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View Full Version : When virtual reallity is better than the real reallity.



jugent
07-02-2004, 03:55 PM
Forgotten battles reminds me of an low intelligent hollywood movie where one team has got "hero guns" and "hero ammo". A "hero gun" is a gun that hits everything everywhere. You can see it in most lowquality hollywood movies. The other side in thees movies has "bad guys guns" It shoots and shoots and hits nothing. It only move dirt and close hits.

From time to time the overmodelled "hero" planes have changed. Once it was the I-16 then the P-40, the Lag the La7 and today it is the Gladiator.

The AI opponent of a gladiator outcalculates Newtons law of gravity. The programing team of this plane must be a bunch of jokers.
The gladiator is a much harder AI-opponent than the spitfire.

The LW planes are ridiculus, they stall easy, they are extermly fragile, there guns are a joke, they starts to limp after a few hits. Why does a high explosive shell gives more damage at close distance?

The FW has a wrong placed revi-sight. Dont tell Oleg. The Me is has a glass nose. One hit in the propeller area and it starts to smoke and rattle.

According to this game the only force that could make good planes where the soviet union. The legends spitfire and Mustang are second to most russian fighters, not to mention the thunderbolt, it is a joke.

The americans and japaneese are both as good airplaneconstructors according to this game so in the pacific it can be eaven.

Its good for the selfconfidence of the Soviet unions airforce to have the best aircrafts in this game because they didnt have it nowhere else, if you look at the kill ratio during most air-war.

Think about how exelent the russian cars are and what a success the concordski did. And that the T-72 was a hard oponent in Iraq. No coalition force tank where lost in a tank-duell. And what a hard match the Iraqui and Yugoslawian airforce where. Not to mention the victories the eqyptian and syrian airforces achieved in the middle east against the Israeli airforce. The Mig21 against the Skyhawk, Phantom and Mirage.

This tells a lot of the excelent engineering of soviet material and military skill of the forces that used it.
It good for the dreamworld selfconfidence if the the virtual reallity is better than the real reallity.

jugent
07-02-2004, 03:55 PM
Forgotten battles reminds me of an low intelligent hollywood movie where one team has got "hero guns" and "hero ammo". A "hero gun" is a gun that hits everything everywhere. You can see it in most lowquality hollywood movies. The other side in thees movies has "bad guys guns" It shoots and shoots and hits nothing. It only move dirt and close hits.

From time to time the overmodelled "hero" planes have changed. Once it was the I-16 then the P-40, the Lag the La7 and today it is the Gladiator.

The AI opponent of a gladiator outcalculates Newtons law of gravity. The programing team of this plane must be a bunch of jokers.
The gladiator is a much harder AI-opponent than the spitfire.

The LW planes are ridiculus, they stall easy, they are extermly fragile, there guns are a joke, they starts to limp after a few hits. Why does a high explosive shell gives more damage at close distance?

The FW has a wrong placed revi-sight. Dont tell Oleg. The Me is has a glass nose. One hit in the propeller area and it starts to smoke and rattle.

According to this game the only force that could make good planes where the soviet union. The legends spitfire and Mustang are second to most russian fighters, not to mention the thunderbolt, it is a joke.

The americans and japaneese are both as good airplaneconstructors according to this game so in the pacific it can be eaven.

Its good for the selfconfidence of the Soviet unions airforce to have the best aircrafts in this game because they didnt have it nowhere else, if you look at the kill ratio during most air-war.

Think about how exelent the russian cars are and what a success the concordski did. And that the T-72 was a hard oponent in Iraq. No coalition force tank where lost in a tank-duell. And what a hard match the Iraqui and Yugoslawian airforce where. Not to mention the victories the eqyptian and syrian airforces achieved in the middle east against the Israeli airforce. The Mig21 against the Skyhawk, Phantom and Mirage.

This tells a lot of the excelent engineering of soviet material and military skill of the forces that used it.
It good for the dreamworld selfconfidence if the the virtual reallity is better than the real reallity.

ploughman
07-02-2004, 04:09 PM
You're pathetic. Why on earth are you waffling on about Iraqi tanks and the Tu-144, get a grip. This game is:

1. A game.

2. The best you'll find, as a game.

3. Not reality.


4. If you have issues, get a psychiatrist, not some software.

LEXX_Luthor
07-02-2004, 04:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Once it was the I-16 then the P-40...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So another old timer Noob must register under a new name for safety.

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

kchickenlord
07-02-2004, 04:16 PM
Why is the p-51 always the legend?
It was a success due to circumstance not engineering.
Had the LW had the pilot numbers and quality along with plane numbers and quality to equal the p-51 it would not be anything near the "legend" it is remembered as.
There are so many whiners that completely overlook the whole pilot and quantity aspect of the airwar. online pilots range from terrible to excellent on both sides with the net result of the dogfights not fitting in with historical statistics.
While the planes do need work in many aspects, thew way theyre being used only acentuates the problems

Luftcaca
07-02-2004, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
Forgotten battles reminds me of an low intelligent hollywood movie where one team has got "hero guns" and "hero ammo". A "hero gun" is a gun that hits everything everywhere. You can see it in most lowquality hollywood movies. The other side in thees movies has "bad guys guns" It shoots and shoots and hits nothing. It only move dirt and close hits.

From time to time the overmodelled "hero" planes have changed. Once it was the I-16 then the P-40, the Lag the La7 and today it is the Gladiator.

The AI opponent of a gladiator outcalculates Newtons law of gravity. The programing team of this plane must be a bunch of jokers.
The gladiator is a much harder AI-opponent than the spitfire.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


joking right???

I dont recall the P-40 "owning" that much in any of the game version

and currently the Gladiator is very easy to shoot down!

a few hits and so long gone for the count. I know what Im talking about since Im currently flying a campaign Leningrad 41 in a Lagg3. of course if you start to turn with a Gladiator...

you say that Lufwaffe planes are pathetic?

in an expert hand they are as lethal as any other birds in the sim

Conclusion: NOOB

see ya

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

Luftcaca
07-02-2004, 04:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kchickenlord:
Why is the p-51 always the legend?
It was a success due to circumstance not engineering.
Had the LW had the pilot numbers and quality along with plane numbers and quality to equal the p-51 it would not be anything near the "legend" it is remembered as.
There are so many whiners that completely overlook the whole pilot and quantity aspect of the airwar. online pilots range from terrible to excellent on both sides with the net result of the dogfights not fitting in with historical statistics.
While the planes do need work in many aspects, thew way theyre being used only acentuates the problems<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

excellent posting!
for those who think that the P-51D was by far the best plane blalhbahblah just imagine it in the hands of the LW in 1944, Easten Front

it would have been very so so, to say the least

for Long range high alt escort, unequaled by any other mass produced plane.

Bomber busting, gimme a 190 or a 262

low alt dogfight? gimme a Yak3 or a La7


to each plane its own place to shine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

JaBo_HH-BlackSheep
07-02-2004, 05:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftcaca:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kchickenlord:
Why is the p-51 always the legend?
It was a success due to circumstance not engineering.
Had the LW had the pilot numbers and quality along with plane numbers and quality to equal the p-51 it would not be anything near the "legend" it is remembered as.
There are so many whiners that completely overlook the whole pilot and quantity aspect of the airwar. online pilots range from terrible to excellent on both sides with the net result of the dogfights not fitting in with historical statistics.
While the planes do need work in many aspects, thew way theyre being used only acentuates the problems<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

excellent posting!
for those who think that the P-51D was by far the best plane blalhbahblah just imagine it in the hands of the LW in 1944, Easten Front

it would have been very so so, to say the least

for Long range high alt escort, unequaled by any other mass produced plane.

Bomber busting, gimme a 190 or a 262

low alt dogfight? gimme a Yak3 or a La7


to each plane its own place to shine http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FW owns Spitfire http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/blacksheep.jpg

Luftcaca
07-02-2004, 05:43 PM
not necessarily

with the 190 it is even more important to have the energy advantage at the beginning of the fight than with the Spit, cuz of the way both plane behaves at low speed

If you catch the 190's at low speed and low enough (alt) so they cant dive away then you have good change to wipe em all (considering equal odds)

if the 190's come from above with the advantage...better have a good health insurance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst

CaptainGelo
07-03-2004, 03:49 AM
cool...post like that shows up ones a month....and every time its new reg. user who maybe played game for a week who post it..........but...its fun to read posts like that.....I almost felt of my chair..how stupid can a person be or maybe I should ask how old...

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

LEXX_Luthor
07-03-2004, 06:03 AM
oleg86:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>every time its new reg. user who maybe played game for a week who post it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They post I~16 which had "embarassing" characteristics early last year.

So that was really oleg86 it was? mmmm http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

pcisbest
07-03-2004, 06:26 AM
Also, we did lose some M1 tnaks in the first Gulf War, about 11 if I remember, but no crewmembers killed, just "mobility kills". The T-72 was actually an excellent tank, it isnt fair to say that it was bad just because they were destroyed en masse in the Gulf. For one, most of the Iraqi tank force was taken from the air (the Coalition deliberatley took out almost all T-72s and other high-grade armor from the air, leaving outdated T-54s and even a few T-34s to be dealt with on the ground), and for another, the Iraqi tank corps is not exactly the best in the world with regards to their crews.

The reason the kill ratios were bad for the Russaians during the first part of the war had more to do with the proficiency of their pilots then it did with their aircraft. You should know that even early on, a good pilot could outmaneuver a 109 with an I-16 or I-153. Through the middle and late war years, some of the best planes were Russian. The Yak 3 and 9U, and the La5/7 were able to outperform the 109 and 190 at medium to low altitude.

The reason the Thunderbolt and Mustang may seem not as good compared to lets say a Yak3 is that they are both at home at high altitudes. This is why, for example, the P-47 was used for boom and zoom attacks; it was not able to compete at low level in turing fights. The P-51 also, for all of its many qualities, was not the best turn fighter.

About the German aircraft, yes they indeed do have relatively weaker armament, but this is realistic. It took a good fighter pilot to get kills with the 3 weapons in the nose of teh 109, thats a pretty common understanding. They also were more "fragile" then some of the rougher built Russian types, though the 190 could actually take quite a bit of damage.

I cant go on forever, either you are not really taking enough time with the game to see that a lot of what you say is not true, or you are deliberately trying to get people riled up.

Adlerangriff
07-03-2004, 07:42 AM
The orig poster should go join the Fallen Angels. The are the one dimensional squad you are looking for.

They have a 30 map server without a single Russian in the game. Over there you can hear ad nauseum, how American bombing, the M1 rifle and the Mustang won the war.

You should like it.

PBNA-Boosher
07-03-2004, 09:48 AM
erm... STFU, you SOB.

Boosher
_____________________________
"So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All you have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to you..."
-Gandalf

JG27_Gundog
07-03-2004, 10:58 AM
[/QUOTE]that the T-72 was a hard oponent in Iraq. No coalition force tank where lost in a tank-duell. And what a hard match the Iraqui and Yugoslawian airforce where. Not to mention the victories the eqyptian and syrian airforces achieved in the middle east against the Israeli airforce. The Mig21 against the Skyhawk, Phantom and Mirage.

This tells a lot of the excelent engineering of soviet material and military skill of the forces that used it.
It good for the dreamworld selfconfidence if the the virtual reallity is better than the real reallity.[/QUOTE]

LOL see how many F15 pilots want to go into a dogfight against the latest varient of the mig29. You might be surprised to find out their feelings on Russian enginering.

LW_lcarp
07-03-2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pcisbest:
Also, we did lose some M1 tnaks in the first Gulf War, about 11 if I remember, but no crewmembers killed, just "mobility kills". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 1st M1 to be lost in battle was during Desert Storm Part 2 we lost "NO" M1s during the 1st Desert Storm to enemy fire.

"If winning isnt everything why do they keep score"
Vince Lombardi

WWMaxGunz
07-03-2004, 11:11 AM
Have to agree that one side has it the best.
That side is called 'AI'.


Neal

609IAP_Recon
07-03-2004, 12:26 PM
Interesting original post, I must say, despite personal attacks from others, I would say he has some comments that are quite true.

Salute!

IV/JG51_Recon

http://www.forgottenskies.com/jg51sig2.jpg

Obi_Kwiet
07-03-2004, 12:35 PM
Let's see a F-22 dogfight the latest varient of the Mig-29.

p1ngu666
07-03-2004, 12:57 PM
didnt we lose more to FF than to enemy in the gulf?

years of commy stuff is substard is ingrained in the psyche. russian stuff is often better actully.
i16 was better than a hurricane

http://www.pingu666.modded.me.uk/mysig3.jpg
&lt;123_GWood_JG123&gt; NO SPAM!

Vipez-
07-03-2004, 03:01 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by pcisbest:

About the German aircraft, yes they indeed do have relatively weaker armament, but this is realistic. It took a good fighter pilot to get kills with the 3 weapons in the nose of teh 109, thats a pretty common understanding. They also were more "fragile" then some of the rougher built Russian types, though the 190 could actually take quite a bit of damage.
[QUOTE]

Russian planes stronger than germans IRL? I would imagine it the other way around.. whereas russians saved every possible weight increase for loss of armor germans fighter devoplement was the other way around.. every year planes received more and more armor..


__________________________


http://www.leosk.org/tiedostot/sig-pieni.jpg

zjulik
07-03-2004, 03:35 PM
Notice how those who post this kinda stuff never proceed to participate in the following debate?

LEXX_Luthor
07-03-2004, 04:02 PM
They participate, posting under their normal name, agreeing with themselves. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

They come from teh internet dogfighter Noob Squads, the brownie point gathering tribe.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

kchickenlord
07-03-2004, 05:33 PM
Just to ensure im not in trouble, im not saying the p51 was a bad crate, it was an excellent aircraft.
But it gets on my nerves the way kids latch onto one plane and make it out the be a wonder weapon. like the way some "historians" latch onto the 262 as the war winning weapon, no one plane had the monopoly on all aspects of performance

Dolgiy-Nord
07-03-2004, 05:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Let's see a F-22 dogfight the latest varient of the Mig-29.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's see Su-37 dogfight F-22.

owlwatcher
07-03-2004, 06:47 PM
About the P-51.
Tried posting the Whole chart but could not get it to post right.
Anyway
Number of sorties flown 213,873 ,Bomb tonnage5668,USA/c lost in combat 2520
Enemy A/C claimed destroyed in air 4950
Enemy destoyed on ground 4131 and Combat mission loss rate per sortie 1.2%.

From American Combat planes by Ray Wagner

The chart compares P-47 (most sorties flown 423,325,)
P-38,P-40, P-39, Spit(USAAC),A-36,Beaufighter and P-61 .

Interesting in the way the planes were used.
Wish there were charts with accurate numbers on other aircraft.

TheJoyStick
07-03-2004, 09:10 PM
Vouching for the soviets...

They can damn sure make a good AK =)

pcisbest
07-04-2004, 02:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LW_lcarp:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pcisbest:
Also, we did lose some M1 tnaks in the first Gulf War, about 11 if I remember, but no crewmembers killed, just "mobility kills". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The 1st M1 to be lost in battle was during Desert Storm Part 2 we lost "NO" M1s during the 1st Desert Storm to enemy fire.

"If winning isnt everything why do they keep score"
Vince Lombardi<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is Desert Storm #1 and #2? Do you mean Desert Shield and Desert Storm? If so, then obviously no M1s were lost in Desert Shield as it was simply the build up of Coalition forces preceding the the four day ground "war". There was no real action during this time other then bombing sorties and a few actions in the Gulf itself. With regards to the actual deployment of Coalition armor, here is a quote from the book "Tanks" by David Miller:

"In Operations Desert Shield/Storm 1,848 US MBTs ...faced some 500 modern T-72s, about 1600 older T-62s, and about 700 1950's vintage T-54s. Prior to the land advance Allied air power destroyed some 50 percent of the Iraqi tanks, but as soon as the Abrams were unleashed they quickly dealt with the remainder in their sector, destroying large numbers while incurring only 18 battle losses, of which nine were permanent and nine were repaired. Not one crewman was lost."

Thought this might interset some people http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

BTW while we are on the subject of Russians, why do many people continually refer to them as "Soviets", yet when someone calls a German aircraft design or something else from the second World War "Nazi", you get tons of people rushing in to make the point that this shouldnt be the proper designation? Russian planes flew with red stars, so lots of people call them Soviet, but even though a German plane flew with a Swastika, to call it a "Nazi plane" would be suicide in here... Just an interesting inconsistency I have noticed. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-04-2004, 03:00 AM
Red star is compared to Black Cross, as noted by the title of the book "Black Cross, Red Star."


Nazi planes had swastika, that made them Nazi planes.

Communist planes did not have hammer~n~sickle.


All my Nazi skins have swastika, I refuse to download them without it. A gold hammer~n~sickle on red would be Awsum pretty on skins, but they weren't there so I don't need em. I wonder why Soviets never put hammer~n~sickle on their planes.

All USSR, USA, and Japanese planes had red balls--either alone or inside stars--in 1940. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Some others too I think.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

[This message was edited by LEXX_Luthor on Sun July 04 2004 at 02:10 AM.]

pcisbest
07-04-2004, 03:13 AM
Yes, but you are missing the point, the infamous Red Star became a sybol of Communism just as much as the Swastika did for the Nazis.

Even without gettting into the specifics of that, I mean it is funny to me how no one points out that not all Russians were Communists (indeed many, such as the Ukranians, were actually quite oppossed to the Stalinist regime), yet everyone will jump up and shout down the person stupid enough to say the "Nazi forces moved into..." or the "Nazi military did...", while saying "Yeah, the AK is a good Soviet design" or "The Red/Soviet armies pushed into Germany in..." is perfectly accepatable

LEXX_Luthor
07-04-2004, 03:31 AM
No you are desperately avoiding this. Hammer~n~sickle is the symbol of communism. The swastika is the symbol of nazism. Red star was more of a military insignia like black cross and white star used by White Russian planes in 1920s.

Granted, you never saw German planes with For Hitler or For teh Nazi Party painted on the side like the planes that had For Stalin and For teh Party of Bolsheviks lol.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>In our 122nd Regiment there remained five pilots, but there were 80 machines - you select which one to fly. There was "За родину" (For the Motherland) "За Сталина" (For Stalin) and "За партию большевиков" (For the Party of the Bolsheviks). And so I said that I wouldn't fly "За партию большевиков", because it was very oppressive. It's good that there weren't any NKVD (internal police) around. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif Then rearmament was done and we from all the regiments flew the planes home.

~ http://www.sovietwarplanes.com/Rybalko.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

pcisbest
07-04-2004, 03:40 AM
Desperately avoiding? Avoiding what? I think you are avoiding my point by talking about the cross and the star, I am looking beyond purely the symbols or words painted on the aircraft.

What I am getting at is that I hear plenty of people saying it is incorrect to refer to the German military as "Nazi", yet many have no problem with referring to the Russain military, and all its associated equipment, soldiers, aircraft, weapons, or whatever, as "Soviet" or "Communist".

Let me be brief: fine, the hammer and sickle stands for Communism, and the Swastika for Nazism, the black cross and the red star are more military symbols, okay settled. The point though, is that if I said the "Bf 109 was a great Nazi plane", I would be crucified in here, but if I said "Yeah, the Yak3 was one of the best Soviet fighters", there would be very few if, any people that would say I was being politically incorrect.

starfighter1
07-04-2004, 03:44 AM
hi,
re the topic:.. than it is game !

please remember also all those projects in East + West during Cold War Crisis....
sometime history is doing same procedere in technology development in general before the ideologic background ...

Anyway: professional Simulation to the modern strike forces/Wareforce is going more and more looking to real things.

'games are games' and simulation to military and industrial projects another point.

But both use a lot of same tools in programming...



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
No you are desperately avoiding this. Hammer~n~sickle is the symbol of communism. The swastika is the symbol of nazism. Red star was more of a military insignia like black cross and white star used by White Russian planes in 1920s.

Granted, you never saw German planes with _For Hitler_ or _For teh Nazi Party_ painted on the side like the planes that had _For Stalin_ and _For teh Party of Bolsheviks_ lol.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish _"Gladiator"_ listed as _J8A_ _...in Aces Expansion Pack_

_"You will still have FB , you will lose _nothing_"_ ~WUAF_Badsight
_"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..."_ ~Bearcat99
_"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age"_ ~ElAurens
:
_"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore_!_"_ ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

woofiedog
07-04-2004, 03:55 AM
Really Good artical Lexx-Luthor, and the Mig-3 series being one of my favorites for flying in the game... any reading sources from the real pilots are Welcome. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
But the author of this story was being very honest in his writting and the regular John Wayne stuff left out... which made it refreshing to read.
Thank's for the Link. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-04-2004, 04:04 AM
The interview is buried ~very~ deep in here http://mig3.sovietwarplanes.com/ in a new and slowly expanding website which includes the worlds largest (and only) MiG~3 website.

-------

pcisbest:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>..."Bf 109 was a great Nazi plane"...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fb~109 was a junk Nazi plane, as well as a flight sim Noob plane.

However, Bf~109B, C, and D were Crapp Planes. Crapp Planes Rule! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

LEXX_Luthor
07-04-2004, 04:12 AM
Excellent early Bf~109 in SPAIN pics...

---&gt; http://www.zi.ku.dk/personal/drnash/model/spain/bf109.html

At the bottom are rare pics of Bf~109B with Olympic markings.


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

woofiedog
07-04-2004, 04:39 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gifThank's again for the Link's LEXX_Luthor, I've all ready put these links in my Favorites files.
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gifI'm allways looking for Good reading sources from the Russian side of WW2. Most of it is just being written now. Hopefully more will come out before these Vet's and their Stories are lost to History.

LEXX_Luthor
07-04-2004, 04:45 AM
Oh its out, just never translated.

crazyivan? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif


Another one, looong interview with pilot of I~16, Hurricane, P~40, P~39, and La...four looong pages
---&gt; http://airforce.users.ru/lend-lease/english/articles/golodnikov/



__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

WWMaxGunz
07-04-2004, 05:02 AM
What we call the Swastika is an ancient, and I do mean ancient, good luck symbol.
The Nazis USED it but it does not mean or symbolize what the Nazis were.
It has been used in MANY times and places before. So FORGET the generalities
taught by mainly people ignorant of real history in favor of their own lives
and times.

It is better to learn what really came before and some of why. History is a
very rich field. If you go to depth, it will broaden your personality and
deepen your humanity.


Neal

LEXX_Luthor
07-04-2004, 05:18 AM
True but Lame. In our flight sim context here of World War 2 Europe, the swastika is Nazi.

Another interesting thing, the swastika red flags were laid out on German vehicles early in the WAR to prevent bombing by friendly Luftwaffe. Of course later in the WAR that stopped cos the Luftwaffe was not doing the bombing anymore.

http://www.ospreypublishing.com/osp_img/articlesimages/FA_AB03.jpg
http://www.ospreypublishing.com/content4.php/cid=68


Awsum new Olympic insignia Ju~52 skin--&gt; http://www.il2skins.com/?action=display&skinid=13151

We need Flyable Ju~52 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Left Engine Selected
Right Engine Selected
Center Engine Selected http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

F19_Olli72
07-04-2004, 05:38 AM
http://www.luftwaffe-experten.com/aircraft/night/ju88_01.jpg

LEXX notice that first paintscheme, when the Ju88 becomes flyable i will choose that skin to be assured im flying a non-nazi german plane http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

http://img1.photobucket.com/albums/v40/Olli72/Forgotten%20Battles/cloudtut/sig2.jpg (http://www.screenshotart.com)

LEXX_Luthor
07-04-2004, 05:40 AM
Okay, you got me. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

IVJG51_Swine
07-04-2004, 09:18 AM
There is a lot of truth to his original post. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I guess thats just the way it is and we have to deal with it or get out.

I doubt any sim will be 100 percent on but this is by far the most realistic one that I have played.

www.jg51.net (http://www.jg51.net)

CaptainGelo
07-04-2004, 11:59 AM
heh Lexx http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/93.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

CaptainGelo
07-04-2004, 12:01 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/52.gif
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

[This message was edited by oleg86 on Mon July 05 2004 at 12:18 AM.]

Dolgiy-Nord
07-04-2004, 05:32 PM
Let me be brief: fine, the hammer and sickle stands for Communism, and the Swastika for Nazism, the black cross and the red star are more military symbols, okay settled. The point though, is that if I said the "Bf 109 was a great Nazi plane", I would be crucified in here, but if I said "Yeah, the Yak3 was one of the best Soviet fighters", there would be very few if, any people that would say I was being politically incorrect.[/QUOTE]

Pcisbest, do you mean that in your perception nazi=soviet? Do you state that Soviets evil match Nazi-evil???

pcisbest
07-04-2004, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dolgiy-Nord:
Let me be brief: fine, the hammer and sickle stands for Communism, and the Swastika for Nazism, the black cross and the red star are more military symbols, okay settled. The point though, is that if I said the "Bf 109 was a great Nazi plane", I would be crucified in here, but if I said "Yeah, the Yak3 was one of the best Soviet fighters", there would be very few if, any people that would say I was being politically incorrect.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pcisbest, do you mean that in your perception nazi=soviet? Do you state that Soviets evil match Nazi-evil???[/QUOTE]

My observation was simple, you guys keep making it more difficult to understand than it is. All I said was that many people in here continually refer to Russain aircraft and forces as Red/Soviet/Communist, but if someone refers to German aircraft or forces as Nazi, they are immediatley criticized and informed that they should properly refer to the aforementioned as German.

The Soviets/Communists were the political and military leaders of Russia, and hence Russian forces, or weapons, aircraft, or whatever are commonly referred to as Communist or Soviet or Red. The Nazi party and Hitler were the political and military leaders of Germany, yet you dont hear too many people calling the German military the "Nazi military" or German aircraft "Nazi aircraft".

My point being, that I observed how people are quick to say that not all Germans were Nazis, and thus the term Nazi shouldnt be used as a substitue for German when speaking about them, even in WWII. However, no one seems to have a problem refering to Russians as Communists or Reds or Soviets even though 1.) Not all of the Russian people were true believers in Communism, 2.) many were actually adamantly oppossed to the Stalinst/Communist regime in WWII, and 3.) the Russians arent known as the Soviet Union anymore, and havent been for over 10 years.

This was all that my observation was, and has NOTHING to do with what the Russians wrote on the sides of their aircraft, how good the Bf109 actually was (Luthor, you didnt realize that was only an example I was using to prove my point, the Bf109 was not what we were talking about was it?), or wheather or not "Soviets evil match Nazi-evil". All of these things are irrelevent to what I was originally saying, if you guys dont have the mental capability to figure my poiint out by now, I guess I cant explain myself any further.

LEXX_Luthor
07-04-2004, 07:17 PM
You can't really refer to them all as Russians because many were non Russians inside the larger Soviet Union (the official name of the huge State btw).

Not many people here use the word "communist" when referring to the Soviets or their planes.

Now, back to our discussion about them Nazi planes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

__________________
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/10.gif Flyable Swedish "Gladiator" listed as J8A ...in Aces Expansion Pack

"You will still have FB , you will lose nothing" ~WUAF_Badsight
"I had actually pre ordered CFS3 and I couldnt wait..." ~Bearcat99
"Gladiator and Falco, elegant weapons of a more civilized age" ~ElAurens
:
"Damn.....Where you did read about Spitfire made from a wood?
Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

pcisbest
07-05-2004, 01:16 AM
Arrgh... Yeah, and we cant refer to everyone from Nazi Germany or the Third Reich (the official name of the WWII German empire btw) as German, as you *technically* have Barvarians, Pomeranians, blah blah blah.

"...when referring to Soviets or their planes." Alright, that is why I wrote Communist SLASH (/) Soviets SLASH Reds, the three terms all have the same connotation in this context.

Let me lay it out for one last time:

If I call the WWII German Wehrmacht, the "Nazi Military", or a Bf109, a "Nazi airplane", I will be bashed for being politically incorrect.

If I call the WWII Russian military, the "Red Army", or a Yak a "Soviet airplane" nothing is said.

We have one country, whose official name was the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, who had a one-party system, which was Communist, headed by Joseph Stalin. These people put Red Stars and Hammer and Sickles everywhere, and the flag for their nation/empire was Hammer and Sickle on a red background. For all these reasons, people call them Soviets, or Reds, or Communists.

BUT despite that the German people put into power a chancellor, who headed a politcal party called the Nazis, who flew banners with the German acronym for Nazi and Nazi flags in their formal military parades, who put Swastikas on their planes, and whose national flag also had the Swastika, which was flown in every part of the Reich, and put on vehicles.

Where are the differences then, in how these two regimes were structured? (No, I dont mean a detailed explanation of how the Kremlin worked versus the Reichstag, or anything like that, THINK about what I am writing). They both had a one party rule, with a dictator, both had a symbol for this party that was the national insignia, and the official names for these countries both were products of the ruling party. Yet, to be politically correct, one must refer to "Nazi Germany" from this time as Germany, while Russia is referred to as the Soviet Union, or things pertaining to Russia as Soviet/Red/Communist without any correction being made.

As I put in an earlier post, you cant even make the point that Nazi Germany no longer exists, so we refer to WWII Germany as simply "Germany", if that is indeed the rule, then why, almost 15 years after the fall of the Soviet Union, are we still calling Russian stuff "Soviet"? This was my observation, that there is a hypocritical inconsistency that prevails in this, and many other forums.

CaptainGelo
07-05-2004, 01:20 AM
Nazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi 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ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi 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NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi NaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNaziNa ziNaziNaziNaziNaziNazi ups, my button got stuck...

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http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
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plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

pcisbest
07-05-2004, 02:38 AM
OMG that "Fear British Army" clip is one of the funniest things I have ever seen LOL http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

Thanks for the treat oleg86 lol.

CaptainGelo
07-05-2004, 03:07 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

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http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
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plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

Luftwaffe_109
07-05-2004, 04:23 AM
pcisbest,

Soviet can be used to refer to aircraft, tanks weapons, armies, etc, because they were made by, used, owned, etc by the Soviet Union. One can also use the term Russian, however, Soviet is prefered as many who fought in the Red Army were not Russia at all, but Ukrainian, Bellorusian, etc, etc. Remember that the USSR was an amalgamtion of many other nations including Russia and nations which weren't Russian.

Yes Soviet can have ideological meaning however it can also simply mean: of the USSR.

However, the use of the word Nazi to describe airplanes is simply foolish, I've never heard of tanks, aircraft, ships, etc, having political persuasions.

Would you refer to comie planes or capatilist aircraft when having a serious discussion??

So yes they are GERMAN aircaft.
And they are SOVIET/RUSSIAN aircraft (depending on the period of Russian history you are refering to, of course).

And as for your "...as German, as you *technically* have Barvarians, Pomeranians..." this is absurd as these people are all Germans. Are you suggesting that Ukranians, Belorussians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc, etc, are Russians??

Regards

pcisbest
07-05-2004, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftwaffe_109:
pcisbest,

Soviet can be used to refer to aircraft, tanks weapons, armies, etc, because they were made by, used, owned, etc by the Soviet Union. One can also use the term Russian, however, Soviet is prefered as many who fought in the Red Army were not Russia at all, but Ukrainian, Bellorusian, etc, etc. Remember that the USSR was an amalgamtion of many other nations including Russia and nations which weren't Russian.

Yes Soviet can have ideological meaning however it can also simply mean: of the USSR.

However, the use of the word Nazi to describe airplanes is simply foolish, I've never heard of tanks, aircraft, ships, etc, having political persuasions.

Would you refer to comie planes or capatilist aircraft when having a serious discussion??

So yes they are GERMAN aircaft.
And they are SOVIET/RUSSIAN aircraft (depending on the period of Russian history you are refering to, of course).

And as for your "...as German, as you *technically* have Barvarians, Pomeranians..." this is absurd as these people are all Germans. Are you suggesting that Ukranians, Belorussians, Latvians, Lithuanians, etc, etc, are Russians??

Regards<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Re-read the post. If Soviet stands for the USSR, as you said, and I agree with you, that is a "political persuasion". Just as the Soviet Union was an amalgamation, so was the Third Reich.

And no, I wouldnt refer to "Commie planes", becaues that is exactly what I am arguing AGAINST!

"Depending on the period of Russian history..." Of course, my point! Depending on the period of German history, you could just as easily call them Nazi/German aircraft, but how many people can call them Nazi and get it away with it? Do you read me now?

This is not "absurd", look at the post I was quoting from and you can see what I was trying to use as an example. My same viewpoint is yours, that it is abusrd to break down the German people by those individual old blood lines and principalities, just the same way it is absurd to try and break down every grouping withing WWII Russia, as Luthor was talking of.

Do you guys even read my posts? Pretty much everything you said was only what I said, just reworded. You peoople keep missing this very obvious point: that it is hypocritcal to refer to Russian things as Soviet, when Soviet Union doesnt exist anymore. Even if you are using it in a specific historical context, such as WWII, then my point is that if it is appropriate to use the term Soviet/Red/Communist, it is appropriate to use Nazi, yet using the term Nazi in this way is deemed not acceptable by many. So, you have a basic inconsistency there that is hypocritical.

Just read the post aain please in more depth.

pcisbest
07-05-2004, 06:09 AM
Okay, I realized some other person will not read my post through and make another post that comes to the same conclusion, so here is a VERY simple break down, maybe then people can understand.

Germany in WWII:

One party rule? YES, Nazis

Said party in control of nation's government? YES

National flag reflects party? YES, Swastika on flag

Military fights in support of this governement? YES, even though not all members are Nazis, still fight for this country.

Nation (and its empire) made up of many cultural/ ehtnic groups? YES, Third Reich and Greater Reich encompass large areas of Central Europe, and almost all of Western Europe

Title that the nation bore in the world community? Nazi Germany, or according to the Nazis themselves, the Third Reich.

Russia in WWII:

One party rule? YES, Communist party.

Said party in control of nation's government? YES

National flag reflects party? YES, the Hammer and Sickle.

Military fights in support of this governemnt? YES, the Red Army, Navy and Air Forces, even though not all members of military are ture believers in communism or socialism, party membership is mandatory, and fight for their homeland regardless of politics.

Nation (and its empire) made up of many ethnic/cultural groups? YES, large amounts throught East Europe and parts of Asia.

Title that the nation bore in the world community? The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics, Soviet Union.

Germany post-WWII:

Equipment, forces, etc. refered to according to official, internationally recognized title? (Nazi), NO, simply called "German", not Nazi.

German people referred to according to the political party that had been in power? NO, recognized, properly, that not all Germans held beliefs of the Nazi party.

Russia post-WWII:

Equipment, forces, etc. refered to according to official, internationally recognized title? YES, e.g. the Soviet forces, or Red Army, or Soviet weaponry...

Russian people referred to according to the political party that had been in power? YES, called Soviets, and often Reds or Communists, despite that not nearly all held the beliefs of the Communist Party, and some actually fought against it. Also, 13 years after fall of Soviet Union, reference to Communism or Soviet for these people is irrelevent, yet continues to be used.

Typical forum behaviour exhibited:

Use of the term "Nazi": called being "politically incorrect", or wrong, or simple minded, even if in the historical context descibed above.

Use of the term "Soviet", "Red", or "Communist": happens frequently with little to no mention from anyone, seen as correct, even if taken out of the historical context.

Is my point plain now!?!??!

Fehler
07-05-2004, 06:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pcisbest:

BTW while we are on the subject of Russians, why do many people continually refer to them as "Soviets", yet when someone calls a German aircraft design or something else from the second World War "Nazi", you get tons of people rushing in to make the point that this shouldnt be the proper designation?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Simple...

Soviet Union was a country. A combination of many states and territories in one union. People from this country were called Soviets.

Nazi was a political party. One could be from Germany, a country, and not be a member of the political party. The Nazi political party was responsible for many horrible things.

It would be similar if you had asked "Why are people from the USA called Americans?" Why not call us Republicans? Well, because we arent all Republicans, that's why. But no matter what political party you belong to, if you were born in, or are a naturalized citizen of the United States of America, then you will be referred to as an American. Although, geographically speaking, anyone born or living in this hemisphere; Canada, Mexica, USA, Brazil, etc. could be called American as well since this hemisphere includes both the Northern and Southern American continents.

http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/FehlerSig.gif
http://webpages.charter.net/cuda70/9JG54.html

Zayets
07-05-2004, 07:14 AM
Overall,a good post.But don't take me too seriously.I'm a user.

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

HART_dreyer
07-05-2004, 08:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
The LW planes are ridiculus, they stall easy, they are extermly fragile, there guns are a joke, they starts to limp after a few hits. Why does a high explosive shell gives more damage at close distance?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO FLY A CERTAIN AIRCRAFT YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO ***** ABOUT IT... IDIOT.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

JG14_Josf
07-05-2004, 03:24 PM
Pcisbest,

If you wonder if anyone understands what you are trying to communicate then please consider:
A. They do but are not willing to admit it.
B. They do and are actively trying to obfuscate the issue.
C. They do not because they are only parroting what they have been instructed to think. They do not use thier own minds.
D. They have no other reason to communictate with you other than the enjoyment of aggravating you into responding (entertainment)

If I can offer my version of what I think you are trying to say then it is contained in a book titled:

Koba the Dread: Laughter of the Twenty Million. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/1400032202/qid=1089061629/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/104-8249736-3741513?v=glance&s=books)


Notice the title "laughter of the twenty million"

That book asks why is it OK to laugh about the people slaughtered and starved to death in Russia during the rule of communism while it is not OK to laugh about the people slaughtered and starved to death in Germany during the rule of facism?

Why?

My conclusion is that the question drives deep into our fundamental beliefs. It is safe to respect the victims of Germany's ideology that took the form of facism. That ideology is gone, at least for the foreseeable future, no one is threatened by fascism. That part of history is gone and to consider it is to consider all that is bad in the past. There is nothing funny about it.
On the other hand the ideology that propped up the regime responsible for 20 million deaths in Russia was very much alive after WWII. That idea was threatening. It still does in different forms. Fear is made more durable with laughter. What also makes that idea, the one that survives today, very funny is the obsurdity of it, the out right falseness.
For example: Utopia was perhaps achieved by that idea. It took the form of the Gulag Archipelago. Negative perfection.
Isn't it funny to call the uterances force out of peoply through torture as being: Confessions?

Perhaps not funny as in a joke that brings joy and laughter. But funny as in a nervous realization that such obsurdities really do continue to exist. It is better to laugh and forget about it, like closing your eyes in the hopes that you won't be seen.

CPS_Lav69
07-05-2004, 03:46 PM
I agree with original post. Its almost sacreligous to say anything negative about this sim. But there is no way the American planes were the bumbling beasts this sim portrays them to be.

------------------------------
http://216.77.188.54/coDataImages/p/Groups/205/205188/folders/147718/1114708dbtrb.gif
------------------------------
Double Trouble

Philipscdrw
07-05-2004, 04:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fehler:

Soviet Union was a country. A combination of many states and territories in one union. People from this country were called Soviets.

Nazi was a political party. One could be from Germany, a country, and not be a member of the political party. The Nazi political party was responsible for many horrible things.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What he said.

PhilipsCDRw
Grand Stenographer of the Boards.

View Cpt. Eric Brown's review of FB here (http://www.aerosociety.com/raes/news/SimReview.pdf) and discuss it here. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=309109534&r=875101634#875101634)

"Nietzsche is dead." - God.

Philipscdrw
07-05-2004, 04:50 PM
And Oleg86, by not putting spaces between your 'nazi's you've made the forum think that you've typed one very long word, and it streches the forum to try to make it fit, so I have to scroll sideways to see everyone else's message.

Next time you post us some processed porcine food produce, put in some spaces! Or I will get 'tennis neck' scrolling left and right trying to read everyone else's sentance.

PhilipsCDRw
Grand Stenographer of the Boards.

View Cpt. Eric Brown's review of FB here (http://www.aerosociety.com/raes/news/SimReview.pdf) and discuss it here. (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=309109534&r=875101634#875101634)

"Nietzsche is dead." - God.

HART_dreyer
07-05-2004, 04:52 PM
Yeah, he's a total idiot and should be banned.

Regards,
dreyer
the dreyer vs. Hartmann game! (http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/)
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."

Luftwaffe_109
07-05-2004, 07:09 PM
pcisbest,

You misunderstand, I have understood you perfectly.

You say "....This is not "absurd", look at the post I was quoting from and you can see what I was trying to use as an example. My same viewpoint is yours, that it is abusrd to break down the German people by those individual old blood lines and principalities, just the same way it is absurd to try and break down every grouping withing WWII Russia, as Luthor was talking of...."

You misunderstand my meaning completly. I know the point you were making, that they are all Germans. My point is that you can't compare this, as you have done, to the Soviet Union, as the many nationalities involved were NOT all Russian. That is all. Re-read MY post.

"...Nazi/German aircraft, but how many people can call them Nazi and get it away with it..."

This is where you are confused. Nazi Germany is analogous to Soviet Russia, Fascist Italy, Imperial Japan, etc. One would not say Fascist Tanks or Imperialist aircraft would they??

However, GERMANY is analagous to Soviet UNION, Italy, Japan as these are the names of the countries. Nazi Germany is NOT analogous to Soviet Union.



"...that it is hypocritcal to refer to Russian things as Soviet, when Soviet Union doesnt exist anymore. Even if you are using it in a specific historical context, such as WWII, then my point is that if it is appropriate to use the term Soviet/Red/Communist, it is appropriate to use Nazi, yet using the term Nazi in this way is deemed not acceptable by many. So, you have a basic inconsistency there that is hypocritical..."

I'll be bried. During the period in question there was no Russia as such, only the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics (short: Soviet Union) which INCLUDED Soviet Socialist Republic such as Latvia, Lithuania, the Ukraine, Moldavia, Russia, etc. So to be pedantic one should not refer to Russia (although I must admit I frequently do) but the Soviet Union.

Notice that one could still use Germany to refer to the Third Reich. Germany essential was the Third Reich. However, one CAN NOT simply use Russia to refer to the Soviet Union.

Finally, the words Nazi and Soviet are not analogous.

Nazi only has strictly political implications. If something is Nazi it is either directly affiliated with the Nazi Party or holds Nazi views. Neither is true of aricraft.

Soviet can have other implications. If something is Soviet it may only have been built in the USSR, or a citizen or soldier of the USSR. It does not neccessarily mean they hold Soviet Socialist views at all. This is true of aircraft.

Therefore, while one should use Soviet when refering to Soviet aircraft, one should not use Nazi when refering to German aircraft.


Regards

SwingerSpecial
07-05-2004, 09:39 PM
I had to read this thread a few times before it started to make any sense - for a moment there I wasn't sure if I should refer to the people of the Roman empire as "Italians". But, I did finally figure yout pcisbest's point.

I would say that the reason for "Nazi" being a more inflammatory term than "Commie" is due to the fact that Germans have been one of the "good guys" for quite some time now - It's not that long ago when in movies Rambo was mowing down faceless communist horde in Afghanistan.

To take into account the time difference, the question is, was it more acceptable to call Germans nazis in 1960?


About that M1 vs T-72 scenario - We haven't really seen a "fair" fight between the two. The Iraqi army had the flexibility of the old British army (lower level commanders have zero authority) and the tactical imagination of the soviet steamroller (1 speed forwards, 1 speed backwards, full frontal assault or last man standing defense). With leadership like that, I don't think they would have done any better even if they had been using M1's themselves. P40 seemed like a pretty useless heap of junk against the Zero until someone figured out that maybe you shouldn't try to turn with them :-o

GR142-Pipper
07-05-2004, 09:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by kchickenlord:
Why is the p-51 always the legend?
It was a success due to circumstance not engineering.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Not so. The P-51 was an extraordinarily successful aircraft by anyone's standard. It was THE dominant USAAF air-to-air fighter type...hardly an accident.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Had the LW had the pilot numbers and quality along with plane numbers and quality to equal the p-51 it would not be anything near the "legend" it is remembered as.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Woulda, shoulda, coulda...fact is, the P-51 IS a legend because it deserves to be a legend. It was truly an absolutely outstanding aircraft. It had range, punch and performance. To say otherwise is just not credible.

GR142-Pipper

jurinko
07-06-2004, 12:56 AM
to the original poster -

don´t underestimate Russian skill. On the other hand, whine about the communistic system itself. It can produce tens of thousands of tanks, but was not able to provide enough food and basic living material for its inhabitants.
Don´t underestimate Russian skill - do you know names like Ciolkovskij or Korolov? On the other hand, 75% of Soviet weaponry in late 80ties was based on stolen Western technologies. The fault is the system, not the Russians.
And concerning the aspects in the sim - well, if we get dirty cockpits, real overheating, wings tearing at 650kph and real damage models for Russian planes, who wants to fly them?

---------------------
Letka_13/Liptow @ HL

WTE_Galway
07-06-2004, 01:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Luftcaca:
not necessarily

with the 190 it is even more important to have the energy advantage at the beginning of the fight than with the Spit, cuz of the way both plane behaves at low speed

If you catch the 190's at low speed and low enough (alt) so they cant dive away then you have good change to wipe em all (considering equal odds)

if the 190's come from above with the advantage...better have a good health insurance http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.ifrance.com/boussourir/luftcaca.jpg

Formerly ''known'' as Gunther Aeroburst<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


If the Fw190 was so bad at low level how do you explain the summer of 1941 when Fw l90s were making scud-running low-level sweeps over southern England in daylight, against which the Spitfire Vs and Hurricanes then in service, achieved little success. The situation did not improve until the Royal Air Force received Spitfire IXs and more importantly the four-cannon Typhoon that was in its element at low level.

CaptainGelo
07-06-2004, 01:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
Yeah, he's a total idiot and should be banned.

Regards,
dreyer
_http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/_
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

dont cry "Sky captain"..... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

CaptainGelo
07-06-2004, 01:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Philipscdrw:
And Oleg86, by not putting spaces between your 'nazi's you've made the forum think that you've typed one very long word, and it streches the forum to try to make it fit, so I have to scroll sideways to see everyone else's message.

Next time you post us some processed porcine food produce, put in some spaces! Or I will get 'tennis neck' scrolling left and right trying to read everyone else's sentance.

PhilipsCDRw
Grand Stenographer of the Boards.

View Cpt. Eric Brown's review of FB http://www.aerosociety.com/raes/news/SimReview.pdf and discuss it http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=309109534&r=875101634#875101634

"Nietzsche is dead." - God.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1st of all I didnt knew it...2nd I dont care....

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
http://www.danasoft.com/sig/oleg86.jpg
'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''


plane is 2slow, guns are 2weak and DM suck?...Then click here (http://www.hmp16.com/hotstuff/downloads/Justin%20Timberlake%20-%20Cry%20Me%20A%20River.mp3) | Fear british army. (http://216.144.230.195/Videos/Medium_WMP8/British_Attack.wmv)

http://img23.photobucket.com/albums/v68/wolf4ever/Animation3.gif
Bad boys, bad boys, what you gonna do, what you gonna do when they come for you..

Black Sheep
07-06-2004, 02:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Dolgiy-Nord:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Obi_Kwiet:
Let's see a F-22 dogfight the latest varient of the Mig-29.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's see Su-37 dogfight F-22.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Be far more amusing to see the F22 fight as many Su-37's as you can buy for the same money http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

ImpStarDuece
07-06-2004, 03:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HART_dreyer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jugent:
The LW planes are ridiculus, they stall easy, they are extermly fragile, there guns are a joke, they starts to limp after a few hits. Why does a high explosive shell gives more damage at close distance?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


IF YOU DON'T KNOW HOW TO FLY A CERTAIN AIRCRAFT YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED TO ***** ABOUT IT... IDIOT.

Regards,
dreyer
_http://www.dreyermachine.com/il2/_
"Above us, there is nothing above but the stars... above us."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*Clears throat and does best Simpsons comic shop owner guy voice*

'Best, post, ever!'

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Flying Bullet Magnet... Catching Lead Since 2002

"There's no such thing as gravity, the earth sucks!"

"War is just an extension of politics carried out by other means" von Clauswitz.

Maple_Tiger
07-06-2004, 04:41 AM
Is our view of reality correct?

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://img52.photobucket.com/albums/v158/Maple_Tiger/FBAA2.gif
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

starfighter1
07-08-2004, 01:12 AM
hi,
good question..indeed
hope the future pilots cockpit + gunsight views in this new pc-sim BoB will be more correct...

a pic of past reality:

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bob1940/gallery/hurripilot1024.bmp



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Maple_Tiger:
Is our view of reality correct?

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

Flying_Merkava
07-08-2004, 01:26 AM
lmao thanks for the laughs I needed that http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/88.gif

Bearcat99
07-08-2004, 06:41 AM
IBTL..............
AFAIC 2 posts = NOOB. Which in and of itself is not a bad thing and of course 2 posts alone mean nothing about someones sim experience however in THIS sim I have found that people who frequent this forum and gain a better understanding of the sim and the planes in it before shooting off at the mouth tend to fare a bit better.

No comment on the Pony haters.... it's pointless.... The original poster should know better than to say anything positive about any American aircraft in this sim on this forum and not expect the roaches to come out of the woodwork.

I coouldnt wade through this whole morass bvut i did see someone making reference to "Nazi" planes... now that isnt very nice..... All the men who flew those planes werent card carrying Nazis..... That is a term that symbolizes evil and to many Germans it is a point of shame in thier history. I tell ya.. I just dont see why it is so hard for some people to be just a tad considerate....... it boggles the mind the levels of childish idiocy on these forums sometimes.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | Sturmovik Essentials (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959) | MUDMOVERS (http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm)

IMMERSION BABY!!

pcisbest
07-09-2004, 03:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
IBTL..............
AFAIC 2 posts = NOOB. Which in and of itself is not a bad thing and of course 2 posts alone mean nothing about someones sim experience however in THIS sim I have found that people who frequent this forum and gain a better understanding of the sim and the planes in it before shooting off at the mouth tend to fare a bit better.

No comment on the Pony haters.... it's pointless.... The original poster should know better than to say anything positive about any American aircraft in this sim on this forum and not expect the roaches to come out of the woodwork.

I coouldnt wade through this whole morass bvut i did see someone making reference to "Nazi" planes... now that isnt very nice..... All the men who flew those planes werent card carrying Nazis..... That is a term that symbolizes evil and to many Germans it is a point of shame in thier history. I tell ya.. I just dont see why it is so hard for some people to be just a tad considerate....... it boggles the mind the levels of childish idiocy on these forums sometimes.

http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html_vflyer@comcast.net_ http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat
http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html | http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/ | http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=23110283&m=51910959 | http://magnum-pc.netfirms.com/mudmovers/index.htm

_IMMERSION BABY!!_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, and to paraphrase you, not all Russian pilots were "card carrying Communists" either. I imagine that us constantly referring to Russian equipment as Red or Soviet even nearly 15 years after the fall of the USSR is a little irritating for many Russians who consider the Stalinst era a "point of shame in their history".

"...just dont see why it so hard for some people to be just a tad considerate..." Uhhh, Bearcat, if you read the post, you would have noticed I was referring to "Nazi planes" in a rhetorical sense only to give people pause so that they think about the prevailing use of "Soviet" "Red", or "Communist" as a substitue for "Russian". My point was, and has always been, that it is a contridiction to "stand up" for the Germans and point out that Nazi is an unfair and incorrect term for the German people, while casually referring to Russian equipment or forces as Communist/Red/Soviet.

"it boggles the mind the levels of childish idiocy on these forums sometimes." Exactly what I was thinking when I read this post, here, four pages in, you and others still dont get the point, you read enough into my posts to recognize the words "Nazi planes" but dont bother to actually sit and think about it enough to see WHY I was using those words, or to what purpose.

You proved EXACTLY what I had been talking about all along. You are sure quick to point out how it "isnt very nice" to refer to Germans or German equipment as Nazi, even though the coutnry was known as Nazi Germany or the Third Reich in WWII, and was headed by a Nazi government, that flew Nazi flags and was recognized internationally as such. Despite all of that, you bring up the valid point that not all German people were Nazis. My point was that why is it considered nice to refer to Russians, or anyone from the former USSR, as Soviets, Reds, or Communists?

It cant be a double standard, in other words. If people are going to call everything Russian "Soviet", "Red", or "Communist, then they need to be prepared to call everything from Germany "Nazi". You cant call Russian things according to a political identification (one that no longer exist btw), but then NOT do so with the Germans, it is being hypocritical, you see?