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AFJ_Locust
03-21-2004, 02:02 PM
What happened with the p51's? When you do a high speed dive & pull up they explode into a million pieces what is that about???

I thought these ac were champion divers not smart bombs waiting to detonate ?

When will this be fixed ?!?!?!?!

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AFJ_Locust
03-21-2004, 02:02 PM
What happened with the p51's? When you do a high speed dive & pull up they explode into a million pieces what is that about???

I thought these ac were champion divers not smart bombs waiting to detonate ?

When will this be fixed ?!?!?!?!

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http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

CowboyTodd41
03-21-2004, 02:03 PM
All planes have stress levels, you're probably just ripping the plane apart by putting to high of a G load on it.

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chris455
03-21-2004, 02:05 PM
Hi locust.
last I checked (AEP) P47 does also, and P-38.
P-38 blows up ca. 850kph.
Not sure of th Jugs VnE , I think it's over 900 and then it too blows up.

http://members.cox.net/miataman1/P47.jpg

AFJ_Locust
03-21-2004, 02:42 PM
It never did this before AEP

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Chuck_Older
03-21-2004, 02:47 PM
I can't see a problem that needs to be fixed in this, myself. You can't overstress the airframe and expect no consequence

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

KGr.HH-Sunburst
03-21-2004, 02:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I can't see a problem that needs to be fixed in this, myself. You can't overstress the airframe and expect no consequence

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

that is true but just now i was in a dive in a pony and pulled up at about 620/630 and i wasnt pulling that hard and i just blow up
i dont think that is normal cus it doesnt happen with the D9 for all i can tell

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Chuck_Older
03-21-2004, 02:59 PM
Why should the FW-190-D9 and the P-51 share the same stress tolerance?

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

RedDeth
03-21-2004, 03:13 PM
the ki84 does this sometimes pulling out of dives at about 550 one out of 20 times. the mustang should not explode like a bomb pulling out of a dive at 600 which happens ....thats 600kph NOT 600 mph . this is a HUGE game glitch.

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Chuck_Older
03-21-2004, 03:16 PM
At what speed should these planes disintegrate, then?

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

BS87
03-21-2004, 03:23 PM
Before AEP they used to explode around 800kph in a dive... now it seems random between 500-700kph

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Loco-S
03-21-2004, 06:06 PM
If I recall correctly the P40 when it just came out had the same problem, it was addressed in a subsequent patch.

had something to do with the DM.

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Korolov
03-21-2004, 07:09 PM
Issue with the P-40 was with negative Gs. Here, it seems that positive Gs make it go boom.

http://www.mechmodels.com/images/newsig1.jpg

p1ngu666
03-21-2004, 07:26 PM
yep
its not like it shakes or anything just BOOM

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Bearcat99
03-21-2004, 08:08 PM
Thats maionly with the B I think. I havent been able to get the Ds to do it.

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Maple_Tiger
03-21-2004, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I can't see a problem that needs to be fixed in this, myself. You can't overstress the airframe and expect no consequence

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


He is not talking about bringing the plane to complete compresion.

The P-51 varients do explode when you pull out of a high speed dive. I mean before they even start to shake. This just started happing in AEP.

I tride testing the P-47, P-40 and P-38 and they do not explode when you pull up from what i can see.

I sent Oleg an e-mail about this bug.

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WUAF_Badsight
03-21-2004, 09:48 PM
gawd i dunno

lots of planes do this now

need to fly them now & then instead of just your "fav"

Rajvosa
03-22-2004, 01:07 AM
Fascinating, as Spock would say. Perhaps things are correct now, it's just that we're not used to them being this way. I remeber diving P-51 to 1200 km/h @ 6000 m. That is supersonic speed, my friends! This was not correct at all. But if the current state is a bug indeed, then I expect it to be corrected. Just like Me 163 not being able to take-off from the ground.

Regards,

Jasko

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Fennec_P
03-22-2004, 01:50 AM
The Go-229 seems to do this as well.

I dive to 600km/h, pull up, and boom.

KGr.HH-Sunburst
03-22-2004, 02:15 AM
its not only the P-51 i can get the P-47 to explode at about 700kph but i need to use full trim and pull up hard to make it happen
and in the Go-229 i can make it explode in a sharp turn above 600kph
it may be a bug or they included new stress levels

has someone send this to oleg or posted a thread in ORR ?

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FA_Whisky
03-22-2004, 02:18 AM
Mostly happens at cold(snow/ice) maps for me. It also does not seem to be related to any speed. My P51d blew up from 600kmph to 950kmph mostly when pulling the trigger.
If this is correct, all planes in the game should suffer from it witch is not the case. I have never seen a 109K4 or a 109Z blow up like this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I remeber diving P-51 to 1200 km/h @ 6000 m. That is supersonic speed, my friends! This was not correct at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't 1200kmph supersonic at ground level? I always thought that it is mutch higher at 6k alt.

LeLv28_Masi
03-22-2004, 03:16 AM
Do you pull up hardly from dive when this happens. I mean mustang can do some really tight high G pull ups.

Might it be that there is new high G airframe stress added to AEP DM? Who knows...?

As far as I can see P51 and P47 are the best prop divers in FB, nothing catches them.

BfHeFwMe
03-22-2004, 03:18 AM
Mine blew up on a bomb release dive angle around 35 degrees, right about 600 Kph, still steady in the dive, as soon as I hit pickle. No pull out was even started, no buffet, nothing. C model, just kaboom, I thought it was a release bug till reading this, funny thing is the bombs hit right on target so it wasn't them that detonated the plane into a fireball. Put a quick end to high angle bombing. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

AFJ_Locust
03-22-2004, 03:57 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Sunburst-97th:
just now i was in a dive in a pony and pulled up at about 620/630 and i wasnt pulling that hard and i just blow up
i dont think that is normal
------------------------------------------

THATS WHAT IM TALKIN ABOUT !!!

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
03-22-2004, 03:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
At what speed should these planes disintegrate, then?


<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THEY DONT disinigrate they blow up KAPOW !!!

BOOMMMMMMMMMM LIKE A BOMB thats not right !!!

And the ac isint even buffiting or nothing & im not even pulling that hard or fast on the stick its gota be a bug

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Skyghost
03-22-2004, 04:40 AM
After the release of the patch 1.22 I flew almost exclusevly the P51.
The top speed I reached was around 1100 Km/h diving from 8000m high to 3000 m ( I had a p47 on my tail and I can assure you his intentions were not just to have a friendly chat http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-mad.gif )
Anyhow I think blow up at 650Km/h on a dive without even shacking a bit it's not very correct.
I have several books about WWII fighters and in none it's said the 51 had that blow up problem

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ptthome
03-22-2004, 04:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fennec_P:
The Go-229 seems to do this as well.

I dive to 600km/h, pull up, and boom.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good - After 2 days on-line with AEP I'm sick of being bounced by GO fantasy planes. Please add another bug to make them explode on the tarmac - until then I'm hunting them on the ground.

http://perso.club-internet.fr/ptthome/vulogo3.JPG

KGr.HH-Sunburst
03-22-2004, 05:56 AM
ok i did some more testing and it seems like some sort of max stress level bcus you can blow up all planes with high elevator authorithy I.E the D9 wont blow up under 680/IAS with out full elevator trim but if you use trim it will blow up if you do a max pull out
The same goes for the pony but on lower speeds cus the elevator response is higher at greater speeds
so its not only on the pony but on more planes
so far planes that will blow up with trim or without trim
are
P-51 all version
P-47 all version
FW190D9 i didnt test the antons
KI-84 all versions

im afraid its not a bug after some more testing http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

http://www.freewebs.com/fightingpumas/
http://img31.photobucket.com/albums/v94/sunburst/sunburst.jpg

AFJ_Locust
03-22-2004, 05:09 PM
no this is wrong I never herd of ac simply exploding from stress or max_g

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Tully__
03-22-2004, 09:23 PM
If you think it's wrong, record a track and either post it for download in Oleg's Ready Room or email it to Oleg along with your sytem specs. Please be reasonable in your post/email, hysterical demands of "Fix it NOW" are not conducive to receptive programmers http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

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Neww_Guy
03-22-2004, 10:39 PM
Happens to the 109 Z as well

Fennec_P
03-22-2004, 11:17 PM
I think Oleg made it clear that they had no plans to introduce any kind of max load factor until BoB.

Besides, that can't be the case because only some planes exhibit the problem. I can do the 20G pull in the FW-190, and no problem.

l6lst_Elite
03-22-2004, 11:24 PM
Lcuky you becuz I cant.P51's sometimes go boom when I pull the stick back.It is definately and undoubtubly a bug.Never did this b4.Always lose plane parts and it is very sudden boom.But,it only happens to me about 1 out of every 10 times i dive and turn hard back up.Dive over and over, get some odds on it while recording a track Lowcost.Use different trim in ur turn.I have yet to make the P-63 do it...... http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/mockface.gif

AFJ_Locust
03-23-2004, 02:17 AM
no trim involved elite just a normal dive going around 630 no buffiting no trim.....

Just Boom

this gives new meaning to Zoom & boom http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

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Rajvosa
03-23-2004, 02:29 AM
Something is definitiley rotten in the state of AEP! I dived the IAR 80 to 650 km/h and pulled as hard as it goes on the stick, and the plane just exited the dive... no tendencies to go KABOOM! http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/51.gif

Regards,

Jasko

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AFJ_Locust
03-23-2004, 06:04 PM
bump

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http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

NegativeGee
03-23-2004, 06:55 PM
Okay... quick question as I find this fascinating.

I've been trying to get my Ponys to explode in these manuovers, but no luck.... I just keep blacking my pilot out

So, to those of you who can get them to boom:

Which Mustangs?
What altitude?
What speed?
What type of turn?

Plus any other hints you have so I can reproduce this, cheers

"As weaponry, both were good, but in far different ways from each other. In a nutshell, I describe it this way: if the FW 190 was a sabre, the 109 was a florett, or foil, like that used in the precision art of fencing." - Gunther Rall

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AFJ_Locust
03-24-2004, 11:51 AM
Ill do some tests & report back asap

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Snoop_Baron
03-24-2004, 02:51 PM
Post some track guys, I really like the P51 and wouldn't want it to be hurt by a bug. http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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LilHorse
03-24-2004, 03:15 PM
Yeah, blowing up or even disintegrating shouldn't happen at 650kph. That's 410mph, easily within the Pony's or Jug's envelope. This is a bug.

AFJ_Locust
03-24-2004, 03:42 PM
Ok I just did some tests in QMB

here are the results....

P51 (any model)

25% fuel
default ammo
started @ 5000m
dive straight down @ 680kmh TAS throw the combat flaps, when you hit 700/710 TAS PULL BACK ON THE STICK & KAPOW the ac is not buffiting at that speed & the explosion happens way before you blackedout...

720 kilometer/hour = 447.0 mph
720 kilometer/hour = 0.587734 mach

I used to dive it @ 900kmh TAS before AEP =
900 kilometer/hour = 559.0 mph

I have a track but no where to host it ???

can anyone host it ? or tell me where I can with minimal trouble

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

TX-EcoDragon
03-24-2004, 04:08 PM
Speed and Load factor are two different things. . I recal a post stating that Oleg said that at 15Gs the Stang would go boom. . . if this is a designed limit load it should apply to all aircraft, but I wouldnt jump on it as a bug just yet. . . (trim turners be afraid!)

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JSG72
03-24-2004, 04:25 PM
I Find the p51 blows up quite readily with a couple of 108 mine shells in her.At whatever speed. Nice!

FA_Whisky
03-24-2004, 05:52 PM
I found that it blows easier on some maps. On the Berlin map it does not blow at all. You can reach 970kmph there at the bottum of your dive without losing any parts. Might this thing be map-related?

FA_Whisky
03-25-2004, 05:01 AM
bumb

Snoop_Baron
03-25-2004, 09:34 AM
I tried it a last night and it was pretty easy to get the B & C models to blow up but couldn't get the D model to do so. They blew up under circumstances that were not that high in Gs and would not cause other planes to blow up including the D model. When I get some time I'll send tracks to Oleg so they can fix this bug.

s!

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AFJ_Locust
03-26-2004, 05:09 AM
Im not pulling no 15g's

Maybe 8 like I said before

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
03-26-2004, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
TX Im not pulling no 15g's

Maybe 8 like I said before

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Black Sheep
03-26-2004, 06:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Isn't 1200kmph supersonic at ground level? I always thought that it is mutch higher at 6k alt.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Speed of sound drops as you climb due to the thinner air; the actual speed is relative to the density of the material it travels through.

Most commercial airliners up at 35,000 feet are traveling at Mach .78 - .85 despite showing around 300 - 340 knots indicated air speed.

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 10:25 AM
I duplicated the tests that I did in a D model last night, in a B and a C.

I still can't get the B or C to explode during a max G pullout from a 40* dive at 850 kph, which is around 550 mph.

This problem has got to be a bug

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

tttiger
03-26-2004, 12:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tttiger:
Well, at least this thread explains why I blew up pulling out of a dive in a P51D last night. I thought I had taken a very direct hit from an 88mm because the plane totally exploded. Now I know it wasn't ack.

I'm at my office, not at home where I have all my reference materials, but I clearly remember reading somewhere what happened to P-51s when they were overstressed: Typlically, the wings folded up. They didn't explode.

That's what happened to Hub Zemke after he left the 56th FG and went off flying P-51s. He overstressed the Pony in a dive (should have stuck to Jugs http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif). But it didn't explode. He was able to bail out and became a POW.

If St. Oleg wants to simulate overstressing, how about doing it realistically? Damage? Yes. Catastrophic damage? Maybe. This blowing up stuff is BS.

And (sri Tully http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) Fix It Now!

Aloha,

ttt

"I want the one that kills the best with the least amount of risk to me"

-- Chuck Yeager describing "The Best Airplane."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

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AFJ_Locust
03-26-2004, 04:18 PM
P51 (any model)

25% fuel
default ammo
started @ 5000m
dive straight down @ 680kmh TAS throw the combat flaps, when you hit 700/710 TAS PULL BACK ON THE STICK & KAPOW the ac is not buffiting at that speed & the explosion happens way before you blackedout...

720 kilometer/hour = 447.0 mph
720 kilometer/hour = 0.587734 mach


***puting the combat flaps on is crucial to the test

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pinche_bolillo
03-26-2004, 05:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FA_Whisky:
Mostly happens at cold(snow/ice) maps for me. It also does not seem to be related to any speed. My P51d blew up from 600kmph to 950kmph mostly when pulling the trigger.
If this is correct, all planes in the game should suffer from it witch is not the case. I have never seen a 109K4 or a 109Z blow up like this.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I remeber diving P-51 to 1200 km/h @ 6000 m. That is supersonic speed, my friends! This was not correct at all. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't 1200kmph supersonic at ground level? I always thought that it is mutch higher at 6k alt.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

whisky dont confuse my winter map with the box stock aep game. I am running the "all =FA= blow up in a dive cheat"

brimigus
03-26-2004, 06:10 PM
If your flying it with prop pitch at 100% all the time.It will blow every time.Try keeping the revs at 2500 and in the green using prop pitch adjustments and it seems to not want to hand grenade. must be the motor thats blowing up and destroying the plane

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 06:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
P51 (any model)

25% fuel
default ammo
started @ 5000m
dive straight down @ 680kmh TAS throw the combat flaps, when you hit 700/710 TAS PULL BACK ON THE STICK & KAPOW the ac is not buffiting at that speed & the explosion happens way before you blackedout...

720 kilometer/hour = 447.0 mph
720 kilometer/hour = 0.587734 mach


***puting the combat flaps on is crucial to the test

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So to make the P-51 explode I must do exactly that?

Pardon me for saying, but isn't this more of an odd minor annoyance than a problem?

I have read so much about this being a big deal, and now you mean to say it must be done at this speed, and put the flaps down just now and pull back on the stick at this speed here??

I've never flown a P-51 with less than 50% fuel, so I guess that excludes my P-51s from exploding?

I've never tried to dive at high speed with flaps deployed on purpose, so my P-51s haven't exploded?

Why would I want to deploy flaps like that when I want speed? Why am I diving like this unless I want speed?

Unless I perform that recipe for disater that you listed, I can't make it blow up?


AFJ, can you just dive your Mustangs to over 550 mph and then pull up without exploding? or would this still happen if you were to do it the way I have been- aerodynamically 'clean'?

I am flabbergasted to read I must do those things to make the P-51 blow up in mid air http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/blink.gif


I've never tried to dive straight down for any extended period, especially not at only 5K meters. I haven't ever needed to http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif
*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

ZG77_Nagual
03-26-2004, 06:21 PM
Oleg's comments on this (http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=367104392)

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 06:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by brimigus:
If your flying it with prop pitch at 100% all the time.It will blow every time.Try keeping the revs at 2500 and in the green using prop pitch adjustments and it seems to not want to hand grenade. must be the motor thats blowing up and destroying the plane<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Not on my PC, it won't

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 06:54 PM
I just retried my previous experiments, using criteria from various sources to make the Mustang explode. it still didn't. Yes i have AEP and yes it installed correctly with zero problems.


P-51D-20NA. Full real except speedbar "on" (yes that means CEM, too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ). This was in QMB. Started at 5,000 meters. 100% prop pitch, 3100 rpm. 25% fuel. vertical dive. I also trimmed to keep it straight down while picking up speed.

test 1)
5000m- start, begin dive to vertical
1050m- buffeting moderately. 850 kph on speedbar, 550 mph on indicator. Max back pressure on stick. Quick blackout, relax pressure, exit blackout. No explosion
950m- level off. 890 kph on speedbar. Over 550 mph indicated. Buffet continues, no break-up, no explosion


test 2)

5000m- start, begin diving vertical
when 650 kph reached on speedbar, dropped one notch flaps to 'combat'. Continue dive. When 710 kph reached, max back pressure on stick. Quick blackout and recovery, bad buffet, sounds of something breaking, plane rolls slightly to port. Port aileron ripped off.

No explosion


Something is going on, but it is not happening to all players. next I will be asked if I tried it with a B or a C...not yet. I was asked to try it as I just reported in test 2 and I did and here are the results.

Something is up, but it's not happening to all players

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Maple_Tiger
03-26-2004, 06:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Nagual:
http://forums.ubi.com/eve/forums?a=tpc&s=400102&f=63110913&m=367104392<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


True, and he did say that the P-51 had a 15g max limit. I do beleave black out occers way before 15g's http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thus there is a bug and Oleg just won't admit it.

But then i could be wronge. I don't know lol. I just don't think it's possible to even pull 10gs without blacking out.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9158822c9eda67f1dd0b724a5f846229/fb18d0ec.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

brimigus
03-26-2004, 06:56 PM
Could be a bug then.I've personaly have had no more explosions with the p51D flying it using more prop pitch adjustments,maybe just a coiencedence.I know the german planes use an automatic prop setting and I found that chasing them in the dive seemed to allways spell disaster.Just a poll,how many acutally use adjusting settings,I know it wasnt till I changed my CH rudder peddles to act as throttle and prop pitch and changed my thrustmaster firestorm game pads right analog stick to act as rudder I was even able to make the precision adjustment needed to fly with prop pitch.

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 07:02 PM
Ah-

http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The axis planes tend to have a different prop pitch system from the one found on a German plane


You can fly a P-51 at 100% pitch all day and not over-rev

The Allied prop management is more like a governor

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

Maple_Tiger
03-26-2004, 07:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
I just retried my previous experiments, using criteria from various sources to make the Mustang explode. it still didn't. Yes i have AEP and yes it installed correctly with zero problems.


P-51D-20NA. Full real except speedbar "on" (yes that means CEM, too http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-wink.gif ). This was in QMB. Started at 5,000 meters. 100% prop pitch, 3100 rpm. 25% fuel. vertical dive. I also trimmed to keep it straight down while picking up speed.

test 1)
5000m- start, begin dive to vertical
1050m- buffeting moderately. 850 kph on speedbar, 550 mph on indicator. Max back pressure on stick. Quick blackout, relax pressure, exit blackout. No explosion
950m- level off. 890 kph on speedbar. Over 550 mph indicated. Buffet continues, no break-up, no explosion


test 2)

5000m- start, begin diving vertical
when 650 kph reached on speedbar, dropped one notch flaps to 'combat'. Continue dive. When 710 kph reached, max back pressure on stick. Quick blackout and recovery, bad buffet, sounds of something breaking, plane rolls slightly to port. Port aileron ripped off.

No explosion


Something is going on, but it is _not_ happening to all players. next I will be asked if I tried it with a B or a C...not yet. I was asked to try it as I just reported in test 2 and I did and here are the results.

Something is up, but it's not happening to all players

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Umm, diving at high speeds is no problum. It's pulling out of a high speed dive that can be fatal.

But if you can't get the P-51 to blow up then thats great, you have nothing to worry about.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9158822c9eda67f1dd0b724a5f846229/fb18d0ec.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 07:17 PM
maple-

did you read the part about "max back pressure on stick" in both of those tests?

I pulled out at 850kph and 550 mph indicated, with max back pressure on the stick. That should be the highest stress on the airframe.

I understand I don't have a problem. I'm not being better than anyone else, I'm only trying to help by posting info about how I can do these things, somehow, without a problem. Hopefully someone like Oleg will read about it, or it will be brought to his attention that something is affecting only some players and not others, or other players who are tearing out their hair because of this might read it and feel there is some hope to resolving the issue.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

ZG77_Nagual
03-26-2004, 07:27 PM
Please note if you are flying with CEM or not - engine revs may be a factor.

DaBallz
03-26-2004, 07:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ZG77_Nagual:
Please note if you are flying with CEM or not - engine revs may be a factor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

P-51 blows up when you fire the guns at 800kph in a dive.

da...

Chuck_Older
03-26-2004, 07:35 PM
http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Nagual:

if you re-read my post above, it states:

~P-51D-20NA. Full real except speedbar "on" (yes that means CEM, too ). This was in QMB. Started at 5,000 meters. 100% prop pitch, 3100 rpm. 25% fuel. vertical dive. I also trimmed to keep it straight down while picking up speed.~

Yes, CEM was enabled. All difficulty "on" except for speedbar, so I could read KPH. My tach showed 3100 rpm, and I used 100% prop pitch.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

AFJ_Locust
03-27-2004, 12:29 AM
Chuck Someone asked how to make it explode. I reproduced the explosions by replicating my attack dive

Ok I fly very high normaly right so I dive from on high so Im diving from 4000m or so or Higher

I Use the combat flaps @ the last min so I dont nail the deck what good are combat flaps if you cant deploy them ?

No other ac does this except the US ac, p47 can do it too but its real hard to make it happen p51 does it much easier....

Maybe its a fluke that I have this bug & you dont but the fact is that it is happaning & it shouldnt. (and im not here lying lol)

Do what I said & they will blow every time @ least mine do. I can make tracks if u wana see it but I have no where to host them so u can dl them.

right now im getting the fealing you dont wana see it or make it happen if you did you would replicate what I said in the QMB

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
03-27-2004, 12:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
maple-

did you read the part about "max back pressure on stick" in both of those tests?

I pulled out at 850kph and 550 mph indicated, with max back pressure on the stick. That should be the highest stress on the airframe.

I understand I don't have a problem. I'm not being better than anyone else, I'm only trying to help by posting info about how I can do these things, somehow, without a problem. Hopefully someone like Oleg will read about it, or it will be brought to his attention that something is affecting only some players and not others, or other players who are tearing out their hair because of this might read it and feel there is some hope to resolving the issue.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dive @ 90 degres to 700kmh TRUE AIR SPEED (the red indicator in bottom left hand corner) not IAS

then Deploy the combat flaps & pull full stick it will blow up man.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Tully__
03-27-2004, 01:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
maple-

did you read the part about "max back pressure on stick" in both of those tests?

I pulled out at 850kph and 550 mph indicated, with max back pressure on the stick. That should be the highest stress on the airframe.

I understand I don't have a problem. I'm not being better than anyone else, I'm only trying to help by posting info about how I can do these things, somehow, without a problem. Hopefully someone like Oleg will read about it, or it will be brought to his attention that something is affecting only some players and not others, or other players who are tearing out their hair because of this might read it and feel there is some hope to resolving the issue.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dive @ 90 degres to 700kmh TRUE AIR SPEED (the red indicator in bottom left hand corner) not IAS

then Deploy the combat flaps & pull full stick it will blow up man.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The red indicator in the bottom left cornere is IAS in km/h, not TAS. For TAS you have to coose no-cockpit view and use the arcade style instruments.

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Tully

Tully__
03-27-2004, 01:30 AM
The problem with the P-38 roll rate appears to have been restricted to certain hardware configurations. This may be the same. To assist with analysis, POST TRACKS & SYSTEM SPECS. If you're not going to do that, there's not much point posting at all. I got AEP yesterday, I'm off to do some tests.

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Salut
Tully

Tully__
03-27-2004, 01:45 AM
OK, I can duplicate it, but only by turning blackouts/redouts off and being totally hamfisted with the joystick (ie. snapping it to full travel with full noseup trim applied). If I ease into the pullout, no explosion. If I have blackouts/redouts on, I black out b4 enough stress is applied to the airframe for an explosion.

=================================================


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IL2 Forums Moderator
Forum Terms of Use (http://www.ubi.com/US/Info/TermsOfUse.htm)

Salut
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Teufel_Eldritch
03-27-2004, 01:45 AM
I have only exploded twice. Once I was banking right pretty hard & fast, the other I was climbing normally. The second time was funny because as my plane exploded a EA was nearby & got caught within the blast radius. =)

P-51 20NA
Full Switch

AMD Athlon XP 2600+
Biostar M7 VIK
1 gig ram
Radeon 9600 Pro
SB Live!
Win98SE

YANKEE ROSE
-----------
"For a world of happiness & equality is but a fantasy driven by men who envy the ruling class."

FA_Whisky
03-27-2004, 04:41 AM
Ok, here it goes again. I found that it is map related. I got most explosion on a online &lt;AFJ&gt; winter map. Whn i fly the Berlin map i get no explosions at all(P51d also dives to 970 and pulls up without losing any parts)

Maple_Tiger
03-27-2004, 06:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Chuck_Older:
maple-

did you read the part about "max back pressure on stick" in both of those tests?

I pulled out at 850kph and 550 mph indicated, with max back pressure on the stick. That should be the highest stress on the airframe.

I understand I don't have a problem. I'm not being better than anyone else, I'm only trying to help by posting info about how I can do these things, somehow, without a problem. Hopefully someone like Oleg will read about it, or it will be brought to his attention that something is affecting only some players and not others, or other players who are tearing out their hair because of this might read it and feel there is some hope to resolving the issue.

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sorry about that. I was reading too fast and missed or forgot half of what i read lol.

I was thinking about something. We don't all have the same joystick or stick setting. I wonder if this may play a small part.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9158822c9eda67f1dd0b724a5f846229/fb18d0ec.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.

Chuck_Older
03-27-2004, 08:57 AM
AFJ-

I have absolutely no idea why you would say something like, 'either I don't want to see it or I don't want to make it happen'

I am going to assume you're having a bad day or just plain misunderstood me. If you read what I posted, you will see I am trying tell the community exactly what I have done to reproduce this issue. It is NOT an attempt to belittle you. If I wanted to do that, I would begin to, right now. I would use funny words and you would be insulted.

I gave detailed info on what I did and how I did it. It's not an attempt to prove you wrong. I don't want a track from you. You see, I understand that there is a problem. I have no doubt that your P-51s explode. I listed what I did and how I did it for two reasons.

One, so that folks like you could replicate my tests. Have you done that? Give it a try.
Two, so folks like you could say, "Oh, try this map, or this height" or whatever, because they could see what I had done.

I listed my speedbar speed and my indicated speed in miles per hour so you could have a basis for comparison to true air speed. If you think about that, and what I have posted before, you might see that I am going very close to the speed in which the P-51 breaks up, rather than explodes. Are your P-51s breaking up? From what I read, I recall that for you they don't, also that they don't buffet. Mine do both. So there is a problem somewhere in FB. I am trying to work with you and with others to find out what's going on.

What is so hard to understand? I am trying to help. If you want me to stop trying, say the word. It is not worth my while to attempt to find a solution or bring this to enough people's attention to get to a way to address this if all I'm gonna get in return are things like "you aren't really trying to do it". I can't find a problem with my P-51s, so if I go on my little way, I still won't have a problem and I will still have my sim working correctly as far as I can see.

I'm one of those stupid idiots who actually like to help others enjoy the game when I can http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/35.gif if all I wanted to do was prove you wrong, I wouldn't keep wasting my time doing more tests and taking notes on my flights for a flippin game. I already have a job, so being a virtual test pilot isn't paying me much http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/images/smiley/16x16_smiley-indifferent.gif


Can you try to take a log of your explosion flights so I can read what you have done, step by step?

*****************************
Wave bub-bub-bub-bye to the boss, it's your profit, it's his loss~ Clash

robban75
03-27-2004, 09:26 AM
I've just conducted several high speed pull up attempts with the P-51. Speed was 700km/h IAS, with combat flaps. My first attempt was with a P-51B, and indeed, it blew up! It appeared that the right wing broke of just before the explosion. I made several more tests with the P-51D, but it wouldn't blow up.

http://members.chello.se/unni/D-9.JPG

When it comes to aircombat, I'd rather be lucky than good any day!

AFJ_Locust
03-28-2004, 10:32 PM
I amde tracks tully I have no place to host them tho...

After further & extensive flight of the stang I can dive very fast now just cant/dont deploy Combat Flaps then its not a problem realy.

I did the same manuvers in many other ac & they do not do it.

Is there somewhere I can send the tracks?

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
03-28-2004, 10:36 PM
Sorry Chuck I must have misunderstood you.

I wasent trying to offend you.

I do realise your trying to help.

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
03-28-2004, 10:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
I made tracks tully I have no place to host them tho...

After further & extensive flight of the stang I can dive very fast now just cant/dont deploy Combat Flaps then its not a problem realy.

I did the same manuvers in many other ac & they do not do it.

Is there somewhere I can send the tracks?

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

AFJ_Locust
03-28-2004, 10:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
Sorry Chuck I must have misunderstood you.

I wasent trying to offend you.

I do realise your trying to help.

I use the speed bar Indicator or the cockpit internal gauge (I was under the impression the Yellow Dial was IAS & The red is TAS ? yes or no ? And that the Cockpit speed was inline with the speedbar speed ?

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/

Snoop_Baron
03-28-2004, 11:51 PM
Well it's Sunday/Monday morning and I've made the track files. I've uploaded them to my website here:

www.snoopbaron.com/P51ExplodeBug.zip (http://www.snoopbaron.com/P51ExplodeBug.zip)

Here are my notes from the read me file:


Track files demonstrating a bug that causes all P51 models to explode when pulled out of a dive with flaps on and 25% fuel when the plane starts to shake.

Each explode track first does the dive with out the flaps and the plane does not explode. I apply full back preasure on each dive. I'm not using any special trimp "cheats" just pull the stick all the way back. Then I do the same dive but with flaps and the P51 explodes.

When I did the same tests with 100% fuel the P51 would not blow up with or without flaps. This probably explains why some testers could not get the P51 to blow up as it only blew up when I took 25% fuel.

I think there might be other ways to get it to blow up but this was any easy way to repeate it each time.

As a counter example I took the FW190D9 1944 (what I call my German P51 http://ubbxforums.ubi.com/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) and did the same tests with 25% fuel the plane did not blow up.

Thanks,
Snoop

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

KaRaYa-X
03-29-2004, 09:48 AM
" The puzzling thing about Mustang airframe failure was that it could not be pinpointed to any one area and was sometimes encountered in brand-new aircraft that had not undergone any known flight strain. Engines tore loose from fuselages, wings were shed, and empennages crumpled "

-Roger Freeman, Mustang at war

"Most serious of all was structural failure. Occasionally the wings came off Mustangs in a high-speed dive. There were two main causes for this. At very high speeds, the large doors of the ammunition bays began to bulge outwards. This distorted the wing to the stage where stresses imposed were too great, and it parted company with the fuselage. The second cause was a tendency for the undercarriage to extend in flight, causing abnormal loads on the wing"

-Mike Spick, Great Aircraft of WW2

"One wing was lost directly over the airfield at Madna, Italy in the fall of 1944. The airplane and pilot went straight into the ground not far from the control tower. One other loss occurred there during an afternoon 'rat race.' Coincidentally we were discussing this wing loss with Johnny Typer, the civilian representative from NAA at the time. He was adamant that no-one could pull the wings off a P-51. No sooner had he made that remark than I heard behind me the dull thumps of two wings separating. He asked 'What's that?' and I answered that it had happened again. He asked how I knew, to which I replied, 'Once you've heard that sound, you'll never forget it." We watched as the litter and tumbling wings fell slowly to the ground, long after the fuselage and pilot had crashed - an unforgettable sight and feeling"

-Lt Col William Coloney 52 FG


'The mustang (p51) This was the best American fighter because of its long range,climb and dive characteristics, fire power and maneuverability.It was very vulnerbale to cannon fire.It would break up during very violent dives and maneuvers.'


"A Mustang III Ser No KH 505 was allocated to the RAE for high speed research, and this showed up some unpleasant compressibility effects, and indeed the aircraft was eventually lost in failing to recover fro a high mach number dive, killing the Canadian pilot, S/Ldr. E.B.Gale.
In such dives compressibility effects set in at M=0.71 with a slight vibration of the aircraft and buffeting of the controls, accompanied by a slight nose down pitching moment. These symptoms increased in intensity up to M=0.75 which was the limit imposed for service use. Above M=0.75 a porposing motion started and increased in intensity together with the other effects up to M=0.8, when nose down pitch became so strong that it required a two handed pull force for recovery."

-Wings of the Weird and Wonderful Vol 2 by Eric Brown


"Before the next flight a Machmeter was fitted to the aircraft, and as instructed I climbed to 35000 ft, carried out a 2min level run at full power and trimed the aircraft before pushing over into a 30 degree dive. At Mach=0.72 the aircraft began to buffet slightly and pitch nose down, requiring a strong pull force to maintain the dive angle. At Mach=0.73 the buffeting increased severly and the nose down pitch was so strong that it needed a full-blooded two-handed pull to keep the dive angle constant. I had to hang on grimly in this situation, unable to throttle back until Mach number decreased as altitude was lost. The pull out was not effected until 8000ft. Analysis showed that a dive to Mach=0.74 would almost certainly be a graveyard dive".

-Testing for Combat by Eric Brown.
This relates to a P47D seconded to the RAE Boscombe Down, from the 8th Air Force.



@Locust:
Did you notice that other planes explode as well (He162, Go229, ...) You didn't? That does not surprise me!
Of course the P51 and all the others shouldn't EXPLODE... they should loose their wings or whatever gets overstressed...

Snoop_Baron
03-29-2004, 10:04 AM
Wings and other parts do snap off when you go to fast. This explosion thing is a bug that was introduced in AEP. It only occurs in this case with 25% fuel and flaps but not with 100% fuel and flaps that doesn't sound like intentional behaviour to me.

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg

Tully__
03-30-2004, 03:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AFJ_Locust:
I amde tracks tully I have no place to host them tho...

After further & extensive flight of the stang I can dive very fast now just cant/dont deploy Combat Flaps then its not a problem realy.

I did the same manuvers in many other ac & they do not do it.

Is there somewhere I can send the tracks?

http://img20.photobucket.com/albums/v61/AFJ_Locust/Loco_mad_sig2_small.jpg

http://alloutwar.com/IL2FS/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A quick poke around the "official" bug threads in Olegs Ready Room should turn up the beta and bug test report email address for 1C:Maddox. Send 'em there, along with system specs, conf.ini and the difficulty settings you were using when you made the tracks.

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Salut
Tully

Maple_Tiger
03-30-2004, 04:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snoop_Baron:
Wings and other parts do snap off when you go to fast. This explosion thing is a bug that was introduced in AEP. It only occurs in this case with 25% fuel and flaps but not with 100% fuel and flaps that doesn't sound like intentional behaviour to me.

:FI:Snoop Baron
http://www.endlager.net/fis/pix/banners/fis_banner_01.jpg <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't even have to use combat flaps. I dive to about 800kmh IAS just (before) the plane starts to shake a bit and pull up.. Boom. No black out and no shaking.

Snoop.. try doing thoughs tests at differant altitudes. Remember the air is thicker at low altitude and thinner at higher altitude.

If i dive from 7500m, reach about 760kmh IAS and pull up at about 5000m then i notice i can't get the P-51 the explode. I think the lower you go the easier it is the make the P-51 explode.

I can't see everone having this problom because we all have differant joysticks with differant settings.

Capt. 361stMapleTiger.
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid79/p9158822c9eda67f1dd0b724a5f846229/fb18d0ec.jpg
Proud member of the FBAA and Nutty Philosohpy Club.