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View Full Version : Historical Misinformation In Assassins Creed Revalations



Dteved898
03-30-2012, 05:17 AM
I am a historical expert on medieval and ancient history and I can say with certainty that although I have only been playing for a few hours I have noticed that there's a lot of historical inaccuracies and misinformation in this game . I'm looking at one of the most erroneous right now, Constantine did not "spread the Christian faith by force"! Nor was his "brand of Christianity" militant at all. Christianity was a religion of convenience for him because it helped unite the empire, so this is just blatantly false. Islam was the religion that was spread by force. Those that did not convert when conquered were killed,enslaved, forcibly relocated (by death march) to distant remote areas after conquest those survivors still free, were burdened by crippling taxes.

Constantinople was not formally named Istanbul till the 19th century.

A Christian military presence ESPECIALLY a Byzantine one, would not be tolerated under any cir****tances in any Islamic city.



I know you need a antagonist group but why so hard Templars? Why not Include some other religious groups under the bad guy umbrella like in the first game. I dont suppose It should be mentioned that the Ottomans were huge slave importers and exporters. It wasnt safe to live on the coast of Europe in these times because there were Constant slaving raids as far north as Ireland and Iceland. Slavery was not widely practiced in Europe or by Christians.

I just think that maybe you should re-evaluate your historical data sources, because even though this is a game, historical falsities shouldnt be put in then claimed to be true. people can have a lot of bias and let there personal feelings get in the way of facts.

I will report back with further inaccuracies as I find them.

Thanks!

Poodle_of_Doom
03-30-2012, 06:30 AM
Wow... I don't know what to say. But I'll start here: At this point, you should be aware of the fact that the Knights Templar have been seperated from Christianity within the game. Christianity is not being targeted here.

Second of all, I'm concerned at the fact that you think they implied that Constantine was forceablely spreading any sort of religion. I personally don't recall that being included in the game anywhere, and would love for you to point out where that was.

Third off, the game was never reported to be historically accurate. They simply said that it was accurate when they had reference materials supporting it. For what it's worth, I'd much rather believe Ubisoft to believing you. Ubisoft has an entire team dedicated to nothing more than historical accuracies, that include, but are not limited to, historians, fact checkers, researchers, and many other individuals of prestige.

PhonedZero
03-30-2012, 06:40 AM
Far as i'm concerned, in the end, this is a work of fiction. A great story woven within actual history, I think its a given that the story will take what it will from history and use creative licence to drive the story where they want it to go.

john63
03-30-2012, 07:28 AM
A few things should be noted here: a central idea of the AC franchise is that the history we're told in classrooms and textbooks may not be entirely accurate. Discrepancies between real history and AC history have been addressed, since AC1 (speech from Vidic, conversation with Lucy), as deliberate misinformation created by the Templars and/or Assassins to hide their actions throughout history. The whole reason the Animus was made was so that history could be more accurately explored, and key events that have been wiped from the records can be examined and interpreted. Many true historical facts remain, but the game makers need to take some artistic liberties or it would be impossible to make a game out of it.

As for being hard on the Templars, it should be noted that the Templars are more than just the "Knights Templar." That was their public face during the crusader era, but they existed before and after, within multiple organizations and nations. In the first game, if you recall, EVERY bad guy (whether Saracen, Knight Teutonic, Knight Hospitalier, or actual Templar) pledged loyalty to the Templar cause. The organization transcends religions and nationalities.

Calvarok
03-30-2012, 07:30 AM
Byzantines actually did mess around in the city in actual history. Maybe they weren't so well organized, but who really knows? It's a murky history.

In the Assassin's Creed universe, Templars have existed long before they were called templars. Their ideology is not based on religion, but on the idea that all humans must be controlled for the world to be a safe place. Assassin's Creed is not about exactly what history books tell you. It is about taking historical events, and working conspiracies that are actually fairly plausible into them. It's not meant to be a perfect historical reference, but each setting and time is researched extensively, and the only reason that accuracy is compromised is so that a better story can be told, or gameplay can be better.

And as another poster said, Constantine spreading Christianity was never explicitly said in the game. However, seeing as you can clearly see that churches were built during his reign... it spread because of his reign, nonetheless. AC is not about taking sides. Ottomans are not portrayed as perfect. When you finish the game, you'll realize that.

Poodle_of_Doom
03-30-2012, 07:48 AM
A few things should be noted here: a central idea of the AC franchise is that the history we're told in classrooms and textbooks may not be entirely accurate. Discrepancies between real history and AC history have been addressed, since AC1 (speech from Vidic, conversation with Lucy), as deliberate misinformation created by the Templars and/or Assassins to hide their actions throughout history. The whole reason the Animus was made was so that history could be more accurately explored, and key events that have been wiped from the records can be examined and interpreted. Many true historical facts remain, but the game makers need to take some artistic liberties or it would be impossible to make a game out of it.

As for being hard on the Templars, it should be noted that the Templars are more than just the "Knights Templar." That was their public face during the crusader era, but they existed before and after, within multiple organizations and nations. In the first game, if you recall, EVERY bad guy (whether Saracen, Knight Teutonic, Knight Hospitalier, or actual Templar) pledged loyalty to the Templar cause. The organization transcends religions and nationalities.


This is very much what I was after. Thanks for clarifying my thoughts. No matter what I tried earlier, I just couldn't get them to come out quite right. :)


Byzantines actually did mess around in the city in actual history. Maybe they weren't so well organized, but who really knows? It's a murky history.

In the Assassin's Creed universe, Templars have existed long before they were called templars. Their ideology is not based on religion, but on the idea that all humans must be controlled for the world to be a safe place. Assassin's Creed is not about exactly what history books tell you. It is about taking historical events, and working conspiracies that are actually fairly plausible into them. It's not meant to be a perfect historical reference, but each setting and time is researched extensively, and the only reason that accuracy is compromised is so that a better story can be told, or gameplay can be better.

And as another poster said, Constantine spreading Christianity was never explicitly said in the game. However, seeing as you can clearly see that churches were built during his reign... it spread because of his reign, nonetheless. AC is not about taking sides. Ottomans are not portrayed as perfect. When you finish the game, you'll realize that.

One of the things that I got from the game, and thought was really neat, was the fact that Constantipole was a multicultural nation. It readily adapted to whatever culture it absorbed, and integrated it into it's society. In that way, it was similar to America, cheifly in the sense that it was pro liberty.

pirate1802
03-30-2012, 09:26 AM
historical falsities shouldnt be put in then claimed to be true. people can have a lot of bias and let there personal feelings get in the way of facts.

Where did they claim all the stuff they showed in their game to be true?

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 09:51 AM
If we`re going to talk about Historical "Inaccuracies" be sure to get your facts straight about the game..
You dont seem to realize that the Byzantine templars are Non-religious and "inaccurately" claiming that their war in AC Revelations is about spreading Christianity..

You do not know how wrong you are..

jmk1999
03-30-2012, 09:56 AM
let's not get too heated here... keep debates civil. thanks. :)

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 09:58 AM
let's not get too heated here... keep debates civil. thanks. :)
Sorry about that..

pirate1802
03-30-2012, 09:59 AM
I went back and checked just to be sure...

http://i.imgur.com/C8oGD.jpg

This is the first thing you see in any AC game, apart from the logo.. -.-

POP1Fan
03-30-2012, 10:27 AM
I will not contest your historical knowledge, but some of the points you make are invalid.
The "spread the Christian faith by force" part is never mentioned in the game.
The Templars are NOT Christians in the AC Universe.
The fact that the Byzantines are not tolerated is IN the game.If an Ottoman group encounters a Byzantine group, they WILL fight.
Constantinople was not called Istanbul till the 19th century, but as you said, it wasan't adressed FORMALLY. From what i know (and i might be wrong) Constantinople was called Istanbul since the Ottomans occupied it but it was adressed CASSUALY (just like how Yusuf mentions it in the game).
And the slavery part, I don't understand.Are you refering to the mission where Ezio frees some men? I must say that I don't remeber the mission very well, but like you said slavery was "active" at that time so again it makes sense.
But even if all of these wouldn't make sense, remeber: "history is our playground"- Ubisoft
The game is inspired buy history, not and actul representation...if you belive that this facts are meant to portray history perfectly you might go crazy if you hear of TWCB ;).

pirate1802
03-30-2012, 12:08 PM
the game is inspired buy history, not and actul representation...if you belive that this facts are meant to portray history perfectly you might go crazy if you hear of twcb ;).

rofl!

LightRey
03-30-2012, 01:48 PM
OP, where did you get this nonsense? You're countering points not argued by the game.

De Filosoof
03-30-2012, 02:34 PM
I am a historical expert on medieval and ancient history and I can say with certainty that although I have only been playing for a few hours I have noticed that there's a lot of historical inaccuracies and misinformation in this game . I'm looking at one of the most erroneous right now, Constantine did not "spread the Christian faith by force"! Nor was his "brand of Christianity" militant at all. Christianity was a religion of convenience for him because it helped unite the empire, so this is just blatantly false. Islam was the religion that was spread by force. Those that did not convert when conquered were killed,enslaved, forcibly relocated (by death march) to distant remote areas after conquest those survivors still free, were burdened by crippling taxes.

Constantinople was not formally named Istanbul till the 19th century.

A Christian military presence ESPECIALLY a Byzantine one, would not be tolerated under any cir****tances in any Islamic city.



I know you need a antagonist group but why so hard Templars? Why not Include some other religious groups under the bad guy umbrella like in the first game. I dont suppose It should be mentioned that the Ottomans were huge slave importers and exporters. It wasnt safe to live on the coast of Europe in these times because there were Constant slaving raids as far north as Ireland and Iceland. Slavery was not widely practiced in Europe or by Christians.

I just think that maybe you should re-evaluate your historical data sources, because even though this is a game, historical falsities shouldnt be put in then claimed to be true. people can have a lot of bias and let there personal feelings get in the way of facts.

I will report back with further inaccuracies as I find them.

Thanks!

Hello:), i have 2 questions for you.

1. Are you christian?
2. Where did you get your "historical expertise" from?

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 03:16 PM
Hello:), i have 2 questions for you.

1. Are you christian?
2. Where did you get your "historical expertise" from?

1-He is definitely Christian.
2-From the Catholic Church.

frogger504
03-30-2012, 03:32 PM
1-He is definitely Christian.
2-From the Catholic Church.

M must you always take things too far?

Locopells
03-30-2012, 03:54 PM
This being the guy who told me off for nearly starting an argument over historical accuracy...

Captain Tomatoz
03-30-2012, 04:00 PM
As is mentioned in the assassin's creed 1, don't believe everything you read because history books were written by Templars.

"I believe there was a book that claimed the world was created in seven days. Best-seller too!" - Warren Vidic

Poodle_of_Doom
03-30-2012, 04:20 PM
1-He is definitely Christian.
2-From the Catholic Church.


Funny, but not cool.

LightRey
03-30-2012, 04:43 PM
As is mentioned in the assassin's creed 1, don't believe everything you read because history books were written by Templars.

"I believe there was a book that claimed the world was created in seven days. Best-seller too!" - Warren Vidic
Some history books were. Not all. The Templars aren't responsible for the historical knowledge of the world. They just fabricated parts here and there to suit their purposes.

Lord_Roose
03-30-2012, 04:47 PM
I am a historical expert on medieval and ancient history...Islam was the religion that was spread by force. Those that did not convert when conquered were killed,enslaved, forcibly relocated (by death march) to distant remote areas after conquest those survivors still free, were burdened by crippling taxes.

I was prompted to make my first post by these preposterous falsehoods. I don't know what your 'expert' credentials are. I can't claim to be a historian, but I've been taking college courses on Middle Eastern history for the better part of a year now, so I'd like to think that I know something.

The early Muslim conquests were mostly completed by Umar and Uthman. In a remarkably short period of time, they took over Iraq, Greater Syria, Iran, Egypt, and more from the ailing Byzantine and Sasanian Empires. They absolutely did not force convert the population. You get one thing right in that there was a tax leveled on non-believers, but it wasn't exactly crippling. The Caliphate was filled with Jewish and Christian communities, many of which did better under the new regime than they had under the older empires. During this time period, there was still a dispute among Muslims over whether the new religion should encompass everyone or be for Arabs only. Many people treated new converts with suspicion. To an extent, Christians and Jews were second class citizens, but it was nowhere near as bad as you seem to imply. By the standards of Empires which conquer in 'God's name' the Muslims were pretty tame and tolerant. Later, early in the Abbasid Caliphate, there's actually a famous story (which may or may not be true) relating to the founding of Baghdad. Al-Mansur, the Caliph, found a spot of land he thought would be perfect, but it was occupied by a Christian monastery. If the Muslims had behaved as you imply, the Caliph would have just ejected them and built his new capital. But the story goes that he instead got off his horse and haggled with the Monks until they agreed on a price. Even if this story isn't true, the fact that it's considered plausible and has survived to this day is a testament to the fact that the Muslim treatment of Christians really wasn't that bad (by the standards of the age).

The Ottoman conquests, more relevant to this topic perhaps, were also rather tolerant towards minorities. Have you heard of the 'Millet' system? The Ottomans let their Jewish and Christian minorities pretty much govern themselves. Millets were only abolished after it became clear that the European powers were manipulating them to their advantage. There's another colonel of truth in your story when you bring up slavery. The Ottomans had a system called the 'devshirme' where some Christians from the provinces were enslaved at a young age and trained in the ways of state. This wasn't exactly slavery in the way Americans usually think of it. For years, most of the Ottoman Grand Viziers, less powerful only than the Sultan himself, came from this system. Families would actually be known to try and arrange for their kid to be taken away, because these 'slaves' would actually end up running the Empire.

It seems pretty obvious that you're not an expert on medieval history.

LightRey
03-30-2012, 04:55 PM
I was prompted to make my first post by these preposterous falsehoods. I don't know what your 'expert' credentials are. I can't claim to be a historian, but I've been taking college courses on Middle Eastern history for the better part of a year now, so I'd like to think that I know something.

The early Muslim conquests were mostly completed by Umar and Uthman. In a remarkably short period of time, they took over Iraq, Greater Syria, Iran, Egypt, and more from the ailing Byzantine and Sasanian Empires. They absolutely did not force convert the population. You get one thing right in that there was a tax leveled on non-believers, but it wasn't exactly crippling. The Caliphate was filled with Jewish and Christian communities, many of which did better under the new regime than they had under the older empires. During this time period, there was still a dispute among Muslims over whether the new religion should encompass everyone or be for Arabs only. Many people treated new converts with suspicion. To an extent, Christians and Jews were second class citizens, but it was nowhere near as bad as you seem to imply. By the standards of Empires which conquer in 'God's name' the Muslims were pretty tame and tolerant. Later, early in the Abbasid Caliphate, there's actually a famous story (which may or may not be true) relating to the founding of Baghdad. Al-Ma'mun, the Caliph, found a spot of land he thought would be perfect, but it was occupied by a Christian monastery. If the Muslims had behaved as you imply, the Caliph would have just ejected them and built his new capital. But the story goes that he instead got off his horse and haggled with the Monks until they agreed on a price. Even if this story isn't true, the fact that it's considered plausible and has survived to this day is a testament to the fact that the Muslim treatment of Christians really wasn't that bad (by the standards of the age).

The Ottoman conquests, more relevant to this topic perhaps, were also rather tolerant towards minorities. Have you heard of the 'Millet' system? The Ottomans let their Jewish and Christian minorities pretty much govern themselves. Millets were only abolished after it became clear that the European powers were manipulating them to their advantage. There's another colonel of truth in your story when you bring up slavery. The Ottomans had a system called the 'devshirme' where some Christians from the provinces were enslaved at a young age and trained in the ways of state. This wasn't exactly slavery in the way Americans usually think of it. For years, most of the Ottoman Grand Viziers, less powerful only than the Sultan himself, came from this system. Families would actually be known to try and arrange for their kid to be taken away, because these 'slaves' would actually end up running the Empire.

It seems pretty obvious that you're not an expert on medieval history.
Great post. Very informative. It also seems to agree with the ACR database (on the parts that are actually mentioned in the database of course). You earned yourself an internet.
http://www.nastyhobbit.org/data/media/2/free-internet-coupon.jpg

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 04:58 PM
I was prompted to make my first post by these preposterous falsehoods. I don't know what your 'expert' credentials are. I can't claim to be a historian, but I've been taking college courses on Middle Eastern history for the better part of a year now, so I'd like to think that I know something.

The early Muslim conquests were mostly completed by Umar and Uthman. In a remarkably short period of time, they took over Iraq, Greater Syria, Iran, Egypt, and more from the ailing Byzantine and Sasanian Empires. They absolutely did not force convert the population. You get one thing right in that there was a tax leveled on non-believers, but it wasn't exactly crippling. The Caliphate was filled with Jewish and Christian communities, many of which did better under the new regime than they had under the older empires. During this time period, there was still a dispute among Muslims over whether the new religion should encompass everyone or be for Arabs only. Many people treated new converts with suspicion. To an extent, Christians and Jews were second class citizens, but it was nowhere near as bad as you seem to imply. By the standards of Empires which conquer in 'God's name' the Muslims were pretty tame and tolerant. Later, early in the Abbasid Caliphate, there's actually a famous story (which may or may not be true) relating to the founding of Baghdad. Al-Ma'mun, the Caliph, found a spot of land he thought would be perfect, but it was occupied by a Christian monastery. If the Muslims had behaved as you imply, the Caliph would have just ejected them and built his new capital. But the story goes that he instead got off his horse and haggled with the Monks until they agreed on a price. Even if this story isn't true, the fact that it's considered plausible and has survived to this day is a testament to the fact that the Muslim treatment of Christians really wasn't that bad (by the standards of the age).

The Ottoman conquests, more relevant to this topic perhaps, were also rather tolerant towards minorities. Have you heard of the 'Millet' system? The Ottomans let their Jewish and Christian minorities pretty much govern themselves. Millets were only abolished after it became clear that the European powers were manipulating them to their advantage. There's another colonel of truth in your story when you bring up slavery. The Ottomans had a system called the 'devshirme' where some Christians from the provinces were enslaved at a young age and trained in the ways of state. This wasn't exactly slavery in the way Americans usually think of it. For years, most of the Ottoman Grand Viziers, less powerful only than the Sultan himself, came from this system. Families would actually be known to try and arrange for their kid to be taken away, because these 'slaves' would actually end up running the Empire.

It seems pretty obvious that you're not an expert on medieval history.
This all is very true and accurate..
and I humbly apologize if I offended any one with my last post here..

Captain Tomatoz
03-30-2012, 05:14 PM
Some history books were. Not all. The Templars aren't responsible for the historical knowledge of the world. They just fabricated parts here and there to suit their purposes.

Yeah that's what I meant sorry :D. I just meant that when talking about the historical accuracy of the AC universe, you should remember that not everything happened (in the game universe) as you may have learnt. It is a work of fiction after all :D

LightRey
03-30-2012, 05:16 PM
Yeah that's what I meant sorry :D. I just meant that when talking about the historical accuracy of the AC universe, you should remember that not everything happened (in the game universe) as you may have learnt. It is a work of fiction after all :D
Ah good. Yes, that is very true. Vidic is quite clear on the matter in AC1.

POP1Fan
03-30-2012, 05:36 PM
rofl!

I will agree...I rushed that last sentence :p

pacmanate
03-30-2012, 06:06 PM
This all is very true and accurate..
and I humbly apologize if I offended any one with my last post here..

Well you offended me and I'm asian.

DylanJosh9
03-30-2012, 06:31 PM
No reply from OP yet

Lord_Roose
03-30-2012, 06:42 PM
I made a quick edit to my post when I realized I'd made a small mistake, but since I've been quoted a couple times I thought I would clarify this with a second post.

The story I related about haggling with the monks supposedly happened with al-Mansur, not al-Ma'mun (two separate Caliphs). I had mixed up the names. Hopefully, this clarification will prevent the OP from trying to discredit my post based on one wrong name.

Lightrey, thank you for the most generous gift of the Internet. I will use it wisely, and not at all utilize it to satisfy my megalomaniac tendencies.

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 07:20 PM
I made a quick edit to my post when I realized I'd made a small mistake, but since I've been quoted a couple times I thought I would clarify this with a second post.

The story I related about haggling with the monks supposedly happened with al-Mansur, not al-Ma'mun (two separate Caliphs). I had mixed up the names. Hopefully, this clarification will prevent the OP from trying to discredit my post based on one wrong name.

Lightrey, thank you for the most generous gift of the Internet. I will use it wisely, and not at all utilize it to satisfy my megalomaniac tendencies.
I would also like to mention a historical record similar to this involving Umar..
His top general, Amr bin el Uss, had arranged to take a piece of land from a christian woman. The woman sent a letter to the Caliph detailing Amr`s plans, this infuriated Umar greatly and he had Amr questioned about this and demanded he return the land to the woman..
Also worth mentioning was when The Jews were ejected from Portugal by the king, Sultan Beyazid welcomed and sheltered them in Constantinople..

rileypoole1234
03-30-2012, 07:55 PM
Ubi does say in the beginning of the game "This work of fiction was..." They don't need to make every single thing historically accurate.

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 08:02 PM
Ubi does say in the beginning of the game "This work of fiction was..." They don't need to make every single thing historically accurate.
Its not the game..
Its the OP who`s historically inaccurate..

Poodle_of_Doom
03-30-2012, 08:04 PM
No reply from OP yet

Of course not. At this point, I suspect it would be unwise of him to return to this thread. It's better left to us, and abandoned by him.


Ubi does say in the beginning of the game "This work of fiction was..." They don't need to make every single thing historically accurate.

Well, not only that, but we should be thankful that they have made so much historically accurate.

LightRey
03-30-2012, 08:04 PM
I made a quick edit to my post when I realized I'd made a small mistake, but since I've been quoted a couple times I thought I would clarify this with a second post.

The story I related about haggling with the monks supposedly happened with al-Mansur, not al-Ma'mun (two separate Caliphs). I had mixed up the names. Hopefully, this clarification will prevent the OP from trying to discredit my post based on one wrong name.

Lightrey, thank you for the most generous gift of the Internet. I will use it wisely, and not at all utilize it to satisfy my megalomaniac tendencies.
Use it wisely...

rileypoole1234
03-30-2012, 08:07 PM
Its not the game..
Its the OP who`s historically inaccurate..


Well yes that too... But I was just mentioning that even if there was something that's wrong, it doesn't matter anyway.

Lord_Roose
03-30-2012, 08:20 PM
I would also like to mention a historical record similar to this involving Umar..
His top general, Amr bin el Uss, had arranged to take a piece of land from a christian woman. The woman sent a letter to the Caliph detailing Amr`s plans, this infuriated Umar greatly and he had Amr questioned about this and demanded he return the land to the woman..
Also worth mentioning was when The Jews were ejected from Portugal by the king, Sultan Beyazid welcomed and sheltered them in Constantinople..
Good stories, thanks for relating them. The OP's post is so frustrating because it seems to be influenced by a Modern view of Islam that gives disproportionate weight to radicals. It's refreshing to learn the actual history and see how moderately behaved the great Muslim Empires could be. The OP's 'expert' credentials probably consist of being Rick Santorum's historical adviser.

The Muslim settings, IMO, have been one of the cooler and more unique aspects of the franchise. For the most part UBI handles it pretty well (some exceptions, but that's to be expected).

jmk1999
03-30-2012, 08:23 PM
1-He is definitely Christian.
2-From the Catholic Church.
this comment is unacceptable and totally offensive. i'm catholic... care to take this conversation further? try me and see what happens.

religious discussion, particularly of a hostile nature, has no part on these forums. same with political discussions. it ends here.

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 08:25 PM
this comment is unacceptable and totally offensive. i'm catholic... care to take this conversation further? try me and see what happens.

religious discussion, particularly of a hostile nature, has no part on these forums. same with political discussions. it ends here.
Did you miss the part where I apologized ?

Poodle_of_Doom
03-30-2012, 08:29 PM
this comment is unacceptable and totally offensive. i'm catholic... care to take this conversation further? try me and see what happens.

religious discussion, particularly of a hostile nature, has no part on these forums. same with political discussions. it ends here.

Hey,... hold up. Where do you get off inciting further issues here? I don't agree with his comments either. In fact, they were extremely inappropriate. But it's just a wrong of you to come up in here with a comment like that, that seemingly furthers the issue at hand, and then throw your clout behind it. This seems overly incitant to me, and should be avoided by a person in your position. Wouldn't it have been better to close the thread, or remove the post?

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 08:31 PM
Hey,... hold up. Where do you get off inciting further issues here? I don't agree with his comments either. In fact, they were extremely inappropriate. But it's just a wrong of you to come up in here with a comment like that, that seeming furthers the issue at hand, and then throw your clout behind it. This seems overly incitant to me, and should be avoided by a person in your position. Wouldn't it have been better to close the thread, or remove the post?
Not to mention that I actually apologized..
He has the right to be offended, though..

Poodle_of_Doom
03-30-2012, 08:36 PM
Not to mention that I actually apologized..
He has the right to be offended, though..

I'm not arguing his having taken offense to the situation. What I take offense at is a Mod that will come in here, only to further a conflict as best as I can tell, only to threaten a ban if you say boo. My personal opinion is that he should of removed the post, closed the thread, and dealt with you behind close doors in a professional mannor, or any combination there of, instead of handling it the way he did. What he did right there is of no service to this forum, and only provocates an already bad situation.

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 08:38 PM
I'm not arguing his having taken offense to the situation. What I take offense at is a Mod that will come in here, only to further a conflict as best as I can tell, only to threaten a ban if you say boo. My personal opinion is that he should of removed the post, closed the thread, and dealt with you behind close doors in a professional mannor, or any combination there of, instead of handling it the way he did. What he did right there is of no service to this forum, and only provocates an already bad situation.
It was my fault to start with..
My brash and not-thoroughly-thought-out post was the reason for all of this and I apologized for it..
looking back at it though... You raise some valid points..

Poodle_of_Doom
03-30-2012, 09:06 PM
It was my fault to start with..
My brash and not-thoroughly-thought-out post was the reason for all of this and I apologized for it..
looking back at it though... You raise some valid points..

As much as I appreciate validation, it's not necessary here. This has been handeled inappropriately.

frogger504
03-30-2012, 09:10 PM
As much as I appreciate validation, it's not necessary here. This has been handeled inappropriately.

Not really, he was way out of hand and a Mod halted him. A few pages later you won't let it go.

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 09:13 PM
Not really, he was way out of hand and a Mod halted him. A few pages later you won't let it go.
I was already halted and I apologized..
It was about to be buried when dom came and brought it back up..

pacmanate
03-30-2012, 09:24 PM
AWw you guys are cute sorting this out

Assassin_M
03-30-2012, 09:26 PM
AWw you guys are cute sorting this out
Im flattered..

Dteved898
03-31-2012, 02:39 AM
Wow... I don't know what to say. But I'll start here: At this point, you should be aware of the fact that the Knights Templar have been seperated from Christianity within the game. Christianity is not being targeted here.

Second of all, I'm concerned at the fact that you think they implied that Constantine was forceablely spreading any sort of religion. I personally don't recall that being included in the game anywhere, and would love for you to point out where that was.

Third off, the game was never reported to be historically accurate. They simply said that it was accurate when they had reference materials supporting it. For what it's worth, I'd much rather believe Ubisoft to believing you. Ubisoft has an entire team dedicated to nothing more than historical accuracies, that include, but are not limited to, historians, fact checkers, researchers, and many other individuals of prestige.

Go t the Database I under people and then chose Byzantines. If theyre not trying to teach you about the period then why is it there? there are many true things in there which is why I question it why mix truths with an obvious falsehood dont get in a twist no offense intended

Dteved898
03-31-2012, 02:45 AM
Byzantines actually did mess around in the city in actual history. Maybe they weren't so well organized, but who really knows? It's a murky history.

In the Assassin's Creed universe, Templars have existed long before they were called templars. Their ideology is not based on religion, but on the idea that all humans must be controlled for the world to be a safe place. Assassin's Creed is not about exactly what history books tell you. It is about taking historical events, and working conspiracies that are actually fairly plausible into them. It's not meant to be a perfect historical reference, but each setting and time is researched extensively, and the only reason that accuracy is compromised is so that a better story can be told, or gameplay can be better.




And as another poster said, Constantine spreading Christianity was never explicitly said in the game. However, seeing as you can clearly see that churches were built during his reign... it spread because of his reign, nonetheless. AC is not about taking sides. Ottomans are not portrayed as perfect. When you finish the game, you'll realize that.

but it was in The data base

Dteved898
03-31-2012, 02:52 AM
Ok Im not gonna go through every response and say it was in the Database, Im aware the story is fictional but the data base does seem to try to convey facts about the period and like I said above there were many truths in the description but but the part about Constantine is dead wrong. and guys....... Im not trying to hurt anybodys feelings ok

Dteved898
03-31-2012, 03:01 AM
[QUOTE=thijs_bijlsma;8209154]Hello:), i have 2 questions for you.

1. Are you christian? No I'm a Satanist (hail Satan)
2. Where did you get your "historical expertise" from?I have a University degree in History I have done extensive research on the Roman Empire ( which the Byzantine Empire is the successor to Roman Empire) and I am an expert in Byzantine studies and wrote a thesis on the Final Siege Of Constantinople in 1453. Ive read all the known works and accounts by participants on both sides.

Just a quick note: no offense or showboating intended friend=)

smengler
03-31-2012, 03:10 AM
1. Are you christian? No I'm a Satanist (hail Satan)

You're not supposed to tell people! They might figure out the connection between us and the templars! We can't blow our cover now, especially when our plans will be completed in only a few months. Btw, is the satellite almost ready?

Dteved898
03-31-2012, 03:16 AM
I agree that they were tolerant as in they wouldnt "kill everyone" but it was standard policy to enslave women and children and kill all men that could not be ransomed. I am aware of the child slaves they took from the non muslim conquered people but taking children away from there parents and castrating them or creating a slave army is barbaric no mater what the purpose. The taxes were crippiling over time it was the taxes that converted more people than fear. but this argument really gets away from my main point I wanted to convey that theres a lot of missed opportunity for bad guys. And yes I am an expert on ancient and medieval history...I mean no offense by any of the statements

Dteved898
03-31-2012, 03:20 AM
You're not supposed to tell people! They might figure out the connection between us and the templars! We can't blow our cover now, especially when our plans will be completed in only a few months. Btw, is the satellite almost ready? **** your right..... Quickly to the Satanmobile!

pirate1802
03-31-2012, 03:51 AM
Well the database is not there to show historical facts, its there to help Desmond (the guy inside the Animus),and the player know more about the game world. You might even see some entries addressed directly to Desmond. Heck the database even contains entry about Altair, Ezio and the Templars, doesnt mean they become real. :P

Poodle_of_Doom
03-31-2012, 06:03 AM
]I was already halted and I apologized..
It was about to be buried when dom came and brought it back up..

Not only that, but he further instigated the situation. I truly believe that there was a better way to handle this.



Go t the Database I under people and then chose Byzantines. If theyre not trying to teach you about the period then why is it there? there are many true things in there which is why I question it why mix truths with an obvious falsehood dont get in a twist no offense intended

You act as if your watching Sesame Street. For the love of God, understand, this is fiction based on fact.

deadly_thought
03-31-2012, 06:27 AM
I was prompted to make my first post by these preposterous falsehoods. I don't know what your 'expert' credentials are. I can't claim to be a historian, but I've been taking college courses on Middle Eastern history for the better part of a year now, so I'd like to think that I know something.

The early Muslim conquests were mostly completed by Umar and Uthman. In a remarkably short period of time, they took over Iraq, Greater Syria, Iran, Egypt, and more from the ailing Byzantine and Sasanian Empires. They absolutely did not force convert the population. You get one thing right in that there was a tax leveled on non-believers, but it wasn't exactly crippling. The Caliphate was filled with Jewish and Christian communities, many of which did better under the new regime than they had under the older empires. During this time period, there was still a dispute among Muslims over whether the new religion should encompass everyone or be for Arabs only. Many people treated new converts with suspicion. To an extent, Christians and Jews were second class citizens, but it was nowhere near as bad as you seem to imply. By the standards of Empires which conquer in 'God's name' the Muslims were pretty tame and tolerant. Later, early in the Abbasid Caliphate, there's actually a famous story (which may or may not be true) relating to the founding of Baghdad. Al-Mansur, the Caliph, found a spot of land he thought would be perfect, but it was occupied by a Christian monastery. If the Muslims had behaved as you imply, the Caliph would have just ejected them and built his new capital. But the story goes that he instead got off his horse and haggled with the Monks until they agreed on a price. Even if this story isn't true, the fact that it's considered plausible and has survived to this day is a testament to the fact that the Muslim treatment of Christians really wasn't that bad (by the standards of the age).

The Ottoman conquests, more relevant to this topic perhaps, were also rather tolerant towards minorities. Have you heard of the 'Millet' system? The Ottomans let their Jewish and Christian minorities pretty much govern themselves. Millets were only abolished after it became clear that the European powers were manipulating them to their advantage. There's another colonel of truth in your story when you bring up slavery. The Ottomans had a system called the 'devshirme' where some Christians from the provinces were enslaved at a young age and trained in the ways of state. This wasn't exactly slavery in the way Americans usually think of it. For years, most of the Ottoman Grand Viziers, less powerful only than the Sultan himself, came from this system. Families would actually be known to try and arrange for their kid to be taken away, because these 'slaves' would actually end up running the Empire.

It seems pretty obvious that you're not an expert on medieval history.

well doesnt this make conquest sound like a nice little picnic fact is when the ottomans took over the middle east they embarked on a cultural and religious genecide that didnt come to an end until just after WW1 (the reason there are dark gypsies in europe is because the ottomans killed them on sight)

entire tribes religious faiths communities and cultures were wiped out the tax you refer to is paid by the DIMMI (those who believe in the correct god through a false faith and cannot legally be killed unlike hindus for example who can be slaughtered) it is designed to be crippling in order to force conversion those who refuse to pay the tax can be killed but paying the tax would give you the same status as a cow (you cant be killed because your the govts property like a cow is to a farmer)

as far as your pleasant story about a caliph buying a monastery i think but im not sure (will have a look in a bit) that under islamic law you cant take property from a dimmi who pays his taxes one that doesnt on the other hand or someone who is considered an infidel is fair game and completely legal

to say that it was all flowers and candy is a complete falsehood i suggest you spend another year studying the middle east more specifically the ottoman empire itself

EDIT: forgot to mention that islam was never an arab only religion it was monotheistic from inception and mohammed himself is quoted as saying "the god of the arabs is the god of the jews" (the two tribes of abraham) wich is why christians and jews who submit to islamic rule cannot be killed under islamic law

LightRey
03-31-2012, 11:20 AM
1. Are you christian? No I'm a Satanist (hail Satan)
2. Where did you get your "historical expertise" from?I have a University degree in History I have done extensive research on the Roman Empire ( which the Byzantine Empire is the successor to Roman Empire) and I am an expert in Byzantine studies and wrote a thesis on the Final Siege Of Constantinople in 1453. Ive read all the known works and accounts by participants on both sides.

Just a quick note: no offense or showboating intended friend=)
I think the main flaw in your theory is that you seem to think that the Byzantines/Templars in this game are Christians. This is completely untrue. The Byzantines were basically just an organization focused on restoring the old regime under Manuel's rule. Their goals were purely political, not religious and as shown by the game many important Byzantines were in fact not Christian. They're not called Byzantines because they themselves are remnants of the Byzantine empire (which it wasn't even called at the time). They're called Byzantines because they wanted the old regime back. We already know the Templars weren't (necessarily) religious at all. Even Templars who irl known to have been devout Christians are known in AC to have been atheists.

Jexx21
03-31-2012, 04:10 PM
I'm fairly sure that any Templar who isn't athiest hides the fact that he isn't because they would probably get shot down by their peers (at least in Abstergo).

OriginalMiles
03-31-2012, 08:04 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RFZrzg62Zj0

Lord_Roose
03-31-2012, 09:19 PM
well doesnt this make conquest sound like a nice little picnic fact is when the ottomans took over the middle east they embarked on a cultural and religious genecide that didnt come to an end until just after WW1 (the reason there are dark gypsies in europe is because the ottomans killed them on sight)

entire tribes religious faiths communities and cultures were wiped out the tax you refer to is paid by the DIMMI (those who believe in the correct god through a false faith and cannot legally be killed unlike hindus for example who can be slaughtered) it is designed to be crippling in order to force conversion those who refuse to pay the tax can be killed but paying the tax would give you the same status as a cow (you cant be killed because your the govts property like a cow is to a farmer)

as far as your pleasant story about a caliph buying a monastery i think but im not sure (will have a look in a bit) that under islamic law you cant take property from a dimmi who pays his taxes one that doesnt on the other hand or someone who is considered an infidel is fair game and completely legal

to say that it was all flowers and candy is a complete falsehood i suggest you spend another year studying the middle east more specifically the ottoman empire itself

EDIT: forgot to mention that islam was never an arab only religion it was monotheistic from inception and mohammed himself is quoted as saying "the god of the arabs is the god of the jews" (the two tribes of abraham) wich is why christians and jews who submit to islamic rule cannot be killed under islamic law
I never said it was an Arab only religion. I said there was a 'dispute' over whether it should be an Arab only religion. No one can day deny that in its early days the vast majority of Muslims were Arab, and when they went ahead with the conquests they weren't over-eager to convert people. Conversion of the masses was a much slower process than the OP implies when he says that there was forced conversion. Some rulers opposed new converts on the simple basis that less people would be paying that tax.

Can you provide some examples of the tribes and religious communities which you say were wiped out? From what I recall, the Muslims could be pretty harsh on Pagans but were generally more tolerant of Christians and Jews as fellow monotheists. Yes there was some oppression, but the OP's claim is simply not true.

Also, to say that the Ottomans embarked on a campaign of cultural and religious genocide is absurd. If this is true, then how do you explain the Millets? Yes, there was the Armenian genocide, but this thread is only really concerned with the early Ottoman empire, as that's what's relevant to AC. Please provide more detail to back up your broad claims.

AdamXEve
03-31-2012, 10:37 PM
Arguing opinions of a fictional universe.

LightRey
03-31-2012, 10:41 PM
Arguing opinions of a fictional universe.
That's what the entire forum is about.

pacmanate
03-31-2012, 10:53 PM
That's what the entire forum is about.

No it's not what are you smoking :@

Poodle_of_Doom
04-01-2012, 06:42 AM
Arguing opinions of a fictional universe.


Personally, I'd prefer to see more contributed to the conversation at hand, and fewer one liners thrown in.

Assassin_M
04-01-2012, 08:30 AM
Arguing opinions of a fictional universe.
This is apparently what I signed up for..

invinoverit2016
06-05-2016, 06:14 PM
Apparently those who control the war polices, economic polcies, social polices and have the wealth
contribute to major decision in world arena as neconservatives https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2uMC-XEhX4
Wall street corporate and many neoliberals economist, are templars not j.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw9EhjyU3JU

Not only but during all the revolutions again in Russia
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/the_czars_and_the_jews/
against czars and commuted all kind of injustice
http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/
known as Bolshevistic where templars not j.
The robbing of Russia by privatization after the fall by irks of j economist who sold to their own pals who today are multi billionaires in russia
ww.softpanorama.org/Skeptics/Pseudoscience/harvard_mafia.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatization_in_Russia


Who made revolutions in France to get rid of the royalties so they would control wealth themeself?
http://www.lovethetruth.com/books/pawns/03.htm


Who has contributed to almost the same history in England which now is in ruins and the entire economy is dependent from finical sector? In germany and so many other countries?
Who controls America fate?

Who controls london stock exchange , who control deutche bursa?

Who made decision in imf ?
http://www.avaresearch.com/articles/1062/the-rape-of-greece-by-jewish-bankers.html


who controls Hollywood?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVmiAR5nvJE
http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Their-Own-Invented-Hollywood/dp/0385265573

WHo makes decision in America?
https://thezog.wordpress.com



Is all templars, illuminati aliens and other bullsh... but never never the j
Ands templars have the biggest lobby group known as aipac in international arena not the j.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee


Who has always tried to get rid of Christian values and Christianity and lobbied constantly and have constantly has pushed revolution in name of their gains and in gains of their wealth while puting everyone else under? Is templars not the j.


Whop constantly pushes degeneration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VggFao85vTs

Who financed marxism?
http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/bolshies.html


WHo incorportated and opened Frankfurt school of degeneration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

Who incorporated Marxism ,Frankfurt school, in america, lobby Wars polices kowns as neoconseravtives policies, are heavy allined with neoliberal wall street
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Intellectuals


Who are the neoliberals?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism


Who lobbyists to constantly open borders in europe and usa while in israeal exempt form their own ********?


Conquer[ unite on ******** and push propaganda] while divide the majority.

This game is junk and pushes bullshi and misinformation and defender of a status qou with missinformation.
I can go on every ******** they misinterpret in all the series from French revolution, england revolution , Russian revolution, India, mascares in m iddle east since dawn of times till now, previously and so many others and now their grip on America politics and so on.Is it templars who have this powers, is it aliens, Illuminati and ******** and nonsense or is the jws?
WHo has been kicked by hundred of countries the most due to their committed injustice , manipulation of people, degradation of people and trying to gain the wealth by any means?

invinoverit2016
06-05-2016, 07:28 PM
Why they attacking Syria which is a big supporter of Palestine?
http://worldprayer.org.uk/pa-worldwide/item/3967-syria-defender-of-palestinians

Who is toping regimes again by proxy wars?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-proposes-500-million-to-aid-syrian-rebels-1403813486
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-readies-plan-b-to-arm-syria-rebels-1460509400

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/12/politics/syria-arming-rebels/


WHo sponsors groups who joined isis
http://english.aawsat.com/2014/12/article55339780
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/amnesty-international-isis-weapons-u-s-/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-airdrops-50-tonnes-of-weapons-to-new-syrian-rebel-coalition-a6692126.html
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/isis-and-us-backed-moderate-rebels-join-forces-attack-syrian-army-aleppo/ri12990

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/08/us-backed-moderate-free-syrian-army-factions-join-islamic-state-terror-group/

https://www.sott.net/article/312774-ISIS-and-US-backed-moderate-rebels-join-forces-and-attack-Syrian-Army-in-Southeastern-Aleppo


Who buys the oil of isis? Friends?
http://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-asia/240-israel-isis-oil.html
http://ig.ft.com/sites/2015/isis-oil/
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/whos-buying-isis-oil

http://www.mintpressnews.com/mark-zuckerberg-cant-believe-india-isnt-grateful-for-facebooks-free-internet/212359/



Who finances them
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/world/middleeast/us-relies-heavily-on-saudi-money-to-support-syrian-rebels.html?_r=0
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-crisis-turkey-and-saudi-arabia-shock-western-countries-by-supporting-anti-assad-jihadists-10242747.html
http://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-syrian-rebels-keeping-druze-safe-in-exchange-for-israeli-aid/



Who treats them in hospitals
https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/11/exclusive-israel-is-tending-to-wounded-syrian-rebels/
http://journal-neo.org/2014/12/01/america-s-real-ties-to-isis/


Who has constantly lobbied for war in Iraq Afghanistan, Libya?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2uMC-XEhX4



Itys all the templars, illuminati and other bs but never of course not the j



Who attacked the biggest Muslim cause know as Palestinians in yamuck in Syria ?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/middleeast/syria-yarmouk-isis-shubert/

http://www.juancole.com/2015/09/israels-refugee-yarmouk.html

Shills of new world order or should i say j world order.


Who has created the biggest humanitarian criss in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and promotes opening borders in Europe while being exempt in their countries?

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syrian-refugees-israel-20150906-story.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/world/middleeast/netanyahu-rejects-calls-to-accept-syrian-refugees.html
http://www.euronews.com/2015/09/30/why-aren-t-rich-gulf-states-welcoming-syrian-refugeesor-are-they/



Its all templars obviously. Its Illuminati and aliens who enforce their vision in America polices at world stage, who have their Saudis petrodollars pals get involved, and their dogs in turkey doing their biddings. It easy enforcing propganda and missinformation by ******** in a game.

ERICATHERINE
06-05-2016, 07:47 PM
Why they attacking Syria which is a big supporter of Palestine?
http://worldprayer.org.uk/pa-worldwide/item/3967-syria-defender-of-palestinians

Who is toping regimes again by proxy wars?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-proposes-500-million-to-aid-syrian-rebels-1403813486
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-readies-plan-b-to-arm-syria-rebels-1460509400

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/12/politics/syria-arming-rebels/


WHo sponsors groups who joined isis
http://english.aawsat.com/2014/12/article55339780
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/amnesty-international-isis-weapons-u-s-/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-airdrops-50-tonnes-of-weapons-to-new-syrian-rebel-coalition-a6692126.html
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/isis-and-us-backed-moderate-rebels-join-forces-attack-syrian-army-aleppo/ri12990

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/08/us-backed-moderate-free-syrian-army-factions-join-islamic-state-terror-group/

https://www.sott.net/article/312774-ISIS-and-US-backed-moderate-rebels-join-forces-and-attack-Syrian-Army-in-Southeastern-Aleppo


Who buys the oil of isis? Friends?
http://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-asia/240-israel-isis-oil.html
http://ig.ft.com/sites/2015/isis-oil/
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/whos-buying-isis-oil

http://www.mintpressnews.com/mark-zuckerberg-cant-believe-india-isnt-grateful-for-facebooks-free-internet/212359/



Who finances them
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/world/middleeast/us-relies-heavily-on-saudi-money-to-support-syrian-rebels.html?_r=0
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-crisis-turkey-and-saudi-arabia-shock-western-countries-by-supporting-anti-assad-jihadists-10242747.html
http://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-syrian-rebels-keeping-druze-safe-in-exchange-for-israeli-aid/



Who treats them in hospitals
https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/11/exclusive-israel-is-tending-to-wounded-syrian-rebels/
http://journal-neo.org/2014/12/01/america-s-real-ties-to-isis/


Who has constantly lobbied for war in Iraq Afghanistan, Libya?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2uMC-XEhX4



Itys all the templars, illuminati and other bs but never of course not the j



Who attacked the biggest Muslim cause know as Palestinians in yamuck in Syria ?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/middleeast/syria-yarmouk-isis-shubert/

http://www.juancole.com/2015/09/israels-refugee-yarmouk.html

Shills of new world order or should i say j world order.


Who has created the biggest humanitarian criss in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and promotes opening borders in Europe whil being exempt in their countries?

Ok, who revived a thread based on people arguing with each other? :rolleyes:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uhrdq1N9sgQ

JamesFaith007
06-05-2016, 09:45 PM
Ah, trollink.

It's quite long since I saw this kind of internet troll last time.

ze_topazio
06-05-2016, 10:16 PM
Apparently those who control the war polices, economic polcies, social polices and have the wealth
contribute to major decision in world arena as neconservatives https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2uMC-XEhX4
Wall street corporate and many neoliberals economist, are templars not j.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zw9EhjyU3JU

Not only but during all the revolutions again in Russia
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/the_czars_and_the_jews/
against czars and commuted all kind of injustice
http://gulaghistory.org/nps/onlineexhibit/stalin/
known as Bolshevistic where templars not j.
The robbing of Russia by privatization after the fall by irks of j economist who sold to their own pals who today are multi billionaires in russia
ww.softpanorama.org/Skeptics/Pseudoscience/harvard_mafia.shtml
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privatization_in_Russia


Who made revolutions in France to get rid of the royalties so they would control wealth themeself?
http://www.lovethetruth.com/books/pawns/03.htm


Who has contributed to almost the same history in England which now is in ruins and the entire economy is dependent from finical sector? In germany and so many other countries?
Who controls America fate?

Who controls london stock exchange , who control deutche bursa?

Who made decision in imf ?
http://www.avaresearch.com/articles/1062/the-rape-of-greece-by-jewish-bankers.html


who controls Hollywood?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVmiAR5nvJE
http://www.amazon.com/Empire-Their-Own-Invented-Hollywood/dp/0385265573

WHo makes decision in America?
https://thezog.wordpress.com



Is all templars, illuminati aliens and other bullsh... but never never the j
Ands templars have the biggest lobby group known as aipac in international arena not the j.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Israel_Public_Affairs_Committee


Who has always tried to get rid of Christian values and Christianity and lobbied constantly and have constantly has pushed revolution in name of their gains and in gains of their wealth while puting everyone else under? Is templars not the j.


Whop constantly pushes degeneration
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VggFao85vTs

Who financed marxism?
http://www.heretical.com/miscellx/bolshies.html


WHo incorportated and opened Frankfurt school of degeneration
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frankfurt_School

Who incorporated Marxism ,Frankfurt school, in america, lobby Wars polices kowns as neoconseravtives policies, are heavy allined with neoliberal wall street
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_New_York_Intellectuals


Who are the neoliberals?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoliberalism


Who lobbyists to constantly open borders in europe and usa while in israeal exempt form their own ********?


Conquer[ unite on ******** and push propaganda] while divide the majority.

This game is junk and pushes bullshi and misinformation and defender of a status qou with missinformation.
I can go on every ******** they misinterpret in all the series from French revolution, england revolution , Russian revolution, India, mascares in m iddle east since dawn of times till now, previously and so many others and now their grip on America politics and so on.Is it templars who have this powers, is it aliens, Illuminati and ******** and nonsense or is the jws?
WHo has been kicked by hundred of countries the most due to their committed injustice , manipulation of people, degradation of people and trying to gain the wealth by any means?


Why they attacking Syria which is a big supporter of Palestine?
http://worldprayer.org.uk/pa-worldwide/item/3967-syria-defender-of-palestinians

Who is toping regimes again by proxy wars?
http://www.wsj.com/articles/obama-proposes-500-million-to-aid-syrian-rebels-1403813486
http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-readies-plan-b-to-arm-syria-rebels-1460509400

http://www.cnn.com/2013/09/12/politics/syria-arming-rebels/


WHo sponsors groups who joined isis
http://english.aawsat.com/2014/12/article55339780
http://www.cnn.com/2015/12/08/politics/amnesty-international-isis-weapons-u-s-/
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/us-airdrops-50-tonnes-of-weapons-to-new-syrian-rebel-coalition-a6692126.html
http://russia-insider.com/en/politics/isis-and-us-backed-moderate-rebels-join-forces-attack-syrian-army-aleppo/ri12990

http://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2014/07/08/us-backed-moderate-free-syrian-army-factions-join-islamic-state-terror-group/

https://www.sott.net/article/312774-ISIS-and-US-backed-moderate-rebels-join-forces-and-attack-Syrian-Army-in-Southeastern-Aleppo


Who buys the oil of isis? Friends?
http://ahtribune.com/world/north-africa-south-west-asia/240-israel-isis-oil.html
http://ig.ft.com/sites/2015/isis-oil/
http://www.alternet.org/news-amp-politics/whos-buying-isis-oil

http://www.mintpressnews.com/mark-zuckerberg-cant-believe-india-isnt-grateful-for-facebooks-free-internet/212359/



Who finances them
http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/24/world/middleeast/us-relies-heavily-on-saudi-money-to-support-syrian-rebels.html?_r=0
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/syria-crisis-turkey-and-saudi-arabia-shock-western-countries-by-supporting-anti-assad-jihadists-10242747.html
http://www.timesofisrael.com/yaalon-syrian-rebels-keeping-druze-safe-in-exchange-for-israeli-aid/



Who treats them in hospitals
https://foreignpolicy.com/2014/06/11/exclusive-israel-is-tending-to-wounded-syrian-rebels/
http://journal-neo.org/2014/12/01/america-s-real-ties-to-isis/


Who has constantly lobbied for war in Iraq Afghanistan, Libya?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neoconservatism

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h2uMC-XEhX4



Itys all the templars, illuminati and other bs but never of course not the j



Who attacked the biggest Muslim cause know as Palestinians in yamuck in Syria ?
http://www.cnn.com/2015/04/13/middleeast/syria-yarmouk-isis-shubert/

http://www.juancole.com/2015/09/israels-refugee-yarmouk.html

Shills of new world order or should i say j world order.


Who has created the biggest humanitarian criss in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and promotes opening borders in Europe while being exempt in their countries?

http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-syrian-refugees-israel-20150906-story.html
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/07/world/middleeast/netanyahu-rejects-calls-to-accept-syrian-refugees.html
http://www.euronews.com/2015/09/30/why-aren-t-rich-gulf-states-welcoming-syrian-refugeesor-are-they/



Its all templars obviously. Its Illuminati and aliens who enforce their vision in America polices at world stage, who have their Saudis petrodollars pals get involved, and their dogs in turkey doing their biddings. It easy enforcing propganda and missinformation by ******** in a game.

https://66.media.tumblr.com/f256dd710985613ae68d9bcdb13404e7/tumblr_o14s0jyN3w1v5w8sco1_500.png

LoyalACFan
06-07-2016, 02:02 PM
cir****tances

I love how the swear filters on these forums can take completely innocent words and make them seem dirty via unnecessary censorship. They're accidentally making the boards filthier in their attempts to make them family-friendly :p