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Poodle_of_Doom
04-09-2012, 06:52 PM
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/technology-blog/know-hack-video-game-console-u-navy-wants-163419621.html

Seems to me that companies like Sony, and Microsoft, and Nitendo if it applies to them, should be suing the government right about now for breaking computer laws, and opening the door to many people who may gain unauthorized access to their technologies, and services without proper payment. What do you folks make of all of this?

SixKeys
04-09-2012, 08:33 PM
"They also want to be able to glean data from a used game console and obtain useful information about the prior owner's communications with other gamers."

WTH? This sounds like a violation of civil rights. If you sell a used console and some guy in the navy happens to buy it, the government should have no business prying into your life.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-09-2012, 08:39 PM
I completely agree. It not only has implications in the buisness sector, but completely violates your basic civil rights. This is why I "thouroughly" wipe my computers, and run magnets over the hard drives, memory chips, cpu's, and all other computer components before donating, or discarding them. The things people, led alone the government, will do is completely outrageous.

Grazel69
04-09-2012, 08:49 PM
WTF? who plans terrorrist attacks over PSN or Xbox Live
yeah that's happening

LightRey
04-09-2012, 09:21 PM
WTF? who plans terrorrist attacks over PSN or Xbox Live
yeah that's happening
Actually, it is. It's apparently a very easy way to have untraceable private conversations and it's actually being used by terrorist organizations.

rileypoole1234
04-09-2012, 09:27 PM
Actually, it is. It's apparently a very easy way to have untraceable private conversations and it's actually being used by terrorist organizations.

When you think about it, it really makes perfect sense. There really aren't any records or anything of the conversations. Also, if you buy something with a PSN card or MS points they can't trace who bought the card.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-09-2012, 09:52 PM
I know it makes perfect sense to monitor these conversations. However, I'm skeptical of the end result. Let's remember that a conversation would between any two people here could be monitored, recorded, and used for whatever purpose without their consent, regardless of content, and without warrant. They're just looking to spy on you, and maintain a watchful eye on you without just cause. I could understand if there were supporting evidence and a warrant, or if say Playstation/Sony, noticed some content that seemed to suggest illegal activity, and submitted said content to the government. But what is being suggested here is covert, and done without cause or warrant. It violates basic human civil rights, is an invasion of privacy, and has a whole slew of things wrong with it.

One thing I happened to think about while typing that up was some of the rights of the various companies this affects as well. Now I don't know about many of you, but I always read the T&C, and User Agreements, of all sites and services I participate in, on, or interact with. I know that many contain a clause states that user submitted content becomes registered under the copy rights of their principal owners. That said, I imagine anything you do, and submit, including conversations held, automatically get handed over to the company whose services you are making use of. Technicaly, this interfers with buisness practices, and could be considered an illegal seizure.

LightRey
04-09-2012, 10:05 PM
I know it makes perfect sense to monitor these conversations. However, I'm skeptical of the end result. Let's remember that a conversation would between any two people here could be monitored, recorded, and used for whatever purpose without their consent, regardless of content, and without warrant. They're just looking to spy on you, and maintain a watchful eye on you without just cause. I could understand if there were supporting evidence and a warrant, or if say Playstation/Sony, noticed some content that seemed to suggest illegal activity, and submitted said content to the government. But what is being suggested here is covert, and done without cause or warrant. It violates basic human civil rights, is an invasion of privacy, and has a whole slew of things wrong with it.

One thing I happened to think about while typing that up was some of the rights of the various companies this affects as well. Now I don't know about many of you, but I always read the T&C, and User Agreements, of all sites and services I participate in, on, or interact with. I know that many contain a clause states that user submitted content becomes registered under the copy rights of their principal owners. That said, I imagine anything you do, and submit, including conversations held, automatically get handed over to the company whose services you are making use of. Technicaly, this interfers with buisness practices, and could be considered an illegal seizure.
I agree. This is way over the line. Besides, terrorists are always going to find new ways to communicate with each other without being monitored.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 01:00 AM
I agree. This is way over the line. Besides, terrorists are always going to find new ways to communicate with each other without being monitored.

Might as well monitor, or just out right ban camp fires now....


Thought this may be of some interest to some of you folks... I would suggest that those of you who find the topic of discussion alarming tune in as in may be of interest:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2012/04/11

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-10-2012, 05:04 AM
Actually, it is. It's apparently a very easy way to have untraceable private conversations and it's actually being used by terrorist organizations.

Exactly...and the act isn't to make all consoles like this, it's to make a couple and then get them into terrorists hands somehow. I see nothing wrong with this, if you're not a terrorists or planning to do anything illegal, then you shouldn't even be concerned with this.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 05:16 AM
Exactly...and the act isn't to make all consoles like this, it's to make a couple and then get them into terrorists hands somehow. I see nothing wrong with this, if you're not a terrorists or planning to do anything illegal, then you shouldn't even be concerned with this.

I take it you didn't read the article? Because, they're hiring/paying crackers and hackers to break the software coding so that they can munipulate it so that they can observe networking, and listen into and record conversations in real time. Trust me when I say, this is in no way good for you or I. Think about what happend here a few months ago, when the PSN got hacked, except all the time, and the Governments doing it. And not only that, but once the Government gets their hands on it, everyone will be doing it, and then nothing will be safe; not even your private data, which will be sold to the highest bidder. If that isn't the least bit concerning to you, perhaps identity theft should; or even credit fraud, illegal monitoring, illegal seizure of personaly information, and the like for that matter. Believe me when I say that this is an abhorent breach of your civil liberties. To believe that you actually need a warrant for a wire tap, but not for this kind of observation. It's absolutely abhorent; and a complete travesty that anyone should feel comfortable with this kind of behavior taking place.

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-10-2012, 05:19 AM
I take it you didn't read the article? Because, they're hiring/paying crackers and hackers to break the software coding so that they can munipulate it so that they can observe networking, and listen into and record conversations in real time. Trust me when I say, this is in no way good for you or I. Think about what happend here a few months ago, when the PSN got hacked, except all the time, and the Governments doing it. And not only that, but once the Government gets their hands on it, everyone will be doing it, and then nothing will be safe; not even your private data, which will be sold to the highest bidder. If that isn't the least bit concerning to you, perhaps identity theft should, credit fraud, illegal monitoring, illegal seizure of personaly information, and the like should be. Believe me when I say that this is an abhorent breach of your civil liberties. To believe that you actually need a warrant for a wire tap, but not for this kind of observation. It's absolutely abhorent; and a complete travesty that anyone should feel comfortable with this kind of behavior taking place.

I work for the government...

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 05:28 AM
You have to understand that I mean no disrespect to you, or your position. However, you also have to understand that, at least where I live, we are entitled to proper, just, and warranted search and seizure, including that which may be of a digital/telecommunications type of data. As I said in the previous post, one would need a warrant for a wire tap, I don't see why one wouldn't be needed here. I'm happy to hear your take on the matter.

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-10-2012, 05:44 AM
In that sense, we would have to know who the terrorists are...which we clearly don't know who is a terrorists, unless they show themselves in a video or if they directly assault us. We do know that they are in the United States hiding amongst us, planning, and...of course, playing video games (just cause they are terrorists, it doesn't mean they aren't into video games). We aren't very interested in normal Americans conversations, we don't care about what you're talking about, we only care about the security of our country. We are here to protect the people, that is our job, our mission, our main reason for serving. We as the United States military, are here to protect the U.S. People seem to not have a clear understanding on how our conversation trackers work, people seem to think that we sit and listen to EVERY single conversation we track, that's not the way it works. Secondly, we have EXTREME security when it comes to digital/telecommunication records and I assure you, we can not be hacked.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 06:18 AM
In that sense, we would have to know who the terrorists are...which we clearly don't know who is a terrorists, unless they show themselves in a video or if they directly assault us. We do know that they are in the United States hiding amongst us, planning, and...of course, playing video games (just cause they are terrorists, it doesn't mean they aren't into video games). We aren't very interested in normal Americans conversations, we don't care about what you're talking about, we only care about the security of our country. We are here to protect the people, that is our job, our mission, our main reason for serving. We as the United States military, are here to protect the U.S. People seem to not have a clear understanding on how our conversation trackers work, people seem to think that we sit and listen to EVERY single conversation we track, that's not the way it works. Secondly, we have EXTREME security when it comes to digital/telecommunication records and I assure you, we can not be hacked.

Well, in a sense you do know who the terrorists are. And you can get a rough idea without listening in on me, or my neighbor. Truth of the matter is, you just monitor chatter from other countries. When you find something suspicious from another country that gets flagged for whatever reason, you follow it to it's source, and to its destination. Then you continue monitoring all communications from a similar origin, until you can narrow similar chatter down to a specific location, be it an IP address, or physical address, or the like. When that's all said and done, you can hone in on those working against us here in the mother land, without having to "passively" observe the rest of us (I say passively for reasons I'll get into later).

That said, I don't honestly believe, nor do I suspect that anyone else believes terrorists are just "playing video games". They're using this type of telecommunications to hide their communications. That is it. They are hiding in plain sight, because they know that it isn't monitored, or at least not as heavily as other means of communications. That said, I do believe they play somewhat, to give the illusion of normal gaming activity, thus helping them to hide in plain sight.

As I mentioned before, this type of monitoring is very threatening to civil rights. What I would imagine would be the best form of observation for such a vast network of systems would be general monitoring through passive observation. I don't know if you have ever seen that show 'Person of Interest', but the idea is basically the same. You take a collection of data, and hone in on specific occurrences, and various bits of data. For example, and purely that, words like Jihad, Al-Quida, Infidel, and other terms I dare not mention specifically as to prevent this thread from becoming inflammatory, are probably looked for. When certain words, and phrases, are uttered, or used in a frequent enough, and surreptitious enough of a nature, you begin honing in on whole conversations. In the mean time, it does require you to scour all sources of communication on the network. So even though you may not be "listening" into me, and my neighbor talk, you are still hearing and processing various bits of our conversations (granted, not physically hearing, but I assume you're smart enough to catch my drift). I know you don't "listen" to every conversation, but you do have the ability to, and you do observe them all.

At that, there is always the Freedom of Information Act. As long as it doesn't immediately pertain to national security, I do believe I have the right to see what kind of information has been accessed, and recorded. If memory serves, it seems that the Supreme Court recently decided that this is one possible way to apply FOIA. That said, you can't possibly assure me that you, or the Government cannot be hacked. As I recall, Iran proved that to be rather fallible with the recent capture of a drone. All systems are subject to exploitation, given adequate resources, time, and knowledge.

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-10-2012, 06:43 AM
Well, in a sense you do know who the terrorists are. And you can get a rough idea without listening in on me, or my neighbor. Truth of the matter is, you just monitor chatter from other countries. When you find something suspicious from another country that gets flagged for whatever reason, you follow it to it's source, and to its destination. Then you continue monitoring all communications from a similar origin, until you can narrow similar chatter down to a specific location, be it an IP address, or physical address, or the like. When that's all said and done, you can hone in on those working against us here in the mother land, without having to "passively" observe the rest of us (I say passively for reasons I'll get into later).

That said, I don't honestly believe, nor do I suspect that anyone else believes terrorists are just "playing video games". They're using this type of telecommunications to hide their communications. That is it. They are hiding in plain sight, because they know that it isn't monitored, or at least not as heavily as other means of communications. That said, I do believe they play somewhat, to give the illusion of normal gaming activity, thus helping them to hide in plain sight.

As I mentioned before, this type of monitoring is very threatening to civil rights. What I would imagine would be the best form of observation for such a vast network of systems would be general monitoring through passive observation. I don't know if you have ever seen that show 'Person of Interest', but the idea is basically the same. You take a collection of data, and hone in on specific occurrences, and various bits of data. For example, and purely that, words like Jihad, Al-Quida, Infidel, and other terms I dare not mention specifically as to prevent this thread from becoming inflammatory, are probably looked for. When certain words, and phrases, are uttered, or used in a frequent enough, and surreptitious enough of a nature, you begin honing in on whole conversations. In the mean time, it does require you to scour all sources of communication on the network. So even though you may not be "listening" into me, and my neighbor talk, you are still hearing and processing various bits of our conversations (granted, not physically hearing, but I assume you're smart enough to catch my drift). I know you don't "listen" to every conversation, but you do have the ability to, and you do observe them all.

At that, there is always the Freedom of Information Act. As long as it doesn't immediately pertain to national security, I do believe I have the right to see what kind of information has been accessed, and recorded. If memory serves, it seems that the Supreme Court recently decided that this is one possible way to apply FOIA. That said, you can't possibly assure me that you, or the Government cannot be hacked. As I recall, Iran proved that to be rather fallible with the recent capture of a drone. All systems are subject to exploitation, given adequate resources, time, and knowledge.

You make very valid points and I respect you for being very well informed and educated :D I mean you seem to know enough about how we work when we track down terrorists. I would make more comments, but I do not want to get in trouble with the higher ups (if they stumble upon this conversation). But I assure you, our goal isn't to impede on rights and such, we just want to catch the terrorist, which is getting harder and harder due to them getting smarter with technology and so we must too. What you mentioned about the show of "Person of Interests" is close to what we do, just by being able to monitor online gaming conversations, it will broaden our search. We run all monitored conversations through a software that we input certain phrases that have been used by other terrorists, relating to their operations and stuff like that, then it flags it for us and then we check out the possible suspects. Basically that's how it works. Remember we are here to protect Americans from threats, whether it be internal or external. I enlisted to protect you and all American citizens, we love America and we will do anything to protect it's citizens. Of course, there could also be threats inside our ranks, which we also monitor at all times, we try our best to secure this country from any threat and internal threats are the most dangerous because they are tougher to find. Also, FOLA wouldn't apply to this because it is a National Security risk to release such information.

Also, the drone was terminated upon capture, it was completely wiped dry of any information and the inner workings self-destructed. We don't go into any situation without thinking of those risks, plus we still have the information the drone was carrying safe with us, but the drone does not work anymore.

But as you are a citizen, you have the right to worry or panic that your rights are being impeded and you also have the right to free speech. I am glad you are exercising that right! :)

De Filosoof
04-10-2012, 11:55 AM
Actually, it is. It's apparently a very easy way to have untraceable private conversations and it's actually being used by terrorist organizations.

Lol;).

The evil terrorist threat

De Filosoof
04-10-2012, 11:57 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsrMzfhdmkU

now THIS is terrorism...

LightRey
04-10-2012, 11:58 AM
Lol;).

The evil terrorist threat
Don't get me wrong. I'm completely against the entire idea of fighting terrorism in this way. I just want to point out that this is actually happening.

frogger504
04-10-2012, 01:40 PM
"They also want to be able to glean data from a used game console and obtain useful information about the prior owner's communications with other gamers."

WTH? This sounds like a violation of civil rights. If you sell a used console and some guy in the navy happens to buy it, the government should have no business prying into your life.

It is totally okay because it is for America, it's for your defense! The terrorists will get you if you aren't monitored 24/7!

Did yiou guys hear about the 30,000 Spy Drones going above the US to survey the entire country at all times?

frogger504
04-10-2012, 01:41 PM
The American Government is the biggest terrorist organization in the world right now.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-10-2012, 03:21 PM
You make very valid points and I respect you for being very well informed and educated :D I mean you seem to know enough about how we work when we track down terrorists. I would make more comments, but I do not want to get in trouble with the higher ups (if they stumble upon this conversation). But I assure you, our goal isn't to impede on rights and such, we just want to catch the terrorist, which is getting harder and harder due to them getting smarter with technology and so we must too. What you mentioned about the show of "Person of Interests" is close to what we do, just by being able to monitor online gaming conversations, it will broaden our search. We run all monitored conversations through a software that we input certain phrases that have been used by other terrorists, relating to their operations and stuff like that, then it flags it for us and then we check out the possible suspects. Basically that's how it works. Remember we are here to protect Americans from threats, whether it be internal or external. I enlisted to protect you and all American citizens, we love America and we will do anything to protect it's citizens. Of course, there could also be threats inside our ranks, which we also monitor at all times, we try our best to secure this country from any threat and internal threats are the most dangerous because they are tougher to find. Also, FOLA wouldn't apply to this because it is a National Security risk to release such information.

Also, the drone was terminated upon capture, it was completely wiped dry of any information and the inner workings self-destructed. We don't go into any situation without thinking of those risks, plus we still have the information the drone was carrying safe with us, but the drone does not work anymore.

But as you are a citizen, you have the right to worry or panic that your rights are being impeded and you also have the right to free speech. I am glad you are exercising that right! :)

The only three points, the first of which is rather mute, that I will argue. The first being that you may say that it was wiped clean, but you can never truly wipe a computer. As long as some of the internal hardware exists, it's possible to pull some data from it. The Iranians even said they got some data. And even if they didn't, I imagine that there would still be other information gained from having such an item in their posession. But that's a story for another time.


Second of all, the truth of the matter is, as good, and pure, as your intentions may be with something like this, it really does open the door for a lot of things. Even if you aren't going to use it as a way to limit our personal rights, limit DRM, infringe on copyrights, and infilitrate companies, the door has still been opened for you to do so. At this point, if something like this were to make it through the respected Government agencies, I believe the foundation for such atrocities will have already been laid. This is the blunt of my fears.

That said, I do believe FOIA would actually apply here, as it applies to all non critical information not directly involving national security. That said, I cited a Supreme Court Case earlier. I'll try to find it to further explain what I mean. You have to understand that I am not refering to information regarding terrorist, and terrorist activities, but information regarding the rest of us.



It is totally okay because it is for America, it's for your defense! The terrorists will get you if you aren't monitored 24/7!

Did yiou guys hear about the 30,000 Spy Drones going above the US to survey the entire country at all times?

Let us remember that we are a country of the people, for the people.

Steww-
04-10-2012, 03:28 PM
If it's any consolation, the United States of Europe isn't far behind.

frogger504
04-10-2012, 03:52 PM
Let us remember that we are a country of the people, for the people.

I lol'd

Locopells
04-10-2012, 03:57 PM
Let us remember that we are a country of the people, for the people.

Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa......'Points and laughs....'

LightRey
04-10-2012, 04:02 PM
Let's not let this discussion escalate please. -_-

frogger504
04-10-2012, 04:16 PM
Let's not let this discussion escalate please. -_-
You'd have to be here to understand I guess..

Also, this is the discussion isn't it?

SixKeys
04-10-2012, 04:18 PM
The discussion is about the possible misuse of gaming technology by the US government. Not how much you personally hate the US and your opinion of them as a nation of terrorists.

frogger504
04-10-2012, 04:20 PM
The discussion is about the possible misuse of gaming technology by the US government. Not how much you personally hate the US and your opinion of them as a nation of terrorists.

I never said I hated the US... did I?

LightRey
04-10-2012, 04:21 PM
You'd have to be here to understand I guess..

Also, this is the discussion isn't it?
The discussion is about the motivation of the US government to spy on console gamers as a ways to monitor terrorists, who are using the online chatrooms consoles provide as an easy way to have an untraceable conversation over the internet. It is in no way about whether the US government is "good" or "bad" and I would refrain from turning this into such a discussion as it is strictly against the rules. The topic on its own is already quite a grey area.

Steww-
04-10-2012, 04:22 PM
If the terrorists are using PS3 chat rooms we should be fine.
You think the censor on this site is bad? oO

De Filosoof
04-10-2012, 08:37 PM
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2012/03/14/terrorist_id_chart.jpg

;)

LightRey
04-10-2012, 08:41 PM
http://occuprint.org/wiki/uploads/Posters/TerroristIDChart.png

;)
xDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDD

THE-FACE-94
04-10-2012, 09:06 PM
intresting

Jexx21
04-10-2012, 09:07 PM
...I don't mind.

Why should I care if the US Government sees my meaningless secrets? If by giving up my privacy future terrorist attacks can be evaded, then I'd do it in a heartbeat.

De Filosoof
04-10-2012, 09:32 PM
Lol

coxiewoo123
04-10-2012, 09:34 PM
Just read through this thread. Every time I read "the Government", I thought "Abstergo", and that Subject 16 puzzle where someone stumbles across all their personal information, and the fact that Abstergo knows it all.... maybe Assassin's Creed isn't so fictional after all.... the Templars are gonna come for you Poodle_of_Doom.

On a serious note, what right do they have to do this? I don't really know much about this stuff, but surely they could obtain credit card details and the like by doing this? (Feel free to correct me if that isn't so)

SixKeys
04-10-2012, 09:36 PM
...I don't mind.

Why should I care if the US Government sees my meaningless secrets? If by giving up my privacy future terrorist attacks can be evaded, then I'd do it in a heartbeat.

This is quite a terrifying thing to say. I suggest giving Orwell's Nineteen-Eighty Four a read for an idea of what it means when governments start stripping away people's privacy and civil rights in favor of battling terrorists.

Jexx21
04-10-2012, 09:52 PM
Oh, I'm not saying that it isn't amoral. I'm just saying that I don't mind.

LightRey
04-10-2012, 10:10 PM
...I don't mind.

Why should I care if the US Government sees my meaningless secrets? If by giving up my privacy future terrorist attacks can be evaded, then I'd do it in a heartbeat.
You do realize that they could use the information they'd get in a heartbeat, right? They'd be able to know almost everything about anyone. Suppose a governor of a state is a gamer, a corrupt organization could easily use that information to control said governor. See the problem? Anyways, if a country is actually this afraid of terrorists, then maybe it shouldn't be p*ssing off people that much in the first place.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-11-2012, 02:37 AM
Just read through this thread. Every time I read "the Government", I thought "Abstergo", and that Subject 16 puzzle where someone stumbles across all their personal information, and the fact that Abstergo knows it all.... maybe Assassin's Creed isn't so fictional after all.... the Templars are gonna come for you Poodle_of_Doom.

On a serious note, what right do they have to do this? I don't really know much about this stuff, but surely they could obtain credit card details and the like by doing this? (Feel free to correct me if that isn't so)

I'm happy to see that this post has inspired your first. Thanks for joining in on the conversation.

That said, they could, and could use it to trace your movements, if that's how you were paying. Granted, if you use the network cards, they're untracable, as long as you pay in cash. You can connect the pin to a transaction, and to a credit card. But if they use cash, then your done.



...I don't mind.

Why should I care if the US Government sees my meaningless secrets? If by giving up my privacy future terrorist attacks can be evaded, then I'd do it in a heartbeat.


This is quite a terrifying thing to say. I suggest giving Orwell's Nineteen-Eighty Four a read for an idea of what it means when governments start stripping away people's privacy and civil rights in favor of battling terrorists.

It really is isn't it? At what point do you quit giving things up to satisfy the need for security? Does one stop just shy of the right to life? Or do we step in at some other point along the way? It's a shame to give up your liberties so freely.



You do realize that they could use the information they'd get in a heartbeat, right? They'd be able to know almost everything about anyone. Suppose a governor of a state is a gamer, a corrupt organization could easily use that information to control said governor. See the problem? Anyways, if a country is actually this afraid of terrorists, then maybe it shouldn't be p*ssing off people that much in the first place.

That's a callous thing to say. To suggest that someone should die because they've offended you is absolutely sickening. Granted, I don't think this is what you meant, but the fact that you would say something like that, that could be taken that way, is something I never expected from you.

Second of all, it's not just about that. You could use the data gathered to hold just about any one out there hostage via virtual means.


Bwah ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha haaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa......'Points and laughs....'

A picture is worth a thousand words, or so they say....

http://ts4.mm.bing.net/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=4908250482737843&id=a6284df81417272d17dbe468641be5d8

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-11-2012, 03:14 AM
http://www.indybay.org/uploads/2012/03/14/terrorist_id_chart.jpg

;)
hahahaha as funny as this is, it is just a complete exaggeration. :P

Jexx21
04-11-2012, 03:23 AM
That's a callous thing to say. To suggest that someone should die because they've offended you is absolutely sickening. Granted, I don't think this is what you meant, but the fact that you would say something like that, that could be taken that way, is something I never expected from you.



LightRey didn't say anything like that..

Poodle_of_Doom
04-11-2012, 03:43 AM
LightRey didn't say anything like that..

No, what he said was:


if a country is actually this afraid of terrorists, then maybe it shouldn't be p*ssing off people that much in the first place.

And it just so happened that the last group we pissed off decided to blow up a building, and kill over 2000 people. And the last group Britan p*ssed off that much killed 52 people, and wounded over 700 more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings). Maybe I should go further?

So my point stands,.... If your afraid of terrorist, don't piss them off? Well, you can't reason with psychotic individuals. Second of all, it isn't that we're afraid of them, it's that we're afraid of what might happen. That's what you need to comprehend in this situation. It seems that he was trying to insinuate that you get what you get when you p*ss other country's off, and as of late, the trend has made comments like this rather unflattering.

Black_Widow9
04-11-2012, 07:35 AM
This Topic is pretty grey so please watch it ok. We will continue to keep an eye on it. The intelligent conversation is welcome for the time being.

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-11-2012, 07:51 AM
No, what he said was:



And it just so happened that the last group we pissed off decided to blow up a building, and kill over 2000 people. And the last group Britan p*ssed off that much killed 52 people, and wounded over 700 more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings). Maybe I should go further?

So my point stands,.... If your afraid of terrorist, don't piss them off? Well, you can't reason with psychotic individuals. Second of all, it isn't that we're afraid of them, it's that we're afraid of what might happen. That's what you need to comprehend in this situation. It seems that he was trying to insinuate that you get what you get when you p*ss other country's off, and as of late, the trend has made comments like this rather unflattering.

Exactly. So it's our fault jihadists want this country of freedom dead? They want to destroy the freedom of religion and the rights of people in this country, they don't like what we stand for. We didn't piss them off, they just don't like what we stand for. It's like telling a kid who gets bullied, to stop pissing off his bullies, so that he can stop being picked on. Which basically means, change who you are and everything about yourself that makes the bullies beat on you.

sorry, but no. This is the United States and we very well like our freedom and we will fight at all costs to keep it.

De Filosoof
04-11-2012, 11:09 AM
hahahaha as funny as this is, it is just a complete exaggeration. :P

Ofcourse it is :).

De Filosoof
04-11-2012, 11:31 AM
No, what he said was:



And it just so happened that the last group we pissed off decided to blow up a building, and kill over 2000 people. And the last group Britan p*ssed off that much killed 52 people, and wounded over 700 more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings). Maybe I should go further?

So my point stands,.... If your afraid of terrorist, don't piss them off? Well, you can't reason with psychotic individuals. Second of all, it isn't that we're afraid of them, it's that we're afraid of what might happen. That's what you need to comprehend in this situation. It seems that he was trying to insinuate that you get what you get when you p*ss other country's off, and as of late, the trend has made comments like this rather unflattering.

I understand your point of view but maybe it's time to question your reality.

Here are some very interesting documentaries about 9/11. You will start to see that there's many stuff wrong with the official explanations .
I hope the victims of 9/11 will one day find justice for what really happened :(...

Loose change (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=quTifldhH-g)
The obama deception (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eAaQNACwaLw)
Fahrenheit 9/11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=chj5R0Izt9s)
Painful deceptions (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H5wkyEDIxTk)
Confronting the evidence, a very good lecture with experts. (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7871917330806338693)
Zeitgeist, 4 parts about 9/11 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7_E4N5YIycI)

Here's also a nice article about 9/11: http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2007/sep/12/911thebigcoverup

A nice little thing to note is that only 15 million went into the offical 9/11 investigation and 40 into the Clinton-Lewinsky affair investigation.
a few sources : http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,437267,00.html and http://www.911myths.com/index.php/Comparing_costs

Please watch some of these documentaries and let me know what you think :).
I don't think you can form a realistic few of the word when you're only following the news of the mainstream media on your TV.
The internet has a free flow of information governments still can't touch (yet).
i can send you some more information if you're interested in the subject.


It's even AC related. When you watch the glyph puzzles in AC, you will understand the true nature of the monetary system.
The elitists have to create an evil group to control other parts of the world and justify war without large amounts of people getting in their way (aka brainwash)


So my point stands,.... If your afraid of terrorist, don't piss them off? Well, you can't reason with psychotic individuals
A few questions.
What would you do when a military group invaded your country, knowing it is without any good reasons?
What would you do when they shot your parents and/or children, knowing they were good and innocent people?
What would you do when they raped your wife?
What would you do when they bommed your community and friends?
There's a big chance you would seek revenge.
This would make you a terrorist in their eyes.
Would this make you a psychotic individual? or someone who can't think straight anymore because of the pain and loss he endured.


Just some food for thought, that's all.



Peace.

Locopells
04-11-2012, 11:36 AM
Exactly. So it's our fault jihadists want this country of freedom dead? They want to destroy the freedom of religion and the rights of people in this country, they don't like what we stand for. We didn't piss them off, they just don't like what we stand for. It's like telling a kid who gets bullied, to stop pissing off his bullies, so that he can stop being picked on. Which basically means, change who you are and everything about yourself that makes the bullies beat on you.

sorry, but no. This is the United States and we very well like our freedom and we will fight at all costs to keep it.

Well in relation to what PoD is saying, you do realise that the first incident was apprently perp'ed by people you had perviously armed to fight past "terrorists"? I don't think he saying don't protect yourself, just don't mess in your own pants...

No disrespect to the dead, naturally.

LightRey
04-11-2012, 12:59 PM
No, what he said was:



And it just so happened that the last group we pissed off decided to blow up a building, and kill over 2000 people. And the last group Britan p*ssed off that much killed 52 people, and wounded over 700 more (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_July_2005_London_bombings). Maybe I should go further?

So my point stands,.... If your afraid of terrorist, don't piss them off? Well, you can't reason with psychotic individuals. Second of all, it isn't that we're afraid of them, it's that we're afraid of what might happen. That's what you need to comprehend in this situation. It seems that he was trying to insinuate that you get what you get when you p*ss other country's off, and as of late, the trend has made comments like this rather unflattering.
You misinterpret my words. Also, you are assuming that the terrorists are the people that started this whole mess, which is wrong. The members of terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda and the Taliban hate the US. Why? Not because their faith tells them the US is a place of evil, but because for decades the US has been responsible for supporting dictators in the Middle East, funding a country half the Middle East is technically at war with and since the US "retribution" killing innocent civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

You claim these people are psychotic, but they are not. They are regular people who feel they, their families and their people have been wronged by the US. They truly see the US as one of the biggest evils in the world and with good reason. I do not in any way condone their methods, but if you fund dictatorships and wars and kill innocent people, you are going to make enemies. In many ways it is the US that cannot be reasoned with.

frogger504
04-11-2012, 03:29 PM
You misinterpret my words. Also, you are assuming that the terrorists are the people that started this whole mess, which is wrong. The members of terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda and the Taliban hate the US. Why? Not because their faith tells them the US is a place of evil, but because for decades the US has been responsible for supporting dictators in the Middle East, funding a country half the Middle East is technically at war with and since the US "retribution" killing innocent civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

You claim these people are psychotic, but they are not. They are regular people who feel they, their families and their people have been wronged by the US. They truly see the US as one of the biggest evils in the world and with good reason. I do not in any way condone their methods, but if you fund dictatorships and wars and kill innocent people, you are going to make enemies. In many ways it is the US that cannot be reasoned with.

Wow, first time I can honestly say I've got some respect for you.
Although being neutral in the situation makes it a plus.

LightRey is 100% right this time.

I couldn't agree more.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-11-2012, 08:12 PM
Exactly. So it's our fault jihadists want this country of freedom dead? They want to destroy the freedom of religion and the rights of people in this country, they don't like what we stand for. We didn't piss them off, they just don't like what we stand for. It's like telling a kid who gets bullied, to stop pissing off his bullies, so that he can stop being picked on. Which basically means, change who you are and everything about yourself that makes the bullies beat on you.

sorry, but no. This is the United States and we very well like our freedom and we will fight at all costs to keep it.

Similar point, but different from what I was getting at.[


I understand your point of view but maybe it's time to question your reality.


A few questions.
What would you do when a military group invaded your country, knowing it is without any good reasons?
What would you do when they shot your parents and/or children, knowing they were good and innocent people?
What would you do when they raped your wife?
What would you do when they bommed your community and friends?
There's a big chance you would seek revenge.
This would make you a terrorist in their eyes.
Would this make you a psychotic individual? or someone who can't think straight anymore because of the pain and loss he endured.



Actually, those same questions can be asked of you, and your beliefes. They came into my coutry, and attacked me. They attacked men, women, and children that were inncocent people. The did it to detroy my country, through a bombing of my financial centers. And now we are seeking revenge, and it has made them terrorists. That said, it's time to question your reality as well. You know the movies you cited were made by conspiracy theorists right? That they distort facts?



You misinterpret my words. Also, you are assuming that the terrorists are the people that started this whole mess, which is wrong. The members of terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda and the Taliban hate the US. Why? Not because their faith tells them the US is a place of evil, but because for decades the US has been responsible for supporting dictators in the Middle East, funding a country half the Middle East is technically at war with and since the US "retribution" killing innocent civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

You claim these people are psychotic, but they are not. They are regular people who feel they, their families and their people have been wronged by the US. They truly see the US as one of the biggest evils in the world and with good reason. I do not in any way condone their methods, but if you fund dictatorships and wars and kill innocent people, you are going to make enemies. In many ways it is the US that cannot be reasoned with.


Actually, I understood what you meant. It's just that they way you said it left room for interpretation. Believe me when I say I'm with you on that.

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-11-2012, 09:26 PM
You misinterpret my words. Also, you are assuming that the terrorists are the people that started this whole mess, which is wrong. The members of terrorist organizations such as Al Qaeda and the Taliban hate the US. Why? Not because their faith tells them the US is a place of evil, but because for decades the US has been responsible for supporting dictators in the Middle East, funding a country half the Middle East is technically at war with and since the US "retribution" killing innocent civilians in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

You claim these people are psychotic, but they are not. They are regular people who feel they, their families and their people have been wronged by the US. They truly see the US as one of the biggest evils in the world and with good reason. I do not in any way condone their methods, but if you fund dictatorships and wars and kill innocent people, you are going to make enemies. In many ways it is the US that cannot be reasoned with.

1. We haven't killed innocent lives in Iraq or Afghanistan. Yes, there are casualties of war, but we haven't deliberately killed innocent lives.
2. The Taliban kill their own people. Is that really someone who wants to avenge their families and people?
3. Taliban supported dictators too.
4. Which country are you talking about?

OH, Iraqis and Afghans really like us and what we did for them. They are very grateful. To bad the media never shows that side and paints all of our military as some sadistic people, that enjoy killing and murdering children and who are despised by all the Iraqis and Afghan.

D.I.D.
04-11-2012, 10:23 PM
1. We haven't killed innocent lives in Iraq or Afghanistan. Yes, there are casualties of war, but we haven't deliberately killed innocent lives.


1. Yes. "Shock and Awe" was about creating a big dramatic lightshow, world-scale chest-beating. But civilians paid the price. Thousands of innocent people have died in Afghanistan and Iraq.

I've seen loads of Iraqis and Afghanis on TV who are grateful to the US, and I've seen them on US TV and UK TV. I lived in N America for years until 2008, watching your TV, and if anything there was a conspicuous absence of critical opinion on your coverage. You're exaggerating enormously. There are many others who are unhappy with what your country has done. All opinions are important.

D.I.D.
04-11-2012, 10:42 PM
Exactly. So it's our fault jihadists want this country of freedom dead? They want to destroy the freedom of religion and the rights of people in this country, they don't like what we stand for. We didn't piss them off, they just don't like what we stand for. It's like telling a kid who gets bullied, to stop pissing off his bullies, so that he can stop being picked on. Which basically means, change who you are and everything about yourself that makes the bullies beat on you.

sorry, but no. This is the United States and we very well like our freedom and we will fight at all costs to keep it.

There were some notable triggers. One, you need to research the involvement of the West with the Mujahideen in the region during the 80s, and why they and Russia were using these remote-control armies to fight a divorced war. Second, it wasn't entirely surprising if you were watching the news in the run-up to this. It was a point of tension because the Taliban's actions had been increasingly provocative and aggressive inside Afghanistan: the fighting, the refugees, the destruction of sites of religious significance. In early 2001, I think if it was April, there was a security meeting convened by the US in which the possibility of military action against Afghanistan was discussed. Of course, nobody thought there would or could be a retaliation - certainly nothing like the 9/11 attacks - but when they happened, quite a lot of people were fully aware why the attacks had been called.

I am not saying the attacks were justified, and I expect the plans for 9/11 were around in some form or other before 2001 since it must have taken a lot of planning.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-11-2012, 11:21 PM
So the future of gaming v2 is going to take a political and military justification themes? sorry I have not read the prior pages....should I? XD actually if I may, there is a video where one of these radicals is planning to overtake the Vatican for what the Crusades did to them nearly 1,000 years ago, then the Americas because not only did we do 'wrong' things as it has been stated above, but also because we aid there worst and most hated adversary, Israel, then he goes on to say they will go and take over Europe....>_> so to me its not even about the American government doing 'wrong' things, but its also about the fact that these people are very vengeful and for any reason they can gather they find it to justify their violent actions. Minus the fact that in the '90's when Russia was invading the middle eastern territories, after that little episode they decide to bomb and terrorize a kindergarten or grade school in 2006. So why all the blame on America when in reality these people hate the whole world and are never happy where ever they are.... unless I got it all wrong ?

One more thing these radical Muslims or as you guys refer to them as terrorist, they were committing acts of genocide in Africa just because they could. Just because they saw the tribes in Africa as infidels. Admit it , it has nothing to do with the American government, its not Europe's fault that the Crusades tried to take over the 'holy land', its not Russia's fault for trying to secure corporate interest(oil)(same goes for America there.) so that their nation can produce its own gas so they do not end up relying on the middle east for supplies(Imagine if we needed to import gas from the Middle East >_> umm you think gas prices are high now? lmao XD, do you think in times of war that the Middle East would help us if they felt that helping us meant betraying Allah? helping an infidel? ), These people, probably due to their beliefs, hate the world because we have not met there expectations of conduct as a whole.

Every big government does something 'wrong', and these people are keeping a close account on things ;)

Poodle_of_Doom
04-12-2012, 12:02 AM
So the future of gaming v2 is going to take a political and military justification themes? sorry I have not read the prior pages....should I? XD


Actually, you should, as the conversation was reletively brilliant until about middle of page three, to beginning of page four.

Acrimonious_Nin
04-12-2012, 12:19 AM
Actually, you should, as the conversation was reletively brilliant until about middle of page three, to beginning of page four.

lol Thank You.

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-12-2012, 06:29 AM
Actually, you should, as the conversation was reletively brilliant until about middle of page three, to beginning of page four.
^ this.

And to the people telling me to do my research and such, I'm in the military and I had uncles in the military, one of which went to Iraq as a Sgt. I know are country's military involvement in the Middle East, but in no way is our "help" a reason to kill innocent people on their part.

Did you know that the Taliban brutally murders their own people? Did you know that if a Muslim converts to Christianity in the Middle East, they are either hanged, stoned, burned alive, or worst? Did you know that the Taliban attracts children to their cars with candy and then blows them up? No?

We as the military saw our chance to help out these people that were oppressed for so long. We don't care whatever the government plans are, we could care less about politicians. We don't fight for them, we fight for the American people and for freedom. We fight for justice, just like Connor does.

You can have your opinions, you can say what you want. It's your God given right and it's a right we will rightfully defend with our lives. I'm glad you all have wonderful opinions and I'm not able to silence you or have you arrested. It's something we fight for other countries to have also. But, there shouldn't be any defaming of the military by calling us murderers. We fight for you for a measly $30,000 a year when politicians make 3x as much. Don't blame the military for doing it's job and protecting you, blame the politicians for lying and deceiving the public. We don't care about politics, we care about the protection of America and it's people.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-12-2012, 06:52 AM
And to the people telling me to do my research and such, I'm in the military and I had uncles in the military, one of which went to Iraq as a Sgt. I know are country's military involvement in the Middle East, but in no way is our "help" a reason to kill innocent people on their part.

Without getting into a huge argument on the subject. I'll simply present my thoughts in a word. Gitmo.

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-12-2012, 07:54 AM
Without getting into a huge argument on the subject. I'll simply present my thoughts in a word. Gitmo.
To counter, that's operated by the Department of Defense and Homeland Security and also the CIA. Not the Military. Actually, the military has reported against Gitmo several times, the Air Force helped the FBI lead an investigation on it. Some soldiers have posed as prisoners and have suffered greatly to prove the injustice being done in there. Gitmo is not operated by the U.S. Military or the FBI.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-12-2012, 04:39 PM
To counter, that's operated by the Department of Defense and Homeland Security and also the CIA. Not the Military. Actually, the military has reported against Gitmo several times, the Air Force helped the FBI lead an investigation on it. Some soldiers have posed as prisoners and have suffered greatly to prove the injustice being done in there. Gitmo is not operated by the U.S. Military or the FBI.

Because you know, no femal officers ever forced suspects to strip down to their bare asses, only to do obscene things to them, cover their heads with bags, and force them into a human pyrimid. Nope, that never happened, and that's not a reason to hate the military. And you know, it's not like some of our people go off in the streets, killing several innocent people. Never happened in Iraq. And that certainly wouldn't be a reason to hate the military....

My point wasn't who it was ran by. The truth of the matter is, there are military people there. And where there are military people, especially ones under high levels of stress, there seems to be a lot of inhumane things going on. Remember, it only takes one apple to spoil the bunch. Same goes for public opinion....

tH3PatRi0Tx1776
04-12-2012, 07:29 PM
Because you know, no femal officers ever forced suspects to strip down to their bare asses, only to do obscene things to them, cover their heads with bags, and force them into a human pyrimid. Nope, that never happened, and that's not a reason to hate the military. And you know, it's not like some of our people go off in the streets, killing several innocent people. Never happened in Iraq. And that certainly wouldn't be a reason to hate the military....

My point wasn't who it was ran by. The truth of the matter is, there are military people there. And where there are military people, especially ones under high levels of stress, there seems to be a lot of inhumane things going on. Remember, it only takes one apple to spoil the bunch. Same goes for public opinion....

As I stated, the military has no involvement in what goes on inside the base. The closest involvement is the security outside of it, yes, the military security is there. But anyone who does the interrogations and such inside, are not military officials. The reason the military and the FBI have done investigations against it, is because they pose as military officials and FBI agents to scare the Prisoners. Which then leads the public to believe that the military and the FBI are the ones doing the atrocities, which is clearly not the case. In the military, there are rules to warfare. When we capture POW's, which they clearly are, we cannot torture them or treat them inhumane. That is not the correct thing to do, but the Taliban doesn't care about that anyways either. I mean, our soldiers get their heads chopped off with blunt swords and get mutilated and also treated way more inhumane. But the point is, we clearly shouldn't act like the Taliban and that is what the military believes. But Gitmo isn't operated by the military, it's operated by the Department of Defense and Homeland Security officials. Military officials don't take part in it, why else would we send in our men as undercover prisoners to find out what is going on?

Also, when those soldiers who have crossed the line by killing civilians (which is the first thing we are taught not to do) they are sent to Court Martial, yes they military has it's own set of laws a soldier must obey and follow, we are held to higher standards than civilians are. For that reason, every soldier who has killed civilians has been imprisoned for a very long time and dishonorably discharged. We don't pat them on the back and congratulate them, that type of behavior is frowned upon in society and in the military.

So just because a couple of soldiers lose their minds and commit horrendous crimes, the whole military is sadistic? No wonder there isn't any respect for soldiers in this country anymore. We risk our lives for the safety of this country and the public opinion is that we are inhumane, that sure does show a lot of gratitude.

The logic is flawed, too because the truth of the matter is wherever there are a lot people, there seems to be a lot of inhumane things going on. Also, where there are a few people too. Wherever you go, there will be people, military or civilian, who are inhumane, All of humanity is inhumane. War is inhumane. It's not just the military and the actions of one soldier or civilian, shouldn't speak for the whole organization or population. If one student kills other students, then that shouldn't mean that all the students are prone to be murderers.

Poodle_of_Doom
04-12-2012, 08:11 PM
As I stated, the military has no involvement in what goes on inside the base. The closest involvement is the security outside of it, yes, the military security is there. But anyone who does the interrogations and such inside, are not military officials. The reason the military and the FBI have done investigations against it, is because they pose as military officials and FBI agents to scare the Prisoners. Which then leads the public to believe that the military and the FBI are the ones doing the atrocities, which is clearly not the case. In the military, there are rules to warfare. When we capture POW's, which they clearly are, we cannot torture them or treat them inhumane. That is not the correct thing to do, but the Taliban doesn't care about that anyways either. I mean, our soldiers get their heads chopped off with blunt swords and get mutilated and also treated way more inhumane. But the point is, we clearly shouldn't act like the Taliban and that is what the military believes. But Gitmo isn't operated by the military, it's operated by the Department of Defense and Homeland Security officials. Military officials don't take part in it, why else would we send in our men as undercover prisoners to find out what is going on?

Also, when those soldiers who have crossed the line by killing civilians (which is the first thing we are taught not to do) they are sent to Court Martial, yes they military has it's own set of laws a soldier must obey and follow, we are held to higher standards than civilians are. For that reason, every soldier who has killed civilians has been imprisoned for a very long time and dishonorably discharged. We don't pat them on the back and congratulate them, that type of behavior is frowned upon in society and in the military.

So just because a couple of soldiers lose their minds and commit horrendous crimes, the whole military is sadistic? No wonder there isn't any respect for soldiers in this country anymore. We risk our lives for the safety of this country and the public opinion is that we are inhumane, that sure does show a lot of gratitude.

The logic is flawed, too because the truth of the matter is wherever there are a lot people, there seems to be a lot of inhumane things going on. Also, where there are a few people too. Wherever you go, there will be people, military or civilian, who are inhumane, All of humanity is inhumane. War is inhumane. It's not just the military and the actions of one soldier or civilian, shouldn't speak for the whole organization or population. If one student kills other students, then that shouldn't mean that all the students are prone to be murderers.


There's a whole slue of things wrong with this place:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp

Truth be known, it doesn't matter who these people are. You are being judged by people who do not know you, and have no way to get to know you but through your actions. If this is the kind of behavior you seen, and these atrocities were commited against you regularly, I bet you'd be resistant to. I'm not saying their take on things is correct, but that I can understand a flawed perceptions. All I'm saying is it's hard to seperate bad from good when you don't know they other side.

jmk1999
04-13-2012, 03:42 AM
Thread closed by request.