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View Full Version : patch 4.11 AI can't see through clouds?



Newflyer
07-13-2012, 01:40 AM
I saw a comment from a guy somewhere that patch 4.11 changed AI so they can't see through clouds, and also made it to where they only have a limited line of sight and can't see behind them or below them. I looked everywhere and I couldn't find a confirmation of this in the list of patch changed so I was wondering if its true or false?

Since patch 4.11 I definitley seem to surprise the A.I more often then I used to and I find it easier to dogfight them but I can't tell if that's just me becoming a better dogfighter or what :P

berg417448
07-13-2012, 02:16 AM
I saw a comment from a guy somewhere that patch 4.11 changed AI so they can't see through clouds, and also made it to where they only have a limited line of sight and can't see behind them or below them. I looked everywhere and I couldn't find a confirmation of this in the list of patch changed so I was wondering if its true or false?

Since patch 4.11 I definitley seem to surprise the A.I more often then I used to and I find it easier to dogfight them but I can't tell if that's just me becoming a better dogfighter or what :P


I read that too but I have not experienced it at all. In fact, to me, the AI now seem to have a much better situation awareness than before with respect to where your gun sight is pointed. More than once I've had them roll out of the way of a low 6 o'clock shot which should have been impossible for them to see.

Aviar
07-13-2012, 02:54 AM
I saw a comment from a guy somewhere that patch 4.11 changed AI so they can't see through clouds, and also made it to where they only have a limited line of sight and can't see behind them or below them. I looked everywhere and I couldn't find a confirmation of this in the list of patch changed so I was wondering if its true or false?

Since patch 4.11 I definitley seem to surprise the A.I more often then I used to and I find it easier to dogfight them but I can't tell if that's just me becoming a better dogfighter or what :P

Yes, everything you mentioned, and more, is true. You can find a list of AI improvements on pages 4, 5 & 6 of the 4.11 Guide.

Aviar

Tully__
07-13-2012, 02:16 PM
I read that too but I have not experienced it at all. In fact, to me, the AI now seem to have a much better situation awareness than before with respect to where your gun sight is pointed. More than once I've had them roll out of the way of a low 6 o'clock shot which should have been impossible for them to see.
You may find that their wingman is calling the break on the radio, just like human pilots do in multiplayer.

Sillius_Sodus
07-13-2012, 07:45 PM
You will face some crummy ai too. Some will not maneuver at all or very poorly, will stall/spin and/or fly into the ground or bail out as soon as the shooting starts. On the downside, the buggers can now use deflection when they shoot :p

berg417448
07-13-2012, 09:00 PM
You may find that their wingman is calling the break on the radio, just like human pilots do in multiplayer.

Nice thought, but in more than one case there was no wingman to relay anything. It has happened so often that I cannot help but be convinced that the AI has been enhanced in this respect.

The addition of the stall/spin evasion tactic is clever but I have yet to experience the AI who do nothing or bail at the firing of the first shot.

I also still find it very difficult to kill a rear AI gunner but I have noticed that their return fire seems less sniper like than before.

thefruitbat
07-13-2012, 09:34 PM
You've just been unlucky, the ai now break and check there six from time to time, especially if there on there own.

I've bounced the ai loads of times since 4.11, especially if you set up to come out of the sun, they no longer automatically sense you just as you get to your convergence range.

Sometimes a whole flight will just buzz on by because they haven't spotted you, just like humans!

Hiding in clouds has saved me several times to.

Newflyer
07-14-2012, 04:26 PM
Thanks for the info guys ^_^ it sure is nice not fighting superhuman AI that auto senses where I am at all times

Are AI planes affected by blackouts/redouts at all and stalls/spins? I know their engine's don't overheat..

thefruitbat
07-14-2012, 05:10 PM
I know their engine's don't overheat..

you do, do you........

you should read the 4.11 pdf, and you will find that this is no longer the case in 4.11.



AI improvements
AI routines in 4.11 have been modified extensively in order to introduce several limitations
that human pilot would experience. Below is a list of things player can expect to see in 4.11:
Various new AI maneuvers have been added. Number of maneuvers is increased by 25%.
AI planes will no longer detect enemy planes automatically inside certain radius. Position and
size of enemy plane is the main factor here. Bigger plane will obviously produce a bigger and
more visible "dot" and it will be more visible to AI.
AI skill will generally determine how well AI can spot targets. Also every gunner on board will
contribute to enemy spotting by covering their own sectors.
Generally pilots will keep looking more forwards than backwards. Occasionally fighters execute
fishtail maneuver to get better view behind. Planes will be less visible against dark background
like land, but more visible against brighter background like sky and clouds.
Clouds & land mass blocks AI's ability to see other planes behind them. For example it is
possible to evade attacking AI plane by hiding in clouds. AI planes will also try to hide in clouds
in certain conditions.
AI's own plane will block their line of sight. This is calculated from the plane's collision model.
For example basically all planes cannot see directly below them, unless the plane has
ventral/bottom gunner that can cover the underside. For example plane like Blenheim has
blind spot rear & behind since it has no tail/bottom gunner. Plane like B-17 with bottom/rear
gunners cannot be surprised from rear & behind like Blenheim (during daylight).
Occasionally fighters will execute roll maneuvers to get a look directly below them.
When fighter is pulling positive G's to get a lead shot and target goes invisible under nose, AI
will not see the target. Instead of aiming at the actual target, AI is shooting at estimated
target which position is extrapolated based on the last real observations. Much like human
brain would do.
AI pilot's ground collision detection is improved and now they will detect ground obstacles in
front of them better. Previously AI always crashed into certain kind of hill/mountain which has
too steep slope.
Environment factors such as darkness affects how well planes can be seen. AI is blind against
attack from sun and planes show up better as silhouette against moon. Planes are spotted
more easier if they emit smoke, fire, condensation trail or have lights on or are illuminated by
searchlight.
Also ships & ground AAA and aircraft gunners have the same clouds/ground/environment
restrictions as AI pilots.
AI gunners check before shooting that there is no friendly planes in front/behind their enemy
target.
AI gunners don't keep shooting while the gun is turning towards target and the target is
nowhere near when the bullets would go. So gunners will no longer waste ammo for stupid
shots.
Gunners will be less accurate shooting targets that move fast. In other words target that
forces the gunners to turn guns fast is less likely to get hit.
Gunners that experience too much positive or negative G's cannot fire at all.
AI plane's engine will overheat forcing AI to reduce throttle and open radiators.
AI planes respect diving limits of their planes.
Changes have been made in AI deflection shooting. AI calculate deflection better but it is still
not perfect. AI's ability to chose correct deflection and to hold steady aim vary with the skill. AI
Aces shooting ability is now at human aces level and if they get into your close six you will be
in trouble.
AI flights doesn't go into attack as soon as they spot the enemy anymore. Depending on the
situation AI might try to avoid fight or try to improve their position before commencing the
attack.
AI skills are now divided internally into sub-skills and thus provide finer distribution of skill.
Aces are still better than Veterans and Averages are better than Rookies but not all AI pilots
with the same skill are the same. Some fly better, some shoot better. Some are braver and
some see better. This makes their behavior less predictable.
In addition to the maneuvers, AI fighter defense is completely reworked, no more constant
rolls. AI will perform diverse maneuvers and provide bigger challenge to the player.
AI will make mistake too. They will stall and spin occasionally, panic and “freeze” and
sometimes they will even bail out before you fire a single bullet at them.
Note
If AI planes in player’s own flight have not noticed the enemy planes, player has possibility to
“point out” the enemy presence to the friendly AI planes by padlocking enemy plane so that it
is visible at roughly center of the screen (15 deg. cone). This works even if the padlock is not
enabled. Also the commands attack all/bombers/fighters has the same function built in as the
padlock key. So issuing “attack fighters” command to your wingman would fail if your wingman
has not seen the enemy and you give the command while you don’t see the enemy. Giving the
command when you see the enemy at the center of your screen (in cockpit) gives your
wingman the direction of the enemy and wingman can attack it. This prevents abusing the
attack commands like a radar.
The AI development is a continuous process we plan to refine further for 4.12. We would like
to ask you to report any odd AI behavior we may have not noticed during our beta testing. It
was not possible for us to test all AI situations / routines.
Checks concerning clouds are not working on dedicated server. DS doesn't know anything
about clouds and was never designed to have AI planes, but we will try to change this later.

Sillius_Sodus
07-14-2012, 05:12 PM
Beat me to it fruitbat!;)

thefruitbat
07-14-2012, 05:20 PM
Beat me to it fruitbat!;)

lol:cool:

horseback
07-28-2012, 07:58 PM
The seeing through the clouds thing is true; I have ducked into the clouds to hide several times since installing 4.11.1 and have yet to be tagged (at least not until I came out at a predictable location). In daylight, the gunners on bombers and attack planes are considerably more realistically limited as well, a change I have waited for for 10 years:cool:. However, I find that once you've fired your guns on a dark night mission, they have entirely too clear an idea of where you are and where you are going even if you abruptly change directions afterwards (firing a two second burst and sharply sheering off still seems to get your fuel tank perforated at 2-300m by Rookie gunners about half the time). Since night missions are rare, I think I can live with that as is.

On the minus side, while I in principle applaud awarding ai pilots the ability to make deflection shots, I find myself getting whacked way too often on 90 degree deflection shots at ranges in excess of 400m, even when I see the set-up coming and quickly change directions (up, down and/or radically tighten the turn). What really chafes is when I go back into the full mission builder and find out that my executioner is rated Average or Rookie, and realize that Average or Rookie ai 'bot has performed the same level of long range, high deflection shooting on my aircraft in two or three consecutive replays of that mission in a row:mad:. That feels a bit as though the mission has assigned the Player a specific executioner that he must eliminate to survive the mission (and it doesn't help that the little SOB often turns up after you've smoked a couple of his buddies and are now running a hot engine and low on ammo).

That said, the majority of the enemy ai routines I've encountered so far are pretty good, and seem to vary according to type, which is a good thing. I've certainly seen a number of ai stalling out at appropriate moments (including my wingman, dammit) and often recovering in a convenient location for me, although I'd occasionally like credit for the kill when I have flown an opponent into the ground after a sporadic peppering with my LMGs.

Generally, I'm very happy with the AI changes. Bravo, TD!

cheers

horseback