want the general populace ignorant, better to believe the Templars' "truths".

Evenesque
10-06-2012, 03:50 AM
For a house to be built in the forest, the overgrowth must first be cleared.

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 03:50 AM
Well, yes, but what about "general technology". For instance, Pope Sylvester II (a Templar) brought the abacus back to Europe. How would this benefit the Templars?

In modern times, Abstergo continues to invent - discover from TWCB - new technology. How does this benefit the Templars?

Surely they'd want the general populace ignorant, better to believe the Templars' "truths".

They invent to suit THEM and they release it to people so they can maintain control over the Populace..

before, they used the church, but it did not work out later, so They switched over to Science..

jamgamerforever
10-06-2012, 04:06 AM
They invent to suit THEM and they release it to people so they can maintain control over the Populace..

before, they used the church, but it did not work out later, so They switched over to Science..

But using the Sylvester II example again. He invented/brought back a fair few important educational devices - none of which would control the populace. On top of this, the Church, and the public, resented him for being a clear man of science in the Papacy.

How does THAT benefit the Templar ideology?

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 04:11 AM
But using the Sylvester II example again. He invented/brought back a fair few important educational devices - none of which would control the populace. On top of this, the Church, and the public, resented him for being a clear man of science in the Papacy.

How does THAT benefit the Templar ideology?
Copernicus was a Templar, but had a contract on his head by the Templars, because of his discoveries. At that Time the Templars wanted the people to believe ONLY in the Church, but we later find out that the Modern Templars looked at the renaissance as a dark time for the Order and later Embraced Science and Knowledge..

jamgamerforever
10-06-2012, 04:15 AM
Copernicus was a Templar, but had a contract on his head by the Templars, because of his discoveries. At that Time the Templars wanted the people to believe ONLY in the Church, but we later find out that the Modern Templars looked at the renaissance as a dark time for the Order and later Embraced Science and Knowledge..

Right. So the Templars actually want mankind to be advanced as possible? This "New World Order" consists of an extremely advanced Human Race guided by the Templars?

So when the Templars in AC1 made a plan to destroy all knowledge (books, writings etc.), was that also a part of the Dark Times of the Order? Because this and Sylvester II were 4-5 centuries before the Renaissance.

Thanks for replying. Just trying to get my head around it.

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 04:18 AM
Right. So the Templars actually want mankind to be advanced as possible? This "New World Order" consists of an extremely advanced Human Race guided by the Templars?

So when the Templars in AC1 made a plan to destroy all knowledge (books, writings etc.), was that also a part of the Dark Times of the Order? Because this and Sylvester II were 4-5 centuries before the Renaissance.

Thanks for replying. Just trying to get my head around it.

I understand and Yes..

They wish for the advancement of Humanity, but they still hide things, like the presence of TWCB, from the Public, because they dont want questions or someone searching about TWCB, finding Info, Finding POEs and then raising awareness..

So Yes, They want Advancement and Knowledge, but they hide things that they deem Risky for the Populace to know..

Also, You`re welcome:)

jamgamerforever
10-06-2012, 04:23 AM
I understand and Yes..

They wish for the advancement of Humanity, but they still hide things, like the presence of TWCB, from the Public, because they dont want questions or someone searching about TWCB, finding Info, Finding POEs and then raising awareness..

So Yes, They want Advancement and Knowledge, but they hide things that they deem Risky for the Populace to know..

Also, You`re welcome:)

So they only reveal what they decide the population is ready for, whereas the Assassins would reveal things as soon as humanity discovered it. Okay, I get it now.

That's why sometimes they clearly "discover" things (likely discovered decades/centuries beforehand), and other times they silence scientists.

Again, thanks. It just seemed contradictory at first. I can see now that it isn't.

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 04:24 AM
So they only reveal what they decide the population is ready for, whereas the Assassins would reveal things as soon as humanity discovered it. Okay, I get it now.

That's why sometimes they clearly "discover" things (likely discovered decades/centuries beforehand), and other times they silence scientists.

Again, thanks. It just seemed contradictory at first. I can see now that it isn't.
You`re Welcome, friend..

Glad I could help:D

Calvarok
10-06-2012, 04:44 AM
I know the issue has been cleared up, but the important thing to remember is that while the templars want humanity under control, they don't want them under control and stagnating. They want to build an everlasting, ever-improving civilization.

jamgamerforever
10-06-2012, 05:39 AM
I know the issue has been cleared up, but the important thing to remember is that while the templars want humanity under control, they don't want them under control and stagnating. They want to build an everlasting, ever-improving civilization.

Yeah. The Templars want everybody to be 100% productive.

I have a final question though. What about Jubair? In AC1, he tries to burn all writings, and rid Damascus of all knowledge. Was he a misguided Templar? Or did he just intend to destroy all memories of religion, then bring writing back.

Calvarok
10-06-2012, 09:44 AM
I think Jubair was trying to get rid of writings that fostered division and prejudice.

projectpat06
10-06-2012, 09:52 AM
Knowledge is power and when ignorance is bliss, people are easier to control. Hey, sounds like the American Government.

Calvarok
10-06-2012, 09:56 AM
Except the american government still tries to allow people a large degree of freedom.

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 09:58 AM
Except the american government still tries to allow people a large degree of freedom.
SOME degree of freedom..

It has its own perception of Freedom. Making people THINK they`re free..

Just like the Templars are using Science.. Can ANYONE question science ? Does anyone ? No.. That is Control

A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
10-06-2012, 10:07 AM
SOME degree of freedom..

It has its own perception of Freedom. Making people THINK they`re free..

Just like the Templars are using Science.. Can ANYONE question science ? Does anyone ? No.. That is Control

Wouldn't expect someone from Cairo to understand just how much freedom Americans have...

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 10:08 AM
Wouldn't expect someone from Cairo to understand just how much freedom Americans have...
Oh Hey, Army man..

You know ? I was kinda waiting for this, ever since your rant about terrorists... But I wont do it here.. How about a PM ??

projectpat06
10-06-2012, 10:09 AM
Thinking anyone is truly free is false. "We are all bound by some sort of law, religion or both. Even if we do not abide by either, we are still not free from death. Justice comes for us all." -yours truly, P. Johnson

but in all seriousness, the point to what I wrote before was that the American Government is very much like the Templars in the aspect of withholding information and knowledge from the public so that they can ultimately benefit and stay on top. Same goes with it's control of many aspects with the rest of the world. The biggest fear anyone with power has is losing it.

projectpat06
10-06-2012, 10:12 AM
Wouldn't expect someone from Cairo to understand just how much freedom Americans have...

Well considering he goes to school in the states, I would think you should rethink your comment before making a fool of yourself again.


EDIT: And BOOM goes the dynamite

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 10:13 AM
Well considering he goes to school in the states, I would think you should rethink your comment before making a fool of yourself again.
Nah leave him, mate...

I really want to listen to his rants.. They amuse me.. Give him the "freedom" to express...

EDIT: Awww see ? You scared him off:(

When you make a Stupid, Idiotic and pathetic post, be ready to back it up..

A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
10-06-2012, 11:00 AM
Nah leave him, mate...

I really want to listen to his rants.. They amuse me.. Give him the "freedom" to express...

EDIT: Awww see ? You scared him off:(

When you make a Stupid, Idiotic and pathetic post, be ready to back it up..

PM is sent. And, no, haven't made a fool of myself. Describe to me what freedom is, since Americans apparently aren't free.


Thinking anyone is truly free is false. "We are all bound by some sort of law, religion or both. Even if we do not abide by either, we are still not free from death. Justice comes for us all." -yours truly, P. Johnson

but in all seriousness, the point to what I wrote before was that the American Government is very much like the Templars in the aspect of withholding information and knowledge from the public so that they can ultimately benefit and stay on top. Same goes with it's control of many aspects with the rest of the world. The biggest fear anyone with power has is losing it.

"The American Government is like Templars because they withhold information and knowledge." And other countries don't do the same thing? I'm sorry, but as an American I'm not inclined to know EVERY single thing that is going on. Now, yes, the government does withhold information that they shouldn't, but I don't need to know everywhere the president is going. I don't need to know every single detail on how the bin Laden raid was carried out. The public doesn't NEED to know EVERYTHING. Give me an example of a country that tells its people EVERYTHING. That isn't afraid of losing power. France? Canada? Egypt? What makes this an exclusively American thing? Or does this just stem from anti-US government sentiments? I fail to see how this is uniquely American.

LightRey
10-06-2012, 11:05 AM
Why would it be counterproductive? Their world is only 'perfect' in the sense that there is no war or any kind of conflict. That doesn't mean there is no need for progress. There are still diseases, accidents, catastrophes, not to mention the general benefits of technological improvement.

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 11:06 AM
PM is sent. And, no, haven't made a fool of myself. Describe to me what freedom is, since Americans apparently aren't free.
Nah you did make a fool of yourself.. or would you rather me show these fine people the PM you sent me and remove all doubt of your Stupidity and Ignorance ??


PM is sent. And, no, haven't made a fool of myself. Describe to me what freedom is, since Americans apparently aren't free.



"The American Government is like Templars because they withhold information and knowledge." And other countries don't do the same thing? I'm sorry, but as an American I'm not inclined to know EVERY single thing that is going on. Now, yes, the government does withhold information that they shouldn't, but I don't need to know everywhere the president is going. I don't need to know every single detail on how the bin Laden raid was carried out. The public doesn't NEED to know EVERYTHING. Give me an example of a country that tells its people EVERYTHING. That isn't afraid of losing power. France? Canada? Egypt? What makes this an exclusively American thing? Or does this just stem from anti-US government sentiments? I fail to see how this is uniquely American.

Jump up, young Patriot. In defense of your wonderful, Wonderful Country...

Accept no criticism what so ever... Be free

A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
10-06-2012, 11:43 AM
Nah you did make a fool of yourself.. or would you rather me show these fine people the PM you sent me and remove all doubt of your Stupidity and Ignorance ??



Jump up, young Patriot. In defense of your wonderful, Wonderful Country...

Accept no criticism what so ever... Be free

One. I responded to your PM. TWO, Who the hell gave you permission to post my Private Message. And, also, explain how my question in that PM is stupid. No, not in a PM, here, in this thread, since you felt the need to post my PM. Explain to me how the US is the worst nation on earth.

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 11:49 AM
One. I responded to your PM. TWO, Who the hell gave you permission to post my Private Message. And, also, explain how my question in that PM is stupid. No, not in a PM, here, in this thread, since you felt the need to post my PM. Explain to me how the US is the worst nation on earth.
I never said the US is the worst country in the world.. Hell, I'm studying there xD

And Gave me permission to post your PM ? Mate, I'm free I can post whatever I want without permission..

Can you ? I wonder... hey Assange how you doing, buddy ? oops

My God How this thread has gone horribly off topic..

MT4K
10-06-2012, 11:55 AM
I'm free I can post whatever I want without permission..

Do you really want to go down that road? ;).

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 11:57 AM
Do you really want to go down that road? ;).
Ah well.. You know what I mean >_>

With context to the rules, of course... <_<

A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
10-06-2012, 12:12 PM
This discussion's gone nowhere. I've explained my position. Simply, there's nothing about what you describe (Templar control) that is uniquely American. Agree to disagree? Because I'm tired of going back and forth with you.

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 12:18 PM
This discussion's gone nowhere. I've explained my position. Simply, there's nothing about what you describe (Templar control) that is uniquely American. Agree to disagree? Because I'm tired of going back and forth with you.
Of course the discussion`s gone no where, its Politics..And No, I had no part in that "Templar Schemes are Exclusive to America" Argument. The guy who actually started it is American, Like yourself..

You started with me rudely, Saying that because I'm from Cairo, I don't know real freedom. you EXPLAINED your position about that with Stupidity and kept contradicting yourself Numerous times about Generalization...

I agree with you that Templar Schemes are not "USA Exclusive" However; I take issue with your stance towards My Country...

IceHot100
10-06-2012, 03:07 PM
So what was this thread about, again? "why do templars continue to invent things?". Aaaand there we are discussing about America vs Cairo, "america has more freedom", "america is being controlled". I never read anything about america in the OP. Can we continue to talk about why templars continue to invent things like weapons?

Assassin_M
10-06-2012, 03:16 PM
So what was this thread about, again? "why do templars continue to invent things?". Aaaand there we are discussing about America vs Cairo, "america has more freedom", "america is being controlled". I never read anything about america in the OP. Can we continue to talk about why templars continue to invent things like weapons?
Y-Yeah... Since you haven't noticed, We were done over an Hour ago, but you seem eager, have a go at the topic...Although the topic was answered actually, so there is nothing to talk about

projectpat06
10-06-2012, 03:44 PM
"The American Government is like Templars because they withhold information and knowledge." And other countries don't do the same thing? I'm sorry, but as an American I'm not inclined to know EVERY single thing that is going on. Now, yes, the government does withhold information that they shouldn't, but I don't need to know everywhere the president is going. I don't need to know every single detail on how the bin Laden raid was carried out. The public doesn't NEED to know EVERYTHING. Give me an example of a country that tells its people EVERYTHING. That isn't afraid of losing power. France? Canada? Egypt? What makes this an exclusively American thing? Or does this just stem from anti-US government sentiments? I fail to see how this is uniquely American.

I never said it was only in the US. That's would be you who is implying that. I was just using my own country as an example rather than picking another country I'm not as familiar with. Besides I wasn't being serious about all of this. I'm just f***ing around so chillax

IceHot100
10-06-2012, 04:57 PM
Y-Yeah... Since you haven't noticed, We were done over an Hour ago, but you seem eager, have a go at the topic...Although the topic was answered actually, so there is nothing to talk about

Sorry, I don't normally look at the time a post was posted.Back to topic, this isn't really a question which can be answered correctly, assuming we don't really know why they're inventing/ discovering...

GreatBeyonder
10-06-2012, 06:54 PM
I don't think Templars became united in thought and practice until the creation of Abstergo. Before then, they seemed as disparate as the Assassins. What the Italian Templars fought for was quite different than what the Byzantines and Chinese Templars fought for. But yes, the Abstergo files in ABR Multiplayer pretty much told you everything you ever wanted to know about the Templars.

Calvarok
10-06-2012, 07:16 PM
Templars share aspects with any organization or group based on control and government. Assassins share aspects with both terrorists and activists too, so keep that in mind. The assassins have a ridiculous body-count. As a real life organization, I would oppose both templars and assassins.

A-p-o-l-l-y-o-n
10-06-2012, 07:56 PM
I never said it was only in the US. That's would be you who is implying that. I was just using my own country as an example rather than picking another country I'm not as familiar with. Besides I wasn't being serious about all of this. I'm just f***ing around so chillax

Yeah, the discussion was done 2 hours before your post... But, still. Either way, I PM'd M and basically I think that the Templars are still smarter than the Assassins lol. Mainly because education of the truth doesn't mean that people will follow peace. The Assassins want freedom through education, to bring about free will. That free will doesn't mean that people will naturally seek out peace. It means you will have individuals such as the Templars who will follow their own plans. It means you're going to have individuals who will seek war. You can't guarantee that a society will go in the direction you want until you control and guide it. So the Templars have a better shot at achieving world peace. But, on a realistic note, I think that's why there will never truly be world peace. Because you can't control the desires and aspirations of man. Truth is, there are people in the world who want to have power, who set their sights on something they want, and they will take that thing regardless of what they have to do to get it. If it means war, genocide, committing atrocities, they will do it. That's why I believe that the Assassins' plan in game sounds good, but won't work. Was discussing with M about the whole Innocence of Mohammad video that was released in the US. Yeah, it's wrong to insult a religion, but that's the price the US pays when people are given the freedom of speech and expression without censorship. That's free will. When you say that you can say X and Y but not Z, then that's now free will with conditions attached. And is that really free will then? So there always must be some level, some degree of control and order. The Templar plan accounts for that. The Templar plan recognizes that you must control people if you are to suppress that human nature to seek out war and violence. Where the Templars fail is that they are cruel and oppressive. When their plan, their goals, don't require them to be.

And, Calvarok, that body count is why I say that people wouldn't support the Assassins in real life. And it's why I say that 1) you can have a Templar who isn't cruel or oppressive and 2) such a Templar would be better than an Assassin.... But, yeah, you really wouldn't support either in real life. And I wish that the Assassins and Templars were gray in that regard in the games. Because, while Connor wants justice, justice isn't always killing your enemies. And at the end of the day, he's massacring soldiers on both sides. Like in the last trailer. Great trailer, but massive body count. And that wouldn't fly over well at all in real life lol.

But, yeah, Templars keep inventing things because, well, look at how people flock to the latest technology, the latest Iphones, Ipads, Computers, etc. Look at how people are captivated by television and movies and the internet. It fits in well with their plans. And, it's not that the Templars' goal is evil. It's not that they want to destroy society. They want a progressive society, but they believe that they have to be the ones to guide it. And for the most part they have guided it, and I say it's turned out pretty well so far. Now, I think they should be allowed to use a piece of Eden to end war... stop terrorism at least. stop genocide at least. stop a lot of the gross evils in the world. Get rid of that, and you're a step closer to peace... sorry guys, the Templar plan just makes more sense to me. But I just think they need to brainwash those who are committing these gross crimes.