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View Full Version : Historical Debate: Operation Market Garden, was it worth the attempt?



XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:12 PM
In my opinion it was a daring attempt to get across the Rhine quickly, cut off the Rhur and end the War by Christmas.
I believe it only failed due to bad intelligence about the forces around the Arnhem area and by dropping the troops at Osterbeck to far from the objective and not because it was a bridge to far.
I also think it was a daring plan that had it worked would have hailed Monty as one of the greatest Generals in history and almost certainly the best US/UK Allied General bar none instead of the figure of contempt that some people believe.
What other plan do you think may have brought the war closer to finishing than Operation Market Garden?

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:12 PM
In my opinion it was a daring attempt to get across the Rhine quickly, cut off the Rhur and end the War by Christmas.
I believe it only failed due to bad intelligence about the forces around the Arnhem area and by dropping the troops at Osterbeck to far from the objective and not because it was a bridge to far.
I also think it was a daring plan that had it worked would have hailed Monty as one of the greatest Generals in history and almost certainly the best US/UK Allied General bar none instead of the figure of contempt that some people believe.
What other plan do you think may have brought the war closer to finishing than Operation Market Garden?

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:21 PM
If only they'd had more poncy red berets!

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:21 PM
Ok, some oil for the fire:


The intelligence was almost spot-on but, disregarded by the superior (whatever) because no-one wanted to interrupt general Montgommery's operation.

Besides the weather interfered air-support in any form greatly, I think that 'smaller' jumps at a time would've been more favourable.

1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye
shall be judged: and with what
measure ye mete, it shall be
measured to you again.

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:21 PM
Yes, it was a daring and brilliant plan. Perfect in every detail...well, except that one bit about opposition forces, but otherwise an absolutely wizard idea!

--AKD

http://www.flyingpug.com/pugline2.jpg

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:29 PM
You're going to get every armchair general replying to this thread, I would say the big fear of the seigfried line, or whatever it was called was unfounded. They feared this even though it was not heavily defended. They should of suckered the German army into a bigger fight in a controlled area and used their air superiority to wipe them out. Right through the Ardennes like they did twice, cut off the southern forces, and isolate the northern forces for the RAF to take out, or just let Patton in the south continue like he had been and keep the Jerries on the run and no time to regroup right after Normandy.

<center>http://www.skalman.nu/worldwar2/bilder/su-airforce.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:31 PM
Platypus_1.JaVA wrote:
- Ok, some oil for the fire:
-
-
- The intelligence was almost spot-on but, disregarded
- by the superior (whatever) because no-one wanted to
- interrupt general Montgommery's operation.
-
I remember this in the film but surely no intelligence officer could hold back on information vital to the Operations success. If so he should have been shot.

- Besides the weather interfered air-support in any
- form greatly, I think that 'smaller' jumps at a time
- would've been more favourable.
-
I think after the first jump the cunning Gerries would have realised the way advance was going and blown the bridges before the next jump took place.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:34 PM
It would have worked if Lee Marvin or Georeg C. Scott had been there.



Liege-Killer

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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:37 PM
I think it was an excellent plan, but it had no room for mistakes, and a lot of them were made.

Boosher-PBNA
----------------
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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:39 PM
psychopetey wrote:
- You're going to get every armchair general replying
- to this thread, I would say the big fear of the
- seigfried line, or whatever it was called was
- unfounded. They feared this even though it was not
- heavily defended. They should of suckered the German
- army into a bigger fight in a controlled area and
- used their air superiority to wipe them out. Right
- through the Ardennes like they did twice, cut off
- the southern forces, and isolate the northern forces
- for the RAF to take out, or just let Patton in the
- south continue like he had been and keep the Jerries
- on the run and no time to regroup right after
- Normandy.
-
I like a good debate especially regarding WW2!
Do you believe Patton could have pushed all the way to Germany without some sort of German counter-attack when his supply lines were so stretched from Normandy?

I think the Gerries had learned not to be suckered in by the Allies to killing zones after Normandy

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:44 PM
Boosher-PBNA wrote:
- I think it was an excellent plan, but it had no room
- for mistakes, and a lot of them were made.

Expect for the paratroopers who got hung out to dry fending of German armor with light infantry weapons. It was probably not the best plan from their point of view.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:48 PM
it was a great plan without the SS troops there.
but with SS troops , the plan was crap.
it was just a waste of human lifes.




http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 08:59 PM
sandbag_69 wrote:
- In my opinion it was a daring attempt to get across
- the Rhine quickly, cut off the Rhur and end the War
- by Christmas.

Ok.


- I believe it only failed due to bad intelligence
- about the forces around the Arnhem area and by
- dropping the troops at Osterbeck to far from the
- objective and not because it was a bridge to far.

"I think it was an excellent plan, but it had no room for mistakes, and a lot of them were made."

I have to agree with this on everything except for the excellent idea. Like the first guy said, it was daring, and so needed to have some room for mistakes. The fact that it did not makes it a crap plan IMO.

- I also think it was a daring plan that had it worked
- would have hailed Monty as one of the greatest
- Generals in history and almost certainly the best
- US/UK Allied General bar none instead of the figure
- of contempt that some people believe.

Sure, but it didn't.

- What other plan do you think may have brought the
- war closer to finishing than Operation Market
- Garden?

Not having Market Garden in the first place. Used up resources and manpower that could have been used to help generals that DID succeed, like Patton.



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XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 09:05 PM
US_8th_Dosiere wrote:
-
-
-- What other plan do you think may have brought the
-- war closer to finishing than Operation Market
-- Garden?
-
- Not having Market Garden in the first place. Used
- up resources and manpower that could have been used
- to help generals that DID succeed, like Patton.
-
- Are you saying Patton was the better General? If so why? Also name a major battle he won or planned that changed the course of the war?
-
-
-

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 09:32 PM
Oh goodie another Patton versus Monty debate. The points of view will have nothing to do at all with the respective defenders pointing out that one or the other or both were insufferable boobs.

Having Eisenhower ride herd on those glory hounding divas from both the UK and the USA was the singlemost important ground decision on the western front. Bomber Command and the USAAF continuing to bludgeon Germany probably had a more decisive impact on the both fronts of the European war than any "brilliant" ground plan following D-Day. Given that the war was largely one of attrition, any ground strategy that kept a generally eastern direction would've proven adequate, no brilliance required.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 10:44 PM
This question hits a raw nerve with me. As I see it Market-Garden was a terrible plan executed badly. It should never have been allowed to take place. The more I think about it the madder I get, so I'll stop there. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif
KickinMule

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:24 PM
Monty was so pre-occupied with his Market-Garden he gave up a chance to have Antwerp as a supply port.

It would take another 6 weeks to secure the Westerschelde. He gave the Germans a chance to re-inforce Walcheren deniging(sp??) the use of the Westerschelde to shipping. So instead of having a short supply line, the duece and halfs had to make a 800 to 1000km round trip.

Ike is also has to foot part of the blame.


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:28 PM
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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:29 PM
nothing poncy about red berets.



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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

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She turned me into a newt, but I got better.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:35 PM
KickinMule wrote:
- This question hits a raw nerve with me. As I see it
- Market-Garden was a terrible plan executed badly. It
- should never have been allowed to take place. The
- more I think about it the madder I get, so I'll stop
- there.

What was terrible about the plan? I agree it was badly executed at Arnhem by dropping the Red Devils on the SS divisions due to intelligence not being acted on in that area.

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:39 PM
MiloMorai wrote:
- Monty was so pre-occupied with his Market-Garden he
- gave up a chance to have Antwerp as a supply port.
-
- It would take another 6 weeks to secure the
- Westerschelde. He gave the Germans a chance to
- re-inforce Walcheren deniging(sp??) the use of the
- Westerschelde to shipping. So instead of having a
- short supply line, the duece and halfs had to make a
- 800 to 1000km round trip.
-
- Ike is also has to foot part of the blame.
-
-
Good point - Antwerp and the Westerschelde should have been secured much earlier. The supply lines would have been much shorter and perhaps a northern advance would have been more likely to have succeded in a rapid advance into Germany than what actually happened

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:40 PM
"was it worth the attempt?"

It was not worth the attempt, and that's not hindsight. General Sosabowski knew it was doomed as soon as he learned its details.
-----------------------------------------------------------
He was justifiably appalled by the plan for Operation Comet, but certainly gained no friends when he requested that Urquhart put his orders in writing so that he would not be held responsible for the disaster that would surely follow. He told Browning that "This mission cannot possibly succeed", and felt it would be suicide to attempt it using only the 1st Airborne and the Poles. His objections to the plan were supported by other officers, notably Brigadier Hackett. He and Sosabowski knew that the Germans could react very violently if you threatened a delicate area, and they were convinced that Comet was too tall a task for a single airborne division and that it would result in a complete disaster.
-----------------------------------------------------------

This can be read in Ryan's book, and is also here:

http://www.arnhemarchive.org/stanislaw_sosabowski.htm

Case closed /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif



S!

SKULLS_LZ

SKULLS Squadron VF-98
"We Service What We Smell"

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:53 PM
It is interesting that Monty drove Patton crazy by being too conservative and cautious. Maybe Monty was worried that maybe Patton was right and overcompensated. This mistake was still tiny compared to the decision to delay the delivery of the Pershing tank and rely on the concept of "tank destroyer squads". If we had traded 2,000 of our Shermans for 200 Pershings, say in August '44, the war would have ended months earlier, saving thousands of allied casualties.

Check out the "observations" section regarding US WWII armored strategy. Basically, both Monty and Patton were smoking crack when they decided they didn't need the Pershing:
http://www.dupuyinstitute.org/pdf/mwa-2lightarmor.pdf

US_8th_Dosiere wrote:
-
-
-- What other plan do you think may have brought the
-- war closer to finishing than Operation Market
-- Garden?
-
- Not having Market Garden in the first place. Used
- up resources and manpower that could have been used
- to help generals that DID succeed, like Patton.
-
- Are you saying Patton was the better General? If so why? Also name a major battle he won or planned that changed the course of the war?
-

<center>Harrier-ProudBirds-VFW<center>

<center><marquee><FONT COLOR="RED"><FONT SIZE="+1">"The ProudBirds..Fly
High
and Proud..~S~"<FONT SIZE> </marquee> <center>

XyZspineZyX
09-30-2003, 11:59 PM
Harrier-PBNA wrote:
If we had traded 2,000 of our
- Shermans for 200 Pershings, say in August '44, the
- war would have ended months earlier, saving
- thousands of allied casualties.

Harrier,

I think you are really overstating the impact of the M24. Even if they had been available they would still have been vunerable to all the German AT weapons especially in the Normandy hedgerows.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:09 AM
faustnik wrote:

-
- I think you are really overstating the impact of the
- M24. Even if they had been available they would
- still have been vunerable to all the German AT
- weapons especially in the Normandy hedgerows.
-
-

Typo faustnik?

The M-24 Chaffee was a 'light' tank. The Pershing was the M-26 'heavy' tank.


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:28 AM
SKULLS_LZ wrote:
- "was it worth the attempt?"
-
- It was not worth the attempt, and that's not
- hindsight. General Sosabowski knew it was doomed as
- soon as he learned its details.
------------------------------------------------------------
- He was justifiably appalled by the plan for
- Operation Comet, but certainly gained no friends
- when he requested that Urquhart put his orders in
- writing so that he would not be held responsible for
- the disaster that would surely follow. He told
- Browning that "This mission cannot possibly
- succeed", and felt it would be suicide to attempt it
- using only the 1st Airborne and the Poles. His
- objections to the plan were supported by other
- officers, notably Brigadier Hackett. He and
- Sosabowski knew that the Germans could react very
- violently if you threatened a delicate area, and
- they were convinced that Comet was too tall a task
- for a single airborne division and that it would
- result in a complete disaster.
------------------------------------------------------------
-
Perhaps if the landing was made closer to the bridge then it may have succeded as the Paras could have held the town and bridge maybe just long enough for 30Corp to advance to Arnhem to relieve them.
I read somewhere that if the landing had been made to the south of the bridge around an area where a ferry was, they may have captured the bridge and town by getting the whole division across.

Here is a good Website for info on the battle

http://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Market_Garden#The_Plan

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:40 AM
Yes Milo, thanks. I meant the M-26 Pershing. My point is any AFV the allies could put in the field would have been vulnerable to German AT weapons, which were the best of the time. Driving any tanks through the hedgerows of Normandy meant exposure to "Faustniks" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif with their dreaded panzerfausts and panzershreks. Producing MORE tanks was the right choice in that case.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 12:54 AM
What was the better Allied tank the US M26 Pershing or British Centurion Mark II.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:03 AM
No.

The plan was doomed the day it was drawn up. With the various para units strung along the axis of advance, there was no room for error and the timetable was overly critical.

To expect XXX Corps to make the 64 or so miles (?) on the available narrow roads was insane. (Ask a German 2nd Panzer veteran what they went through in the Bulge). That's asking for over 20 miles a day.

My heart goes out to the British 1st Airborne. Heroes is an overused word, but these guys were the real deal.

Salute British 1st.



(oh and give me a break about the tank talk. If 1,500 Tiger Is had no real effect on the outcome, 200 Pershings aren't going to do much either. The Pershings that made it to Europe were really for battlefield testing purposes. Tank vs Tank combat in WW2 was not as common as many think. Kursk was last great tank shootout and the Jerries got their booties waxed.)



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:26 AM
GR142_Astro wrote:
- No.
-
- The plan was doomed the day it was drawn up. With
- the various para units strung along the axis of
- advance, there was no room for error and the
- timetable was overly critical.
-
- To expect XXX Corps to make the 64 or so miles (?)
- on the available narrow roads was insane. (Ask a
- German 2nd Panzer veteran what they went through in
- the Bulge). That's asking for over 20 miles a day.
-
Didn't the Germans manage succesful paradrops in 1940 in Norway and Low Countries and the Brandenburgs during Barbarossa

- My heart goes out to the British 1st Airborne.
- Heroes is an overused word, but these guys were the
- real deal.
-
- Salute British 1st.
-
All soldiers in combat are heroes, after playing medal of honor i'd cack myself under fire.
-
- (oh and give me a break about the tank talk. If
- 1,500 Tiger Is had no real effect on the outcome,
- 200 Pershings aren't going to do much either. The
- Pershings that made it to Europe were really for
- battlefield testing purposes. Tank vs Tank combat in
- WW2 was not as common as many think. Kursk was last
- great tank shootout and the Jerries got their
- booties waxed.)
-
-
Kursk may have been last big tank battle but I am sure there were numerous tank v Tank engagements in Normandy and elsewhere. Wasn't Operation Goodwood halted by German panzers.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:30 AM
GR142_Astro wrote:

-
- (oh and give me a break about the tank talk. If
- 1,500 Tiger Is had no real effect on the outcome,
- 200 Pershings aren't going to do much either. The
- Pershings that made it to Europe were really for
- battlefield testing purposes. Tank vs Tank combat in
- WW2 was not as common as many think. Kursk was last
- great tank shootout and the Jerries got their
- booties waxed.)
-

What battle had 1500 Tigers in it?

Yes the Germans got their booties waxed, if you say, so but it was the Russian AT guns that did most of the 'damage'.


http://www.stenbergaa.com/stenberg/west-battleline.jpg



"Only a dead 'chamber pot' is a good 'chamber pot'!"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:50 AM
Could it of worked? Who can really say? But having two SS Panzer divisions there was of no help what so ever.

Anyone remember the game Highway to the Reich? The magazine Fire and Movement did a replay of the game....

If I remember, the guy who played XXX Corps said something like.."I have to go from here all the way to there?!?"

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 02:39 AM
My opinion:

Market Garden is the name of the outragous militray plan that set the bar for how far you can go and fail. Even if Market Garden had been cancelled, some other operation would have gone badly and earned the title.

Was it worth the attempt? I don't think so. Would I have given that order(if I were in charge), no. Do any of us have all of the facts? Nope.

The whole event is an interesting lesson in warfare, and sadly those lessons cost far too much. Hopefully that lesson has been learned, and we won't see another disaster like that. The down side of the lesson is that Market Garden is now probably going to remain one of the worst modern military operations in history, and something that will be branded to the British and other Axis powers forever.

-Legodragonxp

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:30 AM
MiloMorai wrote:
-

- What battle had 1500 Tigers in it?
-

None. The (rough) number refers to the total production of Tiger Is in WW2, in which the fabled tank did not turn the tide.

Kursk was a turning point in the war, and yes the Germans were defeated there. The Tiger Is, plus the new Panther D and Ferdinands (later Elefant) had their superior gun advantage negated when Soviet forces "mixed it up" at close range. A T34/76 does just fine alongside a Tiger at 50 yards.

And as always Milo you are correct, the hidden AT guns were devastating. Can't help but think the good ole' Sturmoviks did a bit of damage themselves.



"We will welcome them with bullets and shoes."

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 05:43 AM
Boandlgramer wrote:
- it was a great plan without the SS troops there.
- but with SS troops , the plan was crap.
- it was just a waste of human lifes.
-
-
-


AHH yes the SS Hitlers goon squad.
Not a very affetive combat force IMO.
However they were very good at killing inocent women & children.

As for Market garden ...all would have been fine had they dropped the toops on target.

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:26 AM
Copperhead310th wrote:

-
- AHH yes the SS Hitlers goon squad.
- Not a very affetive combat force IMO.

if you like it , to call the SS troops goon squad , fine for me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . its your " IMO " .




http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:37 AM
Its not red berret,its maroon berret.

What manner of men are those who wear the Maroon Beret

They are firstly all volunteers and are toughened by hard

physical training. As a result they have that infectous

optimism and that offensive eagerness which comes from

physical well being. They have jumped from the air and by

so doing have conquered fear.

There duty lies in the van of battle. They are proud of

this honor and have never failed in any task. They have the

highest standards in all things whether it be skill in

battle or smartness in exertion of all peace time duties.

They have shown themselves to be tenacios in defence as

they are courageous in the attack. They are in fact Men

apart every man an Emperor.

All of these factors which make for success in battle the

spirit of the worrior is most decisive. That spirit will be

found in full measure in the Men who wear the Maroon Berret.


Montgomery of El Alamein




clint-ruin wrote:
- If only they'd had more poncy red berets!
-
- <img
- src="http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/worker_p
- arasite.jpg" width=315 height=240 alt=""
- align="middle">
-
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- topic.asp?name=us_il2sturmovik_gd&id=yzbcj">this
- thread.</a>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:46 AM
Boandlgramer wrote:
-
- Copperhead310th wrote:
-
--
-- AHH yes the SS Hitlers goon squad.
-- Not a very affetive combat force IMO.
-
- if you like it , to call the SS troops goon squad ,
- fine for me /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif . its your " IMO " .


Not biteing Boandlgramer?
/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Wrong bait i guess.
gee that fish just threw the hook compleatly/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

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XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 06:54 AM
There is another factor which doomed this operation, besides the far-flung airborne units. And this alone should have scrapped the plan--the entire operation depended on a single, undefendable and very long road. There were no alternative routes besides what came to be known as Hell's Highway. It was an open invitation to delaying ambushes.

Another piece of intelligence overlooked was the Luftwaffe. The location of this attack allowed even the decimated Luftwaffe to have partial air superiority.

The only other operation as complex as Market Garden was D-Day, but a cross-channel invasion had to be complex. Attacking Germany did not need to be complex, so why set yourself with a complex plan that gave all the advantages to the defenders? Everything had to go exactly right for the allies, but the Germans could afford to fail on all but one bridge.

It was a tragic mistake, but I understand the motivation to try to end the war as early as possible.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 07:00 AM
- Not biteing Boandlgramer?
- /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif Wrong bait i guess.
- gee that fish just threw the hook compleatly/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
-

I'll take a nible at your bait Copperhead310th.

The SS unit camped out at Arnhem were not your SS goon squad type troops. Your misstakenly refering to the Ienzatsgruppen SS units that worked the death camps.

SS units like the,Totenkupf,Das Reick,Wiking,and others were your combat fighting units. Sure they did there fair share of dastardly deeds,but so too did the Wermacht in Russia.

SS troops were probibly some of the best troops in the second world war and fanachs as well. Not to metion there were Dutch Norwigen Muslim and even Indian SS units.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:46 AM
General montgomery was an absolute clown , a conservative fool with too many WWI traits .After the initial attempted break out of Normandy Churchill and all of the british chiefs of staff wanted to sack the blighter but churchill was persuaded otherwise after arriving in france .To attack along such a narrow front with the allies overwhelming air superiority and material along a load of bridges was stupin and designed by monty for his ego .The british army establishmnet is just too conservative thats why they never produced any really notable land commanders in the european theatre of war , maybe O'Connor .

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 09:58 AM
johnnyJohnson_ wrote:
- General montgomery was an absolute clown , a
- conservative fool with too many WWI traits .After
- the initial attempted break out of Normandy
- Churchill and all of the british chiefs of staff
- wanted to sack the blighter but churchill was
- persuaded otherwise after arriving in france .To
- attack along such a narrow front with the allies
- overwhelming air superiority and material along a
- load of bridges was stupin and designed by monty for
- his ego .The british army establishmnet is just too
- conservative thats why they never produced any
- really notable land commanders in the european
- theatre of war , maybe O'Connor .
-

Aha, well, to attack along a narrow front is exactly WWII style, while an attack along a broad front would be WWI - to keep things as black'n'white as your post. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

cheers/slush



http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 10:04 AM
Of course it's difficult to argue with history, but IMHO the plan was good and daring given the intelligence information available.

The Allies reached most of their objectives and forced two major river lines, that could have offered strong defensive positions for the Germans. So in that respect Operation Market Garden shortened the war.

Another thing is that the Allied strategy for Europe, again: IMHO, was severely hampered by inter-Allied quarrels. The British and Canadian forces along the left flank could, and should have, driven right into the Ruhr district, had they had the necessary supplies. But because the US, that contributed most of the forces, had to play a major role, scarce ressources were diverted to the right flank for attacks through very unfavourable terrain with wide-ranging (and not warwinning) objectives.

cheers/slush

http://dk.groups.yahoo.com/group/aktivitetsdage/files/Eurotrolls.gif

You can't handle the truth!
Col. Jessep

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 11:12 AM
copperhead, , it is hard enough for me to understand english , but your " ENGLISH " is incomprehensibly /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

what the hell means " biteing " ?

but i guess you are trying to be funny /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif ( again )


http://www.bayern.de/Layout/wappen.gif

Bavaria is one of the oldest European states.
It dates back to about 500 A.D., when the Roman Empire was overcome by the onslaught of Germanic tribes. According to a widespread theory, the Bavarian tribe had descended from the Romans who remained in the country, the original Celtic population and the Germanic invaders.

Bavarian History : http://www.bayern.de/Bayern/Information/geschichteE.html#kap0

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 11:16 AM
Monty was at his best when he did the unimaginative.

<center>http://www.btinternet.com/~lenazavaroni/images/tva_01a.jpg

<font size="+4">What a fox!</font></center>

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 01:37 PM
johnnyJohnson_ wrote:
- General montgomery was an absolute clown

He wasn't bad, nor was he brilliant.

- conservative fool with too many WWI traits

Actually the reverse was his problem. Haunted
by the killing fields of WW1 he was perhaps
too conservative in committing troops if they
were at risk. This seemed to haunt him, and
Market Garden was partly to show that he could
be bold.

- the initial attempted break out of Normandy
- Churchill and all of the british chiefs of staff
- wanted to sack the blighter but churchill was
- persuaded otherwise after arriving in france

Partly because Alamein was a much needed morale
boost in 1942, and so a debt of gratitude was felt.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 03:25 PM
You have said it right. The plan was good but it failed because of the bad intelligence data.

One has to know that while Abwehr had efficient spy cell in Cairo, Rommel was successful in North Africa. Once British intelligence found the cell and caught German spies, Montgomery started to win battles.

In general, the WWII was won largely due to the great efficiency of British secret services.

Best,
Kursula

Suggested reading:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/1973962.stm

Dusko Popov, probably the most valuable British spy in WWII was a Serb from Dubrovnik. He was a raw model for Ian Fleming's James Bond.

XyZspineZyX
10-01-2003, 03:36 PM
There are a lot of myth on Market Garden.

Before you cast judgement, its important to take a look at the German side of that particular battle. I can fully recommend:

IT NEVER SNOWS IN SEPTEMBER
The German View of MARKET-GARDEN and the Battle of Arnhem, September 1944.
Robert J. Kershaw

Kershaw himself is a serving officer (Brit. Parachute Regt.) and has followed a German Staff course at the F├╝hrungsakademie. A combination which made him well suited for this work.

It is interesting that in the west most attention goes to "intel errors", "betrayal" and "bad luck" and little to the almost miraculous recovery of the German forces engaged, most of which had only just escaped the onslaught in France.

An objective writer and a great book.

Ruy "SPADES" Horta
http://www.xs4all.nl/~rhorta
-----------------------------
Il-2 - VEF JG 77
-----------------------------
'95-02 - WB Jagdgeschwader 53
'99-00 - DoA Jagdstaffel 18
-----------------------------
The rest is history...

http:\\www.xs4all.nl\~rhorta\brother.jpg