PDA

View Full Version : This game it awesome but ........



xryanx28
03-13-2012, 05:36 AM
I'm playing the first AC all over again and I every time I kill a guard I always see their Red Cross on their uniforms . The knights Templar were really the Christian knights that tried to take back the holy land and the assassins/muslims were really the bad guys taking control of it and persecuting the people that lived there during the crusades . I LOVE the game but it really make me think what kind of evil minds the dev's have -_-

JumpInTheFire13
03-13-2012, 05:38 AM
The Assassins were not allied with the Muslims/Saracens. They were neutral during the crusades and Altair assassinated key targets on both sides of the war in order to bring peace to the Holy Land.

xryanx28
03-13-2012, 05:40 AM
they killed the christian knights and they are Muslims if im not mistaken

xryanx28
03-13-2012, 05:42 AM
still seems kinda weird how the portray the christians as very bad people in this game . i kno its just a game its just weird

fugazi787
03-13-2012, 05:46 AM
they killed the christian knights and they are Muslims if im not mistaken


Altair killed both Christians AND Muslims. True fact.

Voltige2011
03-13-2012, 05:48 AM
Even if they are Muslims it doesn't make them Saracens.

xryanx28
03-13-2012, 05:54 AM
still the beginning of the game where it says this game was made by a team of multi cultural beliefs blaa blaa bla just makes me think even more on how this game is bad and messed up to all Christians which mostly everyone is i think if you have a religion

Jamison_J_B
03-13-2012, 05:56 AM
it's a game...

Lonesoldier2012
03-13-2012, 06:13 AM
Altair killed both Christians AND Muslims. True fact.

Fact!

Poodle_of_Doom
03-13-2012, 06:15 AM
What's worse is when you extend the idea to your favorite TV shows, like Criminal Minds, or CSI. Remember, whenever you see some psycho whacking people, someone had to dream that shiznit up for your viewing pleasure, and they could be sitting right next to you. :)

Jamison_J_B
03-13-2012, 06:26 AM
LOL...very true

ILLusioNaire
03-13-2012, 06:45 AM
Let me assure you OP, the Crusaders Altair killed were not real Christians... lol Most Crusaders were criminals, not righteous warriors.

Calvarok
03-13-2012, 07:45 AM
The OP is annoyed that the game doesn't depict all Christians in the Crusades as being the heroes, when in reality most were even LESS heroic than shown in the game. What about the relentless atrocities committed, all in the name of God. Are Muslims evil for taking offence to Christians coming over and declaring war and slaughtering all those who would not convert? I would hardly say so.

Altair kills members of both sides of the conflict, as said before.

I'm kinda annoyed that the OP seems to be saying "Wow, the devs really messed up. These people couldn't possibly be bad, because they were Christian."

There are bad people everywhere. It's not such a stretch.

JoshuaGarrison
03-13-2012, 09:18 AM
>op claims christians were the good guys during the 3rd crusades
>more people have died in the name of jesus christ than any living person in history (including hitler!)

haha what am i reading

pirate1802
03-13-2012, 10:14 AM
1. What? Altair clearly kills Muslims and Christians equally brutally and someone is still concerned that the game is biased against Christians?
2. If you read an unbiased account of the Crusades you'll find there were no "good guys" and "bad guys". Its just a result of religious indoctrination of kids.
3. It is a work of FICTION.if you don't know what that is, the author is free to tell a story in any way he sees fit. as long as he clarifies it's fiction. If you have any objection, you're free not to play/read. No one is forcing you.

And lastly, how come someone has so serious objections against a game and still LOVE the game?

LightRey
03-13-2012, 11:56 AM
it's a game...
http://media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzilefB5Ig1qi68z9.png

Seriously though, you're right. Besides, we really don't know what kind of motives anyone in those wars really had. We weren't there.

Kit572
03-13-2012, 12:11 PM
still seems kinda weird how the portray the christians as very bad people in this game . i kno its just a game its just weird

But christians ARE mean!


...at least they are too me.

LightRey
03-13-2012, 12:13 PM
But christians ARE mean!


...at least they are too me.
If they're mean to you maybe you're not being very nice to Christians.

Kit572
03-13-2012, 12:16 PM
If they're mean to you maybe you're not being very nice to Christians.

Me: Why do christians hate magic?
Them: Leave us alone! Athiest hypocrite.


that was a conversation i had with one once. Why is that mean?


EDIT: In another one, they told me that i am worthless and deserve to rot in hell because i "Don't understand their religion".


I think THEY are the ones mean to me thanks.

LightRey
03-13-2012, 12:18 PM
Me: Why do christians hate magic?
Them: Leave us alone! Athiest hypocrite.


that was a conversation i had with one once. Why is that mean?
They hate magic because in Christianity magic is a gift granted by the devil. Christians are actually the ones who "made up" the concept of magic.

I don't know why they said that, but I don't know the context of the situation. Regardless, I see it as little reason to generalize an entire cultural group.

Kit572
03-13-2012, 12:22 PM
They hate magic because in Christianity magic is a gift granted by the devil. Christians are actually the ones who "made up" the concept of magic.

I don't know why they said that, but I don't know the context of the situation. Regardless, I see it as little reason to generalize an entire cultural group.


i edited my post, there are more reasons as to why i think they are mean.

They also put me down alot... I think they are mean, but thats just what i think.

LightRey
03-13-2012, 12:23 PM
i edited my post, there are more reasons as to why i think they are mean.

They also put me down alot... I think they are mean, but thats just what i think.
Again, I see no reason to generalize. If a bunch of black people kept harassing you, would that be enough reason to hate all black people?

Kit572
03-13-2012, 12:25 PM
Again, I see no reason to generalize. If a bunch of black people kept harassing you, would that be enough reason to hate all black people?

You got a point.

Let me fix up what i think about christians... i hate RADICAL CHRISTIANS.

The none radicals nice... i like nice people.... i hate bad people (looks at radical christians)...

Kit572
03-13-2012, 12:26 PM
(Accidently double posted)

LightRey
03-13-2012, 12:27 PM
You got a point.

Let me fix up what i think about christians... i hate RADICAL CHRISTIANS.

The none radicals nice... i like nice people.... i hate bad people (looks at radical christians)...
Good.

JoshuaGarrison
03-13-2012, 01:54 PM
Aren't the assassins radicals though? The way they act, especially in the first game, it actually wouldn't be a stretch at all to call them terrorists. They literally kill just about anyone they disagree with and excuse it with "some men can't be reasoned with." Not to mention the next Assassin will be fighting alongside America's founding fathers who--by England's standards then and America's standards today--were/would (be) viewed as terrorists. Actually, what does radical even mean in this context? It used to be a positive adjective one might give a skateboard, but now it seems like something pundits and politicians use to refer to anyone they disagree with. It reminds me of something George Carlin said. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLZZiwOWlU&list=FLk_MYo0PjKXqk7OOZpl3-jg&feature=player_detailpage#t=288s) Consider that while you call every Christian you disagree with a "Radical Christian" they're calling you a "Radical Atheist" and you're both right because the word has no popular meaning besides I disagree with this person and their religious and/or political affiliation.

LightRey
03-13-2012, 01:58 PM
Aren't the assassins radicals though? The way they act, especially in the first game, it actually wouldn't be a stretch at all to call them terrorists. They literally kill just about anyone they disagree with and excuse it with "some men can't be reasoned with." Not to mention the next Assassin will be fighting alongside America's founding fathers who--by England's standards then and America's standards today--were/would (be) viewed as terrorists. Actually, what does radical even mean in this context? It used to be a positive adjective one might give a skateboard, but now it seems like something pundits and politicians use to refer to anyone they disagree with. It reminds me of something George Carlin said. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miLZZiwOWlU&list=FLk_MYo0PjKXqk7OOZpl3-jg&feature=player_detailpage#t=288s)

They're not terrorists. A terrorist's main goal is instilling fear in people, which isn't what the Assassins do. I guess they could be seen as radicals though.

D.I.D.
03-13-2012, 02:07 PM
They're not terrorists. A terrorist's main goal is instilling fear in people, which isn't what the Assassins do. I guess they could be seen as radicals though.

"Terrorist" is the term applied by the establishment, though. I've never heard people described as a terrorists use the word to describe themselves.

The behaviour involved is a willingness to use lethal violence to affect political change and destabilise the government, and that's going on all the time in the games. We just call it terrorism when the people committing the violence don't have a government of their own.

pirate1802
03-13-2012, 02:26 PM
"Terrorist" is the term applied by the establishment, though. I've never heard people described as a terrorists use the word to describe themselves.

The behaviour involved is a willingness to use lethal violence to affect political change and destabilise the government, and that's going on all the time in the games. We just call it terrorism when the people committing the violence don't have a government of their own.

LOL at your sig.

LightRey
03-13-2012, 03:07 PM
"Terrorist" is the term applied by the establishment, though. I've never heard people described as a terrorists use the word to describe themselves.

The behaviour involved is a willingness to use lethal violence to affect political change and destabilise the government, and that's going on all the time in the games. We just call it terrorism when the people committing the violence don't have a government of their own.

True. The term is heavily abused these days. Still, just because most people aren't using it correctly doesn't mean we should too.

Funbun777
03-13-2012, 03:33 PM
Altair killed people on both sides

Also in Assassins creed 2 and brotherhood you play as ezio ( who in the books is said to be Christian) killing papal forces

Why you may ask?

Because the catholic relgion was a very corrupt organization in the crusades and the renaissance

Coming from a Christian as well

Acrimonious_Nin
03-13-2012, 03:44 PM
people b4 9-11-01 called the hashashin/hashashyun by there proper names ever since america went in to iraq, for some reason people have been refering to this near ancient sect as terrorists.... o.O smells like somo one wants the trash the middle east to make everyone believe bad things about them...

@ kit yes, I do not know why, but I too have been attacked by radical christians...then one time I was blessed by one of the girls their ...she thought I needed it after I told her I have no religion I just read about all the religions out there and what they believe...then I got blessed, but not before imposing her beliefs on me.... >:O what is up with that lol, but anywho

@ OP <_< i thought we just submitted to the fact that we all bought this game because deep down inside we all like stealth assassin like games....not hero's lmao

EnXess
03-13-2012, 04:12 PM
I'm playing the first AC all over again and I every time I kill a guard I always see their Red Cross on their uniforms . The knights Templar were really the Christian knights that tried to take back the holy land and the assassins/muslims were really the bad guys taking control of it and persecuting the people that lived there during the crusades . I LOVE the game but it really make me think what kind of evil minds the dev's have -_-
The Assassins spoke in Arabic and therefore were Muslim?

Also, Christians were just as at fault as Jews and Muslims during the holy war. They were not the 'good' guys as your mind seems to reason, they were all at fault. They all killed and the Christians persecuted Muslims just as was the opposite. Assassins were removing Templars from the picture because they sought control, the rest was a pathetic religious squabble over land.

SteelCity999
03-13-2012, 05:11 PM
The Assassins spoke in Arabic and therefore were Muslim?

Also, Christians were just as at fault as Jews and Muslims during the holy war. They were not the 'good' guys as your mind seems to reason, they were all at fault. They all killed and the Christians persecuted Muslims just as was the opposite. Assassins were removing Templars from the picture because they sought control, the rest was a pathetic religious squabble over land.

^Very true.


We should all realize that in real-life, the atrocities were heavily commited by both religious factions and displayed none of the attributes that they preach. From flinging body parts over the ramparts back to invaders, to raping and pillaging of cities and even killing off the siblings of the sultans so there could be no challenges to a successor, there is not much good that came out of that period. Most of the lives that were lost were pointless displays of savagery that accomplished nothing - seeing as the boundaries today are very similar to what they were back then when you think about it. The real-life assassins were muslim but they were not terrorists by any means. They killed individuals to perpetuate change. Terrorists kill anyone and everyone to force change - through fear. While they both involve killing, they are very much different attitudes.

Debating how the game portrays certain factions or people is really pointless since what actually happened was far worse.

Poodle_of_Doom
03-13-2012, 05:20 PM
They hate magic because in Christianity magic is a gift granted by the devil. Christians are actually the ones who "made up" the concept of magic.

I don't know why they said that, but I don't know the context of the situation. Regardless, I see it as little reason to generalize an entire cultural group.

With all due respect, the concept of magic, and the reletive commandments against it, come from the Torah, particularly the book of Leviticus if I'm not mistaken.

LightRey
03-13-2012, 05:25 PM
With all due respect, the concept of magic, and the reletive commandments against it, come from the Torah, particularly the book of Leviticus if I'm not mistaken.

Well that's true, but the mordern interpretation of it is derived from the Christian interpretation of it.

Assassin_M
03-13-2012, 06:42 PM
Both sides committed atrocities during the Crusades..
War is the only event where each side is evil in a sense..
Its killing, no matter how you put it..
Children and women were killed by both sides of the conflict, Saracens and Crusaders were fighting in the name of religion..

xryanx28
03-13-2012, 06:53 PM
this is the best game to actually look into what happen in real life during the time periods of the game . I cant really think of another game ^_^

Poodle_of_Doom
03-13-2012, 06:58 PM
Well that's true, but the mordern interpretation of it is derived from the Christian interpretation of it.


Depends on which group your talking to.

FilipinoNinja67
03-13-2012, 06:59 PM
still the beginning of the game where it says this game was made by a team of multi cultural beliefs blaa blaa bla just makes me think even more on how this game is bad and messed up to all Christians which mostly everyone is i think if you have a religion

Okay but its okay to call muslims and saracans evil? How do you think that makes them feel? They put the multi cultural belief statement so that people will understand that its just a game and should, in no way, take the game seriously enough to come up with presumptions like all christians are bad, or all muslims are bad.

SaintPerkele
03-13-2012, 07:37 PM
I must admit I didn't read the whole thread, so this might have been said before... But how do hell can you possibly depict the Christian crusaders as good guys and the Saracens as bad guys?
You are either extremely religious to a point where the whole western world would hate you if you were Muslim, or you greatly lack historical understanding.

First of all, "take back the wholy land"? Why would they take it "back"? The land never belonged to Christians. Why would it? Because Jesus was born there? Muslims (which you seem to equalise with Saracens) believe in Jesus Christ as well, although they merely consider him as a prophet instead of God's son. So you can't argue on a religious basis (which is never possible in my opinion anyway, but you seem to be very convinced of Christianity).
On a non-religious basis, the Christians peoples (so French, English and German soldiers in case of the Third Crusade) originated from an entirely different place on earth - mostly Northern Europe, whereas the Saracens mostly descended from the same people Jesus was part of. If you want to say, who the land belongs to - it should belong to those people, who lived there before. In this case - oh snap! - the Saracens.

So Christians at those time believed the same thing you seem to believe - that the Holy Land belongs to the European people because of their Religion. That's why they tried to conquer it. It were the Christians who led the first attacks. It were the Christians who were responsible for the whole conflict. Yes, of course, the Saracens attacked the crusaders as well, but initally merely as a defence. Moreover, the crusaders also robbed a huge amount of art, noble metals and so on. So if you really want to depict someone as the bad guys, it's rather the crusaders.

To finish my post, one last thing: The crusaders were not depicted as the bad guys in AC, neither were the Saracens. Did you really not notice that both of them had Templars within the range of their highest members? In fact, Templars from both sides even teamed up in the game. When you went to Acre, you could listen to herolds taking about the cruel things Saracens have done. When going to Damascus, it's the exact opposite. That is what was so great about AC1 - a war and the Assassins in the middle of it, without taking side for any party. I hope that will be similar in AC3.

Poodle_of_Doom
03-13-2012, 07:54 PM
http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/cc3/greymelken/lolpix-surprise-no-one-cares.jpg

SaintPerkele
03-13-2012, 08:15 PM
http://cdn.memegenerator.net/instances/400x/16212447.jpg
Ah, Ubi forums.. Where a meme or a reaction image replaces long and well written texts.

Lonesoldier2012
03-14-2012, 01:04 AM
You got a point.

Let me fix up what i think about christians... i hate RADICAL CHRISTIANS.

The none radicals nice... i like nice people.... i hate bad people (looks at radical christians)...

You've clearly been dealing with those fake judgmental "Christians" God loves us as we are. therefore when "Christians" judge that comes from the Devil. not God. i'm sorry about your previous experiences with those fake Christians. real Christians aren't like that.

Black_Widow9
03-14-2012, 01:29 AM
Please make sure that this discussion is constructive and doesn't start bashing others beliefs. Also, constantly posting Meme's instead of something constructive is seen as Spam so I suggest you stop.
Thanks

pirate1802
03-14-2012, 06:42 AM
The religious disclaimer was specifically put in place for people like OP.

De Filosoof
03-14-2012, 05:52 PM
I'm playing the first AC all over again and I every time I kill a guard I always see their Red Cross on their uniforms . The knights Templar were really the Christian knights that tried to take back the holy land and the assassins/muslims were really the bad guys taking control of it and persecuting the people that lived there during the crusades . I LOVE the game but it really make me think what kind of evil minds the dev's have -_-

Dude..... are you ****ing serious?!?! Do you really think the knights templar were good people?
Sucks to be you.
It's time to learn some history and.......christianity. LOL.

Assassin_M
03-14-2012, 05:59 PM
Dude..... are you ****ing serious?!?! Do you really think the knights templar were good people?
Sucks to be you.
It's time to learn some history and.......christianity. LOL.
Your attitude is nauseating..
Take it easy

De Filosoof
03-14-2012, 06:50 PM
Your attitude is nauseating..
Take it easy

I'm sorry, sometimes i just can't stand christian stupidity.
Christians did/do very.VERY sick stuff.
I think AC should be cherished for pointing this out because it's very rare in videogames and most of all it's the truth so it shouldn't be denied.

Assassin_M
03-14-2012, 08:14 PM
I'm sorry, sometimes i just can't stand christian stupidity.
Christians did/do very.VERY sick stuff.
I think AC should be cherished for pointing this out because it's very rare in videogames and most of all it's the truth so it shouldn't be denied.
So did/do Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists etc..
Some people just like to think that what they believe in, is the best thing in the world..

itsamea-mario
03-14-2012, 08:34 PM
Everybody is bad people.

AdamXEve
03-14-2012, 09:52 PM
You're very, very ill-informed. The Templars even IRL were war criminals given pardon to kill, often innocent, anyone who opposed the Christian regime. Muslims are not necessarily the bad guys simply because they are not Christian and vice versa . If you played the game you would understand the game denounces all religion as fiction, which by the way, is closer to reality than I think a lot of people who play these games are aware. The post really ruined my afternoon actually; I hate when people make me feel like there is no hope for human intelligence and understanding of things outside of whatever little bubbles they live in; sadly I expect outrage when not all of the Americans in ACIII are good guys.


So did/do Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists etc..
Some people just like to think that what they believe in, is the best thing in the world..

>Implying Atheism is a religion or a belief at all.

Atheism is simply the lack of the belief in God. Nothing more. It's the not the belief there is no God; it's the lack of belief through reason and lack of evidence that there is one. Basically, don't put Atheists in the same realm as Theists as it's really quite insulting. Otherwise, I agree with you.

Acrimonious_Nin
03-14-2012, 10:46 PM
So did/do Muslims, Jews, Buddhists, Atheists etc..
Some people just like to think that what they believe in, is the best thing in the world..

that is why the assassins fight.... >_> am i right?

LightRey
03-14-2012, 10:50 PM
You're very, very ill-informed. The Templars even IRL were war criminals given pardon to kill, often innocent, anyone who opposed the Christian regime. Muslims are not necessarily the bad guys simply because they are not Christian and vice versa . If you played the game you would understand the game denounces all religion as fiction, which by the way, is closer to reality than I think a lot of people who play these games are aware. The post really ruined my afternoon actually; I hate when people make me feel like there is no hope for human intelligence and understanding of things outside of whatever little bubbles they live in; sadly I expect outrage when not all of the Americans in ACIII are good guys.



>Implying Atheism is a religion or a belief at all.

Atheism is simply the lack of the belief in God. Nothing more. It's the not the belief there is no God; it's the lack of belief through reason and lack of evidence that there is one. Basically, don't put Atheists in the same realm as Theists as it's really quite insulting. Otherwise, I agree with you.

Sry, that's not true. Athe´sm isn't the lack of belief in god, it's the belief that there is no god at all.

I'd also like to point out that the greatest genocide in history was carried out by an atheist.

D.I.D.
03-14-2012, 10:54 PM
Sry, that's not true. Athe´sm isn't the lack of belief in god, it's the belief that there is no god at all.

No, you're describing something which would perhaps be "anti-theism". Atheism is simply the absence of belief. Agnosticism is an unnecessary construct from a more cautious time, and it's an unfortunate one because its existence pushes atheism into being something that it's not (i.e. because "agnosticism" is a common word, people erroneously assume atheism must be a more radical position).

LightRey
03-14-2012, 10:59 PM
No, you're describing something which would perhaps be "anti-theism". Atheism is simply the absence of belief. Agnosticism is an unnecessary construct from a more cautious time, and it's an unfortunate one because its existence pushes atheism into being something that it's not (i.e. because "agnosticism" is a common word, people erroneously assume atheism must be a more radical position).
I'm sorry but you are incorrect. The word "athe´sm" is derived from Greek. The Greek word "theos" means god and adding an 'a' in front of it literally refers to a "lack of" what follows. Ergo, athe´sm is referring to a belief of a lack of a god.

To give an example of a similar construction: "apathy" is the lack of "pathos" meaning "compassion" (or "emotion").

D.I.D.
03-14-2012, 11:05 PM
I'm sorry but you are incorrect. The word "athe´sm" is derived from Greek. The Greek word "theos" means god and adding an 'a' in front of it literally refers to a "lack of" what follows. Ergo, athe´sm is referring to a belief of a lack of a god.

To give an example of a similar construction: "apathy" is the lack of "pathos" or "compassion".

You're bending it to make it a firm objection to theism so that you can call it a belief. It is not.

We use the "a-" prefix to denote an absence. We could say "lack" for all sorts of "a-" words - "asynchronous", "atypical", etc - but we don't have to switch to doing this for the word "atheism" because the "absence" meaning works just fine with theism too.

There is no need for the word "agnostic" anymore, and the only reason it ever had a purpose was for avoiding conflict. An agnostic is simply an atheist. What we choose to do beyond that position doesn't change the position.

[edit] And additionally, your use of the prefix simply doesn't fit with other words. "Amorphous", for example: an amorphous thing is not an anti-shape, it's something which lacks a shape. "Acardia": the absence of a heart. "Acarpous" without fruit. "Anoxia": the absence of oxygen.

LightRey
03-14-2012, 11:18 PM
You're bending it to make it a firm objection to theism so that you can call it a belief. It is not.

We use the "a-" prefix to denote an absence. We could say "lack" for all sorts of "a-" words - "asynchronous", "atypical", etc - but we don't have to switch to doing this for the word "atheism" because the "absence" meaning works just fine with theism too.

There is no need for the word "agnostic" anymore, and the only reason it ever had a purpose was for avoiding conflict. An agnostic is simply an atheist. What we choose to do beyond that position doesn't change the position.

I'm sorry, but I'm not. A so-called "ism" refers to a philosophy or consensus. For example, theism is referring to the consensus or philosophy that there is a god or there are numerous gods.

The "a-" prefix does refer to an "absence", but I do not think you fully understand the impact such a thing has on the meaning. You seem to think that that refers to an absence of belief, but this is not true. It refers to an absence of a god. The "a-" prefix is bound to "theos", not "-ism", which is a completely modern adaptation and has nothing to do with any Greek heritage.

To quote the Consise Oxford English dictionary to settle this matter:
"atheism n. disbelief in the existence of a god or gods."

Note that the word "disbelief" refers to a belief in a negative, not a lack of belief.

Assassin_M
03-14-2012, 11:24 PM
Atheism is a way of thinking, i.e Ideology, i.e creed, i.e belief..
Just like Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc..

D.I.D.
03-14-2012, 11:36 PM
Atheism is a way of thinking, i.e Ideology, i.e creed, i.e belief..
Just like Islam, Christianity, Judaism etc..

It's not "the belief there is no God", any more than to be "amoral" is to be against morals - it's simply being without morals.

LightRey
03-14-2012, 11:38 PM
It's not "the belief there is no God", any more than to be "amoral" is to be against morals - it's simply being without morals.
Did you not just read my post?

Assassin_M
03-14-2012, 11:39 PM
It's not "the belief there is no God", any more than to be "amoral" is to be against morals - it's simply being without morals.
I`ll ask you this..
Do you believe in God ? (I want the answer to be No)

D.I.D.
03-14-2012, 11:42 PM
I'm sorry, but I'm not. A so-called "ism" refers to a philosophy or consensus. For example, theism is referring to the consensus or philosophy that there is a god or there are numerous gods.

The "a-" prefix does refer to an "absence", but I do not think you fully understand the impact such a thing has on the meaning. You seem to think that that refers to an absence of belief, but this is not true. It refers to an absence of a god. The "a-" prefix is bound to "theos", not "-ism", which is a completely modern adaptation and has nothing to do with any Greek heritage.

To quote the Consise Oxford English dictionary to settle this matter:
"atheism n. disbelief in the existence of a god or gods."

Note that the word "disbelief" refers to a belief in a negative, not a lack of belief.

It's a false argument to state that because it has -ism on the end that it must be a belief system like the religions.

The "-ism" is already attached to the word via "theism" ("the belief in the existence of a diety or deities"), which existed first. "Atheism" comes chronologically after that, as the absence of such a belief.

You're using one dictionary definition to support your point, but you're making several jumps in order to make it work the way you want it to.

Assassin_M
03-14-2012, 11:44 PM
It's a false argument to state that because it has -ism on the end that it must be a belief system like the religions.

The "-ism" is already attached to the word via "theism" ("the belief in the existence of a diety or deities"), which existed first. "Atheism" comes chronologically after that, as the absence of such a belief.

You're using one dictionary definition to support your point, but you're making several jumps in order to make it work the way you want it to.
Whats Islam ? an Ideology
Whats Judaism ? an Ideology
Whats Christianity ? an Ideology
whats Atheism ? an Ideology

Steww-
03-14-2012, 11:45 PM
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism
http://www.answers.com/topic/atheism
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/atheism
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/atheist

D.I.D.
03-14-2012, 11:46 PM
Did you not just read my post?

I read and replied to Assassin_M's point first, and then I read yours and answered that.

LightRey
03-14-2012, 11:49 PM
It's a false argument to state that because it has -ism on the end that it must be a belief system like the religions.

The "-ism" is already attached to the word via "theism" ("the belief in the existence of a diety or deities"), which existed first. "Atheism" comes chronologically after that, as the absence of such a belief.

You're using one dictionary definition to support your point, but you're making several jumps in order to make it work the way you want it to.
I'm sorry but you are once again incorrect. You seem to think that the "a-" prefix is something added within the English language. It is not. It is fully part of the Greek language system and all Engish words with such a construction are directly and completely taken from (ancient) Greek. The suffix "-ism" has in meaning never been connected to the prefix "a-", because they have never been part of the same lingual construction.

To further quote the Consise Oxford Dictionary on the origin of the word:
"-ORIGIN C16: from Fr. athÚisme, from Gk atheos, from a- 'without' + theos 'god'.".

It is, in fact, the philosophy of "without god", i.e. the philosophy that there is no god.

D.I.D.
03-14-2012, 11:50 PM
I`ll ask you this..
Do you believe in God ? (I want the answer to be No)

What difference does it make to a discussion about etymology?

Assassin_M
03-14-2012, 11:52 PM
What difference does it make to a discussion about etymology?
You just had to argue.. well fine..
If you`ll say no, then thats a way of thinking, an Ideology, a belief in the disbelief of the non-existence of God..
No Dictionary, no word twisting, just common sense..

itsamea-mario
03-14-2012, 11:54 PM
Sry, that's not true. Athe´sm isn't the lack of belief in god, it's the belief that there is no god at all.

I'd also like to point out that the greatest genocide in history was carried out by an atheist.

Just to clarify, which genocide are we talking about?

D.I.D.
03-14-2012, 11:56 PM
I'm sorry but you are once again incorrect. You seem to think that the "a-" prefix is something added within the English language. It is not. It is fully part of the Greek language system and all Engish words with such a construction are directly and completely taken from (ancient) Greek. The suffix "-ism" has in meaning never been connected to the prefix "a-", because they have never been part of the same lingual construction.

To further quote the Consise Oxford Dictionary on the origin of the word:
"-ORIGIN C16: from Fr. athÚisme, from Gk atheos, from a- 'without' + theos 'god'.".

It is, in fact the philosophy of "without god", i.e. the philosophy that there is no god.

It is borrowed from the Greek language system. I am under no illusions whatsoever.

Like many things borrowed from Latin and Greek, we use them as linguistic modifiers for words. Atheism is a newer word than theism, and we used our borrowed prefix to create a new word from the old one. If atheism somehow signified what you think it does, it would be unique in the English language as the only word to use the a- prefix in such an extreme way. All the rest use it in a dispassionate fashion to denote an absence. We have other ways of constructing a word that would mean an opposition to the belief in God, or a belief that no gods exist.

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 12:00 AM
Whats Islam ? an Ideology
Whats Judaism ? an Ideology
Whats Christianity ? an Ideology
whats Atheism ? an Ideology

Not really, since an ideology is a collection of ideas which inform the actions of a group of people. It barely fits for atheism.

But, suppose I grant you that one and say it is an ideology: how would that have anything to do with whether or not the word means "a belief that no Gods exist"?

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:00 AM
Just to clarify, which genocide are we talking about?
The approximately 60 million deaths for which Joseph Stalin was responsible. Most of these were of religious people as he was motivated by his atheist ideology.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 12:01 AM
Not really, since an ideology is a collection of ideas which inform the actions of a group of people. It barely fits for atheism.

But, suppose I grant you that one and say it is an ideology: how would that have anything to do with whether or not the word means "a belief that no Gods exist"?
Ideology = belief

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 12:02 AM
The approximately 60 million deaths for which Joseph Stalin was responsible. Most of these were of religious people as he was motivated by his atheist ideology.

Well that's ok then.

Well the genocide is not ok, but your point is ok.

Genocide bad.

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 12:04 AM
Ideology = belief

No it doesn't. You should look it up.

Although, I say that and a lot of words are simply misused. I bet you if you look up "dialogue" on dictionary.com or wherever, it'll say it's a conversation between two or more people. That's wrong, because again the prefix "dia-" means "through" (as in diameter), and we're not using the prefix "di-" for "two".

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 12:04 AM
Well that's ok then.

Well the genocide is not ok, but your point is ok.

Genocide bad.
Im assuming you thought he meant Hitler ?
Who wasnt an Atheist ?

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:04 AM
It is borrowed from the Greek language system. I am under no illusions whatsoever.

Like many things borrowed from Latin and Greek, we use them as linguistic modifiers for words. Atheism is a newer word than theism, and we used our borrowed prefix to create a new word from the old one. If atheism somehow signified what you think it does, it would be unique in the English language as the only word to use the a- prefix in such an extreme way. All the rest use it in a dispassionate fashion to denote an absence. We have other ways of constructing a word that would mean an opposition to the belief in God, or a belief that no gods exist.

You are wrong. Atheism, as can be seen in the quoted text, is literally derived from a Greek word "atheos". The concept is not something loaned from the Greek system, it is something copied from the Greek vocabulary.

You have also not presented us with any significant evidence for your claims, contrary to the evidence I presented, which is conclusive, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

I'd also like to point out that it does, in fact, point out an absence, but not the absence of the philosophy or "ism", but of the "theos". Would you be so kind as to actually read through my posts next time instead of stopping halfway through? Thank you.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 12:06 AM
No it doesn't. You should look it up.

Although, I say that and a lot of words are simply misused. I bet you if you look up "dialogue" on dictionary.com or wherever, it'll say it's a conversation between two or more people. That's wrong, because again the prefix "dia-" means "through" (as in diameter), and we're not using the prefix "di-" for "two".

how can you say the dictionary is wrong in regards to Atheism, but right in defining belief and ideology.. ?

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 12:09 AM
You are wrong. Atheism, as can be seen in the quoted text, is literally derived from a Greek word "atheos". The concept is not something loaned from the Greek system, it is something copied from the Greek vocabulary.

You have also not presented us with any significant evidence for your claims, contrary to the evidence I presented, which is conclusive, whether you'd like to admit it or not.

I'd also like to point out that it does, in fact, point out an absence, but not the absence of the philosophy or "ism", but of the "theos". Would you be so kind as to actually read through my posts next time instead of stopping halfway through? Thank you.

This is an irrelevance.

"Athiesm", the movement we understand today", does not come straight from the Greek "atheos". These are separate concepts. "Atheos" was used as a means of scolding those who did not believe. It was a term of abuse.

"Atheism" is not as old as the Greek "atheos". The first people to call themselves "atheists" did so in the 1700s. There's a gulf of time there.

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 12:10 AM
Im assuming you thought he meant Hitler ?
Who wasnt an Atheist ?

Hitler was born and raised Christian, but I'm not sure he remained Christian.
And I wad going to say that Mau killed something like 25 million people. Though I don't know what his religious views were.

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 12:13 AM
This is an irrelevance.

"Athiesm", the movement we understand today", does not come straight from the Greek "atheos". These are separate concepts. "Atheos" was used as a means of scolding those who did not belief. It was a term of abuse.

"Atheism" is not as old as the Greek "atheos". The first people to call themselves "atheists" did so in the 1700s. There's a gulf of time there.

Ism's are beliefs.

Though I think lightrey is dead wrong when he says atheism is a religion. It is definitely a religious belief.
Any belief about religion is technically a religious belief.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:14 AM
This is an irrelevance.

"Athiesm", the movement we understand today", does not come straight from the Greek "atheos". These are separate concepts. "Atheos" was used as a means of scolding those who did not belief. It was a term of abuse.

"Atheism" is not as old as the Greek "atheos". The first people to call themselves "atheists" did so in the 1700s. There's a gulf of time there.

I'm sorry but now you're just missing the point. The word is literally taken from Greek and -ism is added to it. It is the "ism" of "atheos", not the "a" of "theism". That is what's wrong with your reasoning.

According to your logic a word such as "amobile" would be a valid English word, since according to you the "a-" suffix is an English lingual "operator" if you will. However, as you and I very well know, it is not. This is because "mobile" is taken from Latin and Latin does not have said construction and the "a-" suffix is in fact not part of the English lingual construction either.

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 12:15 AM
how can you say the dictionary is wrong in regards to Atheism, but right in defining belief and ideology.. ?

I didn't have to look it up. I know the difference between "ideology" and "belief" without doing so. I was half-joking, and you may well find the correct distinction if you check, really.

I'm happy to say that any dictionary which solely defines "atheism" as "a belief that gods do not exist" is wrong. Someone who is an atheist might believe that gods simply don't exist, as an additional aspect, but it's not how the word breaks down.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:17 AM
I didn't have to look it up. I know the difference between "ideology" and "belief" without doing so. I was half-joking, and you may well find the correct distinction if you check, really.

I'm happy to say that any dictionary which solely defines "atheism" as "a belief that gods do not exist" is wrong. Someone who is an atheist might believe that gods simply don't exist, as an additional aspect, but it's not how the word breaks down.

So basically it's your word against the dictionary regarding the meaning of words? I think I'm gonna stick with the dictionary. Especially since I see the giant flaw in your reasoning.

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 12:20 AM
I think the word you probably want is secular.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 12:20 AM
I didn't have to look it up. I know the difference between "ideology" and "belief" without doing so. I was half-joking, and you may well find the correct distinction if you check, really.

I'm happy to say that any dictionary which solely defines "atheism" as "a belief that gods do not exist" is wrong. Someone who is an atheist might believe that gods simply don't exist, as an additional aspect, but it's not how the word breaks down.
Dude, Atheism is the belief in the disbelief in the existence of God..
I could say that Islam is not a belief but something superior to everything else..
But thats just it, Islam is the belief of so and so
Christianity is the belief in so and so
Atheism is the belief in the disbelief in the non-existence of God..
Its common sense

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 12:25 AM
I'm sorry but now you're just missing the point. The word is literally taken from Greek and -ism is added to it. It is the "ism" of "atheos", not the "a" of "theism". That is what's wrong with your reasoning.

According to your logic a word such as "amobile" would be a valid English word, since according to you the "a-" suffix is an English lingual "operator" if you will. However, as you and I very well know, it is not. This is because "mobile" is taken from Latin and Latin does not have said construction and the "a-" suffix is in fact not part of the English lingual construction either.

Actually we mix up Latin and Greek in all kinds of horrible ways which no doubt make Mediterranean etymologists crazy.

"Theism" doesn't appear in English until the late 1500s-early 1600s. Then we get "atheism", later on; you're looking at late 1600s for the first uses of that in English. It's a separate chain of appearance, a convergent evolution in linguistics.

I still don't think you can explain how your "a-the-ism" - "without-god-belief" - has the meaning "the belief that gods do not or cannot exist". It doesn't stack up.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:30 AM
Actually we mix up Latin and Greek in all kinds of horrible ways which no doubt make Mediterranean etymologists crazy.

"Theism" doesn't appear in English until the late 1500s-early 1600s. Then we get "atheism", later on; you're looking at late 1600s for the first uses of that in English. It's a separate chain of appearance, a convergent evolution in linguistics.

I still don't think you can explain how your "a-the-ism" - "without-god-belief" - has the meaning "the belief that gods do not or cannot exist". It doesn't stack up.

We do so when combining two words, not prefixes or suffixes.

That is irrelevant. The term is still taken from Greek (through French). The word "atheism" is not derived from the English "theism", but from the Greek "atheos" (though likely inspired by "theism" as it was constructed in the same manner regarding "theos").

Because it is NOT a-the-ism. The suffix "a-" is not part of the English language. It is not an operator in the English language, it is a recurring pattern in the English language among words taken from the (ancient) Greek language, because in that language it is a prefix.

In the English language the stem of the word "atheism" is not "the", it's "athe", because, once again for clarification, "a-" is not an existing prefix in the English language.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 12:31 AM
We do so when combining two words, not prefixes or suffixes.

That is irrelevant. The term is still taken from Greek (through French). The word "atheism" is not derived from the English "theism", but from the Greek "atheos" (though likely inspired by "theism" as it was constructed in the same manner regarding "theos").

Because it is NOT a-the-ism. The suffix "a-" is not part of the English language. It is not an operator in the English language, it is a recurring pattern in the English language among words taken from the (ancient) Greek language, because in that language it is a suffix.

In the English language the stem of the word "atheism" is not "the", it's "athe".
Oh Come ooooon..
This has nothing to do with the language, its Common sense :D

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 12:32 AM
Dude, Atheism is the belief in the disbelief in the existence of God..
I could say that Islam is not a belief but something superior to everything else..
But thats just it, Islam is the belief of so and so
Christianity is the belief in so and so
Atheism is the belief in the disbelief in the non-existence of God..
Its common sense

The belief in the disbelief that God exists? You said it twice, so I assume you meant that, but it's meaningless to me.

It's this relentless need to make it into a belief system in order that it can be tamed that I find fascinating. The best you can do is shoehorn the word "belief" into it, and if you succeed then that's as close as atheism will ever come to any of the religions. There is nothing else in common, and there's a huge difference between a belief related to a supernatural experience and a belief of any other kind. It's a philosophy at best, and even that's pushing it, since many atheists spend absolutely no time at all thinking about gods.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:46 AM
The belief in the disbelief that God exists? You said it twice, so I assume you meant that, but it's meaningless to me.

It's this relentless need to make it into a belief system in order that it can be tamed that I find fascinating. The best you can do is shoehorn the word "belief" into it, and if you succeed then that's as close as atheism will ever come to any of the religions. There is nothing else in common, and there's a huge difference between a belief related to a supernatural experience and a belief of any other kind. It's a philosophy at best, and even that's pushing it, since many atheists spend absolutely no time at all thinking about gods.
speculation
false
needs clarification
other

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 12:48 AM
First of all any acts committed by man are not caused by whatever ideologies he does or does not prescribe too, however; Hitler was a roman catholic. Not an atheist. But, if you want to go there, let's look at all of the atrocities committed by not only Christians, but all religions and compare them to those done by atheists. You may come up with what? Stalin? Kim Jong-il? Fine, but you do realize that they themselves were God figures right? It's called a state religion and even if what you said was true about Hitler (it's not), he too would fall into that category. However, no, I'm not suggesting that all Christian's are psychotic murderers just because a few were. That's clearly a Christian thing to do, not an atheist one.

I was raised in a Southern Baptist family and I can attest that there are good people of faith, but I can also attest that even those good people are blindly misguided, unfortunately. I wouldn't call it outright stupidity, but I would call it choosing ignorance for comfort, which is fine fyi. An atheist does not wake-up in the morning and think of ways to be a better Atheist, he just is that by not believing in any deity. It isn't something you choose to be. Christians seem to have a problem with this concept of people choosing to be things; first it was homosexuality and now it's Atheists. Haha, I wouldn't be surprised if tomorrow they start telling people they didn't choose to have red hair.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:50 AM
First of all any acts committed by man are not caused by whatever ideologies he does or does not prescribe too, however; Hitler was a roman catholic. Not an atheist. But, if you want to go there, let's look at all of the atrocities committed by not only Christians, but all religions and compare them to those done by atheists. You may come up with what? Stalin? Kim John-Ill? Fine, but you do realize that they themselves were God figures right? It's called a state religion and even if what you said was true about Hitler (it's not), he too would fall into that category. However, no, I'm not suggesting that all Christian's are psychotic murdered just because a few were. That's clearly a Christian thing to do, not an atheist one.
​lolwut?

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 12:52 AM
First of all any acts committed by man are not caused by whatever ideologies he does or does not prescribe too, however; Hitler was a roman catholic. Not an atheist. But, if you want to go there, let's look at all of the atrocities committed by not only Christians, but all religions and compare them to those done by atheists. You may come up with what? Stalin? Kim John-Ill? Fine, but you do realize that they themselves were God figures right? It's called a state religion and even if what you said was true about Hitler (it's not), he too would fall into that category. However, no, I'm not suggesting that all Christian's are psychotic murdered just because a few were. That's clearly a Christian thing to do, not an atheist one.
We are well past that argument..

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:53 AM
We are well past that argument..
Not to mention that said discussion is against forum rules.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 12:53 AM
I wasn't here to get my word in on the subject, past or not. I think I still have a right to comment on it. Do me a favor. Read a book that isn't the Bible.

Just saying.

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 12:54 AM
We do so when combining two words, not prefixes or suffixes.

That is irrelevant. The term is still taken from Greek (through French). The word "atheism" is not derived from the English "theism", but from the Greek "atheos" (though likely inspired by "theism" as it was constructed in the same manner regarding "theos").

Because it is NOT a-the-ism. The suffix "a-" is not part of the English language. It is not an operator in the English language, it is a recurring pattern in the English language among words taken from the (ancient) Greek language, because in that language it is a suffix.

In the English language the stem of the word "atheism" is not "the", it's "athe", because, once again for clarification, "a-" is not an existing prefix in the English language.

I know no online source is going to be enough for you, and if I mention any online encyclopaedia you'll just laugh, but I have read the history of atheism and how the word came to be used in the English language many times in very carefully researched books. I don't think I still have any of those books in my home to be able to direct you to them, but I am certain of those dates.

I'm not even sure exactly what we're arguing over anymore. It began with your insistence that "atheism" does not denote a person (or a way of thinking) without gods, as I think, but strictly denotes a denial of the existence of gods. Since then, you've gone heavily into the Greek definitions, which is fine by me because I'm doing the same thing (from a different angle). Again, we're on a meaning of "a way of thinking which is without gods" or "a belief that is without Gods", and again I'm not too fussed about which of those you use. I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate how this works for an outright rejection of religion, and I don't think you can do it. It's got this long history of nastiness, first in Greek culture going way back, and then briefly in Northern Europe, before it's willingly taken on as a personal description for oneself.

Baron D'Holbach, 1772: "All children are born atheists, as they have no idea of God". This kind of reference is really important for seeing why people decided to adopt the term for themselves and how they viewed the position; "no idea of God", and not enemies of the idea.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:54 AM
I wasn't here to get my word in on the subject, past or not. I think I still have a right to comment on it.
Well you actually don't since it's against the rules. Though it should not have been brought up in the first place.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 12:55 AM
I wasn't here to get my word in on the subject, past or not. I think I still have a right to comment on it.
Do whatever you want, buddy
You`ll either get a warning or bashing from an angry Christian for that post..

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 12:56 AM
The irony of you egging this on for three pages and then saying it's against the rules amazes me.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 12:57 AM
I know no online source is going to be enough for you, and if I mention any online encyclopaedia you'll just laugh, but I have read the history of atheism and how the word came to be used in the English language many times in very carefully researched books. I don't think I still have any of those books in my home to be able to direct you to them, but I am certain of those dates.

I'm not even sure exactly what we're arguing over anymore. It began with your insistence that "atheism" does not denote a person (or a way of thinking) without gods, as I think, but strictly denotes a denial of the existence of gods. Since then, you've gone heavily into the Greek definitions, which is fine by me because I'm doing the same thing (from a different angle). Again, we're on a meaning of "a way of thinking which is without gods" or "a belief that is without Gods", and again I'm not too fussed about which of those you use. I'm still waiting for you to demonstrate how this works for an outright rejection of religion, and I don't think you can do it. It's got this long history of nastiness, first in Greek culture going way back, and then briefly in Northern Europe, before it's willingly taken on as a personal description for oneself.

Baron D'Holbach, 1772: "All children are born atheists, as they have no idea of God". This kind of reference is really important for seeing why people decided to adopt the term for themselves and how they viewed the position; "no idea of God", and not enemies of the idea.

Fantastic, but it is of no relevance when the word came to be used in the English language, it is its origin that matters and its origin lies in the Greek language, through French. It is a common misconception (though not that common that the meaning has changed) that the meaning of "atheism" is the lack of a belief in a god, instead of the belief in the lack of a god, which would explain why your friend Baron D'Holbach made this error. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you are and always have been, in fact, wrong.


The irony of you egging this on for three pages and then saying it's against the rules amazes me.
We were discussing the meaning of the word "atheism" not religion itself.

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 12:59 AM
speculation
false
needs clarification
other

A belief with a supernatural basis is in the realms of magic. That's something which fires the brain in an entirely different way to an intellectual examination which ends with "nope".

It's not a gigantic speculation to say that "many atheists spend absolutely no time at all thinking about gods", but if you like I'll modify it to "many atheists spend very little time at all thinking about gods", and then it's watertight.

There's no point in simply telling me that it's false that there's nothing else in common between an atheist position and a religious one. Show me the ways.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 12:59 AM
The irony of you egging this on for three pages and then saying it's against the rules amazes me.
We were discussing the context of the word "Atheist" while you posted about something else of no relevance and somewhat offending..

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:00 AM
Atheism is not a belief structure and it's irrelevant if you think it is. Your opinion doesn't change simple fact; I'd advise you to take that advice on the God problem as well.

What do you actually think the message behind the Assassin's Creed games is ? I'm curious. Nothing is true. Everything is permitted. Certainly not a Christina morality. Also, isn't is blasphemy for you to play a game that discounts your religion all together?

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 01:01 AM
Atheism is not a belief structure and it's irrelevant if you think it is. Your opinion doesn't change simple fact; I'd advise you to take that advice on the God problem as well.
There we go.. now your argument is relevant..

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:02 AM
A belief with a supernatural basis is in the realms of magic. That's something which fires the brain in an entirely different way to an intellectual examination which ends with "nope".

It's not a gigantic speculation to say that "many atheists spend absolutely no time at all thinking about gods", but if you like I'll modify it to "many atheists spend very little time at all thinking about gods", and then it's watertight.

There's no point in simply telling me that it's false that there's nothing else in common between an atheist position and a religious one. Show me the ways.
Fantastic.

That does weaken your point significantly though, as your claim is rather meaningless if it doesn't represent a majority.

It was erroneous because of your flawed definition of the word "atheist".

D.I.D.
03-15-2012, 01:03 AM
Fantastic, but it is of no relevance when the word came to be used in the English language, it is its origin that matters and its origin lies in the Greek language, through French. It is a common misconception (though not that common that the meaning has changed) that the meaning of "atheism" is the lack of a belief in a god, instead of the belief in the lack of a god, which would explain why your friend Baron D'Holbach made this error. I'm sorry to disappoint you, but you are and always have been, in fact, wrong.



Baron D'Holbach wrote that at exactly the time that atheism, as a reclaimed term, was gaining ground.

You still can't show how "atheism", unlike every other modified word with the prefix a- where it does mean "without", "absence", or "lack of", suddenly means a rejection of religion, and is I've said before I don't think you can. You've had many chances, and it's midnight now so I'll leave it there.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:04 AM
Also, what is it with this guy and the word fantastic? That's like the worst way to be condescending I've ever seen in my life.

Except, ironically, for **** like "I'll pray for you."

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 01:08 AM
Also, what is it with this guy and the word fantastic? That's like the worst way to be condescending I've ever seen in my life.

Except, ironically, for **** like "I'll pray for you."
There`s nothing wrong with it..

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:09 AM
You can state your opinion too. That's nice.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:09 AM
Baron D'Holbach wrote that at exactly the time that atheism, as a reclaimed term, was gaining ground.

You still can't show how "atheism", unlike every other modified word with the prefix a- where it does mean "without", "absence", or "lack of", suddenly means a rejection of religion, and is I've said before I don't think you can. You've had many chances, and it's midnight now so I'll leave it there.

It doesn't mean "a rejection of religion". Let me put this clearly:

The word "atheism" is derived from the ancient Greek word "atheos", meaning "absence of god", because it's constructed of the prefix "a-" meaning "without" and "theos" meaning "god". The word "atheism" is therefore a so-called "ism" (meaning philosophy) of "atheos", thus it's the philosophy of the absence of god. It is not an English word constructed a-the-ism, because, as noted before, "a-" is not an existent prefix in the English language, rather it is constructed athe-ism.

Ergo, to use a mathematical analogy with parentheses, it is to be read as (a-the)-ism, (without-god)-philosophy, the philosophy of the absence of god.

UrDeviant1
03-15-2012, 01:09 AM
Also, what is it with this guy and the word fantastic? That's like the worst way to be condescending I've ever seen in my life.

Except, ironically, for **** like "I'll pray for you."

I think he was genuinely fascinated by what he had to say.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:11 AM
No dude, atheism is derived from the word theism, which is the belief in a god. A-THEISM would be the LACK of a belief in a God. You can say "Comes from this in greek." But, it's irrelevant what words once meant as we apply our own definition to words all the time. (though I'm still right, using your Greek derivation) Ask any atheist and they will tell you they do not believe in God. Who says "I believe there is no God." If someone does say that their still not prescribing to a belief system. They're saying a God could exist, but it's unlikely. And it's completely impossible for it to be the Christian God based on mountains of evidence to the contrary.

See how that works?

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:14 AM
No dude, atheism is derived from the word theism, which is the belief in a god. A-THEISM would be the LACK of a belief in a God.

See how that works?

Again, "a-" is NOT an existent prefix in the English language. You cannot construct words like that in English. According to your logic, the word "abreath" would be an existent word in the English language, referring to the lack of breaths.

The word is actually constructed athe-ism. The Greek word it is derived from, "atheos", is constructed a-the-os.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:17 AM
You're not being reasonable, which is typical. Atheism is not a belief system. Definition aside, atheists do not wake-up in the morning with the intention of being an atheist. They do no go to a Church and practice not believing in God. They do absolutely nothing that other actual belief systems do. So even if by your logic it is a belief system, you will even admit that it's different from the belief systems of any religion anywhere in the world. Now, if that's the case, why call it a religion or belief system at all? If not to try and bring them down to the level of the religious just for spite.

Which is really quite immature.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:20 AM
You're not being reasonable, which is typical. Atheism is not a belief system. Definition aside, atheists do not wake-up in the morning with the intention of being an atheist. They do no go to a Church and practice not believing in God. They do absolutely nothing that other actual belief systems do. So even if by your logic it is a belief system, you will even admit that it's different from the belief systems of any other religion anywhere in the world.
You're wrong. People who do not believe in a god or gods, nor have a disbelief in a god or gods are called agnostics. Those are the people you are referring to. It is a sad truth that many agnostics think they are called atheists, because they misinterpreted the meaning of the word.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 01:20 AM
You're not being reasonable, which is typical. Atheism is not a belief system. Definition aside, atheists do not wake-up in the morning with the intention of being an atheist. They do no go to a Church and practice not believing in God. They do absolutely nothing that other actual belief systems do. So even if by your logic it is a belief system, you will even admit that it's different from the belief systems of any religion anywhere in the world.

It's amusing how people of faith fight over little details like this, honestly. "You do believe in something!" :I believe in a lot of things; not the utter absurd, however.":
That was not necessary..
I find your attitude annoying and you elevating Atheists above believers absurd..

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:27 AM
You're wrong. People who do not believe in a god or gods, nor have a disbelief in a god or gods are called agnostics. Those are the people you are referring to. It is a sad truth that many agnostics think they are called atheists, because they misinterpreted the meaning of the word.

I know what an agnostic is. I am one.

Acrimonious_Nin
03-15-2012, 01:27 AM
As a psyche major I enjoy watching first hand at what I learned in class...and that is the perseverance effect lol ...fascinating >_> ..please continue :)

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:28 AM
I know what an agnostic is. I am one.

Yes, but are you aware that that means you are not an atheist?

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:29 AM
Yes, smart one. I was defending atheists--because it's highly offensive for many people without faith to be bunched with Christians, quite frankly.

Seriously guys, what do you think the meaning of these games is? These are secular games designed that way for a reason.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 01:30 AM
Seriously guys, what do you think the meaning of these games is? These are secular games designed that way for a reason.
and that reason is ?

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:32 AM
Yes, smart one. I was defending atheists--because it's highly offensive for many people without faith to be bunched with Christians, quite frankly.

Seriously guys, what do you think the meaning of these games is? These are secular games designed that way for a reason.

Not entirely. They in many ways even advocate religious belief. However, they criticize the concept of religious authority (among other things).

Apirka
03-15-2012, 01:33 AM
Considering that the meaning of words can relatively easy change through the way it is used, I'm a bit curious why the same can't apply to atheism. If enough people that would technically be called agnostic by current definitions used the word atheist to describe themselves, wouldn't atheism eventually be the right word to use?

I'm not saying it is the right word and all this etymology stuff is rather interesting, but I don't see why the same thing that happened to other words can't happen to atheism simply because of its roots.


Yes, smart one. I was defending atheists--because it's highly offensive for many people without faith to be bunched with Christians, quite frankly.

Seriously guys, what do you think the meaning of these games is? These are secular games designed that way for a reason.

I really don't care about which word is the right one to describe myself with, but while I'm certainly not religious what you're saying is also offensive. Christians aren't all terrible people not atheist would want to have anything to do with. Nor are people of other religions. Generalizations are not cool.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 01:34 AM
Not entirely. They in many ways even advocate religious belief. However, they criticize the concept of religious authority (among other things).
Wait, Rey I wanna hear his/her "reason" as put..

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 01:35 AM
Hahaha guys...
I'm not a theist nor an atheist.
I just DON't KNOW if there's a higher power, just like everybody else.
But you have to admit that people who believe in this:

http://images.gwales.com/images/fullsize/9781859940679

and this:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_f5m7s0RssIU/TDybjqeBOuI/AAAAAAAABSc/VzGhmHPRHs0/s1600/family_guy_god.jpg

and this:

http://covers.openlibrary.org/b/id/502441-L.jpg

And this:

http://www.publictechnology.net/files/siftmedia-publictech/images/flat-earth.jpeg

And this:

http://lh5.ggpht.com/--rqwoWfy1F0/Sv-mhnrXFDI/AAAAAAAAAqQ/hzMCNn7v3Es/istockphoto_4782643-heaven-hell-sign.jpg

I find this one rather funny because people are always praying at the sky, but remember, there is no up or down we're on a spinning ****ing planet in a gigantic universe;)

And this:

http://conference.syncweekly.com/wp-content/uploads/sync_conference/2011/03/a.judgment.of_.Gd_.jpg


and This:

http://www.prayerthoughts.com/prayerthoughts/Spiritual_Warfare/images/pt1015_serpent_searching_for_adam_eve_hg_wht (1).gif

And so on.....Not even to speek about the stuff they don't believe in (Evolution, Dinosaur fossils and so on.)

are pretty **** naive :).

Instead of someone who just doesn't believe in god.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:36 AM
Yes, but he is using technical definitions to try his hardest to put atheists into one little horrifying box.

PS: If you think these game advocate any sort of religious belief, you're more deluded than I previously thought quite frankly.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:37 AM
Yes, but he is using technical definitions to try his hardest to put atheists into one little horrifying box.
Oh, I'm not trying to generalize atheists or anything. All I'm really saying is that atheists do technically have their own religious belief.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:39 AM
You're not trying to generalize atheists?


Sry, that's not true. Athe´sm isn't the lack of belief in god, it's the belief that there is no god at all.

I'd also like to point out that the greatest genocide in history was carried out by an atheist.

What does that prove? So? The actual greatest genocide in the world's history was carried out by a Roman Catholic. And a guy with red hair killed a bunch of kids the other day in a Middle School. What the **** is the point of this statement if not to generalize all atheists as being not moral?

I find it fitting your from the Netherlands; your country is highly nonreligious. It's also got one of the lowest murder rates in the world. Guess what country has one of the highest? My country. Guess what the percentage of people that are religious (Christian) is in my country?

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 01:40 AM
Oh, I'm not trying to generalize atheists or anything. All I'm really saying is that atheists do technically have their own religious belief.

They have their own beliefs, not religious beliefs.

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 01:42 AM
Yes, but he is using technical definitions to try his hardest to put atheists into one little horrifying box.

PS: If you think these game advocate any sort of religious belief, you're more deluded than I previously thought quite frankly.

True, just read the codex pages in AC2 :o.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:42 AM
You're not trying to generalize atheists?

I wasn't. I was simply pointing out that things like wars, genocides or violence in general can be caused just as easily by atheist bigots as they are by theist bigots.

(I'm sorry if I didn't make that clear enough)

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 01:43 AM
Am i the only one who finds it annoying that this guy is basically saying "Atheists are better than believers, because believers are stupid" ?

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:44 AM
You didn't. It came off to me as if you were saying that its co-dependent on someone's belief or lack thereof, which it pretty absurd, but if you're telling the truth about this and it's not just a pitiful attempt to cop-out then I apologize and digress from this debate altogether, because that's what I took issue with above all else. There are moral atheists and amoral atheists and there are amoral Christians and moral Christians. As long as we agree on this then that's all I care about at this point, bro. Again, sorry for the confusion, taking you for your word.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:48 AM
You didn't. It came off to me as if it were co-dependent on someone's belief or lack thereof, which it pretty absurd, but if you're telling the truth about this and it's not just a pitiful attempt to cop-out then I apologize and digress from this debate altogether, because that's what I took issue with above all else. There are moral atheists and amoral atheists and there are amoral Christians and moral Christians. As long as we agree on this then that's all I care about at this point, bro. Again, sorry for the confusion, taking you for your word.
I truly apologize for not making that clear enough. I can see now how provocative that statement must've looked.

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 01:48 AM
@ Lightrey

Codex page 20 AC2:

"I have studied the ancient pagan faiths that came before this more recent obsession with a single, divine creator. They seem to have focused more on the fundamental forces at play in the world around us and less on arbitrary moral rules...
The sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. The tides ebb and flow. Grass grows, withers, dies, and then in time, emerges from the ground once more. The air turns warm then cools and back again. Some hidden energy keeps us fitted to the ground and pulls us back when we attempt to leave it.
Each of these movements was represented before by a god or goddess. Each force given face, but recognized as something distinct and powerful. Which is not to say there were not connections between these forces – a pantheon of individual spirits – of rules. Invisible hands guiding the progress of the world around us.
And so here there was an attempt to categorize, study, explain, and understand the way things work – even if it was flawed. But no more. Now we are asked to succumb to a far more simplified explanation. How naive to believe there might be a single answer to every question. Every mystery. That there exists a lone divine light which rules over all. They say it is a light that brings truth and love. I say it is a light that blinds us – and forces us to stumble about in ignorance.
I long for the day when men turn away from invisible monsters and once more embrace a more rational view of the world. But these new religions are so convenient – and promise such terrible punishment should one reject them – I worry that fear shall keep us stuck to what is surely the greatest lie ever told."


:)

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:52 AM
God I love Assassin's Creed 2.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:53 AM
@ Lightrey

Codex page 20 AC2:

"I have studied the ancient pagan faiths that came before this more recent obsession with a single, divine creator. They seem to have focused more on the fundamental forces at play in the world around us and less on arbitrary moral rules...
The sun rises in the morning and sets in the evening. The tides ebb and flow. Grass grows, withers, dies, and then in time, emerges from the ground once more. The air turns warm then cools and back again. Some hidden energy keeps us fitted to the ground and pulls us back when we attempt to leave it.
Each of these movements was represented before by a god or goddess. Each force given face, but recognized as something distinct and powerful. Which is not to say there were not connections between these forces – a pantheon of individual spirits – of rules. Invisible hands guiding the progress of the world around us.
And so here there was an attempt to categorize, study, explain, and understand the way things work – even if it was flawed. But no more. Now we are asked to succumb to a far more simplified explanation. How naive to believe there might be a single answer to every question. Every mystery. That there exists a lone divine light which rules over all. They say it is a light that brings truth and love. I say it is a light that blinds us – and forces us to stumble about in ignorance.
I long for the day when men turn away from invisible monsters and once more embrace a more rational view of the world. But these new religions are so convenient – and promise such terrible punishment should one reject them – I worry that fear shall keep us stuck to what is surely the greatest lie ever told."


:)
That doesn't mean that the developers, who are of various religious faiths, believe that it is a lie. Rather, I think the message in this is that people should acknowledge that it is at the very least theoretically possible that it was all a lie or a series of misinterpretations.

You also mustn't forget that in the series several things that are regarded scientific facts are in fact wrong.

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 01:55 AM
God I love Assassin's Creed 2.

Yeah me too :).
Let's hope AC3 will be even better.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 01:56 AM
Precisely, it's not just suggesting you should challenge religious beliefs, but all beliefs. Thus, nothing is true.

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 01:58 AM
You also mustn't forget that in the series several things that are regarded scientific facts are in fact wrong.

That's the beautiful thing about science, it always evolves and always keeps searching for better answers and solutions.

LightRey
03-15-2012, 01:59 AM
Precisely, it's not just suggesting you should challenge religious beliefs, but all beliefs. Thus, nothing is true.
xD
Precisely. Even scientific facts, no, especially scientific facts must be doubted (because that lies in the nature of science, I'd even say "scientific fact" is a contradiction).

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 02:00 AM
Precisely, it's not just suggesting you should challenge religious beliefs, but all beliefs. Thus, nothing is true.

True, also other stuff that's going on in the world like are our leaders really our leaders? That kinda stuff.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 02:01 AM
Science is always questioning itself anyway and changing, that's what is wonderful about science--I think it's important for people to make themselves aware of things and I think that's an important moral presented by these wonderful games.

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 02:02 AM
xD
Precisely. Even scientific facts, no, especially scientific facts must be doubted (because that lies in the nature of science, I'd even say "scientific fact" is a contradiction).

I agree, everything should be questioned until it's 100% proven :).
But to say scientific fact is a contradiction, no.
Some scientific facts are really 100% true thus facts.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 02:04 AM
Science is always questioning itself anyway and changing, that's what is wonderful about science--I think it's important for people to make themselves aware of things and I think that's an important moral presented by these wonderful games.
The games are not biased..
Do not imply that these games are designed to open the eyes of the believers to the "truth"

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 02:06 AM
It is the game's intention to make people question what they believe, that is obvious. Obviously religion is a major one, but it could also be scientific, social or political. Religion is just the obvious one.

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 02:06 AM
The games are not biased..
Do not imply that these games are designed to open the eyes of the believers to the "truth"

in a subtle way, yes.
Like the codex pages, the glyph puzzles, the historical events to make clear people should always look back at history and understand that it always repeats itself.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 02:08 AM
It is the game's intention to make people question what they believe, that is obvious. Obviously religion is a major one, but it could also be scientific, social or political. Religion is just the obvious one.
The game`s intention is to make us question every form of control.. be it Political, Scientific, Social or religious..

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 02:09 AM
The game`s intention is to make us question every form of control.. be it Political, Scientific, Social or religious..
This.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 02:12 AM
Repeating exactly what I said with different wording, right on. lol What's the issue then?

De Filosoof
03-15-2012, 02:15 AM
The threads subject about the knights templar being the good guys:p.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 02:16 AM
Repeating exactly what I said with different wording, right on. lol What's the issue then?
I was more specific with my wording, your sentence was a tad bit general regarding Religion, Politics, science etc..

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 02:21 AM
So because I stated religion first? You can put them in any order with any capitalization, I don't mind. I agree with you, by the way, that's what is great about these games!

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 02:24 AM
So because I stated religion first? You can put them in any order with any capitalization, I don't mind. I agree with you, by the way, that's what is great about these games!
No, its not because you mentioned religion first..
I mentioned religion first in my second Post..
I didnt even pay attention to the order of placement nor Capitalization..

Lonesoldier2012
03-15-2012, 04:17 AM
The game`s intention is to make us question every form of control.. be it Political, Scientific, Social or religious..

Everything you know. everything you've been brought up to believe. it's a lie.

~S16

LightRey
03-15-2012, 11:12 AM
I agree, everything should be questioned until it's 100% proven :).
But to say scientific fact is a contradiction, no.
Some scientific facts are really 100% true thus facts.
Well not entirely. They're only 100% true based on the axioms of science itself. We could hold a long and complex discussion on whether that should have an impact on believing it, but technically it is not 100% proven fact.

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 11:15 AM
It's very difficult for anything to be proven 100%.
99.99999999999999....% at best.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 11:25 AM
It's very difficult for anything to be proven 100%.
99.99999999999999....% at best.
Even after that, some things are out of place and are discarded and hidden from the world simply because they dont "fit"

xryanx28
03-15-2012, 02:22 PM
You're very, very ill-informed. The Templars even IRL were war criminals given pardon to kill, often innocent, anyone who opposed the Christian regime. Muslims are not necessarily the bad guys simply because they are not Christian and vice versa . If you played the game you would understand the game denounces all religion as fiction, which by the way, is closer to reality than I think a lot of people who play these games are aware. The post really ruined my afternoon actually; I hate when people make me feel like there is no hope for human intelligence and understanding of things outside of whatever little bubbles they live in; sadly I expect outrage when not all of the Americans in ACIII are good guys.



>Implying Atheism is a religion or a belief at all.

Atheism is simply the lack of the belief in God. Nothing more. It's the not the belief there is no God; it's the lack of belief through reason and lack of evidence that there is one. Basically, don't put Atheists in the same realm as Theists as it's really quite insulting. Otherwise, I agree with you.

Templars IRL were war criminals ?????? They were the soldiers of Christ . Where are you getting this info that they were criminals ?

xryanx28
03-15-2012, 02:25 PM
Read this . Now im not saying that this is 100% true because you can always fake anything you want on the internet . But this is the general knowledge we know about the Knights Templars

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knights_Templar

SaintPerkele
03-15-2012, 03:32 PM
They were the soldiers of Christ .
I really, really, really hope you're trolling.

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 03:35 PM
Yes, because somebody who fights in the name of Jesus, can't possibly be a bad person.

xryanx28
03-15-2012, 03:48 PM
Yes, because somebody who fights in the name of Jesus, can't possibly be a bad person.


Correct , unless your Kony

xryanx28
03-15-2012, 03:49 PM
I really, really, really hope you're trolling.



Nope not trolling . Whats your opinion on this ?

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 03:51 PM
Correct , unless you Kony

........... Go away.


Again...

xryanx28
03-15-2012, 04:06 PM
........... Go away.


Again...


I was kidding about that . Why dont you stop making spam post and actually say something to prove me wrong please . Saying Go away again does nothing but up your post counts

LightRey
03-15-2012, 04:26 PM
I was kidding about that . Why dont you stop making spam post and actually say something to prove me wrong please . Saying Go away again does nothing but up your post counts
You do realize that their order was disbanded because of heresy, right?

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 04:47 PM
Templars IRL were war criminals ?????? They were the soldiers of Christ . Where are you getting this info that they were criminals ?

You can't really be so naive? Yes, they were hired to be the so-called "soldiers" of Christ, however; many of them were known mercenaries and many more were actual prisoners who were given pardons in agreement to join the Templars.

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 05:48 PM
I was kidding about that . Why dont you stop making spam post and actually say something to prove me wrong please . Saying Go away again does nothing but up your post counts

Sorry, but is there some secret ceremony is Christendom that makes someone un able to do any wrong?
Christians are people just like anyone else, in fact I'd say they're more selfish.
And people who fight for Christ are also just like everyone else, except with added violence.

I'm guessing you also think all Muslims are Evil and like to eat babies with their Saturday sacrilege?

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 07:05 PM
Sorry, but is there some secret ceremony is Christendom that makes someone un able to do any wrong?
Christians are people just like anyone else, in fact I'd say they're more selfish.
And people who fight for Christ are also just like everyone else, except with added violence.

I'm guessing you also think all Muslims are Evil and like to eat babies with their Saturday sacrilege?
How did you know our secrets ???? 0_0

Lonesoldier2012
03-15-2012, 07:46 PM
Sorry, but is there some secret ceremony is Christendom that makes someone un able to do any wrong? No. people get our beliefs twisted.
Christians are people just like anyone else, in fact I'd say they're more selfish. Why would you say that?
And people who fight for Christ are also just like everyone else, except with added violence. Christians are the ones who have violence thrown against them i know alot of people that go to Iran and other countries and bring bibles and they could die every single time they go. i read a story yesterday of a man who was executed because he was a Christian in another country.

I'm guessing you also think all Muslims are Evil and like to eat babies with their Saturday sacrilege?

I think this thread should just be closed. the internet isn't mature enough for discussing people's beliefs... i'm gonna go lay down. my head hurts.....

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 08:04 PM
The bit about secret ceremonies was intended as a joke.
I didn't mean every Christian is selfish, but the concept as a whole is a little selfish, being taught to be good so that you can be rewarded with eternal life in heaven, rather than because it's simply the right thing to do.
I'm assuming these Christians who are being attacked are in Muslim countries?
That's got little to do with the other religions being violent, it's more to do with there society, they take religion very seriously, if somebody comes aling trying to convert people, then it's like an insult to their way of life.
Islam is actually not the violent, terrorist doctrine it's made out to be, it just seems that it's more probe to extremism now a days than other religions.

But you're still saying that Christians never attacked anybody? Perhaps the don't go around burning women any more, but the church has been an oppressive force for centuries.

AdamXEve
03-15-2012, 08:06 PM
No, poeple aren't mature enough to accept criticism of beliefs, however; I will agree this forum probably isn't the place for it.

Lonesoldier2012
03-15-2012, 08:40 PM
The bit about secret ceremonies was intended as a joke.
I didn't mean every Christian is selfish, but the concept as a whole is a little selfish, being taught to be good so that you can be rewarded with eternal life in heaven, rather than because it's simply the right thing to do.
I'm assuming these Christians who are being attacked are in Muslim countries?
That's got little to do with the other religions being violent, it's more to do with there society, they take religion very seriously, if somebody comes aling trying to convert people, then it's like an insult to their way of life.
Islam is actually not the violent, terrorist doctrine it's made out to be, it just seems that it's more probe to extremism now a days than other religions.

But you're still saying that Christians never attacked anybody? Perhaps the don't go around burning women any more, but the church has been an oppressive force for centuries.

I know about the joke. but some "Christians" think just because they've been in ministry for some odd years there better then others and that disgusts me.

okay on the selfish thing that's fair enough.

yes the man that was executed was in a Muslim country. i never said other religions were more violent. there are some Muslims and Indians i know that belief in God and ask me to pray for them and don't want to start trouble. it's the person. like how those crazy people go and suicide bomb an abortion clinic and they say God told them to do it and that's just not true. i do think though that Muslims are raised in a more violent environment and are more prone to do violent things. not to mention all the attacks on Israel. but i should really stop before i offend anyone.

EDIT: Yes i do think the Church is an oppressive force i know some people on this forum and in my life have had problems with the church and are turned off by it. you really have to find the real Christians that don't shove religion down your throat. i know it sounds crazy but i'm a Christian. and i hate religion. i'll pm you a video to try and explain what i mean.

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 08:49 PM
No Muslims aren't raised in a more violent way. That's mainly because those militant Muslims are raised in poorer countries, where it's easier for people to be controlled using religion.

rileypoole1234
03-15-2012, 09:24 PM
No Muslims aren't raised in a more violent way. That's mainly because those militant Muslims are raised in poorer countries, where it's easier for people to be controlled using religion.

Yeah. Also, where they live it's probably easier to do what they do. Those people take religion so seriously. It's really incredible.

I'm not saying that in a bad way though, I wish I could be that serious about religion. Not to the point of killing people, but you know what I mean.

SaintPerkele
03-15-2012, 09:39 PM
Nope not trolling . Whats your opinion on this ?
What I wrote on page 5:

I must admit I didn't read the whole thread, so this might have been said before... But how do hell can you possibly depict the Christian crusaders as good guys and the Saracens as bad guys?
You are either extremely religious to a point where the whole western world would hate you if you were Muslim, or you greatly lack historical understanding.

First of all, "take back the wholy land"? Why would they take it "back"? The land never belonged to Christians. Why would it? Because Jesus was born there? Muslims (which you seem to equalise with Saracens) believe in Jesus Christ as well, although they merely consider him as a prophet instead of God's son. So you can't argue on a religious basis (which is never possible in my opinion anyway, but you seem to be very convinced of Christianity).
On a non-religious basis, the Christians peoples (so French, English and German soldiers in case of the Third Crusade) originated from an entirely different place on earth - mostly Northern Europe, whereas the Saracens mostly descended from the same people Jesus was part of. If you want to say, who the land belongs to - it should belong to those people, who lived there before. In this case - oh snap! - the Saracens.

So Christians at those time believed the same thing you seem to believe - that the Holy Land belongs to the European people because of their Religion. That's why they tried to conquer it. It were the Christians who led the first attacks. It were the Christians who were responsible for the whole conflict. Yes, of course, the Saracens attacked the crusaders as well, but initally merely as a defence. Moreover, the crusaders also robbed a huge amount of art, noble metals and so on. So if you really want to depict someone as the bad guys, it's rather the crusaders.

To finish my post, one last thing: The crusaders were not depicted as the bad guys in AC, neither were the Saracens. Did you really not notice that both of them had Templars within the range of their highest members? In fact, Templars from both sides even teamed up in the game. When you went to Acre, you could listen to herolds taking about the cruel things Saracens have done. When going to Damascus, it's the exact opposite. That is what was so great about AC1 - a war and the Assassins in the middle of it, without taking side for any party. I hope that will be similar in AC3.

Jexx21
03-15-2012, 09:49 PM
In-game, the Templars are strictly non-religious. They don't believe in gods, period.

In-game, the Assassins accept people of various faiths into their ranks.

I'm a Christian, and I felt like multiple people in this topic have insulted me, as they loop me in to a group of people I wouldn't even call true Christians. Those people that would kill Muslims if they got the chance? They aren't true Christians.

The thing is, even though I hold my beliefs strongly, I'll never be 100% sure of what I believe until I die.

Christians have a strong stigma against them. Just like America.

It sickens me.

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 09:54 PM
I don't have much of a problem with Christians. It's the catholic church I don't like.

Lonesoldier2012
03-15-2012, 10:52 PM
No Muslims aren't raised in a more violent way. That's mainly because those militant Muslims are raised in poorer countries, where it's easier for people to be controlled using religion.

i said they are usually raised around more violent areas. not that they were raised to be violent. though some are.

Lonesoldier2012
03-15-2012, 10:54 PM
please lock this topic. please.

frogger504
03-15-2012, 11:11 PM
please lock this topic. please.

I second this.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 11:46 PM
I second this.
Indeed.. This is becoming ugly..
I`v been insulted about 3 times now..

itsamea-mario
03-15-2012, 11:56 PM
Indeed.. This is becoming ugly..
I`v been insulted about 3 times now..

You're ugly and you smell.

Make that 4 times.

Assassin_M
03-15-2012, 11:57 PM
You're ugly and you smell.

Make that 4 times.
You hurt my feelings..INFIDEL DIE !!!

Poodle_of_Doom
03-16-2012, 01:56 AM
http://trialx.com/curetalk/wp-content/blogs.dir/7/files/2011/05/diseases/Locked-1.gif

This should help....

Jexx21
03-16-2012, 02:00 AM
I once ate peanut ****er.

'twas much rejoicing