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Jack-Reacher
06-21-2012, 03:35 AM
Basically Those Who Came Before can only exist in the past at any given moment in time because they are defined by Those Who Came Before, they are a civilisation that can only exist in the past at any given point of reflecting on the past and thus never actually physically exist. Thats right, Those Who Came Before are a real civilisation, a real species, but they never existed.

What happened a long time ago was that Altair went mad with power over the illusion of the Apple of Eden. The Apple of Eden is no masterful piece of technoology, it is simply an illusion of fear, if people believe it has control over them they will let it have control over them ( Very much like politicians and governments that keep the system going.

During his mad power trip Altair told many people about Those Who Came Before in order to give the apple of eden some credibility. People were getting smarter and were losing faith in the apple, so Altair created the entire story of the TWCB in order to regain its power. However as generations passed and as leaders gained control of the apple they had to make the story more and more bizare, adding in the clone element of the human race and also adding in nonsense about solar flares.

During the confusion of the distorted myth someone decided to create a hologram AI of one of the characters of Those Who Came Before. Eventually TWCB grew as a species out of the myth and only exist while people are thinking about the myth. While they think about the myth of TWCB, they are left vulnerable to the myth and are under its control, thus allowing TWCB to carry on.

The myth grew and people kept creating new AIs and new holograms to keep it going, the myth (TWCB) is now self aware and is now a fully conscious being. The concept of a mysterious past to explain the apples power is its life source, it feeds on the gullibility of humans and uses the weak as its transportation, and the power greedy for its diversification.

In my opinion this is an analogy for religion and how it defines your perspective of reality

Assassin_M
06-21-2012, 03:39 AM
Your last comment is very offensive..

This is not some Atheist website where you can freely bash religion..

rileypoole1234
06-21-2012, 03:51 AM
Okay I don't really get a lot of that, but are you saying that Altair made up TWCB? And who in God's name could create a hologram in the 1500's? I think we know for a fact that TWCB were real. We saw their civilisation destroyed by the solar flare that really did happen in ACR. I highly doubt that human beings would go through the trouble of creating holograms to keep a myth going. If they have to create it, they would know it's fake and there would be no sense in trying to say it's real.

How can a myth be self aware? That just doesn't make any sense. How could an immaterial thing be a conscious being? If you're calling Altair weak for believing in TWCB, I think that's just plain wrong.

To compare your theory to Religion is ridiculous and will probably start a Religion fight so I'm not even gonna go there.

Basically I completely disagree. It's nothing against you at all, I just don't believe in this theory.

EDIT: M, thanks for not making me have to say that...

RatonhnhakeFan
06-21-2012, 03:56 AM
Interesting theory, but it would make the AC universe even more fantastical than it already is. At the face value, TWCB (and their technology) are at least somehow possible to accept as realistic in that they were simply technologically advanced civilization that existed thousands of years ago and then got destroyed. In your concept, medieval humans would be capable of creating AIs. Requires too much suspension of disbelief IMO.

And yeah, the last comment ain't very appropriate, however, people may discuss atheism if they want too. Just as it ain't "atheism-only" website, it also ain't any religious website. Both religion and atheism are relevant to the series.

rileypoole1234
06-21-2012, 04:01 AM
And yeah, the last comment ain't very appropriate, however, people may discuss atheism if they want too. Just as it ain't "atheism-only" website, it also ain't any religious website. Both religion and atheism are relevant to the series.

I don't even really ever remember Religion being in any AC game. Besides the Pope and that stuff, I don't remember Religion being discussed...

Isn't it against the rules to discuss Religion on the Forums? I think it is.

Jack-Reacher
06-21-2012, 04:03 AM
Fair enough, removed the last comment.

Also yeah this is supposed to be a wack theory, I honestly don't believe it myself its just there for the sake of entertainment, this kind of speculation will fail to exist once AC3 has been beaten so you may as well expand the story while you can. Its basically an alternate story for the AC universe.

Ok as for the 1500s that part was a flaw in the alternate theory, so I will re explain it.

Basically Altair came up with the idea for TWCB in order to make people believe the apple had powers, as people were losing their faith in it. Everyone who had control over the apple knew it wasnt real and thus kept the myth going, so the templars would have used put the hologram in the animus, call it a fake memory if you must.

As for TWCB becomeing self aware, basically the concept of them became so complex that it kept itself going by using people to spread it and maniuplate it. The story sort of wrote itself, its an abstract view on what life actually is, another view on consciousness that isnt defined biologically.

Assassin_M
06-21-2012, 04:04 AM
Interesting theory, but it would make the AC universe even more fantastical than it already is. At the face value, TWCB (and their technology) are at least somehow possible to accept as realistic in that they were simply technologically advanced civilization that existed thousands of years ago and then got destroyed. In your concept, medieval humans would be capable of creating AIs. Requires too much suspension of disbelief IMO.

And yeah, the last comment ain't very appropriate, however, people may discuss atheism if they want too. Just as it ain't "atheism-only" website, it also ain't any religious website. Both religion and atheism are relevant to the series.
No, the discussion of religion is completely against the rules of the forums..
The discussion of Atheism is basically discussing whether God exists or not, which is not relevant to AC..

Assassin_M
06-21-2012, 04:06 AM
Fair enough, removed the last comment.

Also yeah this is supposed to be a wack theory, I honestly don't believe it myself its just there for the sake of entertainment, this kind of speculation will fail to exist once AC3 has been beaten so you may as well expand the story while you can. Its basically an alternate story for the AC universe.

Ok as for the 1500s that part was a flaw in the alternate theory, so I will re explain it.

Basically Altair came up with the idea for TWCB in order to make people believe the apple had powers, as people were losing their faith in it. Everyone who had control over the apple knew it wasnt real and thus kept the myth going, so the templars would have used put the hologram in the animus, call it a fake memory if you must.

As for TWCB becomeing self aware, basically the concept of them became so complex that it kept itself going by using people to spread it and maniuplate it. The story sort of wrote itself, its an abstract view on what life actually is, another view on consciousness that isnt defined biologically.
Thank you..
and there are still some discrepancies, why would the Templars try to support what An assassin originally faked ??

RatonhnhakeFan
06-21-2012, 04:06 AM
No, the discussion of religion is completely against the rules of the forums..
The discussion of Atheism is basically discussing whether God exists or not, which is not relevant to AC..Fair enough, didn't know religion was specifically mentioned. However, the existence of God/religion is the topic in AC series - Altair's Codex Entries in AC2 being one of the examples

Jack-Reacher
06-21-2012, 04:08 AM
I dont mean to bring it up again, you dont have to continue this strain of the conversation if you want, but I think Religion does play some part in the AC universe. The ACB DLC talks about Copernicus and his ideas about the solar system, which are vital to the churchs core belief that humanity is the center of everything, its quite an important part on religion. Whats even more important is that Those Who Came Before really are an alternate story for Adam and Eve and the birth of Humanity, that we are clones or artificially created from Those Who came Before, so yeah I think Religion is quite relevant to this topic, however my comment was out of line for those of you who believe that religion isnt some artificial construct created by the Romans to keep control of civilisation... I apologise

rileypoole1234
06-21-2012, 04:08 AM
Basically Altair came up with the idea for TWCB in order to make people believe the apple had powers, as people were losing their faith in it. Everyone who had control over the apple knew it wasnt real and thus kept the myth going, so the templars would have used put the hologram in the animus, call it a fake memory if you must.

As for TWCB becomeing self aware, basically the concept of them became so complex that it kept itself going by using people to spread it and maniuplate it. The story sort of wrote itself, its an abstract view on what life actually is, another view on consciousness that isnt defined biologically.


Thanks for re-explaining, I get what you're saying now. It actually would be interesting if Templars somehow implanted a false memory into one of Desmond's sessions. That's not way to far fetched for an AC game now that I think about it.

Thanks for removing the last part, we don't want any flame wars erupting...

EDIT: I guess you're right, but it's not like they're directly mentioning Christianity or Judaism, etc. They basically made their own origin of humanity theory as you said. I didn't get to play the ACB DLC so I honestly didn't know about that.

Assassin_M
06-21-2012, 04:10 AM
I dont mean to bring it up again, you dont have to continue this strain of the conversation if you want, but I think Religion does play some part in the AC universe. The ACB DLC talks about Copernicus and his ideas about the solar system, which are vital to the churchs core belief that humanity is the center of everything, its quite an important part on religion. Whats even more important is that Those Who Came Before really are an alternate story for Adam and Eve and the birth of Humanity, that we are clones or artificially created from Those Who came Before, so yeah I think Religion is quite relevant to this topic, however my comment was out of line for those of you who believe that religion isnt some artificial construct created by the Romans to keep control of civilisation... I apologise
There are types of discussion about religion, ones that are relevant to the AC Universe and ones that are not..
Of course I completely agree with you, at that time the Templars controlled the Church and so decided that anyone preaching for anything other than the Church had to be eliminated..

that last comment just bashed religion, but since you removed it there was no harm done..

Jack-Reacher
06-21-2012, 04:14 AM
Ok as for Templars keeping it going, well basically since this is an entire alternate version of the AC universe I basically have to rewrite the story to keep this going, so bear with me if you are still interested.

In AC1 Al Mualim was basically a templar, was he not? Similar views yet he still fought against them. I think we shouldn't try and split these two groups up, I have a feeling they will somehow merge in the final game anyway but lets not go there. Basically however has the apple of eden controls history, so the true rulers are trying to control the myth that is TWCB.

However to make it even more wack, what if the people in the present actually believe the story because the previous leaders wanted them to, they didnt tell them the whole story that its fake? Somehow I have to make this work so that every human in the present believes in the story and it somehow keeps it going, because as long as someone knows the story isnt real, then the myth really isnt alive is it? Il work on that later.

Assassin_M
06-21-2012, 04:19 AM
Ok as for Templars keeping it going, well basically since this is an entire alternate version of the AC universe I basically have to rewrite the story to keep this going, so bear with me if you are still interested.

In AC1 Al Mualim was basically a templar, was he not? Similar views yet he still fought against them. I think we shouldn't try and split these two groups up, I have a feeling they will somehow merge in the final game anyway but lets not go there. Basically however has the apple of eden controls history, so the true rulers are trying to control the myth that is TWCB.

However to make it even more wack, what if the people in the present actually believe the story because the previous leaders wanted them to, they didnt tell them the whole story that its fake? Somehow I have to make this work so that every human in the present believes in the story and it somehow keeps it going, because as long as someone knows the story isnt real, then the myth really isnt alive is it? Il work on that later.
The Templars actually hid ANY trace of those who came before..
In the Glyphs, it was shown that the Templars planted fake skeletons in Ethiopia to explain the missing link in the evolutionary theory, so as to not raise awareness that this missing link was actually caused by Those who came before when they created the Humans using an existing Species..

rileypoole1234
06-21-2012, 04:22 AM
The Templars actually hid ANY trace of those who came before..
In the Glyphs, it was shown that the Templars planted fake skeletons in Ethiopia to explain the missing link in the evolutionary theory, so as to not raise awareness that this missing link was actually caused by Those who came before when they created the Humans using an existing Species..

Wow I totally forgot about that... Good memory.

Assassin_M
06-21-2012, 04:25 AM
Wow I totally forgot about that... Good memory.
Thanks..
Assassins Creed basically raises the importance of questioning.

Whether its Science, religion or rules..
Thats why its fascinating..

Jack-Reacher
06-21-2012, 04:29 AM
Nice find, never knew that...

Ok so the Templars want to keep the whole thing a secret because they want the normal world to think they have control through the normal means that are presented in the story. However the higher ups in the Templars know about TWCB and realise that the human race is better off if they believe in TWCB so they go into that trance you see in AC1, no fighting and no free will etc.

In order to get the rest of the population to believe in TWCB before and therefore believe that the templars have absoulte power when they launch the satellite with the POE, they need a way to manipulate the population into believing it. They are going to use the Assassins to break the news of TWCB by tricking the Assassins into doing it, thus giving them more credibility. Basically the Assassins will blow the whole thing wide open, which is what the higher ups in the templar order really want.

Assassin_M
06-21-2012, 04:30 AM
Nice find, never knew that...

Ok so the Templars want to keep the whole thing a secret because they want the normal world to think they have control through the normal means that are presented in the story. However the higher ups in the Templars know about TWCB and realise that the human race is better off if they believe in TWCB so they go into that trance you see in AC1, no fighting and no free will etc.

In order to get the rest of the population to believe in TWCB before and therefore believe that the templars have absoulte power when they launch the satellite with the POE, they need a way to manipulate the population into believing it. They are going to use the Assassins to break the news of TWCB by tricking the Assassins into doing it, thus giving them more credibility. Basically the Assassins will blow the whole thing wide open, which is what the higher ups in the templar order really want.
Why make the Humans believe in Those who came before in the first place ? when the Templars actually control EVERYTHING ??

Evenesque
06-21-2012, 04:31 AM
Your last comment is very offensive..

This is not some Atheist website where you can freely bash religion..

It's also not a catholic school. He can say what he wants. If it's overly offensive, mods will step in.

Assassin_M
06-21-2012, 04:33 AM
It's also not a catholic school. He can say what he wants. If it's overly offensive, mods will step in.
Mods are sometimes not here..
You may not find it offensive, but others will..

and he removed it so no point about arguing over it now..

Jack-Reacher
06-21-2012, 04:35 AM
It was just one line saying how I thought it was an analogy to todays religion, I gues mods can do what they like with this post right here and we will have it settled.

Why make the Humans believe in Those who came before in the first place ? when the Templars actually control EVERYTHING ??

My thoughts to, in the actual story they do control EVERYTHING, yet arent they launching the POE anyway? Basically my theory explains where the POEs power comes from. So their goal is exactly the same only the means through which it works is compeletely different. Personally I liked it in AC1 how al Mualim said it was all an illusion, im trying to bring that aspect back before ubisoft fully destroys it with technology like Konami destroyed MGS with nanomachines

Turul.
06-21-2012, 04:37 AM
i'd say this is a little far fetched, and definitely fantastical as many have already pointed out.

Though it is an interesting theory, it seems a bit silly since I see no basis behind you theory.

But it is thought provoking! :)

I definitely think there is something more to TWCB. I sense betrayal.

obliviondoll
06-21-2012, 06:25 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rcsMMOdZBzc

Skip to 4:40 and watch the proof that Those Who Came Before are TRANSFORMERS.

TrueStoic
06-21-2012, 08:54 AM
i liked corey may's story of the AC franchise over yours.
Cuz this is not what he wrote at all, you gave the look of a REALY fantastic story which just makes it that much less believable.
May's at least has that " it cannot be proven either way if it realy happened" room.

Jack-Reacher
06-21-2012, 09:47 AM
Mine isnt supposed to be realistic... its something I thought of while typing for gods sake dont take it so seriously, just add to it and stuff. Lot of people taking it too seriously, especially the whole religion stuff, that wasnt supposed to be taken to heart.

De Filosoof
06-21-2012, 10:55 AM
I don't even really ever remember Religion being in any AC game. Besides the Pope and that stuff, I don't remember Religion being discussed...

Isn't it against the rules to discuss Religion on the Forums? I think it is.

Wow, you really should read the codex pages.

I don't think Altair created such a myth because he was very wise and he was an atheist so that wouldn't make any sense.

Codex page 20 in AC2:

"I have studied the ancient pagan faiths that came before this more recent obsession with a single, divine creator. They seem to have focused more on the fundamental forces at play in the world around us and less on arbitrary moral rules...
The sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. The tides ebb and flow. Grass grows, withers, dies, and then in time, emerges from the ground once more. The air turns warm then cools and back again. Some hidden energy keeps us fitted to the ground and pulls us back when we attempt to leave it.
Each of these movements was represented before by a god or goddess. Each force given face, but recognized as something distinct and powerful. Which is not to say there were not connections between these forces – a pantheon of individual spirits – of rules. Invisible hands guiding the progress of the world around us.
And so here there was an attempt to categorize, study, explain, and understand the way things work – even if it was flawed. But no more. Now we are asked to succumb to a far more simplified explanation. How naive to believe there might be a single answer to every question. Every mystery. That there exists a lone divine light which rules over all. They say it is a light that brings truth and love. I say it is a light that blinds us – and forces us to stumble about in ignorance.
I long for the day when men turn away from invisible monsters and once more embrace a more rational view of the world. But these new religions are so convenient – and promise such terrible punishment should one reject them – I worry that fear shall keep us stuck to what is surely the greatest lie ever told".

LightRey
06-21-2012, 11:10 AM
This theory contradicts numerous events witnessed in the games (namely ACR) and more so events written down in Alta´r's Codex. It's just wrong. I'm actually hoping the OP is joking.

obliviondoll
06-21-2012, 11:46 AM
This theory contradicts numerous events witnessed in the games (namely ACR) and more so events written down in Alta´r's Codex. It's just wrong. I'm actually hoping the OP is joking.

I'd agree if I hadn't just seen this post right before yours:


Mine isnt supposed to be realistic... its something I thought of while typing for gods sake dont take it so seriously, just add to it and stuff.

LightRey
06-21-2012, 11:51 AM
I'd agree if I hadn't just seen this post right before yours:
You, as usual, fail to see the point. I'm not arguing it's unrealistic, I'm arguing it's impossible. We might as well be theorizing about how the Assassins will ride to victory on magical ponies.

obliviondoll
06-21-2012, 11:57 AM
the Assassins will ride to victory as magical ponies.

Fixed.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/big/000/087/322/assassin's creed pony sketch.png

EDIT: OK. Fine. A more serious answer for you.


I'm actually hoping the OP is joking.
dont take it so seriously

LightRey
06-21-2012, 12:00 PM
Fixed.

http://i3.kym-cdn.com/profiles/icons/big/000/087/322/assassin's creed pony sketch.png

EDIT: OK. Fine. A more serious answer for you.
Just because it's not entirely serious doesn't mean it's a joke.

obliviondoll
06-21-2012, 12:29 PM
Just because it's not entirely serious doesn't mean it's a joke.

Saying "don't take it so seriously" means it's not serious.

Saying it's "not realistic" doesn't mean (in context) that it makes no sense by real-world logic. It means that it isn't intended to make sense when you're working on the logic of the Assassin's Creed universe.

LightRey
06-21-2012, 12:42 PM
Saying "don't take it so seriously" means it's not serious.

Saying it's "not realistic" doesn't mean (in context) that it makes no sense by real-world logic. It means that it isn't intended to make sense when you're working on the logic of the Assassin's Creed universe.
Again, just because it's not serious doesn't mean it's a joke either. It could, and is, just a theory proposed to think outside the box. However, the theory is flawed on multiple levels to such an extent that the proposed perspective becomes somewhat useless, defeating the point of the out-of-the-box thinking in this way.

So? I don't disagree with that. My point is that it's impossible within the Assassin's Creed universe, not in our universe. Seriously, is it that hard to get the point for you?

obliviondoll
06-21-2012, 01:16 PM
I don't see why you're trying to distinguish between "not realistic" for the universe in question and "impossible" for said universe.

Also, there's plenty we don't know about the AC universe, some of which could potentially alter the meanings behind some events we've already seen. Kind of like the way so many things over the past 50 years have gone from "impossible" to actually happening.

LightRey
06-21-2012, 01:40 PM
I don't see why you're trying to distinguish between "not realistic" for the universe in question and "impossible" for said universe.

Also, there's plenty we don't know about the AC universe, some of which could potentially alter the meanings behind some events we've already seen. Kind of like the way so many things over the past 50 years have gone from "impossible" to actually happening.
Because there is a significant distinction. If it were unrealistic it'd be something worth discussing as it's still a valid point of view. However, in this case it simply directly contradicts facts provided in detail by the games (not to mention the novels). This means that the point of view that we're supposed to consider is not a point of view ever intended to be considered and thus unlikely to be relevant to the interpretation of the story and it's possible messages. Take the proposed attitude of Alta´r for example. We know this is not what happened. We already know what kind of person he was and we know what his intentions were throughout almost his entire life. What the OP proposes contradicts what we know about Alta´r already, making his proposed perspective of him (arguably) an irrelevant one. If it were simply unrealistic (therefore still possible), it would be worth considering as it's a possible way to interpret Alta´r's actions and therefore even if it's not what he was like, it may be how others (like Abbas for example) may have looked at him. Now, even at this point I might have considered the theory worthwhile, were it not that it veers off so strongly from the truth that it's simply creating an entirely new character. This is simply not Alta´r. Not at all. We could just as well be thinking of our own characters and interpreting them, which is ok, but not relevant to the story AC, at best relevant to our interpretations of it.

Well, technically there's no such thing as an impossibility, just improbability. When I use the term "impossible" I'm simply, like most if not all people, referring to an event so improbable it should not be considered an option at all. This is similar to the quantum mechanical possibility of me randomly teleporting to Jupiter. It's possible, but so unlikely I shouldn't consider it a possibility (unless it's exactly the point to consider highly unlikely events, but that's more a philosophical reason).

Ayush_S92
06-21-2012, 04:12 PM
Wow..I see you both fighting on every thread...seriously?

Anyways, coming to the point. If Altair made it all up how did he come up with the idea of guns and all that advanced technology at his time? That means he is the most genius person who ever existed on this planet.

OriginalMiles
06-21-2012, 04:34 PM
(Clears throat)

Native to Earth and a product of thousands of years of evolution, the origins of the First Civilization are unclear. Minerva simply stated that they "came before," and were responsible for the creation of humanity, forming the species in their own image to be a capable, but docile workforce.
While Minerva noted that they built humanity to survive, it was made known by Juno that they were not intended to be wise, thereby ensuring obedient and resilient cattle to suit their needs.

Research by Clay Kaczmarek seemed to suggest that the First Civilization radically altered the genetic make-up of a pre-existing species on the planet to create humanity, fashioning them to be similar to their "gods", and therefore leaving a large gap in terms of transitional species between archaic hominids and modern humans. By 1997, the Templars had taken note of this and had arranged for fake skeletons to be planted in Ethiopia, so as to limit human exposure to the possibility of the existence of the First Civilization.

In order to assure the control of humanity, various technologies were created by the ancient but advanced race, named Pieces of Eden, which tapped into a neuro-transmitter located deep within the human brain. However, there were some humans born without the neuro-transmitter, hypothesized by Clay to be hybrids of the First Civilization and humans, and could subsequently live without being controlled through such means.

Instigated by the theft of an Apple of Eden by Adam and Eve, the human rebellion soon erupted into full scale war with their "gods".]While the First Civilization were more technologically advanced and powerful, humanity had the advantage of numbers; most likely outnumbering their creators by the millions, far too much for the Pieces of Eden to effectively handle.
The war did eventually end, although the casualties were greater than the First Civilization could have ever anticipated. The distraction of war had blinded them to all else, and their preoccupation with the war prevented them from seeing the signs of an impending danger from the "heavens".

By the time it was made aware to them, it was already too late. Shaun Hastings and Lucy Stillman later theorized that this danger could have been a massive solar flare that flipped the Earth's weakening magnetic field, reversing the polarity and making the planet geologically unstable. This hypothesis was supported by evidence found by Clay:

While both races survived the catastrophe, few of either species remained. Working together, they rebuilt their world, though humanity continued to view Minerva's kind as gods. Despite their survival, the First Civilization were unable to fully recover and began heading toward extinction.
They knew however, that the catastrophe which had burned their world before would eventually reoccur, and so they took steps to prevent it, by recording a holographic, yet interactive, message to serve as a warning to those who entered the Vault in Rome. In it, Minerva warned of the impending doom, and spoke of the Temples that could save Earth from destruction, built by those who "knew to turn away from war."

Delivering their message to the Assassin Desmond Miles, who was viewing the memories of his ancestor Ezio Auditore, Minerva warned that time was short, and that "the Cross" would stand in their way. With the deliverance of that message, one of the last remaining vestiges of the First Civilization faded away.

And bang goes your theory!

LightRey
06-21-2012, 04:47 PM
Wow..I see you both fighting on every thread...seriously?

Anyways, coming to the point. If Altair made it all up how did he come up with the idea of guns and all that advanced technology at his time? That means he is the most genius person who ever existed on this planet.
If by every thread you mean 2 of them (or 3 if you want to count the one from a while ago), then yes.

Sukramo
06-21-2012, 05:46 PM
I still belive they will be the final enemies of the series. Animus cognetic storage exists so their minds could live on.

I mean, why else care about humanity?

LightRey
06-21-2012, 07:26 PM
I still belive they will be the final enemies of the series. Animus cognetic storage exists so their minds could live on.

I mean, why else care about humanity?
Why not? These are those of TWCB that supposedly did not want to fight the war. These are those of TWCB who were supposedly actually working together with humans. They care about humanity because they consider them friends, possibly even successors or kin.

POP1Fan
06-21-2012, 07:41 PM
Why not? These are those of TWCB that supposedly did not want to fight the war. These are those of TWCB who were supposedly actually working together with humans. They care about humanity because they consider them friends, possibly even successors or kin.

This, but I think there is very much of TWCB we haven't seen yet.

Jack-Reacher
06-21-2012, 11:15 PM
Alright simple fix, Altair is pretty much the same, its Al Mualim who made up TWCB and thus made Altair beleive him that the apple had power. However it didnt effect Altair because he simply believed it wouldn't affect him.

As for the big article on Templars covering it up, again the Templars are split up, most of the company thinks they are real and are trying to cover them up, the higher ups dont think its real but want the Assassins to spill the story to the world to make it seem more credible.

agitatedchimp
06-22-2012, 01:27 AM
1. If TWCB didn't exist where did the apple come from in the first place and how does it create an illusion anyway you said it wasn't an advanced piece of technology so how does it create an illusion?

2. In AC1 we see the apple control the assassins and citizens of Masyaf because of Al Mualim however, at this time they didn't even know the apple of Eden existed so how could they be alluded? They had no conscious fear of the apple?

3. The end cinematic of ACR kinda proves they did exist.

4. If TWCB didn't exist then how does 'Eagle sense' exist? and how were all the vaults created? how were any of the other pieces of eden ever created? How did Altair obtain the technology to create the memory seals for Ezio? What is was the whole point of Desmonds character in the first place...?... -Oh forget it I could go on all day

agitatedchimp
06-22-2012, 01:37 AM
You, as usual, fail to see the point. I'm not arguing it's unrealistic, I'm arguing it's impossible. We might as well be theorizing about how the Assassins will ride to victory on magical ponies.

Woah wait there! The ponies are all an illusion they are AI's that are programmed into the animus by the templars!! DUH Don't you see? It's the templars grand scheme!! By tricking us into believing the ponies they can control us with the fear that one day the ponies will come back from the sun and shoot us with solar flares! However, what they don't know is that the lie was created by Connor so the unicorns wouldn't lose power :rolleyes:

Assassin_M
06-22-2012, 01:48 AM
I have to commend you, OP for this Theory. Its definitely far-fetched, but it stirred thought and recollection of very important events and facts.
This also proves that the AC series` writing is very solid and well-planned to the fact that it really has no plot holes or any "unexplained" (there is unexplained, but you get my point)

There are lots of facts that need to be seen and addressed for your theory to have at least 1% of possibility..

obliviondoll
06-22-2012, 02:13 AM
1. If TWCB didn't exist where did the apple come from in the first place and how does it create an illusion anyway you said it wasn't an advanced piece of technology so how does it create an illusion?

2. In AC1 we see the apple control the assassins and citizens of Masyaf because of Al Mualim however, at this time they didn't even know the apple of Eden existed so how could they be alluded? They had no conscious fear of the apple?

3. The end cinematic of ACR kinda proves they did exist.

4. If TWCB didn't exist then how does 'Eagle sense' exist? and how were all the vaults created? how were any of the other pieces of eden ever created? How did Altair obtain the technology to create the memory seals for Ezio? What is was the whole point of Desmonds character in the first place...?... -Oh forget it I could go on all day

1. Alta´r really WAS drugged by Al Mualim, along with the rest of the Assassins. Al Mualim's word + drugs = belief, except that Altair stopped believing.

2. We show up and Al Mualim has already taken control of Masyaf. It's possible he did this by drugging everyone and convincing them to follow him. They already looked up to him as a leader, so using "magic" while they're hallucinating would have a big impact.

3. Unless we assume that the people involved are drugged or experiencing something similar to an acid flashback, either due to past drug use or something else that's reawakened the person's genetic memories somehow.

4. If you read the first game's description of Eagle Vision, it's implied that Alta´r probably DIDN'T see the world that way, but that it's a visual representation of how Alta´r was able to read people's behaviour to get an idea of their intentions towards him. And there's nothing to solidly confirm that the Pieces of Eden will achieve anything without drug-addled people convincing themselves they do, and later generations retaining genetic memories of the drug-addled sight of "miracles" that never really happened quite the way they were remembered.

Taking a couple of examples given by Al Mualim which were supposedly caused by Pieces of Eden:

It's possible Moses led the group across a rickety old bridge while they were all hallucinating so badly they couldn't see it, then when the army charged in behind, the added weight of armour with the extra pressure from running caused the bridge to fall apart. It's a miracle! ... but not really.

We already KNOW that everyone had been drinking for ages when Jesus served them water. They expected wine, so they tasted the wine they'd already been drinking. Have you ever got horribly drunk then tried to figure out what something tastes like? Water tastes pretty good when you're wasted, and also helps to lessen hangovers, which could make it seem even more like magical wine. If it was red, he might have needed something to make the colour right, or close enough... like a couple of glasses of the wine they hadn't quite finished yet.

And the point of Desmond's character is about the same as the point of Alice in her stories. Someone who seems normal, but is actually probably locked up somewhere out of fear for the safety of those around them.


EDIT: I'm not saying I BELIEVE this theory, just providing possible ways that it might actually be an almost-coherent possible alternative to the more rational theories.

RatonhnhakeFan
06-22-2012, 02:19 AM
I have to commend you, OP for this Theory. Its definitely far-fetched, but it stirred thought and recollection of very important events and facts.
This also proves that the AC series` writing is very solid and well-planned to the fact that it really has no plot holes or any "unexplained" (there is unexplained, but you get my point)There kinda is one. DDS and memory farming. It ain't exactly explained how it's done (yet), but if this is about taking a hair or skin sample and sticking it into DDS so anyone can relive the memories from the DNA in this hair/skin sample, then it kinda renders Abstergo's plan to capture Desmond and hold him prisoner pointless. There's also the Shroud which is capable of recording memories by touch and imprinting these memories on others who touch it. And it seems the Shroud is in Abstergo's hands so...

We'll see but they should do some explaining about that in AC3.

Calvarok
06-22-2012, 04:42 AM
I don't understand how it would be at all interesting or good for the story if the entire plot was just retconned out through total BS explanations like existing but never having existed. Irregardless of how this could be stretched to make sense, why would anyone actually want the story to turn out this way?

KRD2
06-22-2012, 05:19 AM
Can somebody help me? Ok, I have not a clue what is going on, but for some reason, one of the easiest achievements in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood, the DLC achievement (for the Da Vinci Disappearance) "Going Up", where you must kill a guard using the falling bag of a lift, WILL NOT POP. I have gotten at least 100 kills with lift bags, and yes i do have the DLC. I have gotten every other DLC achievement (except for Il Principe) just fine, on first my tries. I have tried both the free roam and "The Ezio Auditore Affair" (memory 6 of DLC, where you steal the paintings from the Castel) methods MULTIPLE TIMES (over 100 times, no exaggeration). I am stummped and frustrated beyond compare. Please reply to this as soon as possible. Please, i am a serious achievement hunter and this 5g problem must be solved! Thank you in advance for any help.

razaqazy
06-22-2012, 05:43 AM
Can somebody help me? Ok, I have not a clue what is going on, but for some reason, one of the easiest achievements in Assassin's Creed: Brotherhood, the DLC achievement (for the Da Vinci Disappearance) "Going Up", where you must kill a guard using the falling bag of a lift, WILL NOT POP. I have gotten at least 100 kills with lift bags, and yes i do have the DLC. I have gotten every other DLC achievement (except for Il Principe) just fine, on first my tries. I have tried both the free roam and "The Ezio Auditore Affair" (memory 6 of DLC, where you steal the paintings from the Castel) methods MULTIPLE TIMES (over 100 times, no exaggeration). I am stummped and frustrated beyond compare. Please reply to this as soon as possible. Please, i am a serious achievement hunter and this 5g problem must be solved! Thank you in advance for any help.

I have been reading this possible captivating, alternative universe of AC and the people circling around it; however, where the heck did this come from!... Wow :eek: nice place to post a problem when people are busy theorizing....

KRD2
06-22-2012, 06:41 AM
Well, you want to know my theory? The templars hate me and dont want me to get my achievement i payed 10 bucks for. It doesnt help everyone is to good to help me on every site from youtube to ubisoft to wiki answers to gamefaqs...the list goes on. Thats my theory. You want my theory on the matter at hand. I think it's a load that makes for a good story.

Jack-Reacher
06-22-2012, 06:47 AM
1. If TWCB didn't exist where did the apple come from in the first place and how does it create an illusion anyway you said it wasn't an advanced piece of technology so how does it create an illusion?

2. In AC1 we see the apple control the assassins and citizens of Masyaf because of Al Mualim however, at this time they didn't even know the apple of Eden existed so how could they be alluded? They had no conscious fear of the apple?

3. The end cinematic of ACR kinda proves they did exist.

4. If TWCB didn't exist then how does 'Eagle sense' exist? and how were all the vaults created? how were any of the other pieces of eden ever created? How did Altair obtain the technology to create the memory seals for Ezio? What is was the whole point of Desmonds character in the first place...?... -Oh forget it I could go on all day

1. It is simply a piece of rock sculpted to look like it has power, Al Mualim used Garniers herbs to make people trip and then put on a magic show, in a way they are all now insane while they believe in the POE as their view on reality is distorted, thus creating the illusion. Again, people believed Jesus did all sorts of crazy stuff and still do today, however he pulled it off back then is probably how Mualism did it back then


2. See 1, he might have called a town meeting and drugged their food like the guy in Damascus did.

3. The cinematic was an video brainwashed into Desmond by the animus and was created by the AI that is a manifestation of TWCB myth.

4 Subject 16 never existed, the animius was designed to distort Desmonds mind so that he thought he could see the eagle sense, but it was just programmed into his mind in order to think that SPOILERS

Lucy was his ally when really she isnt. The writing on the wall were left by Subject 16, and AI controlled by the myth of TWCB to lead Desmon into a wild goose chase through the glyphs in order to convince him that they are real and that TWCB existed, this is all part of the plan to get the Assassins to blow the story wide open in a credible way which will be revealed in AC3, part of Desmonds role.

The vaults were never created because Desmond isnt even reliving memories, the animus is just a big brainwashing tool to convince Desmond they are real. This also give us room to show that it isnt impossible that Altair started the myth as the animus recordings of him are all fake, used to convince Desmond of a different past. Basically the animus cant produce memory simulations, thats ridiculous. Instead it is a computer program run by TWCB AI.

playassassins1
06-22-2012, 07:10 AM
Well. what about the big disaster thats going to happen in 2012???

1. Its basically desmonds goal throughout every game to save the world..

2. TWCB told Desmond, and the Templars also believe its true/Know its true.

3. If they wouldn't exist, this whole game would have been pointless.....

Jack-Reacher
06-22-2012, 07:12 AM
The big disaster will be the Assassins releasing the myth to the world thinking they have blown Abstergos cover as Templars and telling the human race the truth about the past, however this will only make the myth live on and thus give the Templar satellite launch real power over the people. Basically it goes back to AC1s story and we ignore the solar flare, the solar flare is to distract the assassins from the real threat, the satellite launch.

playassassins1
06-22-2012, 07:15 AM
The big disaster will be the Assassins releasing the myth to the world thinking they have blown Abstergos cover as Templars and telling the human race the truth about the past, however this will only make the myth live on and thus give the Templar satellite launch real power over the people. Basically it goes back to AC1s story and we ignore the solar flare, the solar flare is to distract the assassins from the real threat, the satellite launch.


How do you know this true? It seems like you're sure about it.

Jack-Reacher
06-22-2012, 07:18 AM
It does? Because I swear posting before saying I don't believe in this theory and it shouldn't be taken seriously, yet we still have people going over it with a magnifying glass pointing out errors.

playassassins1
06-22-2012, 07:38 AM
Well. they did talk about a big twist. And your theory might be the big twist.

Jack-Reacher
06-22-2012, 07:53 AM
There you have it people, the casual gamer finds the theory plausible. All it takes is a bit of imagination no?

playassassins1
06-22-2012, 07:56 AM
There you have it people, the casual gamer finds the theory plausible. All it takes is a bit of imagination no?

I never doubted your theory.... I just wasn't sure.

agitatedchimp
06-22-2012, 01:33 PM
1. It is simply a piece of rock sculpted to look like it has power, Al Mualim used Garniers herbs to make people trip and then put on a magic show, in a way they are all now insane while they believe in the POE as their view on reality is distorted, thus creating the illusion. Again, people believed Jesus did all sorts of crazy stuff and still do today, however he pulled it off back then is probably how Mualism did it back then


2. See 1, he might have called a town meeting and drugged their food like the guy in Damascus did.

3. The cinematic was an video brainwashed into Desmond by the animus and was created by the AI that is a manifestation of TWCB myth.

4 Subject 16 never existed, the animius was designed to distort Desmonds mind so that he thought he could see the eagle sense, but it was just programmed into his mind in order to think that SPOILERS

Lucy was his ally when really she isnt. The writing on the wall were left by Subject 16, and AI controlled by the myth of TWCB to lead Desmon into a wild goose chase through the glyphs in order to convince him that they are real and that TWCB existed, this is all part of the plan to get the Assassins to blow the story wide open in a credible way which will be revealed in AC3, part of Desmonds role.

The vaults were never created because Desmond isnt even reliving memories, the animus is just a big brainwashing tool to convince Desmond they are real. This also give us room to show that it isnt impossible that Altair started the myth as the animus recordings of him are all fake, used to convince Desmond of a different past. Basically the animus cant produce memory simulations, thats ridiculous. Instead it is a computer program run by TWCB AI.

Okay so what you're saying is that Al Mualim controlled the minds and actions of hundreds of humans by giving them some weird drug? Do you generally realize how ridiculous and improbable that sounds? really? Why does he need the apple then? ffs! he could just get everyone in the middle east high right? With his magic pixie dust drug.

Pretty much every single part of your theory is contradicted by the codex pages. But I already know what you're going to say: 'They were put into the animus by the Templars...'
Every contradiction this theory has you will counter with 'Altair was a lier', 'TWCB never existed' or my personal favorite 'The templars put it into the animus as an AI'

1. How did Desmond ever end up in the black room? did thee templars suddenly think "Oh hey we're trying to brain wash the guy (for reasons completely unknown) - but hey you know what lets just put the guy into a Coma" And of course you're going to say the black room never existed along with subject 16 despite all the DLC proving he existed.

2. Why are we even playing as Desmond? SERIOUSLY. If your theory is true why they hell did we ever play any of the games? why are we Desmond in the first place? why was we Altair and Why was we Ezio? Why did ACR even exist as a game in the first place? Im guessing you're probably going to say Ezio was a raving lunatic with a huge drug stash really.

3. Why are we Desmond? yet again if the TWCB didn't exist then why are we ever Desmond in the first place, why did any of the games even exist? Without TWCB Desmond is pretty much some random bartender guy who ran away from home (Desmonds origin story is another contradiction btw) why would Abstergo waste soo much time and effort by brainwashing 1 Bartender? they don't need to brainwash people like that if they're going to lauch the PoE into orbit anyway.

4. The CODEX PAGES and ACR prove this whole theory wrong.

agitatedchimp
06-22-2012, 01:53 PM
1. Alta´r really WAS drugged by Al Mualim, along with the rest of the Assassins. Al Mualim's word + drugs = belief, except that Altair stopped believing.

2. We show up and Al Mualim has already taken control of Masyaf. It's possible he did this by drugging everyone and convincing them to follow him. They already looked up to him as a leader, so using "magic" while they're hallucinating would have a big impact.

3. Unless we assume that the people involved are drugged or experiencing something similar to an acid flashback, either due to past drug use or something else that's reawakened the person's genetic memories somehow.

4. If you read the first game's description of Eagle Vision, it's implied that Alta´r probably DIDN'T see the world that way, but that it's a visual representation of how Alta´r was able to read people's behaviour to get an idea of their intentions towards him. And there's nothing to solidly confirm that the Pieces of Eden will achieve anything without drug-addled people convincing themselves they do, and later generations retaining genetic memories of the drug-addled sight of "miracles" that never really happened quite the way they were remembered.

Taking a couple of examples given by Al Mualim which were supposedly caused by Pieces of Eden:

It's possible Moses led the group across a rickety old bridge while they were all hallucinating so badly they couldn't see it, then when the army charged in behind, the added weight of armour with the extra pressure from running caused the bridge to fall apart. It's a miracle! ... but not really.

We already KNOW that everyone had been drinking for ages when Jesus served them water. They expected wine, so they tasted the wine they'd already been drinking. Have you ever got horribly drunk then tried to figure out what something tastes like? Water tastes pretty good when you're wasted, and also helps to lessen hangovers, which could make it seem even more like magical wine. If it was red, he might have needed something to make the colour right, or close enough... like a couple of glasses of the wine they hadn't quite finished yet.

And the point of Desmond's character is about the same as the point of Alice in her stories. Someone who seems normal, but is actually probably locked up somewhere out of fear for the safety of those around them.


EDIT: I'm not saying I BELIEVE this theory, just providing possible ways that it might actually be an almost-coherent possible alternative to the more rational theories.

Okay so let me get this straight:

Al Mualim now has the biggest drug supply perhaps in the world and this magic drug was used on EVERYONE in Masyaf except Altair because he miraculously stopped believing - It's clear he believed in the apple of Edens power. Once an idea is put into someones head you can't just forget about it. It stays there in the back of your mind slowly corrupting you, you can't just make your mind chose what to believe in. Also In ACR the apple is shown to physically kill people. How? Do they think "Oh dude im tripping out I know lets die by some magic apple that can't kill people, we'll just spontaneously die because we believe that is what it will do".

2. Yes but how does Eagle vision even exist in the first place? what enables Altair to see the world that way in the first place? and what about Ezio and Desmond?

3. If the Apple is something that alludes people then how can it physically re awaken a past substance is someones body? That contradicts your theory of what the apple even is.

4. If these so called drugs ever existed in the first place then why do you even need the Apple in the first place? This drug is shown to be able to control the mind of it's victim? The apple wouldn't even be needed, abstergo could just re-create a futuristic looking relic and claim it's the apple of eden and even then whats the point? If you can control minds with a drug then what is significant about the apple?

I'm not mad I just find this theory soo irritating as it generally makes no sense at all. There's just so many contradictions to the theory. I do understand what the theory is its just too..... similar to mass effect for my liking, nevermind the fact it doesn't make sense.

Also I wouldn't use religious examples people might get offended by that

POP1Fan
06-22-2012, 02:33 PM
What the **** is happening in this thread?? Al Mualim the dealer, really?? What next, Ezio the pimp??

obliviondoll
06-22-2012, 03:29 PM
Okay so let me get this straight:

Al Mualim now has the biggest drug supply perhaps in the world and this magic drug was used on EVERYONE in Masyaf except Altair because he miraculously stopped believing - It's clear he believed in the apple of Edens power. Once an idea is put into someones head you can't just forget about it. It stays there in the back of your mind slowly corrupting you, you can't just make your mind chose what to believe in. Also In ACR the apple is shown to physically kill people. How? Do they think "Oh dude im tripping out I know lets die by some magic apple that can't kill people, we'll just spontaneously die because we believe that is what it will do".

Alta´r was given reason to disbelieve Al Mualim, giving him the opportunity to alter his perception of the world to something other than what Al Mualim was telling him, but being drugged, he was still experiencing a lot of weird things. He didn't stop believing in the power of the Apple, just in Al Mualim's ability to control him with that power.

As for killing people, how do you know it wasn't just being used to banish hallucinations, or to produce negative hallucinations?

And yes, it's a pretty flimsy theory, but it's a FUN flimsy theory if you're willing to play along to some extent.


2. Yes but how does Eagle vision even exist in the first place? what enables Altair to see the world that way in the first place? and what about Ezio and Desmond?

Eagle Vision can be passed off as a combination of two elements - the previously-suggested "acid flashback" effect of reliving an ancestor's memories while said ancestor was drugged, and the Animus providing a visual representation of a superhuman ability to read people and identify subtle clues that most people miss.


3. If the Apple is something that alludes people then how can it physically re awaken a past substance is someones body? That contradicts your theory of what the apple even is.

When did I say the Apple is doing anything? Do you know what an acid flashback is? When you take hallucinogenic substances, they frequently cause "flashbacks" well after the effects have subsided, where the hallucinations you experienced come back as if you've taken the drug again. If you get drugged and convinced of something once, it will sometimes be easy to trigger a flashback to that state of belief in what you previously saw.


4. If these so called drugs ever existed in the first place then why do you even need the Apple in the first place? This drug is shown to be able to control the mind of it's victim? The apple wouldn't even be needed, abstergo could just re-create a futuristic looking relic and claim it's the apple of eden and even then whats the point? If you can control minds with a drug then what is significant about the apple?

Hallucinogenic drugs still exist in real life today. You drug someone when they don't know it's happening, they start hallucinating, and they're likely to be quite open to psychological manipulation at that time. You convince them you have a magical object, and provide (staged) evidence of its power, and they'll see and experience things that reinforce the apparent power of your "magical Apple of Eden" or whatever you use. And the flashbacks could easily be triggered by the sight of the object you're using.

The reason for using an object in conjunction with the drugs is to tie the hallucinations to something you can use as a trigger to make flashbacks more likely to happen when you want them to, in those instances where you don't get a chance to drug the person before exposing them to its power.


I'm not mad I just find this theory soo irritating as it generally makes no sense at all. There's just so many contradictions to the theory. I do understand what the theory is its just too..... similar to mass effect for my liking, nevermind the fact it doesn't make sense.

Mass Effect has mass drug-induced hallucinations being used as a basis for believe in magic, religion and advanced technology that doesn't really exist? That makes it sound more interesting than I thought it was.


Also I wouldn't use religious examples people might get offended by that

I wasn't using religious examples. I was using examples provided in the game as times the Apple had supposedly been used in the past. The fact that they happen to resemble events in real-world religious texts is completely irrelevant to the discussion.


What the **** is happening in this thread?? Al Mualim the dealer, really?? What next, Ezio the pimp??

But Ezio IS a pimp. Take a look at a pic of him with one of his hoes:

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/101/8/5/ezio__s_hoe_by_thedeadbee-d4vt4lg.jpg

agitatedchimp
06-22-2012, 03:45 PM
But Ezio IS a pimp. Take a look at a pic of him with one of his hoes:

http://fc01.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/101/8/5/ezio__s_hoe_by_thedeadbee-d4vt4lg.jpg
Lol xD but seriously i can't be bothered to even go into this theory anymore its too weird

agitatedchimp
06-22-2012, 03:47 PM
Lol well not in the specifics of being the same but the theory is very similar to Mass effects ending. The hallucinations for the most part.

And yeah just mentioning Jesus and Moses as an exemplified reference to a video game shouldn't be done I wouldn't bring that up again the thread could be closed

Jack-Reacher
06-22-2012, 09:00 PM
Okay so what you're saying is that Al Mualim controlled the minds and actions of hundreds of humans by giving them some weird drug? Do you generally realize how ridiculous and improbable that sounds? really? Why does he need the apple then? ffs! he could just get everyone in the middle east high right? With his magic pixie dust drug.

Pretty much every single part of your theory is contradicted by the codex pages. But I already know what you're going to say: 'They were put into the animus by the Templars...'
Every contradiction this theory has you will counter with 'Altair was a lier', 'TWCB never existed' or my personal favorite 'The templars put it into the animus as an AI'

1. How did Desmond ever end up in the black room? did thee templars suddenly think "Oh hey we're trying to brain wash the guy (for reasons completely unknown) - but hey you know what lets just put the guy into a Coma" And of course you're going to say the black room never existed along with subject 16 despite all the DLC proving he existed.

2. Why are we even playing as Desmond? SERIOUSLY. If your theory is true why they hell did we ever play any of the games? why are we Desmond in the first place? why was we Altair and Why was we Ezio? Why did ACR even exist as a game in the first place? Im guessing you're probably going to say Ezio was a raving lunatic with a huge drug stash really.

3. Why are we Desmond? yet again if the TWCB didn't exist then why are we ever Desmond in the first place, why did any of the games even exist? Without TWCB Desmond is pretty much some random bartender guy who ran away from home (Desmonds origin story is another contradiction btw) why would Abstergo waste soo much time and effort by brainwashing 1 Bartender? they don't need to brainwash people like that if they're going to lauch the PoE into orbit anyway.

4. The CODEX PAGES and ACR prove this whole theory wrong.

The thread should be closed because you got bored of discussing it?

1. At the end of ACB, Juno brainwashed Desmond into killing Lucy, to keep up with the crazy myth. Desmond realised later what he had done and went into a psychotic break for killing the love of his life, this is what the black room is. In order to justify killing Lucy, he had to beleive in TWCB, as they told him to do it.

2. Seriously? I told you not to take this seriously... whatever il play along for fun. We are being brainwashed as Desmond in order to have him and the Assassins release the myth in a credible way to make the POE work.

3.Again, they need the assassins to spread the myth.

4. The Codex pages were a creation of the animus. its like saying im wrong because the bible says so... really want me to go there? ACR was a psychotic break.

Every contradiction this theory has you will counter with 'Altair was a lier', 'TWCB never existed' or my personal favorite 'The templars put it into the animus as an AI'

Uh yeah, how else am I going to keep the theory going? Why are you even bothering trying to counter something we both know doesnt exist anyway? It was just a little story I made up for some entertainment, no need to lose your cool over it man.

Oh and as for Al Mualim, he needed the POE to prolong the drug forever when people sober up, he cant just go around getting people drugged everytime, he just needed to do it once. Probably like Jesus did.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 06:44 AM
I Can prove that the assassins creed franchise proves Christianity to be TRUE!
if anyone is willing to listen, I believe that I have all the answers backed up by facts stated both in the games, and in the bible

(Christians please respond)

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 06:46 AM
I Can prove that the assassins creed franchise proves Christianity to be TRUE!
if anyone is willing to listen, I believe that I have all the answers backed up by facts stated both in the games, and in the bible

(Christians please respond)

Lol. This is pretty sad, really. AC is fictional, if anything, it says all religion is fake.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 06:48 AM
I think I posted on the wrong page before,
I'm new to this site and I wanted to get my opinion out there!

I can prove that the Assassins Creed franchise supports Christianity 100%

If anyone sees this, please respond because if I don't get this out to someone else, I feel I may EXPLODE!!!

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 06:49 AM
It does not. It says all religion is fake, lies. TWCB are a ancient race who made humanity in their image, all of the ''miracles'' are caused by Peices of Eden, nothing by god. That is how AC works, it cannot ''support'' Christianity.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 07:36 AM
Not true, if you are willing to listen I would gladly prove it

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 07:37 AM
Then enlighten us.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 07:41 AM
Not true, if you are willing to listen I would gladly prove it

I just need your consent, if you agree, I'm happy to share my findings

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 07:43 AM
Tell us. Show us.
I want too see what you have to say.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 07:49 AM
Then enlighten us.

All right!, it's kinda long winded, and it takes a certain interpretation and state of mind to get it, but bear with me

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 07:49 AM
Not a problem, I want too see it. This could be interesting..

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 07:52 AM
First off, on the case of Jesus Christ, the game claims his deciphles used the shroud of eden to resurrect him, however if one looks into the site entitled, "The Assassins Creed Wiki" you will find numerous pages about characters, background stories, people not seen in games, people not seen in comics, and interestingly enough, detailed facts about each individual piece of eden that has been seen in the games

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 07:54 AM
The Shroud of Eden, being a piece of TWCB technology, was used to resurrect Jesus. This does not prove anything, infact, it proves even further that religion is ''fake'' in AC, because it was not a miracle or power that ressurected him.
Many of those are featured in comic books, AC encyclopedia, Project Legacy, and so on.
And what is wrong with having details on all the POE's?

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 07:54 AM
And if you click on the highlighted link leading to the page about the shroud of eden, it says that:
" After Brutus' death, his followers gathered in Philippi, Macedonia, and tried to use the Shroud of Eden to bring him back. However, the Shroud was not capable of such restoration, and though Brutus opened his eyes and moved, he did not appear to breathe, and eventually fell still in a seeming second death."

So I ask you, if the shroud is proven to not be able to restore life then how did Jesus rise from the dead

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 07:57 AM
But here it is: Jesus' miracles were granted from the powers of the Shroud, a Piece of Eden. The Templars had Christ crucified, with the sole purpose of gaining the Shroud. It is believed that the disciples stole the Shroud back and possibly used it to resurrect their Messiah. However, this theory is likely false, due to the case of the Assassin Brutus, where the Shroud proved it could not restore life, only re-animate bodies for a short period of time.

Basically, it says that it is all false. Jesus just died.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 07:59 AM
Furthermore, any devout follower of the Christian faith would know ( not to sound condescending in Any! Way! ) that when a person dies, their soul does NOT leave their body right away!

Rather, their soul falls dormant and they "sleep" in their bodies, devoid of consciousness until Christs second coming, when all will be raised from the dead and judged according to their actions

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:01 AM
Furthermore, any devout follower of the Christian faith would know ( not to sound condescending in Any! Way! ) that when a person dies, their soul does NOT leave their body right away!

Rather, their soul falls dormant and they "sleep" in their bodies, devoid of consciousness until Christs second coming, when all will be raised from the dead and judged according to their actions

That is in Christianity, in AC, all religion is proved false by the existance of creatures called The Ones Who Came Before, they created humans in their image, and had powerful technology too control them. The humans broke free, a apocalypse happened, and humans re-built. All of the miracles, everything, is caused by the Pieces of Eden.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:03 AM
But here it is: Jesus' miracles were granted from the powers of the Shroud, a Piece of Eden. The Templars had Christ crucified, with the sole purpose of gaining the Shroud. It is believed that the disciples stole the Shroud back and possibly used it to resurrect their Messiah. However, this theory is likely false, due to the case of the Assassin Brutus, where the Shroud proved it could not restore life, only re-animate bodies for a short period of time.

Basically, it says that it is all false. Jesus just died.
Sorry having trouble keeping up here, but the implication in the games is that the biblical accounts happened, they were just misinterpreted, and things were taken as fact

But how do you "fake" a recorded account that Jesus' body was removed from it's tomb, while concealed by a massive boulder that would have required an army to move, and being guarded by several armed soldiers

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:06 AM
The game says that all of them are mis-interpreted, all of those miracles were caused by Peices of Eden.
Too answer you, how? as I said. Peices of Eden. They can twist reality, change everything, really. A Apple could have just been used.
Or Templars. Templars have commands of armies, political figures, they are everywhere.
Those are at best, or really, it could have just been Templars writing history. Making those things up too make people un-aware.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:08 AM
The implication, from my point of view, wanting to play the game through a mental filter, is that the pieces of eden were not actually pieces of technology, rather they were percieved as scientific devices, because that's the only way people could comprehend their power

When in actuality, they were artifacts that were stolen from god and his angels (those who came before) and used as weapons among men on earth, while only his prophets, in Jesus' bloodline could use them to their full potential, and make illusions become reality; i.e: Moses used the staff to actually part the red sea, because his connection to God allowed him to make his thoughts become reality

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:10 AM
I figure God instructed Jesus to carry the apple and the shroud to make the templars believe they were the source of his powers, when in actuality he was doing it himself, thereby making them think they had taken his powers away, so they could crucify him, unwittingly carrying out god's original plan

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:12 AM
Actually, no. In game, the only way for somebody too truly use them too their potential, is through having high concentration of Those Who Came Before bloodline. Such as our character, Desmond. Jesus was simply using them in their normal state.
They were, stated in the game, pieces of technology. Technology that was used too control all of mankind, before Adam and Eve, stole them and used them too break free, but soon, a solar flare happened, which destroyed the world. Less than 10000 survived. They re-built, the technology remained, and was used across time, the Templars wrote history. They fabricated many things, the Bible is no exception.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:14 AM
The game says that all of them are mis-interpreted, all of those miracles were caused by Peices of Eden.
Too answer you, how? as I said. Peices of Eden. They can twist reality, change everything, really. A Apple could have just been used.
Or Templars. Templars have commands of armies, political figures, they are everywhere.
Those are at best, or really, it could have just been Templars writing history. Making those things up too make people un-aware.

Fair enough,...but I do have more: Consider this, what if the game were to maybe, (and this is a big maybe, I'll admit it) take on the idea that the pieces of eden were Not actually being used to control humanity

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:16 AM
I mean have any members of the first civilization (Juno, Minerva, Jupiter) actually said the devices were used to enslave them, or did the humans in the game think that's what they were doing?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:16 AM
Well...maybe....
But it was stated in the game that it was their usage, they stated that, so yeah :nonchalance:
May I take the time too say, it was a nice little debate.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:17 AM
I mean have any members of the first civilization (Juno, Minerva, Jupiter) actually said the devices were used to enslave them, or did the humans in the game think that's what they were doing?

Consider this, I'm going to use another bible reference

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:18 AM
If you're still interested

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:18 AM
As I answered, they said that the usage was to enslave humanity, and is shown through the truth in Assassin's Creed II, where humans are shown put too work, controlled by the POE.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:22 AM
The Bible claims that Adam and Eve Tasted the fruit of knowledge, and gained the capacity for sin ( lying, Jealousy, Distrust, etc.)
And the game claims that they just gained knowledge, and became "aware that they were slaves

What if the FC member in the truth video was not controlling the humans in that metal shop, rather protecting the apple from the hands of Satan, while the humans built up arms for a battle with him and his demons

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:25 AM
Adam and eve realized what they had done and ran to hide, feeling shame for their mistake, when that thing behind them, GOD, came and asked them what they were doing, did eat the fruit, yadda, yadda, and then those people in the garden with them were their children and grandchildren living with them

Nowhere in the bible does it state that Cain and Abel were their first children, nor that they didn't have kids while still in the garden
And remember, Adam lived to 930, imagine how may kids he could have had by then

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:26 AM
That will go against the bases of it, as Adam and Eve had the Apple with them, they were running from the TWCB, because they gained freedom. Awareness, if they were preparing for a battle, would they not understand that they should keep working instead of running away?
And also, all of the ''religion'' books are most likely big fabrications by the Templars, too keep everybody un-aware. Also, it was stated how they created them in their ''own image'' too serve, to be slaves.
EDIT: In the game, it is said Cain and Abel fought each other over a Peice of Eden, and if I am correct, Cain was the founder of the Templars.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:29 AM
What if adam and eve's children and grandchildren had merely "perceived" the angels (First Civilization) to be controlling their free will, when in actuality the were keeping the apples safe, in order to prevent sin from befalling mankind?

Satan however could have killed one of the angels, taken their apple, and tempted Eve into taking it, who gave it to Adam

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:30 AM
That will go against the bases of it, as Adam and Eve had the Apple with them, they were running from the TWCB, because they gained freedom. Awareness, if they were preparing for a battle, would they not understand that they should keep working instead of running away?
And also, all of the ''religion'' books are most likely big fabrications by the Templars, too keep everybody un-aware. Also, it was stated how they created them in their ''own image'' too serve, to be slaves.
EDIT: In the game, it is said Cain and Abel fought each other over a Peice of Eden, and if I am correct, Cain was the founder of the Templars.

They may not have been running to freedom, but rather running to hide from God out of fear and shame for disobeying him, they gained access to these things when they took the apple

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:32 AM
Not quite done but what do you think so far?

And by the way, this is a very engaging conversation, thank you for sharing it with me, I appreciate having my opinions heard

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:34 AM
What if adam and eve's children and grandchildren had merely "perceived" the angels (First Civilization) to be controlling their free will, when in actuality the were keeping the apples safe, in order to prevent sin from befalling mankind?

Satan however could have killed one of the angels, taken their apple, and tempted Eve into taking it, who gave it to Adam

Here is the part you got wrong, First Civilization were not Angels, they were gods. And also, they would have warned Desmond of Satan. Also, if that was the case, after the break in, they would have not continued advancing. And the apocalypse would have been stopped.
EDIT: Yeah, I expected something rather...no offense, but rather stupid. Turns out it is a pretty good debate.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:35 AM
And the in the bible Cain killed Abel out of jealousy, because Abel received God's favor for his sacrifice, maybe god, continued to let Adam and Eve keep the apple they took, and give it to whichever one of their sons showed the most promise

The Apple symbolized "God's favor"

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:36 AM
And the in the bible Cain killed Abel out of jealousy, because Abel received God's favor for his sacrifice, maybe god, continued to let Adam and Eve keep the apple they took, and give it to whichever one of their sons showed the most promise

The Apple symbolized "God's favor"

But, in the game, after the first solar flare, both the First Civ and the humans rebuilt, they used Pieces of Eden to do so, Cain did not kill out of jealousy, but crave for power. Which formed the Templar order.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:37 AM
Here is the part you got wrong, First Civilization were not Angels, they were gods. And also, they would have warned Desmond of Satan. Also, if that was the case, after the break in, they would have not continued advancing. And the apocalypse would have been stopped.
EDIT: Yeah, I expected something rather...no offense, but rather stupid. Turns out it is a pretty good debate.

I don't understand what you mean by "after the break in, they would not have continued advancing"

BTW: I don't get your replies until after I've already posted my next one, so I am kinda one comment ahead of you on this, sorry if it seems like I'm jumping around with my comments

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:40 AM
By that, I meant it would have caused big problems for the advancing of the first civilization, since the break in, they would have had too halt their advancements out of fear, but instead, they kept going on.
EDIT: Also, may I add, this brings me back to the fabrication: You get this info from the Bible, am I correct? bus is it not fabricated by the Templars?

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:45 AM
But, in the game, after the first solar flare, both the First Civ and the humans rebuilt, they used Pieces of Eden to do so, Cain did not kill out of jealousy, but crave for power. Which formed the Templar order.

AHA! here comes my next point, you see in my opinion, after adam and eve took the apple, gained knowledge of sin, and Satan was named the perpetrator behind it all, satan was condemned to be ultimately destroyed by Christ, and Adam and Eve, along with their family, were sentenced to mortality (the punishment for sin), Many of the angels (FC) were banished to the Earth, for failing to keep the apples out of Satan's hands.

Not to mention, that now that they were all doomed to life on Earth, Adam and Eve's family blamed them for taking the Apple, and left them behind, and abandoned God, to fight the angels for failing in their job ultimately blaming them, and the angels blamed man for sinning in the first place, and went to war with the humans, thus beginning the war

It's all a case of who blamed who, but ultimately they all turned from God, and only Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel were left

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:47 AM
AHA! here comes my next point, you see in my opinion, after adam and eve took the apple, gained knowledge of sin, and Satan was named the perpetrator behind it all, satan was condemned to be ultimately destroyed by Christ, and Adam and Eve, along with their family, were sentenced to mortality (the punishment for sin), Many of the angels (FC) were banished to the Earth, for failing to keep the apples out of Satan's hands.

Not to mention, that now that they were all doomed to life on Earth, Adam and Eve's family blamed them for taking the Apple, and left them behind, and abandoned God, to fight the angels for failing in their job ultimately blaming them, and the angels blamed man for sinning in the first place, and went to war with the humans, thus beginning the war

It's all a case of who blamed who, but ultimately they all turned from God, and only Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel were left

God saw the war, and caused the sun to detonate, wiping the sinner from the Earth, the one's who survived "less than 10,000 humans, and far fewer first civilization members" were left. They were spasre because they accepted what happened as God's decision, and continued to worship him

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:49 AM
God saw the war, and caused the sun to detonate, wiping the sinner from the Earth, the one's who survived "less than 10,000 humans, and far fewer first civilization members" were left. They were spasre because they accepted what happened as God's decision, and continued to worship him

Sorry I meant they were SPARED because they did not turn from God, and in the case of the first civilization halting their productions, They did not know that adam and eve were running, it was God that was following them

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:51 AM
AHA! here comes my next point, you see in my opinion, after adam and eve took the apple, gained knowledge of sin, and Satan was named the perpetrator behind it all, satan was condemned to be ultimately destroyed by Christ, and Adam and Eve, along with their family, were sentenced to mortality (the punishment for sin), Many of the angels (FC) were banished to the Earth, for failing to keep the apples out of Satan's hands.

Not to mention, that now that they were all doomed to life on Earth, Adam and Eve's family blamed them for taking the Apple, and left them behind, and abandoned God, to fight the angels for failing in their job ultimately blaming them, and the angels blamed man for sinning in the first place, and went to war with the humans, thus beginning the war

It's all a case of who blamed who, but ultimately they all turned from God, and only Adam, Eve, Cain, and Abel were left

But here is the thing, they all were living on Earth, from the start. They were not on any higher place of existence, all on earth. And, may I also add, more or less we do not know what they were building in the forge. Maybe it was Pieces of Eden? so that could make your idea of them building weapons invalid.
And too top it all of, here is how Adam and Eve resisted the TWCB: Along with another human named Eve, Adam rebelled against his creators, since the two of them were biologically immune to the effects of the Pieces of Eden on their minds, lacking the neurotransmitters implanted into the brain that would make them obey

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:53 AM
By that, I meant it would have caused big problems for the advancing of the first civilization, since the break in, they would have had too halt their advancements out of fear, but instead, they kept going on.
EDIT: Also, may I add, this brings me back to the fabrication: You get this info from the Bible, am I correct? bus is it not fabricated by the Templars?

They weren't breaking in, they were looking for somewhere to hide, and my idea is surrounded by the fact that the game franchise makes a point about not believing everything you read or hear, or what people tell you, well maybe the templars are those people you should not believe just because they tell you recorded history is a lie.

The concept is that everything in history has been misinterpreted by the public, an only the templar know "the truth", but......what if they are also mistaken

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:54 AM
They weren't breaking in, they were looking for somewhere to hide, and my idea is surrounded by the fact that the game franchise makes a point about not believing everything you read or hear, or what people tell you, well maybe the templars are those people you should not believe just because they tell you recorded history is a lie.

The concept is that everything in history has been misinterpreted by the public, an only the templar know "the truth", but......what if they are also mistaken

The idea is not to believe anything you read or hear because of the Templars. The only bearers of the Truth are the Templars and Assassin's.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 08:57 AM
The neuro-transmitters could be symbolic, or just a way that makes it easier for modern humans to understand, maybe they are a, metaphysical manifestation of God's plan for innocence, lack of knowledge of sin

But when Adam and eve took the apple, they gained knowledge of sin an sort of, "overrode" the neuro-transmitters

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 08:59 AM
Also, the seeds that started the war were as following: The First Civilization, small in number but advanced technologically, at some stage found themselves in need of a docile workforce, so as to support their world. Rapidly advancing the genetic evolution of an already existing species, humanity was born. Initially, each and every member of humanity was born with a chemical neuro-transmitter deep inside their brain, which made them susceptible to the illusions and mind controlling powers of the Pieces of Eden.
However, over time, interbreeding between humanity and their "gods" caused some individuals to be born without the neuro-transmitter active, or indeed present at all.

At some point during this time, two humans – named Adam and Eve – escaped from their masters with a Piece of Eden known as the Apple, and thus began a series of events that led to war between the two species.

Alas, I doubt they it is another term for anything else. Because it is specified over and over.

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 09:03 AM
The idea is not to believe anything you read or hear because of the Templars. The only bearers of the Truth are the Templars and Assassin's.

But what if the templars and assassins are wrong too, for every two opinions, there is always a third, maybe they only know what god wanted them to know, so that only true followers of faith would rooted out

And as for the passing of the first civilization DNA through the blood, I want refer to the idea of genetic memory, in which (by the way i think i figured out how it works) the individual learns something in later life and that knowledge is accessed further down the bloodline. Maybe the passing of the DNA was not a physical passing, but rather a mental one through knowledge.

Ergo: TWCB taught the people of Earth how to see through their eyes, and future generations were able to inherit the lessons from their parents and grandparents, but eagle vision :the blue shimmer" was the best they could do.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 09:05 AM
Actually, genetic memory is the idea that our DNA are like ''archives'' containing the memories of our ancestors.
Also, more on the First Civ: Native to Earth and a product of thousands of years of evolution, the origins of the First Civilization are unclear. Minerva simply stated that they "came before," and were responsible for the creation of humanity, forming the species in their own image to be a capable, but docile workforce.
While Minerva noted that they built humanity to survive, it was made known by Juno that they were not intended to be wise, thereby ensuring obedient and resilient cattle to suit their needs.[1][4]

Research by Clay Kaczmarek seemed to suggest that the First Civilization radically altered the genetic make-up of a pre-existing species on the planet to create humanity, fashioning them to be similar to their "gods", and therefore leaving a large gap in terms of transitional species between archaic hominids and modern humans. By 1997, the Templars had taken note of this and had arranged for fake skeletons to be planted in Ethiopia, so as to limit human exposure to the possibility of the existence of the First Civilization.[1]

In order to assure the control of humanity, various technologies were created by the ancient but advanced race, named Pieces of Eden, which tapped into a neuro-transmitter located deep within the human brain. However, there were some humans born without the neuro-transmitter, hypothesized by Clay to be hybrids of the First Civilization and humans, and could subsequently live without being controlled through such means.[1]

''Thousands of years of evolution.'' is a keyword, also Native to Earth, meaning that they were not created.

And the Assassin's and Templars have existed all the way from the start of mankind, meaning they really cannot be wrong.
And the First Civ are gods, meaning there is no one ''god''

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 09:07 AM
Also, the seeds that started the war were as following: The First Civilization, small in number but advanced technologically, at some stage found themselves in need of a docile workforce, so as to support their world. Rapidly advancing the genetic evolution of an already existing species, humanity was born. Initially, each and every member of humanity was born with a chemical neuro-transmitter deep inside their brain, which made them susceptible to the illusions and mind controlling powers of the Pieces of Eden.
However, over time, interbreeding between humanity and their "gods" caused some individuals to be born without the neuro-transmitter active, or indeed present at all.

At some point during this time, two humans – named Adam and Eve – escaped from their masters with a Piece of Eden known as the Apple, and thus began a series of events that led to war between the two species.


Alas, I doubt they it is another term for anything else. Because it is specified over and over.

Okay, going on that idea, not mine here, but maybe the pre-existing species were Adam and Eve's children, and in "creating them in their image" they essentialy "RE-created them", in a design they wanted, (their "image") where they were susceptible to the pieces of eden

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 09:08 AM
Okay, going on that idea, not mine here, but maybe the pre-existing species were Adam and Eve's children, and in "creating them in their image" they essentialy "RE-created them", in a design they wanted, (their "image") where they were susceptible to the pieces of eden

But how will that work, considering Adam and Eve were CREATED by those gods?

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 09:13 AM
I guess you could say the point I'm trying to make here is that in the game, we are instructed not to take anything at face value, we are encouraged to keep an open mind and be willing to interpret things in a different light. I am taking that idea, and applying to the aspect of the game itself, taking information I have found to support my theory and incorporate it.

Even I have learned that in the real world, logic and faith must coexist in order for faith to survive

If you follow on blind faith, then any indication made that does not fit in with it, causes a crisis of faith, and you abandon it, and if you use mere logic, the idea of faith is entirely discouraged" there has to be a balance.
I have taken that idea and applied it to the game series so I can enjoy it through my own opinions, and still keep an open mind

In order to assure the control of humanity, various technologies were created by the ancient but advanced race, named Pieces of Eden, which tapped into a neuro-transmitter located deep within the human brain. However, there were some humans born without the neuro-transmitter, hypothesized by Clay to be hybrids of the First Civilization and humans, and could subsequently live without being controlled through such means.[1]

''Thousands of years of evolution.'' is a keyword, also Native to Earth, meaning that they were not created.

And the Assassin's and Templars have existed all the way from the start of mankind, meaning they really cannot be wrong.
And the First Civ are gods, meaning there is no one ''god''[/QUOTE]

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 09:15 AM
Yeah, we are told not too take anything at face value. And I did that, back then when those games were still released, everybody analyzed, checked everything, and so on.
And I will say, this was a debate I expected too be, honestly, stupid, into a really good one.
See ya around~

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 09:15 AM
Sorry, part of your comment ended up in there

Jayman102593
07-13-2012, 09:16 AM
Yeah, we are told not too take anything at face value. And I did that, back then when those games were still released, everybody analyzed, checked everything, and so on.
And I will say, this was a debate I expected too be, honestly, stupid, into a really good one.
See ya around~

Nice talking to ya pal, later

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-13-2012, 01:40 PM
I am not sure if we did a good thing resurrecting the thread, tho .__.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 02:59 AM
Hey you still there? I found something else I wanted to run by you

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:00 AM
Umm...sure.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:03 AM
At the end of AC Brotherhood, when you're in the temple of Juno, and you're jumping along the beams, you hear her talking.

When you get to the second set of pillars, she says: "After, when the world became undone, we tried to pass it through the blood, tried to join you to us"

AFTER!!

They didn't have kids with humans until AFTER the solar flare, which mean the 'wiki' site, is inconsistent with the games, which means Adam and Eve could not have been the children of the FC.
They had to have gotten their immunity from something else!!
.......?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:05 AM
No, it simply means they started breeding with alot MORE humans now. Not just started.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:06 AM
Any Ideas?

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:06 AM
No, it simply means they started breeding with alot MORE humans now. Not just started.

I HIGHLY doubt that

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:06 AM
I am pretty sure they meant that now, they started breeding alot more now, in a attempt to rebuild the earth. They meant as it is now not a ''rarity'', it is something they are trying to rebuild the earth. Attempting to undo the damage.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:09 AM
I mean, even in the game, Juno puts emphasis on the word "after"

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:10 AM
Yes, because now, it is not something taboo, it is not something of rarity, she puts emphasis on it to show their attempts are rebuilding.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:10 AM
I am pretty sure they meant that now, they started breeding alot more now, in a attempt to rebuild the earth. They meant as it is now not a ''rarity'', it is something they are trying to rebuild the earth. Attempting to undo the damage.

But it is a rarity, William Miles says only 1 in 10,000,000 get high concentrations of First civilization DNA

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:11 AM
Yeah, because very few First Civ remained. So even tho they started breeding more and more with the humans, they had very limited numbers.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:11 AM
My guess is they didn't try until after the solar flare, and when it didn't work, they stopped trying

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:12 AM
I think that kinda be applied with mine, they realized their limited numbers cant do much, so they stopped.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:12 AM
Juno says she "should have left you as you were" implying they were completely human with no FC DNA when they first tried

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:14 AM
Yep, there really were not many humans with FC DNA at first, but then they started producing, but the limited numbers did not exactly help. Very few remained.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:14 AM
If they had their DNA anyway, they would have just crossbred with one another, and Desmond and people like him would have existed anyway, implying they are responsible for the way it is now

TheFrontLine
07-14-2012, 03:14 AM
I agree with Jayman. What Juno said gives no implication that they had mated with humans beforehand.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:16 AM
...They did mated with humans before.
Adam and Eve. And they take a long time to breed together.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:17 AM
If Adam and eve had been born with First Civilization DNA, the the whole point of Those Who Came Before mating with humans would have been a moot point, because the DNA would have survived through their descendents regardless

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:18 AM
The only logical explanation is that they only made a difference by a few people, and 1 in 10,000,000 is really not that high

what is that like 700 people today?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:18 AM
Not really. Adam and Eve were not the only surviving humans, so the First Civ breeded *Not sure if that is a word* with the other humans, but they had so few, that they still could not have many with First Civ DNA.
They made a small difference because there arent many First Civ left.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:20 AM
And that not even all at once, that's probably more like 5 or 6 people on the planet at any given time, and what are the odds those people will ever meet, just seems like it would have been wasted effort

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:22 AM
They were really desperate. They were trying everything, they tried crossbreeding, but only a few came out of that. So it was in a way a ''failed'' effort, but non the less, Desmond is one of them.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:27 AM
Not really. Adam and Eve were not the only surviving humans, so the First Civ breeded *Not sure if that is a word* with the other humans, but they had so few, that they still could not have many with First Civ DNA.
They made a small difference because there arent many First Civ left.

What I'm trying to say is that, for the sake of argument, if adam and eve were the children of TWCB, and they and their descendents survived, the DNA would have been passed on, and then TWCB continued to breed with humans, the number of people with that amount of their DNA still would not have been very high

1 in 10,000,000 people out of 7,000,000,000 people on the planet is only 700, people, and those are not all alive at the same point in time.
maybe some of them get sick and die, maybe some are infertile, maybe some never decide who have kids
the amount of people would continue to decrease if people with high DNA levels did not mate with each other

This all seems like wasted effort, especially since TWCB can see into the future, this would only make sense if their first try was AFTER the flare

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:29 AM
That is why they bred with the humans. Because they saw a second solar flare, and wanted somebody too stop it. That somebody is Desmond.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:29 AM
They would have had to know that their DNA would not survive for very long, so why even try?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:30 AM
That is why they bred with the humans. Because they saw a second solar flare, and wanted somebody too stop it. That somebody is Desmond.

This is why.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:30 AM
That is why they bred with the humans. Because they saw a second solar flare, and wanted somebody too stop it. That somebody is Desmond.

Right, but the solar flare hadn't happened yet when Adam and Eve were in EDEN, and Juno said they didn't try until after

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:32 AM
That is because when they were in war, they were too busy, too distracted to see the first flare coming.
They did do it before, but only with a very few, and it was sort of Taboo, but after the Solar Flare, they openly tried it for the sake of the future.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:32 AM
Unless Juno is lying, or the 'wiki' site is flawed, there is no way Adam and Eve could have been first civilization offspring, they had to have gotten their immunity some other way

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:33 AM
As I said back there, Adam and Eve were the first. It was sorta taboo, but they did it. Adam and Eve were produced, and you know the rest.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:34 AM
Just doesn't make sense to me, I think the designers should have checked their work before the final cut

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:35 AM
Or maybe they'll elaborate on it in AC3, I don't know

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:37 AM
what do you think?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:37 AM
I found it good enough. It makes sense really, it was a sort of Taboo thing, but it was done once, Adam and Eve came out of it, they broke into war, the First Civ did not see the Solar Flare coming due to the distraction, but they saw a second one, so they tried breeding with humans, that in the future, Desmond would arrive.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:38 AM
By the way, is their a 'refresh button' on this, 'cause I can't see your comments util I've added a new one and I don't know how to fix that

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:39 AM
I found it good enough. It makes sense really, it was a sort of Taboo thing, but it was done once, Adam and Eve came out of it, they broke into war, the First Civ did not see the Solar Flare coming due to the distraction, but they saw a second one, so they tried breeding with humans, that in the future, Desmond would arrive.

You think they were just increasing their chances?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:40 AM
Unfortuntely, there really is no refresh button, but it's ok, we can both keep track.
EDIT: Yep, they were increasing their chances.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:41 AM
I think the sites are just flawed, because they're open to anyone willing to contribute, and people put false information in all the time

I think God made Adam and Eve and they freed the others

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:44 AM
Not really. Mods constantly remove the fake stuff, and members aswell. Plus, everything is sourced in there, if you click on the numbers.
I think it is a interpretative subject, so you can really see it as you like.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:45 AM
If you think about it, Minerva also implies that the POE's were not meant to be used as weapons either

In AC2 she says : "Truth turned into myth and legend" God's existence became a myth, cause now people don't believe

"What we built, misunderstood" The POE's were tools of protection and knowledge, now we use them as weapons against on another

but it could go either way

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:46 AM
Truth turned into myth turned into legend- Basically saying the truth behind everything just decayed over time, and religion was made and all of those kind of things.
They were not supposed to be weapons, but humans turned them into weapons. They were just used to control.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:48 AM
......

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:48 AM
Like I said it could go either way, but I choose the latter

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:49 AM
Yeah, you can really view it as you like, but I like too go with my idea.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:50 AM
Thanks for hearing me out

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 03:51 AM
Talk to ya later

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 03:51 AM
No problem, I found this a pretty good debate aswell.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:10 AM
oh hey one last thing, this just came to me

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:11 AM
Which is?

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:18 AM
Adam and Eve were adults when they took the apple

If they were immune to it's effects, it would set in in childhood
and considering humans were under the watch of TWCB, they should have noticed adam and eve were immune, like when they.. i don't know, refused to take a nap

Now I know what you're thinking, maybe kids were raised by the human adults in shifts, but even so, when they became teenagers or even around 10 or 11, it should have become apparent that the apple didn't work on them

Now the whole point of using the neuro-transmitters and toe POE's was to "ensure obedient and resilient cattle to suit their needs." Emphasis on ensure.
If they were kids and didn't listen, they most likely would have killed them before they became old enough to really do anything about it, not teach the kids to do as they say and hope they listen, any parent in the world will tell you it doesn't work that way.
Besides if they did it that way, then the POE's were pointless
Bottom Line: Adam and Eve shouldn't have even been able to live to the age they were in in "The Truth", because the FC would have killed them earlier on to ENSURE that nothing would interfere with their system of control

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:20 AM
I mean they looked to be in their mid 20's to me

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:21 AM
By the way, if you see "....." on the board, i'm just skipping a comment so i can see what you wrote

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:22 AM
..........

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:23 AM
We do not know how humans were born, they may have been born in what we precieve as adults, so this is just pure speculation. Human-First Civ crossbreeding could just result in adults.
And oh, ''leave them as they were'' meant that humans were stupid. Basically, they should have not have given them wisdom.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:24 AM
...........

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:27 AM
Desmond was born with first civilization DNA and he was just like any normal kid, that's pushing it a bit

And leave them as they were did not me leave them stupid, they were never stupid, they were just always under the apple's control so they could never make decisions for themselves,
By mating with humans they were trying to pass on eagle vision and what not, not intelligence

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:29 AM
Remember there are only 700 people out of 7,000,000,000.

By that last comment, that would mean that 6,999,999,900 people in the world are idiots

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:31 AM
Literal Idiots, not everyday idiots :)

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:31 AM
Actually, yes.
While Minerva noted that they built humanity to survive, it was made known by Juno that they were not intended to be wise, thereby ensuring obedient and resilient cattle to suit their needs, from ACII and AC:B.
And, note evolution.
The way they evolved could have changed, really.
Also, it may just have been that Adam and Eve really just...never thought about escaping.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:33 AM
..........

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:36 AM
No they were not intended to be wise, as in the were not intended to have free will, have consciousness, make decisions for themselves, but adam and eve changed that when they took the apple and freed them from it's control

If they weren't smart already how did they manage to engage in a war
Plus evolution was proven a lie when the templars used fake skeletons
Evolution is a cover up for our actual origins

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:37 AM
Not really. The First Civ themselves are a product of thousands of years of evolution.
Which is what I meant, they were made to be basically dumb and just work force.
And the fake skulls were there to cover up the First Civ.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:38 AM
If we were stupid back then, our brains would have been smaller, and we have evolved in the last 3000 years up to Altair's time, we should also look different

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:39 AM
Evolution requires millions of years

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:40 AM
And if First civilization DNA is what determines our intelligence, we should need more of it than our own, but that's not how it works

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:41 AM
Actually, did it ever occur too you that none of them actually did any breeding?
That all of the humans were just ''created'', and Adam and Eve were the first too be made out of breeding?
That could explain the whole children thing.
The First Civ were the product of thousands of years, not really millions.
EDIT: I did say that what I meant by ''dumb'' is that they were made not too think for themselves.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:42 AM
.........

Layytez
07-14-2012, 04:43 AM
I don't think we were stupid per say just that we robbed of free will and knowledge that the First Civ had. We were built to last not to control.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:43 AM
Yep. They were built to survive, just that.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:45 AM
But if adam and eve were the first, and then later TWCB continued to breed with humans, there still would have had to be more of them in order to account for the amount of intelligent people in the world, we can all think for ourselves

And I thought you said it was done regularly, but it was taboo so they just never mentioned to each other when they did it

Layytez
07-14-2012, 04:45 AM
Adam and Eve were the first who realised the power they had obtained from the First Civ. Looking back at the other humans they realise this is not how they should be living therefore a war broke out.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:46 AM
I don't think we were stupid per say just that we robbed of free will and knowledge that the First Civ had. We were built to last not to control.

We WERE built to control, thats what the things in are brains are for!

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:46 AM
It was kinda ''taboo'' pre-Flare, but after it, they did it openly. But their small numbers did not really help.
And Adam and Eve were the first ''intelligent'' human beings, as in able to think for themselves and control.
EDIT: Nope, The First Civ built humans to survive. They had no intentions of them controlling.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:47 AM
And war requires strategy, comprehension of what your doing
and adam and eve were born!
which means they HAD to be kids

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:49 AM
It was kinda ''taboo'' pre-Flare, but after it, they did it openly. But their small numbers did not really help.
And Adam and Eve were the first ''intelligent'' human beings, as in able to think for themselves and control.
EDIT: Nope, The First Civ built humans to survive. They had no intentions of them controlling.

What are you talking about? The neuro transmitters in our brains were put there so we could be controlled by the POE's. We were built to be manipulable and strong

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:49 AM
Not really. They were breeding between First Civ and humans, meaning they could have been born adults.
And oh, Desmond is the product of two humans with First Civ DNA. Humans.
EDIT: Yes. The neuro transmitters were there so they can control humans. They did not want them too be aware.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:49 AM
It was kinda ''taboo'' pre-Flare, but after it, they did it openly. But their small numbers did not really help.
And Adam and Eve were the first ''intelligent'' human beings, as in able to think for themselves and control.
EDIT: Nope, The First Civ built humans to survive. They had no intentions of them controlling.

And you just said adam and eve were the only ones

Layytez
07-14-2012, 04:50 AM
We WERE built to control, thats what the things in are brains are for!

"We built you in our own image, we built you to survive." Of course that what our brains are for but only once the First Civ had been wiped out from existence. This is to allow us to live on after they have died. If they did not control us in the beginning the world in which they were living in would not have been so efficient.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:51 AM
They were the only intelligent *for the lack of a better word* at first, but then humans became free and here we are.
EDIT: They did not expect to be wiped off.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:51 AM
Not really. They were breeding between First Civ and humans, meaning they could have been born adults.
And oh, Desmond is the product of two humans with First Civ DNA. Humans.

That makes no sense, we were built in their image, so our womens birth systems would have to be compatible with theirs, no woman on the planet today could pass a full grown man!

Layytez
07-14-2012, 04:53 AM
That makes no sense, we were built in their image, so our womens birth systems would have to be compatible with theirs, no woman on the planet today could pass a full grown man!

What are you trying to say ?

Layytez
07-14-2012, 04:53 AM
They were the only intelligent *for the lack of a better word* at first, but then humans became free and here we are.
EDIT: They did not expect to be wiped off.

Bu they built us to survive as a precaution.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:53 AM
When the First Civ bred, they did not really produce kids, they produced ''adult'' TWCB.
Maybe our birth systems could do that, if it was a First Civ.
EDIT: They built us to survive as a a Plan B sort of thing.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:54 AM
They were the only intelligent *for the lack of a better word* at first, but then humans became free and here we are.
EDIT: They did not expect to be wiped off.

So you admit we were being controlled
because before you said : "We were built to last not to control."

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:55 AM
When the First Civ bred, they did not really produce kids, they produced ''adult'' TWCB.
Maybe our birth systems could do that, if it was a First Civ.
EDIT: Yep. They built them to survive as a sort of ''Back up''

But Adam was a human no a FC member, and not to mention, TWCB were even bigger than us, you really think a woman is gonna push out someone Jupiter's size

Layytez
07-14-2012, 04:56 AM
So you admit we were being controlled
because before you said : "We were built to last not to control."

I'm the one who said that and yes we were being controlled. If you think about humanity today who is going to do what you say unless u perform some sort of control over them ?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 04:56 AM
Yeah. They did not want us to control, which is why there are the transmitters and the POE.
EDIT: It is possible. And oh, we do not know which side bred, it may have been the Women as the First Civ, or it was the Man as the First Civ.
And I am pretty sure if a human female crossbred with a First Civ male, the result would be a human shaped.

TheFrontLine
07-14-2012, 04:57 AM
Where did the idea of giving birth to adults come from? How is that remotely possibly without mass death of mothers? Unless the mothers were the FC... ?

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:57 AM
Adam and Eve had to have been kids at one point, and TWCB had to have noticed they were immune, and would have killed them to ensure their safety.

Juno even says "Knowledge was locked away" "The one we kept from you, to be SAFE"

Layytez
07-14-2012, 04:58 AM
But Adam was a human no a FC member, and not to mention, TWCB were even bigger than us, you really think a woman is gonna push out someone Jupiter's size

Their technology was advanced. Who says that the same way humans were created Adam and Eve could been created also. If all they required was sample DNA from both then its possible.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:58 AM
Where did the idea of giving birth to adults come from? How is that remotely possibly without mass death of mothers? Unless the mothers were the FC... ?

Like I said they were kids at one point, so they had to have noticed adam and eve were immune when they were little and the apple didn't make them stop crying, or go to sleep

TheFrontLine
07-14-2012, 04:59 AM
Their technology was advanced. Who says that the same way humans were created Adam and Eve could been created also. If all they required was sample DNA from both then its possible.

Are you saying Adam and Eve are not humans?

Layytez
07-14-2012, 04:59 AM
Are you saying Adam and Eve are not humans?

They are not full humans no. They lacked the transmitters normal humans had in order to be controlled.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 04:59 AM
And that idea came from you!

"When the First Civ bred, they did not really produce kids, they produced ''adult'' TWCB.
Maybe our birth systems could do that, if it was a First Civ."

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:00 AM
Yeah. They did not want us to control, which is why there are the transmitters and the POE.
EDIT: It is possible. And oh, we do not know which side bred, it may have been the Women as the First Civ, or it was the Man as the First Civ.
And I am pretty sure if a human female crossbred with a First Civ male, the result would be a human shaped.

Got lost back there.
EDIT: Yeah, we do not know.
And the DNA samples idea.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:00 AM
These were your words

TheFrontLine
07-14-2012, 05:01 AM
And that idea came from you!

"When the First Civ bred, they did not really produce kids, they produced ''adult'' TWCB.
Maybe our birth systems could do that, if it was a First Civ."

Are you referring to me? I'm not HaSoOoN, lol.

Layytez
07-14-2012, 05:01 AM
Or the First Civ simply didn't know they POE resistance would passed onto humans unless they purposely made them like that.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:02 AM
Yeah but how is and adult going to pass out of a little opening, if they were compatible enough to mate with us, their birth systems should have been the same too, and there is no way they could give birth to someone their own size

TheFrontLine
07-14-2012, 05:02 AM
Like I said they were kids at one point, so they had to have noticed adam and eve were immune when they were little and the apple didn't make them stop crying, or go to sleep

They wouldn't kill the product that they intended to make.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:03 AM
Or the First Civ simply didn't know they POE resistance would passed onto humans unless they purposely made them like that.

Very plausible. Also, they may have not necessarily bred like we do. Maybe it was just DNA+DNA.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:03 AM
Are you referring to me? I'm not HaSoOoN, lol.

Oh my bad, but he was the one that said that

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:04 AM
Dna + dna = wtf?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:04 AM
The First Civ's way of breeding may have been different than us. They may have applied it to us, as in they just mix the DNA's, which causes a human.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:04 AM
How does that work?

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:04 AM
DNA+DNA means they had advanced technology. They could have easily used it to mix human DNA with First Civ DNA and there, Adam and Eve.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:05 AM
The First Civ's way of breeding may have been different than us. They may have applied it to us, as in they just mix the DNA's, which causes a human.

But it would have had to be put back in, so it could grow into a person

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:06 AM
DNA+DNA means they had advanced technology. They could have easily used it to mix human DNA with First Civ DNA and there, Adam and Eve.

Oh now your just knit picking ;)

Layytez
07-14-2012, 05:06 AM
Very plausible. Also, they may have not necessarily bred like we do. Maybe it was just DNA+DNA.

Exactly like I just said. We don't know the methods of how they made humans. They were advanced to the point maybe creating adult sized humans was more time efficient because they would be able to work faster than children. I think children only came into play after the war had broke out and humans had their free will. Then actual breeding between humans happened and babies were born...

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:06 AM
But it would have had to be put back in, so it could grow into a person

What?

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:06 AM
Throwing out the old advanced race card

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:06 AM
Exactly like I just said. We don't know the methods of how they made humans. They were advanced to the point maybe creating adult sized humans was more time efficient because they would be able to work faster than children. I think children only came into play after the war had broke out and humans had their free will. Then actual breeding between humans happened and babies were born...

Yeah. There is no way too know how they bred.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:07 AM
What?

I assumed you meant they did it like artificial insemination

TheFrontLine
07-14-2012, 05:07 AM
The way this is going is making it a bit confusing for us to get our ideas across.

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:07 AM
They may have just literally created us without breeding. By mixing DNA using their technology. There is no evidence of how they bred. Breeding could have had happened post-break out.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:08 AM
Yeah. There is no way too know how they bred.

But what about the video in revelations when the baby was in the mother's arms, they obviously had kids back then

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:08 AM
But what about the video in revelations when the baby was in the mother's arms, they obviously had kids back then

And that was before the flare

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:09 AM
But what about the video in revelations when the baby was in the mother's arms, they obviously had kids back then

That was post-break out :nonchalance:

Layytez
07-14-2012, 05:09 AM
The clothing they were wearing didn't look like actual clothes. More like mechanically produced film that they were created in.

TheFrontLine
07-14-2012, 05:09 AM
That was post-break out :nonchalance:

Then what was the following "explosion"?

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:09 AM
.....

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:10 AM
The explosion was the catastrophe.

Layytez
07-14-2012, 05:10 AM
Then what was the following "explosion"?

From the solar flare.

TheFrontLine
07-14-2012, 05:11 AM
From the solar flare.
Yeah, so they had children before the solar flare...

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:11 AM
The solar flare happened after the break out, so there.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:12 AM
.....

They were in a city with statues of the "Gods" in their courtyard, they were worshiping them, and I'm pretty sure that means they were still under their control, remember Juno said
"Most, not all and it does not take many to unwind the world" Meaning not everyone was freed and fought them

The explosion was the solar flare that tipped the balance of the equator and caused the earth to split open

HaSoOoN-MHD
07-14-2012, 05:14 AM
No. It was stated that the solar flare happened while they were at war. The statues did not signify anything.
EDIT: Then this is just pure guessing.

Jayman102593
07-14-2012, 05:14 AM
Those people were still under their control, and they had kids