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Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 08:56 PM
Just curious! I personally know more females that like the games than males, which might seem weird, but maybe it's just got a universal appeal.

MasterSimaYi
07-05-2012, 08:58 PM
I don't know any females that like Assassin's Creed; then again, I don't think I know many females that like games in general (or they just don't make it public). I think at least here, it's more appreciated by men.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 08:58 PM
Both. AC III is an excellent example.
Connor and Aveline.
It has a strong showing of both, in terms of audience?
I know men and girls that like it, so yeah.

Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 09:07 PM
I don't know any females that like Assassin's Creed; then again, I don't think I know many females that like games in general (or they just don't make it public). I think at least here, it's more appreciated by men.

Most prefer not to make their gender public because of the stigma that follows, especially in things like COD. But AC has one of the biggest female fanbases I've seen in game, so maybe something about the story is widely appealing.
Or just Ezio, trololol.

Turul.
07-05-2012, 09:10 PM
male, all the protaganists are

all is fair though. many women still enjoy it, ad the majority of the market are males so...

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 09:12 PM
...Did you forget about Liberation?
And the strong display of females. Caterina and Maria as an example.
....Stigma follows? didn't we get over this stupidity 20 years ago?

RatonhnhakeFan
07-05-2012, 09:12 PM
Both. AC III is an excellent example.
Connor and Aveline.
It has a strong showing of both, in terms of audience?
I know men and girls that like it, so yeah.

As much as I'm happy about Aveline, let's not pretend it's equal lol. Aveline stars in a handheld spin-off. It's a guy, yet again, for the third time, that is the star of the main game in the franchise. At least they (seemingly) got rid of that womanizing cliche. We've had enough of that with Ezio. The media asked Ubisoft 'why no female Assassin in AC3?" and they came up with some nonsense how she wouldn't blend. Right before showing a guy in white hood during 18th century colonial period. Conclusion: of course it's geared towards men and the marketing department obviously has its hands in deciding what's "acceptable" for the assassin pratagonist in main games.

SixKeys
07-05-2012, 09:12 PM
I don't know any females that like Assassin's Creed; then again, I don't think I know many females that like games in general (or they just don't make it public). I think at least here, it's more appreciated by men.

Just google"Assassin's Creed yaoi". You'd be surprised at the number of female AC fans you'll find.

Most games in general are geared towards males because of the clichéd perception that only teenage boys like video games. Attitudes are slowly changing, though. I think the introduction of Aveline is a step forward.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 09:13 PM
While yeah, more males like AC, but AC does have a good female following.

Sushiglutton
07-05-2012, 09:14 PM
I would be ready to bet any amount that more men than women plays AC. But I don't see why women wouldn't enjoy it. I recently replayed Brotherhood and there are several women playing major parts in that game. Also Ezio is a womanizer ;).

LadyGahan2010
07-05-2012, 09:17 PM
I think you greatly underestimate the numbers of females playing AC series. I'd like to point out that many of you might have the prejudice that women do not use internet as often as men or do not play video games as much as men. Considering how much the numbers of internet and all geeky things users switched (men being great majority about 10 years ago), I would assume that there is at least 50-50 ratio, men to women, playing video games. Let's add the simple fact that AC is not based on mindless shooting and bloody carnage and we might even have more women playing AC than men. Yes, it is my personal opinion, not scientifically checked or proved.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 09:18 PM
More women play video games than kids.
FACT.

MasterSimaYi
07-05-2012, 09:20 PM
Most prefer not to make their gender public because of the stigma that follows, especially in things like COD. But AC has one of the biggest female fanbases I've seen in game, so maybe something about the story is widely appealing.
Or just Ezio, trololol.

I was talking about people that I know in real life, not via the internet. I know several girls that like Assassin's Creed, but they are easily overshadowed by the amount of males.

SixKeys
07-05-2012, 09:20 PM
Corey May has a pretty good grasp on writing strong female characters. ACB and ACR were somewhat lacking. Caterina Sforza was turned into a damsel-in-distress, Rosa was gone. Claudia became a member of the brotherhood but that was the last we ever saw of her. Cristina was pretty bland and I never bought the idea of her being Ezio's One True Love. And don't even get me started on Sofia. I hope we'll see some good, memorable female characters in AC3 now that Corey's back.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 09:23 PM
Caterina slammed Lucrezia into a cell door :P

Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 09:24 PM
....Stigma follows? didn't we get over this stupidity 20 years ago?

Oh man, check out those websites like 'Not In The Kitchen Anymore', and 'Fat, Ugly or ****ty'. People say terrible things once they know there's a chick on their team.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 09:25 PM
Sad really. And kitchen jokes are getting really, REALLY old.

Turul.
07-05-2012, 09:25 PM
...Did you forget about Liberation?
And the strong display of females. Caterina and Maria as an example.
....Stigma follows? didn't we get over this stupidity 20 years ago?

lol i did forget stigma follows? what?

are you calling me stupid?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 09:27 PM
...Where did I address you? Sima said that stigma follows, and I simply said I think we got over that stupidity 20 years ago.

MasterSimaYi
07-05-2012, 09:57 PM
...Where did I address you? Sima said that stigma follows, and I simply said I think we got over that stupidity 20 years ago.

What did I do now? :(

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 09:58 PM
You did nothing xD I simply said the idea of stigma from playing video games is something I think we went over as a society. Or atleast I hope so.

Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 10:05 PM
And I forgot to mention the overwhelming number of female AC fans on Tumblr, even if it is mostly slash.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 10:05 PM
...Am I the only one who dosen't use Tumblr?

Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 10:06 PM
...Am I the only one who dosen't use Tumblr?

No, you're not. Like I said, it's a scary place XD

RatonhnhakeFan
07-05-2012, 10:20 PM
And I forgot to mention the overwhelming number of female AC fans on Tumblr, even if it is mostly slash.Well, we DO need a gay assassin finally too. And a female assassin in the main game (not just handheld spin-off).

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 10:21 PM
A gay assassin will not work. I have nothing against them, but the public still did not get over the ''homosexuals are evil!'' thing

oliacr
07-05-2012, 10:21 PM
men

MasterSimaYi
07-05-2012, 10:30 PM
A gay assassin will not work. I have nothing against them, but the public still did not get over the ''homosexuals are evil!'' thing

I'm sure they only recently found out that "homosexuals are gay," so I think it will take some time for those people to adapt to that revelation. Not to mention that a homosexual Assassin, well, likely doesn't have offspring, and thus his memories couldn't be relived.

...How did this come up anyways?

RatonhnhakeFan
07-05-2012, 10:31 PM
A gay assassin will not work. I have nothing against them, but the public still did not get over the ''homosexuals are evil!'' thingWe're talking a franchise that quite openly criticizes religion and talks tons about freedom etc. I doubt people who play it and accept everything there's already in it would care if the main protagonist was gay.

But excuses like "gay assassin won't work because of public etc" are the same reason why we still don't have a female assassin in the main game. "Ohh a girl won't work 'cause guys don't want to play as weak chicks". Certainly we won't know till we try. Lara Croft surely proves that female characters ain't obstacles. And since we're talking Lara -> Angelina Jolie who played her can open big action movies on her name alone. Before that, Hollywood was also saying "ohh girls can't sell action movies".


I'm sure they only recently found out that "homosexuals are gay," so I think it will take some time for those people to adapt to that revelation. Not to mention that a homosexual Assassin, well, likely doesn't have offspring, and thus his memories couldn't be relived.With stuff like Memory Seals, the (Turin) Shroud, memory farming + DDS we don't need anyone to have children to have his/her memories preserved.



...How did this come up anyways?Slash/yaoi was being brought up.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 10:36 PM
Homosexuality is a different subject than a girl. Homosexuality being a very complex thing. It's not just public acceptance, but homophobic movements, religions *Be it AC has you beating the pope, and basically says religion is wrong, but touch homosexuality, BAN THE GAME!*

MasterSimaYi
07-05-2012, 10:41 PM
With stuff like Memory Seals, the (Turin) Shroud, memory farming + DDS we don't need anyone to have children to have his/her memories preserved.

None of those things allow the full exploration of a person's genetic memory like the Animus does, and it is highly unlikely that we will only relive specific memories as a character. It is not clear how the memories for the DDS are obtained, but it's likely they require genetic memory as well, and thus need to be passed on.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-05-2012, 10:41 PM
Homosexuality is a different subject than a girl. Homosexuality being a very complex thing. It's not just public acceptance, but homophobic movements, religions *Be it AC has you beating the pope, and basically says religion is wrong, but touch homosexuality, BAN THE GAME!*And? Bigots were complaining about gay kissing in Bully, about gay romances in Mass Effect and yet in the end it did absolutely nothing and the games were hits.


None of those things allow the full exploration of a person's genetic memory like the Animus doesSays who? If you can record memories onto Memory Seals, what's stopping you from recording all of it onto it? What's stopping the Shroud from stealing all memories of the person who touches it and then passing them onto another person?



It is not clear how the memories for the DDS are obtained, but it's likely they require genetic memory as well, and thus need to be passed on.If it's farmed from a descendant yeah. But then they don't need the descendant at all, if they did the entire project would be pointless, they would just have the descendant go into Animus. And we don't know how the farming goes but what's actually the most logical answer (base on real-world knowledge) is that they simply take a hair or skin sample and extract DNA from it? Every cell in human body has the full DNA sequence so every cell can be in theory used to relive memories from it in the DDS machine.

Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 10:41 PM
I would love a gay Assassin, but at some point he would have to have a child with a woman or the genetic line wouldn't continue, right?

JCearlyyears
07-05-2012, 10:42 PM
You could be gay in Fable.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 10:43 PM
I am not saying it would not be a hit, but just stir controversial things.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-05-2012, 10:49 PM
I am not saying it would not be a hit, but just stir controversial things.So? Controversy didn't affect Fable, Mass Effect, Bully or GTA's sales. Heck, GTA even had "Gay Tony" in the title of one of its DLCs lol


I would love a gay Assassin, but at some point he would have to have a child with a woman or the genetic line wouldn't continue, right?
He would just need to record his memories on the Memory Seals, or touch the Turin Shroud or another POE that has the capability of recording memories like the Seals or the Shroud.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 10:51 PM
Well, if people want too avoid the type of controversy we are having now over the British thing, I think homosexuality would cause the same thing.
I think it would be very interesting, but I am not sure Ubi would do it.

notafanboy
07-05-2012, 10:53 PM
I would love a gay Assassin, but at some point he would have to have a child with a woman or the genetic line wouldn't continue, right?

nah, thats kinda gay

MasterSimaYi
07-05-2012, 11:01 PM
Says who? If you can record memories onto Memory Seals, what's stopping you from recording all of it onto it? What's stopping the Shroud from stealing all memories of the person who touches it and then passing them onto another person?

Says I. The Memory Seals are only capable of recording certain memories, not the entire chain of genetic memory of an ancestor; and even if it did, the Animus would still be needed for the HUD to appear. And also consider that Altaïr could just have recorded his entire chain of genetic memory onto a Memory Seal, if that was possible. The ancestor could have a huge amount of Memory Seals, but that still causes the absence of the HUD and other Animus interfaces. If there is ever a protagonist who was affected by the Shroud, he still would not have control over the memories of past users of the Shroud; plus, it more places some form of consciousness of the past users in the artifact rather than copy all genetic memory onto it. And once again, the problem of the HUD. The Animus is the only plausible device for usage in the games. The named options can be used in novels and comics (like how The Fall has Daniel relive memories via the bleeding effect), but it doesn't work in the games in a gameplay aspect.


Well, if people want too avoid the type of controversy we are having now over the British thing, I think homosexuality would cause the same thing.
I think it would be very interesting, but I am not sure Ubi would do it.

Controversy is publicity. All the controversy around Assassin's Creed III has given it more publicity than any other game yet.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 11:02 PM
Says I. The Memory Seals are only capable of recording certain memories, not the entire chain of genetic memory of an ancestor; and even if it did, the Animus would still be needed for the HUD to appear. And also consider that Altaïr could just have recorded his entire chain of genetic memory onto a Memory Seal, if that was possible. The ancestor could have a huge amount of Memory Seals, but that still causes the absence of the HUD and other Animus interfaces. If there is ever a protagonist who was affected by the Shroud, he still would not have control over the memories of past users of the Shroud; plus, it more places some form of consciousness of the past users in the artifact rather than copy all genetic memory onto it. And once again, the problem of the HUD. The Animus is the only plausible device for usage in the games. The named options can be used in novels and comics (like how The Fall has Daniel relive memories via the bleeding effect), but it doesn't work in the games in a gameplay aspect.

When Sima says it, he is probably right.
Trust me, tried that today o_o

TheHumanTowel
07-05-2012, 11:03 PM
I would love a gay Assassin, but at some point he would have to have a child with a woman or the genetic line wouldn't continue, right?
Bisexual assassin. All the man-loving goodness without the end of your genetic line.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 11:04 PM
Bisexual would actually work well. And wont be as shunned by idiots out there.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-05-2012, 11:12 PM
Says I.Thanks. When you have an official source from a developer saying "you can't record it all on the Seals/Shroud", get back to us.



The Memory Seals are only capable of recording certain memories, not the entire chain of genetic memory of an ancestor; and even if it did, the Animus would still be needed for the HUD to appear. And also consider that Altaïr could just have recorded his entire chain of genetic memory onto a Memory Seal, if that was possible. The ancestor could have a huge amount of Memory Seals, but that still causes the absence of the HUD and other Animus interfaces. If there is ever a protagonist who was affected by the Shroud, he still would not have control over the memories of past users of the Shroud; plus, it more places some form of consciousness of the past users in the artifact rather than copy all genetic memory onto it. And once again, the problem of the HUD. The Animus is the only plausible device for usage in the games. The named options can be used in novels and comics (like how The Fall has Daniel relive memories via the bleeding effect), but it doesn't work in the games in a gameplay aspect.So we just need some ancestor to watch the Seals (just like Ezio did so we had the HUD in Altair levels in ACR). Or some ancestor to touch the Shroud after it was touched by the person whos memories we're interested in. Problem solved. This franchise has long bypassed the need for children with multiple solutions (and potentially introducing a major plothole depending on how exactly DDS memory farming is performed). I find it interesting that you're trying to deny it in a possibility that this allows to relive the memories a childless gay hero.

MasterSimaYi
07-05-2012, 11:22 PM
Thanks. When you have an official source from a developer saying "you can't record it all on the Seals/Shroud", get back to us.

So we just need some ancestor to watch the Seals (just like Ezio did so we had the HUD in Altair levels in ACR). Or some ancestor to touch the Shroud after it was touched by the person whos memories we're interested in. Problem solved. This franchise has long bypassed the need for children with multiple solutions (and potentially introducing a major plothole depending on how exactly DDS memory farming is performed). I find it interesting that you're trying to deny it in a possibility that this allows to relive the memories a childless gay hero.

Will do. I do doubt that your mere assumption on how those two objects work have precedence over putting one and one together, though.

That is indeed possible, but also seems completely pointless. It would introduce a completely new ancestor with the sole purpose of being able to see the memories of another person. That person would either not show any personality and depth at all, or he would have to have his own story thus taking away the screentime of the gay character, making that character less in-depth than he could have been. Not to mention that so much effort would be put into just for the sake of having a character with a different sexuality, which would have absolutely no relevance to the story whatsoever nor does the subject of homosexuality (or any sexuality for that matter) need to be explored in the series. It has only once bypassed the need for children, and even in that case we were already introduced to the character (Altaïr) and knew enough of him to be able to only relieve small stories and still know the context in which they take place. And I'm glad that my comments interest you so.

And in regards to the comments about Fable, Mass Effect and Bully, there is major difference with them and Assassin's Creed, in that the sexuality of the protagonist is the choice of the player, and not forced onto the player. That is an important aspect in why so many people accepted it (or rather, didn't mind) homosexuality being in the game. I'm very sure that if there would be a protagonist who is gay by default without any choice left to the player, it wouldn't be so widely accepted and appreciated as those games were.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 11:27 PM
Will a gay or bi character really change much for all of that trouble?
And we dont know if there are actually any more seals.

MasterSimaYi
07-05-2012, 11:30 PM
Will a gay or bi character really change much for all of that trouble?
And we dont know if there are actually any more seals.

No, it wouldn't.

Beneath Alamut, the remnants of an old First Civilization temple were located which contained a whole lot of Memory Seals; that's where Altaïr got his own six Memory Seals from. Also, there was a chest with several Memory Seals in the Library of Alexandria.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 11:33 PM
Alamut is the historical fortress of the Persian Hashashin, I know they came from there, but dont rememmber more being there....
And I mean, why would someone record his whole life?
Plus, the Animus HUD is a problem. Who will view those memories? too much work for a minor detail

Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 11:45 PM
Bisexual would actually work well. And wont be as shunned by idiots out there.

Perhaps Connor is bi. That would please the Connor/Washington shippers out there.
:)

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 11:47 PM
I sincerely doubt Connor is bi. If he was, it would be one of the first things they talked about.

TheHumanTowel
07-05-2012, 11:49 PM
It would actually be the funniest thing ever if AC3 just has an explicit gay sex scene out of nowhere.

Felix-Vivo
07-05-2012, 11:50 PM
I sincerely doubt Connor is bi. If he was, it would be one of the first things they talked about.

Maybe it's one of their 'closely guarded secrets'.XD
Or maybe Desmond is gay, and dismisses the whole Eve plan because he isn't at all inclined to join with her in any way. And the the world ends.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 11:50 PM
''this is wrong! Refund!'' xd

RatonhnhakeFan
07-05-2012, 11:51 PM
Will do. I do doubt that your mere assumption on how those two objects work have precedence over putting one and one together, though.I doubt YOUR mere assumption (unsupported by any canon source) on how these two objects work have precedence over whatever developers want them to work like to allow whatever story development or gameplay mechanic. They came up with Memory Seals just to have an excuse to squeeze out another yearly AC sequel, they may as well come up that Memory Seals can totally hold all memory.



That is indeed possible, but also seems completely pointless. It would introduce a completely new ancestor with the sole purpose of being able to see the memories of another person. That person would either not show any personality and depth at all, or he would have to have his own story thus taking away the screentime of the gay character, making that character less in-depth than he could have been.But this could be, let's say, this character's sister. Or brother. The game starts with a 30-seconds cutscene of this sister sitting next to a fireplace when she is 80s years old and uses the Seals/Shroud to relive the memories of her brother out of granny nostalgia. And after those 30 seconds of showing her sitting next to a fireplace, the actual story starts and during that actual story this sister is obviously present and developed. Problem solved. I love this discussion.



Not to mention that so much effort would be put into just for the sake of having a character with a different sexualityNot more than the effort to have an excuse to squeeze out another yearly AC sequel to get more $$$ when they came up with Memory Seals. Ohh already said it, lookie look. It fits so many areas. So what's worse? Excuses just to get more $$$ or maybe feature a different kind of a hero?



which would have absolutely no relevance to the story whatsoeverIt wouldn't have a relevance to the story about freedom? In a historical context the games present? I wonder if the developers would agree with you. After all, they wrote Abu'l Nuqoud in AC1 hmmm. Or if we think about the upcoming AC3. Guess what was one of the things Christian colonists hated in many Indian tribes (who had very different approach to sexuality) and one of the reasons for forced Christianization?



nor does the subject of homosexuality (or any sexuality for that matter) need to be explored in the series.Were you complaining about 'exploring sexuality' just as much when Ezio was having sex with different women over and over again? And how we were reminded how much he likes the ******s which was an actual freaking quote from the game (AC2) lol?



I'm very sure that if there would be a protagonist who is gay by default without any choice left to the player, it wouldn't be so widely accepted and appreciated as those games were.But it should be just as accepted and appreciated as when the hero's 'straightness' is forced onto the player.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 11:57 PM
Hetrosexuality is ''natural'' everybody starts as hetro, hetro is the most prominent. So no, they wont appreciate a gay character as much, some may even paint him as a bad character. And no, bi or homosexuality wont change the story much. What does Abul' have too do with this?

JCearlyyears
07-05-2012, 11:58 PM
Everybody calm yo titos
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5sefwrzwQ1robhn4o4_250.gif

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-05-2012, 11:59 PM
Everybody calm yo titos
http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m5sefwrzwQ1robhn4o4_250.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
Told you so many uses.

JCearlyyears
07-06-2012, 12:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hfYJsQAhl0
Told you so many uses.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RFZrzg62Zj0 I noticed haha

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:01 AM
I might just lighten the mood a little and say that I love you all.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=RFZrzg62Zj0 I noticed haha

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzjWXduLPjs
Should put you in place.
Back on topic: It just isn't worth it for all the effort /: Hell, the memory seals were a cheap idea in the first place. Dont over use them.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 12:04 AM
everybody starts as hetroLul no

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:05 AM
98% at least. I am just being realist, most gay people become gay later on in life.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 12:06 AM
98% at least. I am just being realist, most gay people become gay later on in life.By a touch of a magic stick? They catch gay? Is it in the air? Or was it from watching Project Runway? :O

Are you forreal?

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:06 AM
everybody starts as hetro

Everyone starts as eggs with no concept of attraction, ACKSHULLY

:)

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:08 AM
Nope. They learn more and more about it, realize it and then become what they want too be.
Lol @ Project Runway

BRANDONxPRODIGY
07-06-2012, 12:08 AM
Just curious! I personally know more females that like the games than males, which might seem weird, but maybe it's just got a universal appeal.

the male/female ratio is about 80-20 to males

JCearlyyears
07-06-2012, 12:09 AM
Gay gene?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:09 AM
The gaming community consists of more females than kids
Fact using research.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:11 AM
the male/female ratio is about 80-20 to males

Thanks! I just realised how off topic this has become...
But debate is good.

JCearlyyears
07-06-2012, 12:12 AM
More females than kids you say? Haha. I find that hard to believe.

TheHumanTowel
07-06-2012, 12:13 AM
Nope. They learn more and more about it, realize it and then become what they want too be.
Lol @ Project Runway
If that's true wouldn't it be the same for heterosexuality? How could people be born "straight" but not gay.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:13 AM
Research shows. Research is right.
EDIT: Because they are raised too be hetro's.
Reproduction is not possible without being straight. so that means they are raised too be hetros, but they realize that they dont want too be, and change they're sexual orientation.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 12:13 AM
Nope. They learn more and more about it, realize it and then become what they want too be.
Lol @ Project RunwayGet some education. No one becomes gay. He/she is or he/she isn't. It's THAT simple. Whether you admit it/realize it is a different thing. But you can't 'become' gay. If you think it's true, become gay tomorrow. Good luck trying!

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:13 AM
More females than kids you say? Haha. I find that hard to believe.

What about female kids?

BRANDONxPRODIGY
07-06-2012, 12:15 AM
search "ezio auditore" on deviantart. thats a lot of females followers.

JCearlyyears
07-06-2012, 12:17 AM
What about female kids?

I was just thinking that.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:18 AM
Nope, more. And Brandon is not lieing, all of the comments relate too ovaries and drooling O_o

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 12:21 AM
they are raised too be hetrosLeft-handed kids used to be raised to be right handed too, because it was "the correct way" and 90%+ of society is right handed. Guess what, they still preferred to use their left hands



but they realize that they dont want too beThey don't realize they don't "want" to be straight. They simply know/realize they are not. Never were, never will be.



and change they're sexual orientation.Then change your sexual orientation tomorrow. Prove it to us it's changeable. C'mon, do it. From tomorrow, you will start being attracted only to guys.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:21 AM
Nope, more. And Brandon is not lieing, all of the comments relate too ovaries and drooling O_o

Haha, well Ezio [I]is [/I ]**** handsome, but he's also made of pixels. Thus, my ovaries are not affected.

JCearlyyears
07-06-2012, 12:23 AM
Hahaha. Sorry, but your request to him seemed ridiculous.
Gamer girl detected?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:24 AM
Wait, you are a girl?
....I thought you were a guy XD
That is what I meant too say, they see themselves as not straight, they dont WANT too be, they know they are gay, so there, they change too gay. And there, gay people.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:25 AM
Hahaha. Sorry, but your request to him seemed ridiculous.
Gamer girl detected?

Just a gamer.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 12:27 AM
Wait, you are a girl?Who me? I'm a guy



they know they are gay, so there, they change too gayIf someone already knows who he is, why would there be any change necessary? o.O What you say doesn't even make sense

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:28 AM
Realize* sorry, wrong wording.
And no, Felix.
Ovaries = girls.
So unless you did something with you're self (O_o) pretty sure you are a girl.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:28 AM
Wait, you are a girl?
....I thought you were a guy XD


Yeah... hi.
You're a guy, I guess?

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 12:30 AM
This is confusing. Felix, once and for all, are you a guy or a girl? :P

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:30 AM
Realize* sorry, wrong wording.
And no, Felix.
Ovaries = girls.
So unless you did something with you're self (O_o) pretty sure you are a girl.

*shrugs*
Yeah, but I responded 'just a gamer' because I am. Not a 'gamer girl'.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:30 AM
...Erm....yeah.
I am waiting for Lonelysoldier too enter the scene and leave a comment about this....
xD

TheHumanTowel
07-06-2012, 12:30 AM
Yeah... hi.
You're a guy, I guess?
I'm a gemini if anyone's interested.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:30 AM
This is confusing. Felix, once and for all, are you a guy or a girl? :P

I'm a girl. Felix-Vivo is just a screen name XD
But that doesn't change anything, so back to this homosexuality debate....

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:36 AM
I say it's too much trouble for something that wont change the story much. So as cool as it would be, wont work.
And the MS are a cheap plot key, please dont use it again. And who will view the memories? the character must be related too Desmond. And how will our character get SO many memory seals?

LightRey
07-06-2012, 12:38 AM
More women play video games than kids.
FACT.
Please show me evidence of this.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:40 AM
I say it's too much trouble for something that wont change the story much. So as cool as it would be, wont work.
And the MS are a cheap plot key, please dont use it again. And who will view the memories? the character must be related too Desmond. And how will our character get SO many memory seals?

I think the Animus is better if only because it explains any pop-up text and stuff, and the fact that we as players can control it.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:43 AM
http://www.asiancanadian.net/2007/03/women-video-gamers-not-just-solitaire.html
2007
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp
2011

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:55 AM
http://www.asiancanadian.net/2007/03/women-video-gamers-not-just-solitaire.html
2007
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp
2011

Hmm, I'm not 30 and won't be for a long time. But those are pretty interesting, thanks.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 12:57 AM
http://www.asiancanadian.net/2007/03/women-video-gamers-not-just-solitaire.html
2007
http://www.theesa.com/facts/gameplayer.asp
2011
Now my question would be where they got those demographics from and how do they define a "gamer"?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 12:57 AM
Somebody who plays games and has interest in them. Not Solitaire.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 01:01 AM
Somebody who plays games and has interest in them. Not Solitaire.
That's not a very accurate definition.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 01:06 AM
Then what is you're definition, may I ask? Keep in mind, a ''casual gamer'' is still a gamer.
May I add, it is also somebody with access too a gaming platform. A iPhone or iPad does not make you a Gamer.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 01:12 AM
I say it's too much trouble for something that wont change the story much.It would show more diversity among the assassins. That they come in all "shape and forms". That all the different people fight for the same goal - freedom. And in the historical context of oppression of women, homosexuals, black people etc it' would be VERY fitting particularly in this franchise. And in the meta aspect, it would make this franchise actually stand for what it tries to tell, not just say, but also show.

And from a purely modern-day POV, games are littered with straight male heroes. You almost take it for granted. You don't even think about "I don't really have someone I can identify with better". There are very few female heroes and practically none canonically gay heroes. Comics are actually light ahead of games. There are lots of female superheores in comic books and quite a few gay ones as well already.

So yeah. It would absolutely add to have more assassins of a different skin color, different sexuality, different gender.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 01:14 AM
It would show more diversity among the assassins. That they come in all "shape and forms". That all the different people fight for the same goal - freedom. And in the historical context of oppression of women, homosexuals, black people etc it' would be VERY fitting particularly in this franchise. And in the meta aspect, it would make this franchise actually stand for what it tries to tell, not just say, but also show.

And from a purely modern-day POV, games are littered with straight male heroes. You almost take it for granted. You don't even think about "I don't really have someone I can identify with better". There are very few female heroes and practically none canonically gay heroes. Comics are actually light ahead of games. There are lots of female superheores in comic books and quite a few gay ones as well already.

So yeah. It would absolutely add to have more assassins of a different skin color, different sexuality, different gender.


Amen!
[not that I'm religious]

FL4PPYflap
07-06-2012, 01:14 AM
Well my girlfriend and her friends play AC and my sister just plays AC to see the Italian cities.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 01:16 AM
It would show more diversity among the assassins. That they come in all "shape and forms". That all the different people fight for the same goal - freedom. And in the historical context of oppression of women, homosexuals, black people etc it' would be VERY fitting particularly in this franchise. And in the meta aspect, it would make this franchise actually stand for what it tries to tell, not just say, but also show.

And from a purely modern-day POV, games are littered with straight male heroes. You almost take it for granted. You don't even think about "I don't really have someone I can identify with better". There are very few female heroes and practically none canonically gay heroes. Comics are actually light ahead of games. There are lots of female superheores in comic books and quite a few gay ones as well already.

So yeah. It would absolutely add to have more assassins of a different skin color, different sexuality, different gender.

Different origins? check
Different color? check
Different skin? check
Different gender? check
Sexuality? I would love too say check, but it just too much trouble, which may suffer plotholes. So yeah.
Comic Books just recently got a gay marriage, so yeah.

TheHumanTowel
07-06-2012, 01:19 AM
Amen!
[not that I'm religious]
Phew, was just about to grab my pitchfork and flaming torch there.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 01:20 AM
I think we should really leave religion out. It's the torch for a BIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIII IIIIIIIIIIIG flame.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 01:31 AM
Different origins? check
Different color? check
Different skin? check
Different gender? check
Sexuality? I would love too say check, but it just too much trouble, which may suffer plotholes. So yeah.
Comic Books just recently got a gay marriage, so yeah.In what sense "check"? As in "already done in AC"?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 01:36 AM
Yep.

De Filosoof
07-06-2012, 01:38 AM
It would show more diversity among the assassins. That they come in all "shape and forms". That all the different people fight for the same goal - freedom. And in the historical context of oppression of women, homosexuals, black people etc it' would be VERY fitting particularly in this franchise. And in the meta aspect, it would make this franchise actually stand for what it tries to tell, not just say, but also show.

And from a purely modern-day POV, games are littered with straight male heroes. You almost take it for granted. You don't even think about "I don't really have someone I can identify with better". There are very few female heroes and practically none canonically gay heroes. Comics are actually light ahead of games. There are lots of female superheores in comic books and quite a few gay ones as well already.

So yeah. It would absolutely add to have more assassins of a different skin color, different sexuality, different gender.

That's a great idea :). I like that.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 01:39 AM
Yep.No. (half) black female Aveline is relegated to a handheld spin-off game. Not giving any "check" on it until there's a female in a MAIN AC game (on consoles, with multi-million budget). The protagonists in the main AC games are the most important, this is just the fact. If Ubisoft ain't willing to give this key role to a woman, then I'm not giving them a check yet.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 01:43 AM
Well, should have specified.
But I just cant see a gay character seeing light of day. As awesome as it would be, the controversy it may cause plus the possible plot holes and changes too story, it is a nice idea tho, I'll give you that.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 01:52 AM
Well, should have specified.
But I just cant see a gay character seeing light of day. As awesome as it would be, the controversy it may cause plus the possible plot holes and changes too story, it is a nice idea tho, I'll give you that.The only thing it may cause is controversy since no changes or plotholes will exist with the stuff that is ALREADY in this franchise. I didn't come up with Memory Seals, the Turin Shroud (btw, do you know what's the name of the city we got coordinates to in ACB Da Vinci DLC? Turin thehe >:} or memory farming and DDS. Ubisoft did, they made it possible to completely bypass the need for children to view memories so they may as well now have a gay assassin.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 01:58 AM
How did he acquire all of those seals? who is viewing him? shouldn't that character be developed well?
And can someone explain memory farming and DDS?
I know they come from Project Legacy, but never fully understood them.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 02:03 AM
How did he acquire all of those seals? who is viewing him? shouldn't that character be developed well? Already talked about it in this this thread, won't write it again. Go back and read.



And can someone explain memory farming and DDS?
I know they come from Project Legacy, but never fully understood them.http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/Data_Dump_Scanner That's well, all we know. The process of memory farming is not explained in details. This is the potential plothole I mentioned earlier. Not related to sexuality but to Desmond. Each cell in our body contains full DNA. So... isn't memory farming just taking a skin/hair sample and "sticking" it into this DDS machine to view the memories from the DNA in this sample? That's the most logical explanation to me. But that would mean the entire plot of kidnapping Desmond was pointless because they could just take 1 hair of his and "stick" it into DDS and have someone from Abstergo view all the memories from it.

So we'll see. This should be explained more in the future. Not sure how/if they will explain it though. In any case, the Memory Seals and the Shroud beyong any doubt allow to record memories and then pass them on other people.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 02:53 AM
You said a ancestor should be viewing them, but who? and how did he acquire them? I dont think you addressed that.
That's a big fat plot hole, since it goes completely against AC1. Ubi kinda messed up there.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 03:02 AM
You said a ancestor should be viewing them, but who? and how did he acquire them? I dont think you addressed that.Yes I did already, on a sister example (who got the Keys or touched the Shroud). I don't even get why I need to explain it. You have an entire game that explains it - Assassin's Creed Revelations. It's part of the canon already. Are you just trying to make it more complex than it is for the sake of it? There are billion ways you can write a plot like that. All equally easy. Just have someone who's Desmond direct ancestor touch some Shroud or find some Keys that have memories of that assassin. And that's it.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 03:07 AM
The Shroud does seem too store something in them, but are they really memories? Giovanni Borgia did not see ''memories'' just visions of his father and Brutus talking too him.
If I am wrong, please correct me.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 03:43 AM
The Shroud does seem too store something in them, but are they really memories? Giovanni Borgia did not see ''memories'' just visions of his father and Brutus talking too him.
If I am wrong, please correct me.I don't think these were any magical visions or anything. One of the farmed Project Legacy memories was that of an assassin Francesco Vecellio. Through Francesco's memories, players were able to access the memories of his target - Niccolo di Pitigliano. Niccolo used the Shroud right before dying. After his death, Francesco took the Shroud. So to me, it's rather obvious that the Shroud both records and imprints the memories of those who touch it.

Giovanni's visions sounded like the bleeding effect visions which are also memories appearing without the use of Animus.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 03:45 AM
Well yes, but those people that were ''talking too him'' both used the Shroud aswell.
if only more is clarified about the Shroud....

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 03:54 AM
Well yes, but those people that were ''talking too him'' both used the Shroud aswell.
if only more is clarified about the Shroud....Maybe it will be in AC3. Like I said, the location of the Grand Temple just so happens to be in a city called Turin. Stuff like this is rarely a coincidence in this franchise.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 12:58 PM
Maybe it will be in AC3. Like I said, the location of the Grand Temple just so happens to be in a city called Turin. Stuff like this is rarely a coincidence in this franchise.

Agree with this, and Ubi are good with all this foreshadowing/coincidence/Chekhov's gun stuff.
(It's why I'm still holding out hope that 16 isn't gone yet.)

TheHumanTowel
07-06-2012, 01:01 PM
Agree with this, and Ubi are good with all this foreshadowing/coincidence/Chekhov's gun stuff.
(It's why I'm still holding out hope that 16 isn't gone yet.)
Has there been foreshadowing that 16 isn't dead?

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 01:06 PM
Has there been foreshadowing that 16 isn't dead?

This post was what got me thinking:


Okay.
SO, there’s that scene as Animus Island/the Black Room starts to disintegrate. 16 grabs Desmond, they crackle with blue lighty stuff, Desmond says, “Don’t do this!”
And 16/Clay is all, “I’m saving you, idiot! GO!” And the Animus is tricked into deleting 16 instead of Desmond, right? And we are to assume that he’s just gone, what with his body being ‘worm food’. (Please tell me if I’m wrong, I’m quite new to this series…)
BUT
WHAT
IF
we move the comma in that last bit… making:
“I’m saving, you idiot!”
Saving. Like a computer save. When Desmond wakes up from his coma, his arm is glowing in a similar way to how 16 does as he ‘hugs’ Desmond. Wind the game back a little, and 16 is asking Desmond if he can come with him. Desmond says no, sorry. Then Clay curls up into a ball and creys.
Now, why would they present us with this possibility, of 16 somehow joining with Desmond, only to quash it straight away? [As Chekhov says, “If in the first act you have hung a pistol on the wall, then in the following one it should be fired. Otherwise don’t put it there.”] And it’s Ubisoft, the kings of mind****s! They do that kind of stuff!
If they wanted to go for emotional resonance, sympathy for 16, they could have easily achieved it in another, simpler way. And given that it is an optional, downloadable, $10 matter whether or not you know that Lucy is a Templar the whole time, it seems silly to NOT MENTION THAT and yet put in a whole cut-scene just for 16 to feel sad that he missed his chance. One of the true revelations - that alters everything we’ve seen so far - is optional; and yet even more of Desmond’s limited screen time is devoted to a character who they then just ‘get rid of’?
Am I making sense?
Now lets say that Clay really was ‘saving’, somehow into Desmond… that could be interesting.
I know there was some stuff about Jupiter and knowledge and hands… but who’s to say the two can’t be linked?
I just checked the subtitles of that scene, and they don’t allow for this theory, but…

I do agree that 16 asking to go with Desmond was an utterly pointless move if it was just there for the sake of it. Then there was the whole podcast with Jeffrey thingy, which I may listen to again anyway and type up some bits, but he said some interesting stuff about nothing being ruled out with 16.

EDIT: and also, if those cutscenes with Desmond were just for character development - why bother developing a character who is then just killed off at the end, a character who has said many interesting things to Desmond yet never discussed them when they actually could? (e.g. your son...)

LightRey
07-06-2012, 01:12 PM
Has there been foreshadowing that 16 isn't dead?
Not that I've noticed and I'm pretty sure they said he won't be coming back in ACIII, so :/


This post was what got me thinking:



I do agree that 16 asking to go with Desmond was an utterly pointless move if it was just there for the sake of it. Then there was the whole podcast with Jeffrey thingy, which I may listen to again anyway and type up some bits, but he said some interesting stuff about nothing being ruled out with 16.

EDIT: and also, if those cutscenes with Desmond were just for character development - why bother developing a character who is then just killed off at the end, a character who has said many interesting things to Desmond yet never discussed them when they actually could? (e.g. your son...)
It's called drama.

Stroonzje
07-06-2012, 01:12 PM
Women Obviously

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 01:17 PM
Not that I've noticed and I'm pretty sure they said he won't be coming back in ACIII, so :/


It's called drama.

Well, I thought that they said he wouldn't be delivering the Truth puzzles, not that he wouldn't be in it outright. I'll find that podcast stuff!
And wouldn't the revelation that Lucy was a Templar have been more dramatic?

LightRey
07-06-2012, 01:22 PM
Well, I thought that they said he wouldn't be delivering the Truth puzzles, not that he wouldn't be in it outright. I'll find that podcast stuff!
And wouldn't the revelation that Lucy was a Templar have been more dramatic?
They did in a few interviews. I'm pretty sure they even said that he'd be gone. Pretty sure Esco even got a statement from Darby McDevitt stating S16 did not go with Desmond.

Helforsite
07-06-2012, 01:25 PM
Short Notice on the Article 3 pages ago:
Where do they have their proofs? My only possible explanation about the 1 of 3 women is a gamer would be that in Asia and Russia there are like 2/3 and in countries like mine(Germany) there are like 0,2/3. I am on a school with 1500 students and i am pretty sure that almost no girl here is gamer. I mean i know 3 grades(ca. 450 students) where i say: if there are 5 female gamers I will eat my poop. I mean the only thing they do is going to parties and ****.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 01:27 PM
Short Notice on the Article 3 pages ago:
Where do they have their proofs? My only possible explanation about the 1 of 3 women is a gamer would be that in Asia and Russia there are like 2/3 and in countries like mine(Germany) there are like 0,2/3. I am on a school with 1500 students and i am pretty sure that almost no girl here is gamer. I mean i know 3 grades(ca. 450 students) where i say: if there are 5 female gamers I will eat my poop. I mean the only thing they do is going to parties and ****.
I'm quite sure it has to do with their definition of the term "gamer". I also doubt the necessary surveys were taken according to the scientific method and that no intensive data reduction has been performed either.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 01:32 PM
Short Notice on the Article 3 pages ago:
Where do they have their proofs? My only possible explanation about the 1 of 3 women is a gamer would be that in Asia and Russia there are like 2/3 and in countries like mine(Germany) there are like 0,2/3. I am on a school with 1500 students and i am pretty sure that almost no girl here is gamer. I mean i know 3 grades(ca. 450 students) where i say: if there are 5 female gamers I will eat my poop. I mean the only thing they do is going to parties and ****.

Well, I am. It's possible to have a social life and play on my PS3 before I go to bed.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 01:35 PM
Well, I am. It's possible to have a social life and play on my PS3 before I go to bed.
Don't get me wrong, the amount of female gamers is definitely on the rise, but I find it very hard to believe it to be anywhere near 50%.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 01:38 PM
Don't get me wrong, the amount of female gamers is definitely on the rise, but I find it very hard to believe it to be anywhere near 50%.

I probably would agree with this, actually.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 03:05 PM
It's definitely not 50%, but it's definitely also on the rise. Especially RPGs that allow to play as women have big (as in 20-30%) number of female players. And it will go up as more female protagonists appear.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 03:07 PM
Yes. I will admit, thought, there are very few female characters in the world who I don't find irritating. I really liked Sofia, for some reason, but I found Cristina really bland. Claudia was cool, though.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 03:23 PM
Yes. I will admit, thought, there are very few female characters in the world who I don't find irritating. I really liked Sofia, for some reason, but I found Cristina really bland. Claudia was cool, though.Well, let's also bring up the fact that about 90% of writers in gaming industry are guys. Not that many of them ain't talented and can write good female characters. But many of them will have bigger problems because they're of a different gender IRL. That's just how it is. How many women are on AC writing team hm?

SixKeys
07-06-2012, 03:27 PM
Well, let's also bring up the fact that about 90% of writers in gaming industry are guys. Not that many of them ain't talented and can write good female characters. But many of them will have bigger problems because they're of a different gender IRL. That's just how it is. How many women are on AC writing team hm?

This was painfully obvious in the Cristina memories in ACB.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 04:00 PM
Cristina didn't seem to do anything. That was the problem. At least Sofia seemed to have a life outside of Ezio and was intelligent enough to be of more use than just being pretty.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 04:36 PM
Well, let's also bring up the fact that about 90% of writers in gaming industry are guys. Not that many of them ain't talented and can write good female characters. But many of them will have bigger problems because they're of a different gender IRL. That's just how it is. How many women are on AC writing team hm?

Eidos Montreal main writer was a women.
Deus Ex Human Revolution had some great female characters.
So yeah, it's problem with gender IRL.

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 04:45 PM
Look....things have to happen one step at a time.

I'm probably one of the biggest advocates for a female Assassin lead in the main games, but things take time. Especially in this industry.

Maybe give Ubi the benefit of the doubt with Aveline and see how she's developed before dismissing their attempts to clearly be progressive in this area.

dxsxhxcx
07-06-2012, 04:46 PM
I think Cristina was way better than Sofia.. IMO the way things happened in ACR between Ezio and Sofia felt kinda forced... but Rosa was the best of all three, she should've been Ezio's love interest...

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 04:47 PM
Look....things have to happen one step at a time.

I'm probably one of the biggest advocates for a female Assassin lead in the main games, but things take time. Especially in this industry.

Maybe give Ubi the benefit of the doubt with Aveline and see how she's developed before dismissing their attempts to clearly be progressive in this area.

I agree. Aveline is a lead of a PS Vita game, soon we might get a main character, then things progress from there too sexual orientation.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 04:50 PM
I think Cristina was way better than Sofia.. IMO the way things happened in ACR between Ezio and Sofia felt kinda forced... but Rosa was the best of all three, she should've been Ezio's love interest...

No, no, not Rosa. She was one of the most annoying!

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 04:53 PM
Rosa was awesome.
Specially when she was cursing left and right with the whole arrow...in the knee situation.

dxsxhxcx
07-06-2012, 04:57 PM
No, no, not Rosa. She was one of the most annoying!

if Ezio was a woman I can't help but think that he would've had the same personality Rosa had, they looked a lot with each other...

Helforsite
07-06-2012, 04:58 PM
I used to be an ad... oh wait wrong game xD

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 04:58 PM
In the novel Renaissance they kissed and stuff.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 04:58 PM
Yeah, I guess so, but she was still irritating. Not as bad as Bella Swan, though. Worst female character of all time.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 05:01 PM
I thought she would have been the best love interest.
Either her or Caterina, as Caterina was a strong female character.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 05:04 PM
To be fair, I have a pre-disposed dislike for 'gutsy female street-girls' because I also find Eponine from Les Miserables to be an abomination, and Rosa reminds me of what everyone thinks Eponine is.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 05:15 PM
Look....things have to happen one step at a time.

I'm probably one of the biggest advocates for a female Assassin lead in the main games, but things take time. Especially in this industry.

Maybe give Ubi the benefit of the doubt with Aveline and see how she's developed before dismissing their attempts to clearly be progressive in this area.I'm giving them a benefit of the doubt and I'm happy Aveline exists at all. But that doesn't mean I will pretend I didn't hear that "woman wouldn't blend in AC3" nonsense excuse which was clearly bs because they couldn't say "Ubi higher-ups/marketing ordered the hero in AC3 to NOT be a woman". And as much as I'm not delusional that tomorrow Ubisoft will announce AC4 with a duo of female and gay assassins as the leads, I will also keep doing everything to make that progress happen as fast as it can. :)

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 05:35 PM
I'm giving them a benefit of the doubt and I'm happy Aveline exists at all. But that doesn't mean I will pretend I didn't hear that "woman wouldn't blend in AC3" nonsense excuse which was clearly bs because they couldn't say "Ubi higher-ups/marketing ordered the hero in AC3 to NOT be a woman". And as much as I'm not delusional that tomorrow Ubisoft will announce AC4 with a duo of female and gay assassins as the leads, I will also keep doing everything to make that progress happen as fast as it can. :)

Not blend is pure crap.
Ezio could blend in normal crowds wearing armor and weapons + a hood.
Altair was the ONLY one who could logically ''blend'' and maybe Connor due too his hunter like clothes.

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 05:44 PM
I'm giving them a benefit of the doubt and I'm happy Aveline exists at all. But that doesn't mean I will pretend I didn't hear that "woman wouldn't blend in AC3" nonsense excuse which was clearly bs because they couldn't say "Ubi higher-ups/marketing ordered the hero in AC3 to NOT be a woman". And as much as I'm not delusional that tomorrow Ubisoft will announce AC4 with a duo of female and gay assassins as the leads, I will also keep doing everything to make that progress happen as fast as it can. :)

Shameless plug, but i think Alex's words may have been misread/ misquoted - http://www.xboxgamezone.co.uk/2012/05/24/the-time-to-introduce-a-female-assassin-lead-character-is-now/


But the growing calls for a female Assassin lead can’t be ignored. In fact they are calls that Ubisoft has not only heard, but attempted to address, especially in relation to the new setting. Creative Director Alex Hutchinson stated that a female lead in the [Revolutionary War] period would be “a bit of a pain” even though “a lot of people want it in. The history of the American Revolution is the history of men….. it really is a bunch of dudes.”
The full interview is on Kotaku. I don't remember him claiming it was a problem of blending at all.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 05:45 PM
That...dosen't make much sense. The Assassin's had nothing too do with what were the ranks of the Americans or British.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 05:52 PM
Shameless plug, but i think Alex's words may have been misread/ misquoted - http://www.xboxgamezone.co.uk/2012/05/24/the-time-to-introduce-a-female-assassin-lead-character-is-now/

[/I]
The full interview is on Kotaku. I don't remember him claiming it was a problem of blending at all.
And no offense to Alex, but it's still just an excuse. They're not creating a game about a politicians during different historical periods. This is about assassins, who bend and work outside of society rules. If a woman assassin pulls a knife to a guy's neck, I say he's gonna treat her just as seriously as if it was a man, even in 18th century.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 05:53 PM
That...dosen't make much sense. The Assassin's had nothing too do with what were the ranks of the Americans or British.
Still, there is the matter of cultural influence. Assassins have to blend in too.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 05:54 PM
If that is the case why is Aveline used?
It's simply for cash.
EDIT: Pretty sure there were women in the streets /:

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 05:56 PM
Still, there is the matter of cultural influence. Assassins have to blend in too.A guy with a white hood doesn't blend in 18th century American colonies. Not to mention his darker skin. Or that he basically carries an entire gun collection on himself.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 05:58 PM
If that is the case why is Aveline used?
It's simply for cash.
EDIT: Pretty sure there were women in the streets /:
There were, but they weren't walking around with guns.


A guy with a white hood doesn't blend in 18th century American colonies. Not to mention his darker skin. Or that he basically carries an entire gun collection on himself.
Actually, the "entire gun collection" (2 guns) will not have been uncommon, especially for a hunter. Not to mention his getup, though unusual, will not have been outrageous. It's not a monkey costume.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 05:58 PM
2 hidden blades
A tomahawk
A sword *Saw tooth*
A mace
A bow
2 pistols and a musket.
EDIT: Connor is carrying what I mentioned above.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 06:01 PM
Not to mention his getup, though unusual, will not have been outrageous. It's not a monkey costume.But it's nothing like the fashion that was present in that period and place. When you put something completly different than everyone else wears, you will draw people's eyes even if they don't think the outfit is totally ridiculous.

MT4K
07-06-2012, 06:13 PM
Hmm. You know i think stuff like this got mentioned once before for previous games. Then somebody i think posted a video of these guys passing a ball around and asked if you spotted something. Making the point that it is easy to not see something you aren't looking for. I could be getting confused with a different forum/game, but pretty sure it was this one :D.

This is the video i'm thinking about :P. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4)

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 06:15 PM
Hmm. You know i think stuff like this got mentioned once before for previous games. Then somebody i think posted a video of these guys passing a ball around and asked if you spotted something. Making the point that it is easy to not see something you aren't looking for. I could be getting confused with a different forum/game, but pretty sure it was this one :D.

This is the video i'm thinking about :P. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4)

Genius!

LightRey
07-06-2012, 06:16 PM
2 hidden blades
A tomahawk
A sword *Saw tooth*
A mace
A bow
2 pistols and a musket.
EDIT: Connor is carrying what I mentioned above.
Well the bow and the guns are obviously normal for a hunter, he's only carrying one mace/sword, the tomahawk might be noticed, but would not have been unusual for a hunter, especially a native American hunter and he won't be carrying around a musket all the time as it's confirmed to not be part of the "permanent" assortment of weapons (you can pick it up and use it, but not permanently equip or "sheathe" it).


But it's nothing like the fashion that was present in that period and place. When you put something completly different than everyone else wears, you will draw people's eyes even if they don't think the outfit is totally ridiculous.
You'd be surprised how easy it is to blend in with a crowd wearing the most ridiculous outfits. As long as the colors aren't too bright or different from the surroundings, it will largely go unnoticed and the few that do notice are generally not inclined to make note of it due to group psychology.


Hmm. You know i think stuff like this got mentioned once before for previous games. Then somebody i think posted a video of these guys passing a ball around and asked if you spotted something. Making the point that it is easy to not see something you aren't looking for. I could be getting confused with a different forum/game, but pretty sure it was this one :D.

This is the video i'm thinking about :P. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ahg6qcgoay4)
Exactly. Inattentional blindness ftw.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 06:20 PM
I am not dis-agreeing with you, I think he can totally blend in, but the excuse they used for a female character can be applied on Connor aswell
And there will be a permanent one. With the pre-orders.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 06:21 PM
I am not dis-agreeing with you, I think he can totally blend in, but the excuse they used for a female character can be applied on Connor aswell
And there will be a permanent one. With the pre-orders.
Of course, but I do understand Alex' point of view.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 06:30 PM
You'd be surprised how easy it is to blend in with a crowd wearing the most ridiculous outfits. As long as the colors aren't too bright or different from the surroundings, it will largely go unnoticed and the few that do notice are generally not inclined to make note of it due to group psychology.In that case, why not a woman in white hood?



Exactly. Inattentional blindness ftw.So it would work even better for a woman, since 18th century American colonies wouldn't be expecting/looking for a female assassin.

freddie_1897
07-06-2012, 06:31 PM
can i ask how he will dual wield a sword? i mean i know it can be done but it might feel a bit akward

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 06:32 PM
You are probably only be able too Duel wield it with a gun, maybe?

LightRey
07-06-2012, 06:37 PM
In that case, why not a woman in white hood?

So it would work even better for a woman, since 18th century American colonies wouldn't be expecting/looking for a female assassin.
Well the problem is more a cultural one. You see, women didn't exactly have the same rights as men did. Now a woman walking alone on the streets would already be drawing attention to herself, but on top of that it would likely be harder for them to get to specific targets (unless they were "special guests", if you know what I mean). I'm not saying it eliminates the possibility, but it does create unnecessary complications for story writers. Using a male protagonist is just easier.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 06:39 PM
Light has a point. We did not share the same rights, and she cant be a ''special guest'' every time.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 06:44 PM
Well the problem is more a cultural one. You see, women didn't exactly have the same rights as men did. Now a woman walking alone on the streets would already be drawing attention to herself, but on top of that it would likely be harder for them to get to specific targets (unless they were "special guests", if you know what I mean). I'm not saying it eliminates the possibility, but it does create unnecessary complications for story writers. Using a male protagonist is just easier.Yes yes, let's just keep going with what's easy. This is what this industry's been doing for decades. No wonder many movie, book and even comic authors still consider games to be a lesser medium of storytelling.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 06:48 PM
Movies have no right on talking down on games. They're depiction of women is most of the time awful.
Comic books I guess you have a point, books are a whole separate thing.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 06:52 PM
Movies have no right on talking down on games. They're depiction of women is most of the time awful.
Comic books I guess you have a point, books are a whole separate thing.
Movies have Angelina Jolie openings action blockbusters on her name alone. Resident Evil saga with Milla Jovovoich where each installment earns more and more. They have Jennifer Lawrence headlining The Hunger Games that earned 400 million at US box office. They have female-driven Twilight blockbuster saga (regardless if you hate this franchise or not, it earns craploads of money).

So yeah, while cinema is of course no where near perfect it is MUCH better than gaming industry

LightRey
07-06-2012, 06:52 PM
Yes yes, let's just keep going with what's easy. This is what this industry's been doing for decades. No wonder many movie, book and even comic authors still consider games to be a lesser medium of storytelling.
Well why not go with what's easy? The point of Assassin's Creed is not to push boundaries regarding feminism or female gamers. Why create unnecessary complications in story writing and risk losing part of your fanbase because they can't or don't want to (try to) relate to a female protagonist if it's not part of the message(s) you're trying to send with the games? That would be a real concern I'd wager. What they're doing now makes perfect sense. They're making a side-game and seeing how well the fans like it.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 06:54 PM
Movies have Angelina Jolie openings action blockbusters on her name alone. Resident Evil saga with Milla Jovovoich where each installment earns more and more. They have Jennifer Lawrence headlining The Hunger Games that earned 400 million at US box office. They have female-driven Twilight blockbuster saga (regardless if you hate this franchise or not, it earns craploads of money).

So yeah, while cinema is of course no where near perfect it is MUCH better than gaming industry

All of those you mentioned objectify those women. Angelina Jolie? why do you think she is famous? her acting?
Nope. People think she is ''hot'' so people go and see the movie
Every single Resident Evil had Mila nude
Twilight had a extremely weak female character, you want our protagonist too be a weak character?
Hunger Game- You have a point.

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 06:58 PM
All you have to do is look over to the recent Tomb Raider hoopla to understand that while some in the industry are very ready to move forward and portray strong female characters on a par, if not better than their male counterparts, the industry as a whole, is NOT YET ready (or mature enough) for that. Extends to devs, marketing, consumers, EVERYONE!

As i said, these things take time. That's not an excuse, but FACT.

As has been mentioned, this strategy is one that allows Ubisoft to learn, adapt and test out all the issues that female lead of mixed origin would bring. By the time they transition to one in the main franchise, they'll have that much more experience, and it would be less of a risk.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 06:58 PM
Well why not go with what's easy? The point of Assassin's Creed is not to push boundaries regarding feminism or female gamers? Why create unnecessary complications in story writing and risk losing part of your fanbase because they can't or don't want to (try to) relate to a female protagonist? That would be a real concern I'd wager. What they're doing now makes perfect sense. They're making a side-game and seeing how well the fans like it.Are you serious? They could put Mickey Mouse as the assassin in AC3 and it would still be a gigantic hit. This franchise sells like 8 million copies on avarage per each of the main installments and the upcoming AC3 was always supposed to be the big finale of the current storyline. It's guaranteed to be a hit so there was no better moment to have a female assassin.

Seriously, you should apply for their marketing team. You would fit perfectly "why not just go the easy way! It's all about $$$".

Yeah, why try to push for women in a franchise that's all about freedom and covers historical oppression of various groups. Yeah, it totally doesn't make sense in THIS franchise. Assassin's Creed is all about Ezio loving ******s, that's the true message of freedom.

Just one last question. Are you a guy?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 06:59 PM
They are testing the water with Aveline, you need too see how people receive the change before putting it on you're main game.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 07:05 PM
Are you serious? They could put Mickey Mouse as the assassin in AC3 and it would still be a gigantic hit. This franchise sells like 8 million copies on avarage per each of the main installments and the upcoming AC3 was always supposed to be the big finale of the current storyline. It's guaranteed to be a hit so there was no better moment to have a female assassin.

Seriously, you should apply for their marketing team. You would fit perfectly "why not just go the easy way! It's all about $$$".

Yeah, why try to push for women in a franchise that's all about freedom and covers historical oppression of various groups. Yeah, it totally doesn't make sense in THIS franchise. Assassin's Creed is all about Ezio loving ******s, that's the true message of freedom.

Just one last question. Are you a guy?
What are you getting so upset about? It makes perfect sense. Assassin's Creed isn't about the evolution of gaming regarding female gamers or whatever. It's a game that tackles complex philosophical and political issues throughout history. Sure, women's rights can be part of that and it has on some occasions throughout the games, but if a male protagonist suits your needs much better then I see no reason for them to use a female protagonist just because some people think they should be pushing the limits of gaming and gender equality. I'm all for equal rights for everyone, but let them write their stories the way they want to, jeez.

I'm a guy and that question was sexist.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 07:07 PM
Angelina Jolie? why do you think she is famous? her acting?

Nope. People think she is ''hot'' so people go and see the movieUrhm yes, she's an Oscar winner and is both known for her action hits and her drama skills. Gia, Changeling, Girl Interrupted are very well known drama she's famous for. More for the action movies of course because obviously action movies earn much more cash than dramas = bigger audiences



Nope. People think she is ''hot'' so people go and see the movie
Every single Resident Evil had Mila nude
Twilight had a extremely weak female character, you want our protagonist too be a weak character?
Hunger Game- You have a point.Like I said, cinema ain't perfect at all, but the fact is that even if in some way they're objectified (nude Mila), they are also given THE main roles more and more often which is something games rarely do

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 07:09 PM
It may be a matter of taste, but I find her acting too be quite ''meh''
But let me ask you, would you rather have a strong female lead every so often, or just a weak character put in there for the sake of being female? exactly.
EDIT: The Oscars snubbed Nolan from best director for Inception and snubbed the Dark Knight, not the most credible.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 07:13 PM
I will throw in my two British pence and say that one of the worst things they can do is start shoving 'STUH-RONG, FEMAYLE CHARACTERS' down my throat. By making her gender worth mentioning, it almost reverses any effect she could have had. Like, cool, this 'strong, female character's' great at politics/football/whatever, but why is it relevant that she's female?

I'm not wording this very well.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 07:15 PM
What are you getting so upset about? It makes perfect sense. Assassin's Creed isn't about the evolution of gaming regarding female gamers or whatever. It's a game that tackles complex philosophical and political issues throughout history. Sure, women's rights can be part of that and it has on some occasions throughout the games, but if a male protagonist suits your needs much better then I see no reason for them to use a female protagonist just because some people think they should be pushing the limits of gaming and gender equality. I'm all for equal rights for everyone, but let them write their stories the way they want to, jeez.

I'm a guy and that question was sexist.lol sexist. It's pretty much always the guys arguing "ohh a female protagonist ain't necessary". And this thread is the living proof of it. Bunch of guys arguing why it has to be a guy (a straight one too of course). Think about it. And I just love it when they always end up "well of course I'm all for equal rights for women" before proceeding to argue non stop why it should be a guy after all.

Ohh let them write their stories the way they want to? You think Ubisoft higher-ups/marketing department DON'T influence the writing?


They are testing the water with Aveline, you need too see how people receive the change before putting it on you're main game.
No you don't. They didn't test any waters with Ezio or Altair.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 07:18 PM
Because those are men. And people automatically accept men, unfortunetly not so with women /:
I am all for a female protagonist or a gay protagonist, but movies are not leading examples. At all.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 07:19 PM
I will also add that Katniss Everdeen should not be labelled a role model for women, but a role model for people who wish to be good at archery, people who respect quick-thinking and independent thought, and also people who are interested in survival skills. The gender should not be what makes her actions commendable, nor should it be tacked onto every time her name is written.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 07:21 PM
Above@ Exactly. We are only equal when you dont have too mention gender.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 07:27 PM
But let me ask you, would you rather have a strong female lead every so often, or just a weak character put in there for the sake of being female? exactly.I would rather have equality. Yes, that includes having crap females characters, just like we have crap male characters.



EDIT: The Oscars snubbed Nolan from best director for Inception and snubbed the Dark Knight, not the most credible.More credible than a single forum guy's opinion that Angelina is "meh" and got everything only because of her looks. Now it's you who's objectifying her.


Above@ Exactly. We are only equal when you dont have too mention gender.
But it is NOT equal when there is 1 female character in video games for every 30 male characters.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 07:30 PM
Not really. It is just easy too see through.
Most of her movies have either a sex scene or a nude scene.
And really, the Oscars have always had....weird choices in the least. Such as the Kings Speech winning Movie of the Year in 2010, Dark Knight being snubbed, Christopher Nolan, and so on. How am I objectifying her?
EDIT: If we had a crap female character, I am more than sure all of you will complain she is a ''weak character''

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 07:32 PM
lol sexist. It's pretty much always the guys arguing "ohh a female protagonist ain't necessary". And this thread is the living proof of it. Bunch of guys arguing why it has to be a guy (a straight one too of course). Think about it. And I just love it when they always end up "well of course I'm all for equal rights for women" before proceeding to argue non stop why it should be a guy after all.

Ohh let them write their stories the way they want to? You think Ubisoft higher-ups/marketing department DON'T influence the writing?


No you don't. They didn't test any waters with Ezio or Altair.

You either completely missed my points or ignored them. In any case, i'm out. When you take the chip off your shoulder and want a rational discussion, feel free to message me.

ShaneO7K
07-06-2012, 07:34 PM
I would rather have equality. Yes, that includes having crap females characters, just like we have crap male characters.



Couldn't disagree more with this. Why make a central character in any form of media weak just because you think you want to promote equality? It would only make people less eager to see more things like this.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 07:38 PM
Couldn't disagree more with this. Why make a central character in any form of media weak just because you think you want to promote equality? It would only make people less eager to see more things like this.

Like how Bella Swan being a lead character was a step back for the human race? :)

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 07:39 PM
How am I objectifying her?You're saying that she became a star only because 'she hot'. She won an Oscar already before she became an action star. Few years ago she was nominated again (for Clint Eastwood's Changeling). And as for action, she broke into previously male-dominated genre. She would never do it just because of nude scenes or because she's hot. She was a convincing action star for the audience first and foremost and that comes from the fact that she's a skilled actress overall. And she has reviews and awards to back it up, not given to her just because of nude scenes.



EDIT: If we had a crap female character, I am more than sure all of you will complain she is a ''weak character''Of course. Just as I complain about crappy male characters. You can't have every character in all forms of storytelling be good. But if there was actual equality, with 50% of action heroes being women, then the discussion would be purely about the writing of these characters.


Couldn't disagree more with this. Why make a central character in any form of media weak just because you think you want to promote equality? It would only make people less eager to see more things like this.
You don't get it don't you. For every good character there's gonna be a bad character. He asked me "would you rather have only good female characters or 50/50 but that means there's gonna be bad females characters too?". I answered the latter of course. The existence of bad characters doesn't take away from the good ones. That's one. Two - art is subjective. We may all hate Twilight, while many people love it which is why each movie earns like 700 million at the box office.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 07:40 PM
Not complain as in complain because she is a weak character, more like:
''See! because it is a female character, she made her a weak one. Darn you Ubisoft! sexist people!'' /:

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 07:45 PM
Not complain as in complain because she is a weak character, more like:
''See! because it is a female character, she made her a weak one. Darn you Ubisoft! sexist people!'' /:
No, I would never say a thing like that (if there was actual equality). What is your point now? Except for continuing to argue why there shouldn't be more female (or gay) characters while swearing that you totally have nothing against it?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 07:46 PM
No. I am simply suggesting that you cant jump the gun with a female character on you're main game in this industry. They need too tinker with the water first.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 07:49 PM
No. I am simply suggesting that you cant jump the gun with a female character on you're main game in this industry. They need too tinker with the water first.
Yes you can. Other industries prove that modern audiences are ready for more female characters.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 07:50 PM
Key word being ''other''

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 07:53 PM
Key word being ''other''Key word being the same people watching movies, playing games, reading comics. If the movie audience that's much more casual AND bigger is totally fine with female heores, so are the gamers. And all you say still sounds like an excuse. The probability of AC3 disappointing financially if it had a woman when 4 previous games each sold like 8 million copies on average was ZERO.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 07:54 PM
AC:R sold 6 million
:P
If you go on places where the Liberation trailer is shown, many comments go along with ''WE WANT A MALE'' ''Why are we playing as a female?'' ''Why isn't she in the kitchen?''
''She isn't hot ):'' and things like that.

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 07:56 PM
Key word being the same people watching movies, playing games, reading comics. If the movie audience that's much more casual AND bigger is totally fine with female heores, so are the gamers. And all you say still sounds like an excuse. The probability of AC3 disappointing financially if it had a woman when 4 previous games each sold like 8 million copies on average was ZERO.

You are just embarassing yourself now.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 07:59 PM
lol sexist. It's pretty much always the guys arguing "ohh a female protagonist ain't necessary". And this thread is the living proof of it. Bunch of guys arguing why it has to be a guy (a straight one too of course). Think about it. And I just love it when they always end up "well of course I'm all for equal rights for women" before proceeding to argue non stop why it should be a guy after all.

Ohh let them write their stories the way they want to? You think Ubisoft higher-ups/marketing department DON'T influence the writing?


No you don't. They didn't test any waters with Ezio or Altair.
When you start a sentence with "It's pretty much always guys..." you are being sexist. You're stereotyping me based on my gender. I have nothing against female protagonists in games, but I see no reason for the AC writers to go out of their way for it. If they ever want to write a story where a female protagonist would be more fitting, they by all means should and I'm quite confident that I'd enjoy it, especially with their amazing story writing. The fact of the matter is that this is their story and public pressure for them to be "progressive" or whatever if that's not even part of what they intend to do with games should never influence how they're trying to tell their story.

There's also a relatively low amount of black protagonists and Asian protagonists are really only found in stereotypical roles. That's also something that should change, but it should change naturally.

It should be a guy because a guy is better suited for the character they want to use in the game (which I would wager is one of the main reasons they chose a guy in the first place) and probably just to make sure they don't lose a significant part of their audience, which, like it or not, is a real concern. I'm not saying it would be a problem, but it could be and I'm basing that on my own feelings about the idea as admittedly I'm not entirely sure I could relate as well to a female protagonist as I could to a male protagonist, though that is in part due to lack of me trying to, but I've also seen a significant amount of people voicing stronger concerns regarding that, even girls preferring male protagonists.

My point is: they're writing a story to express certain things, to get messages across that they want to share with the world. In the case of Assassin's Creed that would be regarding many philosophical and political issues and sometimes cultural ones as well. Now since the story is a means to do this, they're using a certain historical setting in this particular installment, as history is their "playground". This historical setting happens to be the American Revolution in this case, which due to the cultural situation of the time and likely the type of character they wanted to use as well, not to mention actual historical events, would make it incredibly complicated to use a female protagonist to do the things they want the protagonist to do and maybe even more importantly to evolve as an individual in the way they want the protagonist to evolve. Furthermore, I'm quite sure the majority of the writing staff is male, which makes it not entirely unimaginable that they'd prefer using a male protagonist as it's at the very least instinctively generally easier to express yourself with a character that is in many ways, including gender, similar to yourself. Now with all this I just don't see any reason for them to, again, go out of their way to use a female protagonist just because a few people think they should for unrelated cultural progressiveness.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 08:00 PM
AC:R sold 6 million7 already and another million is virtually guaranteed with AC3 hype.



If you go on places where the Liberation trailer is shown, many comments go along with ''WE WANT A MALE'' ''Why are we playing as a female?'' ''Why isn't she in the kitchen?''
''She isn't hot ):'' and things like that.And when you go to Mass Effect MetaCritic User reviews you see tons of "ewwww gays I hate them get this out!!! 0/10!!!!" comments and yet ME3 sold millions. You see sexist, homophobic trolls on every pro-female/pro-gay video yet it gets better for women & gay people every day. You see racist comments under Obama videos yet he became the President and will most likely easily win reelection.

It's the final results that matter, and the final result is that a black man is the President of US, more and more movies with women are becoming huge blockbusters hits, comics have more black/gay/female superheroes (especially Marvel) and somehow the sales don't plummet despite bigots threatening to boycott etc etc.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:01 PM
When you start a sentence with "It's pretty much always guys..." you are being sexist. You're stereotyping me based on my gender. I have nothing against female protagonists in games, but I see no reason for the AC writers to go out of their way for it. If they ever want to write a story where a female protagonist would be more fitting, they by all means should and I'm quite confident that I'd enjoy it, especially with their amazing story writing. The fact of the matter is that this is their story and public pressure for them to be "progressive" or whatever if that's not even part of what they intend to do with games should never influence how they're trying to tell their story.

There's also a relatively low amount of black protagonists and Asian protagonists are really only found in stereotypical roles. That's also something that should change, but it should change naturally.

It should be a guy because a guy is better suited for the character they want to use in the game (which I would wager is one of the main reasons they chose a guy in the first place) and probably just to make sure they don't lose a significant part of their audience, which, like it or not, is a real concern. I'm not saying it would be a problem, but it could be and I'm basing that on my own feelings about the idea as admittedly I'm not entirely sure I could relate as well to a female protagonist as I could to a male protagonist, though that is in part due to lack of me trying to, but I've also seen a significant amount of people voicing stronger concerns regarding that, even girls preferring male protagonists.

My point is: they're writing a story to express certain things, to get messages across that they want to share with the world. In the case of Assassin's Creed that would be regarding many philosophical and political issues and sometimes cultural ones as well. Now since the story is a means to do this, they're using a certain historical setting in this particular installment, as history is their "playground". This historical setting happens to be the American Revolution in this case, which due to the cultural situation of the time and likely the type of character they wanted to use as well, not to mention actual historical events, would make it incredibly complicated to use a female protagonist to do the things they want the protagonist to do and maybe even more importantly to evolve as an individual in the way they want the protagonist to evolve. Furthermore, I'm quite sure the majority of the writing staff is male, which makes it not entirely unimaginable that they'd prefer using a male protagonist as it's at the very least instinctively generally easier to express yourself with a character that is in many ways, including gender, similar to yourself. Now with all this I just don't see any reason for them to, again, go out of their way to use a female protagonist just because a few people think they should for unrelated cultural progressiveness.

Wow, I never though about the historical event aspect
Well written post.
EDIT: There has been only 1 Gay wedding too my knowledge in Marvel. They aren't exactly making gay character every issue.
Even movies still suffer from women being objectified, which is sad, really.

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 08:05 PM
It's the final results that matter, and the final result is that a black man is the President of US, more and more movies with women are becoming huge blockbusters hits, comics have more black/gay/female superheroes (especially Marvel) and somehow the sales don't plummet despite bigots threatening to boycott etc etc.

All those instances are more mature and level headed industries/ gatherings/ snapshots of humanity. The gaming industry gets in a tizzy because a developer decided to include a scene in a franchise reboot that showed a heroine in danger of perceived sexual assault. If we aren't ready to discuss THAT, how the hell do you think we'd be ready for a strong, female lead that doesn't need adversity to bring out her character?

Think about what you are saying and remove the blinkers. The story of Assassin's Creed had been planned out well before this could have been an issue. So no, even if AC3 was the perfect time for a female lead assssin in the main franchise, it wouldn't have happened becasue it wasn't the right time creatively.

And while i'm on the subject, thank you Lightrey for bringing up the topic of black/ african american/ minority leads. I as a black man would love to see more black leads in videogames. I also am able to appreciate the attempt to portray them in strong, non stereotypical roles, even when they are done wrong. That's how progress happens. NATURALLY!

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:07 PM
Fox attacked the game and gamers were all like ''WHAT! RAPE!'' over a single scene. We are not ready for themes that AC deals with with a female character, sorta like the marketing team thinks Americans cant see bluecoats being killed.

TheHumanTowel
07-06-2012, 08:09 PM
All those instances are more mature and level headed industries/ gatherings/ snapshots of humanity. The gaming industry gets in a tizzy because a developer decided to include a scene in a franchise reboot that showed a heroine in danger of perceived sexual assault. If we aren't ready to discuss THAT, how the hell do you think we'd be ready for a strong, female lead that doesn't need adversity to bring out her character?

Think about what you are saying and remove the blinkers. The story of Assassin's Creed had been planned out well before this could have been an issue. So no, even if AC3 was the perfect time for a female lead assssin in the main franchise, it wouldn't have happened becasue it wasn't the right time creatively.

And while i'm on the subject, thank you Lightrey for bringing up the topic of black/ african american/ minority leads. I as a black man would love to see more black leads in videogames. I also am able to appreciate the attempt to portray them in strong, non stereotypical roles, even when they are done wrong. That's how progress happens. NATURALLY!
What are you referring to at the start of your post, about the sexual assault. Just curious.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:10 PM
In Tomb Raider Reboot, there is a attempted rape scene, people started too freak out everywhere.

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 08:12 PM
What are you referring to at the start of your post, about the sexual assault. Just curious.

Here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ir4V02nM9Mk (skip to 2:10 for the offending scene)

Cue games media uproar and 3 weeks of controversy.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:15 PM
Really, it is a sad truth, but this industry is not ready for it yet. We may like too say yes, but it isn't the truth. Hell, another proof alot of female characters are generally weak, no personallity, and seem too have had breast implants 10x

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 08:20 PM
You are just embarassing yourself now.
Really. Enlighten my why. I'm dying to hear why a woman in AC3 would be such a financial risk when 4 previous games sold like 8 million copies on average and created a huge fanbase of the universe regardless of the hero because the hero has changed during the franchise.


When you start a sentence with "It's pretty much always guys..." you are being sexist.No. If I said "all guys are against more female heroes", that would be sexist.


as admittedly I'm not entirely sure I could relate as well to a female protagonist as I could to a male protagonistAnd there it is. Why didn't you just admit it from the beginning? At least it would be more honest than finding financial excuses



even girls preferring male protagonists.And there are guys preferring female protagonists as evidenced by the number of female toons used by guys in MMOs or RPGs (and not necessarily just because "it's better to look at hot female butt when I play!", since many of these female toons are cartoons/animal-like/fantasy and nothing really we could consider hot). That's true for both genders but in both cases it's the minority, most women and most men better identify with gender that is the same as theirs.



Furthermore, I'm quite sure the majority of the writing staff is male, which makes it not entirely unimaginable that they'd prefer using a male protagonist as it's at the very least instinctively generally easier to express yourself with a character that is in many ways, including gender, similar to yourself.Of course, I've already mentioned that. But this has nothing to do with story, but a personal bias because of what you happen to be. The best writers have no problem taking the challenge to detach themselves from their characters and write someone completely different to themselves. It is their job to do it, even with characters that are of the same gender/race/sexuality as they. Otherwise, we end up getting self-insertions or self-fulfillment fantasies.



Now with all this I just don't see any reason for them to, again, go out of their way to use a female protagonist just because a few people think they should for unrelated cultural progressiveness.Because cultural possessiveness is a topic of this franchise. Read Altair's Codex again in AC2 where he talks about women. Not to mention that with the topic of freedom, it will be more relevant in AC3 than ever before. Especially with Assassins that are way ahead of the history that surrounds them in their views on people's rights, equality and liberties.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:21 PM
Tho you missed the historical part. In that time, not many women were involved, so having one in lets the Battle of Bunker hill? dont know.

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 08:22 PM
Really. Enlighten my why. I'm dying to hear why a woman in AC3 would be such a financial risk when 4 previous games sold like 8 million copies on average and created a huge fanbase of the universe regardless of the hero because the hero has changed during the franchise.

Don't pick and choose at my posts. I've explained myself 3 times over already. Read all my posts prior to your reply. Its not hard.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 08:23 PM
-snip-

Please clean up your post because I'm not going to decipher all of those awkwardly placed quote tags.

EDIT: In the meantime I'll point out my problem with your attitude (aside from the sexist parts or just generally insulting parts, etc.).

My problem is that you're asking for positive discrimination. You want them to pick a female protagonist because there have been "too many" male protagonists, which is pretty much just the same as picking a male protagonist because you think women are lesser beings or whatever it is people discriminate them for, but the other extreme. When writing a story, any story, you shouldn't pick your protagonist's gender, skin color, religion, etc. based on cultural "demands", but on what you're writing the story for. As gender equality becomes more of a thing and more female gamers and game developers enter the industry, we'll see that change happening naturally, because there will be more motive to write stories in which a female protagonist is well suited. The same goes for everything else. The content of the games will reflect those part of the industry.

It's art and art is simply an expression of the artist's own opinions, philosophies, character, etc. You can't demand of an artist to adjust the way he's expressing his vision simply because you think he's done something a certain way too many times.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 08:33 PM
All those instances are more mature and level headed industries/ gatherings/ snapshots of humanity.But I also brought up the example of Mass Effect 3 which is a GAME. And somehow gay content didn't affect sales even though bigots whined and scream like there was no tomorrow.



And while i'm on the subject, thank you Lightrey for bringing up the topic of black/ african american/ minority leads. I as a black man would love to see more black leads in videogames. I also am able to appreciate the attempt to portray them in strong, non stereotypical roles, even when they are done wrong. That's how progress happens. NATURALLY!Lightrey ain't the first one to bring it up, I bring that up often on these forums but whatever.

Since you are a black man, it is only more surprising to me that you're using similar arguments/excuses why female protagonists can't-shouldn't be yet equally included as recently we saw with people bringing up against James Heller in Prototype 2.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:36 PM
James Heller is one big fat stereotype.
And ME3 you had the CHOICE, and if you on lets say YT, most of the ratings are dislikes.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 08:36 PM
But I also brought up the example of Mass Effect 3 which is a GAME. And somehow gay content didn't affect sales even though bigots whined and scream like there was no tomorrow.

Lightrey ain't the first one to bring it up, I bring that up often on these forums but whatever.

Since you are a black man, it is only more surprising to me that you're using similar arguments/excuses why female protagonists can't-shouldn't be yet equally included as recently we saw with people bringing up against James Heller in Prototype 2.
Seeing your second point there, I think you misunderstand what we're trying to argue (well at least Esco and myself). We're not trying to say that there shouldn't be more female protagonists, we just want them to be used because the developer(s) decide(s) to do so because of storytelling-related reasons, not because there aren't enough female protagonists in games.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:38 PM
Too much work for something that can get negative re-action is not a good thing. Which is the sad state of this industry.

EscoBlades
07-06-2012, 08:39 PM
But I also brought up the example of Mass Effect 3 which is a GAME. And somehow gay content didn't affect sales even though bigots whined and scream like there was no tomorrow.

Lightrey ain't the first one to bring it up, I bring that up often on these forums but whatever.

Since you are a black man, it is only more surprising to me that you're using similar arguments/excuses why female protagonists can't-shouldn't be yet equally included as recently we saw with people bringing up against James Heller in Prototype 2.

You dismiss Aveline in the Vita title as an afterthought. The difference being i see it as progress, especially givn the state of this industry. Same with a black male lead on any platform, handheld or otherwise. If the issues that come with that decision are handled properly, then it is progress. If there is at least an attempt to tackle said issue, same thing. If we want such things to become the norm, then we should be applauding the efforts to include them when they aren't the norm.

Aveline as the lead in the Vita game is a bigger step for all involed than you wither care to admit, or understand. A female lead in the main AC3 game could have worked right now, but it is not the proper time. It is as simple as that.

Sweeping generalisations of males in general (myself and Lightrey for instance) really don't help your point of view. Your combatitive attitude further lessens it in my eyes. That is all.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:41 PM
Just wondering, why do you look so low on the Vita game? the Vita is still a system and the game is marketing as AC III Liberation.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 08:42 PM
My problem is that you're asking for positive discrimination. You want them to pick a female protagonist because there have been "too many" male protagonists, which is pretty much just the same as picking a male protagonist because you think women are lesser beings or whatever it is people discriminate them for, but the other extreme.So when people say "hmmm... video games are filled with almost nothing but straight white guys, there should be more different kind of characters" you're now equating it with discrimination of those kind of characters that are excluded? Seriously, you're just getting ridiculous.



It's art and art is simply an expression of the artist's own opinions, philosophies, character, etc. You can't demand of an artist to adjust the way he's expressing his vision simply because you think he's done something a certain way too many times.Neither as you should get worked up and try to find excuses because the next hero may not be the one that you will be able to identify well with as you were able with countless previous ones and grew accustomed to the situation where almost all of them were made for the part of the audience you belong to.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 08:45 PM
You cannot blame him with identifying with a male more.
He is a male. When Connor does something, in a way he can relate it more. You are trying too fight off in a way something natural. That's like saying a female can connect better with a transgender because he is well...a transgender.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 08:55 PM
Really. Enlighten my why. I'm dying to hear why a woman in AC3 would be such a financial risk when 4 previous games sold like 8 million copies on average and created a huge fanbase of the universe regardless of the hero because the hero has changed during the franchise.

No. If I said "all guys are against more female heroes", that would be sexist.

And there it is. Why didn't you just admit it from the beginning? At least it would be more honest than finding financial excuses

And there are guys preferring female protagonists as evidenced by the number of female toons used by guys in MMOs or RPGs (and not necessarily just because "it's better to look at hot female butt when I play!", since many of these female toons are cartoons/animal-like/fantasy and nothing really we could consider hot). That's true for both genders but in both cases it's the minority, most women and most men better identify with gender that is the same as theirs.

Of course, I've already mentioned that. But this has nothing to do with story, but a personal bias because of what you happen to be. The best writers have no problem taking the challenge to detach themselves from their characters and write someone completely different to themselves. It is their job to do it, even with characters that are of the same gender/race/sexuality as they. Otherwise, we end up getting self-insertions or self-fulfillment fantasies.

Because cultural possessiveness is a topic of this franchise. Read Altair's Codex again in AC2 where he talks about women. Not to mention that with the topic of freedom, it will be more relevant in AC3 than ever before. Especially with Assassins that are way ahead of the history that surrounds them in their views on people's rights, equality and liberties.
I already explained why what you said was sexist. Just because you say it wasn't doesn't make my point wrong, especially considering the fact that you've not provided any kind of reasoning to counter mine.

I never denied it and it was never relevant until the moment I used it. Again, I have nothing against the idea of them using a female protagonist, even if that would mean I might not like the game as much, but they shouldn't do so to be "progressive", they should do so because they want to write a story in which a female protagonist would fit well.

Yes and that's fantastic. I'm not saying the majority of gamers want male protagonists, but there is a risk and the question is if it's a risk worth taking. You think so, but they might not and I think that's reasonable. They're a company. They have competition. They have costs and they have an image to protect. It's dangerous to try those things and they're not writing the games for that, so why should they even try? Let someone else try or let them try it with a new franchise or, maybe even better, let them do what they're doing right now with a female protagonist for a side game.

It's their story. Their job is to be their creative selves. You don't get to decide for them what their story should be about. Even if they often have to detach themselves from their main character, that doesn't mean they should deliberately try to do so. It's up to them in what way they want to relate to the main character. In the end they need some attachment to them as they're essentially expressions of the writers, which includes not just who they are, but who they (might) like to be.

Even if it does have elements of gender equality or cultural progressiveness in general, it's obviously not the main point of the games and even if it were it should not have any bearing on the gender of their protagonist unless it actually is of importance to the story itself. You keep asking for positive discrimination. If they want to tell a story with a male protagonist they should. End of story (pun not intended).

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 08:58 PM
You dismiss Aveline in the Vita title as an afterthought. The difference being i see it as progress, especially givn the state of this industry. Same with a black male lead on any platform, handheld or otherwise. If the issues that come with that decision are handled properly, then it is progress. If there is at least an attempt to tackle said issue, same thing. If we want such things to become the norm, then we should be applauding the efforts to include them when they aren't the norm.I'm very happy with Aveline and that she's getting her game. But a handheld spin-off is not enough for me to say "yep, it's all equal now". HaSoOoN-MHD did "check check check" on female and black (Aveline) implying as if Ubisoft is 100% fair already which is why this argument started about the female in lead role in the main title on big concoles.



Sweeping generalisations of males in general (myself and Lightrey for instance) really don't help your point of view. Your combatitive attitude further lessens it in my eyes. That is all.Like I said, I never said "all guys are against female heroes", I said when the issue appears, it simply is pretty much always the guys.


Seeing your second point there, I think you misunderstand what we're trying to argue (well at least Esco and myself). We're not trying to say that there shouldn't be more female protagonists, we just want them to be used because the developer(s) decide(s) to do so because of storytelling-related reasons, not because there aren't enough female protagonists in games.You can write any story and fit any character well into it, just just a matter of good execution. After 4 games with guys as the main protagonist, it would be good even just from a design POV to switch to a woman. Real-world/social issues are only an addition to that. And it's very hard to buy these arguments that "it's all about who fits the best" when it just so happens that 95%+ of video game protagonists are guys. When you have a ratio like that, then yes it absolutely becomes an issue of equality too because it is obviously made on purpose that nearly all of these heroes are guys. Developement teams being dominated by guys plays a role, but it's the executives and marketing departments that are the most to blame here, just as it was (and still is to some degree) Hollywood executives who didn't want female action heroes because they thought "they wouldn't sell". So my point is - let's not pretend that it's all sincere "just art happened to be this way"


You cannot blame him with identifying with a male more.
He is a male. When Connor does something, in a way he can relate it more. You are trying too fight off in a way something natural. That's like saying a female can connect better with a transgender because he is well...a transgender.Of course I don't blame him, that wasn't my point. I'm a guy too so I'm gonna better identify with a guy as well. I'm also gay so I would like there to be more (well, ANY) canonically gay heores because I would better identify with them. But I know I'm not alone in the gaming and that there are people different to me who also want some heroes who they could identify better. LightRey DID admit that the fact that he could potentially identify less with a woman is one of the reasons why he's not so totally 100% for the idea, or why he has reservations. While I AM for the idea of a female hero even despite the fact that I could potentially identify less with such protagonists because I know how it feels when you're part of the 'neglected' group that's barely (if at all) represented among main heroes.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 09:00 PM
So when people say "hmmm... video games are filled with almost nothing but straight white guys, there should be more different kind of characters" you're now equating it with discrimination of those kind of characters that are excluded? Seriously, you're just getting ridiculous.

Neither as you should get worked up and try to find excuses because the next hero may not be the one that you will be able to identify well with as you were able with countless previous ones and grew accustomed to the situation where almost all of them were made for the part of the audience you belong to.
No. -__-
I'm equating that to using that mentality to ask of people to write their story in a way that suits you more. You want them to write about female protagonists instead of male ones. That's discrimination, regardless of whether male protagonists are overrepresented. You should be asking for them to just write more about female protagonists in general or rather, you should be asking if they can think of a fitting story for a female protagonist.

I really don't care much about that. I'm slightly worried I might not identify well with them, but would I hold it against the AC writers? Absolutely not. I'm even considering buying a PS Vita mainly to play the one AC game with a female protagonist. I'm willing to try, but if I don't like it then that will be that for me, but only on a personal level. Writers, of any kind, should write about what they want, not what society demands of them.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 09:00 PM
You did not specify a hero on a big game, which I why I said check.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 09:06 PM
You can write any story and fit any character well into it, just just a matter of good execution. After 4 games with guys as the main protagonist, it would be good even just from a design POV to switch to a woman. Real-world/social issues are only an addition to that. And it's very hard to buy these arguments that "it's all about who fits the best" when it just so happens that 95%+ of video game protagonists are guys. When you have a ratio like that, then yes it absolutely becomes an issue of equality too because it is obviously made on purpose that nearly all of these heroes are guys. Developement teams being dominated by guys plays a role, but it's the executives and marketing departments that are the most to blame here, just as it was (and still is to some degree) Hollywood executives who didn't want female action heroes because they thought "they wouldn't sell". So my point is - let's not pretend that it's all sincere "just art happened to be this way"
I'm sorry but that's just utter nonsense. The fact of the matter is that men and women are in some ways different and more so are their cultural circumstances throughout history. Sometimes a story can even be about how someone of a specific gender does or should do things under specific circumstances. It's all about what messages they're trying to get across and what kind of settings and other means they might want to use for that. In this case I think there are many artistic reasons for them to prefer a male protagonist over a female one and even if there weren't and it was 50/50, it should be up to them to choose which. A "lack" of female protagonists in games overall shouldn't have an impact on that decision, because that's just another form of discrimination.

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 09:07 PM
My lowly thread has turned into an intense debate.
:)

LightRey
07-06-2012, 09:08 PM
My lowly thread has turned into an intense debate.
:)
Care to join? xD

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 09:10 PM
My lowly thread has turned into an intense debate.
:)

Hope on in xD
At first, I did not see how this setting would impede a women, but considering it's gonna be historical events...
Yeah /:

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 09:13 PM
Care to join? xD

You know what, I think I will :)

[in my breaks between art, which I have been trying and failing to focus on all day...]
It will be a nice change of pace.

Perhaps I can offer a female perspective, not that I think gender should have too much of an effect on most opinions...

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 09:13 PM
Enlighten us with you're female wisdom :P

Felix-Vivo
07-06-2012, 09:20 PM
Enlighten us with you're female wisdom :P

Um... Aveline looks pretty cool. I feel like if she ends up as a love interest for Connor, as some people want, that might be a little less cool.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 09:24 PM
I'm equating that to using that mentality to ask of people to write their story in a way that suits you more. You want them to write about female protagonists instead of male ones. That's discrimination, regardless of whether male protagonists are overrepresented.
No, just no. It is not a discrimination to ask to stop discrimination. Straight white guys ARE majorly and heavily overrepresented in games. At the expense of everyone else.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 09:25 PM
Umm...Ezio was not very ''white'' until later due too age. But yeah.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 09:31 PM
No, just no. It is not a discrimination to ask to stop discrimination. Straight white guys ARE majorly and heavily overrepresented in games. At the expense of everyone else.
That doesn't mean people should suddenly stop writing about them. They should start writing about others as well. That's what I'm saying. Just because they're the ones that are the most preferred doesn't mean purposely not writing about them isn't discrimination.

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 09:34 PM
That doesn't mean people should suddenly stop writing about them.When and where did I ever said that?

freddie_1897
07-06-2012, 09:44 PM
Above@ Exactly. We are only equal when you dont have too mention gender.
and now I've accidentally had sex with a man on a blind date. thanks for that advice

LightRey
07-06-2012, 09:44 PM
When and where did I ever said that?
I meant you're asking them to basically turn white male protagonists into colored female protagonists (for example) to "even things out". That's discrimination. There should just be more stories about minority, female, etc. protagonists in addition to​ the many stories about white male protagonists.

The gender, cultural background, etc. of a character should depend on how the writer feels he should tell the story.

freddie_1897
07-06-2012, 09:46 PM
this thread is not going well

LightRey
07-06-2012, 09:51 PM
this thread is not going well
Meh, for now it's doing alright, but it's definitely in the danger zone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3D7Y_ycSms

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 09:52 PM
.....
I need too remember that video.

freddie_1897
07-06-2012, 09:59 PM
Meh, for now it's doing alright, but it's definitely in the danger zone.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d3D7Y_ycSms
yeah, but you can talk a biscuit into thinking its coffee. nothing's a problem for you

RatonhnhakeFan
07-06-2012, 10:02 PM
I meant you're asking them to basically turn white male protagonists into colored female protagonists (for example) to "even things out".No. Don't try to make it seem like something I've never said or even implied. My point is clear, don't write in 95% about white straight guys because the humanity is not made of white straight guys in 95%. Instead of having your next 5 games have all of their main pratagonists be white straight guys, have one of them be white straight guy, another be black straight guy, another be white straight female, another be asian gay guy etc.

Why do I even have to explain it as if you didn't know what I'm talking about.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 10:03 PM
Tho I think the idea of COMPLETELY dropping white male heroes is just as bad as not doing many colored female heroes. Not that you said so, but just saying my opinion on that idea.

freddie_1897
07-06-2012, 10:04 PM
i think right about now a transvestite protagonist voiced by Eddie Izzard would be the best thing that's ever happened to gaming since Pong

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 10:05 PM
i think right about now a transvestite protagonist voiced by Eddie Izzard would be the best thing that's ever happened to gaming since Pong

..........That would be...interesting.

LightRey
07-06-2012, 10:09 PM
No. Don't try to make it seem like something I've never said or even implied. My point is clear, don't write in 95% about white straight guys because the humanity is not made of white straight guys in 95%. Instead of having your next 5 games have all of their main pratagonists be white straight guys, have one of them be white straight guy, another be black straight guy, another be white straight female, another be asian gay guy etc.

Why do I even have to explain it as if you didn't know what I'm talking about.
Again, I'm not saying that the 95% of protagonists being white straight guys is a good thing, but that doesn't mean there should be fewer white srtaight male protagonists, it means there should be more non-white, gay and female protagonists. One should not take the place of the other. Ubisoft or anyone else shouldn't deliberately start writing their stories with non-white, gay or female protagonists just because they're a minority. Do you really think they chose for Altaïr to be Arab just because there were too few Arab protagonists in games or that they chose for Connor to be half native American because they were underrepresented? No. They chose those cultural backgrounds because those cultural backgrounds fit in well with the story and the messages they wanted to tell with that story and that's what they should continue to do and I'm sure that's what they did with AC3: Liberation.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 10:12 PM
Yeah, I seriously doubt they chose Altair as a arab, who does not run around with explosives, because they are ''under used'' more because it fits.

LordWolv
07-06-2012, 10:26 PM
I agree entirely with escoblades and lightrey, but please -
Does it really matter?

Personally, and this is coming on my level, I don't care about playing as male or female, black or white, I can still relate to the protagonist; I can feel empathy and sympathy, get to know the character, and gain an emotional connection. Race, ethnicity, nationality and sex don't effect that mutual connection to the protagonist that every gamer will gain as they play. I feel that if you have difficulty being empathetic to the opposite sex, you should probably work on your social attributes.

As LightRey has said, Ubisoft (and all other game companies for that manner) are businesses. They make money safely and securely. To this point, having a male protagonist has bought them good levels of cash and they've made a significant profit. Changing this manner, that they've followed for decades, would be a risk - a risk that if gone wrong, would badly scar the company. If you were a CEO for Ubisoft, I suspect you'd think in the same way.

You've got to see also that inevitably, if they were to bring in a woman protagonist, they would certainly 'exploit' the fact she's a woman. The majority of gamers are men, and men like boobs, if a game company is going to use a female protagonist she's going to be as good looking as possible and wearing as many over-sexed clothes as possible. That's just how marketing works, and again, changing that would be a risk. Look at final fantasy, for instance - a prime example.

I think you need to look at this from the point of Ubisoft, and also a lot more logically.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 10:29 PM
I agree entirely with escoblades and lightrey, but please -
Does it really matter?

Personally, and this is coming on my level, I don't care about playing as male or female, black or white, I can still relate to the protagonist; I can feel empathy and sympathy, get to know the character, and gain an emotional connection. Race, ethnicity, nationality and sex don't effect that mutual connection to the protagonist that every gamer will gain as they play. I feel that if you have difficulty being empathetic to the opposite sex, you should probably work on your social attributes.

As LightRey has said, Ubisoft (and all other game companies for that manner) are businesses. They make money safely and securely. To this point, having a male protagonist has bought them good levels of cash and they've made a significant profit. Changing this manner, that they've followed for decades, would be a risk - a risk that if gone wrong, would badly scar the company. If you were a CEO for Ubisoft, I suspect you'd think in the same way.

You've got to see also that inevitably, if they were to bring in a woman protagonist, they would certainly 'exploit' the fact she's a woman. The majority of gamers are men, and men like boobs, if a game company is going to use a female protagonist she's going to be as good looking as possible and wearing as many over-sexed clothes as possible. That's just how marketing works, and again, changing that would be a risk. Look at final fantasy, for instance - a prime example.

I think you need to look at this from the point of Ubisoft, and also a lot more logically.

This.
They would exploit her heavily. Just like IGN do with they're hosts. And you cannot blame ANYBODY for not connecting with a character that is different sex, it is just how things work.

notafanboy
07-06-2012, 10:30 PM
I agree entirely with escoblades and lightrey, but please -
Does it really matter?

Personally, and this is coming on my level, I don't care about playing as male or female, black or white, I can still relate to the protagonist; I can feel empathy and sympathy, get to know the character, and gain an emotional connection. Race, ethnicity, nationality and sex don't effect that mutual connection to the protagonist that every gamer will gain as they play. I feel that if you have difficulty being empathetic to the opposite sex, you should probably work on your social attributes.

As LightRey has said, Ubisoft (and all other game companies for that manner) are businesses. They make money safely and securely. To this point, having a male protagonist has bought them good levels of cash and they've made a significant profit. Changing this manner, that they've followed for decades, would be a risk - a risk that if gone wrong, would badly scar the company. If you were a CEO for Ubisoft, I suspect you'd think in the same way.

You've got to see also that inevitably, if they were to bring in a woman protagonist, they would certainly 'exploit' the fact she's a woman. The majority of gamers are men, and men like boobs, if a game company is going to use a female protagonist she's going to be as good looking as possible and wearing as many over-sexed clothes as possible. That's just how marketing works, and again, changing that would be a risk. Look at final fantasy, for instance - a prime example.

I think you need to look at this from the point of Ubisoft, and also a lot more logically.

in other words people are greedy and stupid

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-06-2012, 10:30 PM
Not nessicerly. It is just that the way that people built the social image of women effects those kind of choices.