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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 09:29 PM
I've noticed that the gunners dont' track the enemy fighters when they're shooting. Some gunners don't even fire at all. I propose this:

The gunners should be trigger happy and track their targets

BUT

The gunners should be less accurate.

This would keep a mutual agreement. I think that the tracking of targets and the increase in fire would make it more realistic, as well as the less accurate gunnery. With this setting. It would be more like flying into a crossfire than the crossfire flying into you. You guys see what I mean? I just want to know tho, has this idea been submitted yet?

Boosher-PBNA
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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 09:29 PM
I've noticed that the gunners dont' track the enemy fighters when they're shooting. Some gunners don't even fire at all. I propose this:

The gunners should be trigger happy and track their targets

BUT

The gunners should be less accurate.

This would keep a mutual agreement. I think that the tracking of targets and the increase in fire would make it more realistic, as well as the less accurate gunnery. With this setting. It would be more like flying into a crossfire than the crossfire flying into you. You guys see what I mean? I just want to know tho, has this idea been submitted yet?

Boosher-PBNA
----------------
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XyZspineZyX
11-17-2003, 09:51 PM
Well, yes, some other guys and I thought of something similar and had posted it here.

Hopefully, some guy at Maddox games read it and gives it a chance.

XyZspineZyX
11-18-2003, 03:15 AM
totally agree with that. It would be nice to give em less accuracy. FB has snipers instead of real gunners. Sometimes, we only see 1 or 2 tracers before we get our pilot killed. Was it so easy to shot a plane down ?

S~

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 12:02 AM
And sometimes, I see my gunners taking a coffe break while my plane is under attack. I think reality was somewhere between "occasional sniper shots" and "occasional lobotomy".

S!



- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 01:29 AM
''The gunners should be less accurate.''

Agreed, totally

Down with turret snipers! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif


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XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:36 AM
I thought German aircrafts were equipped with bullet-proof windshields? Guess I was wrong cause they keep killing me if I try to get them from behind/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

So I get them otherwise/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

rgds

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 06:38 AM
jmmoric wrote:
- I thought German aircrafts were equipped with
- bullet-proof windshields? Guess I was wrong cause
- they keep killing me if I try to get them from
- behind
-
- So I get them otherwise

That came out wrong! And it's supposed to be "in other ways" not "otherwise", my english really gets bad when I get tired/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

rgds

XyZspineZyX
11-20-2003, 09:13 PM
Does the aircrafts skill rookie, average, veteran, ace...
Does it change how good the gunners are?

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 05:07 PM
be nice if they were a little mor active and a touch mor accurate in the bombers. Seen some tail gunnes un ablbe to hit a fighter 100m directly in front of them! make bomers defenseless!

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XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 06:06 PM
Jumping into a bomber is good against vulchers and for your killrate /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 06:38 PM
Mr. Decent asked if the bomber's skill level affects how accurate the gunners are. The answer is a resounding YES.

If your bomber is Veteran or Ace, you can forget about attacking it. He will score instant, "first bullet" engine hits (oiling up your windscreen) or pilot hits a LARGE percentage of the time.

And that's why I think three or four times about attacking any bomber in a co-op, if I don't know what AI quality is set at.

I'll say it again: the biggest problem with AI gunners is that they use information from the game engine (because, effectively, they ARE the game engine) to make calculations NO human can make. The gunners know where the plane is going and what the pilot is going to do, so they are not thrown off by banks and rolls, except in a very rudimentary on/off way (whereby, if G exceeds X number, they won't fire; but they will continue to track, sort of like waiting for the "go" to pull the trigger). They are immune to G-disorientation (they never lose their lunch or get tossed around a gyrating airframe), and they can *instantly* swivel their guns when they "acquire" a guns solution, while the human gunner has to do all this adjustment by hand (by mouse?). Also, their aim is not adversely affected by traveling backwards or sideways, like it is with real humans. I feel the AI code has to work in additional "readjustment delays" for these kind of events, and then it'll be more realistic. A fighter *should* (and does) get nailed if it flies straight in, with low overtake on a predictable path and the bomber doesn't change flight profile....but add in any bomber pilot changes, or add speed and offset to the fighter's ingress pass...and that complicates the gunners job by orders of magnitude. This is what is NOT factored in (well) by the existing AI gunner routines.

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 07:47 PM
what about in fur ball maps? seem like they are rookies there!

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Lead Whiner for the P-47D-40, M and N and Hvars

XyZspineZyX
11-21-2003, 08:10 PM
I don't know definitively, but I'd guess they're set at average. They don't seem to nail you as often as the Veteran or Ace snipers, but when they do, it's always a "first BB critical hit"; the second you see tracer, you're oiled up or there are bullet holes in your canopy.

And you NEVER hear any telltale wing or fuse hits. You're either missed completely or you take a round in the engine or the noggin.

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 05:45 AM
Well, I also see the gunners sometimes shooting a fighters wing off, especially 109's and Ki-84's wings.

But again, overall the gunners are very unbalanced, sometimes scoring impressive sniper hits, while in other occasions they just do nothing.



- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg


Visit us at members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 09:30 AM
Go on a headon attack and the gunners don't shoot till you're way behind the bomber.

Attack from behind and you're doomed.

The germans didn't call attacking bomber formations suicide for nothing.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/klv_ubisig1a.jpg


Oh yeah, I'm a P-63 whiner too! /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 01:06 PM
Boosher-PBNA wrote:
- I've noticed that the gunners dont' track the enemy
- fighters when they're shooting. Some gunners don't
- even fire at all. I propose this:
-
- The gunners should be trigger happy and track their
- targets


Also those with magazine or drum fed guns should
have ammo limits enforced. Or for that matter
those with belt fed guns that did not have a continous
feed of the entire possible ammunition capacity,
although modelling additional belts for those that
could be shared among any gunners in the plane might
be a little tricky. Maybe this is a Next Sim (TM)
request?

Also I'd like to see gunners tell me when there is
a bandit on my tail!

XyZspineZyX
11-22-2003, 01:24 PM
One of the biggest problems is that:

AI bombers are soooooooooo d*mn stupid. So if you want to play an online war you need bombers with AI level Ace or veteran. Otherwise they hit NOTHING when they are sent to do some level bombing. If you set them to ace level their gunners are one shot killers.

So Oleg:

1st i support Boosher's idea: gunners tracking targets but AI level down.

2nd gunner AI level shouldn't be connected with plane AI, So i can set the bomber pilot and bombardier to ACE but the gunner is always average.

2 things we need in FB:
The 110 and the desert!!!
http://exn.ca/news/images/1999/04/23/19990423-Me110coloursideMAIN.jpg

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 04:59 AM
if they were any worse then they are now it would be pointless to fly bombers online, i hear alot of people complain about the accuracy of ai but these are also the same people who attack il2s and he111 directly from the rear and usually inflick serious damage before getting killed by the ai.

Also it wont happen but all the fixed gunner positions should by directly on the cross hair, right now a human gunner can never be as good as an ai becuase of the way the gunpositions are mdled


ex: the he111 nosegun pointing left

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XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 04:39 PM
The AI Gunners in the b17,s are ridiculous,they've taken over from the sniper AAA and ships gunners.
Just for fun last night our squad did a low level buzzing over some B17's on the ground, and we were at 700 knots /ias + & the b17 gunners were popping us out of the sky as if we were hovering in front of them,thats really silly.

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 04:58 PM
Dumber gunners please!
NOT TOO DUMB - just dumber!

S! Simon.
<center>

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''
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XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 05:27 PM
trumper wrote:
- The AI Gunners in the b17,s are ridiculous,they've
- taken over from the sniper AAA and ships gunners.
- Just for fun last night our squad did a low level
- buzzing over some B17's on the ground, and we were
- at 700 knots /ias + & the b17 gunners were popping
- us out of the sky as if we were hovering in front of
- them,thats really silly.


Go 17 gunners!! Remember those planes have 11 fifty cals on them! Some in power turrets. Not those Pee shooters on the 111. Why do you think they were nicknamed Flying Fortress! Put them in a group and it 11 times the number of planes for guns!

Bombers need to have effective gunners to survive. If you wanrt a cheap easy kill go vulch newbies!

Some ppl LIKE to fly bombers. They need a way to defend them selves. If they can't why bother to use them. How would you like to fly your favorite plane if everyone demanded it have only 2 303 MG no armour and paper for wings?

Extreme_One wrote:
- Dumber gunners please!
- NOT TOO DUMB - just dumber


if anything just a tiny bit better and bomber jock might have a chance in the game!


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Message Edited on 11/23/0304:35PM by Sniper762x51

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 05:42 PM
Errrmmm,if the B17 fortresses were THAT effective against the attacking fighters why were the P51's used to escort them all the way to germany and back.If i remember correctly they thought the B17'S would be ok but ended up getting shot out of the sky on a regular basis.
Theres reasonable and over the top,these gunners are OTT,sorry.

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 07:17 PM
Trumper, just read what I said earlier in this thread about the issue.

The gunners aren't always good, in fact as often as they score sniper hits, they also refuse to shoot!

Just about an hour ago I (in B-17) was attacked by a 109, and the 109 closed in on about 0.38 before my gunners started to shoot. If I would've had the chance to manually shoot, you can bet I'd have opened fire with the 109 at about 0.9 away.
All in all, the gunners have to be adjusted so they a) shoot more, b) score a little less amount of sniper shots and c) constantly operate on ONE (good) skill level.

Besides, if I would practice gunning with the 17's guns, you can bet I'd be able to score critical hits with only a few shots too!



- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg


Visit us at members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG

XyZspineZyX
11-23-2003, 07:48 PM
Well, i can only put as i find,on Q M B ,myself in a fighter v a b17 i can almost guarantee that as soon as i get in range to shoot at the bomber [which also puts me in range of their gunners] i stand alot less than a 50/50 chance of winning the encounter.
I have tried several different ways of attacking and the results vary from a smashed cockpit/oil leak to instant pilot death with one burst.
You tell me how a b17 sitting on the ground can hit 3 fighters going over at low level at 700+ knots I A S ,
Please also explain how in real life the b17's needed escorts then,i appreciate that when they are flying in a box formation they can be leathal,but in ones and twos they were stragglers.

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 02:24 AM
i think the sturmovik gunner shouldn't shoot too much, in order to reserve the very small amount of ammo. i would say keep the il2 as is, but change the gunners of other bombers.

XyZspineZyX
11-24-2003, 05:56 AM
Shoot too much? Guys, get to Hyperlobby, connect to Slammin's server (or try the "VFC Host" or Seabee's server), fly a 17 a few times and post your experiences here please. I think that would give you a new insight!


- Future

Commanding Officer of the 530th Bomb Squad
380th Bomb Group 5th AF USAAF

http://invisionfree.com:54/40/30/upload/p1083.jpg


Visit us at members.tripod.com/tophatssquadron , home of the 310th FS and the 380th BG