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OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 05:17 PM
We know Ezio and Altair are not related, we don't yet know about Connor, and he's related to Subject 16, so what I'm saying is we can try and figure out Desmond's mostly family tree, like who he's related to and how and where they slot in!

LightRey
03-24-2012, 05:21 PM
He's only very distantly related to Subject Sixteen. They're just very distant cousins. My bet is that Connor is related to neither Ezio nor Alta´r.

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 05:36 PM
It says in 16's database entry that he's his cousin, something like "Hey cousin, well.." I forget the rest.

rileypoole1234
03-24-2012, 05:41 PM
He's only very distantly related to Subject Sixteen. They're just very distant cousins. My bet is that Connor is related to neither Ezio nor Alta´r.

Wait... How? Like a cousin or a second cousin? He has to be somewhat related to one of them right? Let's just say Altair is the mother's side and Ezio is the father's side, wouldn't Connor have to be on one side? Or am I completely wrong. I'm no genealogist so I'm probably wrong.

LightRey
03-24-2012, 05:43 PM
It says in 16's database entry that he's his cousin, something like "Hey cousin, well.." I forget the rest.
No, he just says "Hello, I'm Clay Kaczmarek.".


Wait... How? Like a cousin or a second cousin? He has to be somewhat related to one of them right? Let's just say Altair is the mother's side and Ezio is the father's side, wouldn't Connor have to be on one side? Or am I completely wrong. I'm no genealogist so I'm probably wrong.
More like a tenth cousin or something. He just needs to be a descendant of Ezio. Hell, he could've descended from Marcello, Desmond being descended from Flavia. Their ancestral lines could've split up there already.

frigabond
03-24-2012, 05:50 PM
So Desmond is related to Connor, Ezio, Altair (memory dna) and, by reason of shared Ezio memorios, Clay.
Sorry to sound thick but I want to be clear... I can see this getting very complicated.

Now because of their ages I'm assuming that Desmond and Clays parents share a common parent/uncle/aunt.
That traces it back say 60years? Connors time was 240yrs . So were looking at possibly 8 generations right?
If I'm correct so far...
William would have a sister/brother that married into Clays family who's parents parents are somehow related to Williams?...
To allow for the fact Clay and Desmond share the same Ezio memory dna
My head is hurting already.
I'm quite interested but I'll have to read slow and digest.

kriegerdesgottes
03-24-2012, 05:55 PM
We simply don't have anywhere near enough information to figure out even the slightest details about Desmond's genealogy except that Altair and Ezio are not related to each other. Ezio would have to go back probably like 20 generations. There are thousands of people in between that you would be directly related to not including Ezio's line of course. Altair would be thousands more so I think that is why they are keeping it vague is because there is no way that they could show his entire genealogy without coming up with a ton of other characters. I do wish though that they would at least explain which parent they are related through.

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 06:01 PM
No, he just says "Hello. I'm Clay Kaczmarek.".
Near the end of his entry it says "Good enough to still me cousin, right Desmond?", but I think he does say they're distant.

LightRey
03-24-2012, 06:19 PM
Look, this is how much we know as of right now:
http://i1202.photobucket.com/albums/bb378/LightRey/Desmondgeneology.jpg
Theoretically Connor could also be located at | (Desmond's side or earlier), | or |, but that seems unlikely as that would contradict the idea that Desmond's ancestral line is supposed to combine several unique ones.

kriegerdesgottes
03-24-2012, 06:23 PM
Yeah pretty much. And as of present, we don't even know exactly how Connor is related. By that I mean whether he is related to any of the other two which is unlikely. The only thing I guess you could add is that we know Desmond is related through Sef and also Flavia.

frigabond
03-24-2012, 06:25 PM
Thanks Lightrey. Much easier to grasp than in words.

JumpInTheFire13
03-24-2012, 06:25 PM
Here's something I made about a month ago for a similar thread and we mostly agreed that it was correct.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7190/6811369572_e845e343d5.jpg

*EDIT* I remember somebody saying that Clay was descended from an illegitimate child of Ezio's. Any ideas on this?

Assassin_M
03-24-2012, 06:28 PM
Here's something I made about a month ago for a similar thread and we mostly agreed that it was correct.
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7190/6811369572_e845e343d5.jpg
Connor ? A month ago ? interesting...

frigabond
03-24-2012, 06:40 PM
She "who lies not within our sight" related to Connor maybe? Or Altair?
Off topic but a thought looking at the diagram.
This is soo much better in picture form.

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 06:41 PM
I think it's something like this.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i321/Jake_Butler99/FamilyTree.png

LightRey
03-24-2012, 06:55 PM
I think it's something like this.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i321/Jake_Butler99/FamilyTree.png
I'm quite sure Clay isn't related to Alta´r, as the Templars would've used him for that instead of Desmond.

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 06:57 PM
I'm quite sure Clay isn't related to Alta´r, as the Templars would've used him for that instead of Desmond.
I only think that 'cos Darim and 16 look alike, I doubt it, but It dosn't hurt to think.
Off topic: why didn't the Templars just use Desmond for Ezio's Apple?

Assassin_M
03-24-2012, 06:59 PM
I only think that 'cos Darim and 16 look alike, I doubt it, but It dosn't hurt to think.
Off topic: why didn't the Templars just use Desmond for Ezio's Apple?
They actually did..
They werent, however expecting interference from Those who came before..

frigabond
03-24-2012, 07:01 PM
Just thought of something...
Didn't William say he didn't have the dna or something like that?
That would mean then that all connections are on his mothers side yes?
Connor,Clay, Ezio, Altair.
Defeats my other theory though.

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 07:02 PM
They actually did..
They werent, however expecting interference from Those who came before..
Are you talking about what was said in The Lost Archive, because I was talking about Desmond at Abstergo.

Assassin_M
03-24-2012, 07:03 PM
Are you talking about what was said in The Lost Archive, because I was talking about Desmond at Abstergo.
And who do you think Lucy`s working for ? Abstergo..
Its just the place that`s different..

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 07:05 PM
Just thought of something...
Didn't William say he didn't have the dna or something like that?
That would mean then that all connections are on his mothers side yes?
Connor,Clay, Ezio, Altair.
Defeats my other theory though.
I think he meant he didn't have high enough TWCB genes, he may only be Ezio and Connor, or Connor and Altair, or Aquilius and Connor and so on, and Desmond has his Mum and Dad's joined ancestors, giving him the right DNA

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 07:06 PM
And who do you think Lucy`s working for ? Abstergo..
Its just the place that`s different..

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about Lucy... I think you're right.

Assassin_M
03-24-2012, 07:07 PM
I think he meant he didn't have high enough TWCB genes, he may only be Ezio and Connor, or Connor and Altair, or Aquilius and Connor and so on, and Desmond has his Mum and Dad's joined ancestors, giving him the right DNA
Exactly this^

frigabond
03-24-2012, 07:10 PM
Thanks. Wasn't certain of the exact words so it's clear now.:)

Edit: He doesn't have the 'right' dna. But does have some dna.

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 07:26 PM
Come to think about it, could Connor be directly related to Desmond, they both live in America, and for all we know, Connor might have used the name Miles, so he could fake an identity while infiltrating somewhere, and he might have just kept it to start a family.

RzaRecta357
03-24-2012, 07:38 PM
Well it's only a couple hundred years until conner isn't it? So, maybe Ezio's kid married an englishman. Boom. Conner could be related to Ezio as easy as that? No?

LightRey
03-24-2012, 07:41 PM
Well it's only a couple hundred years until conner isn't it? So, maybe Ezio's kid married an englishman. Boom. Conner could be related to Ezio as easy as that? No?
Yes, but it's unlikely that happened as that would make Connor part of Desmond's Ancestral line leading to Ezio, which would make Desmond's relation to Ezio a given with his relation to Connor, making his genetic makeup less unique.

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 07:58 PM
Yes, but it's unlikely that happened as that would make Connor part of Desmond's Ancestral line leading to Ezio, which would make Desmond's relation to Ezio a given with his relation to Connor, making his genetic makeup less unique.
Yeah, if Connor and Ezio are related, the story goes caput.

kriegerdesgottes
03-24-2012, 08:04 PM
Come to think about it, could Connor be directly related to Desmond, they both live in America, and for all we know, Connor might have used the name Miles, so he could fake an identity while infiltrating somewhere, and he might have just kept it to start a family.

Well of course they are directly related, we just don't know how. And actually I think it's kind of weird that they haven't told us anything about Connor having a last name so I think it would be cool if it turned out later to be Miles because then we would at least know for sure that Desmond is related to Connor through his father.

Edit: Apparently his last name is Kenway so I guess that rules that out. Although he could of course still be related through his father.

souNdwAve89
03-24-2012, 09:20 PM
There is this tree, but it's blurry to read the details.

http://i.imgur.com/o5sD1.jpg

OriginalMiles
03-24-2012, 09:25 PM
If only there was a non blurry one.

AdamXEve
03-25-2012, 12:03 AM
Yeah, if Connor and Ezio are related, the story goes caput.

It's called a retcon. Which will happen.

LightRey
03-25-2012, 12:21 AM
It's called a retcon. Which will happen.
Actually it wouldn't be a retcon. It's not something that actually contradicts other claims or events in the story, it simply contradicts something the devs stated they wanted regarding Desmond's "uniqueness".

AdamXEve
03-25-2012, 02:10 AM
So it would be a retcon in what the developers said?

slimshady34
03-25-2012, 02:17 AM
I think it was mentioned somewhere that Altair was from Desmond's dad's side and Ezio from his mother's
When it comes to Connor, he probably had a descendant who married a descendant of Ezio or Altair tying him into one of Desmond's parents lineage (i think Connor's descendant married Ezio's)

AdamXEve
03-25-2012, 02:18 AM
This whole conversation is silly in short. Just people who are way too into the series complaining about things which were never actually even specified in the games, but rather some offhanded comment one of the producers made. Mind you a producer who isn't working on the series any longer.

JumpInTheFire13
03-25-2012, 05:39 AM
I think it's something like this.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i321/Jake_Butler99/FamilyTree.png
Darim didn't have kids.

LightRey
03-25-2012, 11:09 AM
Darim didn't have kids.
Untrue. It is unknown whether he had any or not.

Abeonis
03-26-2012, 04:03 AM
Untrue. It is unknown whether he had any or not.

Indeed. All we know is that, as of 1257 (the Mongol siege of Masyaf), Darim had not fathered any children; this could have changed afterward. As for the question posted by the OP: Whilst it's currently unconfirmed whether Connor is related to either Altair or Ezio, there is about a 50% chance of that being the case. If we work on the assumption that Ezio is related to Desmond via his paternal line, then there are two possibilities.

One: Connor is unrelated to either Ezio or Altair, and the three bloodlines only converge when Desmond is concieved. This would mean that Ezio and Altair's bloodlines do meet at some point after Flavia but prior to William. Two: Connor is related to either Ezio or Altair (either through Desmond's paternal or maternal line) and either Ezio or Altair (dependant on who is not related to Connor) bloodline only converges with Desmond's conception.

Simply put, there is a good chance Connor is related to either Ezio or Altair; but if he isn't, that then means that at some point our two previous heroes bloodlines do meet before William Miles is born.


I think it's something like this.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i321/Jake_Butler99/FamilyTree.png

Yeah, there's no possible way for Connor, Lucius, Aquilius or Accipiter to have joined Desmond's bloodline and still be related to him without being related to one of his parents... Those four characters are all related to at least one of the three playable characters' we've encountered.

JumpInTheFire13
03-26-2012, 05:18 AM
I'm quite sure Connor won't be a descendant of Ezio or Altair. Of course, I have no proof, but it would make him more important if he was unrelated to the other two.

Puppet627
03-26-2012, 07:59 AM
I hope family trees are included in the updated encyclopedia...

OriginalMiles
03-26-2012, 08:43 PM
Indeed. All we know is that, as of 1257 (the Mongol siege of Masyaf), Darim had not fathered any children; this could have changed afterward. As for the question posted by the OP: Whilst it's currently unconfirmed whether Connor is related to either Altair or Ezio, there is about a 50% chance of that being the case. If we work on the assumption that Ezio is related to Desmond via his paternal line, then there are two possibilities.

One: Connor is unrelated to either Ezio or Altair, and the three bloodlines only converge when Desmond is concieved. This would mean that Ezio and Altair's bloodlines do meet at some point after Flavia but prior to William. Two: Connor is related to either Ezio or Altair (either through Desmond's paternal or maternal line) and either Ezio or Altair (dependant on who is not related to Connor) bloodline only converges with Desmond's conception.

Simply put, there is a good chance Connor is related to either Ezio or Altair; but if he isn't, that then means that at some point our two previous heroes bloodlines do meet before William Miles is born.



Yeah, there's no possible way for Connor, Lucius, Aquilius or Accipiter to have joined Desmond's bloodline and still be related to him without being related to one of his parents... Those four characters are all related to at least one of the three playable characters' we've encountered.
I only put them separate because I wasn't sure.

MasterSimaYi
04-25-2012, 01:13 PM
Okay, let me just clear a few things up:

• Desmond is descended from Adam, Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor, not Accipiter. Accipiter is Aquilus' cousin, and an ancestor to Jonathan Hawk, who is not confirmed to be a canon character yet.
• Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor are not related to each other; their link is Desmond. Their bloodlines may have intertwined before Desmond's parents were born, but none of them share any blood relation to one another. Matt Turner, lead writer of Assassin's Creed III, confirmed that they are not related to one another in an interview with EscoBlades: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IPZJaerqqI.
• It's completely unknown to which side of Desmond's family the aforementioned ancestors belong to.
• Clay is not descended from Flavia or Marcello, but from an illegitimate child Ezio years before. Read up on that in Subject 16's database entry in Revelations.
• Clay is not descended from Alta´r.
• Lucius is Aquilus' father so putting him in a different bloodline in one of those family trees makes no sense. Assuming that you meant Lugos, he is not known to share any relation with Desmond at all and is also quite unlikely.

Don't know if this all had been cleared up yet, but I felt like doing it regardless. I've made an attempt at creating Desmond's family tree here - http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/User%3AMaster_Sima_Yi%2FSandbox#Desmond_Miles - without adding any speculation to it.

Abeonis
04-25-2012, 01:42 PM
Okay, let me just clear a few things up:

Ľ Desmond is descended from Adam, Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor, not Accipiter. Accipiter is Aquilus' cousin, and an ancestor to Jonathan Hawk, who is not confirmed to be a canon character yet.
Ľ Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor are not related to each other; their link is Desmond. Their bloodlines may have intertwined before Desmond's parents were born, but none of them share any blood relation to one another. Matt Turner, lead writer of Assassin's Creed III, confirmed that they are not related to one another in an interview with EscoBlades: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IPZJaerqqI.
Ľ It's completely unknown to which side of Desmond's family the aforementioned ancestors belong to.
Ľ Clay is not descended from Flavia or Marcello, but from an illegitimate child Ezio years before. Read up on that in Subject 16's database entry in Revelations.
Ľ Clay is not descended from Alta´r.
Ľ Lucius is Aquilus' father so putting him in a different bloodline in one of those family trees makes no sense. Assuming that you meant Lugos, he is not known to share any relation with Desmond at all and is also quite unlikely.

Don't know if this all had been cleared up yet, but I felt like doing it regardless. I've made an attempt at creating Desmond's family tree here - http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/User%3AMaster_Sima_Yi%2FSandbox#Desmond_Miles - without adding any speculation to it.

**** it Sima, I was gonna post that link! XD

OriginalMiles
04-25-2012, 01:49 PM
My updated family tree.
http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i321/Jake_Butler99/Dessy.png

The ? means I wasn't sure if they were joint in that parent's ancestry, and this version is a bit less speculative, as I think it's confirmed Ezio and Altair's ancestry never crossed until Desmond was conceived and Connor and Aquilius never are just a guess.

Gil_217
04-25-2012, 02:19 PM
Okay, let me just clear a few things up:

• Desmond is descended from Adam, Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor, not Accipiter. Accipiter is Aquilus' cousin, and an ancestor to Jonathan Hawk, who is not confirmed to be a canon character yet.
• Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor are not related to each other; their link is Desmond. Their bloodlines may have intertwined before Desmond's parents were born, but none of them share any blood relation to one another. Matt Turner, lead writer of Assassin's Creed III, confirmed that they are not related to one another in an interview with EscoBlades: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4IPZJaerqqI.
• It's completely unknown to which side of Desmond's family the aforementioned ancestors belong to.
• Clay is not descended from Flavia or Marcello, but from an illegitimate child Ezio years before. Read up on that in Subject 16's database entry in Revelations.
• Clay is not descended from Alta´r.
• Lucius is Aquilus' father so putting him in a different bloodline in one of those family trees makes no sense. Assuming that you meant Lugos, he is not known to share any relation with Desmond at all and is also quite unlikely.

Don't know if this all had been cleared up yet, but I felt like doing it regardless. I've made an attempt at creating Desmond's family tree here - http://assassinscreed.wikia.com/wiki/User%3AMaster_Sima_Yi%2FSandbox#Desmond_Miles - without adding any speculation to it.

Just one thing: if they (Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor) are not related, and since they are all ancestors of Desmond, some of those bloodlines must've crossed before Desmond was born, some of them have to converge somewhere, as OriginalMiles showed. Right?

Edit: I'm not saying all of them of course, since some of them only converged when Desmond was conceived.

MasterSimaYi
04-25-2012, 03:36 PM
@OriginalMiles: That still is speculative, we don't know if each ancestor is from each of Desmond's grandparents. Aquilus, Alta´r and Ezio may be from Desmond's mother's side, and Connor may be from his father's side, or something like that. We are completely in the dark on that, so we can't possibly make an accurate family tree. And it's Aquilus, not Aquilius. His wife's name is Valeria.

@Gil_217: Yes, their bloodlines converged at one point. Either in Desmond, Desmond's parents or some time before. But they each are part of a different bloodline.

OriginalMiles
04-25-2012, 03:49 PM
@OriginalMiles: That still is speculative, we don't know if each ancestor is from each of Desmond's grandparents. Aquilus, Alta´r and Ezio may be from Desmond's mother's side, and Connor may be from his father's side, or something like that. We are completely in the dark on that, so we can't possibly make an accurate family tree.

@Gil_217: Yes, their bloodlines converged at one point. Either in Desmond, Desmond's parents or some time before. But they each are part of a different bloodline.
Well if Altair, Ezio and Aquilius are one his mum's side, that just takes away more of Dez's uniqueness, so lets say this, there are 2 on each side, Mum and Dad, 1 is on each Grandparent, and their parents have some of Desmond's unknown ancestors, so when they concieve, they join up until Mrs Miles meets Bill Miles, and they make Desmond, who has all these great ancestors together, and it makes him more unique.

MasterSimaYi
04-25-2012, 04:02 PM
Well if Altair, Ezio and Aquilius are one his mum's side, that just takes away more of Dez's uniqueness, so lets say this, there are 2 on each side, Mum and Dad, 1 is on each Grandparent, and their parents have some of Desmond's unknown ancestors, so when they concieve, they join up until Mrs Miles meets Bill Miles, and they make Desmond, who has all these great ancestors together, and it makes him more unique.

I didn't quite understand that at all. We don't really know how the genes thing works. Genes don't add up during conception. When your parents both have blue eyes, that doesn't mean your eyes will be blue-er than both of theirs. But even when disregarding that, Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor surely aren't the only ones in Desmond's bloodline with First Civilization DNA; they are only the ones we know if. And if they are, then when three of them are on Desmond's mother's side I can't see how that would take away Desmond's "uniqueness," when William still would have the remaining relevant ancestor in his bloodline.

freddie_1897
04-25-2012, 04:08 PM
so not all of Desmonds ancestors are descendants of Adam, so A) how can they all use eagle vision? and B) which ancestor is a direct descendant of Adam?

MasterSimaYi
04-25-2012, 04:10 PM
so not all of Desmonds ancestors are descendants of Adam, so A) how can they all use eagle vision? and B) which ancestor is a direct descendant of Adam?

Adam and Eve are not the only ones with First Civilization DNA. There were several more. And we don't know which of Desmond's shown ancestors descent from Adam, if any do.

OriginalMiles
04-25-2012, 04:11 PM
I didn't quite understand that at all. We don't really know how the genes thing works. Genes don't add up during conception. When your parents both have blue eyes, that doesn't mean your eyes will be blue-er than both of theirs. But even when disregarding that, Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor surely aren't the only ones in Desmond's bloodline with First Civilization DNA; they are only the ones we know if. And if they are, then when three of them are on Desmond's mother's side I can't see how that would take away Desmond's "uniqueness," when William still would have the remaining relevant ancestor in his bloodline.
It takes away from the uniqueness because if Ezio, Altair and Aquilius were on his mum's side, she would have more, but if she was even with Bill, she wouldn't be as unique, because if she had those 3 and Bill had that 1, she would almost be as unique as her son.

MasterSimaYi
04-25-2012, 04:21 PM
It takes away from the uniqueness because if Ezio, Altair and Aquilius were on his mum's side, she would have more, but if she was even with Bill, she wouldn't be as unique, because if she had those 3 and Bill had that 1, she would almost be as unique as her son.

As I said, Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor are the only prominent ancestors of his that we have seen, but that doesn't mean that their bloodlines are the only ones descended from the First Civilization. And I was just posting a possibility of what Desmond's bloodline may look like; I don't think Ubisoft would go by what looks unique but more by how it could be in real life. We have no idea what it actually looks like, so any attempt at making an accurate family tree for him would be wrong by default at this point.

OriginalMiles
04-25-2012, 04:36 PM
As I said, Aquilus, Alta´r, Ezio and Connor are the only prominent ancestors of his that we have seen, but that doesn't mean that their bloodlines are the only ones descended from the First Civilization. And I was just posting a possibility of what Desmond's bloodline may look like; I don't think Ubisoft would go by what looks unique but more by how it could be in real life. We have no idea what it actually looks like, so any attempt at making an accurate family tree for him would be wrong by default at this point.
Honestly we don't even know if Aquilius is even Canon in the games.

MasterSimaYi
04-25-2012, 04:43 PM
Honestly we don't even know if Aquilius is even Canon in the games.

Aquilus is a canon character. He has appeared in the official Encyclopedia and in the Assassin's Creed Universe video posted by Ubisoft themselves. The French comics are canon, aside from the modern day storyline which only is not canon because it completely contradicts what has been established in the games; Aquilus' storyline does not contradict anything. He is 100% canon.

OriginalMiles
04-25-2012, 04:49 PM
Aquilus is a canon character. He has appeared in the official Encyclopedia and in the Assassin's Creed Universe video posted by Ubisoft themselves. The French comics are canon, aside from the modern day storyline which only is not canon because it completely contradicts what has been established in the games; Aquilus' storyline does not contradict anything. He is 100% canon.
Ah, OK.

Abeonis
04-25-2012, 08:40 PM
so not all of Desmonds ancestors are descendants of Adam, so A) how can they all use eagle vision? and B) which ancestor is a direct descendant of Adam?

It's never actually stated that Desmond is a direct relation of Adam and/or Eve, only that Clay is. If Clay is related to Adam via the Auditore bloodline then Desmond is as well, but as we don't know if that's the case we have no evidence that Desmond is related to that particular individual.

MasterSimaYi
04-25-2012, 08:54 PM
It's never actually stated that Desmond is a direct relation of Adam and/or Eve, only that Clay is. If Clay is related to Adam via the Auditore bloodline then Desmond is as well, but as we don't know if that's the case we have no evidence that Desmond is related to that particular individual.

Actually Desmond is apparently revealed to be a descendant of Adam in the Revelations Official Guide.