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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 05:41 AM
First and foremost, this is not a post intended to start any arguments or anything of the sort. I have honest questions, to which I'd really like honest answers. Anyone who's flown online with/against me knows I have a great fondness of the FW-190 series aircraft. It's pretty much all I fly; I think it's a beautiful series of aircraft. I also think FB is one seriously great game/sim, and am not here to bash it or it's developers in any way.
Obviously, since I only truly fly the 190 series, I can't say anything about the other aircraft, except I shouldn't really be catching p-47s in a dive; something is amiss there. However, things just don't seem right with the 190 series. I can't keep the thing flying when attempting to reach service ceiling (A8) of 11,410 meters, it fails to maintain airspeed well below that altitude. Specified max level speed was 653 kph, and I've only reached that in a dive.
"The Focke-Wulf was not only faster but its superior handling and faster roll rate gave it an edge in the hands of even less experienced pilots. Such sparkling performance combined with the 190's superior armament presented Allied pilots with a real challenge until German pilot training began to drop in quality." (www.aviation-history.com (http://www.aviation-history.com))
It, along with the P-47, were deadly aircraft. "P-47's often came back from combat shot full of holes, their wings and control surfaces in tatters. On one occasion a Thunderbolt pilot, Lieutenant Chetwood, hit a steel pole after strafing a train over Occupied France. The collision sliced four feet off one of his wings--yet he was able to fly back safely to his base in England." (www.aviation-history.com (http://www.aviation-history.com)) Both able to take massive damage, both very fast, etc etc. This does not seem to be the case in FB these days. However, those are the only references I have accessible online, but talking to ww2 vet pilots tells the same story.
I don't know if there were "aircraft tunings" to "balance the game". We can look at data and historical accounts all day long, and complain all we want. I think there are flaws, it would be nice to see them fixed. I tried the P-39 tonight for the first time ever, and oh my, the thing flies like it's in zero gravity, when in reality, it was considered a terrible air combat aircraft, and was resorted to ground attack roles. It would be nice to see all the planes damage models and flight models correct. I don't think the wing being blown off a 190 by a short burst of mg fire is realistic. I also don't think the performance loss after..how has it been put...the "paint is chipped on the plane" is realistic. I think the roll rate is probably fairly accurate, as a 190 tactic for evasion was to snap roll the opposing direction of the turn combined with a dive, which was apparantly effective, as the pursuing aircraft couldn't roll with it and the pilot would lose sight. I also don't think that the P-47 should be as fragile as it is, there is no way I should be able to wax one with such a short burst of mg. I hope all the fm's and dm's could be corrected. I know there are a lot of other aircraft that need fixing as well, but I don't fly them, so I can't say what's right and what's wrong with them. Except the "zero gravity" P-39 flight model...that was amusing to me. Oh well, again, I hope things get fixed so we ALL can further enjoy the product.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 05:41 AM
First and foremost, this is not a post intended to start any arguments or anything of the sort. I have honest questions, to which I'd really like honest answers. Anyone who's flown online with/against me knows I have a great fondness of the FW-190 series aircraft. It's pretty much all I fly; I think it's a beautiful series of aircraft. I also think FB is one seriously great game/sim, and am not here to bash it or it's developers in any way.
Obviously, since I only truly fly the 190 series, I can't say anything about the other aircraft, except I shouldn't really be catching p-47s in a dive; something is amiss there. However, things just don't seem right with the 190 series. I can't keep the thing flying when attempting to reach service ceiling (A8) of 11,410 meters, it fails to maintain airspeed well below that altitude. Specified max level speed was 653 kph, and I've only reached that in a dive.
"The Focke-Wulf was not only faster but its superior handling and faster roll rate gave it an edge in the hands of even less experienced pilots. Such sparkling performance combined with the 190's superior armament presented Allied pilots with a real challenge until German pilot training began to drop in quality." (www.aviation-history.com (http://www.aviation-history.com))
It, along with the P-47, were deadly aircraft. "P-47's often came back from combat shot full of holes, their wings and control surfaces in tatters. On one occasion a Thunderbolt pilot, Lieutenant Chetwood, hit a steel pole after strafing a train over Occupied France. The collision sliced four feet off one of his wings--yet he was able to fly back safely to his base in England." (www.aviation-history.com (http://www.aviation-history.com)) Both able to take massive damage, both very fast, etc etc. This does not seem to be the case in FB these days. However, those are the only references I have accessible online, but talking to ww2 vet pilots tells the same story.
I don't know if there were "aircraft tunings" to "balance the game". We can look at data and historical accounts all day long, and complain all we want. I think there are flaws, it would be nice to see them fixed. I tried the P-39 tonight for the first time ever, and oh my, the thing flies like it's in zero gravity, when in reality, it was considered a terrible air combat aircraft, and was resorted to ground attack roles. It would be nice to see all the planes damage models and flight models correct. I don't think the wing being blown off a 190 by a short burst of mg fire is realistic. I also don't think the performance loss after..how has it been put...the "paint is chipped on the plane" is realistic. I think the roll rate is probably fairly accurate, as a 190 tactic for evasion was to snap roll the opposing direction of the turn combined with a dive, which was apparantly effective, as the pursuing aircraft couldn't roll with it and the pilot would lose sight. I also don't think that the P-47 should be as fragile as it is, there is no way I should be able to wax one with such a short burst of mg. I hope all the fm's and dm's could be corrected. I know there are a lot of other aircraft that need fixing as well, but I don't fly them, so I can't say what's right and what's wrong with them. Except the "zero gravity" P-39 flight model...that was amusing to me. Oh well, again, I hope things get fixed so we ALL can further enjoy the product.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 06:25 AM
I guess you gave all the answers to your own questions.. But I agree.

rgds

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 06:26 AM
I think what may be happening with you is that your using IAS to gauge your speed.See the 190-A8 reaches its topspeed at 660kph at an alt of 5000Meters in FB which is close to your suggested speed of 653kph.

You may be suprised to hear that the FW is the only planeset that hasnt been updated to new DM.This will be done in next patch and I think your gonna be suprised that you go down even easier.If you think your right about the wings being blown off to easy just keep at it with suggestions and maybe it will be looked at and possibly fixed if it warrants it.Or maybe just keep quiet about it as so many people here believe we should do.Dunno mate??


Cant say about P39 being fixed but enuff people have complained about it so I feel it will be.I completley agree that the Jugs DM needs to be relooked at also but fear that times running out for this one since so much tuning is going into the German birds/i/smilies/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 07:23 AM
My opinion is that the FW190A series [note: doras seem to have the new DM] will probably just behave more consistently. Hopefully, the update of the DM will mean that a few hits in the wing will no longer shave a good 100kmh off the top speed, but at the same time, I'd hope that 4 x NS37 hits would be pretty unsurvivable.

The P-39 in FB has been claimed to be at least 2 x faster in the climb than the best available test data. I don't think that this is 'error margin' or the result of testing a D model rather than a Q model. From reading the post Redwulf_1 made over on the german speaking forum, it seems like the P-39s weight will be checked. I made a post not long ago now saying that it felt too 'light' while flying around, so I guess that's good news :>




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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 08:55 AM
I hope the FW-190 gets:

-Proper DM, but is still tough.
-Decrease in roll-rate at very high speeds.
-Decreased elevator response at very high speeds (though this should remain one of the 190's strengths).
-The "auto" feature working properly, as it is now 100% prop pitch gives best performance.
-Removal of "the bar" (IMHO it has been proved). I can live with it as is though.
-Elimination of "1 or 2 hits = big performance hit" bug.
-Elimination of "sawing off wing with one bullet from long distance" bug.

Hopefully the last two will come with re-worked damaged model.


I hope 109 gets:

-"Auto" performance working as well as manual.
-Tougher damage model concerning control surfaces.
-Removal of dirt(?) from cockpit glass.


I hope the P-39:

-Adheres to the laws of physics.
-Regains its character.
-Slight decrease in roll-rate.

I hope La's get:

-More accurate (decrease) climb rate.
-Slight increase in energy bleed in high spped turns.

I hope Lagg gets:

-Proper DM.

I hope Mig gets:

-Decrease in roll-rate at high speeds.
-Slight increas in energy bleed.

I hope Yaks get:

-Slight increase in energy bleed in high speed turns.
-Slight decrease in climb rate.

I hope P-47 gets:

-Increase in roll-rate
-Bug fixed where I can kill them with one shot from long distance with explosion.
-Slight increase of top speed at sea-level
-More stability, less dispersal when firing.

I hope Macchi-202 gets:

-The graphical bugs when damaged fixed.
-Better AI than fly low and not climb.

I hope P-40 gets:

-Re-worked FM, this thing seems way too slow. It shouldn't climb well but as it is now it never seems to approach historical or indicated speeds.
-Less dispersal when firing.

I hope Spitfire and Tempest:

-Get here soon. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif


Like I said in another post, once the Lagg and FW-190 get their proper DM, I think the DM's and weapon effectiveness will be pretty good.



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"Ice Warriors", by Nicolas Trudgian.



Message Edited on 09/26/0308:07AM by kyrule2

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 10:47 AM
Very well put Kyrule2! And I agree with virtualy everything u noted. Its nice to finally see a truly unbiased request for proper FM and DM.
S~
47|FC

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 10:50 AM
Oh! Do us all a favor and repost that about 1000 more times and maybe Oleg and team will read it and finaly get the idea on how to do it right.
S~
47|FC

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 11:57 AM
Well...lol...there's no way I want to keep posting on this, (Don't want to turn into a "whiner")it's just something that I honestly believe needs fixed. There's no need to have a "balance" (hate to use that word) in performance, every plane had it's strengths and weaknesses; their respective pilots learned those, and exploited them.

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 03:30 PM
Agreed. Simple as that...

"Bunch of monkeys on the ceiling, sir! Grab your egg-and-fours and let's get the bacon delivered!"

XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 04:07 PM
At low altitudes, P-47 dive performance has nothing in special. It dives slower than most planes up to max speed in level flight. The only good thing is the higher dive speed limit. But the difference is too small for even recuperate the distance lost initially. For now enjoy it's overmodelled roll and dive, be thankful for it, because more I don't think is possible to get.

P-47 dive was good strictly at altitude, where it's powerloading became better than most fighters.


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XyZspineZyX
09-26-2003, 04:30 PM
Huck, lay off the disinformation crap. Stop coming in and starting $hit with US planes. Just because Tagert and crew do it to you, don't sink to their level.

XyZspineZyX
09-27-2003, 05:31 AM
"Fw 190A General Characteristics:
A superb airplane, every inch a fighter. It could do a half roll at cruising speed in one second. Taking this in conjunction with the airplane's high top speed and rate of climb one expected its pilots to exploit its high speed qualities to the fullest without staying in there to "mix it up" in a low speed, flaps down full throttle, gut-wrenching dog fight.
They did. The 190 pilots had a good airplane and some good advice. Nearly all of my encounters with the 190 were at high speeds. On at least two occasions when I met them, my Mustang started porposing, which means I was into compressibility, probably around 550 mph. I don't know what my air speed indicator was reading, I wasn't watching it.
On another occasion, I jumped one directly over the city of Paris and fired all my ammo, but he was only smoking heavily after a long chase over the town. Assuming I was getting 10 percent hits, that airplane must have had 200 holes in it. It was a rugged machine.


Mean weight 8580
Engine BMW 801D
Horsepower 1600
Power loading, lbs./HP 5.36
Wing loading, lbs./sq.ft. 41.7
Prop diameter, ft. 10.86
Wing Geometry:
Area, sq.ft. 205
Span, ft. 34.5
Mean chord, ft. 5.95
Aspect Ratio 5.8
Dihedral, degrees 5
Sweepback, degrees 5.5
Root chord, ft. 7.45
Tip chord, ft. 4.05
Thickness Ratio, percent 12
Maximum thickness location Between 25 and 30 percent
Top speed, mph 408/20,600 ft.

Engine and Propeller:
The BMW 801D was a 14 cylinder, twin-row radial with direct fuel injection. A 10.9 foot diameter, 3-bladed VDM prop was used and was provided with hand lever or automatic pitch control. The 801D radial air-cooled engine first appeared on the Dornier Do 217 and the Fw 190. Its most novel feature was the oil cooler system which was a number of finned tubes shaped into a ring of tubes a little larger in diameter than the cooling fan. This ring was fitted into the rounded front portion of the cowling just aft of the fan.
I don't think this was a good idea. For example, my principal aiming point was always the forward portion of an enemy ship; the engine, cockpit, wing root section. If you get any hits at all, even only a few, you're bound to put one or two slugs into the engine compartment. Having a couple of bullets riccochet off the engine block and tear up some ignition harness is not too bad at all, at least not fatal. But to have all those thin-walled oil cooling tubes ahead of the engine is bad news. Any hits or riccochets in the engine section are bound to puncture the oil tubes. Then the whole engine is immersed in oil spray, and sometimes it would flash over into a fire. All of the 12 Focke-Wulfs that I shot down sent off a trail of dense, boiling oil smoke heavy enough to fog up my gun camera lens and windshield if I were so close.
Wings and Controls:
Again, as in the case of the Me 109, no trim tabs adjustable in flight from the cockpit were provided for the aileron and rudder. European designers seem to have acquired the notion that this was a nuisance or unnecessary. Not at all; when going into a dive, it's very easy for the pilot to reach down with his left hand and flick in a couple of half turns of rudder trim. It's not only desireable, but necessary to eliminate side slip for good gunnery. The Fw 190, however, did have electric trim tabs for the elevators.
Performance Evaluation:
The Fw 190's handling qualities were generally excellent. The most impressive feature was the aileron control at high speeds. Stick force per "g" was about 9 pounds upto 300 mph rising to 12 pounds at 400 mph as compared to over 20 pounds for the Me-109.
High speed stalls under "g" load were a little vicious and could be a fatal handicap in combat. If the airplane was pulled in tight and stalled at high speed at 2 "gs" or more with the power on, turning right or left, the left wing would drop violently without warning and the airplane would flick onto its back from a left turn. I scored against a 190 under such circumstances. The message was clear, don't stall it. Our own Bell P-39 Aircobra would do the same thing.
Fighting Qualities:
Excellent high speed, with exceptional maneuverability at those speeds. Range and endurance were markedly improved over the 109. The Focke-Wulf would go 3 hours plus. Visibility with the full view canopy was superb, as it was in the Mustang.

Summary:
Bad points:
(1) Oil cooling tubes at the front of the engines was a poor choice of location. A puncture due to combat damage, or to simple failure covered the engine section with an oil spray.
(2) Lack of aileron and rudder trim controls in the cockpit.
(3) Vicious high speed snap rolls if stalled under significant "g" load.
(4) Poor turning radius due to high wing loading.
Good points:
Everything else was good. In the hands of a competent pilot the 190 was a formidable opponent. The landing approach speed was high and this shakes some pilots up a bit, but I don't think it's anything it's anything to complain about."
Col. "Kit" Carson
Airpower, July 1976
Vol. 6 No. 4