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Mike8686
09-01-2004, 04:48 AM
I've been messing around with trim lately and it seems to me that you can make any aircraft as manueverable as you want it to be at high speeds through trimming....it just doesnt feel right to be able to turn so well at 650kph+ in a 109K4, is this something that needs to be addressed?

Mike8686
09-01-2004, 04:48 AM
I've been messing around with trim lately and it seems to me that you can make any aircraft as manueverable as you want it to be at high speeds through trimming....it just doesnt feel right to be able to turn so well at 650kph+ in a 109K4, is this something that needs to be addressed?

Fehler
09-01-2004, 04:52 AM
Does it need to be addressed? Yes, only since day one of IL2. Will it get addressed? No.

Solution? Put your trim on a slider and learn to use it like everyone else in the game.

VMF513_Sandman
09-01-2004, 05:22 AM
this is my take on it...he who cant fly within aircraft spec's needs that panzy trim on a slider http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif. he who does same in 513 airspace will escorted out the door. we took a very dim view of it in cfs2, and it hasnt changed. our allies, bss, feel the same way. if i feel there's 'slider trim' goin on, i will toss that pilot out the door. no if's, and's or but's. i run a tight but fair airspace. vmf-513 feels that slider trim is a cheat...and cheats are not welcome in 513 airspace. take it as u wish, but this is a command staff decision of 513. cheats will be instantly booted, repeat offenders will be banned.

BBB_Hyperion
09-01-2004, 06:28 AM
Trimm timing has been tuned down since FB did come out. Reason for the delay in trimming was that in real planes it would take time to trimm your plane
that is fixed now it takes time until trimm is set from slider. After all most planes of ww2 had trimm and a trimmwheel. If the effect of trimming really did something you can read in finnish pilot reports. Dive recovery and turning specialy. http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/109myths/

Some LW Aces used trimm in turn too special for 109(Not all liked strict B&Z)

I use trimm on any plane if bomber or fighter to maintain level flight for example without pushing nose down.

@Sandman
If the effect is in your impression too high thats on your part to present historical data to proof your point just saying "We dont like it" or "Fly within aircraft specs" is nonsense cause most planes have trouble with real aircraft specs. Rollrate just one thing to mention.

You can mail your proof to il2beta@1c.ru and aswell ban me from your server that i dont accidently hop in there. Most likely complex engine management is
deactivated too cause it allows non historical climb rates cause tests were never recorded under such conditions.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

Mike8686
09-01-2004, 06:29 AM
I agree Sandman. I just wish I knew to what extent I could use trim such that it wouldnt so blatantly violate what are the standards of flight SIMULATION. I really hope Oleg and company do something about the trim to make it realistic, it stinks to know that ppl are out there who will kill the sim by simply using trim to choose how manueverable they want their aircraft to be at higher speeds.

CHDT
09-01-2004, 06:32 AM
It must nevertheless be said that some very good work has been done by the Maddox team on the trim: no more instant acting (some were directly aiming with the trim!!!!)and structural failure at high speed with big trim movements. Not perfect, but much better than the early days, except for the "trickers" of course http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

NonWonderDog
09-01-2004, 08:07 AM
So what's wrong with the trim? Being the resident newbie, I haven't yet heard of any trim "exploit." It seems that the trim would be useful and effective in maneuvering, anyway. You can only put so much force into the stick, but the trim wheels don't ever get too much harder to turn.

From the site that Hyperion linked:

Me 109 G:
"Sarantola recalled that the MT was a very stable plane, but not the most maneuverable. The stick forces were quite large and elevator trim was used quite frequently while maneuvering.
MT was easy to fly and overall a safe plane. Flying and landing was easy."
- Olli Sarantola, Finnish fighter pilot. Source: Blitz '01 - Meeting With The Veterans by Finnish Virtual Pilots Association.

Even more interesting is the fact that they tried different positions of the trimming. With the wrong trimset - the one for cruising at high altitude it was not possible to pull out of the dive just by using the stick. They needed to use the trimwheel to recover the plane from the dive. This happened in such violent manner that the testpilot had to push the stick foreward to be not blacked out...
If the trim was set to +1.15‚? it was possible to recover without using the trimwheel - both flightpaths, with and without the trimwheel, are very similar. So even with the concrete stick the limitating factor seems to be the pilot.
Also interesting in the dive the canopy iced, also the mechanism of the trim, so it was not possible to set it smooth, but in \"jumps\", but it was still adjustable...
- Source: Hochgeschwindigkeitsversusche mit Me 109, Messerschmitt AG, Augsburg.

- 109 didn't "compress" but the elevators became heavy. When adjusting trim the entire horizontal tail plane moved and reduced the force needed to pull out.

ZG77_Nagual
09-01-2004, 08:32 AM
I really thought the trim problem was pretty much resolved. At high speeds you can use the trim to help your turn - but there are still blackouts - wings snapping off - and the fact that you have to quickly trim level again for aiming. I use trim in the p38 J and it works the same as described by pilots - set it before a dive so you can recover. Also - your aircraft will still stall if you over trim in a turn. It also helps 109s recover from fast dives. Really don't see a problem with it myself - not like it was before where you could map it to another joystick and effectively double all your input responses - including roll.

Xnomad
09-01-2004, 08:37 AM
I've been doing the Raybanjockey trim on the slider thingy with the P-38 J and compressibility has become a thing of the past, http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif I should be ashamed of myself but it's there for everyone to use and it's not entirely unrealistic.

http://server6.uploadit.org/files/Xnomad-Sig.jpg

VMF513_Sandman
09-01-2004, 06:56 PM
take a look at the wheel that controls that...its huge and has no hand crank. u cant tell me u'd be able to spin that puppy around hard and fast enough to pull that big bird out of a compression dive before u'd be a lawn dart.

a trim tab is 1/8'th the size of the control surface. its designed for almost hands-off level flight. if cruising, i set the trim for level flight after cruising speed is reached to keep from bouncing all over the place and drifting off course. flaps are designed for turning/landing/take-off. look at ur aircraft..the trim tab is a very very small thing compared to the elevator/rudder unit. try taking up 1 of those piper cherokee planes and try slammin it into a high speed turn with trim. u'd more than likely wind up damaging ur aircraft if the wings managed to stay on.

p1ngu666
09-01-2004, 07:20 PM
hm trim was effective, but i guess it just gives u a window of low stick pressure?

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KGr.HH-Sunburst
09-01-2004, 09:56 PM
sorry but i dont see the problem here as its free to use for every one and it doesnt turns a/c into uber planes ,trim doesnt makes the plane have a better turn rate its just handy to come out of a dive and when in blackout

ive been flying the 109 for ages and used trim on a slider as long as i have my X45 and i never seen it as a cheat as it doesnt makes the plane turn tighter its just handy for emergency pull outs when the controls freeze up and to trim up to get out of the dive or when in black out

the planes trim to slow for using it as a advantage in dogfights and IMO would give more problems than benefits

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WUAF_Badsight
09-01-2004, 11:49 PM
Trim in the Real World has an effect

it is also in FB

if its in the game its not a cheat

trimming helps at higher & highest speeds

it doesnt help much at lower & lowest speeds

.
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WUAF_Badsight
09-01-2004, 11:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RK_HH-Sunburst:
its just handy to come out of a dive and when in blackout <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RK_HH-Sunburst:
the planes trim to slow for using it as a advantage in dogfights and IMO would give more problems than benefits<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly

.
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VMF513_Sandman
09-02-2004, 05:23 AM
just be aware that if u are in my airspace and i feel it's being done, u will be put to the curb. this is the only warning as it will not be on the maps.

WWMaxGunz
09-02-2004, 05:26 AM
Trim was used in combat. Bud Anderson attested to it, stated exactly it was done
without thought. P-51 trim wheels are palm sized, you just turn them more times.
If an account of German pilot(s) doing so other than to pull out from dive exists
then I would be interested to know for filling a gap in my knowing. Bud Anderson
was Charles Yeagers wingman and long time buddy. Anyone wants to say that Bud was
one of only a few is full of it, those guys trained many -- this was something
they learned from the start.

In IL2/FB there are 2 uses of trim. One is to get the plane in the cleanest flight
you can. Dial or slider trim enables this as key trim is by virtual notches if
you tap where if you hold the key down you are blind as to how much -- a very poor
solution IMO.
The other use is to counter strong stick forces and enable the virtual pilot to
get more control authority than with no trim.
BOTH uses are real, were used not just in emergencies. Pulling 'a few' G's in
combat is tiring without having to fight the stick full time, that is why they used
the trim in combat. Again, read from Bud Anderson or find others who write of what
most took for granted and did not. If I walk down the hill to the store, I do not
describe how I step because of the hill because it is obvious to me.
GA pilots and instructors do not fly combat. Jet jocks have had FBW for a long
time now. Not everyone has the same view of trim so I refer to what that Ace wrote.

Does trim make the plane uber? No. Not using it handicaps the plane in straight
flight and handicaps the pilot pulling the stick (no, your stick angle does not
directly determine the angle of the stick in the plane -- learn that if you didn't).
It is not a cheat any more than using hands and feet to fight is cheating against
a hands-only fighter. Queensbury rules are not about real world fighting and to
enforce limits on trim based on GA piloting is the same, you will die in a REAL
fight.

The planes themselves are modelled as Oleg and the team made them. Trim does not
allow control surfaces to move past possible angles. There is no drag of trim
tabs or other trim mechanisms. Only big difference is trim neutralizes stick
forces at points other than true center. When your joystick is centered, the
stick of your plane is where it would be hands off with the trim you set. Trim
way back and your pilot will have a hard time pushing the stick way forward if
the speed of the plane is great enough to need the back-trim.

Trim issue is about control of the plane, it is seperate from FM. This has been
discussed to death with much information from Oleg.


Neal

BBB_Hyperion
09-02-2004, 06:25 AM
http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/109f4trimm.jpg

Ziehen = Pull
Dr√ľcken = Push
Flugbahn = Flightpath
Wirkliche Geschwindigkeit Vw= True Airspeed
Pullout with Tailfin

Here is a example for wrong and correct trimm and how it effects the dive process.

That test is from an F Model with G wings and G Side Rudder. The Tests were done to investigate issues with effect of the elevator at high mach values and overreconciliation of the aileron and firmness at high mach numbers.

On the 109 the complete stabelizer moves not like other planes.

The Trimm is so far correct problem is to simulate the stick forces.
It is very easy to pull hard on the stick when you dont need much force for it but that is a problem on all Planes and differs much by Hardware and Setup. Thats a problem discussed since il2.

I find it quite funny that some believe its a cheat cause of the non simulated stick forces but thats a limitation of the engine or how would you simulate it ? So all planes cheat cause they dont use real stick forces ?

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

Mike8686
09-02-2004, 06:52 AM
I dunno, it just seemsstrange that my 109 with trim can actually turn better at 650kph+ than I can with my FW190D9 (no trim)

BBB_Hyperion
09-02-2004, 07:47 AM
d9 has trimm too . There is a turntime vs speed vs alt limit for all planes. d9 will excel in e keeping and high speed rudder response. K4 is not only smaller but has larger control surfaces but irl the stick forces would make the difference that is not given in this sim. Also 109 bleeds e with tail heavy trimm much more than d9 does even more d9 without trimm . This means the 109 slows down and within the lower speed margin it can turn better while d9 keeps its energie and flys at a higher speed a larger circle. The slower plane turns insight the faster plane cause of the larger circle. The effect can be increased by reducing throttle on k4 . Does this mean K4 turns better no.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

KSS_Shrike_UK
09-02-2004, 07:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WUAF_Badsight:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RK_HH-Sunburst:
its just handy to come out of a dive and when in blackout <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you dont call this cheating?
you loose controls because your blacked out yet you can still use trim ? and do!

Shrike
Joint Squadron Leader
Kindred Spirits Squadron
kss.dogfighters.net

CHDT
09-02-2004, 08:09 AM
Two links on how to use the trim....in the real world http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif


"Don't try to fly the airplane with the trim control."

http://www.abbysenior.com/aviation/trim.htm

"First NEVER fly the plane with trim wheel"

http://whitts.alioth.net/Pagea5Trim%20and%20Holding%20the%20Yoke.htm


P.S. I know perfectly that elevator trim is used in combat, but not to directly aim by moving the nose of the aircraft or to turn shorter! And at high speeds, the elevator trim MUST be used only with the greatest care and little inputs, or no more wings!

BBB_Hyperion
09-02-2004, 09:02 AM
Sim HQ has also some more illustrative sum up.

(look under section Stabilizer trim)
http://www.simhq.com/_air/air_003c.html

http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_003c_7.jpg
http://www.simhq.com/_air/images/air_003c_8.jpg

English report on 109 test with some trim notes.

http://www.bf109.com/flying.html

High Ground
is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

[This message was edited by BBB_Hyperion on Thu September 02 2004 at 08:18 AM.]

WWMaxGunz
09-02-2004, 11:24 AM
Not talking about pilots in combat flying by trim. Only using trim to relieve
stick forces. Full trim and hands off is not stick full back anyway.

GA (General Aviation) is not by any stretch combat flying. Quote GA practices
all day, it is still not combat. Go fly for an hour or two in the cold and get
in a life or death situation where your ability to pull the stick and hold the
3+ G's decides who lives and see if you don't crank back a ways on the force.
Maybe the other guy won't be thinking about how to fly airliners or small planes
while you're being pure Queensbury.

Yes, you have to have the trim back when the maneuver changes just to keep from
having to fight the stick. So you don't crank it so far. And what is REALLY
ODD is why aircraft designers put in so much daggone trim capability when it is
just pure death to use more than the smallest amount! At least, that's the way
I read the objections. AFAIK, trim is like 1/2 full deflection if that.

S! Hyperion!

Stick forces are indeed fully modelled in IL2, FB and AEP. Fully. You do not
have them at your joystick because what your joystick controls is how hard the
pilot pulls the control stick. How hard is always the same and limited as well.
The plane goes very fast and the backforces on the controls get harder to pull
against. At some point, the full force your simulated pilot can use on the
control stick is not enough to fully dfelct the control stick. You are still
going to be pulling fully back on your joystick and the spring force you feel
on your stick is analogous to how hard the pilot is pulling the stick. Force
is relative but movement of your joystick to the control of the plane is not.
Thus, stick force is fully modelled. You trim back 12 taps of the key out of
50 taps possible and your pilot has through trim relieved some of the back
force on his control stick and can pull that much farther.

Is this REAL? If anyone needs to ask then they shouldn't say it is wrong to do.
There is a time delay for trim in the sim since before FB was out. Penalties
for bad use of trim are as real in the sim as they are in life. People who
use a whole lot of trim in the sim are either trimming back or skirting loss.
Let them. Is it CHEATING? Well, since you can get neutral trim instantly,
yes there is an open door to unreal behaviour or at least avoidance of the
consequences right there. Hit one key and you are back to center from wherever
you were.


For Anybody:

The turns with the trim are within the designs of the planes. Bug Oleg about
the instant neutral trim 'feature' if you want to claim a problem in the sim.


Neal

BBB_Hyperion
09-02-2004, 02:52 PM
S! WWMaxGunz at least one reasonable post .)

You are perfectly right about your observations. The Neutral trim is still a flaw they forgot with the delay i guess. It should indeed take time. As i never use it didnt notice yet.

Well on the 109 and 190 the complete elevator changes its aoa with the elevator trim. Its incorrectly shown in FB cause when you trimm your elevator it changes the aoa of the elevator rudder only . That there are limitations of the movement you can find easily when triming nose full up or down . With full trim up its hardly possible to get the same negative deflection as untrimmed.

This Data is from a 109 e for example it shows deflection angle norms with changed elevator angle 2nd dataline shows allowed tolerance.

http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/elevator109e.JPG

Flossenstellung is the angle of the elevator and H√¬∂henruderauschlag is the Elevator Rudder deflection.

We have there for example with Flossenstellung 0 the normal angle allows pull 33‚? and push 34 ‚? deflection.
Now with Flossenstellung -8‚? we get pull 42 ‚? and push 22‚? .

Here same Data for FW190 A Series
http://www.butcherbirds.de/hypesstorage/elevator190.jpg


Hope you got the idea now .) On other Planes not using this trimtype its surely wrong .

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

WWMaxGunz
09-02-2004, 06:31 PM
Are those adjustments of control authority from the whole effect of moving tailplane
plus full stick travel? IOW is the elevator movement always the same relative to
the angle of the tailplane?

I had been written by someone years ago that moveable tailplane trim is more effective
than fixed tailplane and I can intuit why, the moved tailplane lies closer along the
path of the plane, then the elevators make deflection of wind. The 109 tailplane moves
very few degrees, no? But then depending on plane, some control surfaces have low
angle limits and size of surface is the force factor. Some had both but big surfaces
are hard to move at high speed, as the Zero had for ailerons. Great at low and mid
speed, handicap at high.

When the dev team of Red Baron 3 was responding steadily with the forum at Delphi,
one who was doing FM work answered criticism that some planes should be good/great
at all speeds. His answer was that planes built for high speeds don't do well at
low speeds and vice-versa. In the 109 series alone I think that plays out, speeds
where the E did very well were not the strong point of the K and K model good speeds
were not where the E model was very maneuverable. Some other planes went through
transition in their series, like the Spits, but with what I know best the 109's
seem to have the widest range of models.


Neal

BBB_Hyperion
09-02-2004, 10:46 PM
The Adjustment adds to the complete angle means the control wires are moved with it while the attachment point of the elevator rudder stays (Elevator is turned around this axis as center).

The Stabilizer moves about 11 degrees norm -8‚? + 3‚? as you can find in the doc above. English test talks from about 12 Degrees.

There have been changes in tailfin and elevator size and tabs added. The system however is pretty much the same on K4 even when the control surface is bigger. Forces on trimm wheel are not simulated also described in finnish,german reports that a wrong trimed plane is hard to trim back.

Here you can find some details on tail developement on 109 under
Technical Reference/Structures/Empennage.

http://109lair.hobbyvista.com/index1024.htm

I am still amazed in which detail il2 models such extras.

The 109 had some problems with high speed. The biggest problem was the sideslip to counter at higher speeds. That can be quite excessive. About 800 to 850 maxdive speed from factory specs for K4 but that is only a indication cause safety margin is always included there and they never mention for which tail type. Dive tests on modiefied F4 shows True Airspeeds over 900 km/h. So it can be exspected about 950 max for K4 cause of the reenforced construction but thats my guess no data .)

So far the trim looks realistic if the 15g limit for all airplanes is correct is another thing. I would bet that some planes would lose parts more easily than others and there is a reason this limit is for all planes the same .)

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

p1ngu666
09-03-2004, 01:00 AM
maybe u have large margin of trim incase of damage.
ive heard of bomber pilots having to use full trim AND stick to keep bomber in the air

i do trim out my damaged plane if i can btw, and in blackout situations. thats semi realistic?

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BBB_Hyperion
09-03-2004, 09:22 AM
Who says you cant trimm your plane in blackout situation ?

There is a difference to modern jet figthers and older planes in the black out issue. There is a slow black out comes from gradual blood starvation. takes depening on action and g load about 3s .

The fast unconsciouness without warning comes from total cutoff of oxygen to the brain. Thats a G-LOC its instant and fast. Hardly to archive that in ww2 planes but possible in some situations.

Here is a list of effects.

"If a force of 4 to 6 g is sustained for more than a few seconds, the resulting symptoms range from visual impairment to total blackout."

"As the g forces climb up toward 7 g's, you sink further still in the seat. You can no longer see color. Everything appears in black and white. An instant later, the passenger next to you disappears from view. Your field of vision is shrinking. It now looks like you are seeing things through a pipe. The front corner of the car disappears from view as your peripheral vision disappears. The visual pipe's diameter is getting smaller and smaller. You sink into the seat further still as the number of g's climb further. In a flash you see black. You have just "blacked out." You are unconscious until the number of g's are reduced and the blood returns to your brain."

"Inside Loop [diagram]
8 g blackout limit
A person passes out because of the lack of oxygen in the brain."

"The human threshold is around +7.5 G's, for a trained pilot in a 'G suit.'"

Well some of this statements surely question some high g turners in FB that loop endless without g suit .) With special breathing tech you can get some more out of it but who used it in ww2. I would like to see the pilots that fly loops after loop like in il2 after their run most likely they would not look that good http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

The lost Vision doesnt mean you are not able to control the plane in some instances it might be depending on the g force and time its applied but not in all cases. But if a real pilot can sustain the stress applied in il2 is another topic http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif The Engine ,Plane and Pilot are build for 1 run only you dont need to worry about consequences .)

Trimming out planes after damage or bombdrop is perfectly legal.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

SlickStick
09-03-2004, 03:56 PM
LMAO @ Sandman!!! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-very-happy.gif

So, anyone who out turns you on your server must be using trim, eh? I fear it is more you don't like being bested, considering that you cannot conclusively prove anyone is or isn't using trim to beat you.

You've got to be kidding...nobody could be that much of a control freak. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif

It's sad enough to see the biased planeset and/or scenario servers that get setup around here and the others with more rules than a Major League Baseball rule book, but to kick someone because you think they're using trim sounds like a "catch-all" to me to dispatch better pilots.

IMAO, of course.

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NN_Tym
09-04-2004, 03:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
that is fixed now it takes time until trimm is set from slider. After all most planes of ww2 had trimm and a trimmwheel. If the effect of trimming really did something you can read in finnish pilot reports. Dive recovery and turning specialy. http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/109myths/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I found nothing about turning in the site... All I find is that the elevator trim could help prevent the stick from being too heavy, allowing pilots to have more control even at high speed.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Some LW Aces used trim in turn too special for 109 (Not all liked strict B&Z)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Reference please. I never read anything about it.

Fehler
09-04-2004, 05:45 AM
You know, the whole trim issue is really silly in the first place. Yes, in IL2 with insta-trim, it could be used to pull out of high speed dives with no E loss, but that really isnt the case now.

As a matter of fact, those of us that use trim on a slider dont get the use of the "Insta-neutral" effect as your trim takes time to go from positive/negative trim to neutral now. The keystroke trimmers can in fact get neutral trim instantly (So isnt that turn-about? LOL)

As far as people using it during dogfighting and servers who "Ban" them, these people obviously dont know or understand the whole issue with trim as it is currently modelled.

Yes, trim will help you turn slightly better at high speed, but you still bleed E and when needing to get back to neutral for shooting, it takes time (Insta-neitral trim not withstanding), and failure to do so makes the plane unstable or stall prone. Also, an excessively positive trimmed plane is very prone to the banana peel stall at slow speeds. So knowing how and when to use it is more important than just using it (Skill involved here)

For those who say it is a cheat, I would like to direct you to many many 109 pilot references that say they would trim "UP"/positive when entering a dogfight to aid in turning. Many P-51 pilots are quoted on this as well including Chuck Yeager. But they also warn of sudden stalls at this configuration, just like it is in the game. So, servers that dont permit aircraft trim to be used are really not interested in historical recreation IMHO. It's kind of like road racing and you are not allowed to mash the gas pedal all the way; what's the point?!?

Does a guy that has his trim on a slider have an advantage? Sure. So does the guy that has a HOTAS setup over a guy with a 2 button $10.00 joystick. How about a guy with rudder pedals over a guy that uses the keyboard for rudder? Sure! Or TracIR vs mouse-look. Let's ban them too! We can call our new "Cheat-free" server "Po-b@stards Full-real(ly?)" http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The other night while in a dogfight server, I got suckered into a stall fight with a P51 while in my D-9. We were both at full flaps, full engine power, right on the edge of stall. The first guy that made a mistake lost. This kept on for nearly 5 minutes! True "Edge-of-your-seat" twisty-turny, rolling scissors, cut and slash stall fighting! It was great! You bet we were both using trim to try and get that 1-5 degree advantage over the other. As it turns out, I think the other guy trimmed a hair too much and when his wing dipped in a tight turn, I was able to pull a lead shot. By definition, this would have been a "Cheat fight" and I or both of us would have been banned. Too bad, because what it really does is eliminate the people that take the time to learn how to get the absolute most out of their aircraft and how hard they can push it to the edge. But you can also get "Cut" on the same edge as well, and that is what makes the whole affair so much fun!

But back to the original poster's question. No, trim in the game is not perfect. But neither are stick forces because in the sim, we are all the same strength http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. The only advantage I see to trim on a slider (Now) is that people using the keyboard to trim have to take their hands off their throttle find the keys and click buttons. I use the thumb wheel on my X45 to trim the elevator, the finger wheel for prop pitch. I never have to remove my hands from the throttle except to bail out (Which I could also map, but I KNOW I would make the mistake and bail out accidently! LOL)

There are planty of accounts from pilots that used trim in combat, but again, excessive trimming will bite you in the butt in the long run, so learn to use it to it's advantages, and learn to fly your plane on the edge (Wouldnt you do that for real if your real life was at stake)?

CHDT
09-04-2004, 05:50 AM
Good post, Fehler, that confirms all I heard from real combat pilots having flown WWII or early jet designs.

For instance, a friend of mine, who was a Vampire and Venom pilot, told me that before a dogfight I trimmed his De Havilland a little nose-up and then after he didn't touch the trim anymore, except during periods of stabilized flying. And of course, he told me too that the elevator trim must be used with the greatest care in a dive and never directly during the aerobatics.

So, I think that the trim as it is now in AEP is perhaps not perfect, but nevertheless quite good for a rather realistic approach of the thing.

Kurfurst__
09-04-2004, 05:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mike8686:
...it just doesnt feel right to be able to turn so well at 650kph+ in a 109K4, is this something that needs to be addressed?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That`s funny, because a while ago we had a well-documented thread explicitely about the 109K`s turn at 650 km/h, and guess what?

It turns 50% worser without trim than it should be.

The real plane could complete a 360 degree turn in 24 secs, but the one we have in the game can only complete it in 35-36 secs without using the trim!

We should not require any trim to make such turns at high speeds. If things were historical, we could turn even faster than this if we would employ trim, but then of course we would be likely to break planes like Mustang fliers do now, because of pulling excessive Gs.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/isegrim/nw2004set7.jpg

We're walking in the air
We're floating in the midnight sky
And everyone who sees us greets us as we fly

Fehler
09-04-2004, 06:13 AM
Oh, and Sandman, I do understand you wanting to keep the game "Cheat free" and your committment to doing so on your server. I think that is great! But your approach leaves room for mistakes IMHO. For example, say I am flying in a Spit 5 and some 109 out-turns me. He may be using trim, or he may just be at his optimal turning speed versus me. But say he is a better pilot and knows the best turn speeds in his plane. I accuse him of using trim unrealistically, and he gets banned?

You see what I mean? Now, I do realize that the whole point to having a server is for it to get used; correct? So if people are banned without question for things you view as "Cheating" yet it is available to everyone in the game, isnt that the same as stacking the deck in one side's favor only?

Why not say that there is no fighting allowed above a certain altitude, or limit dogfighting to turning only; no B&Z allowed. Or, entering a fight with an advantage is against the rules. It just seems silly to me. Speedhack guys, or lag creators (Disconnect and reconnect their connection cheaters) ARE out there and they do these things. That is something that is not coded into the game and IS a cheat. They are far more a concern to me. And what about the "Crappy computer" cheaters? Everyone knows that if you use a "Less powerful" graphics setting (Medium clouds or lower resolution) you have visual advantages over the guy who uses 32 Bit, Detailed clouds, 4-8x AA. Is that a cheat too?

The truth is, people can use a host of things to their advantage. So why the stance on something that is actually available to everyone and IS CODED INTO THE GAME from the developer? That's the key in my opinion. If it is something that is outside the coding of the game that is used by a person to give an UNFAIR advantage over another player, then it IS a cheat. If it is a lack of understanding of one's aircraft, or an inability to fly it to it's optimal performance, than it is poor piloting.

NN_Tym
09-04-2004, 06:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There are planty of accounts from pilots that used trim in combat, but again, excessive trimming will bite you in the butt in the long run, so learn to use it to it's advantages, and learn to fly your plane on the edge (Wouldnt you do that for real if your real life was at stake)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Can you point me to one reference that will clearly state that it could enhance tur rate or turn radius at low speed.

At high speed, I guess the trim can play a role,a s it will help the pilot get some more control authrity. But I have never seen anything about the trim being a useful tool in a slow fight.

If there are plenty references, I guess one must be easy to find and post here...

WWMaxGunz
09-04-2004, 08:16 AM
If your stick sensitivity sliders are lower in the left side and increase toward
the right side then using trim in low speed turns will let you have better control
in a turn. It will work on climb too. Work that out, it is not hard to understand.
It is a product of the limits of the hardware and the player both. Use pitch sliders
all at the same value and that whole business goes away but you better be able to
use fine stick movements to fly at all or shoot worth a d@mn.


Neal

BBB_Hyperion
09-04-2004, 11:47 AM
@NN_Tym there have been quotes about it since years on this forum and at SimHQ too. You can use search function.
You can find it also in almost every 2nd Book that describes the use of trim in combat. When i can refind it in a Book of my archive i can post the title. I know its more than 1 time in there but dont have time to search it all through now.

Trim plays a role at any speed .

Here is a report of an US Pilot on P51 flying.
http://www.elknet.pl/acestory/anderson/anderson.htm

...
There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and "help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning". The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial.

It's a little unnerving to think about how many things you have to deal with all at once to fly combat.
...

It is not always an advantage to use full nose up trim it might be possible that your are too slow under best turning speed and too high aoa and turn slower than normal and lose speed fast.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

NN_Tym
09-04-2004, 02:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BBB_Hyperion:
"help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It does not change the turn rate... All I have read say just what Anderson says.

But in AEP, it makes the plane a better turner at any speed, no matter what force would be required to achieve the best turn rate.

So, my question still is : "Show me a reference stating that the trim could allow a plane a better turn rate or a better turn radius."

BBB_Hyperion
09-04-2004, 07:44 PM
@NN_Tym
Did you read what documents i posted above ? Did you understand the function of a stabilizer trim that goes for 109 and 190 ?

The effect of trim up on p51 can only be found in less force to apply for turning which CAN lead to better turning performance depending on speed and most likely does cause of the high stick forces on p51 at speed the pilot can pull more . Its not the case that all aoas (frontwing) or speeds have the same turning circle there are huge differences when the wing section is not at best airflow. P51 has laminar flow makes the aoa tolerance of the front wing section releative small until stall comes. So high speed turns are needed to use it to optimum. So too much nose up trim should be bad for highspeed cause of strutural limits high g forces can apply.
The angle of the elevator doesnt change only the airflow and it doesnt allow more movement in any direction with trim than without.

On the 109 and 190 however the complete stabilizer changed its aoa so less drag and about same elevator movement but increased by the angle the stabilizer moved. The airflow angle changed and lift angle assuming its in the turning airflow. Still as i mentioned above plane can be out of best turnspeed and turn slower when not carefull but that maybe better for the turntime in parabola like turnings(special with slats deploying on 109 allowing better cl value).

We dont talk about sustained level turns here.

You can easily simulate the effect of changed stabilizer aoa on paperflyers as well the elevator effect also faster to proof than any physics class . Principle is the same except the weight and speed etc .).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
It does not change the turn rate...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And why not ? Pilot can apply more force =&gt; leading to other turnrate can be a worse turnrate tho.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
But in AEP, it makes the plane a better turner at any speed, no matter what force would be required to achieve the best turn rate.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hmm when i trim full nose down i can turn better ?

I assume you mean nose up trim only.

Any Speed ? Ever tried to turn with 10 km/h ?

Your proof that it is wrong ?



@discussion

Summing up.
-Stickforce is not feelable on stick.
-Plane Structural limits are all the same at 15g for frame
-Pilot never gets tired or suffers longer consequences in abuse of hard turns
-Additional Stick movement on non Stabilizer Trimtypes implies if it is so stick forces are simulated.
-Additional Stick forces on Stabilizer Trimtypes are ok but only if movement in other direction decreases what it does.
-Neutral trim doesnt have delay

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

VFA-195 Snacky
09-05-2004, 01:59 AM
The only time this trim issue bothers me is when I have a good firing solution on someone only to see them roll over and fly in a turn inverted so that you will be forced to roll and follow only to see them quickly pull and turn rapidly while they seem to experience no blackout effect from this violant manuver.
It's obvious they are applying full negative trim and quickly bringing trim back to center to turn sharply in the other direction.

For the most part I try to fly energy tactics and whether or not someone can trim quickly to turn sharply makes no difference to me because by turning just gives me a shot at thier canopy.
It's the inverted loops and turns that tick me off because the onset of a redout takes too long to occur and quickly disappears as soon as positive G is applied again. Redout should happen quicker and last longer IMO.

http://www.x-plane.org/users/531seawolf/b_a_presidential_first.jpg
"Navy1, Call the Ball- Roger Ball."

WWMaxGunz
09-05-2004, 04:51 PM
Tym, Hyperion, will either of you deny that better control in turns makes better
ability to turn, to find and hold the edge outside the stall?


Neal

BBB_Hyperion
09-05-2004, 05:09 PM
It isnt the case that you can turn always better with better control in turns when you are out of the best turning speed and get in worse aoa it can be the case that it turns worse. Same for holding edge before stall with nose trim can make the plane a lot more stalling than without. On 109 or la7 with slats deploying at lower speeds it allows better control of near stall flying. But why that should be wrong ?.

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

BigKahuna_GS
09-05-2004, 08:14 PM
S!

Trim should come off as slowly as it is applied. No instant nuetral. This would penalize those who apply unrealistic maximum amounts of trim on every directional change through the use of a slider. Maybe trim in FB/AEP should have limitations in restricting the amount available in the sim.

No combat pilot would be using full trim on every directional change as it would take too long to change trim settings back and forth. Minor trim adjustments was all that was necessary during a dogfight.

As for trim settings remember what trim does for aircraft in real life. Trim reduces stick forces in order to relieve pilot fatigue--thats it pure and simple. Trim does not cause control surfaces to move beyond their normal limits or give you something extra.


P51 pilot Bud Anderson on using trim during combat:

"A lot of this is just instinct now. Things are happening too fast to think everything out. You steer with your right hand and feet. The right hand also triggers the guns. With your left, you work the throttle, and keep the airplane in trim, which is easier to do than describe.

Any airplane with a single propeller produces torque. The more horsepower you have, the more the prop will pull you off to one side. The Mustangs I flew used a 12-cylinder Packard Merlin engine that displaced 1,649 cubic inches. That is 10 times the size of the engine that powers an Indy car. It developed power enough that you never applied full power sitting still on the ground because it would pull the plane's tail up off the runway and the propeller would chew up the concrete. With so much power, you were continually making minor adjustments on the controls to keep the Mustang and its wing-mounted guns pointed straight.

There were three little palm-sized wheels you had to keep fiddling with. They trimmed you up for hands-off level flight. One was for the little trim tab on the tail's rudder, the vertical slab which moves the plane left or right. Another adjusted the tab on the tail's horizontal elevators that raise or lower the nose and help reduce the force you had to apply for hard turning. The third was for aileron trim, to keep your wings level, although you didn't have to fuss much with that one. Your left hand was down there a lot if you were changing speeds, as in combat . . . while at the same time you were making minor adjustments with your feet on the rudder pedals and your hand on the stick. At first it was awkward. But, with experience, it was something you did without thinking, like driving a car and twirling the radio dial."



"Aggressiveness was fundamental to success in air-to-air combat and if you ever caught a fighter pilot in a defensive mood you had him licked before you started shooting."
Cmdr. David McCampbell, USN

McCampbell's nine kills in 90 minutes set a record in aerial warfare history for a single mission that is believed to stand today. He is the nation's top Navy ace and fourth-leading ace, behind three Army Air Force pilots.
_______
http://www.militaryartgallery.com/Images_b/b-zero-fighter-sweep.jpg
"Angels of Okinawa"

WWMaxGunz
09-05-2004, 10:33 PM
The mechanics of the sim, Hyperion, due to the limits of the hardware have most players
setting thir joysticks up with disproportional sensitivity. This means that near the
middle you can move the stick a ways without moving the control surfaces very far, for
more sensitive control. Actually, you are commanding the pilot to use less strength
per angle you move the stick *near center* if you have the sliders as most do.

But as you leave the center position of the joystick, the control amount gets more and
more for less and less joystick movement. So you move just a tiny bit out 3/4 the way
and it's a lot more than the same tiny bit even 3/8 the way which is way more than near
the center. You get better control near the center position of your joystick. It's
harder to accidently pull too much, it's easier to bring the nose in fine and watch
your speed then let it out just a hair if you begin to cross the line into stall.

And here is where the trim comes in. Using trim, you move the defined area of where
the center position of your joystick is in terms of the virtual airplane stick. If
the trim is back, nose up then when your stick is centered the pilot is not putting
force on the planes stick but it is back that far as it is trimmed. Pulling back
moves near the center of your joystick would require pulling back moves past the
sweet area of your joystick without the trim. You have moved the area of best
control back, of course at the expense of control in the forward, nose down, region.

In a hard turn especially, fine control is critical. When the reaction per degree
of joystick pull is changing quicker and quicker as you pull the stick back, it is
very hard to adjust to. A little bit does so much at 1/2 way, it does much more
soon after but do you know just where your hand is and how much? If you're good,
you slow down more and more as you pull back more and more. If you're not, you do
a steady pull and unknowingly you've yanked the stick hard and will blow the turn.

I've run all pitch sliders at anywhere from 90 to 100. I've run em in a straight
line from 90 (91?) up to 100 and 80 (82?) up to 100 as well. All the same means
no really fine control =but= whatever amount I pull near the middle, I get the same
reaction when I pull that far anywhere else all the way back -- the response is
linear and eaier for me to adapt to even if it means using a very light hand for
gunnery. I still get hits at good range, or at least I did. It a matter of using
thumb and index finger or thumb and two fingers instead of a deathgrip is all.
Best part is that even in IL2 I was able to fly neutral trim combat with far less
wingtip stalls just due to even control response. Give it a try and see that there
is a difference, it will open your eyes more to the user-stick interface.


Neal

BBB_Hyperion
09-05-2004, 11:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 609IAP_Kahuna:
As for trim settings remember what trim does for aircraft in real life. Trim reduces stick forces in order to relieve pilot fatigue--thats it pure and simple. Trim does not cause control surfaces to move beyond their normal limits or give you something extra.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any trouble reading my posted documents this is not true for 109 or 190 the complete stabilizer changes its aoa start at top of this thread dont know how often i need to repeat it.


@WWMaxGunz
yes thats really a problem but thats how things are even without trim you are able to set stick controls the way you described but i dont see a reason that something is wrong with the trim at least not that. In this case the whole control setup is questionable. Pitch at first how can you instantly run prop pitch from auto position to 100 % for example and go back .) Normaly Pitch should go to last position not to 100 %.

The Original question was "does Trimming make √ľberplanes". We found many problems in the simulation but none that actually can clearly state that the trim is not within the range of the plane performance. What happens at the input side of the player joystick setup or anything related with control is chosen by the player within the limitations of the sim.

When someone can think out a test where we can definitly find out if stick forces are simulated or not that would help a lot . Cause when they are not simulated most trim settings outputs are incorrect not all but most.

To get reasonable data for the game we would need much info for every plane to verify its trim is within plane performance or not. I believe there have been made some compromises but cant proof it without data .)

High Ground is not only more agreeable and salubrious, but more convenient from a military point of view; low ground is not only damp and unhealthy, but also disadvantageous for fighting.

Sun Tzu : The Art of War

Regards,
Hyperion

WWMaxGunz
09-06-2004, 01:29 PM
I'm not saying anything is wrong with the trim.
I'm saying the way the user stick interface is set up strongly favors control at
the point of where the trim "is" and that's why people can turn better trimmed.

Trim right for the speed you're at and you aim better too! Same reason, if the
center of the stick is set to fine control while the other sliders go up.

What the plane itself can do is independant of the control. If the pilot can
pull enough and stay within best flight then the plane turns best as well.

Our interface is only an analogy of reality. Treating it as real without
regards to the limits is a mistake. Expecting everyone else to do the same
as at least one poster wants is also at least half of a mistake.


Neal