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View Full Version : Stall Spin syndrome and lack of feel on the game



XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:02 PM
I got a second hand saitek rumbler, and i began some testing ( for my own reasons) to see and try to feel the onset of stall on the following airplanes

me109 e7, f2 g2 g6 g6a/s, and k4
fw190 a4, a5, a8 and a9

my surprise is that on the 109 the cues are very subtle, and it requires conscious attention to "feel it" on the other hand the 190 early series are very docile and you can feel a little "twitch" on the stick that tells you are on the edge, latter series are a little "impetuous" and they almost give you no warning ( this is flying by airspeed indicator) at or below 270 kph ( no flaps, 90 percent power, rad flaps closed)they tumble like an umbalanced laundry machine, I would like to know what are your experiences on this subject...Im considering to move to the FW 190 a4 or a5...

all this test is being performed on the patch version 1.11

here is some text about stall spins as taught on real life ( im using it as a guideline to do the test):

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/stallspin01.jpg

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/stallspin02.jpg

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/stallspin03.jpg

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/stallspin04.jpg


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Message Edited on 09/09/0311:04AM by Loco-S

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:02 PM
I got a second hand saitek rumbler, and i began some testing ( for my own reasons) to see and try to feel the onset of stall on the following airplanes

me109 e7, f2 g2 g6 g6a/s, and k4
fw190 a4, a5, a8 and a9

my surprise is that on the 109 the cues are very subtle, and it requires conscious attention to "feel it" on the other hand the 190 early series are very docile and you can feel a little "twitch" on the stick that tells you are on the edge, latter series are a little "impetuous" and they almost give you no warning ( this is flying by airspeed indicator) at or below 270 kph ( no flaps, 90 percent power, rad flaps closed)they tumble like an umbalanced laundry machine, I would like to know what are your experiences on this subject...Im considering to move to the FW 190 a4 or a5...

all this test is being performed on the patch version 1.11

here is some text about stall spins as taught on real life ( im using it as a guideline to do the test):

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/stallspin01.jpg

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/stallspin02.jpg

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/stallspin03.jpg

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/stallspin04.jpg


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

Message Edited on 09/09/0311:04AM by Loco-S

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:30 PM
bump

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:46 PM
Don't take this the wrong way, because I don't intend to sound like a jerk here but,

What's your point?

Honestly, I don't get it from what you've provided.

Are you saying that stick feel and stall buffet warning vary from aircraft to aircraft, or that under high speed and G the aircraft can stall with little to no warning?

If so, that's essentially correct.

Beyond that, you'll need to be a bit more specific than you have been, because I'm just not following you here.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:49 PM
It's too bad that one of the primary indicators of a stall can never be "simulated" in a game like this- that sensation similar to the floor being removed that always comes during the onset of a stall, right after the initial buffeting. It is unmistakable and is a sure sign that you have stalled out.

As for spins, (even moreso than for stalls) I am not quite sure it is even worth it to "test" in such detail, as the departure depends very much on the airfoil characteristics and the chaotic movement of air around the plane. There is no way to model that level of detail on a PC in real time, so discrepancies will be inevitable.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:54 PM
Yep you are opening a HUGE can of worms. Lets be more specifi for instance last night I was down in the weeds with my Emil chancing down a a recalcitrant IL-2 that was refusing to not turn to tight and I entered an acclerated stall that quickly within a 1/4 of a second degenerated into a complete spin the Emil snapped onto its back in in 3/4 of a rotation was in the trees exploding in flames....what fun! I am interested in how well the Force Feedback sticks can emulate the buffeting or twitching of an insipient stall or buffet..

Any helpers please pitch in!


Happy hunting and check six!

Tony Ascaso, RN

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 06:54 PM
Loco-S wrote:
- I got a second hand saitek rumbler, and i began some
- testing ( for my own reasons) to see and try to feel
- the onset of stall on the following airplanes

- me109 e7, f2 g2 g6 g6a/s, and k4
- fw190 a4, a5, a8 and a9
-
- my surprise is that on the 109 the cues are very
- subtle, and it requires conscious attention to "feel
- it" on the other hand the 190 early series are very
- docile and you can feel a little "twitch" on the
- stick that tells you are on the edge, latter series
- are a little "impetuous" and they almost give you no
- warning ( this is flying by airspeed indicator) at
- or below 270 kph ( no flaps, 90 percent power, rad
- flaps closed)they tumble like an umbalanced laundry
- machine, I would like to know what are your
- experiences on this subject...Im considering to move
- to the FW 190 a4 or a5...

A couple of things...
1) Many high performance propellor aircraft when flown slow (as in the landing pattern) have been lost due to what is called an uncommanded torque roll. It's caused from the abrupt application of high power at very slow airspeeds. The aircraft simply begins a roll that the flying surfaces can't counter due to low airspeed. This has killed a lot of pilots. You don't see this occur in the game much but it was certainly true in real life.
2) I too use a Saitek (mine's an X45 of which I've owned several) and it's a good joystick EXCEPT that after even moderate use, it requires a recalibration. I'd suggest that you recal it before playing IL-2. The reason for this is that if you get into high angle of attack situations (i.e. pulling hard in a turn, turning steeply on approach to landing, etc.), the joystick seems to cause "coupling". Coupling is when one wing stalls and the other doesn't. This results in what can be a violent snap roll, typically to the left due to engine torque effect. This is actually the onset of a spin and unless corrected fairly quickly a full spin can develop. The X45 when not calibrated seems to make the aircraft even more suseptible to this occurring (this is probably true of any joystick but with the X45 it's really an issue). Anyway, I hope this helps. :-)

GR142-Pipper

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:14 PM
I'd say the Force feedback is pretty good at giving you warnings. However they do vary from aircraft to aircraft, and at lower airspeeds there is little or no warning. The reason is because at slower airspeeds the aircraft is capable of being pitched faster due to less pressure on the control surfaces. Which allow you to throw the plane into a high angle of attack and force a stall spin situation.
At higher speeds the aircraft will begin to buffet first as it is forced past the maximum angle of attack.

Also there is a turn indicator, and a ball in every cockpit I've flown in IL2. Key phrase "Step on the ball" if you are on the ball too much elevator will create a stall mush rather than a snap spin. Suddenly throwing in power does complicate the problem depending on the direction of the spin, and the torque of the engine. You can almost torque yourself out of a spin.

The spin recovery procedures above will only get you killed as they pretty much apply to a "textbook" spin. For example the I-16 you have two problems. One torque agravates the spin, two when it spins you lose all rudder authority. In which case you have to aggrivate the spin until your going almost straight down. Then cut power and wait for it to come out. Praying does help lol.

So force feedback works well but it varies from aircraft to aircraft, and it dependant on airspeed. Stay on the ball to avoid spins even if you stall. Then typically you just snap onto your back, and regain control. Funny thought that if you deflected both ailerons slightly up on both wings on every aircraft you would remove the high AOA snap spin problem.

I go by the high AOA snap spin problem as I've never stalled an aircraft except intentionally. It's not something that should ever happen even accidentally. If it does you simply were flying beyond the aircrafts limits, and not paying attention to your airspeed.

Also the later era aircraft were more precisely balance which made them very agile, and easy to throw into high AOA.
Which is why they give little warning as they don't fight the controls like a trainer does. Also a perfectly or near perfectly balanced plane will tumble. An unbalanced plane will not. It's almost backwards to what you think it would be. Thus if it's nose heavy it will be very pitch stable or if it's weight is distributed towards the extreme ends of the aircraft. The same reason a high winged aircraft is roll stable, and a low wing would rather fly upside down. High wings want to level from a turn, and low wings want to continue rolling.
Funny thought though if I could put my hands on the actual aircraft I could cure most of their major problems. Of course they didn't know what I know. Which is what every aeronautical engineer now knows.

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:21 PM
Loco,
After reading the info that you posted, I have definitely decided that I need a new CFI. I'm sure that a PA28 should never see any more than spin entry. You have scared me.

Tsisqua

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:31 PM
like this attitude indicator?:
http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Sperry+Gyro+Horizon.jpg


or this turn and bank indicator?

http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/tnball.jpg



http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 08:33 PM
be afraid...very afraid.....im not talking about a Pa28-140, 160 180 nor 200...Im talking about the game.


tsisqua wrote:
- Loco,
- After reading the info that you posted, I have
- definitely decided that I need a new CFI. I'm sure
- that a PA28 should never see any more than spin
- entry. You have scared me.
-
-
- Tsisqua
-
<img
- src="http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChris
- tie.jpg">
-
- Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!
-
-
-



http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 09:02 PM
Use headset and increase volume.

If sound option is high, -i.e. acceleration on, rest is default- some wind sound gives you warning in 109.

This sound is small compared to original IL-2, so I gave up my speakers and use headset.

About force feed back, I don't know. I'd rather believe my headset vibration. /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-happy.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-09-2003, 11:07 PM
Loco-S wrote:
- be afraid...very afraid.....im not talking about a
- Pa28-140, 160 180 nor 200...Im talking about the
- game.
-
-

Full 360+ spin. ASI in the red. "Sorry, that was a little more than I meant to do" he said. I flew us back home, and flew my first solo that day, in that same airplane. He crashed his 4th airplane this summer. Almost killed a passenger. Yup. I'm going somewhere else.

Tsisqua

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 05:20 AM
check in with an older instructor, usually they are not there for the hours, but for the fun of teaching ( SIC..we yell and scream , but we like it rough...he he)

any guy who crashes more than once for the same reason should be retrained.


what Im trying to know here is if among the population with force feedback there is a specific set of events that makes you "feel" the onset of stall, I was used to fly by the numbers on the game, but now there is a little more "imput" that makes me believe there is a pattern on this

my tests were made on the following order ( all planes):

power on stall 1
Straight and level
90 percent power,
nose up 20 degrees
radiators closed
once there was the mushy feeling ( limp stick)and nose moving to the left I begin to compensate with rudder for torque, to the selected reference
once speed indicator needle passes through the expected stall speed i am usually full right rudder
and i take note on speed at which i getthe shake or twist on stick

some planes gave interesting cues, some did not, the 109 series had an un natural tendency to corkscrew right after the "buffet", while the 190 did had a gentle" mush " stall

power on stall 2

on level flight i put the plane on a 30 degree coordinated turn ( did it twice to left and right) and then apply 20 degrees of pitch up
90 percent power,
nose up 20 degrees
radiators closed
once there was the mushy feeling ( limp stick)and nose moving to the left I begin to compensate with rudder for torque, to the selected reference
once speed indicator needle passes through the expected stall speed i am usually full right rudder
and i take note on speed at which i get the shake or twist on stick

power off stall 3
Straight and level
0 percent power,
flaps 0 degrees
nose up 20 degrees
radiators closed
once there was the mushy feeling ( limp stick)and nose moving to the left I begin to compensate with rudder for torque, to the selected reference
once speed indicator needle passes through the expected stall speed i am usually full right rudder
and i take note on speed at which i getthe shake or twist on stick

some planes gave interesting cues, some did not, the 109 series had an un natural tendency to corkscrew right after the "buffet", while the 190 did had a gentle" mush " stall

power off stall 4
on level flight i put the plane on a 30 degree coordinated turn ( did it twice to left and right) and then apply 20 degrees of pitch up
0 percent power,
nose up 20 degrees
radiators closed
once there was the mushy feeling ( limp stick)and nose moving to the left I begin to compensate with rudder for torque, to the selected reference
once speed indicator needle passes through the expected stall speed i am usually full right rudder
and i take note on speed at which i get the shake or twist on stick


power on stall 5
Straight and level
flaps combat
90 percent power,
nose up 20 degrees
radiators closed
once there was the mushy feeling ( limp stick)and nose moving to the left I begin to compensate with rudder for torque, to the selected reference
once speed indicator needle passes through the expected stall speed i am usually full right rudder
and i take note on speed at which i getthe shake or twist on stick

some planes gave interesting cues, some did not, the 109 series had an un natural tendency to corkscrew right after the "buffet", while the 190 did had a gentle" mush " stall

power on stall 2

on level flight i put the plane on a 30 degree coordinated turn ( did it twice to left and right) and then apply 20 degrees of pitch up
flaps combat
90 percent power,
nose up 20 degrees
radiators closed
once there was the mushy feeling ( limp stick)and nose moving to the left I begin to compensate with rudder for torque, to the selected reference
once speed indicator needle passes through the expected stall speed i am usually full right rudder
and i take note on speed at which i get the shake or twist on stick



etc etc etc on all flap settings and power to 60, 40 and 20 percent, what makes me wonder is that the bf 109 had a reputation of gentle staller and the FW 190 of mad horse behaviour on stall, in the game this seems to be the opposite, any comments?


http://mywebpage.netscape.com/kurbalaganda/Loco-S.gif

[B]Burning Avgas at alarming rates since 1990. [B]
<G>Visit http://www.aopa.org<G>
I love the Me 109 but... "Ich bin ein Würgerwhiner"!! too /i/smilies/16x16_smiley-wink.gif

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 05:54 AM
I have a Saitek Cyborg Force, and yes, I know that I've gotten off-topic (I think I had a good reason). I was wondering how high you have the forces set on the stick? I spend most of my time in the P39, and still love the plane, even though as of late it has become way more forgiving than than I understand the real thing to have been. My forces are set to 50%, and it seems quite enough. As was mentioned before, at slow speeds there is little, or no shake before a stall. At speeds above 300 in a tight turn I definitely use the amount of bufet that I feel on the stick to tell me when I am pulling too hard. And yes, P39 will fall into a spin in spite of what many say. I will experience shaking all the way through a 180 deg turn if I am really pushing it. Through the course of a tight turn, as I just described, starting at 440 kph, I will lose at least 100 kph. The more shake, the more E I lose, so I am doing a bit of a balancing act between how quickly I need to turn, and how much E I am willing to give up. My little vibrating joystick has become the best indicator, and I don't even think about it anymore . . . I just feel it, and do it. As to how this would be in the real world, I wouldn't know for certain, but I am betting that there was alot less wind-bufet to warn a pilot that he was about to cross the line, and alot less time to correct the situation. I know that I am probably not giving you the data that you are after, being a lowly student pilot with a HORRIBLE teacher, but my point is that as cool as FB is, it has a long way to go yet in the realism department. Especially where this is concerned.
Oh Yeah, I forgot to mention . . . I love it anyway.

Tsisqua

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 07:01 AM
Loco-S wrote:

- any guy who crashes more than once for the same
- reason should be retrained.


My CFI has crashed or crashlanded 6 times due to engine failures in the 50 odd years he has been flying.

His most hair raising story being about lining a Piper up to hit precisely in the middle of two trees when he came down in a forest so the wings would come off cleanly and not flip the plane around.

<center> http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0SQDLAtUWiWZ3BKw19!aryp7v3C1h1DuNwpHOOuqhlraGSyMAY KiPEOZAA1OBgsLu*Sa0UQ2my0PiFyvNkJ5K7Clsoy7yNtEvOXY nHDuPNiotpZACY2oJxw/aircraftround.jpg </center>

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 08:38 AM
I don't want to sound rude by i can even predict the stall (most of the time) without force feedback. Kind of instinctive thing. The plane sure give you warnings even without ff. I think there is a pattern for stalling. What i mean, is any planes you fly, once you get used to FB you will know the limit you can put on the joystick, but if you specialize in some planes in particular, this will become so intuitive that you could even know what's the maximum pressure you can pull at a particular speed with your stick. WW2 pilots didn't fly a PC game btw..



__
Sharx (Online; WUAF_Sharx)
<A HREF="http://www.il2skins.com" TARGET=_blank>
http://www.il2skins.com/images/banners/il2skins-468x60.jpg</A>



Message Edited on 09/10/0303:44AM by Sharx66

XyZspineZyX
09-10-2003, 01:19 PM
Sharx66 wrote:
WW2 pilots didn't fly a PC game
- btw..
-
-
-
-
- __



No, but can you imagine what a secret training weapon FB would have been for whomever had it?

http://www.uploadit.org/files/010903-nedChristie.jpg

Tsalagi Asgaya Equa!