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dannnyjos
07-19-2004, 07:00 PM
Does anybody have any suggestions on how to fight against the 109-K4? We were at a LAN party at a friend's house and playing AEP. One of them got the K4 and was just booming and zooming all of us. We tried to get the La7, Ki84, Dora and even P51. But no one seemed to be able to keep up with the 109. It just has a killer climb speed. Has the K4 always been like that? Is it the 2.01 patch?

Any tactics aginst the Kursfursk will be appreciated. Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:s87PVXL_XAAJ:club.telepolis.com/fondoscez/espacio/muy_raro_cez.jpg

dannnyjos
07-19-2004, 07:00 PM
Does anybody have any suggestions on how to fight against the 109-K4? We were at a LAN party at a friend's house and playing AEP. One of them got the K4 and was just booming and zooming all of us. We tried to get the La7, Ki84, Dora and even P51. But no one seemed to be able to keep up with the 109. It just has a killer climb speed. Has the K4 always been like that? Is it the 2.01 patch?

Any tactics aginst the Kursfursk will be appreciated. Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:s87PVXL_XAAJ:club.telepolis.com/fondoscez/espacio/muy_raro_cez.jpg

GT182
07-19-2004, 07:08 PM
Yeah, practice your heart out. That's the only way you'll learn to fly a favroite a/c and be able to fly it effectively. Your kill ratio will improve with more and more practice. You'll know your a/c's limitations and how to overcome them to nail that enemy in front of you. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

"GT182" / "Stab/JG51_vonSpinmeister"
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"Fly to Survive, Survive to Fly"

carguy_
07-19-2004, 07:14 PM
If you go over 4000m you`re entering his territory and you have to fight on his terms.Just stay at 2000m and make him lose energy to bring the fight to the deck.

Other choice is coalt.Just be as high or higher than him and he`s toasted really.

Oh,P51 is better over 6000m,lower fight is risky.

http://carguy.w.interia.pl/tracki/sig23d.jpg

dannnyjos
07-19-2004, 07:33 PM
Well, the problem was that the guy would kill you and then stay high, so when you clicked "refly" he was already 1000-1500 meters above you. Any ideas/tactics on how to engage the 109-K4 at an altitude disadvantage? And also, which plane would be better to carry out that idea/tactic?

Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:s87PVXL_XAAJ:club.telepolis.com/fondoscez/espacio/muy_raro_cez.jpg

OldMan____
07-19-2004, 07:43 PM
K4 is not THAT different from any later Gustav. So its not the plane.. it is the tatic used. Just pay attention at him.. keep him on sight and when he close in make a fast turn...an climba little bit.. he will miss.. climb and try again.. repeat this all times.. in 3 ou 4 times you should be higher than him if he failed to notice your move. If not.. well that is the reason Hartman got 352 kills :P

If brute force does not solve your problem... you are not using enough!

Lt.Davis
07-19-2004, 08:13 PM
IMHO, every one have develop their own style of flying. For example, after BnZ, which direction he will go, and will climb to his favourite atl. Than search for target etc...

The key words are:-
1. understand your enemy
2. enemy habits
3. patients
4. 109 series will lose advantage for flying solo.

I don't think it's the plane that really cause the different, because i happen to use 109F4 down 1 spitXI and 2 p-51 in 1 sortie @ ubi.com lobby.

Of cause my F4 not faster than any of the plane above, it's just that i never give out following them until they make the mistake. Onc they make the mistake, they are dead meat!!!

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"

Fw-190D-9
07-19-2004, 09:41 PM
The B&Z tactic is a very effective one, especialy if your employing it agiant people who don't know how to guard aginst it. I have been in many rooms with my D-9 just B&Zing and many times the othert team has screamed, "Some Boyd Get that Dora!"

LEXX_Luthor
07-19-2004, 09:49 PM
To Beat this, make a "real life" onwhine mission with La~7 escorting bombers to K4 base, and if K4 spend all the time leaning on La~7 to make lots of Happy Points, then K4 lose.


__________________
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:
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Close this book forever and don't open anymore!" ~Oleg_Maddox http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-surprised.gif

Zayets
07-20-2004, 12:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lt.Davis:
IMHO, every one have develop their own style of flying. For example, after BnZ, which direction he will go, and will climb to his favourite atl. Than search for target etc...

The key words are:-
1. understand your enemy
2. enemy habits
3. patients
4. 109 series will lose advantage for flying solo.

I don't think it's the plane that really cause the different, because i happen to use 109F4 down 1 spitXI and 2 p-51 in 1 sortie @ ubi.com lobby.

Of cause my F4 not faster than any of the plane above, it's just that i never give out following them until they make the mistake. Onc they make the mistake, they are dead meat!!!

"Biar berputih tulang, jangan berputih mata"
Translated:
"Let the whites of your bones, but do not show the whites of your eyes"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Obviously, number 4 would be "patience".Why would one need patients when flying a K4? Just a thought ...

Zayets out

http://server5.uploadit.org/files/Zayets-sigIAR.jpg

F19_Ob
07-20-2004, 04:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dannnyjos:
Does anybody have any suggestions on how to fight against the 109-K4? We were at a LAN party at a friend's house and playing AEP. One of them got the K4 and was just booming and zooming all of us. We tried to get the La7, Ki84, Dora and even P51. But no one seemed to be able to keep up with the 109. It just has a killer climb speed. Has the K4 always been like that? Is it the 2.01 patch?

Any tactics aginst the Kursfursk will be appreciated. Thanks http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:s87PVXL_XAAJ:club.telepolis.com/fondoscez/espacio/muy_raro_cez.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My guess Is that the guy in the 109k4 was familiar with it and diciplined in BnZ tactics, wich make him hard to beat in any ac.
A slight speed advantage can be enough to win over an opponent. The K4 isnt so superior in climb as many belive, but when U meet it with lower energy it "seems" better like any ac with some E. If U try to catch another La7 U will notice U cant= he flies at same speed. That is why its so difficult to catch your own wingman after takeoff, because he has 10 or 20 km/h more speed than u and will slowly pull away. So the difference between a K4 and a La7 is pretty small.
------------------------------------------


There is ways to counter him ofcourse.
If U are in a La7 on low altitude with a BnZ'er above, try to keep the speed up. Remember that the visibility is more obscured in the 109k4. The front+up ,front+side and front+side+up is very bad and forces him to force his ac to see past the bars= loose energy.

When the 109 comes in behind dont just turn horisontally, but dive or climb in the turn. this makes calculating deflection harder for the attacker.
-------------------------
Watch the attacker behind u in the turn, and when he disengages from the attack turn back and spray after him in his climb. This tactic takes some practice, because U want to keep your own energy up so u must be carefull not to turn too hard, just enough to get the enemy to disengage his attack. This is a risky maneuver because the 109 might sacrifice his energy and make a hard speedbleeding turn inside yours and shoot u down. (I use to do that in the 109). This is ofcourse risky for the 109 too.

-------------------------

Sometimes U se a chance to climb up and spray on a BnZ'er in his climb. The enemy mostly have more energy and if he is experienced he will continue to climb knowing u will be out of energy soon, and then he dives on u. This is a bad situation and u must give the enemy as little as possible to shoot at. The best thing is to not dive but to remain horisontal and roll so he only see your profile and not the vulnerable wings. If u dive, it will be easier for the enemy to match your speed and hit U, But if u try to stay horisontal the closing speed will be faster wich makes aimingtime less. Sometimes u just have to dive away, and the best thing is to go down In a hard spiral, preferably bigger than a barrel roll but not to big. And remember to throttle down so the closing speed gets faster. With some luck he might even end up close to your front sector.

--------------------------------------

If U see a friendly BnZoomed Try to get as much altitude outside the fight as possible while your friendly keeps the enemy occupied.
Even if the enemy still have slightly more energy than U, You are the one dictating the fight now. If he goes down after your friendly u cut his corners to get closer and usually he have to leave. Many 109 flyers forgets that an La7 at an altitude and speed somewhere near the 109's is the one with the advantage, especially below 3000m. The La5 is hard to beat but the La7 will have more energy in all aspects. This is what I do and I often catch even Fw190's
-----------------------

When I'm bounced in the La7 close to my airfield I try to conserve speed and keep the enemy occupied as long as possible, hoping that an experienced mate will do the above thing.
As in all planes, try to get as much altitude as possible over your own field. Atleast 2000m before u fly out.



just a few ideas http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

tfu_iain1
07-20-2004, 05:34 AM
also, unrealistic though it is, you can hear him just before he hits you.

if he's in a 109k4 and is BnZing you, it means he is going fast. 109 has poor control response at high speed. if you can see him advancing on your six, just dodge horizontally at the last minute. he wont be able to manoeuver quickly enough to hit you. continue climbing. repeat till he either gets you, goes home, or tries to engage you at a lower speed. if he does the last one, you have a damn good change of getting him. also when he is going fast rolling scissors can save you- again, he cannot manoeuver rapidly enough to achieve a firing solution before he overshoots.

course, it might also be that your friend is a good shot, and he was certainly flying his plane to it's strengths

dannnyjos
07-20-2004, 04:57 PM
Ok guys, thanks for all your tips http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/11.gif.
I'll practice them offline on the QMB against 4 Ace K4's. Hopefully I'll be ready for next weekend's LAN party. Happy flying http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:s87PVXL_XAAJ:club.telepolis.com/fondoscez/espacio/muy_raro_cez.jpg

Atomic_Marten
07-20-2004, 05:46 PM
Mate practice vs. LA7's and Yak3's; higher alt-better. K4 offline is cannon foder even on ace lvl. That is if u don't get shot head-on.

I just think that guy is using K4 'cause of http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/heart.gif towards her. Otherwise for BnZ IMO Dora has better capabilities. I don't ride Bf109 to much lately, so I'm begining to lose the feel, but you should be able to engage him with U.S. planes set more effectively for chasing him on high alt.

mortoma
07-20-2004, 07:04 PM
I don't know how this works against human opponents but I found that I can beat any AI Russian or American plane in offwhine career. I found that even if you goof and lose your advantage in the K4 ( against AI ), you can easily regain it by climbing with MW-50 and full throttle at 210KPH. You saw that right, 210Kph!!! Not the optimum climb speed for the K4 but I found that AI in LA-5FN or LA-7 try to climb after you and still stay behind you. Since they insist on staying behind you, they lose "ground" quickly since they can barely fly level at that speed, let alone climb after you. In the K4, even like I said before, though it's not exactly optimum, it can still climb quite well at that speed, leaving LAs in the dust even at low altitude. Now if the AI were smart, they'd climb at a faster speed and equal your climb or beat it, but they don't want to overshoot you and go past you horizontally. In thier limited digital minds, they think they have to stay right behind you. It works every time I get in a pinch. Then I start hammerheading down on top of them and blast them, one by one. Remember this trick against AI pilots!!

zzoltrix
07-20-2004, 07:44 PM
Yeah, that K4 climbs like a rocket. Probably better than the Dora. May be your best bet would be to try the Me262(the flying cucumber).
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/34.gif

dannnyjos
07-21-2004, 04:58 PM
What are you trying to be funny? http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif

http://images.google.com/images?q=tbn:s87PVXL_XAAJ:club.telepolis.com/fondoscez/espacio/muy_raro_cez.jpg

BBB_Hyperion
07-21-2004, 05:22 PM
The only way to get a good flown K4 with advantage is to keep it busy until fuel or ammo is out http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/784.gif. (This is only about Online, AI isn't worth to mention compared to human pilots)

K4 is the best prop climber in game. (Dora doesnt even come close).

Well when its not good flown some pilot errors are common.

1. Try to bring it in a low alt pursuit to bleed its energy special at sea level it only makes 580 km/h and tends to overheat fast.

2. Stay at medium speed range to change direction quickly with yoyo turns. Once pilot get bored of evasive he might try to turn into you.

3. When you notice high speed dives stay close to the ground cause of the high speed rudder problem on k4.

4. Don't ever try to fly a stallfight vs 109 except you are in i16 or other good turning planes. Even La7 cant bleed Speed that fast.

and so on ..

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

robban75
07-21-2004, 05:31 PM
The K-4 can almost reach 28-29m/sec from ground and up to almost 5000m. It will infact outclimb all other propfighters in FB/AEP. The La-7 is an excellent climber(27-20m/sec), but it wont hold a candle to the K-4 above 2000m in this department. The only fighter that can match the K-4 in climb is the Spitfire Mk.IX. It will outperform the Ta 152 at 10.000m even.

The K-4 also has very good acceleration, similar to the La-7. The K-4 tends to stiffen up at the higher speeds, use it against it. This will only work if you are flying the P-51, P-47, Spitfire, Fw 190 or La-7.

Flown properly, the K-4 is IMHO the most survivable fighter in the game.

After climb performance, turn performance is the most important aspect.
Since dive acceleration and zoom climb isn't modelled properly in this sim, fighters with good climb and turn performance pretty much hold all the cards. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif

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When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

WUAF_Badsight
07-21-2004, 10:49 PM
what Robban said

.
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dannnyjos
07-22-2004, 06:02 PM
Ok guys, thanks for your inputs. I'll tell you how it went on Saturday. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

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Atomic_Marten
07-22-2004, 08:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by robban75:
The K-4 can almost reach 28-29m/sec from ground and up to almost 5000m. It will infact outclimb all other propfighters in FB/AEP. The La-7 is an excellent climber(27-20m/sec), but it wont hold a candle to the K-4 above 2000m in this department. The only fighter that can match the K-4 in climb is the Spitfire Mk.IX. It will outperform the Ta 152 at 10.000m even.

The K-4 also has very good acceleration, similar to the La-7. The K-4 tends to stiffen up at the higher speeds, use it against it. This will only work if you are flying the P-51, P-47, Spitfire, Fw 190 or La-7.

Flown properly, the K-4 is IMHO the most survivable fighter in the game.

After climb performance, turn performance is the most important aspect.
Since dive acceleration and zoom climb isn't modelled properly in this sim, fighters with good climb and turn performance pretty much hold all the cards. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-sad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is maybe all u have to know about K4 IMO. I've made a mistake when I tell u that u should practice offline against Yak3's and LA7's. You should practice vs. them only if u engage on alt lower than 5000m.

However I've practice myself a bit against K4, P51, Spitfire Mk.IXHF (unclipped onehttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif) and Dora. AI Spit is the toughest oppo, IMO. Especially in higher alt (7500m&gthttp://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. They simply won't forgive me any error.(most dangerous is if I bleed my speed - they'll catch me and fill with that nasty 20mm's).

They are tough all right, but sometimes I just laugh at their stupidity (AI Spit, but not limited to them exclusively). K4 climbs alot faster and they can't follow - all we have to do is set throttle on 0%+combat flaps (when they bleed their speed) and seek for poor fellow (usually 0.80-1.20 below u). BnZ him after that is easy.

All we have to watch out for in Bf109K4 is on our diving speed. If it goes much above 700kmh we'll lose controll of the plane (dangerous on low alt - flaps and prop pitch management will help a lot to avoid these unwanted side effects of diving in K4). That is why Dora is better for BnZ IMO. She requires less skill for deadly BnZing, her controlls won't freeze on high diving speeds+she rolls like my grandma on dancing floor(before 60 years ago however http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif). Still overall K4 is king of BnZ only 'cause of enourmous speed capabilities. Also we must consider P47D27. It is monster on high alt's and I prefer it better than any other US plane.