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View Full Version : Spitfire versus Zero: Who would win? Wanna see?



XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 01:26 AM
I was searching the <u>National Archives of Austalia</u> and came across this wonderful wartime report comparing the Sptifire Mk V and the Zero.

Click this link:

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Items_Listing.asp?S=1&C=249&O=0&M=20&F=221

Scroll about 3/4 of the page down (it's the 4th from the last report) and click the "View Digital Copy" icon. It's 42 pages long. Other good information on Japanese planes contained therein as well.

Enjoy!

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 01:26 AM
I was searching the <u>National Archives of Austalia</u> and came across this wonderful wartime report comparing the Sptifire Mk V and the Zero.

Click this link:

http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/Items_Listing.asp?S=1&C=249&O=0&M=20&F=221

Scroll about 3/4 of the page down (it's the 4th from the last report) and click the "View Digital Copy" icon. It's 42 pages long. Other good information on Japanese planes contained therein as well.

Enjoy!

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 01:36 AM
If that link doesn't work, you'll need to do this:

Go here:
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/ResearcherScreen.asp

Type "Spitfire" into the "Keywords" field.

Hit search.

Click "Display" on the following "Results" screen.

Scroll down to the botton of the page and keep pressing "Next Page" until you get to "Record 221 to 240 of 249".

The Sptifire vs Zero report will be 4th from the bottom.

Click "View Digital Copy"

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 01:38 AM
Hell I'll take your word it's wonderful

but I'm content with what Chuck Yeager would say, it all comes down to the pilot...

Of course if he's the pilot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 01:42 AM
arcadeace wrote:
- Hell I'll take your word it's wonderful
-
- but I'm content with what Chuck Yeager would say, it
- all comes down to the pilot...
-
- Of course if he's the pilot /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
-

OK, but just don't go thinking you're gonna own a Zero in a Spitfire in a slow speed dogfight!

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 01:47 AM
OK, but a Zero with Yeager would lose to the Red Barron

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 02:15 AM
I read it and yes in a slow fight the zero is better but I'am suprised that it lasted so long.You will also note that at higher alt the spitfires broke off and re-engaged at will /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Also note that all the spitfire pilot's aim could have been better and if it had the result would have been very differant



"The Heavens were the grandstands, and only the Gods were spectators. The stake was the World. The forfeit was the Player's place at the table; and the Game had no recess. It was the most dangerous of all sports-- and the most fascinating. It got in the blood like wine. It aged men 40 years in 40 days; it ruined nervous systems in an hour. It was a fast game-- the average life-span of a pilot at the Front was 48 hours. And, to many, it seemed an Age."
- Elliot White Springs, WWI ace

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 02:18 AM
i dont have any pilot training at all

im sure i could totally botch up a slow speed DF in the Zero

its the plane only when pilot training is equal

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 03:54 AM
Here's some of the more interesting pages:

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/10.jpg

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/11.jpg

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/12.jpg

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/13.jpg

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/14.jpg

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/15.jpg





Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 03:59 AM
I seen that report after my first post the one I read first was a report of combat over Millingimbi ,do a search for zero and it's about 3/4 down the page.



"The Heavens were the grandstands, and only the Gods were spectators. The stake was the World. The forfeit was the Player's place at the table; and the Game had no recess. It was the most dangerous of all sports-- and the most fascinating. It got in the blood like wine. It aged men 40 years in 40 days; it ruined nervous systems in an hour. It was a fast game-- the average life-span of a pilot at the Front was 48 hours. And, to many, it seemed an Age."
- Elliot White Springs, WWI ace

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 04:32 AM
Very interesting and a good document to bring up...but nobody should really be expecting to have a slow speed fight with the Spitfire against a Zero (maybe there is some perception like that?).

The Spitfire was a good turner and a fairly manuverable plane as well as being a fast one and moderately well armed. But when its manuverability is compaired its usually vis a vis with the Bf 109 of the time.

In 1940 the two were fairly evenly matched in manuverability with the Spitfire pulling ahead a little bit while most German pilots were concerned with ripping the wings off (but probably not stressing the wing nearly as much as was possible). I've read reports where the actual tests show the Bf 109E and the Spitfire Mk 1 were virtually matched for manuverability in most characteristics. I'm sure there are variences and differences, especially as the war went on, and especially because the emphasis went to speed over manuverability.

The Spits should, when we get them, be fairly manuverable aircraft with average to very good roll rates (or excellent with clipped wings) and decent handeling in virtually all areas. But no turning with Zero's. Definately not.

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/temp_sig.jpg
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few." - Winston Churchill

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 04:44 AM
Baa Baa Blacksheep by Pappy Boyington will tell ya. IIRC it was Rangoon that was being pounded. Around Dec 22 1941 was the first major victory for the AVG and the allied forces in the area. There was one Spitfire left, and they knew the Japanese were coming cause it would scramble and head away from the action. Lamens terms: The Spits got the snot kicked out of them.

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 04:46 AM
I'm really looking forward to the A6M2 Zero fighter in the add-on pack. I may very well be the best low speed dogfighter in the game.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 04:49 AM
Even enough to beat the Yak3? O_O

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 05:56 AM
Elfunko wrote:
- Even enough to beat the Yak3? O_O


Even the p40 outflys the yak3



"The Heavens were the grandstands, and only the Gods were spectators. The stake was the World. The forfeit was the Player's place at the table; and the Game had no recess. It was the most dangerous of all sports-- and the most fascinating. It got in the blood like wine. It aged men 40 years in 40 days; it ruined nervous systems in an hour. It was a fast game-- the average life-span of a pilot at the Front was 48 hours. And, to many, it seemed an Age."
- Elliot White Springs, WWI ace

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 06:21 AM
pourshot wrote:

- Even the p40 outflys the yak3
-
-

/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
thats a funny one
tell us another
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"history is written by the winner" Miriam Daly

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 06:45 AM
truthseeker25 wrote:
-
- pourshot wrote:
-
-- Even the p40 outflys the yak3
--
--
-
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
- thats a funny one
- tell us another
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif
-
- "history is written by the winner" Miriam Daly


With combat flaps, it does at slow speed. However, I'm not sure this is a consequence of the P-40 turning abilities being modelled correctly. Maybe...


--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 07:14 AM
Excellent post! Thank you very much Sky Chimp. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

It must have come as quite a shock to the BOB vet Australian Spit pilots when they tried to lure the Zeros into a turn fight. Everything they were taught in Europe/Africa would probably get them killed very quickly in the Pacific.

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 09:22 AM
truthseeker25 wrote:

thats a funny one
- tell us another


I do it all the time in the QMB my p40m v 4 yak3 AI. it's not that hard,and I almost never use combat flaps I find the pitching up of the nose annoying.But then again I have been playing this game a long time so maybe after you get some practice you will be able to down them to /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

By the way I can also handle 4 ace zero's so I dont know maybe the p40 is to good now or you stink /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif



"The Heavens were the grandstands, and only the Gods were spectators. The stake was the World. The forfeit was the Player's place at the table; and the Game had no recess. It was the most dangerous of all sports-- and the most fascinating. It got in the blood like wine. It aged men 40 years in 40 days; it ruined nervous systems in an hour. It was a fast game-- the average life-span of a pilot at the Front was 48 hours. And, to many, it seemed an Age."
- Elliot White Springs, WWI ace

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 03:31 PM
If the P40 can outfight a Yak 3, with all other things like pilot skill being equal, then it's time to put the sim away!

The reality was:

P40 was a mediocre aircraft. Yak 3 was the most successful lightweight fighter of the war, and a brilliant performer.



"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 03:46 PM
Oh...regarding Spitfire Vs Zero...the outcome is obvious really. In any engagement between two different fighters an assessment has to be made of your machine's capability relative to the other before engaging. Which is the energy fighter, and which is the dogfighter?

Then, you engineer the fight to exploit the strengths of your machine. Spitfire V vs 109 or 190, the Spit is the dogfighter, no question. You would try to get the LW aircraft to lose E and sucker him into a turnfight. Then the advantage is firmly with the Spitfire.

Spitfire V vs Zero...the zero has better low speed DF ability than the Spit. The roles are reversed, and the Spit must revert to energy fighting tactics ie use of higher speed and altitude to make Boom and Zoom attacks, or fast hit and run passes, never letting the speed drop into the Zero's favourable range.

So, it depends on how well the pilot understands his and the enemy's aircraft, and his ability to take control of the fight.

"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 05:37 PM
if u dont fly ya plane properly, u will get downed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
sometimes u will get downed anyways cos it just wasnt your day.


whineingu /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
12-14-2003, 06:12 PM
That's it exactly. Said in one line what took me several paragraphs /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

"If I had all the money I've spent on drink....I'd spend it on drink!"

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 12:37 AM
- Baa Baa Blacksheep by Pappy Boyington will tell ya.
- IIRC it was Rangoon that was being pounded. Around
- Dec 22 1941 was the first major victory for the AVG
- and the allied forces in the area. There was one
- Spitfire left, and they knew the Japanese were
- coming cause it would scramble and head away from
- the action. Lamens terms: The Spits got the snot
- kicked out of them.

If it really says that in the book, then sorry it's a work of fiction.

There were no Spitfires in Rangoon in 1941, or 42 for that matter. None in Burma, none in Singapore.

The RAF in the far east was equipped with Brewster Buffaloes and small numbers of Hurricanes, but I don't think the Hurris were fully operational.

The first time the Spits met the Zero in combat was in 1943 over Australia.

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 12:39 AM
Very nice link Skychimp. I'm going to be busy looking at their records for hours. If only the PRO had digital copies online http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 12:51 AM
hop2002 wrote:
- Very nice link Skychimp. I'm going to be busy
- looking at their records for hours. If only the PRO
- had digital copies online /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
-
-

Thanks, Hop.

Those pages I posted are "greyscaled" and reduced in size to help with my bandwidth. The original is something like 52 pages long and in full color - and much larger.

I found several interesting reports. I tried keywords like "Spitfire", "Kittyhawk", "Darwin" etc and found tons of really interesting stuff.

Have fun /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg



"They had missed a good opportunity to keep their mouths shut". - Jack Chirac

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 01:00 AM
hop2002 wrote:

- If it really says that in the book, then sorry it's
- a work of fiction.


Boyington was an awesome fighter pilot. A pure antagonist in the air.

But a truthful story teller he wasn't. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif


I read in a book (can't remember which one) that while he was in the AVG there was an instance when he was in charge of a 3 plane fly-over for Chiang Kai-shek and Madam Chaing. While hung-over from the night before, he and the other two pilots got lost. They had to make emergency landings when they ran out of fuel. 2 of the planes could not be recovered.

Quite a character.


Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg



"They had missed a good opportunity to keep their mouths shut". - Jack Chirac

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 01:02 AM
- truthseeker25 wrote:

- I do it all the time in the QMB my p40m v 4 yak3 AI.
- it's not that hard,and I almost never use combat
- flaps I find the pitching up of the nose
- annoying.But then again I have been playing this
- game a long time so maybe after you get some
- practice you will be able to down them to /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
-
- By the way I can also handle 4 ace zero's so I dont
- know maybe the p40 is to good now or you stink /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-tongue.gif

Try to fly yak3 vs 3 p40m you'll find that you can outturn them as well and even eather.

---------------------------------------
<img="http://www.img.net/cliff-m/vvn/goringme.jpg" /img>

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 01:28 AM
Also, if you use the keyword "Mustang", you'll find some lengthy reports on that plane as well.

Regards,

SkyChimp

http://members.cox.net/rowlandparks/chimpy_2.jpg



"They had missed a good opportunity to keep their mouths shut". - Jack Chirac

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 01:51 AM
Fun post Chimp. Worthy of a V.I.P. I love the zero too.

I love your verbal sig even better

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 02:01 AM
nt



Message Edited on 12/15/0305:19AM by RAF74BuzzsawXO

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 05:02 AM
"is that it does not suffer any of the high speed maneuverability problems which the real aircraft did"

wth r u talking about!!!???

I just got off a server with P40M, P39N and Zeros. The Zeke's controls were locked up at 420IAS (near sea level, and they started to get locked above 350 I think), I was using full rudder input (as well as pitching) to roll and it was pathetic, less than 1/2 the rollrate of the P40/P39. At these speeds I could not pull enough Gs to black out (I had nose trimmed down 12 steps for normal flight) I had to wait for the plane to slow down before I could pull enough Gs to blackout, as I got slower I had to ease up on the stick to prevent blackout, while at the higher speeds my joystick was full back and I wasn't even close to grey.

I am not here to post charts, or tracks of testing with a stopwatch, I don't know exactly to what degree/what speeds etc. these things happened in the real plane, but I do know that all these faults are modelled to some extent in the game.

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 06:21 AM
Salute

You are right, my mistake, I was relying on my experiences with the beta version.

RAF74 Buzzsaw

XyZspineZyX
12-15-2003, 07:48 AM
EPP_Gibbs wrote:
- If the P40 can outfight a Yak 3, with all other
- things like pilot skill being equal, then it's time
- to put the sim away!


You are correct but it's only against AI and those buggers are stupid



"The Heavens were the grandstands, and only the Gods were spectators. The stake was the World. The forfeit was the Player's place at the table; and the Game had no recess. It was the most dangerous of all sports-- and the most fascinating. It got in the blood like wine. It aged men 40 years in 40 days; it ruined nervous systems in an hour. It was a fast game-- the average life-span of a pilot at the Front was 48 hours. And, to many, it seemed an Age."
- Elliot White Springs, WWI ace