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View Full Version : Concerned about too much potential American jingoism/patriotism in AC3



RichardHaro
03-05-2012, 08:24 PM
If the game breaks with established AC lore, that the Assassin Brotherhood takes no sides in wars of nationalism and looks down on nationalism itself, and is entirely dedicated to helping the American revolution succeed, I will be very disappointed. I believe Altair at one point said nationalism or countries were just concepts supported by Templars to divide humanity, to keep it oppressed.

The Assassin Brotherhood fighting for a war of nationalism breaks their established ideology and goals, and also takes away the edge from their fight for freedom and justice. If Connor "ignites the revolution" as stated on the AC3 webpage for reasons other than defeating Templars, it will be a disgrace to what the Assassins fight for.

In AC1 the Templars were pulling the strings of both sides, and in all games the assassins have gone after the Templars only. In AC2, Ezio solely went after Templars, no matter what Italian state they were from. In Brotherhood, Ezio went solely after the Borgia. In ACR, Ezio goes after Byzantines and helps the Ottomans only because the former are controlled by a Templar. He has no allegiance to the Ottoman Empire and at the end very almost gets into a fight with their leader, showing Ezio was not fighting for an Empire's interests, but for freedom and truth.

If AC3 breaks with all of this for some fervent patriotic "HELL YEAH, AMERICA. KILL THOSE DIRTY REDCOATS" nonsense I will be very disappointed. The new trailer which shows Connor only killing Brits, combined with Washington's speech at the end, and the "IGNITE THE REVOLUTION" slogan on the website definitely imply that the game will be about Connor fighting a war of nationalism against Britain, rather than going after Templars on both sides.

One of my favourite things about the series is how the Assassins realised that religion is a lie, and that nationalism is a cancer of mankind. I hope it stays that way.

Of course, if the British Empire is directly controlled by Templars and taking America out of their hands assists Assassin goals (recovering pieces of Eden, weakening Templar power globally) I will be completely okay with fighting on the American side.

I can't help but feel the new trailer, without context, is a bit alienating for non-American fans.

SolidSage
03-05-2012, 08:33 PM
Yes, but the Creed itself is flawed, as Ezio discovered. How about Cappadocia, it was a Templar sanctuary, a place they could voluntarily live within the confines of their own rules. Yet the order trashed it and took it from them, invaded basically. Assassins are killers, motivated by personal reasons to fight for the order. And like anything, the Creed itself will evolve and transform over time and is going to be interpreted differently by its members as years and geography put distance betwen the current and inception ideals and views.
Compare modern values to the foundations they are based on, change is inevitable.

Anyway, I love it, The patriot was awesome and Creed in the Revolution is a great excuse for more carnage. Not involving the Creed in historical conflicts would require a loss of a lot of the things that make AC great. I disagree with your main point anyway, AC1 was very culturally and nationally charged, it was at it's core, about repelling the Western Crusaders and their influence. And I enjoyed it for that.

RedSpider
03-05-2012, 08:37 PM
The fact tha Connor was raised by the Mohawks (who sided with the British), but finds himself siding with the Americans shows that it's not going to be as straight forward as you're trying to make out (as does his British/NA nationality). I trust that Ubisoft won't contradict the rest of the franchise for the sake of American Nationalism. Since we don't know the whole story (such as where the loyalites of the Templars lie) it's really too early to speculate due to settings and vague Buzzwords. :)

brick177
03-05-2012, 08:37 PM
Nationalism is the problem inherent with setting a game in this time period. Any "revolution" is going to be about an "oppressed" side revolting against an "oppressing" side. The only way they can avoid it, really, is to keep the games in time periods 400+ years old, where nobody has any real attachments. While I'm sure they will muddy the moral waters in this game, you are definitely fighting with the same objectives as the Americans.

Zrvan
03-05-2012, 08:39 PM
As with all things, the American Revolution is too large a thing that can be viewed from many different angles. A person can't say it was good or bad, because these are simple concepts, too black and white to be of any use.

I feel obligated to point out that Assassins supporting one side or another has never been so black and white, either. They oppose the Templars, and if that requires undercutting one side or the other, I imaigne they'll be glad to do so. Their creed demands it.

Recall that there were both Middle Eastern and European targets in AC1, and Ezio spent far more time killing his fellow Italians than anyone else in the AC2 trilogy, and while he opposed the Byzantines in ACR, he would still fight and kill the Janissaries as well, because they would interfere with his work.

I don't think we're at any risk of the AC team suddenly abandoning the previous themes of AC to cater to a demographic frankly unlikely to identify with previous games in the series. I imagine our new protagonist will have colonial targets to assassinate as well.

Sephrick
03-05-2012, 08:44 PM
Ubisoft has already said "not all British are bad."

I don't understand why people are assuming that just because the game is set in America that hey will abandon their method of story telling to create some shield-banging tribute to a country they're not from.

But the fact remains that the British Empire was tyrannical and trying to force people to remain under their rule. Modern opinions of Americans don't change why the war was fought.

Still, that doesn't change the fact that the Templars will likely be on both sides influencing the war for a larger purpose.

luckyto
03-05-2012, 08:44 PM
As with all things, the American Revolution is too large a thing that can be viewed from many different angles. A person can't say it was good or bad, because these are simple concepts, too black and white to be of any use.

I feel obligated to point out that Assassins supporting one side or another has never been so black and white, either. They oppose the Templars, and if that requires undercutting one side or the other, I imaigne they'll be glad to do so. Their creed demands it.

Recall that there were both Middle Eastern and European targets in AC1, and Ezio spent far more time killing his fellow Italians than anyone else in the AC2 trilogy, and while he opposed the Byzantines in ACR, he would still fight and kill the Janissaries as well, because they would interfere with his work.

I don't think we're at any risk of the AC team suddenly abandoning the previous themes of AC to cater to a demographic frankly unlikely to identify with previous games in the series. I imagine our new protagonist will have colonial targets to assassinate as well.

The concept art shows him rushing a Colonial Officer... so yeah. It will be like AC1... he'll be trapped in the middle of two wars.

RichardHaro
03-05-2012, 08:53 PM
My main point is, that casting the Americans as good and the British as evil is way too black and white, and belongs in a hollywood film targeted at rednecks and not the AC series, for previously discussed reasons. AC has always been a game mired in shades of grey. It never portrays anyone as evil for the sake of being evil. Not even the Templars. If Ubisoft make the British out to be child-killing monsters who hate freedom and justice, while the Americans are portrayed as white knights who can do no wrong - and that's the reason Connor fights, it would be terrible.

The Americans committed a genocide against the natives, hypocritically kept slaves despite Washington in the trailer saying Americans were revolting against their enslavement by the British. It would be a bastardisation of history and go against the theme of moral greyness dispersed throughout AC. The British weren't evil and the Americans weren't sinless angels.

I just hope that the game itself is not as patriotic as the trailer and other media suggest it might be. The trailer reeks of being a jingoistic rewrite of history where America = good and Britain = bad.

RedSpider
03-05-2012, 08:57 PM
But they didn't do that with the other games, why would they do it with this one just because it's set in America? I'm not American, but if I was, I'd be a tad offended... I'm sure AC will show evil on both sides in it's entirity. Even if Connor does show pro-American leanings, if one of them does something wrong, he'll make sure they pay. After all, Connor IS half-Birtish.

The13Doctors
03-05-2012, 08:57 PM
Yes, but the Creed itself is flawed, as Ezio discovered. How about Cappadocia, it was a Templar sanctuary, a place they could voluntarily live within the confines of their own rules. Yet the order trashed it and took it from them, invaded basically. Assassins are killers, motivated by personal reasons to fight for the order. And like anything, the Creed itself will evolve and transform over time and is going to be interpreted differently by its members as years and geography put distance betwen the current and inception ideals and views.
Compare modern values to the foundations they are based on, change is inevitable.

Anyway, I love it, The patriot was awesome and Creed in the Revolution is a great excuse for more carnage. Not involving the Creed in historical conflicts would require a loss of a lot of the things that make AC great. I disagree with your main point anyway, AC1 was very culturally and nationally charged, it was at it's core, about repelling the Western Crusaders and their influence. And I enjoyed it for that.

Ezio did that for his own personal reasons, he broke the Creed, it isn't flawed. He killed innocent people there.

GLHS
03-05-2012, 08:57 PM
Go usa!!

Captain Tomatoz
03-05-2012, 08:57 PM
I got the same vibe from the trailer as OP. I'm hoping for it to be similar to AC1. Where you fight Saracens and Crusaders. I remember the CGI AC1 trailer only killing crusaders though so it could be the same case here ;)

ArD117
03-05-2012, 09:14 PM
Let's not kid ourselves here. A primary reason there is so much outcry towards the setting of the third Assassin's Creed is because it is very close to home. America has an extremely complicated face in the modern world, and its revolution was no different. But what I whole-heartily disdain is the need for people to bash on this integral moment in the history of the frickin world because they have certain feelings for the modern United States. We're talking about different time periods and different mind sets, people.

The American Revolution was a complicated ordeal, involving "colonies", not "states". Your worry that the game is going to be "AMERICA, KILL THE REDCOATS" is unfounded because, in reality, what we call "America" today was then a foundation of complex and ideologically different colonies. NO ONE during that time could even conceive what Americans today call "nationalism", because there was no nation to defend during the revolution. We were in many ways indentured servants to Great Britain by trading our natural wares and participating in wars waged by the powerful nation (see the French and Indian war). And I'm not talking about the aristocracy, I'm talking about the majority of the colonies: farmers and traders who fought, bled, and paid taxes for the empire.

So back then there really wasn't any nationalism, technically that would be impossible since the American colonies were a part of the British Empire. In fact the revolution wasn't some universal consensus among the colonies. You had loyalists to the British who wanted to protect their homes and trade by refusing conflict, you also had the working class who worried that conflict would injure their already fragile holdings in the frontier and would separate themselves from their families. In the colonies, family was essential, and look no further than Connor, our protagonist, to see the effects of family or a lack thereof. He's a product of both the British and the Americans, which makes him the perfect main character in this setting.

Like Connor and his mixed roots, America was caught between two worlds: that of servitude and that of independence. It wasn't easy, not by a long shot. And while there wasn't a nation to defend, what the continentals did defend during the revolution was the pursuit of independence and the concept of a nation. Back then, colonists weren't Americans, but freedom fighters similar to the French resistance. Have a sense of time and condition, yeah? The only difference is that the American resistance was led and organized by aristocrats and experienced military figures who fought for Britain in previous wars. And by the way, Britain's military was a terrifying force during the revolution. Defeat was almost certain at some point due to what was arguably the most effective fighting force in the world at the time (only matched maybe by Napoleon's army who, by the way, lost to the British).

We won because we were resourceful, we drained the British force of its spirit and energy, and the French came to save our asses. Thank god for the French!

My point is that Ubi has a very complicated story to work with and I wouldn't worry about them making sure Connor experiences these complexities. Keep calm and carry on, fellow AC fan.

RichardHaro
03-05-2012, 09:24 PM
Excellent post. I very much hope that the game conveys everything you said.

Was the revolution justified? Probably. Do the lofty ideals that the revolutionaries proclaimed for their reason for independence match up with the Creed? Also, probably.

However, there is another side to the story. Other historical scholars would argue that the revolution was one of greed from the colonists, and that the benevolent ideals espoused by the revolutionaries came second to their real reason for revolting: more money, more land.

Let's not forget the genocide of the native population by the colonists, and that the British wanted to preserve their way of life while the colonists treated them as savages and wanted to take their land.

"Most Native American tribes east of the Mississippi were uncertain about which side, if either, to take during the Revolutionary War, and many remained neutral. A number of tribes, however, feared the Revolution would replace the British--who had worked hard to protect their lands from colonial encroachments--with the land-hungry colonials. As a result, these tribes fought with the British or took advantage of the situation and acted against the colonists on their own. Patriots viewed the Indians as a threat throughout the war. The patriots' use of the term savages for the Native Americans gives a good indication of their overall attitude toward most tribes."
Source(s): http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/presentationsandactivities (http://www.loc.gov/teachers/classroommaterials/presentationsandactivities/)


Is fighting for personal greed, and supporting the genocide of a people in line with the creed? Definitely not.
There are two sides to every story, even the American revolution. I hope the game shows this, instead of ignoring the darker side of the revolution.

orionsrise
03-05-2012, 09:26 PM
The American Revelution is based on more principles then many realize. Elements of religion, enlightenment theory, power, greed, love, respect, hatred, mercy excetra, excetra.. While relizing these facts, it is impossible to have the assassins support the revelution fully yet they may have to for other reasons. We often forget that the world of the assassins participates in and goes beyond the face of the events of the times.Conor may be a patriot because of a simple potential he sees in the revelution, That the promise of America IS NOT in the convening of power of great men, but in the hands of those whose names are not mentioned by history. Maybe once and for all fans, who aren't american can see not just blind patriotism about our history, that we venerate our history because so began the transition from great to small, where every man and eventually every woman, beyond color or creed, can determine thier own destiny, and can arbiter thier own fate.

Hitokiri_Wrath
03-05-2012, 09:27 PM
What really irks me about all of these Anti-American Complaints is that they're always based on "The Assassin's don't take sides" which is dead wrong. Ishak Pasha (The Assassin who owned the ultimate Armor in AC:R) was an Ottoman general, statesman AND Grand Vizier(basically second-in-command) of the Ottoman Empire. The Auditore Family where closely allied with the Medici Family, where Ezio's father assassinated the Medici's opposition.

The Creed "Nothing is True; Everything is permitted" does NOT mean "Everyone is full of garbage so do whatever you feel like". It's funny because Altair spoke about this problem in the Codex in AC2. If you bothered to read it, you'd know that he had a problem while rebuilding the Order that many of his recruits made that misconception. He had to teach them that the Creed is about how there is no single truth and no one has it, so an Assassin has to CHOOSE a truth and live with their choice. Assassins have always been about the freedom of choice. There is no way someone may live without choosing an affiliation, believing otherwise is just naive.

So it is actually perfectly reasonable and within the Assassin's mentality for Connor to choose to fight for the Revolutionaries because their ideals are much like those of the Assassins.

RichardHaro
03-05-2012, 09:28 PM
It will be interesting to see how Ubisoft, and Connor himself (a native) justify taking sides in the conflict when neither side is innocent of horrible atrocities.

I presume it will involve templars. Or just ignore everything the colonists did.

LightRey
03-05-2012, 09:28 PM
What really irks me about all of these Anti-American Complaints is that they're always based on "The Assassin's don't take sides" which is dead wrong. Ishak Pasha (The Assassin who owned the ultimate Armor in AC:R) was an Ottoman general, statesman AND Grand Vizier(basically second-in-command) of the Ottoman Empire. The Auditore Family where closely allied with the Medici Family, where Ezio's father assassinated the Medici's opposition.

The Creed "Nothing is True; Everything is permitted" does NOT mean "Everyone is full of garbage so do whatever you feel like". It's funny because Altair spoke about this problem in the Codex in AC2. If you bothered to read it, you'd know that he had a problem while rebuilding the Order that many of his recruits made that misconception. He had to teach them that the Creed is about how there is no single truth and no one has it, so an Assassin has to CHOOSE a truth and live with their choice. Assassin's have always been about the freedom of choice. There is no way someone may live without choosing an affiliation, believing otherwise is just naive.

So it is actually perfectly reasonable and within the Assassin's mentality for Connor to choose to fight for the Revolutionaries because their ideals are much like those of the Assassins.
Exactly.

Ender_Graff
03-05-2012, 09:30 PM
You state that you fear a break from traditional AC storytelling, fearing possible patriotism. You mention that the revolution will break the goals of the Creed by taking a side. however, in your own argument, you say "Ezio was not fighting for an Empire, but for freedom and truth." That is exactly what the American Revolution is a fight over! The British oppressed and took advantage (Templar-like) of the colonists and stopped them from passing laws or having a say in Parliament, thus ridding them of the ability for truth. Therefor, the Assassins are trying to stop this oppression and division.

If Assassins fight from freedom and truth, as you mentioned, then the American Revolution is a justified conflict for them!

Besides, it has been confirmed by Ubisoft that the game is not definitely sided, for you will fight with Americans, British, and Native American enemies.

rileypoole1234
03-05-2012, 09:32 PM
What really irks me about all of these Anti-American Complaints is that they're always based on "The Assassin's don't take sides" which is dead wrong. Ishak Pasha (The Assassin who owned the ultimate Armor in AC:R) was an Ottoman general, statesman AND Grand Vizier(basically second-in-command) of the Ottoman Empire. The Auditore Family where closely allied with the Medici Family, where Ezio's father assassinated the Medici's opposition.

The Creed "Nothing is True; Everything is permitted" does NOT mean "Everyone is full of garbage so do whatever you feel like". It's funny because Altair spoke about this problem in the Codex in AC2. If you bothered to read it, you'd know that he had a problem while rebuilding the Order that many of his recruits made that misconception. He had to teach them that the Creed is about how there is no single truth and no one has it, so an Assassin has to CHOOSE a truth and live with their choice. Assassins have always been about the freedom of choice. There is no way someone may live without choosing an affiliation, believing otherwise is just naive.

So it is actually perfectly reasonable and within the Assassin's mentality for Connor to choose to fight for the Revolutionaries because their ideals are much like those of the Assassins.

That makes perfect sense, but that doesn't mean we won't be killing any Revolutionaries. Like ACR, we kill guards on both sides.

RichardHaro
03-05-2012, 09:35 PM
You state that you fear a break from traditional AC storytelling, fearing possible patriotism. You mention that the revolution will break the goals of the Creed by taking a side. however, in your own argument, you say "Ezio was not fighting for an Empire, but for freedom and truth." That is exactly what the American Revolution is a fight over! The British oppressed and took advantage (Templar-like) of the colonists and stopped them from passing laws or having a say in Parliament, thus ridding them of the ability for truth. Therefor, the Assassins are trying to stop this oppression and division.

If Assassins fight from freedom and truth, as you mentioned, then the American Revolution is a justified conflict for them!

Besides, it has been confirmed by Ubisoft that the game is not definitely sided, for you will fight with Americans, British, and Native American enemies.

You are completely correct. However, I would point you to my other post, where I said that all history is contested, and many would see the colonists as genocidal maniacs who revolted against the Empire because they wanted more money.

Of course, I'm not saying that's true. Like EVERYTHING, it's a mix of both and up for debate! The debate is the greyness I love, and I just hope Ubisoft at least make a nod to the atrocities committed by the colonists, don't portray the British as evil stereotypical moustache twirling hollywood charactertures, and make Connor realise that both sides have an evil side to them that goes against the Creed. He may ultimately chose to support the colonists due to a promise of a better future, or to thwart the templars, but I hope the game doesn't ignore this moral dillema. I hope the game is not black and white, where the american colonists are not portrayed as heroes who can do no wrong.

Hitokiri_Wrath
03-05-2012, 09:38 PM
Honestly, I feel like it might be more of an AC:R kind of deal. Connor might work closely with Ben Franklin and George Washington, but not FOR them. So if you're trying to run away from a British Patrol you pissed off, a Revolutionary patrol will start fighting the British(and vice versa).

Ender_Graff
03-05-2012, 09:39 PM
I'm glad we have come to an agreemtn then. Also, I am pretty sure that Connors family/tribe was murdered by Colonists. Look at the second paragraph in this link.
http://www.g4tv.com/thefeed/blog/post/721351/assassins-creed-3-details-leak-gameplay-characters-settings-weapons-and-more-revealed/

If this is true, then I'm sure Connor will want some revenge on the people who did the crime.

ArD117
03-05-2012, 09:39 PM
I totally agree with both of you. RichardHaro, if what you describe isn't expressed in the game I would see it as a disservice to American history. Being an American myself and with mixed roots, I can tell you my ancestors did not take kindly to the Native Americans. The French and Indian War also complicated things because, once the Revolution came along, sides were dramatically shifted. The reason why Native Americans sided with the British was mainly to, as you said, protect their livelihood and abide by the treaty signed after the French-Indian War. They had a home to protect, after all.It's true that some Native Americans fought for the colonials but this number was hardly substantial. And I do not at all condemn them for siding with the British because it was the best option for them. But they were indeed a threat during the war and they didn't exactly have the purest of intentions either. Any modern Native American will tell you that they had their own internal conflicts among tribes to deal with, and this involved land, power, and greed. But this gave the colonials no excuse to come in and take their land. But then again, this was originally at the command of the British...see how complicated this gets?

I really think Connor will simply go his own path. If that means, as onionsrise said, eventually siding with the Continentals, well so be it. He will be doing whatever satiates his need for vengeance and freedom.

Eziolala
03-05-2012, 09:44 PM
I was a little worried that Connor only killed British in the trailer, but as Tony6593 pointed out, it was like that with the first AC trailer and we fought and killed both Saracens and Crusaders. In the GI article it was mentioned that there were Templars on both sides, so I'm not too worried. I believe Ubisoft with show the complexity of it all. I do hope there is a conversation that points out the hypocrisy of wanting to be free while having slaves. I know it won't change anything in history as slavery continues much long after the Revolution, but I think that the issue deserves to be addressed.

E-Zekiel
03-05-2012, 10:03 PM
Read this if you're concerned about too much WEWT AMERICA:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/661144-Those-of-you-that-think-America-is-going-to-be-glorified-in-AC3-did-you-play-AC-B

luckyto
03-05-2012, 10:12 PM
In the first concept art, he's bumrushing a Colonial Officer.... it will be like AC1 --- trapped in the middle of two sides with enemies on both and a few allies too.

Ender_Graff
03-05-2012, 10:19 PM
In the first concept art, he's bumrushing a Colonial Officer.... it will be like AC1 --- trapped in the middle of two sides with enemies on both and a few allies too.
I think this is correct.

Jexx21
03-05-2012, 10:27 PM
Can I see that concept art for proof? I haven't seen anything that has Connor facing a continental officer.

eagleforlife1
03-05-2012, 10:35 PM
But they didn't do that with the other games, why would they do it with this one just because it's set in America? I'm not American, but if I was, I'd be a tad offended... I'm sure AC will show evil on both sides in it's entirity. Even if Connor does show pro-American leanings, if one of them does something wrong, he'll make sure they pay. After all, Connor IS half-Birtish.

How can someone be half-British? Great Britain consists of England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland.

Biomedical-Fire
03-05-2012, 10:35 PM
Let's not kid ourselves here. A primary reason there is so much outcry towards the setting of the third Assassin's Creed is because it is very close to home. America has an extremely complicated face in the modern world, and its revolution was no different. But what I whole-heartily disdain is the need for people to bash on this integral moment in the history of the frickin world because they have certain feelings for the modern United States. We're talking about different time periods and different mind sets, people.

The American Revolution was a complicated ordeal, involving "colonies", not "states". Your worry that the game is going to be "AMERICA, KILL THE REDCOATS" is unfounded because, in reality, what we call "America" today was then a foundation of complex and ideologically different colonies. NO ONE during that time could even conceive what Americans today call "nationalism", because there was no nation to defend during the revolution. We were in many ways indentured servants to Great Britain by trading our natural wares and participating in wars waged by the powerful nation (see the French and Indian war). And I'm not talking about the aristocracy, I'm talking about the majority of the colonies: farmers and traders who fought, bled, and paid taxes for the empire.

So back then there really wasn't any nationalism, technically that would be impossible since the American colonies were a part of the British Empire. In fact the revolution wasn't some universal consensus among the colonies. You had loyalists to the British who wanted to protect their homes and trade by refusing conflict, you also had the working class who worried that conflict would injure their already fragile holdings in the frontier and would separate themselves from their families. In the colonies, family was essential, and look no further than Connor, our protagonist, to see the effects of family or a lack thereof. He's a product of both the British and the Americans, which makes him the perfect main character in this setting.

Like Connor and his mixed roots, America was caught between two worlds: that of servitude and that of independence. It wasn't easy, not by a long shot. And while there wasn't a nation to defend, what the continentals did defend during the revolution was the pursuit of independence and the concept of a nation. Back then, colonists weren't Americans, but freedom fighters similar to the French resistance. Have a sense of time and condition, yeah? The only difference is that the American resistance was led and organized by aristocrats and experienced military figures who fought for Britain in previous wars. And by the way, Britain's military was a terrifying force during the revolution. Defeat was almost certain at some point due to what was arguably the most effective fighting force in the world at the time (only matched maybe by Napoleon's army who, by the way, lost to the British).

We won because we were resourceful, we drained the British force of its spirit and energy, and the French came to save our asses. Thank god for the French!

My point is that Ubi has a very complicated story to work with and I wouldn't worry about them making sure Connor experiences these complexities. Keep calm and carry on, fellow AC fan.

Wow ArD117, I couldn't of said it better myself. As you said, what people don't realize is that the United States in the 1700's wasn't a nation and they didn't have a national identity but as British colonists living in a new world. People need to have faith in Ubisoft and in Corey May that ACIII will have a compelling storyline and they're not going to have the game glorify one side and vilify the other. Again ArD117, great point.

freddie_1897
03-05-2012, 10:46 PM
Imagine the let's plays on YouTube, we all know how annoying some of the youtubers are and my worry is that there will be a lot of people using assassins creed as a reason for why America is better than England and that could lead to racism

Black_Widow9
03-05-2012, 10:58 PM
I would just like to remind you all of the disclaimer that has been at the beginning of EVERY Assassin's game-

Inspired by historical events and characters, this work of fiction was designed, developed and produced by a multicultural team of various religious faiths and beliefs.
It is a game and a work of fiction. Please do not use the Forums to spew hate speech of any kind because it will not be tolerated.
Thanks

D173120T
03-05-2012, 11:05 PM
Maybe hes going to kill BOTH Colonials and British?Maybe hes asserting his "native American" roots to preserve his old way of life,fighting against the Forces of the Modern world?look what happened to the indigenous people of America,not a good advert for ANY Country.

Evenesque
03-05-2012, 11:07 PM
You all are reading WAY too much into a minute long trailer. Seriously. Just....wait. Put your pants back on, and wait for something worth speculating about to show up. Trailers aren't meant for this.

thergbcolor
03-05-2012, 11:17 PM
Read this if you're concerned about too much WEWT AMERICA:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/661144-Those-of-you-that-think-America-is-going-to-be-glorified-in-AC3-did-you-play-AC-B

I just replayed AC2 recently E-Zekiel and based on the information in the puzzles (which I'd somewhat forgotten) the list of Templars and Assassins does not seem clear-cut. A very excellent point and reminder on your part. Also, while the Masons have a symbol that's very close to the Assassin Flame, they seem to have a lot in common with Templars. Signs point to a depiction of colonization and revolution that isn't really skewed one way or the other.

The other thing I'm curious about is WHY Desmond is reliving Connor's memories. Does it have to do with gaining access to the Grand Temple, or did something happen in the period of the American Revolution to throw a roadblock in his plans? Perhaps the Americans are Templars trying to find / use this temple and Connor plays a role in hiding it?

HardRtihal
03-05-2012, 11:35 PM
If the game breaks with established AC lore, that the Assassin Brotherhood takes no sides in wars of nationalism and looks down on nationalism itself, and is entirely dedicated to helping the American revolution succeed, I will be very disappointed. I believe Altair at one point said nationalism or countries were just concepts supported by Templars to divide humanity, to keep it oppressed.

The Assassin Brotherhood fighting for a war of nationalism breaks their established ideology and goals, and also takes away the edge from their fight for freedom and justice. If Connor "ignites the revolution" as stated on the AC3 webpage for reasons other than defeating Templars, it will be a disgrace to what the Assassins fight for.

In AC1 the Templars were pulling the strings of both sides, and in all games the assassins have gone after the Templars only. In AC2, Ezio solely went after Templars, no matter what Italian state they were from. In Brotherhood, Ezio went solely after the Borgia. In ACR, Ezio goes after Byzantines and helps the Ottomans only because the former are controlled by a Templar. He has no allegiance to the Ottoman Empire and at the end very almost gets into a fight with their leader, showing Ezio was not fighting for an Empire's interests, but for freedom and truth.

If AC3 breaks with all of this for some fervent patriotic "HELL YEAH, AMERICA. KILL THOSE DIRTY REDCOATS" nonsense I will be very disappointed. The new trailer which shows Connor only killing Brits, combined with Washington's speech at the end, and the "IGNITE THE REVOLUTION" slogan on the website definitely imply that the game will be about Connor fighting a war of nationalism against Britain, rather than going after Templars on both sides.

One of my favourite things about the series is how the Assassins realised that religion is a lie, and that nationalism is a cancer of mankind. I hope it stays that way.

Of course, if the British Empire is directly controlled by Templars and taking America out of their hands assists Assassin goals (recovering pieces of Eden, weakening Templar power globally) I will be completely okay with fighting on the American side.

I can't help but feel the new trailer, without context, is a bit alienating for non-American fans.

I feel a need to respond to the historical aspects of this post, specifically the comments regarding Jingoism and Nationalsim. I have a simple question: If you don't have a nation, how can you have nationalism? If you don't have a regular military, a navy and if the majority of the population are loyal to Great Britain, how can you have jingoism? The American revolution wasn't a war of Nationalism. Nothing could be further from the truth. In fact, American leader tried early and often to seek reconciliation with the British crown and turned to war after negotiations had failed. The American revolution is more a reflection of the fundamental ideals of the Assassin's then it is anything else. Any sort of patriotism would not emerge in America until after the War of 1812 at best.

I can understand you feeling alienated, but that still begs the question, why you weren't alienated when Assassin's Creed placed emphasis on Italian and Middle Eastern cultures. I know that America's recent history is highly controversial and I'm not here to have that America vs The-Rest-of-the-World argument. I think we all need to try to accept this period for what it was: A simple war fought by a people believing in every man's right of freedom and try to set the 200 years of history that would follow the American Revolution aside. If we all do that, then AC3 will be a much more enjoyable experience for everyone, American and non-American.

orange69
03-06-2012, 02:35 AM
I would just like to remind you all of the disclaimer that has been at the beginning of EVERY Assassin's game-

It is a game and a work of fiction. Please do not use the Forums to spew hate speech of any kind because it will not be tolerated.
Thanks

Ok, I live in England and come from a long line of men who served the British army with distinction. The video trailer I was asked to view in an email by your company was from my standpoint nothing but 60 seconds of pure unadulterated visual racism against my nation. Period.

My father served with distinction and honour in the Grenadier Guards for 5 years (redcoats to you guys across the pond) before joining the Guards Idpt. Parachute Regiment and the Special Air Service. If you wish to make videos of *****ery against his fore fathers in a setting that neither side could claim the moral high ground, then you Sir, will attract racists by the score.

What really irks me the most is the timing of this. As I type, my daughter has classmates with no father, my town has women with no husbands. They died fighting Americas war on terror in Afghanistan. We joined that war to help a brother nation out in their time of need, when almost no other nation on earth would commit anything but a token amount of troops to the cause. When respect for this sacrifice and gratitude are due from America, you seek to distort it's young minds with this garbage. Your company may not be American owned, but you court racism for profit with America as your servant, with this exceedingly offensive video.

I will not be buying this game, and furthermore, will cancel my pre orders for other product you make. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this marketing. You do your country and your industry no favour.

Jexx21
03-06-2012, 02:44 AM
Ok, I live in England and come from a long line of men who served the British army with distinction. The video trailer I was asked to view in an email by your company was from my standpoint nothing but 60 seconds of pure unadulterated visual racism against my nation. Period.

My father served with distinction and honour in the Grenadier Guards for 5 years (redcoats to you guys across the pond) before joining the Guards Idpt. Parachute Regiment and the Special Air Service. If you wish to make videos of *****ery against his fore fathers in a setting that neither side could claim the moral high ground, then you Sir, will attract racists by the score.

What really irks me the most is the timing of this. As I type, my daughter has classmates with no father, my town has women with no husbands. They died fighting Americas war on terror in Afghanistan. We joined that war to help a brother nation out in their time of need, when almost no other nation on earth would commit anything but a token amount of troops to the cause. When respect for this sacrifice and gratitude are due from America, you seek to distort it's young minds with this garbage. Your company may not be American owned, but you court racism for profit with America as your servant, with this exceedingly offensive video.

I will not be buying this game, and furthermore, will cancel my pre orders for other product you make. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this marketing. You do your country and your industry no favour.

It isn't racism, both the Continental Army and the Imperial Army are Caucasian.

In any case, this war is in the past. The Crusader Knights were British soldiers also, why is it any different from this?

Jexx21
03-06-2012, 02:51 AM
And for the record, as an American who has ancestors who fought in the army, I wouldn't mind if there were games that involved killing American soldiers during the Revolutionary War, especially since AC3 will let you kill people from the Continental army.

De Filosoof
03-06-2012, 02:56 AM
Maybe this is why Patrice Desilets left the assassins creed project?

Moryarity
03-06-2012, 03:05 AM
I think one point that causes this feeling of "pro-American" aspects of the game, is also the fact, that the cover features the Betsy-Ross American flag. I mean seriously guys....no other cover featured a national symbol of this kind..do you really have to feature this kind of patriotism to sell more games in the US?!?

Calvarok
03-06-2012, 03:14 AM
The Assassin's are not against Nationalism. They just don't want rulers to oppress their people, or try to control them. And since the British are oppressing the Americans, I can understand them being sympathetic.

As to this topic, I find it really annoying that most of the world looks at American nationalism as the basest of sins. Why the **** should this game purposefully not feature any sense of nationalism? There was a lot of it going around at the time, wasn't there? We already know the Assassin's won't join in for any reason other than to kill Templars and facilitate peace. The only nationalists will be the people of the nations, and it makes sense for them to be nationalists.

Assassin's Creed has always painted everything as very grey, and they will here too. If it seems to you that the Americans are shown as people who are just trying to be their own nation, and struggle on against a tough enemy, it's because historically, that's what they WERE. That doesn't make them good or evil, but it certainly makes them the more sympathetic side of this conflict, as opposed to Britain's imperialistic motivations.

Poodle_of_Doom
03-06-2012, 03:16 AM
The only thing I can throw in is the fact that the Americans of that era were fighting for their freedoms,... something strongly supported by the Assassins. You also have to take into account what the Templars, and Assassins wer both becoming. Fast forward to the intro in AC1, where you have Abstergo, and the Assassins falling to peices, trying to save the world. This could be the beginning of that portion of the saga.

pirate1802
03-06-2012, 03:22 AM
Ok, I live in England and come from a long line of men who served the British army with distinction. The video trailer I was asked to view in an email by your company was from my standpoint nothing but 60 seconds of pure unadulterated visual racism against my nation. Period.

My father served with distinction and honour in the Grenadier Guards for 5 years (redcoats to you guys across the pond) before joining the Guards Idpt. Parachute Regiment and the Special Air Service. If you wish to make videos of *****ery against his fore fathers in a setting that neither side could claim the moral high ground, then you Sir, will attract racists by the score.

What really irks me the most is the timing of this. As I type, my daughter has classmates with no father, my town has women with no husbands. They died fighting Americas war on terror in Afghanistan. We joined that war to help a brother nation out in their time of need, when almost no other nation on earth would commit anything but a token amount of troops to the cause. When respect for this sacrifice and gratitude are due from America, you seek to distort it's young minds with this garbage. Your company may not be American owned, but you court racism for profit with America as your servant, with this exceedingly offensive video.

I will not be buying this game, and furthermore, will cancel my pre orders for other product you make. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this marketing. You do your country and your industry no favour.

-___________-"

De Filosoof
03-06-2012, 03:26 AM
Ok, I live in England and come from a long line of men who served the British army with distinction. The video trailer I was asked to view in an email by your company was from my standpoint nothing but 60 seconds of pure unadulterated visual racism against my nation. Period.

My father served with distinction and honour in the Grenadier Guards for 5 years (redcoats to you guys across the pond) before joining the Guards Idpt. Parachute Regiment and the Special Air Service. If you wish to make videos of *****ery against his fore fathers in a setting that neither side could claim the moral high ground, then you Sir, will attract racists by the score.

What really irks me the most is the timing of this. As I type, my daughter has classmates with no father, my town has women with no husbands. They died fighting Americas war on terror in Afghanistan. We joined that war to help a brother nation out in their time of need, when almost no other nation on earth would commit anything but a token amount of troops to the cause. When respect for this sacrifice and gratitude are due from America, you seek to distort it's young minds with this garbage. Your company may not be American owned, but you court racism for profit with America as your servant, with this exceedingly offensive video.

I will not be buying this game, and furthermore, will cancel my pre orders for other product you make. You should be ashamed of yourselves for this marketing. You do your country and your industry no favour.

Dude, WTF.

Poodle_of_Doom
03-06-2012, 03:28 AM
Did I miss something here? I didn't see anything I'd consider racist.

Rycay
03-06-2012, 03:43 AM
Seriously, there's nothing I'd consider racist in the trailer at all. If it's wrong for Ubisoft to use the American Revolution as a setting then it's wrong for Infinity Ward to use World War II as a setting. The American Revolution happened over 230 years ago. I'd say that's all water under the bridge by now. Plus adding the fact that AC is historical fiction.

LoveTwisted
03-06-2012, 03:48 AM
Seriously, there's nothing I'd consider racist in the trailer at all. If it's wrong for Ubisoft to use the American Revolution as a setting then it's wrong for Infinity Ward to use World War II as a setting. The American Revolution happened over 230 years ago. I'd say that's all water under the bridge by now. Plus adding the fact that AC is historical fiction.

My thoughts exactly.
I understand everyone has their own opinion, but the last thing I thought i'd hear would be racism

Calvarok
03-06-2012, 03:52 AM
Maybe this is why Patrice Desilets left the assassins creed project?

The American Revolution setting wasn't even decided on until after he had been gone a long time.

telcontar7
03-06-2012, 04:38 AM
I think we all need to try to accept this period for what it was: A simple war fought by a people believing in every man's right of freedom...
They were fighting for every man's freedom while practicing slavery?

In any case, I hope the story won't be one-sided.

Calvarok
03-06-2012, 04:47 AM
They were fighting for every man's freedom while practicing slavery?

In any case, I hope the story won't be one-sided. I see no reason to doubt it now.
Yeah, things are never truly simple. History textbooks try to make it seem like that, but it's not. AC has always done a good job of showing this. I see no reason to doubt them now.

ArD117
03-06-2012, 05:19 AM
It's sad that some people actually won't buy this game because it's set in America. Have some respect, people! History is history, and the American Revolution was the "shot heard round the world" in the 18th century. It influenced the French Revolution and became an inspiration for many movements to this day, from the Tea Party to the Greek protests. It was a cultural and ideological explosion that would affect the entire world, and I'm not saying this on the basis of nationalism, I'm saying it on the basis of a history lover. Seriously, guys, if you have any qualms about the United States today, put those aside. But respect what the colonies did for the sake of independence and justice, and realize that the war was not "good vs evil". It wasn't even "right vs wrong". What it was, in essence, was a group of like-minded people fighting for a small glimmer of justice against a force that overwhelmed them.

They didn't use Apaches or rocket launchers, nor stealth drones or CIA intelligence. They didn't eat McDonald's burgers and the majority of them, I reckon, were not obese. They didn't say "God Bless the USA". They had no federal government. No giant condos or big mansions, or sports cars or hummers. What they had was a sense of unity, courage, and a bit of stubbornness. Oh, and a few guns.

The war was complicated. Evil existed on both sides.

But if you seriously cannot play a game because it demonstrates something that has existed in the human condition since the beginning of the first civilization of mankind, then you are missing out dearly and I feel sorry for you. Because while you sit there hoping for that Assassin's Creed set in China or the Victorian era, I'll admire those settings while lodging a tomahawk through a soldier's head from a tree in the cold of Boston. And I'll enjoy it, too.

Jexx21
03-06-2012, 05:26 AM
And I'll enjoy climbing up mountains and running through trees.

HardRtihal
03-06-2012, 05:39 AM
They were fighting for every man's freedom while practicing slavery?

In any case, I hope the story won't be one-sided.

Now you're just being silly. This is the very argument I wanted to avoid. Yes, slavery was being practiced in America along with the rest of Europe at the time. I'm not going to go tit for tat with you about this. America was and is the largest and stablest Republic the world had seen in nearly 2,000 years. The ideas implemented by American colonists following the revolutionary war have been adopted by nearly every modern nation in the world. While Americans were implementing the ideals of liberty, republicanism and freedom European aristocrats continued to wage their petty wars and continued to bend the knee to a monarch that held life and death over all of his/her subjects.

Yes, they were fighting for Everyman's freedom. That is why black slaves were offered freedom in exchange for their service in the continental army and that is why able slaves flocked to the American cause. Unfortunately, abolishing slavery as many of the founders had desired would have torn the nation apart then and their. Instead the ideals of the founding fathers were finally implemented in 1865 when slavery was abolished in America.

Now that we have gotten past your petty, resentful argument, we can focus on the real issues of this game like mechanics, graphics and plot devices instead of this bull**** anti-american sentiment that is spawned from some sort of twenty-first century grudge.

Calvarok
03-06-2012, 05:57 AM
It's sad that some people actually won't buy this game because it's set in America. Have some respect, people! History is history, and the American Revolution was the "shot heard round the world" in the 18th century. It influenced the French Revolution and became an inspiration for many movements to this day, from the Tea Party to the Greek protests. It was a cultural and ideological explosion that would affect the entire world, and I'm not saying this on the basis of nationalism, I'm saying it on the basis of a history lover. Seriously, guys, if you have any qualms about the United States today, put those aside. But respect what the colonies did for the sake of independence and justice, and realize that the war was not "good vs evil". It wasn't even "right vs wrong". What it was, in essence, was a group of like-minded people fighting for a small glimmer of justice against a force that overwhelmed them.

They didn't use Apaches or rocket launchers, nor stealth drones or CIA intelligence. They didn't eat McDonald's burgers and the majority of them, I reckon, were not obese. They didn't say "God Bless the USA". They had no federal government. No giant condos or big mansions, or sports cars or hummers. What they had was a sense of unity, courage, and a bit of stubbornness. Oh, and a few guns.

The war was complicated. Evil existed on both sides.

But if you seriously cannot play a game because it demonstrates something that has existed in the human condition since the beginning of the first civilization of mankind, then you are missing out dearly and I feel sorry for you. Because while you sit there hoping for that Assassin's Creed set in China or the Victorian era, I'll admire those settings while lodging a tomahawk through a soldier's head from a tree in the cold of Boston. And I'll enjoy it, too.

I don't need to say anything more than that.

Good job, bruv.

Radman500
03-06-2012, 06:17 AM
Now you're just being silly. This is the very argument I wanted to avoid. Yes, slavery was being practiced in America along with the rest of Europe at the time. I'm not going to go tit for tat with you about this. America was and is the largest and stablest Republic the world had seen in nearly 2,000 years. The ideas implemented by American colonists following the revolutionary war have been adopted by nearly every modern nation in the world. While Americans were implementing the ideals of liberty, republicanism and freedom European aristocrats continued to wage their petty wars and continued to bend the knee to a monarch that held life and death over all of his/her subjects.

Yes, they were fighting for Everyman's freedom. That is why black slaves were offered freedom in exchange for their service in the continental army and that is why able slaves flocked to the American cause. Unfortunately, abolishing slavery as many of the founders had desired would have torn the nation apart then and their. Instead the ideals of the founding fathers were finally implemented in 1865 when slavery was abolished in America.

Now that we have gotten past your petty, resentful argument, we can focus on the real issues of this game like mechanics, graphics and plot devices instead of this bull**** anti-american sentiment that is spawned from some sort of twenty-first century grudge.

i agree.. most of the founders were opposed to slavery.. benjamin franklin was an abolitionism, george washington told his wife, after she died.. to release all the slaves... there were many blacks that fought in the continental army

its just the founders didn't know a way they could free slavery, they didn't know any way they could end it, without splitting the country apart... like it did in the civil war... they just didn't know a way to end it

The13Doctors
03-06-2012, 06:20 AM
I trust Ubisoft to not make things so black and white.

telcontar7
03-06-2012, 06:34 AM
Now you're just being silly. This is the very argument I wanted to avoid. Yes, slavery was being practiced in America along with the rest of Europe at the time. I'm not going to go tit for tat with you about this. America was and is the largest and stablest Republic the world had seen in nearly 2,000 years. The ideas implemented by American colonists following the revolutionary war have been adopted by nearly every modern nation in the world. While Americans were implementing the ideals of liberty, republicanism and freedom European aristocrats continued to wage their petty wars and continued to bend the knee to a monarch that held life and death over all of his/her subjects.

Yes, they were fighting for Everyman's freedom. That is why black slaves were offered freedom in exchange for their service in the continental army and that is why able slaves flocked to the American cause. Unfortunately, abolishing slavery as many of the founders had desired would have torn the nation apart then and their. Instead the ideals of the founding fathers were finally implemented in 1865 when slavery was abolished in America.

Now that we have gotten past your petty, resentful argument, we can focus on the real issues of this game like mechanics, graphics and plot devices instead of this bull**** anti-american sentiment that is spawned from some sort of twenty-first century grudge.

European monarchs and aristocrats are irrelevant to what I said. And obviously only a small number of slaves were offered freedom if you look at the statistics.

And I'm not anti-american, I'm just against portraying either side as strictly good or evil.

Radman500
03-06-2012, 06:42 AM
European monarchs and aristocrats are irrelevant to what I said. And obviously only a small number of slaves were offered freedom if you look at the statistics.

And I'm not anti-american, I'm just against portraying either side as strictly good or evil.

the fact is a good portion of the founders were against slavery, they just didn't know any way to completely eradicate it, during there time.... they had to put faith in future generations..

but to be extremely technical... early americans and slavery is a "grey issue"... the founders, and other americans at that time, were "Men of there time" we can't use our morals, and put it in there existence....

slavery was common as a housefly back then, there morals about it.. are completely different then today's standards.......

they viewed slavery as moral..... we can't say that they were "bad people" cause they believed in something different...

EvanKutz
03-06-2012, 06:50 AM
In Revelations, Ezio did say that liberty, dispite it's inherit issues, is priceless. It was the Templar he killed in the cave that dreamed of a united world order, and said this was the Templar's vision. So it wouldn't be completely strange to see the Assassins fighting for the Colonies in my opoinion.

luckyto
03-06-2012, 04:47 PM
People, get over it. Colonial Officer about to die... see below.

http://s3.gamefreaks.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Assassins-Creed-III-03.jpg

1) Read the disclaimer at the beginning of EVERY game. Have you learned nothing from ALL previous AC games? Assassins will kill bad people on both sides.
2) The Creed is about self-governance and freedom to determine one's own life and beliefs. The American Revolution symbolized that, and helped kick off the French Revolution and others. So yes, there will be some "jingoism" for certain Ideals and Concepts; but frankly, these concepts should be Idealized.
3) At one point in history, the Brits were a bunch of oppressive jerks who used their Navy to rob, steal and plunder countries and lands across the planet. Pretty much like America today. Know your own history. No country or culture is blameless

iNEEDSmeINSIDES
03-06-2012, 09:41 PM
I don't think it is exactly anti-American sentiments that most people are trying to express but the opposite; that from the trailer/screens it seems overly pro-American (or Colonist). There is nothing necessarily wrong with been pro-yourcountry.

I know that the British Empire may not have had all it's peoples best interest at heart all of the time (the same could be said for the current government), but neither side were without their evils and that isn't coming across at the moment.

No doubt though the game will be much more morally grey and show this.

Jexx21
03-06-2012, 11:12 PM
People, get over it. Colonial Officer about to die... see below.

http://s3.gamefreaks.co.nz/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/Assassins-Creed-III-03.jpg



Let's look at the full picture here, shall we?
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/JoshTheDude/Stuff/fullpicture.png

LightRey
03-06-2012, 11:37 PM
Let's look at the full picture here, shall we?
http://www.majhost.com/gallery/JoshTheDude/Stuff/fullpicture.png

Sweet sweet pwnage.

RichardHaro
03-09-2012, 09:59 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9dc45.jpg

More patriotic/jingoist marketing.


No I don't want to fight like an American, I want to fight like an Assassin.

SolidSage
03-09-2012, 10:02 PM
^Think maybe it's referring to the guerilla tactics that won it?

notafanboy
03-09-2012, 10:05 PM
they canīt be serious -.-

metal572432
03-09-2012, 10:11 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9dc45.jpg

More patriotic/jingoist marketing.


No I don't want to fight like an American, I want to fight like an Assassin.

I do not know where you found that photo (I did a reverse image search and found nothing), I'm going to assume it is fake. Also, the latest issue of game informer points out that for one the main focus will not be the revolution, but that the war between the Assassins and the Templars will just cross paths with the revolution, and it also said that not all americans will be good guys and the british will not just be oppressors. So at this point, I think it is safe to assume there is nothing to worry about.

Jexx21
03-09-2012, 10:13 PM
http://i.imgur.com/9dc45.jpg

More patriotic/jingoist marketing.


No I don't want to fight like an American, I want to fight like an Assassin.

That looks cool, is that the press kit or is it the CE?

And the Continental Army was fairly unorthodox, I'd say that their fighting style was pretty similar to the Assassin style when they are charging at their enemies (Assassins aren't always about stealth. Sometimes they charge in. Remember, Assassins aren't always required to be what we depict as a typical assassin.)

tarrero
03-09-2012, 10:36 PM
Meh
Our Assassin is going to kill templars; American, British and native templars alike.......

However, almost every act, man or nation, may have both "good" things and bad "things", thatīs why, even though is clear, at least for now, that washington is a good guy, we may see some is his untold side.