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Gil_217
09-24-2012, 01:47 PM
I never really thought much about this because I thought I just knew it all but as of late I've been thinking about the whole Assassin's Creed story, in preparation for Assassin's Creed III, and I'm just trying to make sense of everything, mainly the details, because the overall story is not difficult to understand.

Alright, so when I was going through the Assassin's Creed II story I got to a point where I realized I didn't knew how everything went and when I say this I'm referring to Templars and Assassins point of view regarding their knowledge of the Pieces of Eden and the Vatican Vault.

Before I explain these, it's important to contextualize the overall story of Assassin's Creed II regarding Ezio. So, we all know that the Templar's motives and objectives were centered around control, order, manipulation and power and in order to achieve all of these they decided to conquer the most important cities in Italy, in order to unite Italy under Templar rule. In Assassin's Creed: Lineage it's said that they already got Milano, and they are now moving to Firenze and later Venezia, but they eventually fail to conquer these ones because of the Assassins. Then, after losing Venezia, they somehow discovered the location of an Apple of Eden, located in Cyprus and retrieved it, only for Ezio to stole it from them. During this memory, that took place on June 25, 1488, Rodrigo (if I'm not mistaken) mentioned the vault for the first time, so it's safe to assume that he knew of the vault as late as 1488. The day prior to this event, Leonardo told Ezio of the prophecy, mentioning to him the Pieces of Eden and the Vault. After hearing all of these, Ezio realized that all that had happened like his father and brother's deaths, the attacks on the Medici and Mocenigo in order to conquer Firenze and Venezia were all a part of Rodrigo's plan to find the vault.

His exact words were:


he Prophet will appear...only the prophet can open the vault..." My God! When my uncle told me about the Codex I was too young, too brash to imagine it was anything but an old man's fantasy! But now I see....the killing of Mocenigo (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Giovanni_Mocenigo)....even the Medici (http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/House_of_Medici)....my father and brothers....it was all part of his plan! To find the vault...the Spaniard!

I know Ezio could have been caught in the moment and he could have been probably exaggerating but in that quote he suggests the Templars knew about the vault and the Pieces of Eden since the very beginning, as late as 1476. I always thought that they only found out about all of these around the 1480's, especially when in 1486 the Templars just completely changed their plans, when earlier in the year they wanted to conquer Venezia and put one of them as Doge of Venezia but later in the same year, when Ezio killed Silvio and Dante, they revealed that they did not longer want the Doge's seat and that was only a distraction, since their real plan now was to sail for Cyprus in order to find an Apple of Eden.

And how did they even found out about all of these, the Pieces of Eden but mainly how did they found out about the Vatican Vault? Yes, I know they had some of the pages from Alta´r's Codex but they did not have them all, and Ezio only found out about the location of the Vault when he recuperated all the pages and organized them, and even then he still had to use Eagle Vision.

I'm eager to see the responses but I will only have the time to check them out when I return from University.

pacmanate
09-24-2012, 01:55 PM
To add to your questions, why does he leave his clothes after his fight with Ezio in the vault and how does he get out.
Second, In Revelations after saving sofia, how come suddenly when they turn around there is a horse and an exit out of the city..

GreatBeyonder
09-25-2012, 02:21 PM
1. I believe Silvio was really pulling a Jacopo and trying to get as far from Ezio as possible by piggybacking on Rodrigo's expedition.

2. They ALWAYS knew about the POEs. The Templars are not based around the Church, but rather around Rome itself, because of the tech there. They were very heavily involved in Roman politics, especially with members like Caesar and Caligula. Remember that in the first game, the Templars already knew exactly what the POE would do and where it came from. Sibrand even mentions having encounteed one before. Bloodlines confirmed they actually kept artifacts in Cyprus. They are just as old as the Assassins, after all.

3. Its worth pointing out that both Altair and Ezio are pretty much kept in the dark by their mentors for their first games about things like this, though Mario is a bit more open than Al Mualim.

springtime1
09-25-2012, 04:34 PM
I know Ezio could have been caught in the moment and he could have been probably exaggerating but in that quote he suggests the Templars knew about the vault and the Pieces of Eden since the very beginning, as late as 1476. I always thought that they only found out about all of these around the 1480's, especially when in 1486 the Templars just completely changed their plans, when earlier in the year they wanted to conquer Venezia and put one of them as Doge of Venezia but later in the same year, when Ezio killed Silvio and Dante, they revealed that they did not longer want the Doge's seat and that was only a distraction, since their real plan now was to sail for Cyprus in order to find an Apple of Eden.

And how did they even found out about all of these, the Pieces of Eden but mainly how did they found out about the Vatican Vault? Yes, I know they had some of the pages from Alta´r's Codex but they did not have them all, and Ezio only found out about the location of the Vault when he recuperated all the pages and organized them, and even then he still had to use Eagle Vision.
Correct me if I'm wrong; I haven't played ACII in a long time. Ezio could have actually been referring to TWCB without realizing it, & never managed to piece together the crazy conspiracy of some prophet that he didn't initially believe in. In addition to GreatBeyonder's answer, we really don't know how the codex & apple revealed the vault. If it was just a bunch of glowing lines that pinpointed its location, then the templar didn't really need all the codex pages; just enough to understand what was happening & templar vision to see the map.



To add to your questions, why does he leave his clothes after his fight with Ezio in the vault and how does he get out.
Second, In Revelations after saving sofia, how come suddenly when they turn around there is a horse and an exit out of the city..
Rodrigo only took off his upper garment thing, probably to make it easier to climb out of the hole. The rest of your questions are game mechanic & design hiccups than anything else. It would be like me asking why can't I climb the trap tower in AC1 as I did in ACR when Abbas took the apple, or how does Ezio run for so long when he couldn't keep up with La Volpe without gasping in ACII, or why can't I run into the woods or climb easy objects in uncharted; story-wise those should be prominent, but game-wise it either didn't matter enough to be implemented or the game was too limited to implement it.

twenty_glyphs
09-25-2012, 07:15 PM
I know Ezio could have been caught in the moment and he could have been probably exaggerating but in that quote he suggests the Templars knew about the vault and the Pieces of Eden since the very beginning, as late as 1476. I always thought that they only found out about all of these around the 1480's, especially when in 1486 the Templars just completely changed their plans, when earlier in the year they wanted to conquer Venezia and put one of them as Doge of Venezia but later in the same year, when Ezio killed Silvio and Dante, they revealed that they did not longer want the Doge's seat and that was only a distraction, since their real plan now was to sail for Cyprus in order to find an Apple of Eden.

And how did they even found out about all of these, the Pieces of Eden but mainly how did they found out about the Vatican Vault? Yes, I know they had some of the pages from Alta´r's Codex but they did not have them all, and Ezio only found out about the location of the Vault when he recuperated all the pages and organized them, and even then he still had to use Eagle Vision.

I'm eager to see the responses but I will only have the time to check them out when I return from University.

Throughout the series, the Templars have been presented as knowing much, much more about the First Civilization and its vaults, temples and artifacts than the Assassins. We don't really know exactly how they know everything they do, and we probably won't ever know for sure, but it's clear that they know a lot that the Assassins don't. I would say it's probably because their whole strategy has always been to find and use First Civilization artifacts to suit their purpose, so they are more obsessed with the knowledge of those artifacts. Meanwhile, the Assassins seem generally concerned with stopping the Templars and preserving free will, so many of them don't seem to have done the same kind of research into the First Civilization and their artifacts.

Keep in mind that the Templars also knew about the Grand Temple in Revelations. They thought that Alta´r's library would give them directions to the Grand Temple. While I think that was wrong (the library only gave the right method of communicating a message only for Desmond), they still knew about the Grand Temple somehow. In the modern day, they know so much more than the Assassins, so much so that they have sought Desmond out for a specific purpose beyond just the map of the Pieces of Eden that Alta´r saw.

Alta´r gave the Codex to Niccol˛ and Maffeo Polo in 1257. Just a few days later, attacking Mongols stole the Codex from them and ended up taking it back to Mongolia. When Niccol˛'s son, Marco Polo, went on his famous journey it was really to retrieve the Codex from the Khans in the AC universe. After he brought it back to Italy, it was broken up by Ezio's ancestor not long after in the early 1300s. It's possible that the Templars learned a decent amount about the Codex from the Khan Dynasty, who were enemies of the Assassins themselves. We do know that Rodrigo Borgia was trying to get his hands on the Codex (Caterina Sforza said her husband made a map of the page locations) as late as 1488, so he still wanted it, probably just to glean as much information as possible.

As for the Templars knowing the Vault was in Rome, multiple people must have known that Vault existed beneath the Vatican. Someone built the secret entrance under the Sistine Chapel and the rumors of it must have reached the Templars at some point. It's not a big leap to think that's the Vault that the Prophet would open. But Rodrigo Borgia also had an idea of what was inside, because he told Ezio he expected to find God inside. He also laughed at the Assassins not having figured out what was inside the Vault. How he knew that, we will probably never know.

Gil_217
09-25-2012, 09:17 PM
1.

2. They ALWAYS knew about the POEs. The Templars are not based around the Church, but rather around Rome itself, because of the tech there. They were very heavily involved in Roman politics, especially with members like Caesar and Caligula. Remember that in the first game, the Templars already knew exactly what the POE would do and where it came from. Sibrand even mentions having encounteed one before. Bloodlines confirmed they actually kept artifacts in Cyprus. They are just as old as the Assassins, after all.

Obviously, when I asked when did the Templars found out about the Pieces of Eden I was only mentioning the Italian Templars that lived during the Renaissance, I wasn't mentioning the Templars that lived in other time periods, since it's pretty clear they have known the existence of the Pieces of Eden since forever. Now, just because the Templars knew about the Pieces of Eden since basically forever, that does not necessarily mean that future generations of Templars would be immediately aware of that, information like these can be lost, just look at the Assassins, since they, like the Templars, knew and actually possessed Pieces of Eden for a long time, but in the Renaissance, they just didn't seem to actually believe in their existence, as is suggested by a dialog between Ezio and Leonardo in 1488.

But hey, this isn't even the point right now, because it's pretty clear that the Templars that lived during the Renaissance knew about the actual existence of the Pieces of Eden and the Vault as late as 1476, and everything they did since 1476 was with the objective of acquiring power, control and influence (conquering Milano, Firenze and Venezia) in order to put Rodrigo as the Pope, therefore giving him access to the Staff of Eden and the Vault, while at the same time they were trying to locate an Apple of Eden, because not only would it give them even more power but it was necessary to actually open the Vault, but an Assassin just completely destroyed their plans. I for some reason, always thought that they only found out about these in the 1480's.

Regarding Rodrigo knowing about the location of the Vault (which was my main question), I guess that this is a question that just doesn't have an actual answer, we can just assume possible answers, possible ways on how Rodrigo found out about it, just like you did twenty_glyphs. We just don't need to know everything after all.

GreatBeyonder
09-25-2012, 11:26 PM
I assume Rodrigo learned of it either before or at least when he became GM. I can't believe they could actually forget about the Vault, especially when almost all Templar activity for the past few hundred years had stemmed from the Vatican in some form or another. The real question, I think, is why they didn't try to open it before. Or maybe they did but were not accepted for lack of being Ezio.