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View Full Version : VVS Planes Now Being LEFT OUT of DFs



XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 06:42 AM
Open letter to Oleg.

Don't say I didn't tell you this would happen.

The laissez faire of the IL-2/FB/AEP system has come back to bite you.

I've started to notice on HyperLobby an interesting trend: servers purposely set up without ANY VVS planes on them. Normandy ONLY. USAF/RAF vs. Germany.

Seeminlgly, now that people have gotten their way, and whined incessantly to broaden the scope of the IL-2 system beyond the "too-restrictive" Eastern Front, and you've bowed to their wishes and packed a bunch of Western favorites into the mix... now they're repaying you by ignoring VVS planes.

Wasn't one of the original goals of IL-2 to have a sim that would finally shed some light into what was the biggest conflict of WWII? To educate Westerners that the Russians *also* turned out some pretty good birds that flew toe to toe with the German iron?

I told ya it'd happen, didn't I? I said that once you have a Spit and a P-51, you'd be hard pressed to find a Yak or a MiG or a LaGG online. Well, one's not exactly "hard pressed" yet, but give it time; it'll happen. The seeds have just now started to grow.

It's so hypocritical, too: it's fine for them to have P-51s flying over the Crimea (although that never happened) and swarming Kursk, but once we have a Normany map, suddenly it's a Western-plane only thing: after all, there weren't any Yak 3s over France, were there? *Now* it's time to be historically correct?

Since you're hard at work designing BoB with the "new improved system" I hope you take note of this and correct one design philosophy failing that's dogging IL-2: namely, not "steering" your audience to explore the history and the *plausible* what-ifs, and making the "wild and wacky" matchup and the "hardly flew" aircraft somewhat harder to inject into play.

We're seeing in IL-2 land what has happened in so many other flight sims and games: left to their own devices, the players will descend to the lowest common denominator, and the gameplay will be much less likely to look like history, and more likely to look like "Quake" and "Doom", crawling with (not to mention, steered by) players whose philosophy of warfare and tactics never gets any deeper than the "my Dad's bigger'n YOUR Dad" ueberplane mindset.

XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 06:42 AM
Open letter to Oleg.

Don't say I didn't tell you this would happen.

The laissez faire of the IL-2/FB/AEP system has come back to bite you.

I've started to notice on HyperLobby an interesting trend: servers purposely set up without ANY VVS planes on them. Normandy ONLY. USAF/RAF vs. Germany.

Seeminlgly, now that people have gotten their way, and whined incessantly to broaden the scope of the IL-2 system beyond the "too-restrictive" Eastern Front, and you've bowed to their wishes and packed a bunch of Western favorites into the mix... now they're repaying you by ignoring VVS planes.

Wasn't one of the original goals of IL-2 to have a sim that would finally shed some light into what was the biggest conflict of WWII? To educate Westerners that the Russians *also* turned out some pretty good birds that flew toe to toe with the German iron?

I told ya it'd happen, didn't I? I said that once you have a Spit and a P-51, you'd be hard pressed to find a Yak or a MiG or a LaGG online. Well, one's not exactly "hard pressed" yet, but give it time; it'll happen. The seeds have just now started to grow.

It's so hypocritical, too: it's fine for them to have P-51s flying over the Crimea (although that never happened) and swarming Kursk, but once we have a Normany map, suddenly it's a Western-plane only thing: after all, there weren't any Yak 3s over France, were there? *Now* it's time to be historically correct?

Since you're hard at work designing BoB with the "new improved system" I hope you take note of this and correct one design philosophy failing that's dogging IL-2: namely, not "steering" your audience to explore the history and the *plausible* what-ifs, and making the "wild and wacky" matchup and the "hardly flew" aircraft somewhat harder to inject into play.

We're seeing in IL-2 land what has happened in so many other flight sims and games: left to their own devices, the players will descend to the lowest common denominator, and the gameplay will be much less likely to look like history, and more likely to look like "Quake" and "Doom", crawling with (not to mention, steered by) players whose philosophy of warfare and tactics never gets any deeper than the "my Dad's bigger'n YOUR Dad" ueberplane mindset.

Tetrapharmakoi
04-07-2004, 07:02 AM
I have to admit that i agree with you that the new planes in AEP that never flew during the war or were only prototypes has shocked a big part of the online community especially the German and French community largely composed of people from 20 to 50 years old , being in squads and looking for historical immersion and realistic settings .
The Majority were waiting for Pe-2 , Ju-88 , Hs-129 , IL-10 , H-75 (flyable) etc... = planes that flew in Large Number during the war.
Concerning the problem of Oleg implementing US planes , it is because he fell under the pressure of the Americans , it is clear , as they are the most numerous to buy this game = money , money , man US dollars .....
But in the End , as Il-2 Sturmovik is the best warbird simulation ever , we have to accpet that this game took another dimension , now that it is a very popular game sold throughout the world , i think it is not bad that we can play on the Western front as it add more gameplay and dimension to the Sim .
I think the problem that you refer to is not Oleg 's fault but the problem of Hosts scorning the Eastern front.
I am a virtual VVS pilot , and i can tell you VEF is not dead on HL , not at all .

CHDT
04-07-2004, 07:08 AM
There's also a fact: US aircrafts against Luftwaffe aircrafts gives very balanced, fair and interesting dogfights.

It's sometimes too much frustating (especially after three years of pain http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) to continue to fly with a 190 against a Yak-3, not to enjoy a good fight in a 190 against a Mustang for instance.

Cheers,

Nub_322Sqn
04-07-2004, 07:25 AM
I wonder if Oleg really cares.

With the added Western flavor and the Pacific flavor comming he will make more money on his product.

Also, when the new Western planes where added there where no Western Maps to fly on but people still want to fly their favorate plane and if it's available then why not fly it?

Now they have all the tools available to build a complete Western flavor environment and this is a bad thing?

Let people do what they want.

Ever since FB I hardly flew a Russian plane, I flew the Hurricane nearly exclusivly and now with EAP I swapped it for a Spitfire Vb and when the patch is released I will trade it for a Spitfire IX HF.
Why? Because the 322 flew these birds and I am a member of a Historic Flight team and I am glad that they are finally in this game.

Now I am finally able to design missions in the correct environment with the correct planes in a great sim instead that piece of crap called CFS3 we needed to use before to create a Western Environment.

And according to you I should feel bad about it?

I learned a lot about the Eastern Front during the good old IL2 days where I spend a lot of time learning about the Russian planes and the air war.
I already knew a lot about the ground war on the Eastern front but now it extended thanks to Oleg.

New things always make people try it out, all you do is try to make them feel bad about flying the new Western planes.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

crazyivan1970
04-07-2004, 07:28 AM
And what exactly Oleg`s fault in all this? You guys gotta get some fact straight IMO. This is what i call POOR HOSTING and absolutely have nothing to do with everything else that you mention. So please..... why raise an issue which is more community issue then developers.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

clint-ruin
04-07-2004, 07:53 AM
Yes Stiglr, you did tell us this would happen.

People got planes they wished to fly and maps they wanted to fly them over. And they're setting up servers with those planes!

How dare they!

No doubt they are also flying with the settings the server op wants to use as well. The very gall.

Of course, if they did include the VVS planes in the selection set, we would no doubt be reading yet another Stiglr post about server ops not caring for historical realism and the stupidity of having the VVS fighting alongside the USAAF from the same bases.

Perhaps you should focus on one whine at a time, and work on perfecting that.

http://home.iprimus.com.au/djgwen/fb/leninkoba.jpg

Cossack13
04-07-2004, 07:56 AM
DF servers always stuck me as little more than a Quake deathmatch in the sky.

http://www.tolwyn.com/~cossack/Coss110Sig.gif

VW-IceFire
04-07-2004, 08:03 AM
Oh for the love of...this is a server admin thing and not an Oleg thing. And to top it all off...you don't even have AEP. Therefore its highly probable and entirely likely that you haven't played on those servers and have no idea whats going on in them and are in no position to judge the ratio of planes being used.

Choice is now available. If we lived in your world then we'd have absolutely no choice and everything would have to be one way. I for one love the fact that I can go in and see a variety of Western Front fighters challenging the best of the Luftwaffe...this game does WWII combat like none others. HOWEVER! I'm really tired of the same two things on almost every server (i.e. stuff that could use some diversity).

1) Mixed sides so you can be Luftwaffe on Red and USAAF on Blue.

2) Non historical matchups...lets have some dogfights over real battles and real terrain with the fighters that fought there.

Contradiction to what I said above? No. Choice is excellent but everyone has made the same choice. Whats ironic is that people come into a restricted server and say "I don't understand why people restrict the planesets". What would be better is if those people had nowhere else to play so they learned a new plane.

So message to people who are running servers. Lets mix things up a bit. Put into your rotation a number of semi-historical battles with historical matchups of fighters, bombers, and other types of aircraft. If the problem is audience then everyone who feels the same here should make it their duty to goto that server and advertise it to others.

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XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 08:11 AM
Ice_Fire wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And to top it all off...you don't even have AEP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(Yoda voice) So certain, are you? Mhmhmhmhmh! [/Yoda voice]

First, you're dead wrong; second, what would YOU know about it? You're not in my computer den, are you?

As to what Ivan says:

Yes, it is a community problem; but it is also a developer's problem. The lack of "steerage" in the system makes it so much more likely that this "popularity contest" stuff happens than historical. It's called context (or lack of it). All I'm appealing for is for some *balance*, and it is entirely possible for the developer to control this. Let's just say that "here's the planes, have at" is the way to the online silliness we have now.

@ T-Onub: I hear what you're saying, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with wanting to base a squad around a historical squad, and fly "your squad airplane"; but you don't feel the effects simply because your squad is based around one of those 'popular' planes. But imagine every time you had a hankering for Battle of Britain, dozens of people would rather fly Yak 3s and LaGGs over London, and you couldn't find any decent BoB action? This is *exactly* what it's like for people who want to explore the Eastern Front with any degree of fidelity online.

[This message was edited by Stiglr on Wed April 07 2004 at 07:26 AM.]

Nub_322Sqn
04-07-2004, 08:15 AM
Stiglr, don't fly on the air quake dogfight servers, fly coops with your friends.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

mike_espo
04-07-2004, 08:19 AM
Ivan, how much longer do we have to put up with this idiot's negative posts. He never has anything positive to say about FB/AEP. Can something be done!!!?????

"Fatte vede che ridemo!"http://www.flying-tigers.net/caccia%20WW%20II/g50.jpg

J30Vader
04-07-2004, 08:20 AM
Gave up on Target: Rabual did you?

XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 08:22 AM
Many times, the co-ops are just as stupid.

Again, it's context. Because all we have is a dropdown menu (with the useless Bi-1 the first plane you see!) and no help other than date of operation to guide in the design of historical co-ops or DFs, and because it's just as easy to design something stupid and historically ignorant than it is to create something that actually *might* have happened... well, you see where it goes.

@Vader: uh, no. Not by a longshot. But one can have an interest in more than ONE title, can't one?

Mc_Wolf
04-07-2004, 08:30 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif Maybe off-topic post
I prefer IL2 series should fouce on those aircrafts popular used in East front line, not that eye-candy new planes.

How many Japanese planes in East front line??
How many US planes in East front line??

I also wish to fly more planes, but not in IL2 series.

JaBo_HH--Gotcha
04-07-2004, 08:36 AM
I don't see any problems here. Although I never was a fan of VVS aircraft since they seemed so (attention ! now an uneducated term..) "ufo-ish" when pitted against a FW190 or BF109 I always wished to fly western only. When the first western planes appeared and then AEP we were flying Western wars almost exclusively since the fights turned out to be very interesting "but" (i dare to use the term) "Balanced".

Nevertheless our squad now plays a lot of eastern front again and we like it.
This game is BIG and has soooo many options. What's the problem if people like to fly their favorites and set up servers accordingly ?

Don't like it ? Host yourself or join another one... Dead Simple.

If I see a server full of YAK-3s and LA-7 together with Mustangs hunting some 109s it wont take you longer than 1 minute to find out what will happen.

The only thing that got lost to IL2 is the all-eastern-war theme. Since adding planes/maps/shiny effects etc. costs some hard cash (even if cheaper in russia) you can't blame the developers to make sure that they someday will afford an overmodelled Porsche 911 ! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'd be glad if Oleg and crew would even hear the public demands even more. So far the point you make is the smallest of concerns one should have in respect to this game.

Salut !

http://www.g-c-p.de/sigbib/hh/gotcha.jpg

Nub_322Sqn
04-07-2004, 08:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Many times, the co-ops are just as stupid.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I said with friends, you know, people who have the same idea as you.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

crazyivan1970
04-07-2004, 09:05 AM
I couldn`t write much on the subject this morning ... was on the way out to work... but i have time now.

First of all Stiglr... Think of what you saying. You complain about something that is completely out of hands of dev. team. Do you suggest they will babysit DF servers as well, or will inforce rules where Mustang cannot exist in the same airfield with La7? Or make BF109Z available on single player only? What do you want? You complain about planes that never flew, but that`s spitting on the face of those who spent countless hours make those amazing ww2 wonders, even that they didn`t see any combat. SO WHAT? This is entertainment, not life and death situation... who cares? Walk away, it`s so simple... There are at least few servers that have pretty damn good settings and plane sets. Go fly in there.
On the other hand...who are we to judge who`s hosting what and how? Are we allowed to? Small example - Are you allowed to judge me about my DF server when i spent few hundred bucks on upgrading dedicated server hardware and my electric bill is thru the roof?? What about hours spent on making those maps? Do you think you have your say in it? NO! - This is just an example, not attack on you. Just trying to make a point.

In my other post i said that there is category of people who`s trying to compencate weakness behind that joystick with big words behind the keyboard - Are you one of those people Siglr?

That`s all i have to say.

As far as doing something about Stiglr`s posts and his "way" - it is normal for any community, there are happy people and un-happy ones, this is how it goes and it`s perfectly natural. If this community contained only bunch of happy people...it would be extreamly boring IMO and un-natural. This is how life goes http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 09:05 AM
The idea is to fly with a bunch of people, not just your own squaddies.

In my old squad, there were a couple of guys who'd rather fly co-ops with just us than to try and mix it with a VVS squad. It just didn't hold the same interest for me. I liked a little competition and even a little bit o' friendly disdain. Added a little spice to the proceedings.

@Ivan: no, it is NOT out of the hands of the dev team. They chose to leave the sim very open-ended, but it has, in my view, cheapened it, and turned it more into AirQuake than a decent sim. Take a look at what they did with co-op encryption. With maps (non-player editable). They can tighten the reigns with any aspect of the sim they want. I'm espousing that they do that a bit more with planesets and matchups, in an effort to steer things just a bit more toward a *sim* and less of *just a game*.

By the way, I give you credit for stating that you support dissenting opinions. You are correct that it'd be pretty boring around here without some critical thinking now and again. Even if that would make things easier for Espo to grasp. &lt;S&gt;

Bearcat99
04-07-2004, 09:20 AM
I've seen some idiotic posts on this forum but this one is in the top 10. What a bunch of a$$hats. If you dont like the planesets and you want your VVS planes then set up a server the way you want it and fly it. To bring this BS to Oleg because YOU think it should be different is just plain trolling. WTF cares!!!!

75% of the DF servers are BS servers anyway. You come with that "it's so hypocritical" BS like its some kind of big philosophical debate... It's a scalable sim for crying out loud. What you are advocating is tantamount to insisting on manufacturing tiny condoms becasue you have a tiny d!ck. Well let me tell ya friend there are some "well hung" pilots out here who prefer to fly a varied planeset under varied conditions. You bozos talk about accuracy and all that crap... make your own "historically accurate" server and go for it but dont insist on shortchanging anybody else who might want something different...and has to settle for innacurate maps for now till accurate ones are available because YOU dont like it. Some of you just dont feckin get it!! FB is NOT an EASTERN FRONT sim!!!!! IL2 was the Eastern front sim. And one idiot said that Oleg "fell under the pressure of the Americans". GET OVER IT!!!!!!!! What a load of BS!!!! Oleg is a businessman. For this sim NOT to move west after how many years of IL2 would have been business suicide. I know you guys cant stand it but face it..... Americans buy stuff..... lots of it. We are a market that any businessman would be crazy not to tap. Im glad that Oleg is not as narrowminded as some of you would like him to be. Im sure his wife & kids are too (provided he has one). And that BS about Yaks over London? I think Ivan runs a pretty decent server. Everytime I want to go to the eastern front I head straight to Ivans place..... and I fly the Lagg or Mig or whatever he has available...and I have fun while doing it.... why dont you do the same thing and stop your whining and crying like some little jailhouse bitc#.

This kind of stuff just ticks me off to no end....unneccessary BS. If you would take as much time to set up a coop or DF server to run on HL and hook up with some of the short sighted, narrow minded, nationalisticly challenged crybabies who agree with you in this thread maybe your problem would be solved. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Wed April 07 2004 at 11:25 AM.]

crazyivan1970
04-07-2004, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
@Ivan: no, it is NOT out of the hands of the dev team. They chose to leave the sim very open-ended, but it has, in my view, cheapened it, and turned it more into AirQuake than a decent sim. Take a look at what they did with co-op encryption. With maps (non-player editable). They can tighten the reigns with any aspect of the sim they want. I'm espousing that they do that a bit more with planesets and matchups, in an effort to steer things just a bit more toward a *sim* and less of *just a game*.

By the way, I give you credit for stating that you support dissenting opinions. You are correct that it'd be pretty boring around here without some critical thinking now and again. Even if that would make things easier for Espo to grasp. &lt;S&gt;<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Once again, you mixing up developers with the hosts. COOPs have all the tools that you need to achieve what you want. So? What`s stopping you?

As far as moderation goes, i appriciate that you approve my approach...but keep in mind it only flies if it`s healthy, other then that i`ll get my stick out. What you doing now...it`s a little sore...but you speaking your mind and i`ll let community judge you on that.

On this bright note i am moving this topic to Gen Discussion.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Heavy_Weather
04-07-2004, 09:45 AM
you should stick to flying VOW or VEF http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"The wise man is often the man who plays dumb."

J30Vader
04-07-2004, 10:06 AM
You can:

A: Run your own server. Then you can have all the settings you want. Don't want Zeros over the Kuban? So set it that way. It is so simple.
Don't like DF? Run a Coop. Such an elegant solution.

If it is too time consuming or difficult to set one up, oh well.

B: Play offline only. Avoids all the problems of servers that don't have what you want. So would solution A, but B is easier.

C: Delete game from the hard drive.

And Oleg and Co are in no way responsable for this. The answer lies with you. Set up a game the way you want, and be happy. Or you can allow everyone to play the game they way they want, and keep yourself miserable.

So vonhelton like.

IV|JG51Flatspin
04-07-2004, 10:09 AM
Well, this American bought IL2 and FB for the Eastern Front. I'd been waiting for this sim for nearly 15 years, from the moment I picked up an Encyclopedia of Combat Aircraft and noticed all the interesting Russian planes.
When the Pony, Jug, Lightning, etc became available...I flew them - for the 'hmm' factor. Now I'm back in my IL2. And personally, I'd rather fly in DF or Coop servers where it's German vs VVS. However, you're not likely to find me in HL much anymore as I'm devoting most of my online flying time to FBOW.

I don't know if there's an answer for you...sounds like you just want to spout off...but possibilities are there: create your own server or join a squad that's actively participating in an OKL v VVS war, there are many to choose from.

S!

=Elite=Flatspin
The Wings of Freedom (http://www.elitepx.com)

carguy_
04-07-2004, 10:19 AM
An exceptional post by Bearcathttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

That`s right,the last EF bastion is VEF.VVS is almost only USAAF and RAF.I knew it would happen.

But do I care?

I don`t give a f*ck cuz I can shoot`em all down with me Me109.

Anyways,I`m not a market expert,but I think Yanks are gamers that have the biggest potential of helping Oleg in creating top quality sims for some time in the future.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

TheGozr
04-07-2004, 10:19 AM
You have the choice to make it and plan any real historicals wars with the historical planes.


Peoples have choice NOW. and it's good.

-GOZR
http://www.french.themotorhead.com/themotorhead_fighters/images/pix/il2fbtmhlogosmall.jpg &lt;--Competition Level IL2fb here (http://www.french.themotorhead.com/forgotten-battles/)

Puck1
04-07-2004, 10:22 AM
Some would argue the departure from historical accuracy starts with the Soviet fighters, not the DF admins. Regardless however, the sides are balanced with LW vs US or RAF planesets. This is not the case with soviet fighters. The soviets outclass anything in a corresponding time period. People get tired of that real fast and just eliminate them. Even the playing field and they will re-appear. It's simple.

{555} Puck

AcesHigh_AVG
04-07-2004, 10:32 AM
BEARCATS POST ON THE FIRST PAGE IS AWESOME, I LOVE BEARCAT! SHUT UP YOU LITTLE B!TCHES!!

BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 10:35 AM
This thread is too funny.

Stig, why is you don't host your own again? Follow up to that, why do you care what others do?

Also, I was under the impression that you were an axis flier. This game is rigged to weight things in favor of VVS planes (taken on the whole). Why would you complain about this then? Just a glutton for punishment?

What's really funny is, I didn't know that Puritans were still around, or that they'd play flight sims. But only they can really hate the thought of other people having fun the way they want to that much, so you must be one. lol

One of my favorite matchups is US vs the soviets. heh heh http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

[This message was edited to a 2-faced standard by crazyivan1970 on Wed April 07 2004 at 09:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by BlitzPig_DDT on Wed April 07 2004 at 09:53 AM.]

crazyivan1970
04-07-2004, 10:40 AM
Guys, please drop this VVS reference as superior power. How many times i have to bring this... G6/AS won world champoinship. I think it pretty much sums it up. Even mighty Frank couldn`t keep up. So what`s your point?

Name me one VVS plane that doesn`t have a good competition on LW side, please do... i`m all ears.

p.s. DDT you want me to edit your last comment or you will do it yourself? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

V!
Regards,

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VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

Cossack_UA
04-07-2004, 10:46 AM
I am a HUGE HUGE fan of Russian aviation. I think Russian have produced the most interesting flying machines ever (my favorite one would be MiG 15).

BUT at this point, espacially after AEP release, i fly only newly modeled German and Amarican planes, and BF 109s. Why? Simply because the new additions are modeled sooo much better that other planes both in terms of the FM, DM, and simply eye candy.

I'm waiting for the patch so i can try out I-185. Yes, yes, this bird never saw the action, but i don't care! It was built, it flew, Madox modeled it beautifully so i will fly it!

This game was designed for flight sim lovers of the world to unite and enjoy whatever plane, map, or setting they want.

crazyivan1970
04-07-2004, 10:51 AM
Ok, i`ll do it myself. I guess you didn`t get it.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 10:54 AM
Oh I get it. And that's the problem. What a crock. Guess moderation is like A&W Root Beer,eh Ivan? Only it's the power, not the foam, that goes straight to your brain.

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

VW-IceFire
04-07-2004, 10:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Ice_Fire wrote:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And to top it all off...you don't even have AEP.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

(Yoda voice) So certain, are you? Mhmhmhmhmh! [/Yoda voice]

First, you're dead wrong; second, what would YOU know about it? You're not in my computer den, are you?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well a week ago this was the case if I remember correctly and yet the same pointed remarks were being made by yourself. So provided that the first is true the rest of the argument does hold. If it doesn't, it doesn't...but I find it hard to believe specific comments on something that you cannot make specific comments on. It was the introduction to my overall argument but it doesn't reduce it in any other way as there are other vital points I've mentioned far more significant than the first.

We've gone round and round in circles about this same topic before. The point is that you feel that the game should be restricted by the developers and my point is that the developers should do no such thing and that its server admins who have the real responsibility to achieve the things you're talking about. Its essentially as diametrically opposed as possible in the context of the present argument.

Its my belief that if you were to redirect your argument and then we'd be on the same footing. In the meantime I think you're trying to have an argument with the wind...

http://home.cogeco.ca/~cczerneda/sigs/tmv-sig1.jpg
RCAF 412 Falcon Squadron - "Swift to Avenge"

crazyivan1970
04-07-2004, 10:57 AM
Are you expecting some kind of special treament here? I asked you, you refused. Now it`s gone. Got problems with my moderation...well too bad. Move along now.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 11:01 AM
No expectiation of any treatment, let alone "special", but "equal" would be nice. lol Your ties are apparent. That's why somethings are allowed to get by and others aren't.

Everythings fine so long as you don't trash the commies. Basically the way it works around here.

Whatever. At least it's nothing new.

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

crazyivan1970
04-07-2004, 11:05 AM
DDT, i think you need a reality check... if you have any more comments start PT with me. You were wrong and apparently can`t even admit it. You surprized me today with very well put uber planes thread...and now just deeply disapointed me... needless to say that you just made a complete fool outta youself. Too bad.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/coop-ivan.jpg

http://www.rmutt.netfirms.com/vfc/home.htm

Kozhedub: In combat potential, the Yak-3, La-7 and La-9 fighters were indisputably superior to the Bf-109s and Fw-190s. But, as they say, no matter how good the violin may be, much depends on the violinist. I always felt respect for an enemy pilot whose plane I failed to down.

BlitzPig_DDT
04-07-2004, 11:06 AM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

==================================
The Blitz Pigs - Not a squad, a Movement!

Come and spam on our front porch.

http://www.blitzpigs.com

Woof603
04-07-2004, 12:08 PM
On this bright note i am moving this topic to Gen Discussion.

V!
Regards,

http://blitzpigs.com/forum/images/smiles/smokin.gif

VFC*Crazyivan aka VFC*HOST

I think you should move this entire topic to the garbage bin.

http://www.spaads.org/denmark/spsabre.JPG

Woof603
04-07-2004, 12:08 PM
Sorry, double post

Nub_322Sqn
04-07-2004, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
The idea is to fly with a bunch of people, not just your own squaddies.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you don't have friends on the "other" side to fly with?

Also, are you 100% dependent on what the others are doing here?

Make your own missions and host your own coops, those who fly with you are in your perfect little world.

It's getting pretty tiresome to see you make the rules of that goes on online and if you don't like what you see you whine about it here.

It seems you have a hard time to accept that people are free to do as they seems fit to their needs.

Your on a cruisade to try and make everybody here see things your way and you force them to feel that way by telling them how wrong they are doing Oleg by not following your views.

Dictators are not needed in an online community, we have enough of them in real life and had enough of them throughout history.

I am glad your just another sheep in the herd instead of someone in power to make things happen just because you feel the rest of the people should think what you think and do what you do.

The only way for you to create your own perfect world is when you shut your eyes and fall asleep.
In your dreams is the only place where you can change the world the way you want it to be but then the alarm clock goes and you better snap out of it and wake up in the really real world, you know, that big scary place where the a lot of people do whatever they want.

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

buffscrum
04-07-2004, 12:57 PM
oleg doesn't owe anybody anything. We all chose to buy the game. We all choose to continue, or not, to play the game. If you don't like it, don't play it. If you don't like the way online is being played elsewhere, start hosting and set it up anyway you want.

boohaa
04-07-2004, 01:59 PM
First off guys lets face it,having to fly german vs russian for a long time gets boring.Oleg has opened doors and now we have normandy maps online and we complain???What gives http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

I love it where now I can fly eastern front /western front and even mock Pacific.Whats wrong with that????

LEXX_Luthor
04-07-2004, 02:04 PM
The push of FB into West Front onwhine servers may be seen as a Threat to TargetWare.

-- sad, cos the real Threat, as always, is Microsoft.

New competition from FB, of course, is wanted by the flight simmers/simmerettes.

269GA-Maxmars
04-07-2004, 02:11 PM
Microsoft's real chance would be releasing this christmas a new CFS with Med, Pacific and Western Europe. Otherwise I don't see how they could regain ground.

There is too much in FB to surpass it in terms of content, now, and that's something the PF dev should take into account when deciding if they want to include FB planes and maps and campaigns in their product.

Anyway, MS doesn't seem to be able to listen to its customers therefore it's probably a moot point.

LEXX_Luthor
04-07-2004, 02:16 PM
But teh MS has the marketing muscle to Win with inferior product.

Bearcat99
04-07-2004, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LEXX_Luthor:
But teh MS has the marketing muscle to Win with inferior product.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummmmmm thats why so many CFS guys are coming overhere. The diehards who refuse to give FB a shot are one thing.. but once they give it a go..... most of the ones I know flip.... and flip hard. I guess thats just because pound for pound FB IS a much better product...simple as that. With the 3rd party improvements CFS3 is OK so i've heard..but you know.. I STILL cant find anyone to tell me how to get the frickin thing to run right. At least in FB you have this community..... in CFS3 you are out there on your own. Sure they have a community but they just arent as responsive as the FB community is to newcomers. I dont think 1C has Jack to worry about unless MS sent in spies to steal the code and come out with thier own version of the sim... and to tell the truth..MS may get out of the combat sim business and just stick to commercial sims where they are still top dog.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
UDQMG (http://www.uberdemon.com/index2.html) | HYPERLOBBY (http://hyperfighter.jinak.cz/) | IL2 Manager (http://www.checksix-fr.com/bibliotheque/detail_fichier.php?ID=1353) | MUDMOVERS (http://www.mudmovers.com/)

ajafoofoo
04-07-2004, 02:49 PM
Wow, the game would be pretty boring if Stig had his way.

Sometimes the "lowest common denominator" gets you MORE fun.

When it comes to video games, I'll take fun over historical context every time.

I'll watch the history channel or read a book for facts.

RedDeth
04-07-2004, 02:56 PM
BEARCAT IS 100 PERCENT CORRECTAH. and stiglr is ....hallucinating.

www.fighterjocks.net (http://www.fighterjocks.net) home of 12 time Champions AFJ http://www.alloutwar.com/IL2FS/round9.cfm http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/ah_120_1065509034.jpg

LEXX_Luthor
04-07-2004, 03:47 PM
Bear:: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Ummmmmm thats why so many FSC guys are coming overhere.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Like teh Roth_Baroness 3FCS Developer failure. And now the TargetWare types/typettes too.

Not that there is anything wrong with TargetWare, but one thinks it stands on its own great merits.

SeaFireLIV
04-07-2004, 04:25 PM
Well, It is a little sad to see the original Eastern Front idea dying away. It was quite fascinating and it opened my eyes to a whole world of new aircraft and the general war of the Eastern Front. I really DID LEARN something!

And Stiglr`s right. On HL it`s all going Westernised. But I just flew a couple of Eastern Front VEF missions, so that`s still there. And at the end of the day I`ve got the offline Eastern campaign to keep me aware of IL2`s heritage...

The point is I now have a CHOICE. I choose to fly Western, I can. I choose to Fly Eastern, I can. Choice, in this regard, is good.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/spitfpetite.jpg

Zentaurus
04-07-2004, 04:26 PM
I like the extension of FB into the western theater, actually i always wanted a sim which covers ALL areas and aspects of WW2 aircombat.

But i kind of agree with Stig on one point: Its a bit strange and seemingly haphazard which planes are modelled and which not and in which sequence they come (or not come) into their virtual being.
Now we are moving on into Pacific while the western theater is only just opened (do we have Tempest, Typhoon, Spit 1, a North African map etc. yet ??)
...and the western stage itsself was started when the eastern was far from complete...for a long time we had no 110, no Stuka, no Ju88 (flyable), no Hs129, no Pe2....all very common and usefull planes...

and we are still not having some of those, but we have Gotha and co....weird...
Now, we know Oleg just took a lot of what 3rd party has developped, but 1:C clearly has and had the option to encourage the production of necessary and elemental planes as those mentioned, instead we get a stream of "what if planes"....
Something is out of focus here, seriousness with modelling a historic scenario in depth i d say.
So, even if i dont share Stiglrs strange control fantasys or Eastern Front addiction at all i give him a point for bringing up a certain dissatisfaction about the way the game is developping in terms of historical authenticity (regarding the planesets and maps) and seeming priorities of the developpers to appeal to larger masses of fastfoodflightsim gamers.

II/JG54_Zent

http://www.martinvonelm.de/BilderIL2FB/bannerherzII.jpeg (http://groups.msn.com/IIGruppeJagdgeschwader54)

XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 04:42 PM
Fastfood flightsimmers. Good analogy.

Greasy, fattening and ultimately artery-clogging. Tasty, true, but not very nourishing.

And the uniformed masses gobble it up by the bagful. And walk around with their thick guts hanging out of the bottom of their shirts, overlapping their belts.

Exactly.

boohaa
04-07-2004, 04:45 PM
Do you think that if Hyperlobby goes full west front that it will stay this way.People are having fun but the lure of Yak's and Mig's is strong...Be sure http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif

WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 05:21 PM
so when are we going to start seeing some of Stiglers historical Coop's & Dogfight rooms ?

i mean he cares so much about it being historical that they must be going to be highly detailed

VMF-214_HaVoK
04-07-2004, 05:52 PM
USA/RAF Vs GER seems to be the most popular plane sets at the moment. And why not? Its historical. But the one thing that cracks me up the most, is that all these people whine because VVS is being left out, but when you join a game with all planes almost nobody flys Russian aircraft anymore. Why? Well because most have learned that you cant beat VVS at the deck very often so most dogfights happen at a minimum of 2000 meters. Easy to drag a VVS plane into deep water from there. So those people who depended on VVS planes for cheap and easy points are finding out that they kill less and die more these days.
But here is the best solution to your complaint. HOST your own game and dont complain how others choose to run the server that they host.

http://www.flightjournal.com/fj/images/hellcat_head_short.jpg

SeaFireLIV
04-07-2004, 06:04 PM
I have to say again. Stiglr`s right. I didn`t expect to agree with him, but I won`t hold back just cos I have some disagreements with his ways.

Losing the Eastern Front so fast on HL is grim. I`ve also noticed a somewhat unappreciative attitude developing that seems to say, "Thanx for the Russian Stuff, Oleg, but now bugger off and give us only West stuff." Anyway, I`ll always fly the Eastern front (often in the spit) and the Western Front.

SeaFireLIV...

http://img12.photobucket.com/albums/v31/SeaFireLIV/spitfpetite.jpg

Maple_Tiger
04-07-2004, 06:16 PM
*I've started to notice on HyperLobby an interesting trend: servers purposely set up without ANY VVS planes on them*


I haven't noticed this so called trend http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif


*Normandy ONLY. USAF/RAF vs. Germany.*



Normandy is a western map, atleast the last time i checked it was. It didn't no it was wronge, having some what historical plane sets http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif


Why do you care what planes people fly? Who cares.

Whats wronge with a P-51 on a Crimea map? Mayby the server likes the Crimea map? Not all DF servers are historical.

If you don't like the game you can always buy another, instead of whinning about pointless stuff.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

jensenpark
04-07-2004, 06:22 PM
Wow...3 pages of post in one day for this thread...someone has hit a nerve.

I too lament the shift to western planeset, but admit I enjoy the fact I can get a few kills now. P51 and P38 seem easier to knock down than those freakin' La7's.
Course it may just be people haven't gotten used to their new planes.

http://www.unicover.com/images/G6A876.JPG

Hawgdog
04-07-2004, 06:23 PM
What is it about spring and the knuckleheads popping up? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/crazy.gif
Oleg screwing up?
Thats like Rosie blaming the forks for being fat.

http://img5.photobucket.com/albums/v22/HawgDog/sharkdog.gif
When you get to Hell, tell 'em HawgDog sent you!

BS87
04-07-2004, 06:55 PM
Well, i dont see any governments, or economies around, so i dont understand who this can involve laissez faire?

XyZspineZyX
04-07-2004, 07:01 PM
Wow. Knock me over with a feather.

First, SeaFire agrees with me??? On anything??? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif That's enough to produce a dead faint. Thanks for the support, though!

Then, a couple guys pipe in with exactly the same sort of hypocritical crap I mentioned.

"What's wrong with a historical Normandy?" Well, nothing, really, but coming from the same people who thought nothing of clogging the sky with P-51s over Kursk and Smolensk earlier, it's more than a little self-serving.

All your actions and policies simply hinge on whether you get your Stang/Spit/"fill in the name of the plane" or not, whether it belongs or not.

And by the way, I don't really care so much whether it's East Front, West Front, Pacific or whereever. I'm more concerned that some historical nature is observed, in planesets maps, and situations. *Context*.

Maple_Tiger
04-07-2004, 07:22 PM
"What's wrong with a historical Normandy?" Well, nothing, really, but coming from the same people who thought nothing of clogging the sky with P-51s over Kursk and Smolensk earlier, it's more than a little self-serving.

Like i said, who cares what planes people like to fly. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*And by the way, I don't really care so much whether it's East Front, West Front, Pacific or whereever. I'm more concerned that some historical nature is observed, in planesets maps, and situations. *Context*.

Why would you be concerned with how people choose to run a server?

If something like this realy bothers you,then you might want to consider another sim.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.

Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 10:34 PM
ok Stigler lets get this stright first B4 i ask any other questions ....


you want Maddox Games to limit the FMB so that everyone can only play FB just the way you like ?

& your blaming them for it not being that way now ?

WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 10:35 PM
CAN YOU POST HERE WHAT KIND OF MAP YOU'D LIKE TO SEE THE MOST STIGLER ?

im talking specifics here

1) which map

2) which bases

3) what countries participating

4) what planes for both sides ?

WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 10:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:

It's so hypocritical, too: it's fine for them to have P-51s flying over the Crimea (although that never happened) and swarming Kursk, but once we have a Normany map, suddenly it's a Western-plane only thing: after all, there weren't any Yak 3s over France, were there? *Now* it's time to be historically correct?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


i have not seen once anyone saying that historical correctness should be put aside so they could fly the P-51 on a russian map

who is it that you are saying is hypocritical ?

AdmiralWarlord
04-07-2004, 10:42 PM
It is pretty simple - throughout the cold war western countries kept bashing soviet aircraft - but when this sim came out - most of their biased assumptions came crashing down. So now obviously they fall back to the western front. Let people fly what they want, it is just sad that most people are clueless about eastern front.

WUAF_Badsight
04-07-2004, 10:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by crazyivan1970:

G6/AS won world champoinship. I think it pretty much sums it up. Even mighty Frank couldn`t keep up.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

there hasnet been any world championship

the ICAS was a 12 squad LAN event

the german gamers using the Hayate started the fight against the russian gamers at a lower Alt

anyone who can manage E can dominate in that situation regardless of the plane

JR_Greenhorn
04-07-2004, 10:54 PM
I know that as an offline player, I'm not entitled to an opinion, but why do some think they have the right to dictate how others use the sim they bought? This time around, the happy-go-lucky Stiglr wants Oleg to limit what I can do with my copy of the sim offline, so that he can be satisfied with his "context" online. Is the thought to terrrible to bear that offline players may be enjoying this sim without the proper "context?"

Is there no server that offers what Stiglr seeks? Can he not be troubled to make one himself? I've never played online, yet I think I could probably figure out how to set up either a DF or a Co-op mission. Is it really that hard to do?



How then, should I use the BI-1? I know many oppose its inclusion in the sim, yet I like the plane very much. I enjoy experimenting with it, and rarely fly it with other planes in the sky, much less enemies. Is this experimentation not the correct historical context for this particular plane? Need I the correct map for the plane to fly over before I may use it? Shall I limit myself to the number of hours logged historically?

Nub_322Sqn
04-08-2004, 03:25 AM
So basicly Stiglr refuses to host his own games because.......?

And now he want's everybody else to bow to his needs......why?

He either has no friends online (On both sides) or a bad connection + crappy pc or a combination of all 3.

So what he basicly want's is to make his limitations our limitations.

Okay...

http://www.xs4all.nl/~rcma/banners/Nubarusbanner.jpg

WUAF_MJ_Prop
04-08-2004, 05:31 AM
Go fly the CFS series then

http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/images/mk3562.jpg http://www.raf.mod.uk/bbmf/images/ps9151.jpg
Spitfires in mirror may be closer than they appear

pacettid
04-08-2004, 05:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bearcat99:
This kind of stuff just ticks me off to no end....unneccessary BS. If you would take as much time to set up a coop or DF server to run on HL and hook up with some of the short sighted, narrow minded, nationalisticly challenged crybabies who agree with you in this thread maybe your problem would be solved. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I could not agree more and I could not have said it better if I tried.

All the best, Don

jurinko
04-08-2004, 06:25 AM
I used to fly on full real German/US+UK servers recently, the War_Clouds and Grey_Wolf namely. Both are excellent ones. It was great fun and challenge whichever side I played for. Really it depended on player, since the physics seemed to work like in real world.

Last time I entered FR server, took 190A-5 vs 42â´La-5, climbed to 5km, then found a bunch of them in 500m, attacked first time in 700kph, missed, zoomed back to 3km, attacked again (hey, those chaps were suddenly quite high) filled the wing of one La full of holes, but no effect, zoomed back, after the third attack and zoom back the remaining threee were above me. WTF. They all started in 500m at 300kph. Disengaged and flew home, landed. Thanks please.

----------------------
Letka.13/Liptow @ HL

"With the advent of the FW 190A, this was not as critical as it once had been. The aircraft was a superb dogfighter, and its pilots used it as such. The previous summer, faced with slashing attacks by the 109s, the constant complaint of RAF pilots was that 'Jerry' didn't stay and fight, totally ignoring the fact that in the 109 this was tactically correct. Now they were repaid in spades: in his new Fw 190A, 'Jerry' stayed and fought as never before."

FA_Maddog
04-08-2004, 06:55 AM
Bearcat99, you said it all!!!!! Thanks!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif



Originally posted by AdmiralWarlord:

"It is pretty simple - throughout the cold war western countries kept bashing soviet aircraft - but when this sim came out - most of their biased assumptions came crashing down....."

Too bad that the biased assumptions on the eastern side can't do the same.

[This message was edited by FA_Maddog on Thu April 08 2004 at 07:08 AM.]

essemm
04-08-2004, 07:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Stiglr:
Open letter to Oleg.

Don't say I didn't tell you this would happen.

The laissez faire of the IL-2/FB/AEP system has come back to bite you.

I've started to notice on HyperLobby an interesting trend: servers purposely set up without ANY VVS planes on them. Normandy ONLY. USAF/RAF vs. Germany.

Seeminlgly, now that people have gotten their way, and whined incessantly to broaden the scope of the IL-2 system beyond the "too-restrictive" Eastern Front, and you've bowed to their wishes and packed a bunch of Western favorites into the mix... now they're repaying you by ignoring VVS planes.

Wasn't one of the original goals of IL-2 to have a sim that would finally shed some light into what was the biggest conflict of WWII? To educate Westerners that the Russians *also* turned out some pretty good birds that flew toe to toe with the German iron?

I told ya it'd happen, didn't I? I said that once you have a Spit and a P-51, you'd be hard pressed to find a Yak or a MiG or a LaGG online. Well, one's not exactly "hard pressed" yet, but give it time; it'll happen. The seeds have just now started to grow.

It's so hypocritical, too: it's fine for them to have P-51s flying over the Crimea (although that never happened) and swarming Kursk, but once we have a Normany map, suddenly it's a Western-plane only thing: after all, there weren't any Yak 3s over France, were there? *Now* it's time to be historically correct?

Since you're hard at work designing BoB with the "new improved system" I hope you take note of this and correct one design philosophy failing that's dogging IL-2: namely, not "steering" your audience to explore the history and the *plausible* what-ifs, and making the "wild and wacky" matchup and the "hardly flew" aircraft somewhat harder to inject into play.

We're seeing in IL-2 land what has happened in so many other flight sims and games: left to their own devices, the players will descend to the lowest common denominator, and the gameplay will be much less likely to look like history, and more likely to look like "Quake" and "Doom", crawling with (not to mention, steered by) players whose philosophy of warfare and tactics never gets any deeper than the "my Dad's bigger'n YOUR Dad" ueberplane mindset.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You have got to be kidding me. You are angry because the demand for one plane is higher than others? You are neurotic. Why does it bother you if people like some planes more than others? What does it mean to you?

Here's a little tidbit of information: NOT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO HAVE THE SAME WANTS AND LIKES THAT YOU DO. Get over yourself.

Was the original goal of the game to educate me (as a westerner)? Here's another tidbit of information:
THIS IS A GAME. IT'S GOAL IS TO ENTERTAIN IT'S USERS...NOT TO EDUCATE! If people want education, they will go to school.

You are a real piece of work. I have a solution for you though. Click on your start menu, go to control panel, click on add/remove programs, select IL2FB, and click on uninstall. CFS3 is still for sale. Don't let the door hit you on your way out.

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Bearcat99
04-08-2004, 07:53 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JR_Greenhorn:
I know that as an offline player, I'm not entitled to an opinion, but why do some think they have the right to dictate how others use the sim they bought?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And why in the world would you thnk that? You fly this sim...your opinion is just as valid as anyone elses... It doesnt matter what settings you use, what kind of rig you have, or how long you have been flying the sim..... your input is just as valuable and imortant as mine or some of the guys that have been here since the IL2 DEMO was released.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
i have not seen once anyone saying that historical correctness should be put aside so they could fly the P-51 on a russian map
who is it that you are saying is hypocritical ?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And not only that if you look at the P-51 skins that came with FB..even when it was unflyable, those skins match some of the the squadrons that were actually doing the escorts into the East..... a few are missing like the 332nd, but several of them are there like the 325th and the 31st. P-38s,B-17s,B-25s,P-47s all flew on the Eastern front....... and they were flown by Americans.. did they go to Lenningrad? No..but they were in Hungary and Romania and of course Germany itself.

Admiral Warloed wrote:
It is pretty simple - throughout the cold war western countries kept bashing soviet aircraft - but when this sim came out - most of their biased assumptions came crashing down. So now obviously they fall back to the western front. Let people fly what they want, it is just sad that most people are clueless about eastern front.

And here you come with your same biased assumptions....... sure many Americans in particular since when many people here gripe about the west they mean America.... were totally clueless about the Soviet airforce. I know I was. Oleg & 1C opened up a whole new world for me with this sim and I am floored.... but most of us now know and can appreciate the engineering genius and piloting skills of the Lavochkins and Pokryshkins...... contrary to popular belief ignorance is NOT bliss. Many of us fall back to Western front planes because thats what we know, it's what we like and many of us have always wanted to experience our favorite planes under FMs like these. You guys rag us for doing western plane sets when, because the east was so underrepresented for so long in sims (at least decently), you guys are doing the exact same thing by clinging to the east, only you are showing your shortsightedness by having the chutzpah to insist we share your passion and do the same. We have our own..thanks... and there has never been a Mustang, or a Lightning like the ones in this sim and I am delighted that I have the opportunity to enjoy them. At least you did end your statement with let them fly what they want. BTW....... a lot less people are clueless about the eastern front today than there were 5 years ago believe you me. I know this is a sim and all but it is a great learning tool because it is so well done that you cant help but have a fire lit under your curiosity about the planes and places represented her. Untill I started flying in IL2 June 21st was just the first day of summer..........



<UL TYPE=SQUARE>http://www.jodavidsmeyer.com/combat/bookstore/tuskegeebondposter.jpg (http://tuskegeeairmen.org/airmen/who.html)[/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>vflyer@comcast.net [/list]<UL TYPE=SQUARE>99thPursuit Squadron IL2 Forgotten Battles (http://www.geocities.com/rt_bearcat)[/list]
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[This message was edited by Bearcat99 on Thu April 08 2004 at 07:15 AM.]

Cardinal25
04-08-2004, 08:50 AM
I think you are starting to see US/RAF vs. Luftwaffe only plane sets as it is painfully clear that most VVS plane are optimistically modeled (both FM, guns and DM) while US and Luftwaffe AC are not.

We'll see less Spit's on-line when the E bleed issues are fixed.

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BpGemini
04-08-2004, 09:23 AM
This is a normal occurrence; many of us have been playing the Eastern Front for a long time. There are new options now and people want to give those options a whirl. Whatâ's nice about this is once people get their fill of Pacific and Western front action they may return to a more pure version of the Eastern front. Mainly since people can fly their favorite plane types in other theaters there may be less forcing of trying to fit a certain plane that maybe didnâ't belong in that theater. More options are a good thing. Btw, my opinion is about the historical based servers.

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Bearcat99
04-08-2004, 10:01 AM
Yeah Gem thats what I like about Ivans server..... I go in there and I fly planes I wouldnt normally fly. And I have a ball.

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XyZspineZyX
04-08-2004, 10:45 AM
@WUAF:

It's not just a matter of "what specific maps and planes *I* would like to see".

Do some thinking for once, will you?

Even if Oleg had put some "dogfight sets" in the maps and the scenario designer that would produce "Moscow '41", "Stalingrad '42", "Kursk '43" and other pivotal battles, with the representative planes preselected, and left it up to players to actually go in and have to select or deselect planes to add the silly ones... even this token effort would have made a difference in how hosts create DFs. Simply put, most wouldn't put in the extra effort to make things stupid and ahistorical; they'd go with what was easier and probably select a "pre-packaged set" and, as a result, the *majority* of DFs would likely have more historical viability and more balance. And perhaps not every DF would include (and by extension artificially limit the planeset to) the usual '44/'45 ueberplanes.

This is what I mean by, the developer can exercise control in gameplay, by simple interface and even presentation choices.

And again, it's about "balance"; sure there would be a few guys who really wanted "Bi-1 vs. Me-262/Me163"; but the key word is, a FEW. You'd have many more DFs that actually looked like the Eastern Front than you would ones that looked like Crimson Skies. You'd certainly have more DFs that featured early and midwar planesets. You'd have more variety, and more plausible gameplay all around.

As for this statement:
WUAF said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have not seen once anyone saying that historical correctness should be put aside so they could fly the P-51 on a russian map<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you haven't seen that, you either haven't looked for it, ignored it when you read it, or you're just plain mistaken. It was said PLENTY back in the days when we were debating whether we ought to even HAVE the Pony in the planeset. The argument then, as now was, "I *like* the plane, and that's why we should have it."

x__CRASH__x
04-08-2004, 10:53 AM
I think we should all be thankful of the opportunity to fly all different kinds of aircraft. I think we should also care what others like to fly, and we should share our feelings when we enjoy this great game we all enjoy!


Have a great day!!

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faustnik
04-08-2004, 11:06 AM
Stig,

I really think you are barking up the wrong tree. The Aces addon has provided us with two excellent new maps for historical Western front missions. Many of us are using the new tools to develope historical COOPs. The western planeset is excellent with the U.S.A.A.F. and late LW a/c providing all the little FM quirks you can ask for without the "optimistic" modeling we have seen with other sets.

The developers have provided the users with the tools to create excellent historical scenarios. I could not be more pleased with the theater expansion that Aces allows.

There is a new crowd on HL these days. Lots of them seem to enjoy different settings and situations than some of us "old school" IL-2 guys. The "old school" crowd is still there however, and still running historical situations on both the Eastern and Western Fronts.

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