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View Full Version : Charles Lee has an Apple of Eden?



RatonhnhakeFan
08-04-2012, 08:51 PM
Something that intrigued me (sorry if already posted). In both the concept art of Charles Lee and a render of his in-game model, he has this very characteristic pose with a hand underneath the shirt:

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/3927/9exnn.jpghttp://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb57088/assassinscreed/images/4/43/ACIII-Charles_Lee_V.png
(in the picture on the right there's even a visible oval shape underneath the clothes)

Which looks just like:
http://img442.imageshack.us/img442/1498/1000pxglyph23.jpg
http://img23.imageshack.us/img23/1284/1000pxglyph22.jpg

I mean... It just seems obvious to me.

Considering that we already know that Washington has an Apple at least from 1781 and that he and Lee had this entire rivalry thing going on (especially Lee disliked Washington) and that Lee died in 1782, I think it's quite likely that Washington took away the Apple from Lee. Or perhaps they both had their own Apples

De Filosoof
08-04-2012, 09:02 PM
Good one :D.
I think this will be a very important story point.
Very excited about the storyline.

FirestarLuva
08-04-2012, 09:04 PM
Awesome! Good find! :D

De Filosoof
08-04-2012, 09:07 PM
Did anyone else notice the round shaped bump on his chest?
His fingers can't be that long. It actually has the shape and size of the apple.
I think Connor has to kill Lee for sure.

RatonhnhakeFan
08-04-2012, 09:11 PM
Did anyone else notice the round shaped bump on his chest?
His fingers can't be that long. It actually has the shape and size of the apple.
I think Connor has to kill Lee for sure.yes, I mentioned that under the pics ;P Totally noticed the oval shape and it can't be his hand unless he's a mutant ;D I seriously think that this is just so obvious, now I won't be able to even think that he may NOT have the Apple xD

itsamea-mario
08-04-2012, 09:12 PM
Maybe it's the same apple as washington?
We'll have to wait and see.

De Filosoof
08-04-2012, 09:15 PM
yes, I mentioned that under the pics ;P Totally noticed the oval shape and it can't be his hand unless he's a mutant ;D I seriously think that this is just so obvious, now I won't be able to even think that he may NOT have the Apple xD

aaah sorry man, didn't saw that sentence.

RatonhnhakeFan
08-04-2012, 09:18 PM
Everything they've said & shown about Lee, the fact that he looks the most "evil" on the concept arts (compared to G-Wash & B-Frank), the fact that he has this entire controversial real history (he drew plans for British soldiers which were discovered a few decades after his death which heavily hints at possible betrayal of the Continental Army) and the conflict with Washington make me think he will be one of (if not THE) prime antagonists in the game. Most likely not any straight-up evil caricature, but I do think he will be a Templar. And if he's Ratonhnhaké:ton's father, the Luke/Darth Vader analogy will be just spot on here

Slayer_WTF
08-04-2012, 09:21 PM
Why Lee should have given the apple in Washington?

RatonhnhakeFan
08-04-2012, 09:22 PM
Why Lee should have given the apple in Washington?
Maybe Lee "comes to the light side" eventually? Or Washington or Ratonhnhaké:ton take it away/steal it from him? Or Washington has his own apple. Lots of possibilities

nightcobra
08-04-2012, 09:26 PM
Everything they've said & shown about Lee, the fact that he looks the most "evil" on the concept arts (compared to G-Wash & B-Frank), the fact that he has this entire controversial real history (he drew plans for British soldiers which were discovered a few decades after his death which heavily hints at possible betrayal of the Continental Army) and the conflict with Washington make me think he will be one of (if not THE) prime antagonists in the game. Most likely not any straight-up evil caricature, but I do think he will be a Templar. And if he's Ratonhnhaké:ton's father, the Luke/Darth Vader analogy will be just spot on here

the facial features on the soldier seem to match a younger charles lee, i don't think he's connor's father but there's most likely a connection

http://www.lacasadeel.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/assassin-creed-3-connor-joven.jpg

De Filosoof
08-04-2012, 09:27 PM
Everything they've said & shown about Lee, the fact that he looks the most "evil" on the concept arts (compared to G-Wash & B-Frank), the fact that he has this entire controversial real history (he drew plans for British soldiers which were discovered a few decades after his death which heavily hints at possible betrayal of the Continental Army) and the conflict with Washington make me think he will be one of (if not THE) prime antagonists in the game. Most likely not any straight-up evil caricature, but I do think he will be a Templar. And if he's Ratonhnhaké:ton's father, the Luke/Darth Vader analogy will be just spot on here

Indeed. Lee will be one of the antagonists for sure. No doubt about it.

Slayer_WTF
08-04-2012, 09:29 PM
Maybe Lee "comes to the light side" eventually? Or Washington or Ratonhnhaké:ton take it away/steal it from him? Or Washington has his own apple. Lots of possibilities

And 'as curious thing..

Do you mind if I expose this theory to my countrymen and other forums?

Slayer_WTF
08-04-2012, 09:31 PM
Now that I think that was a classic pose that was in vogue at that time.

RatonhnhakeFan
08-04-2012, 09:31 PM
And 'as curious thing..

Do you mind if I expose this theory to my countrymen and other forums?

lol of course I don't mind. Go ahead and use all pics from this thread and anything else you want :) Sharing is caring ;P


Now that I think that was a classic pose that was in vogue at that time.

You're right, some portraits from that era have this pose. But not that much. And it's quite obvious that Ubisoft's used pics with that pose specifically because it allowed them to show Washington/Napoleon hiding the Apple beneath their clothes. So I think they would be consistent with using that pose/selecting paintings with that pose to hint at hidden Apple. Especially since there's a clear oval shape underneath Lee's clothes

nightcobra
08-04-2012, 09:46 PM
would be interesting if lee ended up being an assassin and the one who initiates connor into the order.

If he ends up being connor's father, which he could be due to Charles Lee giving birth to two twins with his wife was Native American in the year 1755 maybe we'll see connor's twin.

RatonhnhakeFan
08-04-2012, 09:56 PM
Now that I think that was a classic pose that was in vogue at that time.
I tried to search some more about this. From what I understand, this is a sing of Freemasons, rather than a 'portrait fashion'. And it doesn't seem like there's any mention of Lee being a Freemason.

TheHumanTowel
08-04-2012, 10:02 PM
While I'm not sure that picture is sufficient evidence I think Lee gaining a POE at some point in AC3 is a real possibility. We know George Washington had one. Maybe stolen in jealousy?

eagleforlife1
08-04-2012, 10:16 PM
I think it has a lot to do with this:

After many adventures he came home to England. Unable to secure promotion in the British Army, in 1769 he returned to Poland and saw action in the Russo-Turkish War, and lost two fingers in a duel in which he killed his opponent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lee_(general)#Poland

Slayer_WTF
08-04-2012, 10:46 PM
RatonhnhakeFan, I was thinking of a possible theft of Apples from Washington since the two did not agree.

YRTEP
08-04-2012, 11:34 PM
Maybe Lee "comes to the light side" eventually? Or Washington or Ratonhnhaké:ton take it away/steal it from him? Or Washington has his own apple. Lots of possibilities
Good find, but the correct spelling of Connor's birth name is Ratohnhaké:ton. ;)

RatonhnhakeFan
08-04-2012, 11:55 PM
Good find, but the correct spelling of Connor's birth name is Ratohnhaké:ton. ;)

hmmmmm I think you're right ****it! >.< one 'n' is unnecessary. I was trusting AC Wiki :rolleyes: Checked the official weapons video again and official ubisoft press release and indeed it should be spelled without extra 'n' :mad: Ehh, better to rectify the mistake earlier than never I guess. Thx!

And now my username has a mistake, great :rolleyes:

YRTEP
08-04-2012, 11:58 PM
hmmmmm I think you're right ****it! >.< one 'n' is unnecessary. I was trusting AC Wiki :rolleyes: Checked the official weapons video again and official ubisoft press release and indeed it should be spelled without extra 'n' :mad: Ehh, better to rectify the mistake earlier than never I guess. Thx!

And now my username has a mistake, great :rolleyes:
You're welcome. :p

FirestarLuva
08-05-2012, 12:23 AM
And now my username has a mistake, great :rolleyes:

So does my signature. :rolleyes:
Edit: Removed it. :P

MangoCookies
08-05-2012, 12:38 AM
Well, now we have a reason why we see Connor killing blue coats!

RatonhnhakeFan
08-05-2012, 01:48 AM
Nevermind :rolleyes:

monoman32
08-05-2012, 02:00 AM
Everything they've said & shown about Lee, the fact that he looks the most "evil" on the concept arts (compared to G-Wash & B-Frank), the fact that he has this entire controversial real history (he drew plans for British soldiers which were discovered a few decades after his death which heavily hints at possible betrayal of the Continental Army) and the conflict with Washington make me think he will be one of (if not THE) prime antagonists in the game. Most likely not any straight-up evil caricature, but I do think he will be a Templar. And if he's Ratonhnhaké:ton's father, the Luke/Darth Vader analogy will be just spot on here

IIRC Hutchinson said that the main antagonist hasn't been released yet and won't be until release. Hutchinson said he the antagonist is the best villian yet.

nutriton
08-05-2012, 04:13 AM
Im almost positive that The apple will have been stolen from Washington by Lee and one of the story plots will be retrival of the apple because it can win the hearts and minds of soliders. If you read Washingtons journal he always suspected Lee of treachery... Just my thoughts.

LoyalACFan
08-05-2012, 04:23 AM
Historically, Lee and Washington despised each other. I think if Lee has an Apple, it's definitely the same one as Washington's. Either he stole it from Washington for a while, or Washington stole it from him. I don't think they would forget to capitalize on the enmity between the two.

Slayer_WTF
08-05-2012, 09:15 AM
RatonhnhakeFan, I was thinking of a possible theft of Apples from Washington since the two did not agree.

MasterSimaYi
08-05-2012, 09:47 AM
hmmmmm I think you're right ****it! >.< one 'n' is unnecessary. I was trusting AC Wiki :rolleyes: Checked the official weapons video again and official ubisoft press release and indeed it should be spelled without extra 'n' :mad: Ehh, better to rectify the mistake earlier than never I guess. Thx!

And now my username has a mistake, great :rolleyes:

Ubisoft have said it was a mistake on their part and that the correct spelling is Ratonhnhaké:ton. It was only changed on the Wiki after Subject 16* (SickSteeny) spoke to one of the devs about it, and in one of their latest videos (or interviews, but I'm sure it was a video) I saw it spelled as Ratonhnhaké:ton as well. I'll try to find it in a bit, but the weapons video was released before they realized they made an error.

RatonhnhakeFan
08-05-2012, 02:10 PM
Ubisoft have said it was a mistake on their part and that the correct spelling is Ratonhnhaké:ton. It was only changed on the Wiki after Subject 16* (SickSteeny) spoke to one of the devs about it, and in one of their latest videos (or interviews, but I'm sure it was a video) I saw it spelled as Ratonhnhaké:ton as well. I'll try to find it in a bit, but the weapons video was released before they realized they made an error.

Really? :D That would be great, username saved! xD What latest video you're talking about? One of the official Ubisoft videos?

Slayer_WTF
08-05-2012, 03:13 PM
RatonhnhakeFan, I was thinking of a possible theft of Apples from Washington since the two did not agree.

RatonhnhakeFan
08-05-2012, 03:25 PM
RatonhnhakeFan, I was thinking of a possible theft of Apples from Washington since the two did not agree.
Yes, but the puzzle in AC2 showed that Washington had the Apple in 1781. We all assumed that he kept it and then passed down to other US Presidents. So I think Lee would only temporarily have the Apple in his possession.

Theft is highly possible, Lee & Washington's personal conflict is just too good to pass on

eagleforlife1
08-05-2012, 04:07 PM
As I said earlier, Lee's hand is in his jacket because of this:

After many adventures he came home to England. Unable to secure promotion in the British Army, in 1769 he returned to Poland and saw action in the Russo-Turkish War, and lost two fingers in a duel in which he killed his opponent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lee_(general)#Poland

RatonhnhakeFan
08-05-2012, 04:09 PM
As I said earlier, Lee's hand is in his jacket because of this:

After many adventures he came home to England. Unable to secure promotion in the British Army, in 1769 he returned to Poland and saw action in the Russo-Turkish War, and lost two fingers in a duel in which he killed his opponent.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Lee_(general)#Poland
It's a possible explanation, but there's still the clear oval shape underneath his clothes

Assassin_M
08-05-2012, 04:17 PM
It's a possible explanation, but there's still the clear oval shape underneath his clothes
That may be an Art mishap, where an artist chooses not to emphasize the presence of a figure underneath something and rather goes for the general oval shape to represent the presence of a non-oval shape..