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Mike8686
08-31-2004, 04:13 AM
WOW! I just tried using elevator trim during a dive in my 109K4,OOOOOMMMMGGGG what a difference! I use to hate trying to BnZ with 109 because of horrendous high speed manueverability but this trim improves it sooo much! Now I can make more deflection shots and last second adjustments while BnZing with the K4! I actually got it to turn so fast that my right wing broke off when I pulled on the joystick at 750kph!
*Mike break dances* http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mike8686
08-31-2004, 04:13 AM
WOW! I just tried using elevator trim during a dive in my 109K4,OOOOOMMMMGGGG what a difference! I use to hate trying to BnZ with 109 because of horrendous high speed manueverability but this trim improves it sooo much! Now I can make more deflection shots and last second adjustments while BnZing with the K4! I actually got it to turn so fast that my right wing broke off when I pulled on the joystick at 750kph!
*Mike break dances* http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

bird_brain
08-31-2004, 06:07 AM
Oh no! Ray Ban Jockey is back with a new alias. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Do you have it on a slider yet? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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CaptainGelo
08-31-2004, 06:24 AM
trim on a slider...? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

'''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''''' '''
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WTE_Ibis
08-31-2004, 06:44 AM
Here we go again. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/59.gif

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lil_labbit
08-31-2004, 11:10 AM
We do?
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Mike8686
08-31-2004, 05:43 PM
lol, I dont get it......WHAT HAVE I DONE?!

chris455
08-31-2004, 05:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike8686:
lol, I dont get it......WHAT HAVE I DONE?!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As soon as you recover from G-LOC we'l tell you.
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lil_labbit
08-31-2004, 05:48 PM
You've awakened Monobrows United !
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Night is better than Day

WTE_Galway
08-31-2004, 08:00 PM
got a G2 last week to read 120 indicated (thats right around the clock and past the 100 mark for a second time) in a dive and it pulled out fine with no real problems

i am sure the G2 never actually went that fast http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mike8686
08-31-2004, 09:20 PM
BTW, whats a labbit....?

wayno7777
08-31-2004, 10:37 PM
HUH! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/53.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

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Tully__
08-31-2004, 10:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike8686:
lol, I dont get it......WHAT HAVE I DONE?!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This forum has a long history of heated debate about whether the use of trim to aid pulling out of high speed dives is realistic or "gaming the game". You've awakened a monster http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Jasko76
09-01-2004, 12:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike8686:
BTW, whats a labbit....?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A labbit? Why, that's just a typo of WABBIT!

Regards,

Jasko
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Mike8686
09-01-2004, 03:07 AM
Well After testing with it for a while it almost seems that by using trim any aircraft can be as highly manueverable as it wants to be at speed...is this how it is, or how it should be? Should I feel guilty when trimming some during high speed dives in 109s?

Tully__
09-01-2004, 03:12 AM
Fly how you like, you paid for the game http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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michapma
09-01-2004, 05:16 AM
Mike,

The answer to your question is that the argument is only relevant when considering the question of "realism." This means comparing how real aircraft behave (and historically were used) to how the simulated aircraft behave in the game. As you have noticed, the trim is most effective at high speeds. There are arguments on both sides, based both on pilot accounts and knowledge of aircraft behavior, that speak for or against a historical use of trim at high speeds to increase elevator authority. Personally, I am convinced that trim was not used at it can be "exploited" (a key word in forum arguments to get around common accusations of cheating) in the sim. There certainly isn't much in the way of documentation to support it, and physics tells us that the airframes would not be able to withstand such forces -- the stress that such high-speed, small-radius turns places on the airframe is not modeled in a way that would stress or break the airframe in the game. This says nothing of what the pilot could actually withstand, or of the issues of stability that would accompany the application of trim at high speeds. So most who strive for realism in the game avoid this use (or misuse) of trim.

So basically it's a question of how you view the game. No, there's no reason for you to feel guilty about using it. You should, however, be aware that there are those who are very opposed to its use, especially online. Many feel that it is at best an unhistorical exploit that is not protected against in the game code, and many feel that it is cheating (there have been huge arguments around this issue) and are ... not afraid to let you know they feel that way.

The issue was addressed in Forgotten Battles by the introduction of a delay in the input of trim and the application of the input to the rudder. Something like 7 seconds from neutral to one extreme position. This prevents the use of trim for immediate combat maneuvers (actually there is a way to get around it). Part of the idea behind this solution is I think that it also takes time for a pilot to dial in trim, significantly more time than we can do it in with a slider or key combination. Quite a few people (myself included) are not so satisfied about this solution, because it doesn't address the more fundamental issues of stability and airframe stress. Also, the application of trim for level flying is no longer immediate, making it trickier to trim aircraft for level flight. However, we've sort of gotten used to it and the trim issue has died down very much since FB "replaced" IL-2 online. That's why you didn't understand the reaction here on the forum. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Regards,
Mike

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609IAP_Recon
09-01-2004, 06:21 AM
you mean 'holy bat flying batman'

I think trim is abused because it gives too much trim - if it was only used in minor degrees, it would be used for it's primary purpose - in FB it's used to gain a turning advantage, etc...

Not sure how realistic this trim is - seems off - but I never fly a warbird http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Would be good hear stories of trim used by ww2 pilots.

S!
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Aztek_Eagle
09-01-2004, 06:53 AM
WHAT TRIM? I CAN USE IT TO PULL OUT OF HIGH SPEED DIVES? OMFG I AM GONA GO TRAY IT ON YOU!

stubby
09-01-2004, 09:14 AM
So when I'm on a guys six and his plane is oscillating up and down like yo-yo, it's not necessarily lag causing that but spinning a trim while mapped to a slider? Damn, I'll have to try that too. Trying to hit a guy when's making radical changes position like that is almost impossible. Oh, throw in packet loss that guns experience online, you get more bang for your buck. No wonder I online is so much fun http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

lil_labbit
09-01-2004, 09:34 AM
If you realy want to enjoy trim - fly the Original IL-2 Sturmovik http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Because of all the whining trim has a delay in FB http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif - it's instant in IL-2Sturmovik though http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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labbit http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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IL2-chuter
09-01-2004, 01:10 PM
The 109 and 190 had trimmable stabalizers like airliners and the J-3 Cub, among many others. The 109's was a manually spun wheel that could be spun in reasonably quickly in a panicked mode (maybe) and the 190's was electric (later ones, anyway) and went at a fixed rate. The 190 also had the unique characteristic of a single trim setting at and above about 220mph. They're use in dive recovery isn't necessarily unrealistic, but would have been done . . . cautiously?. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Actually (being a pilot), I feel that what I do in the game would nearly kill me in RL. All of the sudden (instant) direction changes (co-ordinated and not) would be slammin me to silliness, let alone maintaining combat awareness.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/IL2chuter/152Htrim1.jpg

The 152H. Trim motor is suspended from above with dust boot, limit switches are small boxes just to left. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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ASM 1
09-01-2004, 01:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
*Mike break dances* http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


This I would like to have seen http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gifhttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif

S!

Andrew

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ASM 1
09-01-2004, 01:22 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by IL2-chuter:
The 109 and 190 had trimmable stabalizers like airliners and the J-3 Cub, among many others. The 109's was a manually spun wheel that could be spun in reasonably quickly in a panicked mode (maybe) and the 190's was electric (later ones, anyway) and went at a fixed rate. The 190 also had the unique characteristic of a single trim setting at and above about 220mph. They're use in dive recovery isn't necessarily unrealistic, but would have been done . . . cautiously?. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

Actually (being a pilot), I feel that what I do in the game would nearly kill me in RL. All of the sudden (instant) direction changes (co-ordinated and not) would be slammin me to silliness, let alone maintaining combat awareness.



http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/IL2chuter/152Htrim1.jpg

The 152H. Trim motor is suspended from above with dust boot, limit switches are small boxes just to left. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v366/IL2chuter/152Htrim1.jpg

S!

Andrew

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ASM 1
09-01-2004, 01:24 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/351.gif

Repost with photo

S!

Andrew

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