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View Full Version : were the Founders hypocrites



Radman500
03-08-2012, 01:35 AM
i see this debate alot in all types of forums

there are guys that attack the founders and guys that defend the founders

i see lots of great arguments


the founders, that fought for freedom and liberty..... allowed Slavery

they wanted "freedom" but they had slaves

Acrimonious_Nin
03-08-2012, 01:48 AM
umm that is pretty much the history of the world..." if I do it its right, if you do it your a tyrant and pray to god there is an assassins about " lol

tjbyrum1
03-08-2012, 02:33 AM
Back in those days though, Slavery was 'okay' and was not necessarily considered as 'people', but rather as property. No racism intended.

So why would the Founders want to 'free' property? See what I am saying here? In their minds and ideals, Slaves were nothing but property, not people.

Also, don't forget that Slavery was a big part of the nation at the time. They grew crops, which helped the economy of the nation, cause slaves weren't payed for their work. Why would the Founders want to take away that?

frogger504
03-08-2012, 02:36 AM
Pretty much yeah. Not any more or any less than people in this day.

Just like in modern day, they used words to manipulate the people to do their bidding. Same as any leader in any place.

kriegerdesgottes
03-08-2012, 02:42 AM
No one is perfect and they were totally aware of the contradiction in those days. Ben Franklin and Lafayette both openly called for its end but they were also aware of the underdeveloped country and the need they had for slavery along with the fact that they just didn't want to deal with the issue that Lincoln eventually had to address which was slavery and taking other people's property. They knew it wouldn't last forever and they knew the country would have to deal with it eventually and it basically festered and was kind of one of those lurking issues in American politics until the 1850s when it became a bigger and bigger issue and people began actually discussing it again and the country began to split on their different opinions of it and abolitionists were growing in number and then in the 1860's the country finally decided to confront the issue head on and it turned into the most terrible bloody war ever fought on American soil. In my opinion they should have just faced the problem right away and gotten it over with. We should have never ever started and it should have never happened but everyone and every nation makes mistakes. The important thing is to learn from those mistakes and do the right thing even if half your country decides to secede from the union over it lol.

LightRey
03-08-2012, 10:06 AM
Really you could say the same about how we speak of torture and slavery being bad and then look at how we treat animals. I can imagine that in a few centuries people will look at us in the same way and consider us to have been hypocrites.

Jamison_J_B
03-08-2012, 10:22 AM
Slavery is just plain wrong, no matter the excuse. The act has been going on since 3,000 or so years. People are all equal, no need for such things. In this respect, yes, the United States founding fathers were hypocrites.

eagleforlife1
03-08-2012, 10:23 AM
Really you could say the same about how we speak of torture and slavery being bad and then look at how we treat animals. I can imagine that in a few centuries people will look at us in the same way and consider us to have been hypocrites.

Exactly. I am sure this will be the case.

gmoney8869
03-08-2012, 10:49 AM
Back in those days though, Slavery was 'okay' and was not necessarily considered as 'people', but rather as property. No racism intended.

So why would the Founders want to 'free' property? See what I am saying here? In their minds and ideals, Slaves were nothing but property, not people.



This is absolutely not true. Sure, if you go back a few hundred years, then Slavery might have been pretty much accepted. But by the time of the American Revolution, Enlightenment thinking and philosophy had already become common place, and Slavery was widely regarded as evil. FYI, we are still today living in an Enlightenment-based society. Modern values were already becoming more widely held. Obviously major value changes take a long time to establish themselves, but it was not something nobody thought about. Many of the Founders, including the original American geniuses Jefferson and Franklin, despised slavery.


Really you could say the same about how we speak of torture and slavery being bad and then look at how we treat animals. I can imagine that in a few centuries people will look at us in the same way and consider us to have been hypocrites.

I agree. Values will continue to change, and we will eventually be seen as the barbarians. Just like we think people who lived 200, or really even 50 years ago were un-enlightened, so will the people in the future see us.

EnXess
03-08-2012, 12:09 PM
Well, no, not really. They won and were therefore right, that's how history works. They didn't want freedom, they wanted power. The Colonists had no power in Parliament and this lack of power caused the war, this war gave them power and thus whatever they masqueraded their cause as (freedom, liberty, etc..) was merely to rally the troops. How else is war justified? Would thousands die in wars if they really knew the causes or would they instead die for 'freedom'. Take the recent middle-east wars, do you legitimately think they were any threat to us? You really think events like 9/11 can be prevented by pissing more people off? it was vulnerability, revenge, anger that caused that war. It wasn't oil, it wasn't freedom, it was because the US felt vulnerable and they felt that loss of power.

I digress, they weren't hypocrites because they likely didn't believe in 'freedom' as everyone now seems to interpret it. The best thing they introduced was secularism but look at how that's been ignored.

frogger504
03-08-2012, 12:14 PM
Well, no, not really. They won and were therefore right, that's how history works. They didn't want freedom, they wanted power. The Colonists had no power in Parliament and this lack of power caused the war, this war gave them power and thus whatever they masqueraded their cause as (freedom, liberty, etc..) was merely to rally the troops. How else is war justified? Would thousands die in wars if they really knew the causes or would they instead die for 'freedom'. Take the recent middle-east wars, do you legitimately think they were any threat to us? You really think events like 9/11 can be prevented by pissing more people off? it was vulnerability, revenge, anger that caused that war. It wasn't oil, it wasn't freedom, it was because the US felt vulnerable and they felt that loss of power.

I digress, they weren't hypocrites because they likely didn't believe in 'freedom' as everyone now seems to interpret it. The best thing they introduced was secularism but look at how that's been ignored.
This 13 times.

Have you seen the Anti-Jap posters?

(RELEVANT)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-lQ3BrzQO4

eagleforlife1
03-08-2012, 01:48 PM
Well, no, not really. They won and were therefore right, that's how history works. They didn't want freedom, they wanted power. The Colonists had no power in Parliament and this lack of power caused the war, this war gave them power and thus whatever they masqueraded their cause as (freedom, liberty, etc..) was merely to rally the troops. How else is war justified? Would thousands die in wars if they really knew the causes or would they instead die for 'freedom'. Take the recent middle-east wars, do you legitimately think they were any threat to us? You really think events like 9/11 can be prevented by pissing more people off? it was vulnerability, revenge, anger that caused that war. It wasn't oil, it wasn't freedom, it was because the US felt vulnerable and they felt that loss of power.

I digress, they weren't hypocrites because they likely didn't believe in 'freedom' as everyone now seems to interpret it. The best thing they introduced was secularism but look at how that's been ignored.

I agree with what you say to an extent but I don't necessarily agree that just because they won that it automatically means that they were right.