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Gloignar
09-18-2012, 07:38 PM
I'm I the only one that thinks that this mirror should REALLY be looked at? Because right now its kind of: if you go second and have the right cards its impossible to lose...

Why?

Well, that question is easy to answer...

Everyone knows that inferno is a hard hitting, low resistance faction.. but then, in a mirror, the person that goes first and get his Juganauts/Ravagers out before the other one just has the upperhand, you are forced to play allies in front of them, and you have only 1 ally that survives a hit from them (Lilim), but she comes very late when you go first...

Yes, I know that there are goldpiles, but since the amount of same cards in deck was reduced to 4, the odds of getting one in right time lowered a lot, specialy because the minimum amount of cards in the deck was not lowered (think it should be lowered to 40 cards + 5 events + 1 hero..).

Anyway, put 2 standard Inferno decks against each other, with 2 good players using them, play 10 games and I'm sure that at least 7 (or more) of them will be won by the guy going second... In all the other matchups its fine, because they all have 3/4 drops that survive the juganauts/ravagers (even more then 1 for most factions), but the inferno mirror is just lame.

Yes, there are spells, and yeah, i use 4 fireballs, 1 firestorm, 3 firebolts and 4 teleport in my deck.. but even with that, its not enough because you run out of them way to fast or you can only use them way too late.

Anyway, I'm I the only one that thinks like this?

And if I'm the only one, than fellow Inferno players, please explain to me how you handle going second (against a good player with a good drawing...)

Le.Rancord
09-18-2012, 10:50 PM
Ok so u ask what happens when enemy bas perfect curve and u dont get the cards u packed in? :P

I would not get to excited about ravager. In all my inferno games i won ravager won me not that much games, wich is why i dont play a full set.

r3tsa
09-18-2012, 10:53 PM
Well actually in my target inferno deck there is no place for ravager. :X

As for the topic, no idea how to handle it, mirror matches always tend to be more luck based, imo.

LordMaldazar
10-01-2012, 09:23 AM
Bringing this topic back to life.

I agree with the topic maker. I've been taking notes on this and, except if the player going second gets a terrible draw, he will win.

Just today, I played 4 inferno vs inferno already (out of the 5 games I played...), in all the games, whoever went second, won.

3 of the games where against BleH1988, in the first game right at the start (he was going second) I stated: You will win

Result? He won easy (and yes, I did play my best and tried to win). Next game, I went second, and guess what? I won easy..

3rd game, he went second again (lucky bastard :P ), and guess what? Another easy win for him.

For what I saw from our games our decks are very similar, kind of what has become the standard inferno (with teleports, town portals, firebolts and of course altars). We are about the same rank (at the moment that I'm writing this I'm 32th on lader and he is 34th), so we are both also NOT noobs, so I don't believe this is a learn to play issue....

Anyway, after this game I went another game, this time against another Inferno player.. I went second, and guess what? I won easy...

Now people can say that this is a learn to play issue or something like that, but I would like this people to give Inferno a try, and play lets say 20 inferno vs inferno (should be easy, I have been seeing a lot more inferno out there then any other faction), using a strandard inferno deck (think everyone knows what I'm talking about) and then keep score of who won those 20 matches.. you will see that MOST of them will be by whoever went second. Of course, some (few) times the person going first wins, but this is NOT because of their skill, but just because the OTHER player probably had a bad drawing (or you are really playing a terrible player... but if you are high ranked that should not happen anymore...)

WHy does this happen? Just because the way inferno is designed, they are designed for damage and not for resistence, but my this, the player in the 'defensive' has a terrible disadvantage, and as we know, in this game, the person going FIRST is actualy in the defensive, because he gets all his stronger units out later...

Anyway, I really think that inferno should be looked into... not only because of this mirror, but also because a lot of people are complaining about it in general.

Just one thing: Inferno is NOT overpowered, they are just a bad designed faction, if they are ahead they will get more ahead very fast and win very fast, if they are playing from behind/having to defend they will get owned HARD...

Ps: I'm not talking about Kal-Azaar decks, because indeed, they can do well going first or second in any match up, but for most of us its just not possible to build a deck like that because it's a deck build on nearly only rare cards... (shadow image, puppet master, armagedon, etc..)

BoromiRofGeo
10-01-2012, 09:38 AM
i played 2 times, maybe 3 times with malda yesterday.
once he put ravagers on a field it was a gg in round 6.
and i couldnt do a squat.
ravager+lilim should really need to look at more srsly by devs...

LordMaldazar
10-01-2012, 10:19 AM
Just played my 4th game of the day against BleH1988, he went second again.. (he is lucky :P ), and guess what? Of course, he won....

EDIT: and yes, I tried, I killed his early assasssin with firebolt, later on I killed his Lilim with my juganaut (froze it for one turn) and fore his juganaut at the same time, next turn I cleared the board with firestorm, but because he goes second you always take damage early on, so he just played Pao and next turn 2 altar and it was over.... again...

EDIT 2: Could there also be looked into the code behind the 'randomness' of going second/first. On avarage I go A LOT more first then second... yesteday I managed to go first for 12 games in a row (odds of this are 1 in 4096 if it was really random), then i went 1 second and then 4 first again... Lucky a lot of them where not against inferno.... And also today I already went a lot more first then second....

Le.Rancord
10-01-2012, 01:05 PM
so the thread is about, that u both play rush decks, and the one who is ahead in curve wins more. Thats quit normal in TCG that the one who is ahead in ressources in rush mirrors has a big advantage. The only thing u can do is minimize the effect with pile of gold and good spell usage. U can also play the week of the dead/doombringer route. usually enough to just block the big guys instead of controlling board early. And with week u have the advantage, tat ure enemy hits his month of flames or week of mercs less. If u get control use garants purge to strip the PAOS. Of course week of the dead might let u suffer in other matchups, but thats a tweaking.

Other things are going more on a spell route and transition into units. Also using belias possibility to darkness spells (Shadow image can work like a pao for ending the game as well, and the hero effect is an extra damage).

LordMaldazar
10-01-2012, 01:58 PM
Le.Rancord:

It's not that I necessarly play rush, but the problem is that all inferno units, with the exception of Lilim (and i can only have 4 of those in my deck) are rush units. They all have extreem low HP and very high damage, they can't hold the board long because they die extreemly fast/easy, especialy against another Inferno, because the juganauts and ravagers just kill any other inferno unit in one hit (except for lilim/mother breeder (not really a good card, and very late and is still killed by Ravager or by juganaut with any little buff)/ Lacerator (serious, one of the worst units ever.... and still dies to ravager AND is 5 might, so very late), or else other 6 cost creatures, but those are extreem late game units.

So if you want to play a inferno deck that is creature oriented, you are always playing a fast deck, because they have no other option.

Other way is of course playing a spell inferno, but then you would be using Kal-Azaar, but that is a totaly diferent deck, that does not or nearly not use any creatures and wins because of pao's/shadow image/puppet master/armagedon ALL rare cards... I don't think that anyone that did not invest some serious money in the game can affort a deck like that.

Anyway, I just don't think that a faction should have only those 2 ways to play, or you rush, or you play kind of spells only (Kal-Azaar), there should be the possibility of a creature control deck, but by making all inferno's creatures very low on HP and high on damage (with Lilim being the one exception, but again, you can only use 4 of her.. else i would use like 8 of her...) this is impossible.

You say about Pile of Gold, but first of all, the only thing that this does is shift the problem (now the first player is the one getting the juganaut or ravager out sooner and the second player has lower chances), but even with Pile of Gold, its not that usefull because you are only for ONE turn getting the units out, so you still miss your curve. Second that since they changed to maximum of 4 of each card in deck, the odds of starting with a Pile of Gold (or getting it in the first 5 turns, where every Inferno vs Inferno is kind of decided) is not that high, so you will add 4 cards, that are really only good for when going first and are only really good in the early game AND you will still in a lot of your games not get them in time...

Other thing you say is that you should go Magic in the beginning, this also is again not really an option, this would mean that you or stay on 1 might, wich means your highest health creature has 2 health, this means it dies to ANY creature of your opponent in one hit, and with the sweeps they can even kill 2 or 3 in one hit, this way you are out of creatures WAY before you get to the spells that actualy kill juganauts (4 magic at least, this would be 5th turn, and then, you can kill 1 juganaut/ravager...), by then you are already kind of gone.

Other way of course would be to first raise your might, but the problem is that you need might 4 in order to get any unit out that actualy survives something (Lilim) but this means it takes 7 turns before you get to might 4 and then magic 4, again, this is too late... (I try this a lot, but it's always too late, even if they are stupid and clumb units together so that you can kill them all, they will just play a pao or some altars to finish the job).

You can't just keep tossing creatures in front of juganauts because you will run out of creatures faster then you can get the right amount of magic, because they 1 hit kill any creature of yours.

Of course, you can jump around with your Juganaut (with teleport) to kill their juganauts/ravagers, but this also is not putting you ahead, specialy because they will probably also still have the turn 2 drop on the board, or a lilim on turn 4, those are doing heavy damage to your hero.

I can't see how Doombringer would change anything, he comes on turn 5, by, or you have lost at least the same amount of creatures (putting them in front of his creatures so that your hero survives) or your hero will be very low on HP. And you spend all your resource playing him, so then you finish your turn, and nothing stops your opponent from right away playing 1 or 2 creatures again and then you are in the same or even worse spot.

Of course it is possible to win going first, today I played again vs BleH1988, (5th game of today) and he was going first and managed to win, he played it out very well, had a gold pile AND i have to admit that i made a mistake (losing a juganaut for nothing early on) AND I did not get a turn 4 drop.. but still, he played well and kudos for him for winning ;)

So it's not impossible, the odds are just TOTALY against you.. And that is wrong. Saying that it is just because it's a rush deck is not an excuse, because this would mean that the entire inferno faction is a rush faction.. and then again it would be a terrible designed faction.

EDIT: Sorry for the wall of text!!! Just now when I posted I saw how big it is!!! Guess no one will be reading this :P

Fyrestorme
10-01-2012, 02:22 PM
I'm I the only one that thinks that this mirror should REALLY be looked at? Because right now its kind of: if you go second and have the right cards its impossible to lose...

Why?

Well, that question is easy to answer...

Everyone knows that inferno is a hard hitting, low resistance faction.. but then, in a mirror, the person that goes first and get his Juganauts/Ravagers out before the other one just has the upperhand, you are forced to play allies in front of them, and you have only 1 ally that survives a hit from them (Lilim), but she comes very late when you go first...

Yes, I know that there are goldpiles, but since the amount of same cards in deck was reduced to 4, the odds of getting one in right time lowered a lot, specialy because the minimum amount of cards in the deck was not lowered (think it should be lowered to 40 cards + 5 events + 1 hero..).

Anyway, put 2 standard Inferno decks against each other, with 2 good players using them, play 10 games and I'm sure that at least 7 (or more) of them will be won by the guy going second... In all the other matchups its fine, because they all have 3/4 drops that survive the juganauts/ravagers (even more then 1 for most factions), but the inferno mirror is just lame.

Yes, there are spells, and yeah, i use 4 fireballs, 1 firestorm, 3 firebolts and 4 teleport in my deck.. but even with that, its not enough because you run out of them way to fast or you can only use them way too late.

Anyway, I'm I the only one that thinks like this?

And if I'm the only one, than fellow Inferno players, please explain to me how you handle going second (against a good player with a good drawing...)

I think it's more about having the most creature cards out, or at least more than the other player, and in a formation that is strategic in regards to spells. If you have more cards out, you will have better control of the field and will most likely be able to take out the enemy's defenses first and break through to deal damage to their hero more often.

LordMaldazar
10-01-2012, 02:27 PM
Fyrestorme, I totaly agree with you, but why is this only such a big deal in Inferno vs Inferno? Because inferno only has 1 (viable) creature that survive's the Juganaut/Ravager, and that is Lilim, if they had some other 5 health creature in turn 3, they could put this in front of the ravager and force him to move (or to use some card to help killing this creature), because right now you have only 2 choices: Take damage on hero or lose a creature without it doing anything to his creatures, and both options are bad.

Le.Rancord
10-01-2012, 02:57 PM
Well its the same for stronghold btw. And Ravager kills allmost anything allways.

As I mentioned earlier there are plenty of options.

- Spells doesnt mean kal-azar, If you go first u allways got an extra point to spend on magic. You could use Belias and use some darkness spells.
- Pile of Gold minimizes the effect, I agree though that u cannot trade power for health in inferno (the wild griffin instead of 2/2/3 WITH 2/1/5) would be a possible solution.
- The Doombringer route is possible. Because u can block and loose a crature like wandering bard or helixian, without loosing to much. Even if u loose a unit u might make up that cardadvantage with doombringer. Its a matter of tweaking, that u can still do damage when u go 2nd but also recover from going first. 4 camp and 4 gold should be must have, to allways trigger doom in t5.

Ipwnfour
10-01-2012, 03:25 PM
In an Inferno mirror, when I go first, I often go for board control through spells if he has perfect opening. Use Fire Bolts and Teleport to kill his Juggernaut or Ravager. You could also place a succubus + Maniac/Demented in front of these 2 creatures.

It's not all that hard, just change your gameplay slightly when you're behind (in your case, when going first).

manytrees2
10-01-2012, 11:20 PM
Other way is of course playing a spell inferno, but then you would be using Kal-Azaar, but that is a totaly diferent deck, that does not or nearly not use any creatures and wins because of pao's/shadow image/puppet master/armagedon ALL rare cards... I don't think that anyone that did not invest some serious money in the game can affort a deck like that.

I can ... I guess i am a very lucky bastard *fg*.

Problem: First strike wins the game.

Solution: Globally buff hero health ... then games will take longer and more games will be dragged into late game :). At the moment the game is way to "rushy".

LordMaldazar
10-09-2012, 03:46 PM
Is there going to be done anything about this?

Serious, don't come to me with learn to play and stuff like that.. I'm top 10 most of the time.. so yeah, i know how to play the game... i'm also on top 20 on another tcg (shadow era) and I play tcg's more then 10 years already, so I have a pretty good idea about what I'm doing.....

And still, in my like last 20 Inferno vs Inferno 19 where won by whoever went second.... I mean, how can this not mean that the matchup is broken?

People say that it's because you play a rush deck.... No, I just use inferno units, the problem is that they are all MADE to be like this, give them creatures that actualy survive juganauts/ravagers and it would already get 10x beter... because right now we have 1, Lilim... and 1 is not enough....

Why not change the Tormentor/Lacerator to more defensive units? Because right now they suck and as they are now they would NEVER be used in higher ranked decks because they do low damage, die fast and kill themselfs ;)

Make Tormentor 2/3/5 and Lacerator 3/4/7 or something like that... (and remove that ability that most of the times just helps you doing damage to yourself..... or make him imune to it...)

Anyway, just fix the matchup....I mean, now it's just like flipping a coin... and that is ridiculous

Le.Rancord
10-09-2012, 04:42 PM
I agree on tormentor/Lacerator and breeder/mother breeder buff. All 4 cards are to bad atm. Also the wild griffin from 2/2/3 to 2/1/5 would be cool as well.

ITs not as bad as a coinflip, but this would give Inferno more diversity, wich would be cool. Show Xorm, enemy prepares for rush, but buhja creature control :D

BoromiRofGeo
10-09-2012, 08:39 PM
I agree on tormentor/Lacerator and breeder/mother breeder buff. All 4 cards are to bad atm. Also the wild griffin from 2/2/3 to 2/1/5 would be cool as well.

ITs not as bad as a coinflip, but this would give Inferno more diversity, wich would be cool. Show Xorm, enemy prepares for rush, but buhja creature control
i do not mind changing offensive properties of those units to more defensive, but in that case lilim/ravager should not stay with the same stats as well.
if that would happen then inferno not only be the nightmare of offensive but nightmare in defensive as well.
i literally will alt-f4 when see first ravager put on the deck in 4-th round...
possible solution to breeder mothers might probably be increasing their area blast to 2 instead of 1.

r3tsa
10-09-2012, 08:45 PM
While playing Garant, Broken Bridge can be golden, even slow can somewhat help.